Skeptic's Seminary - Episode 1: The Apocalypse of Peter

[CheesyPoophs]

As for the part about sinners in hell having a chance to get out when they open their hearts to God, THANK YOU!!! That actually makes a lot of sense and answers one of my many questions about God; why would he put you in hell forever and then claim that he's all forgiving?? Thanks again for posting this, I now have my long-awaited answer! =)

[Cootabux]

This was an excellent video. You're the only one I've seen who has discussed this specific text in the Apocalypse of Peter.

I saw this same text myself about 4 years ago. It had the same effect on me as it did on you.

I may be wrong but isn't there something in the same text about jesus standing off from the crucifixion as someone else was being crucified in his place? Are you familiar with this report, have you heard of it before?

Again, outstanding video.

[epaminodas]

@Cootabux thank you. i am not aware of such a report. do you happen to have a link or a reference for it? i'd very much like to look into it.

[Cootabux]

epaminodas

Hey!

No, unfortunately it was some time ago and I don't remember the particulars of it. I will try though, to see if I can find such a reference.

Now it is possible that I actually read the excerpt in my own library of what I have on Peter's Apocalypse. I just don't remember if it was in my material or somewhere else. As I said, I will try to find it for you.

Hope you'll keep up the good work, as I've seen here.

[epaminodas]

@Cootabux awesome thanks! perhaps it was the gnostic apocalypse of peter?

[Cootabux]

#1

epaminodas

Yes, the writings of Peter are extraordinary. I just haven't figured out of he was Schizophrenic or really blitzed on mushrooms or the like.

What's amazing is reading some of the apologetics condemning his writings, as if the gospels, 4 example, were any more credible! All biblical writings come from the mind of man & the choice of books to include or exclude were religio-politically motivated. I'd be willing to bet the church created many, if not most NT books, even manuscripts.

[Cootabux]

#2

epaminodas

1 final thing...have you investigated forgery on the NT? I'm finding some incredible info about what scholars are recently finding, but if you want to see what I call, the "Achilles Heel" of the Judeo-Christian Religion, you must investigate the Ugaritic Texts! It's too much to get into here, but the end result is exposing early Judaism as polytheistic, consisting of the Canaanite gods, which the Jews later demonized & replaced with Yahweh, who was also of Canaanite origin!!

Later

[Cootabux]

epaminodas

Hey!

No, unfortunately it was some time ago and I don't remember the particulars of it. I will try though, to see if I can find such a reference.

Now it is possible that I actually read the excerpt in my own library of what I have on Peter's Apocalypse. I just don't remember if it was in my material or somewhere else. As I said, I will try to find it for you.

Hope you'll keep up the good work, as I've seen here.

[carterfamily8903]

There would be many reasons why this could not be accepted as scripture from God. It contradicts the rest of the Bible. Jesus said He did nothing in secret. He also told His disciples to be very public with anything He had told them in the ear. The Bible teaches it is appointed to man once to die and after this the judgment. To let people out of hell, would be to dishonour the choice they made to hate & reject God, while on this earth. Despite the fact that God provides their every need here.

[Cootabux]

@carterfamily8903

But to send them to hell in the 1st place is evil beyond evil! One does not have to hate god to be sent to hell. Apostasy is the one unforgivable sin. But that doesn't sound just to me.

I think hell is a product of man with the NT. Hell isn't even in the OT. We don't hear about it until after the Babylonian captives were released by Cyrus of Persia! Many scholars think the Hell concept was brought back from Persian Zoroastrian teachings by the Hebrews who were captives.

[carterfamily8903]

@Cootabux Evil is doing what God says not to do, or not doing what God says to do. Hell was not even created 4 Man, but rather 4 Satan & his angels, that follow him. Jesus spoke more about hell than anyone else in the Bible, & He died to save men from it. John chapter 3 spells out very clearly that God has done everything necessary for us to not only escape Hell, but to live with Him for forever. What makes hell, hell, is total separation from the presence of the God who providew our every need.

[Cootabux]

carterfamily8903

Somehow I missed ur responses a year ago, but now that I've found them, I'll respond.

U said; "Evil is doing what God says not to do, or not doing what God says to do" Why, bcuz the book tells u that?

Why does every Xian feel the need to explain that hell was meant for satan & his angels?? So what? The point is, only an evil being would create & send sentient beings to an eternal torment! Besides, it's not true!

God did everything necessary? Yeah, he rigged the game!

[donttrustthebible]

How many different versions zare there of this work? (orthodox i mean, not including the gnsotic texts) Because I recently picked up a bart d ehrman book that was a compilation of apocalpyptic apocrypha and it mentioned that there are 3 versions. the one in the book contianed no refernece to uiversal salvatio that I could find. Is there different drafts of it?

[epaminodas]

yes, there are different orthodox manuscripts. the manuscript containing the universal salvation passage comes form MR James 1924 translation of the Ethiopic Text

google it or go to early xtian writings

scroll down for the translation / summary

[matthewy2j]

Man I was ridiculously shocked when reading the final passage, as a Catholic I was taught that the only salvation is through Jesus the Christ.

Honestly, I believe Universal salvation shows us Gods infinite wisdom and love for us and it actually encourages us to become more pious to a loving God rather than more fearfull of a vengefull God.

[epaminodas]

i completely identify with your astonishment. all orthodox catechisms, spanning the range of denominations state that salvations is through Jesus yet this book, which was deemed worthy of canonical consideration says otherwise. who changed? were teh church fathers wrong? are we wrong? if this book were to be in the canon i dont think i'd be mistaken by saying that orthodox views of salvation would be different.

[NobodySpecial85]

@matthewy2j Universal salvation is not true. 'Prayers of the saints' saving people out of Hell is not true.

Unless one is BORN AGAIN he/she will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

[Cootabux]

@NobodySpecial85

Then why was Universal Salvation accepted, embraced, by the church for the 1st 400 yrs of it's existence? Also, 4 out of the 6 Theological schools during that period taught Universal Salvation!

And why do we see hell only in parts of the NT, not the Old?

[HonestTechnoAtheist]

@Cootabux Hey cootabux have you watched my video yet?

[NobodySpecial85]

@Cootabux

You must be born again. Forget what everyone else says. If you are not born again, you will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[Cootabux]

NobodySpecial85

U said; "You must be born again."

Been there, done that! It's all in your mind.

It's interesting that a righteous & just god, not to mention loving....feels he must use threats of hell to get us to submit. U say god is good & loving. Prove it. How would u know anyway? What does scripture give u that u can claim this god is a righteous & good god? U have nothing! It's how u wish to see it.

Don't quote scripture to me, I was a Xian B4 u were born. U grovel to an evil dictator.

[carterfamily8903]

@matthewy2j The Bible is emphatic that the only salvation is through Jesus Christ. John 14:6 No man comes to the Father, but by me. John 3:18,36. Jesus' death would have been in vain, if there was salvation through any other way. The Bible teaches it is appointed to man once to die, and after this the judgment. The Bible says, there is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof it the way of death. Paul talked of other, false gospels that would come.

[matthewy2j]

Is the book considered heresy?

[epaminodas]

i can't find any information that it was considered heretical. the fact that it was the counter candidate of revelation to be the last book of the canon tells me it wasn't considered heretical - in fact some eastern churches retained it in their canon. what makes it even more puzzling is how it this book was a credible candidate with the teaching it expounded. didn't the church fathers find such teachings "controversial"? oddly enough no one talks about it today.

[fessupjessop]

...in a new understanding and a newer and more personal understanding of the atonement of Jesus Christ is brought forth.

I'd love to discuss this more with you if you'd like. I'm always open to learning other perspectives/points of views.

[fessupjessop]

As for authorship, it may or may not have been written by Peter the Apostle, but it is close enough in that time period that I would have not problem believing that or perhaps another disciple (outside the 12) wrote this.

It's certainly much more straightforward than Revelation (John's Apocalypse) and probably much more reliable as scripture. It certainly puts our punishments as Christians without Christ...

[epaminodas]

fair assessment but this brings up a ton of implications:

- why isnt' it in the canon?

- why did people still read it after it was left out and gave it legitimacy?

- what is true/untrue in it?

- how do we reconcile the question of universal salvation when we have conflicting answers to it?

[fessupjessop]

I don't know why the Apocalypse of Peter was left out, exactly. I think it is an unfortunate decision since many who have claimed to have experienced hell have returned claiming similar experiences to what Peter wrote here.

[epaminodas]

check out my bonus video where all the descriptions are recounted. how many of the people who are believers today would stop believing if those descriptions were dogma? i think that's a legitimate question. - the fact that we don't know why the apocalypse was left out raises even more questions - not only about the canonization process but also about what passed for inspired writings in the early christian community

[fessupjessop]

Where exactly is this claim of universal salvation in the Apocalypse of Peter? I'm looking at the Ethiopian version translated by Bart D. Ehrman. I also checked another version from Akhmin. Neither of them have any mention of a universal salvation.

Personally I believe that all souls will eventually realize the truth (all shall bow and confess that Christ is Lord).

[epaminodas]

It's in the Ethiopic text by MR James

[GradStud28]

There is absolutely no indication that the Apostle Peter wrote the Apocalypse of Peter, and there is equally no reason to date it early enough to allow for the possibility. (As you point out.)

The Apocalypse of John was in fact *not* in the eastern canon until after the beginning of the fifth century (the same is true of the Minor Catholic Epistles). I don't think its literary quality had much to do with its eventual inclusion, but you're right, it's 'higher' lit than the Apocalypse of Peter.

[oombuddah]

Hey, interesting video. Type in answering christianity apocalypse of peter in google. See what you think.

[pillgrimz]

in the Qur'an it says that Allah SWT made it appear to them that they had killed Jesus PBUH but he raised him so it wasent Jesus PBUH on the cross.

[epaminodas]

i'm aware of the muslim perspective; the problem i have with it is that it is just another "faith" claim - no one can prove it so you have to take it on faith

[pillgrimz]

hmmm well seein as the book is the word of Allah/God (swt) and that fact is said in there how can we deny?

[epaminodas]

i just sent you a pm

one question: if your holy book is God's truth revealed to the rest of the world....why isn't this fact self evident (i.e. why doesn't everyone immediately recognize this fact? )

[pillgrimz]

Allah tells us he could have quite easily made all believe...u see life is a test like an exam and you will see what grade you get on that final day....we all know its satanist that run this world..and there spending all there time on attempting to destroy islam that right there says alot.. ..this world is like a big movie with actors and stuntmen to name the obvious osama bin laden aka tim osmam(cia)..unfortunatly falseness like that is enough to lead people astray..

[pillgrimz]

thats were faith comes into play Allah finds those who want to find him..there agebda is to make the world anti islamic...for example when they did a poll in the deep south of the US on why they dont like obama i was expecting to hear'coz his a nigger' but nope they said'becasue i heard his a muslim' they made it ''uncool to be muslim'' lol..and depite all these propanda against islam its still the fastest growing religion on earth and is projected to be the largest by 2025.

[salvationforall1]

I really appreciate your great desire for truth. I also admire your heart's desire for the good of others. In such a selfish world this quality stands out. Take a look at my vids on universalism when you get a chance. Wish you well in your studies my friend.

[epaminodas]

thank you for your kind comments - they mean a lot to me; i subbed to you and i learned a lot from them i didnt know before - keep up the good work :)

[epaminodas]

I already got some stuff for migkiler2 - i left him a couple posts on hsi vids w/ tsumetashi but he never responded

question 1 - you're exactly right - i was first exposed to the flood in gilgamesh in college and when i read it i said "they stole it from the bible" only to find out that it came a long time before the bible. Same w/ Hammurabi's code etc. are christians copycats?

[sockpuppetsfromhell]

He won't respond to me anymore either. After me and Shwanerd crushed him and Sirtheistdrf he's been ignoring me. To his credit, though, he allows my posts. I know he's intelligent, but if we don't show him the error of his ways then he will be even more dangerous than PCS/VFX in the long run. Venomfangx is a moron, this kid is not. Consequently, this kid has to work harder to delude himself. Use that to your advantage.

[sockpuppetsfromhell]

You need to target some of this at "migkillertwo" because he is the new VFX/PCS wannabe and he is a true believer. At the very least you can make him sweat and confuse his backwards ass belief.

[sockpuppetsfromhell]

Question #1 answer: The christian church has a very very long history of simply assimilating that which it cannot annihilate, including holidays (Easter=Eastre, Dec25=Mythras, Halloween/All saints day=Samhain). These dates simply represent an equinox which people have celebrated since before history was recorded. Much of the imagery is plagiarized because it was something cultures at the time could relate to, including the devil's. Even the flood myth is pirated from the Epic of Gilgamesh.