Simon Schama on Acts of Union (1707)

[Dublin353]

Almost half (47%) of the population of Northern Ireland (6 counties )do not see themselves as British but Irish . Northern Ireland Unionists are British in loyalty not Irish . In all Ulster (9 counties ) Irish Catholics are a majority . In Northern Ireland itself 'unionists ' are in strong majorities only in a small area around Belfast which is now a 'majority' Irish nationalist city . Unionists will have to opt for another 'partition, in order to remain 'British' at least politically.

[britishfirstandlast]

@Dublin353 I believe that Catholics are a majority in 7 of the 9 Ulster counties. However the two with Protestant majorities (Antrim and Down) are more densely populated. Furthermore the issue is more hopeful for the Unionists as about 10% plus of Catholics support the Union.

[jaffabuk]

he means James the VII

[christophmahler]

You are right.

The predecessor of William the III. was James the II. of England. But at the same time he held the title of James the VII. of Scotland - as the two kingdoms were in an union of crowns.

[nicknag321]

In my opinion, England kept the scottish, welsh and irish on the right tracks. creating a better environment to prosper and develop, making the island united. so if the union does splitt. i think they have a lot to thank for. not every new country has such good foundations as these do.

[christophmahler]

I agree with You about this view.

But it seems to me also, that the English can expect as much thankfullness from the celtic population of Wales, Scotland and Ireland - as the Japanese can expect warm feelings from the people of Korea.

Railroads, harbours and factories are usually built for commercial profit - not to generally improve infrastructure.

If the result from industrialization is public debt alone - there will be resentment.

[CULAVE]

nicknag321- I totally agree about the preservation of the union but your rhetoric is quite patronising- remember a lot of Scots for instance are pro-union. The Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish are just as British as the English- not little children that need to be 'kept on the right tracks'

[christophmahler]

It seems true to me, that celtic culture on the British Isles can be called archaic - rural and tribal.

The problem might be to value hellenistic culture, which appears sophisticated - urban and commercial as 'superior' than other ways of life.

Obviously urban culture is further developed - but it has flaws itself. Reason can be overripe - and personal ambition - resulting in distinct classes within a nation - can lead to civil war.

[globaltraveller]

Well the Celtic countries of Scotland, Wales and Ireland are more than just Celtic.

But of course you do realise that prior to the Union, Scotland had a far more literate, better educated and much more "outward looking" population than England? For example, Scotland was far more eager to embrace international trade and commerce - it traded heavily with the Low Countries and Scandinavia, well before the Union.

Perhaps not quite the archaic, rural and tribal society.......

[christophmahler]

As far as I have understood, 'Whig history' - like that of the scotsman Thomas Macaulay - tends to ignore the grade of urbanization and trade the Scotish lowlands have reached even before the union - partly because of a lack of documentation of that process.

I daubt, that the Darien Scheme - and the following acts by the parliarment of Scotland - would have been realized, if the ruling class and the society of Scotland would have been fully centered in the Jacobite highlands.

[christophmahler]

But in regard to these considerations - what does the term of a 'Scotish enlightment' refer to excactly - if it was an expression of the urban, 'hellenized' and protestant culture of the lowlands ? Does it refer solely to a martial bluntness, in which a liberal ideology was presented ?

[christophmahler]

I think, it would be interesting, if You could elaborate Your use of the term 'Scotland'.

While I daubt, that any country can achieve autarcy in an age of oversea trade - should there be a constitutional reform of the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth at least - in order to balance regional differences of historical developement and culture ?

[christophmahler]

In history we find a cycle of classical civilizations, overthrown by archaic nomads.

I think, we face a similar question today as in the times of Alexander:

how to keep different cultures working together as one nation ?

[CULAVE]

christophmahler- Glasgow, Edinburgh, Cardiff, Belfast and Aberdeen are not exactly rural. The UK is not the only great country which has diversity within it. The USA and Germany both have distinct regions and sub-divisions too but they are generally accepted as united countries. Its a mistake to presume that anyone not English is against the British union because as it stands most support it. The point I was making to nicknag was that he holds a patronising attitude that the English are the ....

[christophmahler]

While Glasgow was industrialized to a certain level before the union with England - obviously

this tendency in the Scottish Lowlands was accelerated after the union, when English finance and cotton from the colonies in oversea entered the regions of Scotland.

Belfast - and Northern Ireland - is recognized as rather English.

Your focus is on regional diversity in other nationstates - with the intention to emphasize the utility of political union.

[CULAVE]

I am from Northern Ireland and I can assure you people there do not feel English- they do however feel British. The equation of Britishness and Englishness is an all too common mistake.

And in relation to 'English' finance its certainly true the union helped Scotland (after the failure of the Darien Scheme) but roughly 50% of all British imperialists were Scots. Even the founder of the Bank of England.

[christophmahler]

Perhaps You can describe more detailed, what You mean, when You say, that You 'come from Northern Ireland'.

Have Your ancestors spoken Gaelic AND attented the catholic mass - or were they English or Scottish protestants, who were 'planted' in most of the counties of Ulster in the 17th century - on confiscated estates - by the English to prevent Irish uprises ?

This said, to question the state of Northern Ireland as an English colony does not make sense to me.

[CULAVE]

christophmahler- My background is Ulster Protestant which means I am most likely descended from the English and Scottish plantation settlers (as most people are in north Antrim- where I lived for six years) The British Isles at that time were described as 'The Balkans of the Seventeenth Century' and this is a relatively accurate description. As you correctly say, Ulster was innitially intended as an English colony (about the 1590s) but in the chaos of the Wars of the Three Kingdoms cont...

[christophmahler]

You might favour recent movements - like the Alliance Party or the Green Party. But You would represent obviously an exception - and cannot call historically grown realities 'absurd generalizations'.

Do You really think, Irish nationalism in the southern counties is rooted in a misunderstanding of a beneficial - in fact - London-based rule ?

Until You name facts, Your conception of a federal Britain appears to me hardly more than propaganda.

[christophmahler]

«For the Irish Free State it is the six counties of Ulster in Northern Ireland that still afford a British foothold for control (...). Until they form part of one united Ireland, the Irish Free State can never be more than a mutilated economic unit. (...) its geographic integrity is (...) encroached upon. And the six counties, you may be sure, will never form part of a Free State cut off from (...) association with the British Crown.»

(The new British Empire; William Yandell Elliott; 1932)

[christophmahler]

In regard to the Scottish merchants and intellectuals, who agitated not only for a christianity, reduced to personal opinion - but for a social order, based solely on personal profit - I daubt, that these people would have prefered to see themselves as Scottish.

[christophmahler]

They gave up their Gaelic language and adapted to the customs of Renaissance London - much like the Sadducees collaborated with the Romans - and like many people today in Europe or in developing countries seek 'opportunities' by embracing anglo-american concepts and institutions.

But without political participation, there is no other culture than hellenistic eclecticism - or an imperial cult.

[christophmahler]

«On the heraldic design for the coat of arms of the throne of the Empire you will see as supporters the Royal Beasts rampant on either side of the historic symbol. (...) On the right is the Unicorn (...). It is interesting to remember that the Unicorn came into the royal arms through the Scotch crown of the Stuarts.

'As the Lion (...) expresses the British character, (...) the Unicorn (...) expresses the British intellect.' (...)

[christophmahler]

(...) the Unicorn (...) has to achieve an atmosphere of moral piety that will permit the (...) adherence of (...) Irishmen and (...) Boers.»

(The new British Empire, "The lion and the unicorn"; William Yandell Elliott; 1932)

[christophmahler]

The antagonism between urban and rural life was known indeed already in classical times, when Strabo described barbarian nations, split into cities at the coast and shepherds in the mountains - and when a rural life was still considered an ideal of the Roman Republic.

But I believe, it was the accumulation of land and finance during the punic wars and the inability to reflect these changes in constitutional reforms, that finally lead to civil war and the restauration of monarchy.

[christophmahler]

Refering to Germany - I would see it excactly as the most striking example against the unification of different regions into a centralized nationstate. This is reflected in the so called German Question after the decline of the Holy Roman Empire.

And even the United States are mostly seen as governed from Washington and by the stockmarket of New York - than by the population of the states.

[CULAVE]

christophmahler- You make good points but I was just reacting to the language nicknag was using which just encourages divisions. A lot (but not all- I don't generalise) of English unionists really do look down on Scots, Welsh and Irish. I am British but I am not English. England is the largest constituent of the UK but its not the only one and its time people around the world were educated about this. We also need to stop these absurd generalisations concerning the English and the Scots.

[BillDFC]

If the children in our schools were taught our history properly then Scotland's independence would be assured.

[RampantLion1872]

What history would that be Bill? History like the book The Scots and The Union which shatters the myth about being bought and sold for English gold through rational evidence. Maybe if you learned the real history yourself you would not base your political viewpoints on a bastardized version of our history.

[christophmahler]

«(...) dismal portrayals of Scotland's pre-Union economy are certainly not without foundation, although it should be noted that one reason for them has been the anxiety of pro-unionist historians to point to the advantages which were brought by the Union of 1707»

("The Industrial Revolution in Scotland"; Christopher Allan Whatley; 1997)

[christophmahler]

I think, it is valid to call economic and political union a REASONABLE policy.

But to ignore, that the Acts of Union resulted in a loss of self-determination for the Scotish people seems not RIGHTEOUS to me. This union became real not by popular vote, but by members of a parliament, who were tied closely to anglophone culture and trade - especially after the financial losses at the Isthmus of Panama.

[BillDFC]

We're bought and sold for English gold,such a parcel of rogues in a Nation.

Remember Darien.....

[christophmahler]

«What force or guile could not subdue, Thro' many warlike ages

Is wrought now by a coward few, For hireling traitor's wages

The English steel we could disdain, secure in valour's station

But, English gold has been our bane, Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!»

("A Parcel of Rogues"; Robert Burns; 1796)

[christophmahler]

Thank You very much for remembering the lines of Robert Burns - and the Darien Scheme.

The failed attempt of colonizing the isthmus of Panama and constructing a canal - and the following giving way to a political and economical union with the merchants of England - reminded me of what is called nowadays:

GLOBALIZATION.

[maureenOWW]

Yes, it would clearly have been better for England to let you starve to death, or perhaps become a province of France. The english didn't force scotland to bankrupt itself, the fact is you fell victim to a conman and were left completely destitute. If england hadn't stepped in, scotland would have descended into civil war, mass starvation and everything else that goes with in. In short it would have been the worst disaster in scottish history. As it is, after 1707 Scotland became a major power.

[christophmahler]

I am not Scottish - I guess, You intended to reply to BillDFC ?

I doubt, that the English ruling class had an interest in a strong Scottish nationstate at its borders - especially not as a part of french policies.

But I believe, that Your point of a NECESSITY OF INCREASED TRADE TO PREVENT STARVATION is valid - as ancient, rural societies reproduce uncontrolled.

After the Union, Scotland became a market for labour and servicemen - which changed the kingdom into an urban, industrialized region.

[Islandretreat]

maureenOWW, Scotland bankrupt ourselves. BillDFC is an SNP supporter, i'm afraid, they tend to blame the English for everything. Generally speaking, SNP supporters don't give a damn about historical 'fact' and they don't give a damn about how Independence would affect each of us, much like Irish Republicans, the only thing on their mind is blaming the English for their own failings and it is just one reason why i could never support them.

[christophmahler]

May I ask, in what sense had Scotland 'bankrupted' English society ?

Certainly it is quite popular to criticize a great power - but why is there so few enthusiasm today - even about the Commonwealth - among Scotsmen, the Irish - or in South Africa or India ?

After the defeat of the Jacobites - Scotland can be seen as a sucessful attempt to overcome sole nationalism into something more thoughtful.But still Adam Smith seems not to be embraced by the Youth - not even by common 'gals' from Sussex.

[christophmahler]

«As for the rest of the Empire - the great dependencies of India, Egypt, Iraq, and the protected states - technique of control is changing from the methods of Cromer and Milner to a subtler form of indirect influence, less offensive to nationalism.»

[christophmahler]

«If it can appease the ambitions of the native populations to rule themselves without losing all the economic ground gained during the period of domination, the method should work as satisfactorily as any such government of these nations could be expected to. Lion must turn to Unicorn´s methods even in the dependencies.»

("Pax Britannica and peace of world", "The new British Empire"; William Yandell Elliott; 1932)