Voices of Choice - Rev. Howard Moody

[neokilroy]

Seems more like "Voices of Assholes" to me

[bcmasta1returns]

Thou Shalt Not Kill, Reverend.

[AR15Militant]

What a p.o.s.

[joyfulhelpmeet]

oops, i accidently posted 2 videos....i dont think they need to know how to bake bread

[helmuthoorn]

Giving birth to a child does not kill you and does not need to be a burden that you have to carry with you for the rest of your life; abortion could be.

What seperates you and me is presumably our different perception towards unborn children and the practice of abortion.

We could go on untill the bleak midwinter debating, but l have to cook dinner for my wife & kids who will come home soon.

Hope that some of the statements made in this debate will make us both think.

Peace.

Hope that some

[Bumblybee256]

@helmuthoorn Tell that to the women of Sierra Leone, with the highest maternal mortality in the world. Of COURSE childbirth can kill you. Why would knowing that I removed something from my uterus that I didn't want there be a burden to me?

You are male, you will never live by what you are saying and you've no right to tell women how they should be. It's a shame you see your wife in that way.

[helmuthoorn]

Childbirth CAN kill, abortion however ALLWAYS does. Apart from that we both live in developed countries and can count ourselves lucky that we have access to medical facilities the people in Sierra Leone do not have.

How should this affect the way l see my wife (as pro-life as l am and mother of 4) whom l've been married to for 29 yrs.?

[Bumblybee256]

@helmuthoorn Yes, that's the POINT of abortion. I only said Sierra Leone had the highest rate, not that they are the only women who die.

Because you seem to think her body is not her own and exists for the use of a fetus if it should exist. In other words, you cant think much of her.

What do you mean 'count ourselves lucky'- how many kids have you given birth to?

[helmuthoorn]

Whatever gives you the idea that any pro life advocate reduces the value of a human being to an organ of reproduction?

ln the case of Sierra Leone l was referring to the limiited acces to medical facilities overthere, which has a negative effect on natal care and medical care in general.

Furthermore l consider women as fellow human beings and as such each unique and irreplacable in their individual personalities.

Her body IS indeed her own, but so is the life growing within her.

[Bumblybee256]

@helmuthoorn because that's what it amounts to. You don't believe a woman has the right to control her own body.

Regardless of 'facilities' pregnancy and childbirth carry inherent risk. Women still die from complications in developed nations so your point was wrong.

You clearly do not because you believe it's ok for women's bodies to be used against our wills.

[helmuthoorn]

NO !!!

That is just the way in which liberal ideologies are reducing human beings to biological entities.

Every occupation and every physical condition performed or undergone by us in this life carries inherit risks. lf we would avoid every risk we would not be alive, or life would not be worth living.

And again; a womans body IS definitely her own, but this also the case with the life she carries.

This is simply a question of fundamental human ethics and morals, far surpassing any gender issue.

[Bumblybee256]

@helmuthoorn Yes, but just because everyday life contains risks doesn't mean we are obliged to undergo unecessary risk. 'ownership of fetus' is irrelevant- it is using her body and if she does not want it there it has no right to do so. It IS a gender issue because you are passing judgement on a hardship you will NEVER know but moreover it is a matter of autonomy. The interests of a person are not comparable to those of a fetus and it is an insult to women to claim otherwise.

[helmuthoorn]

Although l enjoy debating on a sensible and adult level l propose that we shall agree to disagree on this issue.

But thank you anyway for taking the time and the effort to engage in a debate.

Peace.

[Bumblybee256]

@helmuthoorn wow, spectacular fail.

[rebelmars]

To the Bible-quoters all over youtube:

If you don't believe in abortion, then you most definitely should not have one. If YOUR religion says it is wrong, then that's for you to weigh.

But -- Is it too much of a stretch for you to remember that every human being is NOT the same religion as you??

[bckyrdboogie]

You are a disgusting human being. I hope your black and white life will eventually accept the idea of variability.

[mshafer1021]

Seriously folks...you Anti-Lifers are BAD PEOPLE -- all of you. Yes, I am talking about every one of you stone-hearted, murdering son's of bitches who are just as guilty as the whores who spread their legs, and then pretend there is no consequences for doing it.

Do you idiots not realize what happens when an abortion is performed? A fully formed human being with hands, a head, ears, eyes, a heart, feet...sucking its thumb, hopping up and down, rolling around, cooing...is RIPPED TO PIECES.

[rebelmars]

Oh, please, open a science book every once in a while. Most abortions are so early on in pregnancy the cells are alive, yes, but they aren't even recognizable as human beings yet.

"Cooing"??? You are quite disturbed, and uninformed.

[icimblind]

Show me in any science books where it says it is Not necessary for conception or any other part of human development. Coning is Not how you got here. You can't divorce yourself from this part of your Human development or you don't exist. So you have to recognize this part of development as a Human Being.

[choirboy526]

everything you said is true....

The company that created the pill RU-486 were the inventors of Hitler's gas chambers...

[Milano1848]

Dirty bastard.

[dannyg271]

"Reproductive choice"? The choice to rip a baby out of your womb? Rethink your idea of liberty

[mshafer1021]

Most assuredly I say to you, this man will know nothing but everlasting torment. The smoke of it will rise up for all eternity. The darkest pits of hell shall be his everlasting dwelling, and the blood of children will forever be upon his head.

This man is a hell-bound, murderin' son of a bitch, whose conscience has been seared as with a hot iron. He is a shill of Satan, having wrought death and destruction in his wake. He is a destroyer of life, and of good things and all that is good.

[dbohls]

Holy shit! You are a fuckin' nutjob!

[mshafer1021]

People, the arguments against are Abortion need not be confined to religion.

In fact, there is no argument. It is dastardly, cowardly, inhumane, criminal, horrific, barbaric - it is MURDER. Why in the hell are there laws in place saying you can't murder people, yet babies are murdered with the full sanction and blessing of the law!

Abortion is legal for 3 reasons: (1) population reduction (2) organ harvesting and trafficking (3) social debasement and discord, to consolidate gov't control

[philateliceun]

A foetus is not a baby.

A foetus has no relations.

A foetus has no hopes

A foetus has no memories.

A foetus has no understanding of the world.

If a foetus dies it makes as much difference as cumming into a condom instead of impregnating the woman. You can CHOOSE to be anti abortion because you think that every opportunity must be used but that is YOUR choice. Abortion is legal because it is freedom. The freedom to make mistakes. The freedom to consider your actions. The freedom of a 2nd chance

[YourHumanRights]

Nazi and slave owner/trader logic.

[dbohls]

In your fairy-tale world, every pregancy is perfect. Welcome to the real world, where sometime women are impregnated by rapists or a relative, and sometime, the pregnancy may take the life of the baby or the mother, or BOTH. Your reductionist logic is riduculous, Reality is not black and white as you would have it. Shove your "3 reasons" up your ass, you simpleton.

[thekustomguy]

Do you realize how few of the pregnancies that happen are the results of rape or incest, and how many fewer endanger the lives of the mother or child. The vast, vast majority of women have abortions because having a child is inconvenient. Is it really a good idea to murder someone because they will inconvenience you. You accuse someone of being a "simpleton" when you are being one yourself.

[dbohls]

I effectively refuted the idea that there is *never* a reason for abortion, and made no claims about how common it is for any particular reason for abortion. Don't put words in my mouth. You also live in a black and white world.

[Bumblybee256]

Pregnancy and childbirth is not just a mild 'inconvenience', it's completely life changing and mind altering.

No being has the right to use anothers body without their consent, whether they be a fetus or an adult. A woman's uterus is HERS, noone elses.

[helmuthoorn]

Which logically amounts to the statement that nobody has the right to live if this gets into somebody elses way.

Sick !

[Bumblybee256]

No, it is not just 'getting in someone elses way', it is having the right to use somebody elses body.

Do you or do you not have the right to use someone elses body without their permission?

You didn't answer.

[helmuthoorn]

No l donot.

But l'm not a completely helpless and defenseless child who's totally unable to make any decision and therefore subject to the whims, ideas and ambitions of others.

Don't get me on the spelling.

You know what l mean and English is not my mother tongue.

[Bumblybee256]

And in what way is the patient (who will die if they don't get the kidney) not helpless and not subject to your whims?

Both will die, what's the difference?

[helmuthoorn]

Anyway me or you is missing the point here.

The difference is that a child inside a whomb cannot make any decision, but we can.

There are universal - and not necessairely religious- core moral values at stake here and gender (having a uterus) does not exclude a person from these.

Nobody has to die.

Why should they die if we are presented with the priceless opportunity to save them ?

[Bumblybee256]

Er. No. I'm perfectly on target regarding the point, you sound avoidant.

The 'child' is physiologically incapable of making a decision yes, that doesn't mean it wouldn't be the woman's decision anyway. What choice would that patient have? Actually- having a uterus makes all the difference here. It not a case of 'they ought to die', it's a case of a woman's body belonging to her. Believe it or not women are capable of weighing up options and making choices and only they are in the position to.

[helmuthoorn]

''Having a uterus makes all the difference''

And then there are actually feminsts who accuse pro life people of being ''sexist''.

Of course women are perfectly capable of making decisions and choices, who ever denies this would indeed be a sexist.

(I'm not a muslim you know.)

The question is if these are the right choices and decisions and this still surpasess any gender issues.

[Bumblybee256]

...................you're going top have to rephrase that, it makes no sense.

The 'right choice' depends completely on how any given woman feels and her particular, unique situation. So there is no one 'right choice'. That is why there must be A choice.

[helmuthoorn]

Agreed.

A debate about an issue like this should focus on the individual situation of a particular and unique human being in corresponding particular and unique circumstances.

There is however a question l would like to ask you : Does being equipped with certain physical characteristics grant you the right to decide over life and death ?

[Bumblybee256]

Yes it does. Should women not be able to choose to create life BECAUSE they have a uterus? Should women just have no say in the matter at all?

We have the right to Because we have the physical characteristics.

[helmuthoorn]

Women are NOT the sole creators of life because of their physical characterics, so this argument is non sequitur to begin with.

If you speak about ''the matter'' you are generalizing and therefore contradicting your own previous statement about individual and particular circumstances.

A foetus is not a parasite, or a disease, but a potential human being and destroying her/his life in order to forfill certain individual needs can't be anything else but premeditated murder.

[Bumblybee256]

Not genetically, but we are the sole 'carriers and growers' of the life we are talking about, which is what actually matters. I'm not contradicting anything, it is necessary to generalize a bit in order to have this discussion, I mentioned the individuals situation because you kept talking about the 'right choice'.

To an unwilling mother a fetus may as well be a parasite- the fact it is a human being is irrelevant. Women OWN their bodies, just like you. As a male your opinion is pointless.

[helmuthoorn]

Human beings are irrelevant, because women own their bodies ???

[Bumblybee256]

I'm sorry- are women not human beings?

I'm saying merely being human does not grant you a special right to life. It is not an argument against abortion.

None of us have a 'right' to be born and none of us have a right to use another's body.

You have already agreed noone would have the right to use your body without your say so even if they would die.

[helmuthoorn]

Being a woman doesn't grant you a special right to kill either.

lf we don't have a right to be born, then why are we alive anyway ?

Never agreed with that.

On the contrary.

l would consider it my duty and even a honourable prerogative to sacrefice myself to save someones life.

[Bumblybee256]

It does if there's someone feeding off your body that you don't want to be there.

Yes, I know what YOU would do- that's not the point if we are talking about rights. It's also irrelevant as you will never be in a woman's position.

Why are we alive if we have no right to be born? Because our mothers CHOSE to carry us out of love? Would you want your mother to have been forced? So what you are claiming that every baby that can be born has the right to be born? (contd)

[Bumblybee256]

- so women do not own their bodies, they are just for the use of the unborn?

We celebrate birthdays, not conception days- because birth marks the start of a life, a rite of passage. We are alive because mother's are kind enough to grow us and sacrifice for us- not because we have the right to use them.

[helmuthoorn]

Firstly; this line of thought is a blatent insult towards countless fathers who worked themselves into an early grave in order to provide for their children, including mine.

Secondly; there are a number of precautions available to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

Thirdly; a woman is more than just a body to be used for feeding, just as a foetus is more than ''someone feeding off your body''.

[Bumblybee256]

Firstly: No it isn't, I haven't said a thing against fathers. I am talking about birth, not afterwards. We are given our birth because our mothers are kind enough to do that for us.

Secondly: there are, they don't always work and it is highly unrealistic to say sex is only for reproduction. It is not.

Thirdly: Not to a woman who does not want the fetus. I am well aware women are more than just bodies used for feeding off, thank you, that is not the impression given from pro-lifers.

[helmuthoorn]

Sex is not only for reproduction, but it is however the only natural cause of reproduction.

If two people donot consider this then the consequence could be an unwanted pregnancy, which is allways very traumatic and upsetting (granted !), but does not necessairely has to be exterminated, regarding the alternatives; e.g. accepting the child as an integral part of you as a mother (granted again !) or, if not wanting to do so,

offering the child for adoption.

ctnd.

[Bumblybee256]

Noone disputes that.......I'm fully aware there is no other way to get pregnant- that's not what I'm saying. It does not have to be exterminated but if teh woman does not want to be pregnant or give birth then she has the to. Accepting the child as an integral part of you? You're becoming very idealistic.

[helmuthoorn]

lt's been a pleasure debating with you and l do appreciate your civilized tone and sharp wit, but have to go to bed now.

Maybe continue this tomorrow.

[steffyb528]

I don't know what kind of preacher you are, but a Christian can never be for killing children. There are 7 things God hates in the Bible. One of those is hands that shed innocent blood. You are either truly deceived or not a follower of the Bible. God knows each child, and thank God they are in Heaven.

[SucculentSaskie]

How can you be so outraged over their "killing," yet thanking God that they're in heaven? If God knows what will happen to each person, then He knows that a given pregnancy will be aborted. It's not as though it comes as a surprise. Your moral outrage is misplaced and illogical.

[christinepeace]

loved your post ref misplaced and illogical moral outrage.

[steffyb528]

because we all should be outraged at child killing. Just because they are in Heaven does not mean it is not a terrible thing that they died.

[dbohls]

Steffy, your God hates a lot more than 7 things. If you'll actually read the bible, you'll find out that we're all going to hell. You included. Read leviticus. Luckily, the bible is ridiculous nonsense.

[steffyb528]

No, the Bible specifically says in Proverbs there are 7 things God hates. There are plenty he doesn't like like in the 10 Commandments and elsewhere, but 7 he hates.

[dbohls]

Just curious, have you read all of the bible?

[steffyb528]

Yes, I have. Just answering your question, not bragging. There are many good Bible reading plans where you can read the Bible in a year, and it's fairly simple only about 3 chapters a day.

[dbohls]

Of course you're not bragging; being prideful is one of those 7 things God hates and he will happily let you burn in hell fire externally for it.

I must say, I've met very few Christians that have actually read the whole Bible. I am both impressed at your perseverance and appalled that you still buy into it after having read it. I haven't read it all, but it became evident to me very quickly that it was man who created God in his image; not the other way around. Thanks for being friendly.

[steffyb528]

sure thing, might I suggest that you study the archeology of Biblical lands while you read the Bible. There is a lot out there that corraborates what you read in the Bible if you do the research. May I ask what religion you are?

[dbohls]

I am agnostic that there is a creator. I am atheist in regards to any of the existing religions. I am absolutely convinced that, if anything created this incredible universe, it is definitely not the petty, spiteful, and horribly flawed God that is described in the bible.