Economics Roundtable: Legalizing Drugs

[ZyClave]

jeffrey miron is insanely intelligent! He explains and argues incredebly well for libertarianism! God, i love listening to smart people!

[joeyrifficify]

People make a lot of blanket assertions about what "would" happen or "would not" happen, but I see little empirical evidence to support legalization. What Countries or States have had permissive policies concerning drugs, other than, e.g., Afghanistan? What effects have such policies had on these Countries or States? I also notice that almost every responder favors legalization. Might this be an example of confirmation bias in action?

[kev3d]

@joeyrifficify Portugal. Since they have decriminalized, drug use has actually fallen, as have HIV rates.  The hotbed of legal pot (and some other things), Amsterdam actually sees less marijuana consumption per capita than the United States. Furthermore, within the United States, we saw the effects of prohibition with alcohol and it did far more harm than good. Crack and Meth are products of prohibition, as the interdiction drove up the price of safer drugs.

[kev3d]

@joeyrifficify Another example is Mexico, while drugs have been illegal for quite some time, the violence between the cartels and with police was much lower because there was a lot of bribery and turned backs. But the current Calderon administration has taken a "hard stance" against drugs; the result is horrible violence and a dramatic increase in the murder rate, particularly in the border towns. Of course illegal drug sales fuel gang activity and turf wars in the US as well.

[StanleyDonwood]

Does anyone read The Economist? They published a poll today, which asked Americans, among wide political issues, what they thought of the legalisation of marijuana for personal use(note: not just medical use, recreational use too). Huge majority on young, similarly large majority among middle-aged people, slight majority in the over 65s. There was even a majority in favour among Republicans! It's getting really ridiculous, something has to be done.

[joeyrifficify]

@StanleyDonwood What needs to be done? Do we need to change all their minds? Is it only important that all those people want something, or is their reason for wanting it also relevant?

[ConservativeRev]

Welp we should legalize drugs. That's the best option. Our other alternative is to fight the war on drugs differently, put the user in prison for a long-ass time, that's a good way to kick a habbit. And it will hurt the demand because people will be more scared to get caught.

[jerryvalez]

What I don't understand is that it seems when I talk to people, just random people, about drug legalization, almost everyone seems very open to the idea, even some you wouldn't suspect. Who are these folks that want to continue to use law enforcement against drug users? Why is their no national out cry about this, it is so obvious that legalization would greatly benefit society, I just don't understand why this is not a regular issue in political discourse, like taxes, the war, or other issues.

[twispsalterego]

the truth is with legalization the disease rate would go down, along with use.

clean needles can be bought over the counter in a good number of states. if the addict could get their drugs at the pharmacy at the same time it would work so much better than the current illegal system.

[fuelban]

If we made nylons and beans illegal tomorrow, then the price would rise, and guns would be used to settle the turf, and that nylons and beans guys, put morals of yours to one side, and think of the poor folks caught up in any circumstances of illegal trafficking, if it isn’t illegal, it wont be trafficked and we the people will control it….. Not those others.

Thom in Scotland.

[fuelban]

Drug prohibitions like anti prostitution, does not & never will work, like a snow ball, the further you roll it, the bigger the ball get’s, de criminalise these things, for you give nothing but cost to the public, and profit to the evil peoples, morality wise, if you don’t, then you wont, if you do, then you will anyway, {anyway} legal or not, prohibition is an excuse to allow someone else {governments} to take the wrap.

Thom in Scotland.

[fuelban]

Who do we all know from the USA drink prohibitions, not the voters who voted, but al Capone perhaps !!!, grow up, morals aside, get shot of prohibitions. Use common sense guys.

Thom in Scotland.

[bluntzondamoon]

dont get me wrong, i love pot... but i dont think nations should endorse such destructive and harmful behavior... frankly i think amsterdam has been destroyed through its drug trade and the united states should not foster such immorality...kids need to stay away from drugs and get educations... my schooling was nearly destroyed by drugs and i was certainly destined for the highest education standards prior to my addiction.. we cannot let individuals think such harmful substances are ok

[Pitfytr]

haha....stoner!

[MrJeffsVideos]

4 WORDS, NO MORE BLACK MARKET.

[Amilitantatheist]

Thank you for this. I am drug free, other than caffeine, and I support everybody's right to put anything in their body they want to. The government should not try to legislate health, ever.

[1888junkteam]

excellent work!

[woodrowpimp]

this guy is on the right path!

[007hs]

we should definately legalise cocaine, id love a line of coke right now.

[bluestatesrock]

My son overdosed 2004. I don't speak casually when I endorse legalization. I believe he might have lived had the money wasted on the pointless drug war and encarceration of addicts been redirected to drug treatment, management, or perhaps if my son had a "measured dose". Maybe whoever was with him wouldn't have left him for dead had they not feared the police.

With Clinton talking yesterday about the violence in Mexico. I am surprised there is not more discussion of this topic.

[Claytrainor]

Respect to you and your son, and thank you for taking the logical position on this issue

Be sure to wake up as many people as you can with your story :-)

[gworrel]

@bluestatesrock

I had a friend who died from a drug overdose and I also believe that the drug war was the cause of his death. He suffered back injuries in a car accident but was unable to continue to obtain prescription painkillers and so turned to street drugs. He left a young son behind. I have no doubt that the overdose was the result of an unknown potency. The drug war is an immoral disaster.

[jewfishie2]

@bluestatesrock i say overdose is another form of natural selection

[TheArbiter74]

@bluestatesrock My heart goes out to you. My uncle''s daughter's boyfriend died from an overdose, as well. I can't help but think that he probably wouldn't have been a crack-addict, if he was from Chicago!!! How many people in Vienna are dying from drug overdoses? They don't have the CIA, little italy, and mexicans spreading poison on their people. The world's universal drug, marijuana and hashish are relativey harmless and in some instances, can enrich peoples lives!!

[StanleyDonwood]

@bluestatesrock

Plenty of people in your situation might just get angry, and do something stupid - like supporting the war on drugs. I admire you for thinking about it, and for coming to a sensible point of view.

[andria3a]

@bluestatesrock

You're a shining light in the world to understand all this and promote a more compassionate , pragmatic and economically infinitely more sensible position!

From an addict who survived..

Andria

[freestatereport]

It's a nice discussion to talk about and discuss the pros and cons. For me I could argue the point in one minute. Government does not have any authority to tell you what to put in your body. Any attempts to stop someone from using whatever they want into their own bodies is committing aggression against their neighbor and is immoral.

[thefakeyeti]

I doubt higher prices in drugs deter use..

The problem is, I am thinking a lot of people either

1. Don't realize they are taking the drug. IE. marijuana laced with crystal meth.. either by a asshole friend, or a dealer.

2. I am guessing most people that KNOWINGLY take ADDICTIVE substances don't believe they are going to become addicted. So a syringe of heroine could be 30 bucks(I think it is less then that) but people would still use it, because it is worth it for that "one time"

[thefakeyeti]

I would even go as far to say that I believe that most people that used heroin and "hard drugs" Probably did it once, and then never did it again... or at the very least, didn't become addicted to it..

I had said that to my mom, asking how would they know? And she stated that they should go to rehabs and conduct polls

The problem with that, is they would be going to addicts, and asking if they became addicted to drugs

Now I am not willing to bet my life on this thought..

[strawberrydye]

It seems the arguments supporting the drug war are driven by emotional and ethical appeals around drug use while arguments like the one presented here are factual and logical. whether you disagree with allowing people to use drugs or not, you can't ignor the consequences the drug war has caused to our society.

[thefakeyeti]

That's how the world functions..

Can't of any logical, and factual arguments?

appeal to emotion..

we have enough problems with alcohol and cigarettes.. why would we want to legalize yet one more vice?

Is one of the most common appeals to emotion I have heard..

[brix04]

When governments don't know how to solve a problem, they create a law. Laws do nothing but under mind a persons ability to choose right from wrong,

"Think for yourself, question authority"

~Dr. Timothy Leary.

RIP Mr Bill Hicks.

[bajawind]

next to alcohol and tobacco (most deadly) prescription drugs are the next most danger drugs out there--the use of which has skyrocketed in the past 20 years, even in kids...way to go fools.

[balazyksi]

Hells yes. When scientist have done positive assesment on the hazard of different drugs, they have come to the conclusion that ethanol is there at the very near top of the most dangerous drugs. Tobaco is more dangerous than marijuana.

So what I succest is that cut the bs and eighter illeagalize all the drugs or leagalize the whole bunch.

I'd rather have them all leagalized. There's nothing wrong with the occasional booze or joint... or a shot of heroin, if you happen to be a complete retard.

[Volren2]

The goverment can't decide if they want us to have the right to kill ourselves slowly or not.

I disagree that we should legalize harder drugs like cocaine and herione, being stupid has nothing to do with getting addicted to them, Weed on the other hand is a different story, its practically harmless if you filter it and is already legilized in some countries. The goverment waste billions of dollars a year jailing people using or selling a practically harmless drug.

[balazyksi]

All I can say is, that I don't take it as a sign of sublime intelligence if someone becomes addicted to hard drugs.

Everyone knows that they make you feel great, but because of that very reason (and the chemical properties) they also make you addicted. Unless you abhore feeling awesome, which is unconventional.

So keep clear of those 'fucking chemicals' (-Begbie) if you don't want to became a zombie... the way I see it is that the odds are you already are a dimwit if you want to spin that deal

[thefakeyeti]

"I disagree that we should legalize harder drugs like cocain and herione"

What drugs do you think terrorists are selling in order to become rich>?

Be honest here, if opium (herione) were never prohibited. Do you believe osama bin laden would be NEARLY as powerful as he is today?

STOP letting the enemy profit from these drugs..

I would rather see people die from self destruction, then from terrorists..

[Volren]

You realise many, many, many more people would die if opiates and cocaine where legalised, and it wouldn't just be people dying from it in the far east, hundreds of people would be dying because of shitty needles and unregulated dosages every few hours. Now if cannabis where to be legalizes, we wouldn't see any death but we'd see thousands of local dealers run out of buisness, crime rate would decrease. Cannabis is the west's most popular drug, and it fuels crimminals as much as heroine and coke

[thefakeyeti]

"hundreds of people would be dying because of shitty needles and unregulated dosages every few hours"

How is making it illegal make it so the user can minister the amount they want to avoid a od?

How is making it illegal make it so they get safe needles?

And where are you getting your numbers from? I for one doubt deatsh would go up any significant amount, I think it would go down because users would know what they are getting.

[thefakeyeti]

You can throw your EMOTIONAL points at me all day, but I don't think they are based on FACT.

The facts state that drug addicts were the same percentile of the population before and after heroine and cocaine were made illegal.

Before KIDS could go into stores and buy heroine ffs! Drug addiction wasn't that big of a deal then, and once/if drugs become legalized, it won't be a big deal then..

hell, I think drug abuse is fabricated today!

[thefakeyeti]

You act as though,millions of people wan't to do these drugs but don't because that pisky law!

I guess I have more faith in the human species then you do, enough faith to say we will do perfectly fine without beuracrats teliing us what they can and cannot put into their bodies. 4,500 people, a year die from heroin and cocaine use in the U.S. a year, I doubt that number would even double if it were to be legal. You act as if you think it would increase 100 times over.

[thefakeyeti]

Even if the death rate did increase 50 times over..

Would you say this is unacceptable? It would still be a lower number then alcohol and tobacco. Should we outlaw these vices?

Or should we have respect for the individual and say they have the right to consume whatever they want?

At the very LEAST we should prescribe heroine and cocaine to those that are addicted.

[Volren]

eaths would go up because availability would go up, therefore useage would rise, therefore narcotic related deaths would rise.

[thefakeyeti]

We are in disagreement here, yes useage may go up.. But I doubt by all that much, like i said before,even if it went up 50fold it still wouldn't warrant a war.

HOWEVER, most deaths are caused by over doses, and impurities..

Most over doses happen because the potency from one syringe can differ greatly from another syringe..

And impurities happen because it is unregulated..

Deaths PROBABLY would go down (Stop saying WOULD WOULD WOULD, you have no way of KNOWING that and neither do I)

[thefakeyeti]

Plus, the violence that goes along with prohibition ie. drive bys Would go down, by A LOT..

Some gangs shoot random, unidentified vehicles because they are scared it is the competition..

I am not the keeper of my brother's body, if heroine became legal, and he died from it.. I wouldn't feel guilty because of my opinion. Just to get that off of my chest.. I am the keeper of A.J. *******'S body, and his alone.

[thefakeyeti]

In the same way, someone who is a Gun lobbist shouldn't feel guilty, if one of their loved ones kill themselves using a gun..

[Volren]

I guess we are in disagreement and I actually think you have some decent points, I completely agree that we should get the drug trade away from crimminals and tax it and regulate it, but I think a large amount of people would need to be educated on the useage of these drugs before hand, and ok its PROBABLE useage would go up.

[Rockynurse]

Really? Where is the data to support your claim that "many more people would die". There is data to suggest that many people would not die. Addicts wouldn't get tainted batches and drug dealers would not shoot the competition!

[Volren]

Because the number of regular users would rise. You're right that the crimminality of drugs would be stopped but those arn't the only threat narcotics pose.

[Rockynurse]

The number of users wouldn't rise very much. The demand for heroin is highly inelastic. With an Ed<1. If cigaretes became $1 a pack it wouldn't effect consumption that much because Ed is .15.

[lfasbael]

Yeah, and there's actually zero correlation between the strictness of a nation's drug laws and it's usage rates.

[MrBDTT88]

@lfasbael

You are absolutely correct. The number of non-functioning addicts is virtually unchanged from 60 years ago, when you could buy heroin, complete with a fancy syringe and carrying case, from the Sears catalogue!

[cincy67]

10 years after legalization crack and other drugs would sit on shelves with rat poision. the attraction to use it would be that of rat poision. addicts would still exist but not to the extent now. decriminalization removes the mystique. Gangs would lose, drug dealers lose, law enforcement/corrections officers lose. everyone else wins. Pot use may increase but put me on the interstate with a pothead over a drunk any day. This man makes too much sense to be listened to by lawmakers.

[ghostryder000]

Our Country is so desprate that there thinking about legalizing drugs? thats awesome!!! i wanna get FUCKED UP!!!!! XD

[RandomRandy420]

Economics is theory. No one can tell what will really happen till they try it.

[thefakeyeti]

productivety might INCREASE..

(not talkingabout people high off of crack)

But, picture all those people who get busted, and have to show up to court?

Wouldn't they be more PRODUCTIVE if they worked instead?

[SketchyTree]

...If it's legal, they don't get "busted." Instead of being "busted" for simple possession, or even having your own plants, and sending someone to prison, taking them out of the workforce, they'd be left alone, unless "busted" for a DUI. Denying someone employment for off-the-job use (different of course if they were intoxicated at the time of the test) would REDUCE productivity. Prison terms, REDUCE productivity.

Think before you type and hit submit, please?

[thefakeyeti]

"Think before you type and hit submit, please?"

....

Back atcha. I was talking about it being a GOOD thing if marijuana was legal.

Ie if it is legalized, productiviety will be increased.. do to people no longer having to show up to court.

[evangeline01266]

FUZZY VOODOO HIGH ECONOMICS!

[downdere]

Marijuana should be legal, dranning the crimminal profit by 100% It makes sense because marijuana is everywhere whether you like it or not, se it or not, its there growing and being smoked. This would then lead to more time and money being spent on fighting harder drug crimes, like for meth, and cocain, somthing that can actually harm you in dangerous ways, not pot.

[thefakeyeti]

....

"don't go after the pot smokers! Go after those OTHER drug users!"

That is the atitude I am seeing there,

meth and cocaine should be legalized as well...

[fbizzay]

If only economists ran the world!

[b0mb0klat]

Loool who the hell do you think runs the world?

God? Stalin? Mormons?

They already run the world and have been since the mid 1800's...go read a book...Black market money is much more profitable for a few than a legalized, taxed market. Plus the money's almost untraceable and can fund all sorts of shadowy geopolitical and technological manipulations and "black projetcs".

[fbizzay]

I see that you are not familiar with "expressions." I'll try to explain, but be aware that I will use simple words because obviously I have never read a book. The general part of the expression was "if only." When that is used it refers to "if only" such in such would happen, things would be ideal. It is obvious that things are not ideal in the world today, thus my expression would impress that if economists ran the world, we would be in an ideal situation. You did not support that statement.

[b0mb0klat]

indeed, i do not support this statement, thanks for re-wording my message! :p

There are economists who produce interesting and mind-opening research such as this guy, the problem is that the dominating dogma right now only encourage ideas and concepts which re-inforce its status-quo and its ideology.

Holland shows to the world that legalization is of great benefit to both consummers and the economy. More tax income and less addicted users compared to other european countries.

[fbizzay]

I don't get why the hell we're going back and forth on this. Yes I agree that economists produce interesting and mind-opening research, and I also agree that society has built up paradigms on false information that will not allow these interesting and mind-opening ideas to take effect. THUS, economists don't run the world. I do like that last post though, good evidence, and written like a true scholar. All I have to offer is my powerful brain that has never read a book.

[fbizzay]

I don't get why we're going back and forth on this, you've just said yourself that economist don't run the world because of dogma. I believe the same thing. The economists have great ideas, but society has built up paradigms that stop them from becoming reality. Sure some ideas are carried through, but I would like to see a majority of them at least given careful consideration. I do like you last post though, very scholarly. All I can offer is my powerful brain that has never read a book.

[jbear3333]

there are more reasons to legalize, than to illegalize... it's painfully obvious

[mrzack888]

Drugs SHOULD be legalized. The CIA ships the Cocaine into the black neighborhoods.