Certainly, Plutarch is much closer in time to the Spartan topic in cuestion and, therefore, has much more credibility than all the present day hecklers and their homophobic mind set. Good thing that ancient Greek ceramics prove the extensive practice of homosexuality as well as the ancient Greek myths that expose the very gods that the ancient gods whom the Greeks feared, loved, honored and worshiped as having homosexual inclinations such as Zeus/Ganymedes, Apollo/Hyacinth, Hercules/Iolus, etc.
Yes, but I make my arguments from a particular textual, written work. In Europe, where I studied for a while, they call this style an explanation of the text. Thanks for your time in viewing and commenting on my upoad.
Plutatrch remains one of the greastest of the authors to survive from antiquity to the Renaissance and current modernity, well, at least until the early 20th century. Most of the classics fell to Christian monks and barbarism's hordes. His writings have had no small impact in the western world. He is an important literary figure, and the one from whom popular audiences over the centuries learned of the ancient world, via Shakespeare, and others to numerous to mention.
I Ilke the way you had put it earlier when you noted that Plutarch may be dreaming, writing a waking fantasy about the good old days. Sure the Roman Empire, when he wrote THE LIVES, was at the zenith of its "decadence." Looking back into time Plutarch had a utopian vison, the perfect society, in this case Sparata under its original constitution. We could put his depiction of Lycurgus as a chapter in the history of utopian socieies. Serious archaeology around ancient Sparta Google shows
What I wish to stress over and again -- I restrict myself to a textual analysis of Plutarch's idea of the Spartan constitution under Lycurgus. The time between the two was vast. No way do I attempt to settle claims about Spartan homosexuality, nor do I attempt to enter or end the controversey about the ultimate infulence of Spartan ideals having to do with citizenship. Ms. Hughes, BBC , SPARTA, 2006, presents Sparta at length, gleened from current archaeology.
@StanleyPacion You do realize, sir, that the topic you're reading on here, viz. the alleged institutional homosexuality in ancient Sparta while under the laws of Lycurgus, is entirely fiction, yes?
@SigurdHeathen The best work came from the Athenian Xenophon, who was writing in 375 BC, about 100 years after the time of Marathon and Thermopylae. He flatly denied the "institutionalized" homosexuality claimed concerning Sparta. The English historian A.H.M. Jones wrote a book, entitled SPARTA, that also found no evidence that the claim shown in the vid is fact. Plutarch, whom he claims as his source, was writing nearly 400 years after Xenophon's time. Cont'd
Cont'd The signs of this homosexuality is entirely falsified by the observations of other Greeks of the period of Sparta under Lycurgus. 1) Spartan men typically married in their early to mid 20's, while still living in a barracks, leaving little time for such affairs. 2) Spartan women were noted as having opinions, and being unafraid to voice them in public. This, noted Aristotle, was due to the lack of the "moderating influence" of homosexual relationships among the Spartan men. Cont'd
Cont'd This caused the other Greeks to believe that Spartans were "ruled by their wives." 3) Pottery and other archaeological finds from the period entirely lacked any portrait of homosexual relations whatever.
The claims of the vid author that Lycurgus wrote anything like what he says into his Constitution is void of historical merit. The original Constitution was never written, and by Plutarch's time, it had been rescinded twice and instituted twice. By his time, the people of...Cont'd
Cont'd Sparta were no longer the descendents of the original Doric inhabitants who'd been the soldiers of Leonidas' or Aschylaus' time. They were the descendents of the Helots, the Messinian slaves of those Spartans of legend. The Constitution of Plutarch's time was drawn from memories of old men who'd never been the same Spartans of lore.
Like it or not, true historical scholarship refutes this notion that the Spartans of the legendary time practiced homosexuality, institutional or otherwise
However heart-felt the following commentaries, what must remember is that I restrict myself to a textual analysis of Plutarch's idea of the Spartan constitution under Lycurgus. No way do I attempt to settle the questions about Spartan homosexuality, nor do I attempt to enter or end the controversey about the ultimate infulence of Spartan ideals having to do with citizenship. Ms. Hughes on the BBC series, 2006, presents quite a few observations on Sparta gleened from current archaeology.
"Lastly, it is a frequent misconception that Spartan society was also blatantly homosexual. Curiously, no contemporary source and no archaeological evidence support this widespread assumption. The best ancient source on Sparta, Xenophon, explicitly denies the already common rumours about widespread pederasty."
"Aristotle noted that the power of women in Sparta was typical of all militaristic and warlike societies without a strong emphasis on male homosexuality – arguing that in Sparta this "positive" moderating factor on the role of women in society was absent. There is no Spartan/Laconian pottery with explicitly homosexual motifs – as there is from Athens and Corinth and other cities.
William E. Bray, author of, The Emasculation of Men in America, claims that *part of* the Feminist movement is to oppress men's sexuality; particularly by associating male homosexuality as bad. The concept is that men shouldn't have access to a sexual alternative other than sexual dependence on women. From there, this brand of Feminists can further build their case of female superiority.
No doubt, religious groups also denounce male homosexuality simply to oppress men sexuality.
This is a very interesting thing to consider when looking at history. What the video-maker fails to mention is the almost exact thinking that went into the NAZI MOVEMENT. Knowing the difference between the 'Homo-Butch' and the 'Homo-Nancy' gays is very important. The Spartans and NAZIS were of the strickly 'Homo-Butch' type and it was the 'feminine- Nancy-boy types' that were condemned by the NAZIs in their concentration camps. Must keep in mind there are 2 types of gays.
Riiigghhhtttt....Queer history.... Right...... i'm just using lots of dots 'cause basicley well... you're not very good at telling this kinda stuff, try practicing before you start the video. just sayin'
Certainly, Plutarch is much closer in time to the Spartan topic in cuestion and, therefore, has much more credibility than all the present day hecklers and their homophobic mind set. Good thing that ancient Greek ceramics prove the extensive practice of homosexuality as well as the ancient Greek myths that expose the very gods that the ancient gods whom the Greeks feared, loved, honored and worshiped as having homosexual inclinations such as Zeus/Ganymedes, Apollo/Hyacinth, Hercules/Iolus, etc.
Kongroide 5 months ago
90% of greeks are gay..i kno cuz i live there....
stfub100 8 months ago
Yes, but I make my arguments from a particular textual, written work. In Europe, where I studied for a while, they call this style an explanation of the text. Thanks for your time in viewing and commenting on my upoad.
StanleyPacion 1 year ago
"nevermind the written records, the internet says . . ."
This irony then would apply to this very video and what you say on the internet then?
best wishes
Thunkful2 1 year ago
Plutatrch remains one of the greastest of the authors to survive from antiquity to the Renaissance and current modernity, well, at least until the early 20th century. Most of the classics fell to Christian monks and barbarism's hordes. His writings have had no small impact in the western world. He is an important literary figure, and the one from whom popular audiences over the centuries learned of the ancient world, via Shakespeare, and others to numerous to mention.
StanleyPacion 1 year ago
I Ilke the way you had put it earlier when you noted that Plutarch may be dreaming, writing a waking fantasy about the good old days. Sure the Roman Empire, when he wrote THE LIVES, was at the zenith of its "decadence." Looking back into time Plutarch had a utopian vison, the perfect society, in this case Sparata under its original constitution. We could put his depiction of Lycurgus as a chapter in the history of utopian socieies. Serious archaeology around ancient Sparta Google shows
StanleyPacion 1 year ago
@StanleyPacion Is there any reason you chose Plutarch as your main source? Considering the time gap, it would seem a lousy source.
smartalek65 1 year ago
@SigurdHeathen
What I wish to stress over and again -- I restrict myself to a textual analysis of Plutarch's idea of the Spartan constitution under Lycurgus. The time between the two was vast. No way do I attempt to settle claims about Spartan homosexuality, nor do I attempt to enter or end the controversey about the ultimate infulence of Spartan ideals having to do with citizenship. Ms. Hughes, BBC , SPARTA, 2006, presents Sparta at length, gleened from current archaeology.
StanleyPacion 1 year ago
@SigurdHeathen Read the first of those comments I posted yesterday. Then you might not look like a total fool right now. I provided my sources.
smartalek65 1 year ago
@StanleyPacion You do realize, sir, that the topic you're reading on here, viz. the alleged institutional homosexuality in ancient Sparta while under the laws of Lycurgus, is entirely fiction, yes?
smartalek65 1 year ago
@smartalek65
[citation needed]
SigurdHeathen 1 year ago
@SigurdHeathen The best work came from the Athenian Xenophon, who was writing in 375 BC, about 100 years after the time of Marathon and Thermopylae. He flatly denied the "institutionalized" homosexuality claimed concerning Sparta. The English historian A.H.M. Jones wrote a book, entitled SPARTA, that also found no evidence that the claim shown in the vid is fact. Plutarch, whom he claims as his source, was writing nearly 400 years after Xenophon's time. Cont'd
smartalek65 1 year ago
Cont'd The signs of this homosexuality is entirely falsified by the observations of other Greeks of the period of Sparta under Lycurgus. 1) Spartan men typically married in their early to mid 20's, while still living in a barracks, leaving little time for such affairs. 2) Spartan women were noted as having opinions, and being unafraid to voice them in public. This, noted Aristotle, was due to the lack of the "moderating influence" of homosexual relationships among the Spartan men. Cont'd
smartalek65 1 year ago
Cont'd This caused the other Greeks to believe that Spartans were "ruled by their wives." 3) Pottery and other archaeological finds from the period entirely lacked any portrait of homosexual relations whatever.
The claims of the vid author that Lycurgus wrote anything like what he says into his Constitution is void of historical merit. The original Constitution was never written, and by Plutarch's time, it had been rescinded twice and instituted twice. By his time, the people of...Cont'd
smartalek65 1 year ago
Cont'd Sparta were no longer the descendents of the original Doric inhabitants who'd been the soldiers of Leonidas' or Aschylaus' time. They were the descendents of the Helots, the Messinian slaves of those Spartans of legend. The Constitution of Plutarch's time was drawn from memories of old men who'd never been the same Spartans of lore.
Like it or not, true historical scholarship refutes this notion that the Spartans of the legendary time practiced homosexuality, institutional or otherwise
smartalek65 1 year ago
@smartalek65
Nice... making a bunch of claims with no evidence or sources... way to dodge.
[citation needed]
SigurdHeathen 1 year ago
However heart-felt the following commentaries, what must remember is that I restrict myself to a textual analysis of Plutarch's idea of the Spartan constitution under Lycurgus. No way do I attempt to settle the questions about Spartan homosexuality, nor do I attempt to enter or end the controversey about the ultimate infulence of Spartan ideals having to do with citizenship. Ms. Hughes on the BBC series, 2006, presents quite a few observations on Sparta gleened from current archaeology.
StanleyPacion 1 year ago
Internet Quote:
"Lastly, it is a frequent misconception that Spartan society was also blatantly homosexual. Curiously, no contemporary source and no archaeological evidence support this widespread assumption. The best ancient source on Sparta, Xenophon, explicitly denies the already common rumours about widespread pederasty."
Thunkful2 1 year ago
@Thunkful2
Nevermind the written records; the internet says they're false so it must be false, right?
SigurdHeathen 1 year ago
"Aristotle noted that the power of women in Sparta was typical of all militaristic and warlike societies without a strong emphasis on male homosexuality – arguing that in Sparta this "positive" moderating factor on the role of women in society was absent. There is no Spartan/Laconian pottery with explicitly homosexual motifs – as there is from Athens and Corinth and other cities.
Thunkful2 1 year ago
William E. Bray, author of, The Emasculation of Men in America, claims that *part of* the Feminist movement is to oppress men's sexuality; particularly by associating male homosexuality as bad. The concept is that men shouldn't have access to a sexual alternative other than sexual dependence on women. From there, this brand of Feminists can further build their case of female superiority.
No doubt, religious groups also denounce male homosexuality simply to oppress men sexuality.
TheGoalSetter 1 year ago
This is a very interesting thing to consider when looking at history. What the video-maker fails to mention is the almost exact thinking that went into the NAZI MOVEMENT. Knowing the difference between the 'Homo-Butch' and the 'Homo-Nancy' gays is very important. The Spartans and NAZIS were of the strickly 'Homo-Butch' type and it was the 'feminine- Nancy-boy types' that were condemned by the NAZIs in their concentration camps. Must keep in mind there are 2 types of gays.
tjrxk7 2 years ago
Riiigghhhtttt....Queer history.... Right...... i'm just using lots of dots 'cause basicley well... you're not very good at telling this kinda stuff, try practicing before you start the video. just sayin'
Rikvsteen 2 years ago