Δημοσιο χρεος - Πολεμικες αποζημιωσεις - Νεο κομμα

[Jakaroukla]

ΤΑ ΣΥΓΓΝΩΜΗ ΣΑΣ ΔΕ ΠΕΡΝΑΝΕ. ΕΔΩ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΕΛΛΑΔΑ ΚΑΙ ΜΑΣ ΣΚΟΤΩΣΑΤΕ ΤΟΥΣ ΑΝΘΡΩΠΟΥΣ ΜΑΣ. ΑΠΟΖΗΜΙΩΣΤΕ ΜΑΣ ΤΩΡΑ ! γερμαναράδες.

[giorgerman]

Re paidia psaxnw na vrw sto google kati gia tin diaskepsi eirinis sto parisi , pou na leei kati gia tis apozimiwseis tis germanias pros tin ellada alla den iparxei tipota. An kapoios exei mia pigi na tin anevasei...Giati distixws nomizw oti auto pou leme gia ta 7.1 dis einai diki mas propaganda...

[PligomenosAetos]

The big problem after all these evolutions is trust between members of EU dear Johann.

OK, the black sheep is Greece for now !!!

But Germany is playing games upon all economies of European South with rumors and depreciation via Spiegel against Greece, Merkel's ministers' interviews supporting Spiegel, aggresive statements and CDS via Deutsche Bank and Merkel's policy delaying support Greece in general.

All these facts drive only to devaluation of Euro and even to the break up of EU.

[JohannMint]

@PligomenosAetos Just quickly, I do not think we disagree as much as you think we do. The obscene cover page was not "DER SPIEGEL" but a magazine called "FOCUS". It may be true that this is going to end up finishing off the EU. Greece will survive and so will all the other European nations. But if it breaks up, then the banks will have played a much bigger ole in that than any magazine cover or the German chancellor.

[PligomenosAetos]

@JohannMint Yes, excuse me it was the magazine FOCUS not Spiegel. What you maybe didn't understand is that all these institutions like magazines, banks, political parties, media, companies etc. which serve the idea of devaluating Euro or the idea of a future break up of EU are employees of the same boss and they cooperate together. My big concern is not their motives but the trend of people to give attention to them and follow their advices.

[panosfye]

@PligomenosAetos The black sheep aint greece germany destroyed our country and never payed us back cause of the marshal treaty imagine how we feel they destroyed our country and now they ask from as to pay them back i feel so angry i feel like i need to kill some germans, They lost the war and we dont use them like slaves as we should do and now because we let them unpunished they want more and more, seriously german people should be our slaves cause they lost the war. why arent our slaves?

[ExtremelyFlamable100]

@panosfye why the fuck should i pay for stuff my grandpa did? still asking germany is retarded, what comes next? asking italy for repayments for the hundreds of years the romans controlled greece?

[JohannMint]

Agree on the main points, except that as no interest rate was ever officially agreed upon, I do not think Greece is in a good position to retroactively add any interest rate to the amount owed.

[PligomenosAetos]

@JohannMint The point of applying interest on initial sum is because Greece lost investment opportunities since 1946 and the borrower (Germany) must compensate lender (Greece) for this too. It's simple, the initial sum was invested in German economy and gave profits. Greece on the other hand was obliged to take loans in order to survive since that time. So, i think it's fair to apply interest.

[JohannMint]

@PligomenosAetos Yes yes, I do understand in principle why interest rates are usually applied when loans are given. However, no type of interest rates was ever agreed upon in the first place. For instance, the interest rate you mentioned (3 percent) is arbitrary. If Germany had ever been sentenced by an independent body (e.g. the court at Nuremberg) to pay a fixed amount of interest, then this would be possible.

[JohannMint]

@JohannMint The lender cannot unilaterally and retroactively put interest rates on loan given in the past. This should be done by an independent body, but I am unaware of any independent body that can determine interest rates for loans retroactively. Referring to missed investment opportunitie and justifying 3 percent basewd on that would be using a type of "what if" history that just isn't reliable.

[JohannMint]

@JohannMint One would have to pre-suppose that Greece would have been fine economically all those years had it not been for that "loan". Several developments in Greece's recent past, especially these last few months, would suggest that this is unlikely.

[PligomenosAetos]

@JohannMint According to what you say above i can suppose that if Germany was about to pay the legal reparations to all her victims from WWI and WWII then she would not have such great economy. Germany was rebuilt with forced "loans" from states like Greece. By the way, there is also a part of WWI reparations which never payed to Greece from Germany.

[JohannMint]

@PligomenosAetos That is "what if" history. "If Germany had not extorted money from Greece in WW2, the Greece would be fine today". It's entirely speculative. Greece has never seen any real prosperity since its war with Ataturk in Asia Minor. The recent crisis suggests to me that missing compensation money or missing reimbursement of stolen money is likely not the root cause of Greece's economic calamities.

[PligomenosAetos]

@JohannMint Greece's real problem were the wars since 1821 until 1949 and not only Asia Minor catastrophy. On the other hand if you seek the real cause of recent Greece's economic calamities you must focus on Merkel's delay to support us.

It is obvious that such kind of policy targets to the underestimation of Euro against Dollar.

[JohannMint]

@PligomenosAetos Yes, Merkel's hesitation may not have been helpful. But if that were the main reason, then we would not have an entire world economy collapsing at the moment. Greece is only 3-5 percent of the European market's economy. Most problems stem from how the economies are built I think - not so much any wars in the past or Merkel's recent behaviour towards Greece. Incidentally, the Dollar is being devalued at the moment, too. Just not against the Euro.

[PligomenosAetos]

@JohannMint Please don't tell me about corrupted politicians etc. because we can talk for centuries upon these matters. As you very correctly said, the answer is that we don't live in an ideal world. Greece is the excuse to devalue Euro for the sake of future cheap German products worlwide. Deutsche Bank in the game too with its CDS against Greece. So, "let the best man win" as the British say !!!

[JohannMint]

@PligomenosAetos Fair enough - I did not mean to offend. I was not talking about any corruption in Greece, either. My reference was more to the international banking system. But as you say - let's just see what happens.

[PligomenosAetos]

@JohannMint As you see there are no previous trials available in order to know if interest claims are arbitrary or not. In case Greece will be the first one who will claim them ... then it is interesting to see the decision of the court from any point of view.

[PligomenosAetos]

@JohannMint Simple interest rate of 3% is the lowest interest rate that exists at first. On the other hand you are right. No independent body forced Germany to pay interest for delayed war reparations so far because nobody could go to court and claim it before 1995. London Agreement of 1953 was in use and it was forbidden for all victim states or individuals to claim anything. Unfortunatelly even after 1995 when "Two Plus Four Agreement " is in use no state appeared to claim anything again.

[JohannMint]

@PligomenosAetos The so-called "2+4" agreement(among many other things) demands from Germany not to claim back any of the territory lost to Poland and Russia after WW2. In return, the question of compensation is no longer a state affair, but an individual affair. In other words, any person or entity claiming to have been victimised by Germany in WW2 would have to engage in a private lawsuit against the FRG.

[PligomenosAetos]

@JohannMint "2+4" Agreement made London Agreement of 1953 simply invalid. According to this we can activate Paris Agreement of 1946 again many scholars say.

On the other hand Greece and other small states were not invited to participate in "2+4" Agreement discussions. This is another point we can impeach !!!

[JohannMint]

@PligomenosAetos Well, the federal republic of Germany did not have a say in any agreement of 1946, therefore, that would be even more problematic than 2+4. I completely agree that it is very far from being ideal, but it is the best settlement to be had at this point. Greece is not the only nation that was not invited, by the way. The 2+4 agreement was between Germany and the nations that defeated and occupied Germany in and after WW2.

[PligomenosAetos]

@JohannMint Same with Greece at 1941. Greece as an occupied country at that time had no right to choose upon giving a loan of 3.5 billion dollars to Germany. As you see winner takes it all in both cases (1941 and 1946). How can you explain that once Greece was among the winners at 1946, she is asking money from the losers of 1946 today.

[JohannMint]

@PligomenosAetos The trouble is, this is 2010. I was not making that comment because I though Germany was being treated unfairly in 1946 - quite the opposite. The problem is that Germany did not exist at all then. The federal republic was founded in 1949. I just do not think it very likely that Germany would acquiesce in reverting to an international agreement from a time when Germany did not even exist. The situation is different today. Germany does exist and, like it or not, it gets a say.

[JohannMint]

@PligomenosAetos 3 percent is the lowest interest rate out there? Perhaps according to rating agencies. The main obstacle however is the fact that the interest rates would have to be imposed retroactively, which would be completely unprecedented. Therefore, I think it is unlikely to happen.

[PligomenosAetos]

@JohannMint Maybe. The only way to find out is to go to court and see what the judge will decide.