I'm not convinced that helping a woman, say, carry some luggage or get through a door when she's loaded down with shopping and babies is going to cause her "psychological "damage.
Speaking personally I only help people do anything for the possibility that they say 'thank you'. Of course I live in California, so what tens to happen when you hold a door open for someone is they walk through and act as if you're not there.
I'm not a regular HealthyAddict viewer, but I do have to say I have no idea how so many folks would misunderstand the point at hand. Well, actually, I lied. I do have an idea, but it's not good news about the people in question so being the that I am, I decide to ignore those possibilities and assume there are other reasons. Call it some sort of religious faith in humanity...
Really guys? We are going to rework the ay that the sexes interact by saying "this is good and that is bad"? How can that work when the answer is different for everyone. I am starting to think that sexism is pure bullshit!
@TheOmegadusk Well what about people arguing to protect women from military service? I don't think Ashley was trying to say "this is sexist" and "this isn't sexist", but rather say that "if something is sexist, even benevolently, then it will be harmful". It's not a judgment on individual acts.
@HonestDiscussioner In my opinion it is not about labeling things as sexist or not, it is about facilitating that paths of individuals to pursue what they may. It is not useful to say "women should not be in combat arms positions" because the vast majority of all people are not good choices for combat service. I don't think that sex should factor into this or much else, but our brains are hardwired to work like this. I don't see that changing unless very slowly (100's of years.).
@HonestDiscussioner My hypothesis is that it isn't "attraction", but something subtler about the evolved mate selection process that reminds women that to be "on the lookout" for a mate, thus increasing their body surveillance. It's a subtle distinction that may require some lesbian test subjects to test properly. Regardless, I love these videos on sexism, and I agree with HealthyAddict and all of your videos so far, keep it up!
Lats if i get it right? If i help a woman and she thinks that i helped her because she is a woman, then it can be damaging to her. If i don't help her, she feels better but i feel like an asshole. I can live with that.
@Uhmu45 " . . .she thinks that i helped her because she is a woman, then it can be damaging to her"
No, that's not the point. An analogy: You see a man walk up to someone and shoot them in the chest at point blank range. You are horrified and traumatized. What you (somehow) where never privy to, was that it was actually part of a movie being shot, and no one was hurt.
This shows that watching someone getting shot can be traumatizing, it's not a condemnation of people fake shootings in movies.
You mentioned that she is smart, active in the community and all that....but you left out that she's FREAKIN' HOT! I'd open the door for her ANY day.
Oh...Hi, Ashley...can't say how great it was to see you again at DragonCon....uh...I'll just be over here remembering that you are equal to me in every way....take care now....
Oh and get your sexy ass to bed....
(Couldn't resist...I loved that line in her video)
This doesn't repair much of the issue for me. It's not my business how someone else perceives my act of kindness. If it's a woman, she has no idea if I'd have done the same thing for a man or not. I have nothing to do with whether she sees my kindness as exclusively due to her gender. Ashley would have made a much stronger point if she directed her video to those women who tend to react that way and explain that they shouldn't let acts of benevolence affect them like that, as most aren't sexist.
@GrapplingIgnorance "It's not my business how someone else perceives my act of kindness."
That wasn't really the point. Like I said, Ashley wasn't putting the blame nor the burden on you. She said "be as nice as you feel is warranted, no worries". Her point was that ANY perception of benevolent sexism could be harmful, therefore the legitimate acts of benevolent sexism were harmful. The whole point was to counter the perception "benevolent acts of sexism are okay" not to point to what is sexist
@HonestDiscussioner I consider all genuinely benevolent acts to be okay. If they are accompanied by sexist remarks, as in her video, those remarks are the problem, and the sexist motivation can be directly confronted. I think she'd be best served to separate the issues of benevolence and sexism, and argue for why one is okay, and the other part is not, rather than taking the approach that doing nice things for women can still lead to them feeling self conscious and offended.
Okay, so is keeping women out of the military okay when you think it's because women won't be able to handle the experience?
"rather than . . . doing nice things for women can still lead to them feeling self conscious"
I can see how you'd take it to mean that, I did at first, but rather her point was an act of sexism, even done with good intentions, can still be harmful. Not all kindness to women is sexist though.
@HonestDiscussioner I don't consider taking a woman's rights away to be benevolent. If (in that example) they were stopping women from being forced to vote they'd have a case.
I don't see the point at all in saying that even acts where you intend to do well can be sexist. Okay? So plenty of bad things can happen when intentions are good. is this something people don't know or would argue against? it would be more helpful to give examples and explanations for what we may be doing wrong.
@GrapplingIgnorance I think we're missing each other on definitions. I'd say benevolence is done by intentions, that basically you mean well in what you're doing. Sexist is when you're applying a belief that there is a trait inherent to a gender where none actually exists, so I don't see how it is impossible or even unlikely that you can believe there is a trait inherent to a gender and act upon that belief in a well-intentioned way.
@HonestDiscussioner I agree with those definition of benevolent. I would call your definition of sexism to simply be inaccurate. If you believed women were inherently better parents than fathers, I wouldn't consider you sexist against women for ascribing them an inherent trait that isn't really there. I'd consider you inaccurate. My basic definition of sexism is discrimination against a gender and/or an attitude/actions that consider one gender superior over the other.
I like it when men open doors for me and sometimes I hold a door open for them too... Out of courtesy. I wouldn't want the door to shut in my face, so why let it shut in theirs. Also, if they are pushing something in or out the door, like the Diet Coke man at the 7/11 for example, it is nice if someone helps and holds the door open for them.
@HonestDiscussioner I've had women hold the door open for me and vice versa. To me, it is more of a courtesy than it is chivalry, although some chivalry I don't mind too much. ie- I'm 4' 11" and I just love it when I'm struggling to reach something in the grocery store and a handsome man comes along and rescues me from my struggle by getting something down for me. :) Again, to me that's a courtesy, and sexism. I guess I have no issues with it, if I know they are trying to help or be nice
@MrianaTroi If it's a courtesy done to someone because they are a fellow human being, then that's totally fine. The idea of Chivarly that HA was talking about is when you feel men should be obligated to hold the door open for women because they are men and men should always put women on a pedestal, a pedestal to protect them from all those manly things that men do like exert themselves.
@HonestDiscussioner Yes, now that gets my goat. I don't like it when a man says, "You need a man", like my first ex-husband says. I don't "need" a man for anything, but if they want to help, then that's great. Of course, I think he has other things in mind when he talks about "needing" a man, which is perverted, not thinking with the grey matter in his skull, but rather thinking with something down south, IMO. That sort of thinking ticks me off.
We couldn't ask if they found the RA attractive - because if they did then they risk the person could catch on to what the study was really about. =/
As far as the glance goes, we can't say that's what it was. Some studies show that it can, but it's really hard to say that's what it was in that study. It'd have to be replicated far more yet.
I'm a member of the SSA, and I attended the conference this year in Columbus, OH. I was blown away by the courage and ambition of the high school students I met there. I heard presentations from many young people standing up for reason while being ridiculed, dismissed, and ostracized by their peers and communities. It's only a few bucks to become a member, and I encourage everyone to support these students. And yes, Ashley does a fantastic job for them!
after watching this video, I'm a little confused. It seemed to me like in her initial video she considered chivalry and benevolent sexism to be the same thing. Did I misunderstand her?
Communication without a clearly defined common frame of reference can be hard. After a couple of years of observation I'm leaning towards that being the primary cause of disagreement both in real life and on YouTube.
That's cool. I agreed with her for the most part. My only comment was not to confuse kindness that would be done regardless of gender, with sexism. I also mentioned not confusing it with a man who simply wants a woman to like him.
It sounds like we actually do agree 100%. She should have added that to the video.
So in a nutshell. Women have self-esteem issues, and those issues can be exacerbated if they perceive that the reason someone is being nice to them is because they are a woman?
@TheNakedAtheist Moreso that women have been reinforced with cultural stereotypes that can cause psychological harm, as seen when even reminded of it. I still have problem with the study, but there's a whole shit ton of evidence to suggest that our culture puts an unnecessary strain on female psyche which pushes them to values their bodies above all else.
I haven't read the study, nor do I know the details, but it seems to me if a petite male regularly had larger males, and even women offering to help him carry things, or opening door for him, and treating him as weak he'd develop self esteem issues as well, or at those issues he has with his size would be exacerbated. So is the problem a male vs female one, or a stronger vs weaker one?
@TheNakedAtheist Well recall, these are files, not heavy equipment. Sure, if you constantly didn't let a man do anything, that would manifest in self-esteem problems, but that sorta proves the point, doesn't it?
It may prove that it's a issue of size, and strength, but not gender. I mean there is a difference between helping a woman because she's a woman, and helping a woman because generally she's smaller, and weaker isn't there?
Yeah, I don't think people would feel particularly inclined to open a door, or offer to help carry stuff for a 6'4" muscular looking woman, unless they were trying to hit on her.
@TheNakedAtheist It doesn't have to be so over the top. She can be 5'9 and only be slightly toned in a room with relatively weak men. Let's also make her all dressed up and looking very feminine.
Wouldn't we want the difference to be at least as significant as the difference in size between the average male, and the average female. (5"). I would say even more so since a lifetime of experience has taught us that women have less strength, so we'd have to make the test female clearly appear to them to be stronger than they are.
@TheNakedAtheist I don't think so, it just has to look like she wouldn't need any help, or that the men were obviously weaker just because they were way below the male average.
Well, it kinda wasn't the question, because it was replying to your comment about a woman being the physically strongest person, but my answer remains the same.
I don't do things like that, and don't really understand it.
I used to work lifting these fairly heavy bags, and a woman who worked with me was actually physically stronger than I, yet said she "shouldn't have to do it".
That's the point I was making. It's more often the female expecting help than the male offering it. I've worked construction, in a sawmill, and in a clothing factory during my lifetime, and while women were capable of doing the jobs they invariably looked to the men to do the lions share when it came to the heaviest work. I'm sure all these liberal intellectual females have no problem opening a door, or lifting a file...
...but I wonder how quickly someone like Ashley would start batting her eyes at the nearest guy when it comes to lifting 50lb bags of cement. Women are just as guilty, if not more so, of propagating those types of incidents as men.
That's a study I'd like to see. Is it men who more often take the initiative, and carry the 50lb bag for the woman, or is it the women who either outright ask for help, or otherwise indicate their desire for a big strong man to help them. Unfortunately this is one of those studies like trying to find out if single parents on average raise children as well as 2 parents. There's not enough to gain, or too much to lose depending on the answers.
I think the point I was getting at is that enlightened educated women who don't expect men to treat them as the "weaker sex" may not realize that the majority IMO of their less enlightened blue collar counterparts haven't gotten the memo.
@TheNakedAtheist "I think the point I was getting at is that enlightened educated women who don't expect men to treat them as the "weaker sex" may not realize that the majority IMO of their less enlightened blue collar counterparts haven't gotten the memo."
What made you think that the majority of women think that way?
I don't think she was inarticulate in her original video at all. But lots of people (a) extrapolated and (b) make something bigger than it is, (c) assumed things she never said (like "don't be helpful" etc). Also some (d) had an axe to grind, because they like certain kinds of sexisms, they like traditional gender roles, etc etc.
@socrates856-But lots of people (a) extrapolated and (b) make something bigger than it is
Ordinarily when someone points out a problem they will either suggest a solution, or solicit suggestions for a solution. Unless the solution is evident, or at least implied. For example "over exposure to the sun causes cancer" Evident solution "avoid over exposure to the sun". While never stated the implied to solution to the problem Ashley presents is "don't be nice to women".
@TheNakedAtheist Not at all. The solution is quite simply to not make gender-stereotypical assumption and to be nice to people in general. I find it rather embarassing that this even has to be spelled out.
But people wanted to make it out to be that bad, that's why they assume that even though HA said precisely that that is not what she means.
Except, and I may be wrong, I think if it's generally a woman's problem not the mans. Far more often I find a woman looking to me to open the door when we arrive at one at the same time, and even sighing, and acting like I'm an asshole if I don't open the door, and she has to open it for both of us, or expecting me to offer to help carry things, than I find them being offended when I take the initiative to help. Men don't have those expectations of other men.
So it's hardly as simple as you make it out. The fact that you open the door for everyone isn't going to be obvious to someone who is predisposed to seeing such an act as sexist.
@TheNakedAtheist I think we do good not jumping too quick to conclusions or assumptions what "woman's" and "men's" problems are. Also the door opening thing has turned into a canard. Again, HA never said anywhere that people should not hold the door open for each other. So can we stop repeating it? Nor has she said that it's "offensive".
@socrates856-HA never said anywhere that people should not hold the door open for each other
In the original "You are sexist" opening the door was specifically mentioned as an example of benevolent sexism. It was certainly implied that it's something you shouldn't do if you don't want to appear sexist. And offensive might be the wrong word, perhaps harmful (based on studies she cited) is more accurate.
@TheNakedAtheist "Far more often I find a woman looking to me to open the door when we arrive at one at the same time, and even sighing, and acting like I'm an asshole if I don't open the door,"
Indeed. Happens pretty often.
I do the door-hold for anyone who needs it, or if it would be rude to not do it. Although I do admit that the range on that may increase slightly depending on attractiveness of approaching woman :)
@DiwataMan Yes, I believe that was a mistake on her part, and she wasn't being careful enough. She was trying to compress the video as much as she could.
Personally, I got that hat was what she was saying, and I think most others did as well, including ie. Coughlan. However, the problem with her video was that it left, me at least, with the confused feeling of "then what am I supposed to do".
I didn't think she said that a man should never help a woman. But the problem is, she didn't identify any way for a woman to discern the difference between politeness and paternalism.
Lacking that, it can lead to many misunderstandings.
@SiriusMined i think that speaks to the point of the subject as she raised it, that it was a miscommunication stemming from finding just the right way to zero in on her point.as i watched one of the sexism vids, i recall she was trying to produce it in under 10 minutes before having to leave for work.it would be easy overlook that point.also,it was probably deserved a longer video than she allowed time for.thankfully, she is a very reasonable person and open to discussion,as are many others here
@SiriusMined paternalism is a good thing. if feminists want to try and paint it as a bad thing, than they are going to have a whole lot of explaining to do. paternalism is the male part of maternal instincts. that is to say, if you want to keep things fair, you cannot act maternal and think of it as good while at the same thing viewing paternal acts as bad. doing so is blatantly sexist and in no way is seeking equality.
Interesting comment. Except it seems to me that the "maternal instinct" is less gender specific. Women express maternalism to males, and females young, or old, while men generally express paternalism to women, and children only.
@TheNakedAtheist the maternal instinct is to nurture and to take care of something. the paternal instinct is to teach and inform while guiding something. both men and women display maternal and paternal instincts and behavior. however women more commonly express maternal behavior than paternal behavior while men more commonly express paternal behavior. this is why they are linked to the genders. however they are both natural behaviors and one is not better than the other.
@SiriusMined-the problem is, she didn't identify any way for a woman to discern the difference between politeness and paternalism.
Exactly. And while she never specifically said that men should never help women it is implied to a degree given that she never even framed discerning the difference between politeness and paternalism as the problem.
Healthyaddict and a lot of us [both men and women btw] know you can make your own sandwich and you can make some for all of us while your at it if you wanted to.
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guitar19904 1 month ago
@guitar19904 Let me guess? Didn't watch the video before you responded, eh? I've done that before . . .
HonestDiscussioner 1 month ago
@HonestDiscussioner
yea lol i never watched the full vid, my bad. then i realised it wasnt serious so i deleted my comment ;P
guitar19904 1 month ago
I'm not convinced that helping a woman, say, carry some luggage or get through a door when she's loaded down with shopping and babies is going to cause her "psychological "damage.
Speaking personally I only help people do anything for the possibility that they say 'thank you'. Of course I live in California, so what tens to happen when you hold a door open for someone is they walk through and act as if you're not there.
geffel 4 months ago
I'm not a regular HealthyAddict viewer, but I do have to say I have no idea how so many folks would misunderstand the point at hand. Well, actually, I lied. I do have an idea, but it's not good news about the people in question so being the that I am, I decide to ignore those possibilities and assume there are other reasons. Call it some sort of religious faith in humanity...
Brandt761 4 months ago
Really guys? We are going to rework the ay that the sexes interact by saying "this is good and that is bad"? How can that work when the answer is different for everyone. I am starting to think that sexism is pure bullshit!
TheOmegadusk 4 months ago
@TheOmegadusk Well what about people arguing to protect women from military service? I don't think Ashley was trying to say "this is sexist" and "this isn't sexist", but rather say that "if something is sexist, even benevolently, then it will be harmful". It's not a judgment on individual acts.
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
@HonestDiscussioner In my opinion it is not about labeling things as sexist or not, it is about facilitating that paths of individuals to pursue what they may. It is not useful to say "women should not be in combat arms positions" because the vast majority of all people are not good choices for combat service. I don't think that sex should factor into this or much else, but our brains are hardwired to work like this. I don't see that changing unless very slowly (100's of years.).
TheOmegadusk 4 months ago
@HonestDiscussioner My hypothesis is that it isn't "attraction", but something subtler about the evolved mate selection process that reminds women that to be "on the lookout" for a mate, thus increasing their body surveillance. It's a subtle distinction that may require some lesbian test subjects to test properly. Regardless, I love these videos on sexism, and I agree with HealthyAddict and all of your videos so far, keep it up!
Nonefrog 4 months ago
@lolwuthomes I wouldn't say that. Ashley's got a loyal following.
How could no one take it seriously until a man weighed in on it, if a man took it seriously by weighing in on it before any others?
Like, no man would weigh in on it then because they wouldn't be taking it seriously.
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
Lats if i get it right? If i help a woman and she thinks that i helped her because she is a woman, then it can be damaging to her. If i don't help her, she feels better but i feel like an asshole. I can live with that.
Uhmu45 4 months ago
@Uhmu45 " . . .she thinks that i helped her because she is a woman, then it can be damaging to her"
No, that's not the point. An analogy: You see a man walk up to someone and shoot them in the chest at point blank range. You are horrified and traumatized. What you (somehow) where never privy to, was that it was actually part of a movie being shot, and no one was hurt.
This shows that watching someone getting shot can be traumatizing, it's not a condemnation of people fake shootings in movies.
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
@HonestDiscussioner Oki, i can see the point if we change shooting people with deleting my gaming account.
Uhmu45 4 months ago
You mentioned that she is smart, active in the community and all that....but you left out that she's FREAKIN' HOT! I'd open the door for her ANY day.
Oh...Hi, Ashley...can't say how great it was to see you again at DragonCon....uh...I'll just be over here remembering that you are equal to me in every way....take care now....
Oh and get your sexy ass to bed....
(Couldn't resist...I loved that line in her video)
KingHeathen 4 months ago
@KingHeathen It's the KING! Good to see you're alive!
I may be doing a stickam in the upcoming weeks, and I have another invite to send your way.
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
@HonestDiscussioner In the immortal words of Richard Pryor..."I ain't dead yet!"
Yeah, it's been a long time since I've been on Stickam...let me know when.
KingHeathen 4 months ago
This doesn't repair much of the issue for me. It's not my business how someone else perceives my act of kindness. If it's a woman, she has no idea if I'd have done the same thing for a man or not. I have nothing to do with whether she sees my kindness as exclusively due to her gender. Ashley would have made a much stronger point if she directed her video to those women who tend to react that way and explain that they shouldn't let acts of benevolence affect them like that, as most aren't sexist.
GrapplingIgnorance 4 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance "It's not my business how someone else perceives my act of kindness."
That wasn't really the point. Like I said, Ashley wasn't putting the blame nor the burden on you. She said "be as nice as you feel is warranted, no worries". Her point was that ANY perception of benevolent sexism could be harmful, therefore the legitimate acts of benevolent sexism were harmful. The whole point was to counter the perception "benevolent acts of sexism are okay" not to point to what is sexist
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
@HonestDiscussioner I consider all genuinely benevolent acts to be okay. If they are accompanied by sexist remarks, as in her video, those remarks are the problem, and the sexist motivation can be directly confronted. I think she'd be best served to separate the issues of benevolence and sexism, and argue for why one is okay, and the other part is not, rather than taking the approach that doing nice things for women can still lead to them feeling self conscious and offended.
GrapplingIgnorance 4 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance "I consider all genuinely benevolent acts to be okay."
Okay, so is keeping women out of the military okay when you think it's because women won't be able to handle the experience?
"rather than . . . doing nice things for women can still lead to them feeling self conscious"
I can see how you'd take it to mean that, I did at first, but rather her point was an act of sexism, even done with good intentions, can still be harmful. Not all kindness to women is sexist though.
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
@HonestDiscussioner there are no good reasons for keeping women out of the military. Period.
Brandt761 4 months ago
@Brandt761 But . . they have VAGINAS!
;-)
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
@Brandt761
Very good.
geffel 4 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance Oh, and how about this:
i.imgur (dot) com/0I10N (dot) jpg
Do you think the act of preventing women's suffrage is okay as well, assuming they are doing it to protect women from politics?
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
@HonestDiscussioner I don't consider taking a woman's rights away to be benevolent. If (in that example) they were stopping women from being forced to vote they'd have a case.
I don't see the point at all in saying that even acts where you intend to do well can be sexist. Okay? So plenty of bad things can happen when intentions are good. is this something people don't know or would argue against? it would be more helpful to give examples and explanations for what we may be doing wrong.
GrapplingIgnorance 4 months ago
@GrapplingIgnorance I think we're missing each other on definitions. I'd say benevolence is done by intentions, that basically you mean well in what you're doing. Sexist is when you're applying a belief that there is a trait inherent to a gender where none actually exists, so I don't see how it is impossible or even unlikely that you can believe there is a trait inherent to a gender and act upon that belief in a well-intentioned way.
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
@HonestDiscussioner I agree with those definition of benevolent. I would call your definition of sexism to simply be inaccurate. If you believed women were inherently better parents than fathers, I wouldn't consider you sexist against women for ascribing them an inherent trait that isn't really there. I'd consider you inaccurate. My basic definition of sexism is discrimination against a gender and/or an attitude/actions that consider one gender superior over the other.
GrapplingIgnorance 4 months ago
I like it when men open doors for me and sometimes I hold a door open for them too... Out of courtesy. I wouldn't want the door to shut in my face, so why let it shut in theirs. Also, if they are pushing something in or out the door, like the Diet Coke man at the 7/11 for example, it is nice if someone helps and holds the door open for them.
MrianaTroi 4 months ago
@MrianaTroi The issue would only be the person that holds to door open for a woman, but not a man.
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
@HonestDiscussioner I've had women hold the door open for me and vice versa. To me, it is more of a courtesy than it is chivalry, although some chivalry I don't mind too much. ie- I'm 4' 11" and I just love it when I'm struggling to reach something in the grocery store and a handsome man comes along and rescues me from my struggle by getting something down for me. :) Again, to me that's a courtesy, and sexism. I guess I have no issues with it, if I know they are trying to help or be nice
MrianaTroi 4 months ago
@MrianaTroi I left out the word 'not' before 'sexism'.
MrianaTroi 4 months ago
@MrianaTroi If it's a courtesy done to someone because they are a fellow human being, then that's totally fine. The idea of Chivarly that HA was talking about is when you feel men should be obligated to hold the door open for women because they are men and men should always put women on a pedestal, a pedestal to protect them from all those manly things that men do like exert themselves.
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
@HonestDiscussioner Yes, now that gets my goat. I don't like it when a man says, "You need a man", like my first ex-husband says. I don't "need" a man for anything, but if they want to help, then that's great. Of course, I think he has other things in mind when he talks about "needing" a man, which is perverted, not thinking with the grey matter in his skull, but rather thinking with something down south, IMO. That sort of thinking ticks me off.
MrianaTroi 4 months ago
Oh - and the study...
We couldn't ask if they found the RA attractive - because if they did then they risk the person could catch on to what the study was really about. =/
As far as the glance goes, we can't say that's what it was. Some studies show that it can, but it's really hard to say that's what it was in that study. It'd have to be replicated far more yet.
healthyaddict 4 months ago
Glad to see you upload this. :)
Anyways it's going to take a huge cultural change to prevent the types of results we see in these studies.
Overall, I think you've pretty much got my point for the most part now. :)
healthyaddict 4 months ago
@healthyaddict It wouldn't be very honest for me to not clarify things, now would it? ;-)
Glad I bridge some communications here.
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
so i should reverse everything you say in this video... "but only on opposite day"?
joshuahardy95 4 months ago
@joshuahardy95 Nah, just the title.
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
I'm a member of the SSA, and I attended the conference this year in Columbus, OH. I was blown away by the courage and ambition of the high school students I met there. I heard presentations from many young people standing up for reason while being ridiculed, dismissed, and ostracized by their peers and communities. It's only a few bucks to become a member, and I encourage everyone to support these students. And yes, Ashley does a fantastic job for them!
stevetheskeptic 4 months ago
after watching this video, I'm a little confused. It seemed to me like in her initial video she considered chivalry and benevolent sexism to be the same thing. Did I misunderstand her?
gambleor 4 months ago
@gambleor Short answer: slightly. Will go into further detail later.
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
And I was so totally expecting you to go all out with f-bombs and bird flipping with a video title like that...
(sarcasm of course...but it would have been a hilarious sight : P )
vipertaja 4 months ago
Now HD, you're not just making this video to help her out because she's a woman, are you?
pokekid716 4 months ago
@pokekid716 Nope, it's because she's awesome.
The red hair doesn't hurt though. But that's being hairist.
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
Communication without a clearly defined common frame of reference can be hard. After a couple of years of observation I'm leaning towards that being the primary cause of disagreement both in real life and on YouTube.
karakzanreal 4 months ago
That's cool. I agreed with her for the most part. My only comment was not to confuse kindness that would be done regardless of gender, with sexism. I also mentioned not confusing it with a man who simply wants a woman to like him.
It sounds like we actually do agree 100%. She should have added that to the video.
Even as is, I thought it was a good video though.
sonnygll 4 months ago
So in a nutshell. Women have self-esteem issues, and those issues can be exacerbated if they perceive that the reason someone is being nice to them is because they are a woman?
TheNakedAtheist 4 months ago
@TheNakedAtheist Moreso that women have been reinforced with cultural stereotypes that can cause psychological harm, as seen when even reminded of it. I still have problem with the study, but there's a whole shit ton of evidence to suggest that our culture puts an unnecessary strain on female psyche which pushes them to values their bodies above all else.
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
@HonestDiscussioner
I haven't read the study, nor do I know the details, but it seems to me if a petite male regularly had larger males, and even women offering to help him carry things, or opening door for him, and treating him as weak he'd develop self esteem issues as well, or at those issues he has with his size would be exacerbated. So is the problem a male vs female one, or a stronger vs weaker one?
TheNakedAtheist 4 months ago
@TheNakedAtheist Well recall, these are files, not heavy equipment. Sure, if you constantly didn't let a man do anything, that would manifest in self-esteem problems, but that sorta proves the point, doesn't it?
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
@HonestDiscussioner-but that sorta proves the point, doesn't it?
It may prove that it's a issue of size, and strength, but not gender. I mean there is a difference between helping a woman because she's a woman, and helping a woman because generally she's smaller, and weaker isn't there?
TheNakedAtheist 4 months ago
@TheNakedAtheist Let's put a woman in that situation that is in fact the physically stronger person in the room and see what happens.
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
@HonestDiscussioner
Yeah, I don't think people would feel particularly inclined to open a door, or offer to help carry stuff for a 6'4" muscular looking woman, unless they were trying to hit on her.
TheNakedAtheist 4 months ago
@TheNakedAtheist It doesn't have to be so over the top. She can be 5'9 and only be slightly toned in a room with relatively weak men. Let's also make her all dressed up and looking very feminine.
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
@HonestDiscussioner
Wouldn't we want the difference to be at least as significant as the difference in size between the average male, and the average female. (5"). I would say even more so since a lifetime of experience has taught us that women have less strength, so we'd have to make the test female clearly appear to them to be stronger than they are.
TheNakedAtheist 4 months ago
@TheNakedAtheist I don't think so, it just has to look like she wouldn't need any help, or that the men were obviously weaker just because they were way below the male average.
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
@HonestDiscussioner Speaking for myself, her height and build wouldn't make even the slightest difference to me.
Skindoggiedog 4 months ago
@Skindoggiedog Would her gender though, is the question.
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
@HonestDiscussioner "Would her gender though, is the question."
Well, it kinda wasn't the question, because it was replying to your comment about a woman being the physically strongest person, but my answer remains the same.
I don't do things like that, and don't really understand it.
I used to work lifting these fairly heavy bags, and a woman who worked with me was actually physically stronger than I, yet said she "shouldn't have to do it".
I still don't know why she thought/said that.
Skindoggiedog 4 months ago
@Skindoggiedog
That's the point I was making. It's more often the female expecting help than the male offering it. I've worked construction, in a sawmill, and in a clothing factory during my lifetime, and while women were capable of doing the jobs they invariably looked to the men to do the lions share when it came to the heaviest work. I'm sure all these liberal intellectual females have no problem opening a door, or lifting a file...
(cont)
TheNakedAtheist 4 months ago
(cont)
...but I wonder how quickly someone like Ashley would start batting her eyes at the nearest guy when it comes to lifting 50lb bags of cement. Women are just as guilty, if not more so, of propagating those types of incidents as men.
TheNakedAtheist 4 months ago
Continued...
That's a study I'd like to see. Is it men who more often take the initiative, and carry the 50lb bag for the woman, or is it the women who either outright ask for help, or otherwise indicate their desire for a big strong man to help them. Unfortunately this is one of those studies like trying to find out if single parents on average raise children as well as 2 parents. There's not enough to gain, or too much to lose depending on the answers.
TheNakedAtheist 4 months ago
@TheNakedAtheist "It's more often the female expecting help than the male offering it."
That's been my experience, too, but I'm not sure we could generalize so broadly about others' experiences.
I suspect it's a lot closer to even; we just notice women expecting it more, because that's the reaction we're used to.
Skindoggiedog 4 months ago
@Skindoggiedog
I think the point I was getting at is that enlightened educated women who don't expect men to treat them as the "weaker sex" may not realize that the majority IMO of their less enlightened blue collar counterparts haven't gotten the memo.
TheNakedAtheist 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TheNakedAtheist "I think the point I was getting at is that enlightened educated women who don't expect men to treat them as the "weaker sex" may not realize that the majority IMO of their less enlightened blue collar counterparts haven't gotten the memo."
What made you think that the majority of women think that way?
Skindoggiedog 4 months ago
I don't think she was inarticulate in her original video at all. But lots of people (a) extrapolated and (b) make something bigger than it is, (c) assumed things she never said (like "don't be helpful" etc). Also some (d) had an axe to grind, because they like certain kinds of sexisms, they like traditional gender roles, etc etc.
socrates856 4 months ago
@socrates856-But lots of people (a) extrapolated and (b) make something bigger than it is
Ordinarily when someone points out a problem they will either suggest a solution, or solicit suggestions for a solution. Unless the solution is evident, or at least implied. For example "over exposure to the sun causes cancer" Evident solution "avoid over exposure to the sun". While never stated the implied to solution to the problem Ashley presents is "don't be nice to women".
TheNakedAtheist 4 months ago
Continued...
My point being it wasn't people's extrapolations that were the problem, it was her lack of clarity.
TheNakedAtheist 4 months ago
@TheNakedAtheist Not at all. The solution is quite simply to not make gender-stereotypical assumption and to be nice to people in general. I find it rather embarassing that this even has to be spelled out.
But people wanted to make it out to be that bad, that's why they assume that even though HA said precisely that that is not what she means.
socrates856 4 months ago
@socrates856
Except, and I may be wrong, I think if it's generally a woman's problem not the mans. Far more often I find a woman looking to me to open the door when we arrive at one at the same time, and even sighing, and acting like I'm an asshole if I don't open the door, and she has to open it for both of us, or expecting me to offer to help carry things, than I find them being offended when I take the initiative to help. Men don't have those expectations of other men.
(cont)
TheNakedAtheist 4 months ago
(cont)
So it's hardly as simple as you make it out. The fact that you open the door for everyone isn't going to be obvious to someone who is predisposed to seeing such an act as sexist.
TheNakedAtheist 4 months ago
@TheNakedAtheist I think we do good not jumping too quick to conclusions or assumptions what "woman's" and "men's" problems are. Also the door opening thing has turned into a canard. Again, HA never said anywhere that people should not hold the door open for each other. So can we stop repeating it? Nor has she said that it's "offensive".
socrates856 4 months ago
@socrates856-HA never said anywhere that people should not hold the door open for each other
In the original "You are sexist" opening the door was specifically mentioned as an example of benevolent sexism. It was certainly implied that it's something you shouldn't do if you don't want to appear sexist. And offensive might be the wrong word, perhaps harmful (based on studies she cited) is more accurate.
TheNakedAtheist 4 months ago
@TheNakedAtheist "Far more often I find a woman looking to me to open the door when we arrive at one at the same time, and even sighing, and acting like I'm an asshole if I don't open the door,"
Indeed. Happens pretty often.
I do the door-hold for anyone who needs it, or if it would be rude to not do it. Although I do admit that the range on that may increase slightly depending on attractiveness of approaching woman :)
Skindoggiedog 4 months ago
i love ashley, just this topic is so blah to me and seems so silly... even with a clear understanding about what she meant.
MsRobotRock 4 months ago
All this doublespeak is maddening. From her video /watch?v=ogQJwc-0fv0
-Study of benevolent sexism
-Man picks up files
@ 4:55 "The guy says 'oh, here, let me get that for you.' which is kind of a benevolent sexist act."
@ 5:13 "the woman sitting, in the room just as much as witnessing the benevolent sexist act..."
@ 5:50 "benevolent sexism is bad...harmful as hostile sexism...seems positive...harmful..."
DiwataMan 4 months ago
@DiwataMan Yes, I believe that was a mistake on her part, and she wasn't being careful enough. She was trying to compress the video as much as she could.
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
Isn't the opposite of "Sucks" , "Blows" ?
FurieMan 4 months ago
@FurieMan Nope. It's "doesn't suck".
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
I think she is crazy. Thats it
StopFear 4 months ago
men are always wrong ,I get it .lols
sausage4mash 4 months ago
@sausage4mash It's about damn time you get it!
HonestDiscussioner 4 months ago
@HonestDiscussioner is that fighting talk ,ah
sausage4mash 4 months ago
Personally, I got that hat was what she was saying, and I think most others did as well, including ie. Coughlan. However, the problem with her video was that it left, me at least, with the confused feeling of "then what am I supposed to do".
1stCainite 4 months ago
Well, it's clarifying videos like this that make your discussions... well, honest. Glad you guys cleared that up; certainly explains a bit to me.
KillgoreOv 4 months ago
I didn't think she said that a man should never help a woman. But the problem is, she didn't identify any way for a woman to discern the difference between politeness and paternalism.
Lacking that, it can lead to many misunderstandings.
SiriusMined 4 months ago 7
@SiriusMined i think that speaks to the point of the subject as she raised it, that it was a miscommunication stemming from finding just the right way to zero in on her point.as i watched one of the sexism vids, i recall she was trying to produce it in under 10 minutes before having to leave for work.it would be easy overlook that point.also,it was probably deserved a longer video than she allowed time for.thankfully, she is a very reasonable person and open to discussion,as are many others here
practicalmagic9 4 months ago
@SiriusMined paternalism is a good thing. if feminists want to try and paint it as a bad thing, than they are going to have a whole lot of explaining to do. paternalism is the male part of maternal instincts. that is to say, if you want to keep things fair, you cannot act maternal and think of it as good while at the same thing viewing paternal acts as bad. doing so is blatantly sexist and in no way is seeking equality.
greycloud24 4 months ago
@greycloud24
Interesting comment. Except it seems to me that the "maternal instinct" is less gender specific. Women express maternalism to males, and females young, or old, while men generally express paternalism to women, and children only.
TheNakedAtheist 4 months ago
@TheNakedAtheist the maternal instinct is to nurture and to take care of something. the paternal instinct is to teach and inform while guiding something. both men and women display maternal and paternal instincts and behavior. however women more commonly express maternal behavior than paternal behavior while men more commonly express paternal behavior. this is why they are linked to the genders. however they are both natural behaviors and one is not better than the other.
greycloud24 4 months ago
@SiriusMined-the problem is, she didn't identify any way for a woman to discern the difference between politeness and paternalism.
Exactly. And while she never specifically said that men should never help women it is implied to a degree given that she never even framed discerning the difference between politeness and paternalism as the problem.
TheNakedAtheist 4 months ago
I am not watching her, she hasn't made me a cheese sandwhich yet. ;-)
TheSpankymonkey 4 months ago
@TheSpankymonkey
Healthyaddict and a lot of us [both men and women btw] know you can make your own sandwich and you can make some for all of us while your at it if you wanted to.
2bsirius 4 months ago
You're at it...NOT your...Doh!
2bsirius 4 months ago