Good speaker and good idea but not properly implemented in HR25 and S13 of 2011 unfortunately both of those are just a 7 year money grab by the rich that would result in a poorer country, middle class, and working poor class. Those bills need to be read in entirety and then any but the super rich who are also without ethics would be against them.
Is the FT/NASTI progressive or regressive?Here is the quote from one of the Beacon Hill treatises on the AFT site:
"The key result of the foregoing discussion is that it matters fundamentally how one frames the discussion of the distributional effects of the FairTax. When people are sorted by expenditure per capita, the FairTax is progressive; when they are sorted by income per capita, it is regressive."
Those who undertand what this means now understand what a bad idea the "Fair" Tax is.
Is the FT/NASTI progressive or regressive?Here is the quote from one of the Beacon Hill treatises on the AFT site:
"The key result of the foregoing discussion is that it matters fundamentally how one frames the discussion of the distributional effects of the FairTax. When people are sorted by expenditure per capita, the FairTax is progressive; when they are sorted by income per capita, it is regressive."
Those who undertand what this means now understand what a bad idea the "Fair" Tax is.
The "Fair" Tax is a horrible idea and would hammer the middleclasses. This is from fairtaxorg's OWN research: "Not every household would benefit equally, however. (edit) Mid-income category households* would lose because the FairTax would impose a relatively higher tax rate on them." *tinyurl 593htl page 30 on, paying attention to Table 13 yrs 7-8
The "Fair" Tax is basically class warfare,the wealthy declaring war on the middleclasses by raising their effective tax rates.It would, by Americans for Fair Taxation's own admission, raise the effective tax rate of those making from $15,000 to $150,000 a year while lowering the effective rate of those making $150,000 and up a year. Source:tinyurl 593htl, page 30 on -pay particular attention to table 13, years 7-8 --would you be "better off" if your income dropped from $25k to less than $10k?
Think this through to see why the "embedded taxes" argument is false-- if one considers TAXES as embedded in the price item (rather than seeing them as something paid at DIFFERENT RATES by workers from emb. WAGES), If you state prices with tax will basically not rise because of "emb. taxes" removal-- thus your takehome pay stays the SAME as now--how are "illegals" paying taxes? Your check is the same, items cost same.
Answer: YOU are still paying, and MORE, by your paycheck staying the same.
@1969was1969 cont) Think -- if you currently get a refund of some of the money deducted
from your check, you will not get that money under the FT, your employer has to keep it in the "prices remain the same" scenario, it is still a cost to him otherwise. If you currently pay in an amount from your wages-- your employer would have to LOWER your wages by that amount under the "Fair" Tax, so the amount you have in the end would still be the same-- again, it is STILL a cost to him otherwise.
@1969was1969 cont) Think -- if you currently get a refund of some of the money deducted from your check, you will not get that money under the FT, your employer has to keep it in the "prices remain the same" scenario, it is still a cost to him otherwise. If you currently pay in an amount from your wages-- your employer would have to LOWER your wages by that amount under the "Fair" Tax, so the amount you have in the end would still be the same-- again, it is STILL a cost to him otherwise.
See this TABLE from American's for Fair Taxation's research which gives away what the Fair Tax really is (a plan to make the middleclasses work more to have the same standard of living as now, while the wealthy get much wealthier under it)--TABLE 5 page 26 at tinyurl 593htl. Notice which income groups labor supply increases the most ($0-$149k) and which grps real wages increase the most (more than $150k, up 48%). Notice how the $50k group works10.3% more for a wage increase of 1.5%. Ouch.
Thank you Devin. Good information and well thought out ideas. So who do we vote for? I like the idea of the people marching around Wall St. and other areas. Too bad it isn't turning out the way it was planned. Do you think what they are doing was a good plan to begin with? Do you know of any events planned in the Orlando, FL area that would help the cause?
Do you really want to raise taxes on the middle classes (those making from $15,000 to $150,000 a year) while lowering the taxes of the wealthy (those making more than $150,000 a year), bmccaffe?
You might want to look at the data-- even the SUPPORTING org's data shows that this "Fair" Tax aka National Sales Tax-Inclusive aka NASTI would raise the taxes of the middleclasses. See tinyurl 593htl, pages 30-on, particularly Table 13 years 7-8 and 15-16 to see one trick they try.
Explain how this works on elderly who don't have any new income, and are dependent on retirement or SS. They now are taxed on stuff they buy.
I much prefer Ron Paul's 0-0-0 plan and reduce the stupid spending. Remember the Income tax basically goes to pay INTEREST on the money the private Federal Reserve bank prints, then it charges the US government interest on the money it just printed.
"Not every household would benefit equally, however. (edit) Mid-income category households* would lose because the FairTax would impose a relatively higher tax rate on them." tinyurl 593htl
@minofonbil How about growing your own food? And i'm sure you can grow some plants that have medicinal value as well. Get off the grid and back to 1800s living, and you can keep 100% of your prebate. That what you are looking for?
First - your analysis of todays current taxes didn't include FICA and Medicare taxes that are not part of the income tax process, so your assessment compared to the fair tax is off . . . Second - that tax rate assesment of 0% is the worst case scenario - if that family buys used items - clothes, furniture, tv or appliances - then they don't pay tax on that and move into a negative tax rate at that point.
Wow - nobody on here seems to get it. Really, you think it eliminates Social Security and Medicare? No. Does it eliminate the payroll tax that is currently how SS and Med are funded? Yes. Do they still get funded? Yes - fair tax is designed to be revenue neutral, so overall the same amount is collected, it just increases the base of those paying into it (think drug dealers and illegal immigrants). Everyones issue with Fair Tax is almost always based on misinformation about the Fair Tax.
@dmurray1095 I don't think 23% would be enough ... the average person pays FICA and medicare taxes on everything they earn. People that make more than $106,800 don't have to pay any more FICA past that point. That's 15.3% for FICA (your part and your employer's part), Medicare is 2.9% (your part and your employer's part). Plus the current Federal income tax ...
@milofonbil The study has been done to determine a level that would provide the amount needed to be revenue neutral . . . see the documentation on fairtax.org for details on the tax base changes and how the percentage was determined.
@milofonbil How? Oh, you mean by removing the federal imbedded taxes in everything we buy and replacing it with a simple sales tax? Or is it by not imposing any tax on a used item? Or the $4500 prebate which ensures that no American pays taxes on essential goods and services?
@naggernutz - get a clue.... under the fair tax, lower income levels receive a "pre-bate" that covers the amount of fair tax that they would pay on essential goods and services. Read a little bit and stop getting your news from MSNBC. Having wrote that, I must say that I am not for the Fair Tax: I am for a Flat Tax, with no pre-bate provisions, and no tax for anybody, for food or utilities. If the government cannot run on that, keep cutting the size of government until outgo equals income. Easy
From fairtxorg:"Households in the lowest income band,with an adj. gross income (AGI) of less than $10,000 annually, would benefit because they would receive the prebate that would more than offset any higher cost of purchasing goods. Households in the top income cat.,with more than $150,000 in annual income, would also gain as they do not have to pay their highest marginal tax rates. Mid-income cat. households would lose because the FairTax would impose a relatively higher tax rate on them.
Will you collect a prebate check if you are in jail, travelling or out of the country? How will the government track you to get it to you once a year, or split-up several times a year. The obvious next step is to cut the prebate to save the government some more money. Who does it hurt? The working poor, the retired, students, etc.
"..........so, on behalf of the youth of this nation, who have NOT been HYPNOTIZED by Obama's oratorical skills, and who are ACTUALLY PAYING ATTENTION to what's happening TO this nation, and also as a GENUINELY CONCERNED CITIZEN of these United States, I beg ALL of you to stand up to the government and tell them that ENOUGH IS ENOUGH......." way to go, Devin!
In his world, unproductive hedge fund managers that make thousands if not millions an hour pretty much don't pay a tax at all because they don't consume much of anything. And productive workers like the working poor (like one or two full-time jobs while working at McDonalds or Walmart) are taxed on their consumption with is pretty much everything they make. This so-called "FAIR" tax is great for Wall Street, but horrible for Main Street. Don't get trapped by it's overwhelming simplicity.
@milofonbil The thing is, the income tax is gone, therefore, more money direct to them. So, they'll end up paying the equivilant amount of taxes, maybe less if they spend less. Plus, you're not including the prebate, which will give back a certain amount of money based on the poverty line, to ensure that essential items are tax free. If a McDonald's employee only spends what is needed, they'll pretty much not be paying taxes, due to the prebate.
@No1Complainer Yes ... the minimum wage worker may get his "prebate" check once a year (or once a quarter) and will see this as money given to him by the government to splurge. Then for the rest of the time, the working poor will be subject to even worse poverty than they do now. Currently, they pay 10% of their income in taxes, but get a rebate due to EIC. Your sales tax is 23%
On the other hand, the billionaire will receive his prebate check and spend it on more overseas investments.
Yes, more money direct to them (the very lowest level of income tax is 10%), but then prices for everything are 23% higher, including food which in many states is not currently taxed. Maybe they will spend less really means they will starve more. I personally challenge you to only spend your state's allotment in food stamps for one week. (Google food stamp challenge). Then to give you an idea of what the poor will have, cut the amount you took for the first week by 23%. Can you make week 1?
@milofonbil@No1Complainer And, no I did not forget about the "prebate" that check went out in the mail and it got spent immediately or lost on it's way for the blind, homeless, working poor, elderly ...etc. Students move every quarter or semester. The prebate is just a scam in order to track everyone in the country. You want your check? You have to give them your address so they can track you. No thanks.
@milofonbil They wouldn't collect. They're not collecting any money now, they're not paying taxes now. So this doesn't concern them. There will still be soup kitchens and homeless shelters for them, but they don't make money, they don't spend money. However, the government should put programs in place that actually help them, like giving them training so they can get a job.
@No1Complainer Homeless people do make money to buy drugs and alcohol by begging on the street corners, giving blood plasma, working day jobs that pay cash, and often by committing serious crimes like home burglary, bank and liquor store robberies, etc. Some prostitute themselves. Under the FAIR TAX system, they are taxed on their legal consumption, but not on the drugs. The government had programs in place to help train and transition the homeless, but they have been canceled in most states
@milofonbil So you want me to worry about some how getting a prebate check to those who don't have an address (homeless) so they can use it to buy drugs and alcohol? You're just giving me more reason not to give them a prebate check, on top of them not paying taxes.
@milofonbil As for the rich, the rich buy planes, yachts, mansions, etc. That's a lot of taxes. 23% on a $20 million dollar estate. That's $4 million dollars of taxes. No loop holes, not tax returns, plain and simple. Sure, they might hoard their money, be less likely to buy the yachts and mansions under this new plan, but when they do, it will help.
@No1Complainer IMHO you have a clue. Nope, they will avoid the taxes on their homes like they always have - offshore or have their corporation buy it for them as a business expense. Many CEOs get luxury homes, cars and yachts as a perk. I doubt that you could ever collect a dime on real estate transactions. Are you going to tax the purchase of rental homes, apartments and shopping centers? There won't be anymore rental available.
@milofonbil Since you seem to have so many issues with the fair tax, what is your solution to the tax problem in this country? Write up a bill, spread the word. That's how the fair tax started. If you know of something better, by all means present it. I want the best tax system that we can have.
@No1Complainer I do know most of the answers, I am probing to find out how much you already know without provoking hostility. Have you really read HR 25? Do us all a favor. Here is a link TinyURL dot com bdsjlx Please read the whole bill, then we can discuss the issues. It's not that long.
@milofonbil Finally, take into account those that don't make an income tax. Illegal immigrants, people that don't have a job. They can take money from the system, but not put it back in. With the fair tax law, EVERYONE who buys anything in the U.S. will pay tax, including immigrants and tourists. That's a huge jump in revenue. Plus, the prebate is only given to legal residents. Illegals would not get that prebate to counter-act the sales tax.
@milofonbil : wrong assessment - First, there is a rebate that compensates people for the taxes they would pay spending on necessary items up to the level of spending at the poverty level. therefore, if you spend all you make, and you make 23k a year for a family of 4, then your net taxes paid would be 0. If a hedge fund manager makes a million dollars, but only spends 23k a year, then he would also have a net taxes paid of 0. But how many people making a million a year only spend 23k?
@dmurray1095 No, right assessment. I know all about the prebate. The working poor (for example, a single mom with two kids making $7.00/hr) not only has a much lower tax rate (10%) but can get two tax credits EIC and child tax credit. She in turn gets a tax REFUND at the end of the year to the tune of thousands of dollars. Under the so-called fair tax, they get a prebate which refunds the 23% sales taxes paid, but no more. Again, the so-called "FAIR TAX" puts a huge toll on the working poor
First off no one told this mother to have 2 children. EIC and these child tax crdits are a bunch of crap. YOU SHOULD NEVER GET BACK MORE THAN YOU PAY IN, PERIOD. DID you know that through the EIC and child tax credits over 45% of americans paid no federal income tax in 2010. In fact, they got a tax bonus of thousands of dollars. I say a flat tax across the board with no loopholes for the rich would be good. Its time that the poor stop riding the back of working amreicans.
@cmax1966 Who told your mother to have a child? What an asshole you are. People have children and then their "stable" job gets shipped to China or India. Then they are unemployed with everyone else in town. The purpose of the current EIC is the same as the prebate ... so that working people don't pay the 10% income tax (the first tier) on essentials. There are many ways that the rich dodge paying taxes. The flat tax is such that the rich will be riding on the backs of working Americans.
Thats the problem with people like you, always wanting to give to people who do not deserve. You will never be able to explain to me why a person would ever get back more that they pay in is fair. You will also never be able to convince me that EIC is fair in anyway. A national flat sales tax would not benefit the rich, please explain. if the rich buy food they pay the same if they buy gas they pay the same. Whatever they buy they pay the same in tax as the poor person. moron
@cmax1966 A poor person must spend pretty much everything they get just to live. So Joe Sixpack works a minimum wage job full time 40 hrs a week, takes home $290 a week. His $500 per month rent is taxed at 23% now. All of his food is taxed, etc. Since everything is consumed, everything is taxed. But Bob Hedgefund on the other hand makes 1 million an hour. He does not consume everything. He may consume 1 million per year and pays only $230,000 in tax. The rest of his 2 billion is saved.
@milofonbil@cmax1966 (continued) So Bob Hedgefund's effective tax rate is 0.0115% or nothing for all practical purposes. And, Joe Sixpack's effective tax rate is 23%.
Of course, you will explain the prebate to me and you show me how someone under or at the poverty line does not pay any taxes. Well, EIC does not refund everything, only a part. So you must hate the prebate even more. The tiny prebate check will not change Bob Hedgefund's economics one bit.
@milofonbil Your numbers are so off its not even funny. Please explain to me why being poor gets you a tax refund my friend or a reason to pay no tax at all. My wife does the taxes of a friend who makes 29k with 3 kids, gets 11,500 a year in child support. she paid in a total of 2365 in fed and state tax. she got back over $9800, Explain to me how in the hell you think that is fair. She got that with EIC and she paid no fed tax for the year 2010. Give a believeable reason why thats fair. WAITIN
(CONT) so she got back almost 4times what she pain in, therefore she and millions of others like her pay nothing in taxes. I know there things to fact not fiction. As I said before a flat national sales tax of 5% would tax everything fairly. Why do you for some reason think that being poor endows you with the right to get payed for being lazy. if you live in this country and have no education to get a good job it your fault not the taxpayers.
@cmax1966 (CONT) I would guess by your response here defending the EIC and such that you must receive a huge refund because of it each year. I am very tired of having to support the sorry, worthless, lazyass people who ride the train all the time with thier hand out waiting for that "CHECK"
@cmax1966 So your solution with the FairTax is not only to give the mother of three CHILDREN that WORKS for a living a check of $423 a month ($5,072 a year), but to hand it to EVERYONE whether they work or not. In fact, under your plan homeless people that do nothing but ride the train (as you put) it will be getting a $208 check every month. EIC only applies to working parents of children. Your FairTax solution creates a whole society of people that are not motivated to collect their check.
@milofonbil Where do you come up with these numbers. if you read closely to what I said you would understand. What we need to have is a flat tax across the board. No loopholes national sales tax of say 5%. That way even the rich pay thier share and so deos everybody else. that means even the homeless pay if they end up buying something. I say completely cut out any EIC and child tax credits. Why should anyone get special tax breaks for having kids. No one told this mother of 3 to have them.
@cmax1966 (CONT.) I cannot see how you get I was wanting to give them a check, please learn better read comprehension my friend. I am for cutting out those EIC bonuses each year.
@cmax1966 of course there are loopholes around a flat sales tax. The super rich don't consume much in comparison to what they earn through investing and speculation. Are you going to tax me a sales tax when I buy apartment buildings, shopping centers and small islands? Of course not. The objective of this whole flat tax nonsense is to tax the crap out of poor and middle class people. A 5% sales tax won't be enough to run government (which does all the unprofitable stuff).
@holycanoliotis No, it really delivers more "punishment" on poor people and the middle class, while the rich get major tax breaks even though they benefit the most from the commons. Speculators who earn the most (such as hedge fund managers) pay nothing. And, in fact, it punishes people that are unable to work the hardest such as the physically and mentally handicapped, the elderly and the illiterate.
The beneficiaries are clearly people that can afford paying taxes the most.
(cont) Your family of 4 where both parents working full time making minimum wage or 23k currently gets a refund of Earned Income Credit of $5,036, plus $2000 for the Child Tax Credit. This is not zero as with the so-called tax, but a REFUND of $7,036, beyond what they paid in on taxes. Again, the working poor are FAR worse off with your SO-CALLED FairTax.
How many people making a million a year only spend 23K? The expenses will be shifted to the corporate income where there is no tax.
@Diskatopia You do realize you linked an article and then quote passages from pg. 30 the "unrealistic model" instead of pg. 34 the "more realistic model" which states "the results are printed on the last line of table 14 and show that %91 will be better off over their lifetime as a result of the fair tax. Even the losers would not lose by much; of the 10,000 cases, the biggest loser would see his or her utility fall by just 1.1%."
The "Fair" Tax aka national Sales Tax- Inclusive aka NASTI would on average raise the federal taxes of those making from $15k-$150k a year while lowering the fed taxes of those making over $150k a year. This is not debateable, it is from supporters' own site and "research".
How do they claim the middle classes will still be better off, then? By asserting that if one's income drops from $35k to $10k a year, one is better off. Does any sensible person think that way? tinyurl 593htl, table 13.
I wish I had this kid's passion. @ItchMyFoot your point would mean a lot more to people if it was made clearly and without personal insults and cursing. If you want people to agree with you, don't insult them, educate them. Make a speech like this kid and post it so we can hear YOUR point of view.
Here is Fairtax explained by a 60 year old, who read Fairtax footnotes and fine print, and talked to the official Fairtax spokesmen'
Fairtax is total and complete and utter bullshit. It sounds great to stupid people, and to people who have no clue what is in the fine print and footnotes.
@ItchMyFoot you wanna talk about "footnotes"? the Obamacare bill was over 1000 pages long, and even nancy pelosi was quoted saying we won't know the extent of what is in the bill until after we pass it.
@LoganCookMusic It doesnt fucking matter what Obama care is, you lunatic. This is about the 300 billion dollar HIDDEN tax that Fairtax has on PENSIONS -- got that yet, you stupid shit, PENSIONS. A 300 billion dollar tax that has to be paid IN ADVANCE -- on PENSIONS and wages.
And it's only in a FOOTNOTE you stupid shit. And that is just one of many bogus hidden crap in Fairtax.
Their own leaders know it's goofy -- got that you idiot. It's a fucking farce.
@ItchMyFoot I said absolutely nothing in my comment about my views on whether or not I thought fair tax was right or wrong. My comment was about Obamacare, so why don't you think twice next time before calling some a "lunatic", "Idiot", and a "Stupid s#$%". Good job Illustrating to everyone how confused and uneducated you are. You have made a fool of yourself.
You can't just do an estate tax, cause it would amount to 1% of what the fair tax would bring in... Plus thats just a tax on the wealthy, I'm not my self, wish I were, but I dont agree on punishing peoples accomplishments...!
Why not simply introduce a wealth tax on real estate and abolish the rest? I would need literaly 10 government officials to run it. Everyone estimates the value of their land/houses and based on that you pay ex. 3% a year tax. BUT if you estimate the value too low the government may buy it from you paying the price you indicated. People who don't own real estate would also "pay" it in a way cause obviously the rent would go up. So you have a computer system, 10 guys and a system you cant cheat!
From BHI/fairtaxorg:"Households in the lowest income band, with an (AGI) of less than $10,000 annually, would benefit because they would receive the prebate that would more than offset any higher cost of purchasing goods.Households in the top income category, with more than $150,000 in annual income, would also gain as they do not have to pay their highest marginal tax rates. Mid-income category households would lose because the Fair Tax would impose a relatively higher tax rate on them."
Income tax is the fairest way to tax to pay for society-- taxing the benefit people gain from our society (income) at the source, to pay for those benefits that make the society that benefits them so great, allowing them to earn in that society.
The "Fair" Tax aka National Sales Tax-Inclusive aka NASTI has been shown by many econ. experts, and even supporters own research (see the BHI papers at their site) to hammer the middleclasses while massively cutting the taxes of the wealthy.
@Diskatopia - Still playing class warfare, I see. No doubt you're still in the zero tax bracket too. I don't blame you, if I wasn't paying my fair share, I'd troll too.
@NAGGERNUTZ Still making class warfare I see, defending the absurd idea that millionaires, who pay a lower effective rate in federal taxes than most doctors, lawyers, dentists, and small businessmen, should pay even less and not pay their fair share of federal taxes I see. Still defending a tax that is a backdoor way of killing Social Security I see.
Still rebutting not one single fact I post, as usual, and just spouting strawman and ad hominem attacks, as is usual for those with no facts.
@Diskatopia - Oh here we go again. Still a liberal, still in that zero tax bracket and still lying. The rich already pay a higher tax rate per household income level than the middle class or the poor. Here's the CBO figures: tinyurl*com/qa8d9a ... But I'm sure you'll even deny the governments own numbers. I'll not even get into the IRS figures that prove at least 45% of Americans pay little or NO taxes. I do have facts, you just deny facts and make up your own.
@NAGGERNUTZ ""45% of Americans pay little or NO taxes"... false. Those who pay little or no FEDERAL INCOME taxes are hit by SS,state, city,and county sales taxes, excise taxes, state income taxes, license fees, federal and state utility taxes, federal and state gasoline taxes, property taxes, et cetera ad nauseum. When all are added in, the middleclasses pay plenty of taxes, and it clearly causes them more "pain" to their standard-of-living than the effective rates on millionaires do them.
@Diskatopia - I knew you'd even dispute the IRS's own numbers. Actually, it's 47% of Americans that pay little or no taxes... IRS.
"About 47 percent will pay no federal income taxes at all. Either their incomes were too low, or they qualified for enough credits, deductions and exemptions to eliminate their liability. That's according to projections by the Tax Policy Center, a Washington research organization." - AP Washington
The tax code is packed with deductions. You know that.
@NAGGERNUTZ Try again, read carefully-- "it's 47% of Americans that pay little or no taxes"again, false, unless you insert the word "FEDERAL INCOME" between "no" and "taxes. You seem to want to ignore that important qualifier (hint, it is in your AP quote).
Nigh everyone pays taxes, those I listed are just some of many.
@NAGGERNUTZ I see you didn't try to dispute that what I stated was correct-- that those making million$ on average pay a lower effective federal rate (21% and down to16.5% for the top 400) than many dentists, doctors, and small businessmen.
@NAGGERNUTZ re the data: of course top QUINTILE pays more than 2nd, it INCLUDES those folks making 100k-200k-- dentists, doctors, small businesspeople-- who ARE, as I stated, paying HIGHER rates than the top 1/10th of 1%, who are skating with an eff.rate of around 21%, the top 1/100th of 1% having an avg. effective rate of roughly 18%, and the 1/10000th of 1% having about 16.5% (tinyurl forbes400inc,tinyurl top400income). ALL of those rates=lower than nigh ever, the result=massive job losses.
@NAGGERNUTZ And you want RAISE the taxes of those making from $15k to $150k so you can LOWER the taxes of those making more, and and you want to do away with Social Security (the foolish "Fair" Tax aka National Sales Tax -Inclusive aka NASTI does those things and much worse)...talk about class warfare, you want to turn this nation into a feudal plutocracy... and you accuse others of class warfare-- talk about psychological projection, lol.
@Diskatopia - Please don't be stupid Paul. You know the FairTax prebate untaxes the poor. Nobody said anything about "doing away with Soc Sec, you did. If all you have to look forward to at retirement is Soc Sec, then you have bigger problems than the tax code. Social security was NEVER intended to be an individual's sole source of retirement income. It was only intended as a supplement to a prudent person's retirement plan. Sorry you didn't prepare.
@NAGGERNUTZ Please don't be slow, NUTZ, you JUST STATED the poor ( the bottom of that 47%)pay "no taxes" NOW , and you know the "Fair Tax" aka NASTI raises the effective federal taxes of those who make from $15k to $150k while lowering the taxes of those who make more than $150k. Why are you declaring class warfare on the middle classes? PS-- if you don't think it does away with Social Security answer this-- how will the amounts each retiree gets be decided? Hint-- they can't, no "paid in" data.
Paul please. Stop trying to spin what I said. The IRS says 47% of Americans pay little or no income taxes. YOU assumed I said the poor. I didn't, I simply said, 47% of Americans pay little or no income taxes. That's not fair Period.
Social Security will still receive wage and salary information Paul. Please, use your head.
@NAGGERNUTZ Surely you can't be ThAt slow? I'll just attribute it to you dodging the facts so you can keep your fantasy alive... that 47 %(which can be basically found in yourown link if you understand it) , yes from your own link, INCLUDES THE POOR , lol. Hint:bottom quintile.
@Diskatopia - Yes Paul, try to keep up. Man up and get off your ass. Put away your childhood fantasies and provide for your family. Stop whining about your entitlements. The truth to tell, you're not concerned so much about the tax code as you are losing your free ride on the public dole. This is the greatest country in the world. We have more education and job training opportunities than any other country. The poor in this country are poor by choice. And that's a fact.
@NAGGERNUTZ Sigghhhh, that's it, blather on into false ad hominem, imagining that everyone who supports a decent taxation system that doesn't hammer those making from $15k to $150k is just out for themselves (more psycholofgical projection on your part).. imagine that Buffett has some nefarious reason for wanting his taxes raised... and keep dodging those facts that might tear down your fantasy of getting the "Fair" Tax aka NASTI enshrined, even if it would harm the nation.
@Diskatopia - Paul. Didn't I say Man up? How about trying it instead of making wild assumptions about me? YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW THE FAIRTAX WILL AFFECT ANYONE SINCE IT'S BASED PURELY ON CONSUMPTION. Paul, every household spends differently. How many poor people go out spending on new items each month? Go get that figure... if it exists. Now I'm un-American because I want a booming economy? Because I want our economy on an even playing field with the rest of the world? Please Paul.
From BHI/fairtxorg:"Households in the lowest income band,with an adj. gross income (AGI) of less than $10,000 annually, would benefit because they would receive the prebate that would more than offset any higher cost of purchasing goods. Households in the top income cat.,with more than $150,000 in annual income, would also gain as they do not have to pay their highest marginal tax rates. Mid-income cat. households would lose because the FairTax would impose a relatively higher tax rate on them.
@NAGGERNUTZ That's it, keep projecting and spouting ad hominem and strawman, NUTZ, anything to keep from admitting that you've been shown wrong repeatedly. Keep dodging, you can keep your fantasy alive!
You might want to go read the "research" at fairtaxorg (the folks pushing this crock tax), since they claim to know that info, and they state that on average it would raise the effective tax rates of those making from roughly $15k to 150k a year while lowering the rates of those who make more. Your oft-repeated by FT/NASTI fans claim that it would create a "booming econ." is also in there (hint: it would be"booming".. on average for all who make $150k or more..for those who make less- crashing).
@Diskatopia - Paul, please. I've practically begged you to stop the bullshit spin. If the economy is booming, wouldn't it be much easier for the poor people, that you claim to champion, to find better jobs? Better chances for education and-or career training? You're so sorry for yourself, you make me sick. Unemployment is at 9.2%.
@NAGGERNUTZ Keep dodging, keep up the strawmen, keep avoiding the research from supporters' OWN site, lol, maybe one day you will go read it, and you will see the tricks they pull for the "booming" econ. (hint: if someone's income drops from $50k to 10k is he better off, is that "booming"? According to their research, it is)... and then "man up" and come back and admit how wrong you are. PS-- remember, no full names or addys or your account will go byebye like last time. That gets you so angry.
@Diskatopia - Paul, don't fucking threaten me! Little man, I live real close to Chattanooga. YOU put your personal information on the fucking internet for the world to see, I didn't. Fuck with my account punk and this time you won't be sitting at home laughing. I guarantee it. I haven't said anything about you that you don't have on your own fucking channel page.
@NAGGERNUTZ Careful, you are close to crossing that line again. I repeat, remember what happened last time. When you break the rules, you bring it on yourself. Your veiled threat is likely enough for me to report at this time, but I won't unless you keep it up, NUTZ. If you feel the desperate need to post private info, post your own all you want, no one cares.
@NAGGERNUTZ Before you "sure YouTube sees the dialog here", you might want to reread and see that you threatened me, all I said was I would report any violations by you here, so if you send this to them, you will end up getting your own account deleted when they read the threat.
@Diskatopia - "PS-- remember, no full names or addys or your account will go byebye like last time. That gets you so angry." If that isn't threatening and or harassing, you have nothing to worry about. Again, I've said all I need to. I can't control what you do. I can defend myself.
@NAGGERNUTZ I know I have nothing to worry about, as it is neither threatening nor harassing, it is the same as last time-- if you break the TOS with your threats and such, they will kick you out again, just like they did last time. Your "I know where you live" threat at me is visible to all, so if you want to send it in to YT and incriminate yourself, that is your problem.
@Diskatopia - "Provoke": "Stimulate or incite (someone) to do or feel something, esp. by arousing anger in them". If anything, YouTube will also see that you provoked my response. It could also mean that both accounts could be deleted, it's your call.
@Diskatopia - Tell me this Mr American hero... how many deductions do you claim when you file your tax return? Be honest for once. You know as well as I do that you claim as many as you can get your paws on. You also know that you're in the zero tax bracket. And you're still whining? Just a little hypocritical Paul.
@Diskatopia HINT: The poor are NOT defined by the bottom quintile. If this were true, then 20% of the people would always be poor. The poor are defined by the poverty line. People that don't earn above the poverty line are considered poor. The nation's poverty rate rose to 15.1% in 2010, up from 14.3% (approximately 43.6 million) in 2009 and to its highest level since 1993. But the number of people that are barely above the poverty line has also grown, due to no increase in minimum wage.
@NAGGERNUTZ With your "FAIR TAX", how many people will collect the "prebate" checks? All of them. How many people will be paying a tax? All of them. But answer this question: How many will pay more tax than the prebate?
@Diskatopia - "you know the "Fair Tax" aka NASTI raises the effective federal taxes of those who make from $15k to $150k while lowering the taxes of those who make more than $150k"... stop spinning Paul. You have NO WAY of knowing how the FairTax will raise or lower anyone's tax liability since it's a consumption tax based upon spending on new items.
@NAGGERNUTZ Of course this can be predicted. Marketing organizations know very well who spends on what. Why don't you read the book "The Millionaire Next Door". It was written by marketeers studying the spending habits of the very rich. It will help you understand that many people become millionaires by following the following rule: It's not what you earn, but what you keep. The upper quintile does not have to spend everything they earn to survive.
@Diskatopia - Paul, I'm not going to argue with you. Look around. Do you see more than a handful of people who are against the FairTax? For once in your life tell the truth. I'm sorry you wasted your life Paul. Now you want taxpayers to bail you out. Yes Paul, I know where you live, remember? The low rent district. Accept responsibility for your failures. Don't make your family pay for it. I'm not trying to insult you. I'm simply calling a spade a spade.
@NAGGERNUTZ I am not arguing with you, just putting the facts up so others can see, those like you will never look at the facts and will keep ignoring them. All I see are a handful of people in favor of FT/NASTI mainly because they have not seen the facts, and a smaller handlful of , let's be honest, foolish ones who will never face the the facts because doing so tears down their "Fair" Tax fantasy.
PS-No, you are simply the sad goob who just can't understand that that is our rental house, lol.
@Diskatopia - OK Paul, sad goob or not, I'm not whining about not having a retirement, dependent upon others for my retirement... that would be you. If you had anything Paul, you wouldn't be whining about Social Security and your precious entitlements. You're more transparent than glass.
@NAGGERNUTZ Typical of the selfish, NUTZ, you cannot imagine that anyone would want what is best for the nation, it is all about "yourself" to you, how a tax hits you and you alone. Such greed above nation is.. just sad, and unpatriotic. Go read something by, say, Warren Buffett, you might learn that national interests are more important than self-interests to real Americans.
PS-- Social Security is not an "entitlement" any more than someone's 401k is an entitlement.
@Diskatopia - Paul, again you assume. This year alone, I donated more to local charities than you, I guarantee. So now I'm selfish? My wife and I paid $5,000 to our counties new no-kill animal shelter. We donate to our local soup kitchen. We donate to our church who uses the money to pay for major surgery for those who need it. How much did you donate Paul?
@NAGGERNUTZ Once people understand the real truth behind the "FAIR TAX", they are against it. The so-called FAIR TAX raises the tax obligations on the lower four quintiles and drops the tax obligations on the upper quintile.
@milofonbil - I think you're wrong. My wife is a CPA and a corporate officer for a Fortune 500 company. Her brother is a Deputy AG for a state that I won't mention here for obvious reasons. They've both studied the FairTax and both support it. I won't get into particulars here, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
@NAGGERNUTZ Well, think what you want. Naturally any CFO of a Fortune 500 company would be all over the so-called Fair?Tax Her brother, the Deputy AG may not have read the fine print yet. But where we can agree is that only consumption is taxed making this a very regressive tax. Regressive taxes shift the tax burden from those that can afford to pay taxes to those that can afford them the least. The end effect will be a massive increase in poverty. I've studied the Fair?Tax and oppose it
@milofonbil - I'm sorry, I failed to mention that my wife's brother is a Deputy AG who handles all tax cases for his state. Neither my wife or her brother rose to their positions by being stupid or by making an endorsement before first looking at all the evidence. If I were having tax problems, there are no other people I'd trust more than them, and not just because we're related. If CFO's were "all over it", then that's a good thing for business. What's good for business is good for America.
@NAGGERNUTZ (YouTube was rejecting my posts to me, but posting anyway) Did you ever think that they may be all over it for their own gains and not that of their business? What is good for Wall Street is not necessarily good for Main Street.
@milofonbil - I would suggest that you read Milton Friedman "Free To Choose, A Personal Statement". You sound cynical. Business drives our economy. Not every business owner is a criminal.
@NAGGERNUTZ I never said that very business owner is a criminal. Yes, businesses can drive the economy. However, businesses are in business to benefit themselves, not the whole society. They accumulate wealth for themselves. But if corporations benefit, it does not mean that small businesses or employees benefit. The upper 1% has massively grown over the last 20 years, but the number of the poor has increased, not decreased. Trickle-down economics is a farse.
@milofonbil - It seems that everybody who posts comments on FairTax videos 1.- haven't really read about it, or 2.- Argue based on ideological grounds. You seem to have an ideological aversion to anyone who makes more money than you. My wife and I grew up dirt poor, but we took advantage of what was available to us. Now we live a very comfortable life. I suggest that you stop vilifying those who've achieved success and go out and get your slice of the pie.
@milofonbil Well, think what you want. Naturally any CFO of a Fortune 500 company would be all over the so-called "FairTax" Her brother, the Deputy AG may not have read the fine print yet. But where we can agree is that only consumption is taxed making this a very regressive tax.
@milofonbil Regressive taxes shift the tax burden from those that can afford to pay taxes to those that can afford them the least. The end effect will be a massive increase in poverty. I've studied the "FairTax" and oppose it
@milofonbil - "Regressive taxes shift the tax burden from those that can afford to pay taxes to those that can afford them the least. The end effect will be a massive increase in poverty". That's where the FairTax rises above ordinary consumption based taxes. The pre-bate totally un-taxes the poor on all essential items up to the poverty line. The FairTax is designed to encourage saving and investing and is revenue neutral.
@NAGGERNUTZ OK ... so the poverty line is now up to $15,000. So the prebate is $15,000, Anyone making up to $15,000 gets a $3000 check and then spends everything, taxed at 20% ..so they pay $3,600 in tax. I'm assuming rent, utilities, food, etc will be taxed
On a side note, does this mean everyone gets a check for (FairTax rate * $15,000) or something like $3000? How often would the govt be mailing out the checks? Do they come out all at the same time?
@milofonbil - No. The FairTax pre-bate check is monthly. The pre-bate is based on family size, married or single. Every US citizen receives the pre-bate. You said you've studied the FairTax, but these are basic components of the FairTax. Have you studied it or not? You're asking me basic questions that you should already know.
@NAGGERNUTZ I am checking out what you know. E.g. Another one of you FairTaxers in this same thread told me that homeless people won't get a prebate check. If he does not know the basics, then how can he know any of the fine print details? The reason I'm asking is because I have read both the Senate and Congress version of the bill. Some of it is very eyeopening. Does FairTax eliminate Social Security and Medicare? YES. How will you survive or pay medical expenses?
@milofonbil - From what I've read in other posts, he's right. Homeless people are what they are. Yes, they do beg for money, eat in soup kitchens and live on the streets or in homeless shelters... but since FairTax is a consumption tax, they'd still be paying taxes when they spend the money that they beg for. I would imagine, if they want the pre-bate check, they'll have to open a bank account and/or get a mailing address. It would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 to 400 bucks a month.
@NAGGERNUTZ Fair enough. That was the answer I was looking for. Now since FairTax takes away Social Security and Medicare, how will retirees live? (most have not saved enough for their retirement because they never made enough money or were not prudent) How will they get healthcare? Healthcare prices are completely out of control.
@milofonbil - I'm unaware of any section of the FairTax that says Social Security and Medicare would be eliminated. I'll take your word, but I'd like read it for myself. Please give me the link so I can check it out. FairTax and our current tax code have nothing to do with Social Security and Medicare other than funding them. FairTax is revenue neutral and designed to fund both. "How will you survive or pay medical expenses"... I don't understand the question. What do you mean?
@NAGGERNUTZ "This nonpartisan legislation (HR 25) abolishes all federal personal
and corporate income taxes, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, and selfemployment taxes and replaces them with one simple, visible, federal retail sales tax – administered primarily by existing state sales tax authorities" Source: Fair Tax Prebate Explained Fairtax dot org TinyURL 3vvw8ty HR25 Sections 101-103 TinyURL bdsjlx If you had ACTUALLY had read the bill...
@milofonbil - Ha ha ha! Dude, read what you wrote again please. "abolishes all federal personal and corporate income taxes, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, and self employment taxes AND REPLACES THEM WITH ONE SIMPLE, VISIBLE, FEDERAL RETAIL SALES TAX". It says nothing about abolishing Social Security and Medicare. All it says is that it combines everything into one tax! LOL!
@NAGGERNUTZ First of all thanks for being civil rather than calling me names. My questions are elementary sounding because I can't show you the details without pointing out that you really don't know as much as you might think. I do this by slowly calling your attention to the holes between the propaganda and the truth. Actually, most pro-FairTaxers know very little about HR25. Since I've given you a link TinyURL bdsjlx will you please read the bill?
@milofonbil - No problem. No sense in name calling. I have read the bill. And my wife and her brother have also read the bill. There is also a plain language version. As I said before, I know of no other person that's as knowledgeable about federal taxes as my wife and her brother. It runs in the family. My wife graduated Summa from UNC and Magna at Duke University (MBA). Her brother was summa from the University of Maryland and graduated in the top 5 of his law school at UVA.
@milofonbil - "Regressive taxes shift the tax burden from those that can afford to pay taxes to those that can afford them the least. The end effect will be a massive increase in poverty". That's where the FairTax rises above ordinary consumption based taxes. The pre-bate totally un-taxes the poor on all essential items up to the poverty line. The FairTax is designed to encourage saving and investing and is revenue neutral.
@Diskatopia He's denying the facts. According to HR 25 (2011) there IS language to kill Social Security, Medicare, Earned Income Credit, Inheritance Taxes, etc. The Social Security Admi
Good speaker and good idea but not properly implemented in HR25 and S13 of 2011 unfortunately both of those are just a 7 year money grab by the rich that would result in a poorer country, middle class, and working poor class. Those bills need to be read in entirety and then any but the super rich who are also without ethics would be against them.
TheKcguy6935 2 weeks ago 2
awesome, but einstein was a fraud who took ideas from white guy who came to his patent office, henry ford was far smarter as was edison
bootiack 2 weeks ago
Way too loud intro. Learn to post @bmccaffe.
jesuped 3 weeks ago
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Is the FT/NASTI progressive or regressive?Here is the quote from one of the Beacon Hill treatises on the AFT site:
"The key result of the foregoing discussion is that it matters fundamentally how one frames the discussion of the distributional effects of the FairTax. When people are sorted by expenditure per capita, the FairTax is progressive; when they are sorted by income per capita, it is regressive."
Those who undertand what this means now understand what a bad idea the "Fair" Tax is.
Diskatopia 3 weeks ago
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Is the FT/NASTI progressive or regressive?Here is the quote from one of the Beacon Hill treatises on the AFT site:
"The key result of the foregoing discussion is that it matters fundamentally how one frames the discussion of the distributional effects of the FairTax. When people are sorted by expenditure per capita, the FairTax is progressive; when they are sorted by income per capita, it is regressive."
Those who undertand what this means now understand what a bad idea the "Fair" Tax is.
Diskatop 3 weeks ago
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The "Fair" Tax is a horrible idea and would hammer the middleclasses. This is from fairtaxorg's OWN research: "Not every household would benefit equally, however. (edit) Mid-income category households* would lose because the FairTax would impose a relatively higher tax rate on them." *tinyurl 593htl page 30 on, paying attention to Table 13 yrs 7-8
FairTaxisaLie 1 month ago
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The "Fair" Tax is basically class warfare,the wealthy declaring war on the middleclasses by raising their effective tax rates.It would, by Americans for Fair Taxation's own admission, raise the effective tax rate of those making from $15,000 to $150,000 a year while lowering the effective rate of those making $150,000 and up a year. Source:tinyurl 593htl, page 30 on -pay particular attention to table 13, years 7-8 --would you be "better off" if your income dropped from $25k to less than $10k?
FairTaxisaLie 1 month ago
Devin Scanlon There is a BETTER way and it's not a national sales tax.. I think you will agree. please visit NIFTYTAX dot com
Niftytax 1 month ago
Fair Tax explained by a 72 year old...... It's fine if you want to shop in pawn shops and secondhand stores
Niftytax 1 month ago 4
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Think this through to see why the "embedded taxes" argument is false-- if one considers TAXES as embedded in the price item (rather than seeing them as something paid at DIFFERENT RATES by workers from emb. WAGES), If you state prices with tax will basically not rise because of "emb. taxes" removal-- thus your takehome pay stays the SAME as now--how are "illegals" paying taxes? Your check is the same, items cost same.
Answer: YOU are still paying, and MORE, by your paycheck staying the same.
1969was1969 2 months ago
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@1969was1969 cont) Think -- if you currently get a refund of some of the money deducted
from your check, you will not get that money under the FT, your employer has to keep it in the "prices remain the same" scenario, it is still a cost to him otherwise. If you currently pay in an amount from your wages-- your employer would have to LOWER your wages by that amount under the "Fair" Tax, so the amount you have in the end would still be the same-- again, it is STILL a cost to him otherwise.
1969was1969 2 months ago
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@1969was1969 cont) Think -- if you currently get a refund of some of the money deducted from your check, you will not get that money under the FT, your employer has to keep it in the "prices remain the same" scenario, it is still a cost to him otherwise. If you currently pay in an amount from your wages-- your employer would have to LOWER your wages by that amount under the "Fair" Tax, so the amount you have in the end would still be the same-- again, it is STILL a cost to him otherwise.
1969was1969 2 months ago
People under the poverty line should not pay taxes. And the money from the prebate will not really be completely enough they will still need to work
johnesdman 3 months ago
@johnesdman Then they have the choice to consume less.
lintywaver1 3 weeks ago
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See this TABLE from American's for Fair Taxation's research which gives away what the Fair Tax really is (a plan to make the middleclasses work more to have the same standard of living as now, while the wealthy get much wealthier under it)--TABLE 5 page 26 at tinyurl 593htl. Notice which income groups labor supply increases the most ($0-$149k) and which grps real wages increase the most (more than $150k, up 48%). Notice how the $50k group works10.3% more for a wage increase of 1.5%. Ouch.
1969was1969 3 months ago 2
Thank you Devin. Good information and well thought out ideas. So who do we vote for? I like the idea of the people marching around Wall St. and other areas. Too bad it isn't turning out the way it was planned. Do you think what they are doing was a good plan to begin with? Do you know of any events planned in the Orlando, FL area that would help the cause?
pgkemper2011 3 months ago
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Do you really want to raise taxes on the middle classes (those making from $15,000 to $150,000 a year) while lowering the taxes of the wealthy (those making more than $150,000 a year), bmccaffe?
You might want to look at the data-- even the SUPPORTING org's data shows that this "Fair" Tax aka National Sales Tax-Inclusive aka NASTI would raise the taxes of the middleclasses. See tinyurl 593htl, pages 30-on, particularly Table 13 years 7-8 and 15-16 to see one trick they try.
Diskatopia 3 months ago 2
Awesome!
mike000000000000able 4 months ago
Explain how this works on elderly who don't have any new income, and are dependent on retirement or SS. They now are taxed on stuff they buy.
I much prefer Ron Paul's 0-0-0 plan and reduce the stupid spending. Remember the Income tax basically goes to pay INTEREST on the money the private Federal Reserve bank prints, then it charges the US government interest on the money it just printed.
End the Federal reserve. #ronpaul2012 #libertyFTW
ACMEphotography 4 months ago
"Not every household would benefit equally, however. (edit) Mid-income category households* would lose because the FairTax would impose a relatively higher tax rate on them." tinyurl 593htl
1969was1969 4 months ago
@minofonbil How about growing your own food? And i'm sure you can grow some plants that have medicinal value as well. Get off the grid and back to 1800s living, and you can keep 100% of your prebate. That what you are looking for?
dmurray2012 4 months ago
First - your analysis of todays current taxes didn't include FICA and Medicare taxes that are not part of the income tax process, so your assessment compared to the fair tax is off . . . Second - that tax rate assesment of 0% is the worst case scenario - if that family buys used items - clothes, furniture, tv or appliances - then they don't pay tax on that and move into a negative tax rate at that point.
dmurray1095 4 months ago
@dmurray1095 How do you buy used food or used medicine?
milofonbil 4 months ago
Wow - nobody on here seems to get it. Really, you think it eliminates Social Security and Medicare? No. Does it eliminate the payroll tax that is currently how SS and Med are funded? Yes. Do they still get funded? Yes - fair tax is designed to be revenue neutral, so overall the same amount is collected, it just increases the base of those paying into it (think drug dealers and illegal immigrants). Everyones issue with Fair Tax is almost always based on misinformation about the Fair Tax.
dmurray1095 4 months ago
@dmurray1095 I don't think 23% would be enough ... the average person pays FICA and medicare taxes on everything they earn. People that make more than $106,800 don't have to pay any more FICA past that point. That's 15.3% for FICA (your part and your employer's part), Medicare is 2.9% (your part and your employer's part). Plus the current Federal income tax ...
milofonbil 4 months ago
@milofonbil The study has been done to determine a level that would provide the amount needed to be revenue neutral . . . see the documentation on fairtax.org for details on the tax base changes and how the percentage was determined.
dmurray1095 4 months ago
@dmurray1095 Well, it may be revenue neutral, but it still taxes poor people heavier and lets the rich people off.
milofonbil 4 months ago
@milofonbil How? Oh, you mean by removing the federal imbedded taxes in everything we buy and replacing it with a simple sales tax? Or is it by not imposing any tax on a used item? Or the $4500 prebate which ensures that no American pays taxes on essential goods and services?
flightstudios 4 months ago
@naggernutz - get a clue.... under the fair tax, lower income levels receive a "pre-bate" that covers the amount of fair tax that they would pay on essential goods and services. Read a little bit and stop getting your news from MSNBC. Having wrote that, I must say that I am not for the Fair Tax: I am for a Flat Tax, with no pre-bate provisions, and no tax for anybody, for food or utilities. If the government cannot run on that, keep cutting the size of government until outgo equals income. Easy
GoKats76 5 months ago
From fairtxorg:"Households in the lowest income band,with an adj. gross income (AGI) of less than $10,000 annually, would benefit because they would receive the prebate that would more than offset any higher cost of purchasing goods. Households in the top income cat.,with more than $150,000 in annual income, would also gain as they do not have to pay their highest marginal tax rates. Mid-income cat. households would lose because the FairTax would impose a relatively higher tax rate on them.
FairTaxisaLie 5 months ago
Will you collect a prebate check if you are in jail, travelling or out of the country? How will the government track you to get it to you once a year, or split-up several times a year. The obvious next step is to cut the prebate to save the government some more money. Who does it hurt? The working poor, the retired, students, etc.
milofonbil 5 months ago
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milofonbil 4 months ago
"..........so, on behalf of the youth of this nation, who have NOT been HYPNOTIZED by Obama's oratorical skills, and who are ACTUALLY PAYING ATTENTION to what's happening TO this nation, and also as a GENUINELY CONCERNED CITIZEN of these United States, I beg ALL of you to stand up to the government and tell them that ENOUGH IS ENOUGH......." way to go, Devin!
waiting4guffman 5 months ago
a liberal built that podium
unitaper 5 months ago
In his world, unproductive hedge fund managers that make thousands if not millions an hour pretty much don't pay a tax at all because they don't consume much of anything. And productive workers like the working poor (like one or two full-time jobs while working at McDonalds or Walmart) are taxed on their consumption with is pretty much everything they make. This so-called "FAIR" tax is great for Wall Street, but horrible for Main Street. Don't get trapped by it's overwhelming simplicity.
milofonbil 5 months ago 2
@milofonbil The thing is, the income tax is gone, therefore, more money direct to them. So, they'll end up paying the equivilant amount of taxes, maybe less if they spend less. Plus, you're not including the prebate, which will give back a certain amount of money based on the poverty line, to ensure that essential items are tax free. If a McDonald's employee only spends what is needed, they'll pretty much not be paying taxes, due to the prebate.
No1Complainer 5 months ago
@No1Complainer Yes ... the minimum wage worker may get his "prebate" check once a year (or once a quarter) and will see this as money given to him by the government to splurge. Then for the rest of the time, the working poor will be subject to even worse poverty than they do now. Currently, they pay 10% of their income in taxes, but get a rebate due to EIC. Your sales tax is 23%
On the other hand, the billionaire will receive his prebate check and spend it on more overseas investments.
milofonbil 5 months ago
Yes, more money direct to them (the very lowest level of income tax is 10%), but then prices for everything are 23% higher, including food which in many states is not currently taxed. Maybe they will spend less really means they will starve more. I personally challenge you to only spend your state's allotment in food stamps for one week. (Google food stamp challenge). Then to give you an idea of what the poor will have, cut the amount you took for the first week by 23%. Can you make week 1?
milofonbil 5 months ago
@milofonbil @No1Complainer And, no I did not forget about the "prebate" that check went out in the mail and it got spent immediately or lost on it's way for the blind, homeless, working poor, elderly ...etc. Students move every quarter or semester. The prebate is just a scam in order to track everyone in the country. You want your check? You have to give them your address so they can track you. No thanks.
milofonbil 5 months ago
@milofonbil So, you don't want to give your address to the government? So, that's like evading jury duty. Slightly illegal there.
No1Complainer 5 months ago
@No1Complainer Rubbish. Homeless people don't have addresses. How will they collect?
milofonbil 5 months ago
@milofonbil They wouldn't collect. They're not collecting any money now, they're not paying taxes now. So this doesn't concern them. There will still be soup kitchens and homeless shelters for them, but they don't make money, they don't spend money. However, the government should put programs in place that actually help them, like giving them training so they can get a job.
No1Complainer 5 months ago
@No1Complainer Homeless people do make money to buy drugs and alcohol by begging on the street corners, giving blood plasma, working day jobs that pay cash, and often by committing serious crimes like home burglary, bank and liquor store robberies, etc. Some prostitute themselves. Under the FAIR TAX system, they are taxed on their legal consumption, but not on the drugs. The government had programs in place to help train and transition the homeless, but they have been canceled in most states
milofonbil 5 months ago
@milofonbil So you want me to worry about some how getting a prebate check to those who don't have an address (homeless) so they can use it to buy drugs and alcohol? You're just giving me more reason not to give them a prebate check, on top of them not paying taxes.
No1Complainer 5 months ago
Comment removed
No1Complainer 5 months ago
@milofonbil As for the rich, the rich buy planes, yachts, mansions, etc. That's a lot of taxes. 23% on a $20 million dollar estate. That's $4 million dollars of taxes. No loop holes, not tax returns, plain and simple. Sure, they might hoard their money, be less likely to buy the yachts and mansions under this new plan, but when they do, it will help.
No1Complainer 5 months ago
@No1Complainer IMHO you have a clue. Nope, they will avoid the taxes on their homes like they always have - offshore or have their corporation buy it for them as a business expense. Many CEOs get luxury homes, cars and yachts as a perk. I doubt that you could ever collect a dime on real estate transactions. Are you going to tax the purchase of rental homes, apartments and shopping centers? There won't be anymore rental available.
milofonbil 5 months ago
@milofonbil Since you seem to have so many issues with the fair tax, what is your solution to the tax problem in this country? Write up a bill, spread the word. That's how the fair tax started. If you know of something better, by all means present it. I want the best tax system that we can have.
No1Complainer 5 months ago
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@No1Complainer I do know most of the answers, I am probing to find out how much you already know without provoking hostility. Have you really read HR 25? Do us all a favor. Here is a link TinyURL dot com bdsjlx Please read the whole bill, then we can discuss the issues. It's not that long.
milofonbil 5 months ago
@milofonbil Finally, take into account those that don't make an income tax. Illegal immigrants, people that don't have a job. They can take money from the system, but not put it back in. With the fair tax law, EVERYONE who buys anything in the U.S. will pay tax, including immigrants and tourists. That's a huge jump in revenue. Plus, the prebate is only given to legal residents. Illegals would not get that prebate to counter-act the sales tax.
No1Complainer 5 months ago
@milofonbil : wrong assessment - First, there is a rebate that compensates people for the taxes they would pay spending on necessary items up to the level of spending at the poverty level. therefore, if you spend all you make, and you make 23k a year for a family of 4, then your net taxes paid would be 0. If a hedge fund manager makes a million dollars, but only spends 23k a year, then he would also have a net taxes paid of 0. But how many people making a million a year only spend 23k?
dmurray1095 4 months ago 2
@dmurray1095 No, right assessment. I know all about the prebate. The working poor (for example, a single mom with two kids making $7.00/hr) not only has a much lower tax rate (10%) but can get two tax credits EIC and child tax credit. She in turn gets a tax REFUND at the end of the year to the tune of thousands of dollars. Under the so-called fair tax, they get a prebate which refunds the 23% sales taxes paid, but no more. Again, the so-called "FAIR TAX" puts a huge toll on the working poor
milofonbil 4 months ago
@milofonbil
First off no one told this mother to have 2 children. EIC and these child tax crdits are a bunch of crap. YOU SHOULD NEVER GET BACK MORE THAN YOU PAY IN, PERIOD. DID you know that through the EIC and child tax credits over 45% of americans paid no federal income tax in 2010. In fact, they got a tax bonus of thousands of dollars. I say a flat tax across the board with no loopholes for the rich would be good. Its time that the poor stop riding the back of working amreicans.
cmax1966 4 months ago
@cmax1966 Who told your mother to have a child? What an asshole you are. People have children and then their "stable" job gets shipped to China or India. Then they are unemployed with everyone else in town. The purpose of the current EIC is the same as the prebate ... so that working people don't pay the 10% income tax (the first tier) on essentials. There are many ways that the rich dodge paying taxes. The flat tax is such that the rich will be riding on the backs of working Americans.
milofonbil 4 months ago
@milofonbil
Thats the problem with people like you, always wanting to give to people who do not deserve. You will never be able to explain to me why a person would ever get back more that they pay in is fair. You will also never be able to convince me that EIC is fair in anyway. A national flat sales tax would not benefit the rich, please explain. if the rich buy food they pay the same if they buy gas they pay the same. Whatever they buy they pay the same in tax as the poor person. moron
cmax1966 4 months ago
@cmax1966 A poor person must spend pretty much everything they get just to live. So Joe Sixpack works a minimum wage job full time 40 hrs a week, takes home $290 a week. His $500 per month rent is taxed at 23% now. All of his food is taxed, etc. Since everything is consumed, everything is taxed. But Bob Hedgefund on the other hand makes 1 million an hour. He does not consume everything. He may consume 1 million per year and pays only $230,000 in tax. The rest of his 2 billion is saved.
milofonbil 4 months ago
@milofonbil @cmax1966 (continued) So Bob Hedgefund's effective tax rate is 0.0115% or nothing for all practical purposes. And, Joe Sixpack's effective tax rate is 23%.
Of course, you will explain the prebate to me and you show me how someone under or at the poverty line does not pay any taxes. Well, EIC does not refund everything, only a part. So you must hate the prebate even more. The tiny prebate check will not change Bob Hedgefund's economics one bit.
The working poor get hit hard.
milofonbil 4 months ago
@milofonbil Your numbers are so off its not even funny. Please explain to me why being poor gets you a tax refund my friend or a reason to pay no tax at all. My wife does the taxes of a friend who makes 29k with 3 kids, gets 11,500 a year in child support. she paid in a total of 2365 in fed and state tax. she got back over $9800, Explain to me how in the hell you think that is fair. She got that with EIC and she paid no fed tax for the year 2010. Give a believeable reason why thats fair. WAITIN
cmax1966 4 months ago
@cmax1966
(CONT) so she got back almost 4times what she pain in, therefore she and millions of others like her pay nothing in taxes. I know there things to fact not fiction. As I said before a flat national sales tax of 5% would tax everything fairly. Why do you for some reason think that being poor endows you with the right to get payed for being lazy. if you live in this country and have no education to get a good job it your fault not the taxpayers.
cmax1966 4 months ago
@cmax1966 (CONT) I would guess by your response here defending the EIC and such that you must receive a huge refund because of it each year. I am very tired of having to support the sorry, worthless, lazyass people who ride the train all the time with thier hand out waiting for that "CHECK"
cmax1966 4 months ago
@cmax1966 So your solution with the FairTax is not only to give the mother of three CHILDREN that WORKS for a living a check of $423 a month ($5,072 a year), but to hand it to EVERYONE whether they work or not. In fact, under your plan homeless people that do nothing but ride the train (as you put) it will be getting a $208 check every month. EIC only applies to working parents of children. Your FairTax solution creates a whole society of people that are not motivated to collect their check.
milofonbil 4 months ago 2
@milofonbil Where do you come up with these numbers. if you read closely to what I said you would understand. What we need to have is a flat tax across the board. No loopholes national sales tax of say 5%. That way even the rich pay thier share and so deos everybody else. that means even the homeless pay if they end up buying something. I say completely cut out any EIC and child tax credits. Why should anyone get special tax breaks for having kids. No one told this mother of 3 to have them.
cmax1966 4 months ago
@cmax1966 (CONT.) I cannot see how you get I was wanting to give them a check, please learn better read comprehension my friend. I am for cutting out those EIC bonuses each year.
cmax1966 4 months ago
@cmax1966 of course there are loopholes around a flat sales tax. The super rich don't consume much in comparison to what they earn through investing and speculation. Are you going to tax me a sales tax when I buy apartment buildings, shopping centers and small islands? Of course not. The objective of this whole flat tax nonsense is to tax the crap out of poor and middle class people. A 5% sales tax won't be enough to run government (which does all the unprofitable stuff).
milofonbil 2 months ago
@milofonbil and eliminates the punishment for those who are motivated to work.
holycanoliotis 2 months ago
@holycanoliotis No, it really delivers more "punishment" on poor people and the middle class, while the rich get major tax breaks even though they benefit the most from the commons. Speculators who earn the most (such as hedge fund managers) pay nothing. And, in fact, it punishes people that are unable to work the hardest such as the physically and mentally handicapped, the elderly and the illiterate.
The beneficiaries are clearly people that can afford paying taxes the most.
milofonbil 2 months ago
(cont) Your family of 4 where both parents working full time making minimum wage or 23k currently gets a refund of Earned Income Credit of $5,036, plus $2000 for the Child Tax Credit. This is not zero as with the so-called tax, but a REFUND of $7,036, beyond what they paid in on taxes. Again, the working poor are FAR worse off with your SO-CALLED FairTax.
How many people making a million a year only spend 23K? The expenses will be shifted to the corporate income where there is no tax.
milofonbil 4 months ago
If one accepts the "22 millon$ of research" of "Fair" Tax supporters, one has to accept the following :
1) On average, would raise the taxes of those making from $15k to $159k and would lower the taxes of those making over $150k
2) Someone is "better off" if his inc. drops from about $40k a year to $10k (Table 13 yr 7-8 , tinyurl 593htl
3)The econ. will take of in a pos. manner if most people ($15k to $150k) have less money after tax
Don't take my word,read it: tinyurl 593htl, page 30 on
Diskatopia 7 months ago
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dh234ful 5 months ago
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@Diskatopia You do realize you linked an article and then quote passages from pg. 30 the "unrealistic model" instead of pg. 34 the "more realistic model" which states "the results are printed on the last line of table 14 and show that %91 will be better off over their lifetime as a result of the fair tax. Even the losers would not lose by much; of the 10,000 cases, the biggest loser would see his or her utility fall by just 1.1%."
Lol, epic article link fail.
dh234ful 5 months ago
wait i thought consumption is good for the economy? now you're saying that people who consume are TAKING from the economy?
ANTIMKrebirth 7 months ago
The "Fair" Tax aka national Sales Tax- Inclusive aka NASTI would on average raise the federal taxes of those making from $15k-$150k a year while lowering the fed taxes of those making over $150k a year. This is not debateable, it is from supporters' own site and "research".
How do they claim the middle classes will still be better off, then? By asserting that if one's income drops from $35k to $10k a year, one is better off. Does any sensible person think that way? tinyurl 593htl, table 13.
FairTaxisaLie 8 months ago
I wish I had this kid's passion. @ItchMyFoot your point would mean a lot more to people if it was made clearly and without personal insults and cursing. If you want people to agree with you, don't insult them, educate them. Make a speech like this kid and post it so we can hear YOUR point of view.
Hateires 8 months ago
Here is Fairtax explained by a 60 year old, who read Fairtax footnotes and fine print, and talked to the official Fairtax spokesmen'
Fairtax is total and complete and utter bullshit. It sounds great to stupid people, and to people who have no clue what is in the fine print and footnotes.
ItchMyFoot 8 months ago
@ItchMyFoot you wanna talk about "footnotes"? the Obamacare bill was over 1000 pages long, and even nancy pelosi was quoted saying we won't know the extent of what is in the bill until after we pass it.
LoganCookMusic 8 months ago
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ItchMyFoot 8 months ago
@LoganCookMusic It doesnt fucking matter what Obama care is, you lunatic. This is about the 300 billion dollar HIDDEN tax that Fairtax has on PENSIONS -- got that yet, you stupid shit, PENSIONS. A 300 billion dollar tax that has to be paid IN ADVANCE -- on PENSIONS and wages.
And it's only in a FOOTNOTE you stupid shit. And that is just one of many bogus hidden crap in Fairtax.
Their own leaders know it's goofy -- got that you idiot. It's a fucking farce.
ItchMyFoot 8 months ago
@ItchMyFoot I said absolutely nothing in my comment about my views on whether or not I thought fair tax was right or wrong. My comment was about Obamacare, so why don't you think twice next time before calling some a "lunatic", "Idiot", and a "Stupid s#$%". Good job Illustrating to everyone how confused and uneducated you are. You have made a fool of yourself.
Have fun with life.
LoganCookMusic 8 months ago
mindOF -
You can't just do an estate tax, cause it would amount to 1% of what the fair tax would bring in... Plus thats just a tax on the wealthy, I'm not my self, wish I were, but I dont agree on punishing peoples accomplishments...!
johnboychase69 8 months ago
Why not simply introduce a wealth tax on real estate and abolish the rest? I would need literaly 10 government officials to run it. Everyone estimates the value of their land/houses and based on that you pay ex. 3% a year tax. BUT if you estimate the value too low the government may buy it from you paying the price you indicated. People who don't own real estate would also "pay" it in a way cause obviously the rent would go up. So you have a computer system, 10 guys and a system you cant cheat!
mindOFAlibertarian 9 months ago
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From BHI/fairtaxorg:"Households in the lowest income band, with an (AGI) of less than $10,000 annually, would benefit because they would receive the prebate that would more than offset any higher cost of purchasing goods.Households in the top income category, with more than $150,000 in annual income, would also gain as they do not have to pay their highest marginal tax rates. Mid-income category households would lose because the Fair Tax would impose a relatively higher tax rate on them."
Diskatopia 9 months ago
Income tax is the fairest way to tax to pay for society-- taxing the benefit people gain from our society (income) at the source, to pay for those benefits that make the society that benefits them so great, allowing them to earn in that society.
The "Fair" Tax aka National Sales Tax-Inclusive aka NASTI has been shown by many econ. experts, and even supporters own research (see the BHI papers at their site) to hammer the middleclasses while massively cutting the taxes of the wealthy.
Diskatopia 9 months ago 2
@Diskatopia - Still playing class warfare, I see. No doubt you're still in the zero tax bracket too. I don't blame you, if I wasn't paying my fair share, I'd troll too.
NAGGERNUTZ 7 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ Still making class warfare I see, defending the absurd idea that millionaires, who pay a lower effective rate in federal taxes than most doctors, lawyers, dentists, and small businessmen, should pay even less and not pay their fair share of federal taxes I see. Still defending a tax that is a backdoor way of killing Social Security I see.
Still rebutting not one single fact I post, as usual, and just spouting strawman and ad hominem attacks, as is usual for those with no facts.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia - Oh here we go again. Still a liberal, still in that zero tax bracket and still lying. The rich already pay a higher tax rate per household income level than the middle class or the poor. Here's the CBO figures: tinyurl*com/qa8d9a ... But I'm sure you'll even deny the governments own numbers. I'll not even get into the IRS figures that prove at least 45% of Americans pay little or NO taxes. I do have facts, you just deny facts and make up your own.
NAGGERNUTZ 7 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ ""45% of Americans pay little or NO taxes"... false. Those who pay little or no FEDERAL INCOME taxes are hit by SS,state, city,and county sales taxes, excise taxes, state income taxes, license fees, federal and state utility taxes, federal and state gasoline taxes, property taxes, et cetera ad nauseum. When all are added in, the middleclasses pay plenty of taxes, and it clearly causes them more "pain" to their standard-of-living than the effective rates on millionaires do them.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia - I knew you'd even dispute the IRS's own numbers. Actually, it's 47% of Americans that pay little or no taxes... IRS.
"About 47 percent will pay no federal income taxes at all. Either their incomes were too low, or they qualified for enough credits, deductions and exemptions to eliminate their liability. That's according to projections by the Tax Policy Center, a Washington research organization." - AP Washington
The tax code is packed with deductions. You know that.
NAGGERNUTZ 7 months ago
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@NAGGERNUTZ Try again, read carefully-- "it's 47% of Americans that pay little or no taxes"again, false, unless you insert the word "FEDERAL INCOME" between "no" and "taxes. You seem to want to ignore that important qualifier (hint, it is in your AP quote).
Nigh everyone pays taxes, those I listed are just some of many.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia - I see you didn't try to dispute the CBO's numbers.
NAGGERNUTZ 7 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ I see you didn't try to dispute that what I stated was correct-- that those making million$ on average pay a lower effective federal rate (21% and down to16.5% for the top 400) than many dentists, doctors, and small businessmen.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia - I didn't dispute it because I couldn't make heads or tails of your numbers. Your links didn't work either.
NAGGERNUTZ 7 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ re the data: of course top QUINTILE pays more than 2nd, it INCLUDES those folks making 100k-200k-- dentists, doctors, small businesspeople-- who ARE, as I stated, paying HIGHER rates than the top 1/10th of 1%, who are skating with an eff.rate of around 21%, the top 1/100th of 1% having an avg. effective rate of roughly 18%, and the 1/10000th of 1% having about 16.5% (tinyurl forbes400inc,tinyurl top400income). ALL of those rates=lower than nigh ever, the result=massive job losses.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ And you want RAISE the taxes of those making from $15k to $150k so you can LOWER the taxes of those making more, and and you want to do away with Social Security (the foolish "Fair" Tax aka National Sales Tax -Inclusive aka NASTI does those things and much worse)...talk about class warfare, you want to turn this nation into a feudal plutocracy... and you accuse others of class warfare-- talk about psychological projection, lol.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia - Please don't be stupid Paul. You know the FairTax prebate untaxes the poor. Nobody said anything about "doing away with Soc Sec, you did. If all you have to look forward to at retirement is Soc Sec, then you have bigger problems than the tax code. Social security was NEVER intended to be an individual's sole source of retirement income. It was only intended as a supplement to a prudent person's retirement plan. Sorry you didn't prepare.
NAGGERNUTZ 7 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ Please don't be slow, NUTZ, you JUST STATED the poor ( the bottom of that 47%)pay "no taxes" NOW , and you know the "Fair Tax" aka NASTI raises the effective federal taxes of those who make from $15k to $150k while lowering the taxes of those who make more than $150k. Why are you declaring class warfare on the middle classes? PS-- if you don't think it does away with Social Security answer this-- how will the amounts each retiree gets be decided? Hint-- they can't, no "paid in" data.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia -
Paul please. Stop trying to spin what I said. The IRS says 47% of Americans pay little or no income taxes. YOU assumed I said the poor. I didn't, I simply said, 47% of Americans pay little or no income taxes. That's not fair Period.
Social Security will still receive wage and salary information Paul. Please, use your head.
NAGGERNUTZ 7 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ Surely you can't be ThAt slow? I'll just attribute it to you dodging the facts so you can keep your fantasy alive... that 47 %(which can be basically found in yourown link if you understand it) , yes from your own link, INCLUDES THE POOR , lol. Hint:bottom quintile.
Try and keep up.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia - Yes Paul, try to keep up. Man up and get off your ass. Put away your childhood fantasies and provide for your family. Stop whining about your entitlements. The truth to tell, you're not concerned so much about the tax code as you are losing your free ride on the public dole. This is the greatest country in the world. We have more education and job training opportunities than any other country. The poor in this country are poor by choice. And that's a fact.
NAGGERNUTZ 7 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ Sigghhhh, that's it, blather on into false ad hominem, imagining that everyone who supports a decent taxation system that doesn't hammer those making from $15k to $150k is just out for themselves (more psycholofgical projection on your part).. imagine that Buffett has some nefarious reason for wanting his taxes raised... and keep dodging those facts that might tear down your fantasy of getting the "Fair" Tax aka NASTI enshrined, even if it would harm the nation.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia - Paul. Didn't I say Man up? How about trying it instead of making wild assumptions about me? YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW THE FAIRTAX WILL AFFECT ANYONE SINCE IT'S BASED PURELY ON CONSUMPTION. Paul, every household spends differently. How many poor people go out spending on new items each month? Go get that figure... if it exists. Now I'm un-American because I want a booming economy? Because I want our economy on an even playing field with the rest of the world? Please Paul.
NAGGERNUTZ 7 months ago
From BHI/fairtxorg:"Households in the lowest income band,with an adj. gross income (AGI) of less than $10,000 annually, would benefit because they would receive the prebate that would more than offset any higher cost of purchasing goods. Households in the top income cat.,with more than $150,000 in annual income, would also gain as they do not have to pay their highest marginal tax rates. Mid-income cat. households would lose because the FairTax would impose a relatively higher tax rate on them.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia - You're in the lower income bracket Paul, what are you worried about? Oh, wait, you're an American hero.
NAGGERNUTZ 7 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ That's it, keep projecting and spouting ad hominem and strawman, NUTZ, anything to keep from admitting that you've been shown wrong repeatedly. Keep dodging, you can keep your fantasy alive!
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia - Paul, here's a clue. If it's true, it isn't ad hominem. Stop whining Paul.
NAGGERNUTZ 7 months ago
You might want to go read the "research" at fairtaxorg (the folks pushing this crock tax), since they claim to know that info, and they state that on average it would raise the effective tax rates of those making from roughly $15k to 150k a year while lowering the rates of those who make more. Your oft-repeated by FT/NASTI fans claim that it would create a "booming econ." is also in there (hint: it would be"booming".. on average for all who make $150k or more..for those who make less- crashing).
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia - Paul, please. I've practically begged you to stop the bullshit spin. If the economy is booming, wouldn't it be much easier for the poor people, that you claim to champion, to find better jobs? Better chances for education and-or career training? You're so sorry for yourself, you make me sick. Unemployment is at 9.2%.
NAGGERNUTZ 7 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ Keep dodging, keep up the strawmen, keep avoiding the research from supporters' OWN site, lol, maybe one day you will go read it, and you will see the tricks they pull for the "booming" econ. (hint: if someone's income drops from $50k to 10k is he better off, is that "booming"? According to their research, it is)... and then "man up" and come back and admit how wrong you are. PS-- remember, no full names or addys or your account will go byebye like last time. That gets you so angry.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia - Paul, don't fucking threaten me! Little man, I live real close to Chattanooga. YOU put your personal information on the fucking internet for the world to see, I didn't. Fuck with my account punk and this time you won't be sitting at home laughing. I guarantee it. I haven't said anything about you that you don't have on your own fucking channel page.
NAGGERNUTZ 7 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ Careful, you are close to crossing that line again. I repeat, remember what happened last time. When you break the rules, you bring it on yourself. Your veiled threat is likely enough for me to report at this time, but I won't unless you keep it up, NUTZ. If you feel the desperate need to post private info, post your own all you want, no one cares.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia - Don't start shit, there won't be any. I've said all I need to say.
NAGGERNUTZ 7 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ Before you "sure YouTube sees the dialog here", you might want to reread and see that you threatened me, all I said was I would report any violations by you here, so if you send this to them, you will end up getting your own account deleted when they read the threat.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia - "PS-- remember, no full names or addys or your account will go byebye like last time. That gets you so angry." If that isn't threatening and or harassing, you have nothing to worry about. Again, I've said all I need to. I can't control what you do. I can defend myself.
NAGGERNUTZ 7 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ I know I have nothing to worry about, as it is neither threatening nor harassing, it is the same as last time-- if you break the TOS with your threats and such, they will kick you out again, just like they did last time. Your "I know where you live" threat at me is visible to all, so if you want to send it in to YT and incriminate yourself, that is your problem.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia - "Provoke": "Stimulate or incite (someone) to do or feel something, esp. by arousing anger in them". If anything, YouTube will also see that you provoked my response. It could also mean that both accounts could be deleted, it's your call.
NAGGERNUTZ 7 months ago
@Diskatopia - Remember, 2 can play that game. I will make sure YouTube sees the dialog here, and how you've talked to me.
NAGGERNUTZ 7 months ago
@Diskatopia - Tell me this Mr American hero... how many deductions do you claim when you file your tax return? Be honest for once. You know as well as I do that you claim as many as you can get your paws on. You also know that you're in the zero tax bracket. And you're still whining? Just a little hypocritical Paul.
NAGGERNUTZ 7 months ago
@Diskatopia HINT: The poor are NOT defined by the bottom quintile. If this were true, then 20% of the people would always be poor. The poor are defined by the poverty line. People that don't earn above the poverty line are considered poor. The nation's poverty rate rose to 15.1% in 2010, up from 14.3% (approximately 43.6 million) in 2009 and to its highest level since 1993. But the number of people that are barely above the poverty line has also grown, due to no increase in minimum wage.
milofonbil 5 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ With your "FAIR TAX", how many people will collect the "prebate" checks? All of them. How many people will be paying a tax? All of them. But answer this question: How many will pay more tax than the prebate?
milofonbil 5 months ago
@milofonbil - Everybody.
NAGGERNUTZ 5 months ago
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@NAGGERNUTZ I think you managed not to read my question. How many will pay MORE tax than the PREBATE?
milofonbil 5 months ago
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milofonbil 5 months ago
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@Diskatopia - "you know the "Fair Tax" aka NASTI raises the effective federal taxes of those who make from $15k to $150k while lowering the taxes of those who make more than $150k"... stop spinning Paul. You have NO WAY of knowing how the FairTax will raise or lower anyone's tax liability since it's a consumption tax based upon spending on new items.
NAGGERNUTZ 7 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ Of course this can be predicted. Marketing organizations know very well who spends on what. Why don't you read the book "The Millionaire Next Door". It was written by marketeers studying the spending habits of the very rich. It will help you understand that many people become millionaires by following the following rule: It's not what you earn, but what you keep. The upper quintile does not have to spend everything they earn to survive.
milofonbil 5 months ago
@Diskatopia - Paul, I'm not going to argue with you. Look around. Do you see more than a handful of people who are against the FairTax? For once in your life tell the truth. I'm sorry you wasted your life Paul. Now you want taxpayers to bail you out. Yes Paul, I know where you live, remember? The low rent district. Accept responsibility for your failures. Don't make your family pay for it. I'm not trying to insult you. I'm simply calling a spade a spade.
NAGGERNUTZ 7 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ I am not arguing with you, just putting the facts up so others can see, those like you will never look at the facts and will keep ignoring them. All I see are a handful of people in favor of FT/NASTI mainly because they have not seen the facts, and a smaller handlful of , let's be honest, foolish ones who will never face the the facts because doing so tears down their "Fair" Tax fantasy.
PS-No, you are simply the sad goob who just can't understand that that is our rental house, lol.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia - OK Paul, sad goob or not, I'm not whining about not having a retirement, dependent upon others for my retirement... that would be you. If you had anything Paul, you wouldn't be whining about Social Security and your precious entitlements. You're more transparent than glass.
NAGGERNUTZ 7 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ Typical of the selfish, NUTZ, you cannot imagine that anyone would want what is best for the nation, it is all about "yourself" to you, how a tax hits you and you alone. Such greed above nation is.. just sad, and unpatriotic. Go read something by, say, Warren Buffett, you might learn that national interests are more important than self-interests to real Americans.
PS-- Social Security is not an "entitlement" any more than someone's 401k is an entitlement.
Diskatopia 7 months ago
@Diskatopia - Paul, again you assume. This year alone, I donated more to local charities than you, I guarantee. So now I'm selfish? My wife and I paid $5,000 to our counties new no-kill animal shelter. We donate to our local soup kitchen. We donate to our church who uses the money to pay for major surgery for those who need it. How much did you donate Paul?
NAGGERNUTZ 7 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ Once people understand the real truth behind the "FAIR TAX", they are against it. The so-called FAIR TAX raises the tax obligations on the lower four quintiles and drops the tax obligations on the upper quintile.
milofonbil 5 months ago
@milofonbil - I think you're wrong. My wife is a CPA and a corporate officer for a Fortune 500 company. Her brother is a Deputy AG for a state that I won't mention here for obvious reasons. They've both studied the FairTax and both support it. I won't get into particulars here, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
NAGGERNUTZ 5 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ Well, think what you want. Naturally any CFO of a Fortune 500 company would be all over the so-called Fair?Tax Her brother, the Deputy AG may not have read the fine print yet. But where we can agree is that only consumption is taxed making this a very regressive tax. Regressive taxes shift the tax burden from those that can afford to pay taxes to those that can afford them the least. The end effect will be a massive increase in poverty. I've studied the Fair?Tax and oppose it
milofonbil 5 months ago
@milofonbil - I'm sorry, I failed to mention that my wife's brother is a Deputy AG who handles all tax cases for his state. Neither my wife or her brother rose to their positions by being stupid or by making an endorsement before first looking at all the evidence. If I were having tax problems, there are no other people I'd trust more than them, and not just because we're related. If CFO's were "all over it", then that's a good thing for business. What's good for business is good for America.
NAGGERNUTZ 5 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ (YouTube was rejecting my posts to me, but posting anyway) Did you ever think that they may be all over it for their own gains and not that of their business? What is good for Wall Street is not necessarily good for Main Street.
milofonbil 5 months ago
@milofonbil - I would suggest that you read Milton Friedman "Free To Choose, A Personal Statement". You sound cynical. Business drives our economy. Not every business owner is a criminal.
NAGGERNUTZ 5 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ I never said that very business owner is a criminal. Yes, businesses can drive the economy. However, businesses are in business to benefit themselves, not the whole society. They accumulate wealth for themselves. But if corporations benefit, it does not mean that small businesses or employees benefit. The upper 1% has massively grown over the last 20 years, but the number of the poor has increased, not decreased. Trickle-down economics is a farse.
milofonbil 5 months ago
@milofonbil - It seems that everybody who posts comments on FairTax videos 1.- haven't really read about it, or 2.- Argue based on ideological grounds. You seem to have an ideological aversion to anyone who makes more money than you. My wife and I grew up dirt poor, but we took advantage of what was available to us. Now we live a very comfortable life. I suggest that you stop vilifying those who've achieved success and go out and get your slice of the pie.
NAGGERNUTZ 5 months ago
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milofonbil 5 months ago
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milofonbil 5 months ago
@milofonbil Well, think what you want. Naturally any CFO of a Fortune 500 company would be all over the so-called "FairTax" Her brother, the Deputy AG may not have read the fine print yet. But where we can agree is that only consumption is taxed making this a very regressive tax.
milofonbil 5 months ago
@milofonbil Regressive taxes shift the tax burden from those that can afford to pay taxes to those that can afford them the least. The end effect will be a massive increase in poverty. I've studied the "FairTax" and oppose it
milofonbil 5 months ago
@milofonbil - "Regressive taxes shift the tax burden from those that can afford to pay taxes to those that can afford them the least. The end effect will be a massive increase in poverty". That's where the FairTax rises above ordinary consumption based taxes. The pre-bate totally un-taxes the poor on all essential items up to the poverty line. The FairTax is designed to encourage saving and investing and is revenue neutral.
NAGGERNUTZ 5 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ OK ... so the poverty line is now up to $15,000. So the prebate is $15,000, Anyone making up to $15,000 gets a $3000 check and then spends everything, taxed at 20% ..so they pay $3,600 in tax. I'm assuming rent, utilities, food, etc will be taxed
On a side note, does this mean everyone gets a check for (FairTax rate * $15,000) or something like $3000? How often would the govt be mailing out the checks? Do they come out all at the same time?
milofonbil 5 months ago
@milofonbil - No. The FairTax pre-bate check is monthly. The pre-bate is based on family size, married or single. Every US citizen receives the pre-bate. You said you've studied the FairTax, but these are basic components of the FairTax. Have you studied it or not? You're asking me basic questions that you should already know.
NAGGERNUTZ 5 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ I am checking out what you know. E.g. Another one of you FairTaxers in this same thread told me that homeless people won't get a prebate check. If he does not know the basics, then how can he know any of the fine print details? The reason I'm asking is because I have read both the Senate and Congress version of the bill. Some of it is very eyeopening. Does FairTax eliminate Social Security and Medicare? YES. How will you survive or pay medical expenses?
milofonbil 5 months ago
@milofonbil - From what I've read in other posts, he's right. Homeless people are what they are. Yes, they do beg for money, eat in soup kitchens and live on the streets or in homeless shelters... but since FairTax is a consumption tax, they'd still be paying taxes when they spend the money that they beg for. I would imagine, if they want the pre-bate check, they'll have to open a bank account and/or get a mailing address. It would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 to 400 bucks a month.
NAGGERNUTZ 5 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ Fair enough. That was the answer I was looking for. Now since FairTax takes away Social Security and Medicare, how will retirees live? (most have not saved enough for their retirement because they never made enough money or were not prudent) How will they get healthcare? Healthcare prices are completely out of control.
milofonbil 5 months ago
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@milofonbil - Show me where it says Social Security and Medicare will be taken away please.
NAGGERNUTZ 5 months ago
@milofonbil - I'm unaware of any section of the FairTax that says Social Security and Medicare would be eliminated. I'll take your word, but I'd like read it for myself. Please give me the link so I can check it out. FairTax and our current tax code have nothing to do with Social Security and Medicare other than funding them. FairTax is revenue neutral and designed to fund both. "How will you survive or pay medical expenses"... I don't understand the question. What do you mean?
NAGGERNUTZ 5 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ "This nonpartisan legislation (HR 25) abolishes all federal personal
and corporate income taxes, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, and selfemployment taxes and replaces them with one simple, visible, federal retail sales tax – administered primarily by existing state sales tax authorities" Source: Fair Tax Prebate Explained Fairtax dot org TinyURL 3vvw8ty HR25 Sections 101-103 TinyURL bdsjlx If you had ACTUALLY had read the bill...
milofonbil 5 months ago
@milofonbil - Ha ha ha! Dude, read what you wrote again please. "abolishes all federal personal and corporate income taxes, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, and self employment taxes AND REPLACES THEM WITH ONE SIMPLE, VISIBLE, FEDERAL RETAIL SALES TAX". It says nothing about abolishing Social Security and Medicare. All it says is that it combines everything into one tax! LOL!
NAGGERNUTZ 5 months ago
@milofonbil - Are you still checking what I know? Because your questions seem rather elementary.
NAGGERNUTZ 5 months ago
@NAGGERNUTZ First of all thanks for being civil rather than calling me names. My questions are elementary sounding because I can't show you the details without pointing out that you really don't know as much as you might think. I do this by slowly calling your attention to the holes between the propaganda and the truth. Actually, most pro-FairTaxers know very little about HR25. Since I've given you a link TinyURL bdsjlx will you please read the bill?
milofonbil 5 months ago
@milofonbil - No problem. No sense in name calling. I have read the bill. And my wife and her brother have also read the bill. There is also a plain language version. As I said before, I know of no other person that's as knowledgeable about federal taxes as my wife and her brother. It runs in the family. My wife graduated Summa from UNC and Magna at Duke University (MBA). Her brother was summa from the University of Maryland and graduated in the top 5 of his law school at UVA.
NAGGERNUTZ 5 months ago
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@milofonbil - "Regressive taxes shift the tax burden from those that can afford to pay taxes to those that can afford them the least. The end effect will be a massive increase in poverty". That's where the FairTax rises above ordinary consumption based taxes. The pre-bate totally un-taxes the poor on all essential items up to the poverty line. The FairTax is designed to encourage saving and investing and is revenue neutral.
NAGGERNUTZ 5 months ago
@Diskatopia He's denying the facts. According to HR 25 (2011) there IS language to kill Social Security, Medicare, Earned Income Credit, Inheritance Taxes, etc. The Social Security Admi