@Seigu007 Man can engineer molecules! It shows how it takes INTELLIGENCE in controlled laboratory conditions to mimic, manipulate, plagiarize a cell's Design! Scientists COPY genetic sequences!! They dont create anything!!
Its all Man made Synthetic chemistry! and it has nothing to do with the origin of life!! Homochirality is a disaster for any sort of naturalistic origins! There is no demonstrated source for such non-racemic mixture of sugars in any plausible pre-biotic environment!
This video gives me hope... and is a testament of human nurturing. we are evolved to be this and cannot change it . We are not religious we a re thoughtful.
DONT READ THIS CAUSE IT ACTUALLY WORKS. YOU WILL GET KISSED ON THE NEAREST POSSIBLE FRI. BY THE LOVE OF YOUR LIFE. TOMMOROW WILL BE TH EBEST DAY OF YOUR LIFE HOWEVER IF YOU DON'T POST THIS COMMENT TO THREE VIDEOS YOU WILL DIE WITHIN TWO DAYS. NO, YOU'VE ALREADY STARTED READING SO DON'T STOP. THIS IS SCARY. PUT THIS ON FIVE VIDEOS IN THE NEXT 143 MINUTES. WHEN YOUR DONE PRESS F6 AND YOUR LOVERS NAME WILL APPEAR ON THE SCREEN IN BIG LETTERS.THIS IS SCARY CAUSE IT happens
When people were dying in Nazi camps, where was God? Was she wondering what to do ? Did she have her period ? If theres a God shes an big time asshole.
@Hektor7788 God was where he always was ..The Nazis killed them , should god intervene with their choice to kill ? In that case , should God intervene in any killing ..( by that reasoning God should kill every abortion doctor and nurse right now ) ..and what about lesser sins ..If God intervened , every human on this earth would be dead ..because we deserve it ..including you .
@Hektor7788 Of course he does ..maybe if you stopped committing sin every day God would intervene . Stop slating God for letting men have their choice ..You want God to intervene , yet you never give him a thought day in day out , all you life ..yes when evil abounds you bleat " where is God " ...Try and grasp the magnitude of your hypocrisy
@Roper122 He did, the Question was "why should there be justice and hope?"--He say's "Every human heart has a moral sense", then he brings up the moral tragedy at Auschwitz!!! .....You atheist need to keep up. And he was answering a question, it doesn't need be in a form of an argument.
@Roper122 I agree with you that Lennox did beat around the bush on that question.
But the question she asked is circumstantial. If she had just been robbed before attending this debate, do you think she would ask "why should there be justice?" No, not at all.
Lennox: "People disagree with the philosophy of the Nazis, therefore the Abrahamic god created morality." "The number and qualities of the people who believe in god have no bearing on whether it is true. But this is evidence of whether it is true or not."
@iamheaseandwe Man can engineer molecules! It shows how it takes INTELLIGENCE in controlled laboratory conditions to mimic, manipulate, plagiarize a cell's Design! Scientists COPY genetic sequences!! They dont create anything!!
Its all Man made Synthetic chemistry! and it has nothing to do with the origin of life!! Homochirality is a disaster for any sort of naturalistic origins! There is no demonstrated source for such non-racemic mixture of sugars in any plausible pre-biotic environment!
I've rarely seen such a shameless display of fallacious argument than the haughty drivel that Lennox spewed out here. Summary of his points: "I am not personally satisfied with the current scientific explanation of morality, therefore GODDIDIT. Both atheists and theists can be moral, but christians have done certain great moral acts in history, therefore this is evidence of god's existence, if atheists do the same thing, this is evidence that god gave them a moral sense."
Something I'm curious about. Say there are a group of Chimpanzees, say 2 male and 2 female. They end up having lil chimpettes. One day a group of male chimpanzees turn up and seeing as they're so far from any phones or police stations they kill the 2 fathers and the children. They then rape the females so they can pass on their genes, the thing that motivates every living thing on the planet.
It makes me wonder, do they deserve "justice"? They WILL greive. Or do they not count? They too furry?
..bare in mind if a Human child is born outside of our civilization it will behave in the way that it's surrounding guardians behave. Essentially feral children clearly become what we are, animals, just untaught. Does the child count as a person? If they commit a crime or kill do they deserve hell?
This is what Atheists mean when they say Atheism is nothing. If people were brought up isolated from religion NONE of them would come up with the idea of a god. Especially not in the messianic sense.
Yes I would love a cookie. Evidence for what? I'm an atheist because there's a distinct lack of evidence for the existence of God. Same as you don't believe (I assume) in the existence of Thor. Because there's a lack of evidence. Or do you have evidence that Thor doesn't exist?
@Seigu007 Another example of when the given arguments are refuted resort to put downs and attempts to diminish character. The people on Lennox's side where cheering for him when he made good points. As usual, hypocrisy, judgement and blind one wayed analysis. America starts a war, well, Bush called it a crusade, against the East. When they fight back they're branded as evil. These all have something in common; an agenda. When it's denied, slowed down or invalid then the opposition are evil.
Lennox demonstrates, yet again, his complete inability to answer a question. He atarts answering one he has made up himself. The girls said "why should there be justice?". He just preaches agian and again.
We did get "civil laws" from Christianity "originally anyway"? As far as I know, we (in the "West") got them from a mixture of Roman and Germanic influences..(somewhat different traditions..) - which varies a bit depending on the country you focus on. And in the non-Christian world law codes also existed and exist..
If its one thing I as a Christian agree with atheists on, its that the Christian churches in America seem hell bent on creating a theocracy, while claiming they want to preserve American values of freedom and equality. I think it is obvious that Christianity was never meant to be in a place of power in government, because whenever it is both the government and Christianity is corrupted.
@philosophr149 Man can engineer molecules! It shows how it takes INTELLIGENCE in controlled laboratory conditions to mimic, manipulate, plagiarize a cell's Design! Scientists COPY genetic sequences!! They dont create anything!!
Its all Man made Synthetic chemistry! and it has nothing to do with the origin of life!! Homochirality is a disaster for any sort of naturalistic origins! There is no demonstrated source for such non-racemic mixture of sugars in any plausible pre-biotic environment!
@philosophizer149 in the OT, it is said that a leader who is for God is a blessing, while one who refuses to follow God is a curse. Godly values are of great importance, and in the OT had eternal significance for the people who are ruled by that leader. A king is the spiritual leader of his people, and an ungodly one can "lead his people into sin."
We have free will as always, but God does not call for His standards to remain independent of worldly government.
@dubyabee5 "I find it impossible to believe a moral sense can come out of anything other then a creator. Think about it."
You need to think harder. Notice how morals "evolve" throughout the ages... Your concept of "morals" can be explained by non-moral factors. Put simply, our social instincts developed from our survival instincts, and that in turn led to social rules and the concept of law, etc. Solidarity is innate in almost all mammalian species, so don't draw that up to god.
@dubyabee5 I think Shermer described it perfectly. You don't see physicists picketing outside of churches demanding equal time for science, so don't picket outside our schools demanding equal time for your propaganda.
Atheism doesn't have to have a basis for morality. Atheism is just the lack of belief in gods. Moral and immoral behavior evolved within us naturally. Religion merely formally codified morality. It didn't invent it, nor did any gods.
@Nightscream72 so can you objectively define our current "evolved" morality vs. a previous "evolved" morality? Or are you speaking of morali(ties) in the sense that one society loves their enemies, while another eats them.? In other words, are you honestly saying if a few thousand years from now molesting a child is found to be common place, then it is completely acceptable on the basis morality is merely a subjective ideal?
@jadkins00 I don't know what you mean by "current" or "previous" morality, since these terms imply discrete, finite points along a continuity. I never referenced "societies" or any particular sociological issue like child molestation. What I said is that moral behavior is a behavior that evolved within us, as it originates in the brain. It evolved due to selective pressures because it these behaviors generally helped as survive as individuals and a group.
@Nightscream72 yes but like John said, if its evolution, then why do we take care of sick and incapable people? if based on natural selection, then these animals no longer deserves to be alive and should die because they will have no good impact on the gene pool.
@xcode394 We take care of sick people because the empathy which drives us to do so is a behavior that evolved within us. Natural selection does *not* necessarily lead to organisms that stand by while sick members of their community die. With reptiles it does, but with mammals, it does not, because mammals need longer time spans to raise their young, so natural selection favored us because behaviors such as this are an adaptive advantage. Without this, we would not have survived as a species.
Shermer and other atheist i noticed when they talk about Christians, they are referring to people, but not what Christianity actually IS. They are novices when it comes to biblical theology.
@Creationcreed Your point being? This debate is about whether or not there is a god. Indeed I'm a novice on biblical theology and I have no intention changing that. I'm also a novice on the Quran, the Thora, Scientology, etc. Should I spend a lifetime studying dogmatic books in order to be allowed to have an opinion about believing in a god?
@Rosetree6 That depends on whether or not one or more of the books is actually a study of "dogmatic" systems? What if one contains objective truth? If I were to draw a circle representing all of the knowledge in the universe and then asked you to shade in the amount you believe you currently possess, would you not honestly leave the majority unshaded? Now, what if sufficient evidences of God exists within the unshaded? Without honest evaluation, are you not being unfair to your "rational?"
@jadkins00 Not at all! My honest, rational, evaluation is that there's no evidence whatsoever for God's existence. If at any point in time proper scientific evidence is presented (something I would find in Science magazine, Nature, etc.) I would accept it. If any of the books I mentioned contains objective truth, why then are there thousands of different interpretations for each of them? How objective then are you?
@luvlatinmamis no he didn't. That's like saying the reason gravity exists is because without it ,matter would scatter everywhere. Or because you can prove that unicorns exist because without them, little girls couldn't ride them over rainbows.
A potential consequence is not a proof for the existence of something.
@luvlatinmamis no he didn't. That's like saying the reason gravity exists is because without it ,matter would scatter everywhere. Or that you can prove that unicorns exist because without them, little girls couldn't ride them over rainbows.
A potential consequence is not a proof for the existence of something.
It took one person to convince others of abolition. Yet that person was a christian and corresponds with the christian teaches thus Christianity was the driving force behind abolition, it certainly wasn't secularism or atheism.
I was under the impresions hospitals predate Chrisitanity. The word is greek. So is the hypocratic oath. So is the symbol of medicine. It is the symbol of Mercury, a God no one belives in, rather ironicly.
@Nexius8 "and the school of medicine was first made."
You see I find this assertion particularly interesting because A, a school of medicine is not a hospital and B, Ancient Greece clearly did not have the first school of medicine.
I can't believe Lennox said that secularists were pro slavery. "What god said in the old testament and reaffirmed in the New testament can not be a sin" was said in defense of slavery in the south until the very end. Now of course they claim Christianity was against slavery all along, just like when the mormons got a "revelation" that it was ok for black to be clergymen in their church just in time for the civil rights movement. One does not know whether to laugh or cry at this evil stupidity.
@kaifroland With respect, I take issue with that. In order to call oneself a CHRISTian, one has to BEHAVE like one, following the commandments of CHRIST, such as "Love your neighbor as yourself" or "He who lives by the sword dies by it." Anyone can justify themselves by claiming their god-figure told them to do so, but if the majority of my actions contradict or go against the teachings of my Savior (say I'm a serial killer or rapist), then Jesus CANNOT be my Savior and I CANNOT be a Christian.
@mickdukes I'm gonna agree with you, I totally overstated my point. I was thinking of the kind of thing that went on in the Pentecostal church I used to go to, where the pastor would say, from the pulpit, that mormons weren't true christians, catholics weren't true christians (in fact they were polytheists whose leader, the pope, was satanic etc.) I see a lot of sects saying that others aren't "true christians" while using various bible verses to back such claims up. This is what I had in mind.
I don't see why Christian morality isn't relative either, it must depend surely on your interpretation of the Bible. For example thou shalt not kill. That might be broken by a christian during war or self defence without being considered immoral by many. Wouldn't this make the Bible's morality relative.?
Hilarious that people moaned after Lennox said Auschwitz...as if war and torture and cruelty have no place in a discussion on morals. Sorry to get so off topic.
Atheists do not believe morality is an illusion. More distortion! And Lennox is not very familiar with world religions - he thinks all good only comes from Christianity. This is obscene nonsense. And it was religion that started slavery and slavery is justified in the Bible. More distortions.
Atheists do not believe morality is an illusion. More distortion! And Lennox is not very familiar with world religions - he thinks all good only comes from Christianity. This is obscene nonsense. And it was religion that started slavery and slavery is justified in the Bible. More distortions.
Atheists do not believe morality is an illusion. More distortion! And Lennox is not very familiar with world religions - he thinks all good only comes from Christianity. This is obscene nonsense. And it was religion that started slavery and slavery is justified in the Bible. More distortions.
Atheists do not believe morality is an illusion. More distortion! And Lennox is not very familiar with world religions - he thinks all good only comes from Christianity. This is obscene nonsense. And it was religion that started slavery and slavery is justified in the Bible. More distortions.
Atheists do not belief morality is an illusion. More distortion! And Lennox is not very familiar with world religions - he thinks all good only comes from Christianity. This is obscene nonsense. And it was religion that started slavery and slavery is justified in the Bible. More distortions.
Atheists do not belief morality is an illusion. More distortion! And Lennox is not very familiar with world religions - he thinks all good only comes from Christianity. This is obscene nonsense. And it was religion that started slavery and slavery is justified in the Bible. More distortions.
Atheists do not belief morality is an illusion. More distortion! And Lennox is not very familiar with world religions - he thinks all good only comes from Christianity. This is obscene nonsense. And it was religion that started slavery and slavery is justified in the Bible. More distortions.
idiots... u guys just fail to see the intelligence in him in lennox, take ur bias aside and actually listen, his points are so understandable... ignorant fools dont talk to me when u actually wanna talk seriously... thank u... god bless u =)
Can Lennox really be a professor of mathematics? I am a high school student with an F in math, and even I find number of fallacies he has committed astonishing.
Lennox, listen carefully. Humans share a great deal of morality because we are all human. Christians not only posit that we are all human, they also add one particular god is responsible for it. It is evidence to differentiate the two that is required, or Occam's razor removes your god.
@askegg Well stop bothering with me and spend the time figuring out how to get around the is-ought problem. Maybe then you'll see why your so-called challenge, as it stands, is a false dichotomy.
In any case, Lennox points out (I think later) that Shermer's argument which you're repeating, simply doesn't deal with real altruism.
6:15 and afterwards: 'this is exactly what you would expect if Christianity were true' WOW I didn't know there was anyone this ignorant in the World. This man is half-retarded.
If all human beings have an inherent sense of morality like Lennox says, then there's no reason to believe it has to come from God. Christians are just trying to take credit for their religion which it doesn't deserve.
@alive555 a) how do you know they don't? and b) the idea that belief in god is required was explicitly rejected by Lennox. The point is how one philosophically justifies objective morality without a God.
@Exofluke I find it amusing how agitated anti-Christians are. Why does it piss you off so much? What does trying to prove it wrong accomplish. The idea that the idea of Christianity angering people just backs up Biblical teachings.
@dubyabee5 Well, I could make the argument that Christians are more concerned about forcing their beliefs on others than atheists. Most atheists, I think, don't mind religion at all, as long as the religious keep it to themselves. Trying to force creationism in school, waging wars based on so called "Christian values," corrupting politics under its guise, etc. - it's all just downright sinister.
@Exofluke So don't listen to him, and stop babbling about his incompetence without explaining how he is incompetent, because by making blind accusations and complaints, all you are speaking is nonsense.
Sorry ya'll! I give up! I can't watch it anymore! All the theist is doing to taking every point that is actually made and saying taht it belongs to Christianity. He said taht God gave moral to Christians and then je said taht all religions had morals and that they get it from a common pool of morality. He even contradicts himself.... This is a waste of time to anyone that can think for themselves!
@gary031183 And yet, Gary, you are the one who cannot string a sentence together at the end of the day. I, the theist, at least know proper grammar and spelling. Talk to me when you learn English my friend.
@Eragon1880 Yep! There were many typos in that comment. I guess I was in a rush. It was a great chance for you ("the theist") to try to take a cheap shot (and you did). Thank you for proving my point for me. Now that I have "learned English", you can now try to refute my original comment. I can't wait to hear from you! lol.
Oh, and I would like something in the form of facts and evidence, please!
@gary031183 Okay, first of all my point was just that you were acting all "intelligent" and you couldn't even type English properly. It wasn't a cheap shot, but just an observation that you can't be that intelligent if you can't spell properly (unless you're not American). Now that I see it was typo's, I take that back and apologize. And regarding the morality thing, if you actually saw John Lennox in other debates he says the reason why we are all moral as humans is because we are moral beings
@Eragon1880 Sorry man. Nothing you wrote came in the form of facts or evidence. You don't seem to be on the attack as you were before? Why? I can take it! I'm not easily offended.
Please provide the proof now that your position can be supported with. (We won't be holding our breath)
Make sure you also post your comment to "baldurus1" who you also attacked without proof.
@gary031183 As a response to your first point I'll say that I was trying to be on the offensive but YouTube gives you a limited amount of space to comment. You also seem to seek evidence for every little thing but oyu are not willing to apply a mixture of possible evidence, rationality, and logic to come to a conclusion.
In the end of the day it was ruled that O.J Simpson did not kill his wife. Now, although the evidence was against it, is it so far fetched as to say he was guilty?
@Eragon1880 RESP #1 You are just messing with me aren't you? lol
1st, about the OJ thing: OJ did have evidence against him but there is a legal/criminal process involved and since the evidence couldn't be trusted due to evidence tamptering by the police, he got off. NOT BECAUSE OF LACK OF EVIDENCE!!!!! This might be the problem.... You believers seem to see everything through rose tinted glasses. Try to ask the questions that a non-believer would ask before you jump on the bandwagon please.
@gary031183 Response#2 - Now, you seek so called "evidence". There is plenty of evidence, although it isn't clear cut and you can decide for yourself whether to trust that particular evidence or not. Firstly, there were many people who've seen Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad do miracles. Now, if you say that not one of them was telling the truth (all the followers of these religions) then that's pretty close minded. Also, like I said before, how can you think rationally if you evolved irrationally?
@Eragon1880 "There is plenty of evidence, although it isn't clear cut..."
Here is the definition of evidence: "To indicate clearly; exemplify or prove."
For it to even be counted as evidence, it HAS to be "clear cut".
"Jesus, Muhammed, and Moses did do miracles" Oh goodness! Either you are insane or you are Muslim, that is the only way you could pt those three characters together and believe both jesus and muhammed did miracles.
If yoare muslim, Islam has already been disproven.
What John is saying @ around 6:00 also applies to all kinds of social animals yet they're not Christian at all...they don't even have a concept of God. What a weak argument he makes. There's a video on youtube showing a dog going after another dog on a highway that was hit and injured. Why did the dog do that? God? Please.
@baldurus1 I agree that those were immoral acts, which more likely stemmed not from the teachings of God, but the perverted use of religion for political expediency and to justify heinous crimes.
@baldurus1 Wow, utter ignorance at it's greatest! Jews were NOT killed in the name of God, but rather for political reasons. I hate when people confuse natural cruelty and politics with religion. Jesus was a Jew and he never taught to kill them. And I'm a Jew, btw. And can you tell me where in the NT it says to kill Jews? Personally, I think Germany/Austria as a nationality is anti-Semitic, but not Christians in general. They are by far one of the nicest people I've ever seen.
@Eragon1880 Wow, backup. Where did i ever mention the bible or the NT??? I was addressing the claim that "without religion there can be no morality". And my point is that religion can be a dangerous tool in the wrong hands. "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." A. Hitler
And all statistics show Atheists being more law abiding then theists.
Millions of people get killed because they forgot god? Riiiiiight... Lennox finally jumped off the deep end. I admirer Shermer's patience with this clown.
Also, the people torturing other people in Auschwitz were Christians. Each and every one of them.
@MomoTheBellyDancer "ALL the people torturing other people in Auschwitz were Christians. Each and every one of them." Wow...that's a sweeping categorical statement (I'm not sure that's the case). Also, I don't remember Jesus teaching this kind of behavior. Is it your position that CHRIST taught this kind of behavior?
@MomoTheBellyDancer Oh, I see your logic...Jesus who came to His own (the Jews) taught that the Jews should be killed in concentration camps. That's difficult to buy! Sounds more like a case of religion being perverted and abused for political power. Again, your statement is sweeping, as well as misguided. And by the way, your source of morality stems from where?
"Jesus who came to His own (the Jews) taught that the Jews should be killed in concentration camps"
No, but he cursed the towns that didn't care for his preaching. He also said that people who don't believe in him will go to hell. I have much higher moral standards than that.
Apparently it was the Quakers that had a large interest in slavery, as it was their ships sailing from Bristol (a major white slave trade port) to America selling the slaves.
Lennox is a true fool, - well that is exactly what you would expect if there was a god so you would expect them to have a moral pool fuck off lennox you wanker lets have cake and lets eat it too fucking tool
"Why do you care that there be morality in the world?"
This is actually a good question to ask theists. If they answer as Lennox did that the world would be a terrible place without morality, then what they've just done is give a SECULAR reason for morality! So why the need for a God?
Richard Dawkins has explained his beliefs on the origins of morality explicitly. Lennox is hoodwinking the audience by making them think that Dawkins is hypocritical on this point. Great response by Shermer.
My "basic grounds" of morality doesn't come from your imaginary friend Lennox. You are a fraud. No atheist I know ever proclaimed morality is an illusion. The caricature of absolute authoritarian morality, is an illusion (or actually, more like a delusion), as it is only predicated on the assumption of a supernatural fantasy dictator. Dangerous stuff, given your imaginary dictator, is not the only one possible, & you have already washed your hands of evil perpetrated in the name of your God.
Lennox point was not that athiests have no morality. He says that all people regardless have an inbuilt moral compass. His point was that athiesm has no real "grounds" for morallty. ie morality for the materialist can only be a relative thing..What might be good for the "selfish gene" this year, might be different next..
OK, then morality is innate. So why does anybody bother to mention it in the context of religious debate? Do you suppose Lennox has no intention of at least implying that because atheism has no grounds for morality we might like to stick a bit of goddidit in the moral vacuum left by atheism. He might just as well mention that atoothfairyism (absence of belief in the toothfairy) has no grounds for morality. Neither convictions or lack of (read conclusions) are grounds for anything.
I dont think Lennox is relying on the "moral argument" to prove in the existance of God. But I think this argument makes more sense of our reality/who we are, and points to the existance of a holy and just being/creator God.
@skepticoz ...well he uses the "moral" argument because it is one that "points" to the existance of God, (others arguments sometimes employed by theists are the ontological, cosmological, teleological & Historical/ethnolgoical)...but I reckon all these are just testimony or pointers..not really arguments or proofs that would compel someone to believe beyond doubt.
Lennox is a charlatan. Devoid of an intellectual answer, he appeals to emotion. Auschwitz and the death of Solzhenitsyn are pathetic attempts to dodge the question.
It's also telling how often Lennox claims to be persuaded by "evidence" yet he offers no evidence himself. This is a tedious technique of distraction - "see I respect evidence therefore I must have heaps of it." Bullllllllshit. He's a fraud.
Actually, the fact that primates have similar characteristics actually grants the point that he is making. If God does not exist, we are no different from a bucket of slime. There is no intrinsic worth for us, because the concept of worth would be an illusion. Therefore the idea of giving ourselves worth is in itself an illusion as well, so if God does not exist but we choose to give ourselves worth, we are ultimately living a good life based on a lie.
As far as anyone can tell, the other primates do not have a clue about the concept of god. Lennox is arguing that we need god. The other primates seem to do quite well.
" we are ultimately living a good life based on a lie. " Turn this upside down and you've got the real problem.
As an atheist, I may be wrong, but I'm not living a lie. I will continue to live my life based on the best evidence available.
TippyCando, I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not talking living your life based on your belief that there is no evidence for God. I'm talking about the subject of worth and value. If God does not exist, then logically giving ourselves value is an illusion, because after all as you have said, "The other primates seem to do quite well." If God does not exist, we don't need value and worth any more than a rock needs it, because the question of value would be irrelevant.
It is certainly true that if all life came to an end on this planet, the universe would not care at all. In that sense, we on thiws planet do not have any intrinsic value. So the question becomes, What does the term "value" mean.
Even if there is a god(the christian one for ease of reference), why would that make us worth anything more. Lennox merely asserts that to be the case.
"If God does not exist, we are no different from a bucket of slime."
Speak for yourself slimebucket. The concept of self worth IS NOT an illusion failing the existence of your vengeful, petty, barbaric sky pixie. My self worth as an atheist, goes far beyond anything you could hope too imagine. Things you believe are illusions are so, just because you say so; while things you believe are real are so, just because you say so. Your reasoning is simply quite absurd. It isn't reasoning.
@VeggieTrunks We don't all stretch it out to every human, look at the tribal violence that is inherent in our nature. War after war, slaughter after slaughter of people that aren't like us. The more and more we learn about what it means to be a homo sapien, the fewer differences we see in each other. Only education and science has really taught us how alike we are. Look at the old testament, it teaches how to destroy and enslave other tribes. (Other packs of Lions)
its funny how people on youtube can mock lennox when he is a professor at Oxford and his IQ is likely triple that of their own. He also has a triple doc. I would love to see a youtube poser debate lennox or william lane craig and see how they get destroyed. William lane craig has destroyed Hitchens, Atkins(humilated atkins), Zindler. He has debated all the intellectual heavyweights from physicists to philosophers and hands down destroyed them all. And Dawkins refuses to debate him. Wonder why?
william lane craig just uses the faults in logic to make a case for god. its incredibly silly type of argument. i think its called begging th question. he is full of logical fallacies.
i dont see how they destroyed anyone. you seem to just want to believe they have good arguments, because you dont want to not believe in god.
William Lane Craig has got to be the Golden Age's greatest Christian philosopher honestly. I have so much of his work and it is just in a different level of scholarship in comparison to contemporary Atheistic writings produced by Hitchens and Dawkins.
I love how William Lane Craig refutes Atkins argument after he had stated that science was omniscient.
listen to those dumb atheists clapping like idiots
Seigu007 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Seigu007 Man can engineer molecules! It shows how it takes INTELLIGENCE in controlled laboratory conditions to mimic, manipulate, plagiarize a cell's Design! Scientists COPY genetic sequences!! They dont create anything!!
Its all Man made Synthetic chemistry! and it has nothing to do with the origin of life!! Homochirality is a disaster for any sort of naturalistic origins! There is no demonstrated source for such non-racemic mixture of sugars in any plausible pre-biotic environment!
5tonyvvvv 1 week ago
J: "God must exist because we are moral"
S: "Morality is evolved as a side-effect of the social nature of our species"
J: "That is exactly what you expect when Christianity were true, we are evolved to be moral"
And J is mathematician? In a drugstore perhaps.
Utoxin 2 months ago
lennox is such a troll
EisEisBaby 2 months ago
This video gives me hope... and is a testament of human nurturing. we are evolved to be this and cannot change it . We are not religious we a re thoughtful.
wondergundy 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
DONT READ THIS CAUSE IT ACTUALLY WORKS. YOU WILL GET KISSED ON THE NEAREST POSSIBLE FRI. BY THE LOVE OF YOUR LIFE. TOMMOROW WILL BE TH EBEST DAY OF YOUR LIFE HOWEVER IF YOU DON'T POST THIS COMMENT TO THREE VIDEOS YOU WILL DIE WITHIN TWO DAYS. NO, YOU'VE ALREADY STARTED READING SO DON'T STOP. THIS IS SCARY. PUT THIS ON FIVE VIDEOS IN THE NEXT 143 MINUTES. WHEN YOUR DONE PRESS F6 AND YOUR LOVERS NAME WILL APPEAR ON THE SCREEN IN BIG LETTERS.THIS IS SCARY CAUSE IT happens
Dkilby95 4 months ago
When people were dying in Nazi camps, where was God? Was she wondering what to do ? Did she have her period ? If theres a God shes an big time asshole.
Hektor7788 4 months ago
@Hektor7788 God was where he always was ..The Nazis killed them , should god intervene with their choice to kill ? In that case , should God intervene in any killing ..( by that reasoning God should kill every abortion doctor and nurse right now ) ..and what about lesser sins ..If God intervened , every human on this earth would be dead ..because we deserve it ..including you .
Recordbhoy 4 months ago
@Recordbhoy So whats the point of praying if God wont do shit ? Does he know whats going on down here ??
Hektor7788 4 months ago
@Hektor7788 Of course he does ..maybe if you stopped committing sin every day God would intervene . Stop slating God for letting men have their choice ..You want God to intervene , yet you never give him a thought day in day out , all you life ..yes when evil abounds you bleat " where is God " ...Try and grasp the magnitude of your hypocrisy
Recordbhoy 4 months ago
@Recordbhoy I'm a sinner, i cant stop it. Can God stop it ? Tell him to send me an email and i'll try to stop.
Hektor7788 4 months ago
@Hektor7788 You forgot to add you're an arsehole too
Recordbhoy 4 months ago
Debates like this are the death rattle of religion. Education will finish it off.
wondergundy 5 months ago
@wondergundy Debates like this bring souls back to God ..
Recordbhoy 4 months ago
@Recordbhoy Had he typed just one line, we could be sure but....
wondergundy 4 months ago
@Recordbhoy I so wish!
wondergundy 4 months ago
Lennox owned this silly atheist. Shermer got slutted.
Seigu007 5 months ago
Auschwitz???!!!
Auschwitz???!!!
Let's just ignore the question and go with an emotional response....
Lennox is just not good at this... he still thinks that emotional preaching can substitute for an argument.
Roper122 6 months ago
@Roper122 He did, the Question was "why should there be justice and hope?"--He say's "Every human heart has a moral sense", then he brings up the moral tragedy at Auschwitz!!! .....You atheist need to keep up. And he was answering a question, it doesn't need be in a form of an argument.
SylvanSage 6 months ago
@SylvanSage .... No, actually what he did was a debating trick.
He tried to turn the entire question in to an emotional response... so the first thing he did was mention something horrible.
The question was " Why should there be justice? "...
The fact that people think Auschitz was bad, is not an answer, and has no relevance...
Even if his " moral sense " is true ( which it's not ) it's still not an answer.
Not only am I keeping up.. I'm actually way ahead of you.
Roper122 6 months ago
@Roper122 I agree with you that Lennox did beat around the bush on that question.
But the question she asked is circumstantial. If she had just been robbed before attending this debate, do you think she would ask "why should there be justice?" No, not at all.
KobiHoover 5 months ago
@KobiHoover " I agree with you that Lennox did beat around the bush on that question."
- He always does
" If she had just been robbed before attending this debate, do you think she would ask "why should there be justice?" No, not at all."
- No.. she would want justice... but the question " why should there be justice ? " remains exactly the same.
Lennox has no answer... so he tries to make people feel emotional and hopes they don't notice.
Roper122 5 months ago
Lennox: "People disagree with the philosophy of the Nazis, therefore the Abrahamic god created morality." "The number and qualities of the people who believe in god have no bearing on whether it is true. But this is evidence of whether it is true or not."
iamheasyouaremeandwe 6 months ago 3
This has been flagged as spam show
@iamheaseandwe Man can engineer molecules! It shows how it takes INTELLIGENCE in controlled laboratory conditions to mimic, manipulate, plagiarize a cell's Design! Scientists COPY genetic sequences!! They dont create anything!!
Its all Man made Synthetic chemistry! and it has nothing to do with the origin of life!! Homochirality is a disaster for any sort of naturalistic origins! There is no demonstrated source for such non-racemic mixture of sugars in any plausible pre-biotic environment!
5tonyvvvv 1 week ago
I've rarely seen such a shameless display of fallacious argument than the haughty drivel that Lennox spewed out here. Summary of his points: "I am not personally satisfied with the current scientific explanation of morality, therefore GODDIDIT. Both atheists and theists can be moral, but christians have done certain great moral acts in history, therefore this is evidence of god's existence, if atheists do the same thing, this is evidence that god gave them a moral sense."
iamheasyouaremeandwe 6 months ago
Something I'm curious about. Say there are a group of Chimpanzees, say 2 male and 2 female. They end up having lil chimpettes. One day a group of male chimpanzees turn up and seeing as they're so far from any phones or police stations they kill the 2 fathers and the children. They then rape the females so they can pass on their genes, the thing that motivates every living thing on the planet.
It makes me wonder, do they deserve "justice"? They WILL greive. Or do they not count? They too furry?
riggermortisify 7 months ago
..bare in mind if a Human child is born outside of our civilization it will behave in the way that it's surrounding guardians behave. Essentially feral children clearly become what we are, animals, just untaught. Does the child count as a person? If they commit a crime or kill do they deserve hell?
This is what Atheists mean when they say Atheism is nothing. If people were brought up isolated from religion NONE of them would come up with the idea of a god. Especially not in the messianic sense.
riggermortisify 7 months ago
Yes I would love a cookie. Evidence for what? I'm an atheist because there's a distinct lack of evidence for the existence of God. Same as you don't believe (I assume) in the existence of Thor. Because there's a lack of evidence. Or do you have evidence that Thor doesn't exist?
MrBellybell 7 months ago
What are these God-haters so happy about? Do they want a cookie?
Seigu007 7 months ago
@Seigu007 Another example of when the given arguments are refuted resort to put downs and attempts to diminish character. The people on Lennox's side where cheering for him when he made good points. As usual, hypocrisy, judgement and blind one wayed analysis. America starts a war, well, Bush called it a crusade, against the East. When they fight back they're branded as evil. These all have something in common; an agenda. When it's denied, slowed down or invalid then the opposition are evil.
riggermortisify 7 months ago
John Lennox: "I listen to evidence, I listen to evidence! .........But I'll ignore that bit of evidence."
MrBellybell 7 months ago
@MrBellybell What evidence do you have, God hater? Its good to see you've strapped yourself in the losers seatbelt.
Seigu007 7 months ago
If you were to look up "circular reasoning" you'd get a picture of John Lennox as definition.
Slackster75 7 months ago
Lennox demonstrates, yet again, his complete inability to answer a question. He atarts answering one he has made up himself. The girls said "why should there be justice?". He just preaches agian and again.
sids500 8 months ago
Shermer is nothing compared to hitch
persarian1 8 months ago
We did get "civil laws" from Christianity "originally anyway"? As far as I know, we (in the "West") got them from a mixture of Roman and Germanic influences..(somewhat different traditions..) - which varies a bit depending on the country you focus on. And in the non-Christian world law codes also existed and exist..
Nalae1978 9 months ago
By the way Lennox,
the Nazi empire was rooted in good Christian faith.
So I'm pretty sure the problem isn't that "we've forgotten God."
And nice come back by Sherman, who threw that bs slavery comment back in his face.
mrbenderson005 9 months ago
If its one thing I as a Christian agree with atheists on, its that the Christian churches in America seem hell bent on creating a theocracy, while claiming they want to preserve American values of freedom and equality. I think it is obvious that Christianity was never meant to be in a place of power in government, because whenever it is both the government and Christianity is corrupted.
philosophizer149 10 months ago 6
This has been flagged as spam show
@philosophr149 Man can engineer molecules! It shows how it takes INTELLIGENCE in controlled laboratory conditions to mimic, manipulate, plagiarize a cell's Design! Scientists COPY genetic sequences!! They dont create anything!!
Its all Man made Synthetic chemistry! and it has nothing to do with the origin of life!! Homochirality is a disaster for any sort of naturalistic origins! There is no demonstrated source for such non-racemic mixture of sugars in any plausible pre-biotic environment!
5tonyvvvv 1 week ago
@philosophizer149 in the OT, it is said that a leader who is for God is a blessing, while one who refuses to follow God is a curse. Godly values are of great importance, and in the OT had eternal significance for the people who are ruled by that leader. A king is the spiritual leader of his people, and an ungodly one can "lead his people into sin."
We have free will as always, but God does not call for His standards to remain independent of worldly government.
peachtable966 1 week ago
I find it impossible to believe a moral sense can come out of anything other then a creator. Think about it.
dubyabee5 10 months ago
@dubyabee5 "I find it impossible to believe a moral sense can come out of anything other then a creator. Think about it."
You need to think harder. Notice how morals "evolve" throughout the ages... Your concept of "morals" can be explained by non-moral factors. Put simply, our social instincts developed from our survival instincts, and that in turn led to social rules and the concept of law, etc. Solidarity is innate in almost all mammalian species, so don't draw that up to god.
DamLazyFuk 10 months ago
@dubyabee5 I think Shermer described it perfectly. You don't see physicists picketing outside of churches demanding equal time for science, so don't picket outside our schools demanding equal time for your propaganda.
DamLazyFuk 10 months ago
Why is anyone applauding this Lennox clownshoe?
sidewinderxx 10 months ago
Lennox needs to read some sociology and ethology books.
DaGavinX 11 months ago
Lennox, keeps strawman-ing every time he says "new atheism".
DaGavinX 11 months ago
Atheism doesn't have to have a basis for morality. Atheism is just the lack of belief in gods. Moral and immoral behavior evolved within us naturally. Religion merely formally codified morality. It didn't invent it, nor did any gods.
Nightscream72 11 months ago
@Nightscream72 so can you objectively define our current "evolved" morality vs. a previous "evolved" morality? Or are you speaking of morali(ties) in the sense that one society loves their enemies, while another eats them.? In other words, are you honestly saying if a few thousand years from now molesting a child is found to be common place, then it is completely acceptable on the basis morality is merely a subjective ideal?
jadkins00 10 months ago
@jadkins00 I don't know what you mean by "current" or "previous" morality, since these terms imply discrete, finite points along a continuity. I never referenced "societies" or any particular sociological issue like child molestation. What I said is that moral behavior is a behavior that evolved within us, as it originates in the brain. It evolved due to selective pressures because it these behaviors generally helped as survive as individuals and a group.
Nightscream72 10 months ago
@Nightscream72 yes but like John said, if its evolution, then why do we take care of sick and incapable people? if based on natural selection, then these animals no longer deserves to be alive and should die because they will have no good impact on the gene pool.
xcode394 8 months ago
@xcode394 We take care of sick people because the empathy which drives us to do so is a behavior that evolved within us. Natural selection does *not* necessarily lead to organisms that stand by while sick members of their community die. With reptiles it does, but with mammals, it does not, because mammals need longer time spans to raise their young, so natural selection favored us because behaviors such as this are an adaptive advantage. Without this, we would not have survived as a species.
Nightscream72 8 months ago
"Aushwitz" argument should exclude Lennox from any serious debate leauge. Red card for him immediately.
nonseans 11 months ago
Shermer and other atheist i noticed when they talk about Christians, they are referring to people, but not what Christianity actually IS. They are novices when it comes to biblical theology.
Creationcreed 11 months ago
@Creationcreed Your point being? This debate is about whether or not there is a god. Indeed I'm a novice on biblical theology and I have no intention changing that. I'm also a novice on the Quran, the Thora, Scientology, etc. Should I spend a lifetime studying dogmatic books in order to be allowed to have an opinion about believing in a god?
Rosetree6 11 months ago
@Rosetree6 That depends on whether or not one or more of the books is actually a study of "dogmatic" systems? What if one contains objective truth? If I were to draw a circle representing all of the knowledge in the universe and then asked you to shade in the amount you believe you currently possess, would you not honestly leave the majority unshaded? Now, what if sufficient evidences of God exists within the unshaded? Without honest evaluation, are you not being unfair to your "rational?"
jadkins00 10 months ago
@jadkins00 Not at all! My honest, rational, evaluation is that there's no evidence whatsoever for God's existence. If at any point in time proper scientific evidence is presented (something I would find in Science magazine, Nature, etc.) I would accept it. If any of the books I mentioned contains objective truth, why then are there thousands of different interpretations for each of them? How objective then are you?
Rosetree6 10 months ago
where is the video where John actually answers the question?
cunuttb 11 months ago
where is the video where John actually answers the question?
cunuttb 11 months ago
That guy answered her question perfectly. So we don't have anarchy. Simple enough.
luvlatinmamis 1 year ago
@luvlatinmamis no he didn't. That's like saying the reason gravity exists is because without it ,matter would scatter everywhere. Or because you can prove that unicorns exist because without them, little girls couldn't ride them over rainbows.
A potential consequence is not a proof for the existence of something.
sidewinderxx 10 months ago
@sidewinderxx Good point, but the inverse applies as well. It's is as the saying goes "Absence of evidence isn't the... " :)
luvlatinmamis 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@luvlatinmamis no he didn't. That's like saying the reason gravity exists is because without it ,matter would scatter everywhere. Or that you can prove that unicorns exist because without them, little girls couldn't ride them over rainbows.
A potential consequence is not a proof for the existence of something.
sidewinderxx 10 months ago
Lennox is an elegant idiot.
TysicJC 1 year ago
Lennox is one of those people for whom the phrase "bullshit artist" was invented.
BlizBob 1 year ago
It took one person to convince others of abolition. Yet that person was a christian and corresponds with the christian teaches thus Christianity was the driving force behind abolition, it certainly wasn't secularism or atheism.
nazra7 1 year ago
I was under the impresions hospitals predate Chrisitanity. The word is greek. So is the hypocratic oath. So is the symbol of medicine. It is the symbol of Mercury, a God no one belives in, rather ironicly.
Nexius8 1 year ago
@Nexius8 "The word is greek. So is the hypocratic oath."
there were many greek christians. I'm sorry what was your point?
nazra7 1 year ago
@nazra7 Yes there are many greek christians. But not back when Zeus and Mercury were worshiped and the school of medicine was first made.
Nexius8 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Nexius8 "and the school of medicine was first made."
You see I find this assertion particularly interesting because A, a school of medicine is not a hospital and B, Ancient Greece clearly did not have the first school of medicine.
nazra7 1 year ago
...way to appeal to emotion. Lennox has done better.
stephenexmachina 1 year ago
I can't believe Lennox said that secularists were pro slavery. "What god said in the old testament and reaffirmed in the New testament can not be a sin" was said in defense of slavery in the south until the very end. Now of course they claim Christianity was against slavery all along, just like when the mormons got a "revelation" that it was ok for black to be clergymen in their church just in time for the civil rights movement. One does not know whether to laugh or cry at this evil stupidity.
kaifroland 1 year ago
2:28-2:35
I don't want to start a debate here but I would like to point out that simply CALLING ONSELF A CHRISTIAN, DOES NOT A CHRISTIAN MAKE.
mickdukes 1 year ago
@mickdukes Actually, it basically does. Look up the "no true scotsman fallacy".
kaifroland 1 year ago
@kaifroland With respect, I take issue with that. In order to call oneself a CHRISTian, one has to BEHAVE like one, following the commandments of CHRIST, such as "Love your neighbor as yourself" or "He who lives by the sword dies by it." Anyone can justify themselves by claiming their god-figure told them to do so, but if the majority of my actions contradict or go against the teachings of my Savior (say I'm a serial killer or rapist), then Jesus CANNOT be my Savior and I CANNOT be a Christian.
mickdukes 1 year ago
@mickdukes I'm gonna agree with you, I totally overstated my point. I was thinking of the kind of thing that went on in the Pentecostal church I used to go to, where the pastor would say, from the pulpit, that mormons weren't true christians, catholics weren't true christians (in fact they were polytheists whose leader, the pope, was satanic etc.) I see a lot of sects saying that others aren't "true christians" while using various bible verses to back such claims up. This is what I had in mind.
kaifroland 1 year ago
@kaifroland Glad you responded in a civil way. So before we take it any further or uglier, I make my exit!
mickdukes 1 year ago
0:14
What a STUPID question.
mickdukes 1 year ago
I don't see why Christian morality isn't relative either, it must depend surely on your interpretation of the Bible. For example thou shalt not kill. That might be broken by a christian during war or self defence without being considered immoral by many. Wouldn't this make the Bible's morality relative.?
Wiselady16 1 year ago
Hilarious that people moaned after Lennox said Auschwitz...as if war and torture and cruelty have no place in a discussion on morals. Sorry to get so off topic.
godswordsheal 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Atheists do not believe morality is an illusion. More distortion! And Lennox is not very familiar with world religions - he thinks all good only comes from Christianity. This is obscene nonsense. And it was religion that started slavery and slavery is justified in the Bible. More distortions.
equsnarnd 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Atheists do not believe morality is an illusion. More distortion! And Lennox is not very familiar with world religions - he thinks all good only comes from Christianity. This is obscene nonsense. And it was religion that started slavery and slavery is justified in the Bible. More distortions.
equsnarnd 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Atheists do not believe morality is an illusion. More distortion! And Lennox is not very familiar with world religions - he thinks all good only comes from Christianity. This is obscene nonsense. And it was religion that started slavery and slavery is justified in the Bible. More distortions.
equsnarnd 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Atheists do not believe morality is an illusion. More distortion! And Lennox is not very familiar with world religions - he thinks all good only comes from Christianity. This is obscene nonsense. And it was religion that started slavery and slavery is justified in the Bible. More distortions.
equsnarnd 1 year ago
Comment removed
equsnarnd 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Atheists do not belief morality is an illusion. More distortion! And Lennox is not very familiar with world religions - he thinks all good only comes from Christianity. This is obscene nonsense. And it was religion that started slavery and slavery is justified in the Bible. More distortions.
equsnarnd 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Atheists do not belief morality is an illusion. More distortion! And Lennox is not very familiar with world religions - he thinks all good only comes from Christianity. This is obscene nonsense. And it was religion that started slavery and slavery is justified in the Bible. More distortions.
equsnarnd 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Atheists do not belief morality is an illusion. More distortion! And Lennox is not very familiar with world religions - he thinks all good only comes from Christianity. This is obscene nonsense. And it was religion that started slavery and slavery is justified in the Bible. More distortions.
equsnarnd 1 year ago
Comment removed
equsnarnd 1 year ago
idiots... u guys just fail to see the intelligence in him in lennox, take ur bias aside and actually listen, his points are so understandable... ignorant fools dont talk to me when u actually wanna talk seriously... thank u... god bless u =)
samuellis 1 year ago
lennox make a great inquisitor.
jojoinhere 1 year ago
Can Lennox really be a professor of mathematics? I am a high school student with an F in math, and even I find number of fallacies he has committed astonishing.
AndrahilAdrian 1 year ago
nice point at 0:52
he admit´s that he has his moral from a moral inner sense not from god.
This guy is such a moron. It hurts to listen to him.
reafdaw01 1 year ago
Gott mit uns belt buckles? Really? It would be highly ignorant of history to claim that this indicated they were 'christian'.
findo 1 year ago
Lennox, listen carefully. Humans share a great deal of morality because we are all human. Christians not only posit that we are all human, they also add one particular god is responsible for it. It is evidence to differentiate the two that is required, or Occam's razor removes your god.
askegg 1 year ago
@askegg That's no answer at all, unless you're happy enough not to have anybody else follow anything you might think is moral.
findo 1 year ago
@findo Yet, somehow, proposing a transcendent being answers all the questions perfectly.
I have given you the challenge - meet it.
askegg 1 year ago
@askegg I see no non-fallacious challenge presented.
findo 1 year ago
@findo Sometimes I wonder why I bother with you.
askegg 1 year ago
Comment removed
findo 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@askegg Well stop bothering with me and spend the time figuring out how to get around the is-ought problem. Maybe then you'll see why your so-called challenge, as it stands, is a false dichotomy.
In any case, Lennox points out (I think later) that Shermer's argument which you're repeating, simply doesn't deal with real altruism.
findo 1 year ago
6:15 and afterwards: 'this is exactly what you would expect if Christianity were true' WOW I didn't know there was anyone this ignorant in the World. This man is half-retarded.
Richy15251 1 year ago
Atheism is obvious..and racional.
Research: The Venus Project
FranciscoKGuerreiro 1 year ago
If all human beings have an inherent sense of morality like Lennox says, then there's no reason to believe it has to come from God. Christians are just trying to take credit for their religion which it doesn't deserve.
gupsphoo 1 year ago
primates have morals - and they dont believe in god = religion has nothing to do with morals.
alive555 1 year ago
@alive555 a) how do you know they don't? and b) the idea that belief in god is required was explicitly rejected by Lennox. The point is how one philosophically justifies objective morality without a God.
findo 1 year ago
I can't even stand listening to John anymore. His redundant nonsense is making my ears bleed.
Exofluke 1 year ago 20
This has been flagged as spam show
@Exofluke you bloody idiot
iMikeyLoveJesus 1 year ago
@Exofluke agree, he's just a fucking simpleton. If this is the best that Christian apologists can drum up, why is there even a debate?
It frustrates me no end that such stupidity is even entertained to this extent. That even 1 person could applaud him makes me ashamed to be human.
Thank god for Shermer
sidewinderxx 10 months ago
@Exofluke I find it amusing how agitated anti-Christians are. Why does it piss you off so much? What does trying to prove it wrong accomplish. The idea that the idea of Christianity angering people just backs up Biblical teachings.
dubyabee5 10 months ago
@dubyabee5 Well, I could make the argument that Christians are more concerned about forcing their beliefs on others than atheists. Most atheists, I think, don't mind religion at all, as long as the religious keep it to themselves. Trying to force creationism in school, waging wars based on so called "Christian values," corrupting politics under its guise, etc. - it's all just downright sinister.
DamLazyFuk 10 months ago
@Exofluke So don't listen to him, and stop babbling about his incompetence without explaining how he is incompetent, because by making blind accusations and complaints, all you are speaking is nonsense.
philosophizer149 10 months ago
@Exofluke That's a pretty strong statement. What, exactly, was redundant about his argument?
aantoine1 8 months ago
@Exofluke i love how you back up that claim with arguments
Redfield92 8 months ago
@Exofluke You fucking God-haters deserve to be lined up and shot. That would be better.
Seigu007 7 months ago
@Exofluke Or, maybe it is above your knowledge level
mrcolbusmaximus 6 months ago
@Exofluke says the sore loser. Pathetic God-haters like you derseve to be destroyed.
Seigu007 5 months ago
Shermer's selfish gene programmed him to be an atheist. It's not his fault his genes are stupid :-/
shernajwine 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
lennox is a moron
lmhjs1000 1 year ago 10
Sorry ya'll! I give up! I can't watch it anymore! All the theist is doing to taking every point that is actually made and saying taht it belongs to Christianity. He said taht God gave moral to Christians and then je said taht all religions had morals and that they get it from a common pool of morality. He even contradicts himself.... This is a waste of time to anyone that can think for themselves!
gary031183 1 year ago
@gary031183 And yet, Gary, you are the one who cannot string a sentence together at the end of the day. I, the theist, at least know proper grammar and spelling. Talk to me when you learn English my friend.
Eragon1880 1 year ago
@Eragon1880 Yep! There were many typos in that comment. I guess I was in a rush. It was a great chance for you ("the theist") to try to take a cheap shot (and you did). Thank you for proving my point for me. Now that I have "learned English", you can now try to refute my original comment. I can't wait to hear from you! lol.
Oh, and I would like something in the form of facts and evidence, please!
gary031183 1 year ago
@gary031183 Okay, first of all my point was just that you were acting all "intelligent" and you couldn't even type English properly. It wasn't a cheap shot, but just an observation that you can't be that intelligent if you can't spell properly (unless you're not American). Now that I see it was typo's, I take that back and apologize. And regarding the morality thing, if you actually saw John Lennox in other debates he says the reason why we are all moral as humans is because we are moral beings
Eragon1880 1 year ago
@Eragon1880 Sorry man. Nothing you wrote came in the form of facts or evidence. You don't seem to be on the attack as you were before? Why? I can take it! I'm not easily offended.
Please provide the proof now that your position can be supported with. (We won't be holding our breath)
Make sure you also post your comment to "baldurus1" who you also attacked without proof.
gary031183 1 year ago
@gary031183 As a response to your first point I'll say that I was trying to be on the offensive but YouTube gives you a limited amount of space to comment. You also seem to seek evidence for every little thing but oyu are not willing to apply a mixture of possible evidence, rationality, and logic to come to a conclusion.
In the end of the day it was ruled that O.J Simpson did not kill his wife. Now, although the evidence was against it, is it so far fetched as to say he was guilty?
Eragon1880 1 year ago
@Eragon1880 RESP #1 You are just messing with me aren't you? lol
1st, about the OJ thing: OJ did have evidence against him but there is a legal/criminal process involved and since the evidence couldn't be trusted due to evidence tamptering by the police, he got off. NOT BECAUSE OF LACK OF EVIDENCE!!!!! This might be the problem.... You believers seem to see everything through rose tinted glasses. Try to ask the questions that a non-believer would ask before you jump on the bandwagon please.
gary031183 1 year ago
@gary031183 Response#2 - Now, you seek so called "evidence". There is plenty of evidence, although it isn't clear cut and you can decide for yourself whether to trust that particular evidence or not. Firstly, there were many people who've seen Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad do miracles. Now, if you say that not one of them was telling the truth (all the followers of these religions) then that's pretty close minded. Also, like I said before, how can you think rationally if you evolved irrationally?
Eragon1880 1 year ago
@Eragon1880 "There is plenty of evidence, although it isn't clear cut..."
Here is the definition of evidence: "To indicate clearly; exemplify or prove."
For it to even be counted as evidence, it HAS to be "clear cut".
"Jesus, Muhammed, and Moses did do miracles" Oh goodness! Either you are insane or you are Muslim, that is the only way you could pt those three characters together and believe both jesus and muhammed did miracles.
If yoare muslim, Islam has already been disproven.
gary031183 1 year ago
What a stupid thing to say that we need god to be good - when the god is an ogre!
dbes02 1 year ago
at 8:00 Mr Lennox fumbled the ball ... (oops)
SamonMarquis 1 year ago
What John is saying @ around 6:00 also applies to all kinds of social animals yet they're not Christian at all...they don't even have a concept of God. What a weak argument he makes. There's a video on youtube showing a dog going after another dog on a highway that was hit and injured. Why did the dog do that? God? Please.
oneznzeroz 1 year ago
6:10 "that is what exactly you expect if Christianity is true" i have seen leaps of logic but this takes the jackpot
Demetriostube 1 year ago
The Jews in Auschwitch were killed in the name of god, so where was the morality in that?
baldurus1 1 year ago
@baldurus1 I agree that those were immoral acts, which more likely stemmed not from the teachings of God, but the perverted use of religion for political expediency and to justify heinous crimes.
Onlyobserving14 1 year ago
@baldurus1 Wow, utter ignorance at it's greatest! Jews were NOT killed in the name of God, but rather for political reasons. I hate when people confuse natural cruelty and politics with religion. Jesus was a Jew and he never taught to kill them. And I'm a Jew, btw. And can you tell me where in the NT it says to kill Jews? Personally, I think Germany/Austria as a nationality is anti-Semitic, but not Christians in general. They are by far one of the nicest people I've ever seen.
Eragon1880 1 year ago
@Eragon1880 Wow, backup. Where did i ever mention the bible or the NT??? I was addressing the claim that "without religion there can be no morality". And my point is that religion can be a dangerous tool in the wrong hands. "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." A. Hitler
And all statistics show Atheists being more law abiding then theists.
baldurus1 1 year ago
Millions of people get killed because they forgot god? Riiiiiight... Lennox finally jumped off the deep end. I admirer Shermer's patience with this clown.
Also, the people torturing other people in Auschwitz were Christians. Each and every one of them.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 year ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "ALL the people torturing other people in Auschwitz were Christians. Each and every one of them." Wow...that's a sweeping categorical statement (I'm not sure that's the case). Also, I don't remember Jesus teaching this kind of behavior. Is it your position that CHRIST taught this kind of behavior?
Onlyobserving14 1 year ago
@Onlyobserving14
"Wow...that's a sweeping categorical statement"
They all belonged to churches that condoned the prosecution of Jews.
"Also, I don't remember Jesus teaching this kind of behavior."
I don't regard a guy who cursed whole cities simply because they did not care for his preaching as a proper source of morals.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 year ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer Oh, I see your logic...Jesus who came to His own (the Jews) taught that the Jews should be killed in concentration camps. That's difficult to buy! Sounds more like a case of religion being perverted and abused for political power. Again, your statement is sweeping, as well as misguided. And by the way, your source of morality stems from where?
Onlyobserving14 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@MomoTheBellyDancer
"Jesus who came to His own (the Jews) taught that the Jews should be killed in concentration camps"
No, but he cursed the towns that didn't care for his preaching. He also said that people who don't believe in him will go to hell. I have much higher moral standards than that.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 year ago
Comment removed
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 year ago
He dodged that question completely.
He hopes there is justice after death because it depresses him to think otherwise. That's nothing but wishful thinking.
Springheel01 1 year ago
For the woman who asked that question, I would've responded by asking, "So, you 'hope' to hear a 'just' answer from me?"
IntrepidJss 1 year ago
Apparently it was the Quakers that had a large interest in slavery, as it was their ships sailing from Bristol (a major white slave trade port) to America selling the slaves.
huntmatuk 1 year ago
Lennox is a true fool, - well that is exactly what you would expect if there was a god so you would expect them to have a moral pool fuck off lennox you wanker lets have cake and lets eat it too fucking tool
HadesKali 1 year ago
Again Lennox makes no sense, doing well Lennox
HadesKali 1 year ago
"Why do you care that there be morality in the world?"
This is actually a good question to ask theists. If they answer as Lennox did that the world would be a terrible place without morality, then what they've just done is give a SECULAR reason for morality! So why the need for a God?
sam51092 1 year ago
Richard Dawkins has explained his beliefs on the origins of morality explicitly. Lennox is hoodwinking the audience by making them think that Dawkins is hypocritical on this point. Great response by Shermer.
chuckinator0 1 year ago
My "basic grounds" of morality doesn't come from your imaginary friend Lennox. You are a fraud. No atheist I know ever proclaimed morality is an illusion. The caricature of absolute authoritarian morality, is an illusion (or actually, more like a delusion), as it is only predicated on the assumption of a supernatural fantasy dictator. Dangerous stuff, given your imaginary dictator, is not the only one possible, & you have already washed your hands of evil perpetrated in the name of your God.
skepticoz 1 year ago
@skepticoz
Lennox point was not that athiests have no morality. He says that all people regardless have an inbuilt moral compass. His point was that athiesm has no real "grounds" for morallty. ie morality for the materialist can only be a relative thing..What might be good for the "selfish gene" this year, might be different next..
rcbodle 1 year ago 12
@rcbodle
OK, then morality is innate. So why does anybody bother to mention it in the context of religious debate? Do you suppose Lennox has no intention of at least implying that because atheism has no grounds for morality we might like to stick a bit of goddidit in the moral vacuum left by atheism. He might just as well mention that atoothfairyism (absence of belief in the toothfairy) has no grounds for morality. Neither convictions or lack of (read conclusions) are grounds for anything.
skepticoz 1 year ago
I dont think Lennox is relying on the "moral argument" to prove in the existance of God. But I think this argument makes more sense of our reality/who we are, and points to the existance of a holy and just being/creator God.
rcbodle 1 year ago
"I dont think Lennox is relying on the "moral argument" to prove in the existance of God."
Oh! Really? You seemed to let the question about why such a theist would bother to mention morality at all slip by you. Why DOES he mention it then?
skepticoz 1 year ago
Comment removed
rcbodle 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@skepticoz ...well he uses the "moral" argument because it is one that "points" to the existance of God, (others arguments sometimes employed by theists are the ontological, cosmological, teleological & Historical/ethnolgoical)...but I reckon all these are just testimony or pointers..not really arguments or proofs that would compel someone to believe beyond doubt.
rcbodle 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"...But I think this argument..." Er... What argument... The one you say Lennox isn't trying to make?
"...makes more sense of our reality/who we are, and points to the existence of a holy and just being/creator God. "
So you're going to try it on instead huh?
skepticoz 1 year ago
Lennox is a charlatan. Devoid of an intellectual answer, he appeals to emotion. Auschwitz and the death of Solzhenitsyn are pathetic attempts to dodge the question.
It's also telling how often Lennox claims to be persuaded by "evidence" yet he offers no evidence himself. This is a tedious technique of distraction - "see I respect evidence therefore I must have heaps of it." Bullllllllshit. He's a fraud.
MohawkMangopit 2 years ago 2
Lennox completely misses the point that other primates demonstrates similar chateristics.
TippyCando 2 years ago
Actually, the fact that primates have similar characteristics actually grants the point that he is making. If God does not exist, we are no different from a bucket of slime. There is no intrinsic worth for us, because the concept of worth would be an illusion. Therefore the idea of giving ourselves worth is in itself an illusion as well, so if God does not exist but we choose to give ourselves worth, we are ultimately living a good life based on a lie.
BassP86 2 years ago
As far as anyone can tell, the other primates do not have a clue about the concept of god. Lennox is arguing that we need god. The other primates seem to do quite well.
" we are ultimately living a good life based on a lie. " Turn this upside down and you've got the real problem.
As an atheist, I may be wrong, but I'm not living a lie. I will continue to live my life based on the best evidence available.
Show me the evidence for your god.
TippyCando 2 years ago
TippyCando, I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not talking living your life based on your belief that there is no evidence for God. I'm talking about the subject of worth and value. If God does not exist, then logically giving ourselves value is an illusion, because after all as you have said, "The other primates seem to do quite well." If God does not exist, we don't need value and worth any more than a rock needs it, because the question of value would be irrelevant.
BassP86 2 years ago
It is certainly true that if all life came to an end on this planet, the universe would not care at all. In that sense, we on thiws planet do not have any intrinsic value. So the question becomes, What does the term "value" mean.
Even if there is a god(the christian one for ease of reference), why would that make us worth anything more. Lennox merely asserts that to be the case.
TippyCando 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@BassP86
"If God does not exist, we are no different from a bucket of slime."
Speak for yourself slimebucket. The concept of self worth IS NOT an illusion failing the existence of your vengeful, petty, barbaric sky pixie. My self worth as an atheist, goes far beyond anything you could hope too imagine. Things you believe are illusions are so, just because you say so; while things you believe are real are so, just because you say so. Your reasoning is simply quite absurd. It isn't reasoning.
skepticoz 1 year ago
i may not believe in god, but Shermer's answers are kinda bummer answers. It seems pretty pessimistic
cheeseUout 2 years ago 2
Many creatures are social like lions, but only within their pack. Why do we stretch it out to every human being? Makes no sense.
VeggieTrunks 2 years ago 3
@VeggieTrunks We don't all stretch it out to every human, look at the tribal violence that is inherent in our nature. War after war, slaughter after slaughter of people that aren't like us. The more and more we learn about what it means to be a homo sapien, the fewer differences we see in each other. Only education and science has really taught us how alike we are. Look at the old testament, it teaches how to destroy and enslave other tribes. (Other packs of Lions)
AlvernoPresents 1 year ago
its funny how people on youtube can mock lennox when he is a professor at Oxford and his IQ is likely triple that of their own. He also has a triple doc. I would love to see a youtube poser debate lennox or william lane craig and see how they get destroyed. William lane craig has destroyed Hitchens, Atkins(humilated atkins), Zindler. He has debated all the intellectual heavyweights from physicists to philosophers and hands down destroyed them all. And Dawkins refuses to debate him. Wonder why?
Mulleteer27 2 years ago
william lane craig just uses the faults in logic to make a case for god. its incredibly silly type of argument. i think its called begging th question. he is full of logical fallacies.
i dont see how they destroyed anyone. you seem to just want to believe they have good arguments, because you dont want to not believe in god.
thesparitan 2 years ago 3
William Lane Craig has got to be the Golden Age's greatest Christian philosopher honestly. I have so much of his work and it is just in a different level of scholarship in comparison to contemporary Atheistic writings produced by Hitchens and Dawkins.
I love how William Lane Craig refutes Atkins argument after he had stated that science was omniscient.
dimic 2 years ago
I dont care what degree lennox has, he is clearly deluded.
NoSz4 2 years ago