Sparks Fly at Iowa Judicial Retention Forum 10/19/2010

[whiyey]

If a doctor makes a mistake and you die, do you want them to operate on again?

[struveinsky]

The problem is that he misconstrues the Supreme Court decision with the thinking that they are somehow telling him how he should live and how he should think. This is not the case. The decision does, however, ensure that people like VP cannot tell our Gay and Lesbian neighbors how they must live. This preserves individual freedom and responsibility, fosters neighborliness, and fits Iowa's general attitude quite well. Where VP would lament and say "Why Iowa?", I say "WHY NOT?"

[kenballer00]

@struveinsky

nobody's forcing gays to deny their attractions or raiding gay marriages in churches. gays can freely express their feelings of love in a church and get all the benefits that come with marriage through civil unions down the future. however, as soon as you step outside the private realm of RELIGIOUS marriage and enter into the public sphere of CIVIL marriage, you are subject to the law and public opinion or vote because civil marriage is about public policy.

[struveinsky]

Where he said that Iowan's were surprised when the decision came down, he is right. At first glance, the demographics of Iowa do not support gay marriage being allowed here. However, this state has often been at the forefront of civil rights issues, and it is our Midwestern tendency towards neighborliness and an independent "live and let live" mentality that fosters equality here. We are independent and don't like to be told how to live, thus Vander Plaats arguments, I suppose...

[kenballer00]

@struveinsky

Also, they are not similarly situated. The defendants specifically said that heterosexuals have the potential to procreate accidentally and thats why they are given licenses while same sex couples cannot procreate accidentally but the Iowa supreme court practically ignored that in ordered to rule the way that they did. Not to mention the well established social science evidence compared to same sex parent studies showing this to be the best situation for kids being ignored.

[Nonamearisto]

@struveinsky If you define "midwesternliness" as "live and let live", then why do most midwestern (Michigan, Ohio, Nebraska, Kansas, technically Wisconsin, and others with anti-gay marriage laws, like Indiana) states ban gay marriage in their constitutions? I for one see no conflict between barring something like gay marriage and "live and let live" any more than I see a conflict between "live and let live" and barring polygamy.

[struveinsky]

I also think that VP gives Iowan's too little credit. We are a state full of people who are tolerant of and respectful to our neighbors, families, and friends. We reach out to those in need, and we celebrate our successes. In that spirit, we generally believe the best in people and allow citizens of this state to live their lives without interference.

[struveinsky]

I for one am happy that our independent judicial branch in this state had the courage to make this decision, I think knowing that there would be some strong opposition to the rejection of DOMA. However, that is not activism, that is doing their job and making a decision with integrity and without fear that the popular tide might swing against them and cause them to lose their jobs. The integrity of an impartial, independent judiciary is more important and bigger than 3 individuals.

[struveinsky]

.it took the people to determine that slaves were not property. However, he seems to forget that it took NUMEROUS court decisions, often flying in the face of popular opinion which actually brought about equality, integrating schools, and doing away with Jim Crow laws. The Court Decisions, almost without exception, PRECEDE the tide of public opinion.

[struveinsky]

I think that the former supreme court justices along with Marsh Ternus are correct in their fear that the posturing of Vander Plaats will result in the possibility of judges bowing to political and popular pressure when weighing their court decisions. Courts are to be impartial and independent, which sometimes means that decisions that are RIGHT will necessarily be UNPOPULAR. VP uses an example of a court ruling that a slave WAS property in the 1850s, and saying that it took the people

[struveinsky]

When determining whether or not a judge should be retained, it is important to look at the full body of the court's decisions. Vander Plaats is good at fanning the flames of fear and resentment at this one decision, and he KNOWS that very few people will make an informed decision based on the entire body of decisions, instead focusing on this ONE case.

[struveinsky]

Furthermore, Vander Plaats blows the ability of judges to "impose" any number of things according to their whim upon the people. However, he seems to forget that judges do not simply spout out decrees from the bench, they are ACTUALLY hearing CASES, and making decisions based on the evidence presented in those cases. They are bound to the context of ruling on cases brought before the court. This severely limits the power of the courts to make any broad action to "usurp power."

[struveinsky]

There are important issues regarding estates and child custody should one partner die, and care directives should one partner become seriously ill or injured. All of these determinations factored into whether or not gay and lesbian couples were similarly situated. Clearly, nearly all of Vander Plaat's examples utilized in the "slippery slope" argument do NOT meet the standards of being similarly situated. It was NOT simply about....I love my brother, or I love my dog, I'm going to marry him.

[struveinsky]

Additionally, similarly situated also means that they essentially follow the same guidelines generally accepted for traditional marriage, which would mean that these consenting adults would NOT be close relations (6th, 7th cousins maybe, I don't know). They had to have similar household make-ups, some with children, some without. They had the same needs for financial protections, insurance (being under the same coverage as a spouse, etc.), and the same needs for hospital visitation rights...

[struveinsky]

In the Rabble, one MAJOR point Bob Vander Plaats misses in his "slippery slope" argument is that the court needed to determine that gay and lesbian couples were similarly situated to traditional married couples. In order for the rights and privileges granted by civil marriage to be something that was transferable to these couples, they had to be the SAME in their basic structure. Among the determining factors were: They are TWO consenting adults (not 3, not 4, animals cannot consent)...

[struveinsky]

The ONLY freedom you have lost in this issue is the freedom to dictate to gays and lesbians that they cannot have their committed, monogamous relationships recognized. The freedom that has been lost is the ability enabled by Iowa's unconstitutional DOMA law to undermine the freedoms of the lesbian and gay population of Iowa.

[struveinsky]

You're right, Bob Vander Plaats, it IS about freedom. Legislators and the laws they make must follow the constitution. If a law is determined to be unconstitutional based upon evidence presented before the Supreme Court, then it is the LAW that was unjust, it was the LAW that was limiting freedom.  They are NOT taking away your freedom to believe what you want, they are not taking away your freedom to speak out, they are not taking your freedom from removing the judges away.

[paulahare2]

MTN.ORG MINNEAPOLIS,MN. RAINBOW FLAG TV. SHOW Land of the free, Home of the Brave!!!! Not land of the some and those who agree with my religion!!!!!

Author:DanielGrayWorld