Enlighten me. Who are these writers? Well meaning or not, most scholars agree the pieces mentioning jesus as messiah are later insertions, and cannot be used as proof. Find another contemporaneous writer (not later) who mentions him and we can discuss things. Justus of Tiberius, quoted by early church fathers, leaves him out. Okay, he started a group. Lots of people start groups. You can't extrapolate from their that he had any messianic qualities.
Jews who harp on the scant evidence in extrabiblical history of Jesus ignore the fact that most of the events and people in the O.T. (Hebrew scriptures) are not easily attested to by extrabiblical facts either. There is little if any evidence for the existence of Noah, Abraham, Moses, the Exodus, Joshua, Isaac, Jacob,David, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel & on & on. I actually had a young Jewish woman tell me that they do not need to know that anyone in their Bible was real... that is astounding
@apologeticsman First of all, there is a difference between scant and none. They unearthed the walls of the Old City of David both in Jerusalem and in Hebron, though the Arabs in the area will not allow excavations to continue. There is the Tel Dan stone which mentions the House of David and three Egyptian records that mention a slave revolt around 25 years of each other. jesus is mentioned once in Josephus, and it is clearly a later edit.
@uncletomful Jesus is mentioned by several ancient writers, not just Josephus and the "edit" as you call it is a later forgery, probably made by a well meaning Catholic scribe. Even if you take out the part where Josephus supposedly states that Jesus is the Messiah, you still have Jesus existing and starting the church.
@apologeticsman It's not clear jesus started the Church. In the interaction Rabban Gamliel had with Peter and James, it's not clear Rabban Gamliel knew who jesus was. He clearly didn't see the New Jerusalem Church as any kind of threat or anything special. Ultimately, it was Paul who started the Church as we know it now. I have a theory about Jesus. Look up jesus malverde when you have a chance.
@uncletomful Jesus personally appeared to Saul (Paul) and commanded him to be his witness. Paul laid much of the groundwork as one of the first missionaries, but he had a LOT of help. The word church comes from a Greek word that means "those who are called out" i.e. called out as an assembly to be separated in spirit from the evil worldly system. Nothing in the word church implies an organization centered in Jerusalem or anywhere. Church is simply all who trust in Jesus, thus Jesus started it.
The blessings Jacob gives to his sons shows that he clearly views them as righteous.
Jews are numbered as having rebelled 10 times. And if you look at the numbers of people killed in plagues throughout the whole process is a small minority of the Jews. The only one all of the MEN age 20 to 60 held accountable is the sin of the spies. Women and children and many elders also made it.
If Moses is worried they will become corrupt after he dies it means they must have been righteous before.
yes, good point, Jacob was considered righteious. So was abraham for his faith.Genesis 15:6
Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. Show me someone after Moses who was said to be rightious and was exempt from sacrifice? Small minority of Jews killed for rebellion? look again. small remnant survived, even your "oral torah" states that. Yes, Moses was constantly having to bring them back from the golden calf and other acts of rebellion, with out his leadership oyy!
A person can only be righteous in standing. No person was ever or can be righteous in essence based on their own personal goodness or abilities. The Bible is clear that all men, no matter how "righteous" or holy they may seem to be are sinners. Name a single person in the entire Bible that never sinned before God? David, a man after God's own heart was an adulterous murderer, even Daniel confessed his sins, and the sins of Israel before God. There are none who are (truly) righteous, no, not one
@uncletomful I never said that a person is in righteous in standing can not sin, as a matter of fact, that is the point I am making precisely. A person can be righteous in standing, because of the sincerity of their heart and their humility before God, but to be truly righteous, and to be able to be in God's presence in heaven, one must be truly and completely righteous. Only a truly and completely righteous being can procure this for us, hence the Messiah, who we know as Jesus.
solomon never worshiped idols
SAMIRERRE 7 months ago
Enlighten me. Who are these writers? Well meaning or not, most scholars agree the pieces mentioning jesus as messiah are later insertions, and cannot be used as proof. Find another contemporaneous writer (not later) who mentions him and we can discuss things. Justus of Tiberius, quoted by early church fathers, leaves him out. Okay, he started a group. Lots of people start groups. You can't extrapolate from their that he had any messianic qualities.
uncletomful 1 year ago
Jews who harp on the scant evidence in extrabiblical history of Jesus ignore the fact that most of the events and people in the O.T. (Hebrew scriptures) are not easily attested to by extrabiblical facts either. There is little if any evidence for the existence of Noah, Abraham, Moses, the Exodus, Joshua, Isaac, Jacob,David, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel & on & on. I actually had a young Jewish woman tell me that they do not need to know that anyone in their Bible was real... that is astounding
apologeticsman 1 year ago
@apologeticsman First of all, there is a difference between scant and none. They unearthed the walls of the Old City of David both in Jerusalem and in Hebron, though the Arabs in the area will not allow excavations to continue. There is the Tel Dan stone which mentions the House of David and three Egyptian records that mention a slave revolt around 25 years of each other. jesus is mentioned once in Josephus, and it is clearly a later edit.
uncletomful 1 year ago
@uncletomful Jesus is mentioned by several ancient writers, not just Josephus and the "edit" as you call it is a later forgery, probably made by a well meaning Catholic scribe. Even if you take out the part where Josephus supposedly states that Jesus is the Messiah, you still have Jesus existing and starting the church.
apologeticsman 1 year ago
@apologeticsman It's not clear jesus started the Church. In the interaction Rabban Gamliel had with Peter and James, it's not clear Rabban Gamliel knew who jesus was. He clearly didn't see the New Jerusalem Church as any kind of threat or anything special. Ultimately, it was Paul who started the Church as we know it now. I have a theory about Jesus. Look up jesus malverde when you have a chance.
uncletomful 1 year ago
@uncletomful Jesus personally appeared to Saul (Paul) and commanded him to be his witness. Paul laid much of the groundwork as one of the first missionaries, but he had a LOT of help. The word church comes from a Greek word that means "those who are called out" i.e. called out as an assembly to be separated in spirit from the evil worldly system. Nothing in the word church implies an organization centered in Jerusalem or anywhere. Church is simply all who trust in Jesus, thus Jesus started it.
apologeticsman 1 year ago
@apologeticsman also remember James takes a more prominent role than jesus, which makes no sense if jesus is the star.
uncletomful 1 year ago
The blessings Jacob gives to his sons shows that he clearly views them as righteous.
Jews are numbered as having rebelled 10 times. And if you look at the numbers of people killed in plagues throughout the whole process is a small minority of the Jews. The only one all of the MEN age 20 to 60 held accountable is the sin of the spies. Women and children and many elders also made it.
If Moses is worried they will become corrupt after he dies it means they must have been righteous before.
uncletomful 2 years ago
yes, good point, Jacob was considered righteious. So was abraham for his faith.Genesis 15:6
Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. Show me someone after Moses who was said to be rightious and was exempt from sacrifice? Small minority of Jews killed for rebellion? look again. small remnant survived, even your "oral torah" states that. Yes, Moses was constantly having to bring them back from the golden calf and other acts of rebellion, with out his leadership oyy!
RabbinicJudaismHoax 2 years ago 2
A person can only be righteous in standing. No person was ever or can be righteous in essence based on their own personal goodness or abilities. The Bible is clear that all men, no matter how "righteous" or holy they may seem to be are sinners. Name a single person in the entire Bible that never sinned before God? David, a man after God's own heart was an adulterous murderer, even Daniel confessed his sins, and the sins of Israel before God. There are none who are (truly) righteous, no, not one
apologeticsman 1 year ago
@apologeticsman Who says righteous means completely without sin? See Proverbs 24:16. Clearly not a Jewish idea.
uncletomful 1 year ago
@uncletomful I never said that a person is in righteous in standing can not sin, as a matter of fact, that is the point I am making precisely. A person can be righteous in standing, because of the sincerity of their heart and their humility before God, but to be truly righteous, and to be able to be in God's presence in heaven, one must be truly and completely righteous. Only a truly and completely righteous being can procure this for us, hence the Messiah, who we know as Jesus.
apologeticsman 1 year ago