Truth, Veritas, and Pluralism

[mp4401]

i just came across this account

are you erich kofmel?

[randyhelzerman]

No, i'm Randy Helzerman

[brokennarcissist]

Did Rorty suggest we celebrate the differences or celebrate the private sphere where we may develop whichever vocabulary we see fit?

[randyhelzerman]

The way I read him, he recommends we celebrate the differences as well, for example, when he says something like (forgive my aging brain, I have know idea where he says this) that society should pride itself on how tolerant it is, rather than on the firmness with which it excludes strangers. YMMV.

[heyalun]

I love how this video "celebrating" our differences throws in a dig at Christianity at the end.

[randyhelzerman]

???  how did I dig christianity?

[heyalun]

What if I made a video saying we should celebrate our differences and called the basic tenets of humanism or atheism contradictory at the end? Would that be a dig?

[randyhelzerman]

But I spent the whole video celebrating the value of different viewpoints. I think its a GOOD thing that they are contradictory. I don't see how you could tell the story of a divine figure using human language without being contradictory. I would hope that if you were to make a video, and at the end of it you said something that I disagreed with, that I would be able to assume you were writing in a spirit of goodwill. I was.

[heyalun]

Forgive me for assuming that you knew most Christians would find an atheist saying that the word of our God is contradictory offensive.

I recognize that you can say something you know people will disagree with for their own good, but the timing here was odd. It's like me telling my wife I love her and us to be together forever, then immediately saying she's unattractive.

[randyhelzerman]

Forgive me for assuming that most christians actually read their bibles. If you really read the Gospels at al in depth, you would be able to name at least 5 places right off the top of your head where they contradict each other. In fact, that's my challenge to you: find one place where two gospels are flatly contradictory. Here, I'll name a few to get you started: Matthew 21:9 has the fig tree withering immediately, Mark 11:20 has the fig tree not withering until after (cont)

[randyhelzerman]

(cont, to heyalun) Jesus got back from cleansing the temple. How many blind men? Matthew 20:30 has two. Luke 18:35 has one. How many men got demons thrown out of them an into pigs? Matthew 8:28 has two, Mark 5:1-20 has one. Yadda yadda. Saying that there's no contradictions in the stories is like saying you haven't read the gospels at all.

[heyalun]

Mat 21:19 says what happened to the fig tree Mark 11:20 describes what the disciples observed, namely that "the fig tree had ALREADY withered." You misread. If there were two men then there was one man. You're confusing difference with contradiction.

You're equally mistaken on all the rest. I suggest watching an awesome video made by this cool atheist on the principle of charity. Of course then you'd have to treat the Bible as one book and its author as your creator.

[Kierketaard]

heyalun, that is a possible reading since the verse said that "presently" it withered away.

I think more important about Matthew 21:19 is that it showed that Jesus was not, in fact, entirely without sin. He was hungry and the fig tree had no food, so he commanded "Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward forever" and it was so.

Clearly an instance of vengeful spite.

[heyalun]

Kierketaard, Mt 21:19 definitely has more important meaning than a fig tree being cursed and the verses immediately after explain it. It's clearly NOT vengeful spite. It's an object lesson.

It helps to read the surrounding scriptures to get an understanding of what Jesus is doing (or to get an understanding of any verse for that matter).

[Kierketaard]

Well yes, immediately prior to that Christ had driven the traders from the temple - since  they do what Christians do these days, use the sabbath as a way to make money - you know: super churches, the NFL, neo-cons, all that.

But then he came to a fig tree that seemed to mock his anti-capitalist attitude, since it bore no fruit. So he blasted it.

Afterward he responded to questions presented to him by puzzling the questioners. I've been just about that pissed off too many times for my own good.

[heyalun]

Here we agree about nominal Christianity.

This also gets to the deeper meaning of the fig tree. It gave the appearance of having fruit. Jesus spoke of "those from the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews, and yet they are not but are lying" who gave appearance of serving God. (Mat 23:5; Rom 9:6; Rev 3:9)Their fate would be as the fig tree. The same would go for those you mentioned.

"Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire."-Mt 3:10

[randyhelzerman]

LOL heyalun, good one! Yeah dude, virtually every scholar of the New Testament, left wing or right wing, liberal or conservative, agrees with me on this one. But I am a applying the principle of charity here: if there are contradictions there, there has to be a good reason for them to be there.

[heyalun]

I don't need a scholar to teach me basic math and temporal concepts. If I say something happened immediately and someone else says they saw that it already happened when they come along later, to call that a contradiction indicates a severe logical lack.

And scholars have been invalidating God's word for ages. (Mk 7:8) Consensus does not equate to truth. Neither does it change the fact that there are multiple understandings to these texts and you've chosen the contradictory ones.

[randyhelzerman]

lol, yeah, everybody knows that the best indicator of truth isn't whether most of the scholars agrees on it, but whether heyalun agrees on it :-)

[apolloxias]

Mega-props for the Rorty reference.

[randyhelzerman]

:-)

[thatgaybloke]

The idea that we celebrate our diversity is a good one. It is differing points of view that lead to advancement of our species pool of knowledge and creativity. The problem with celebrating diversity arises with religion because it cannot tolerate anyone else who doesn't share its "right answer".

[delerium2k]

Helzerman are you aware of spiral dynamics? its a model for human development (both on the societal and personal level). It presents a progression through world-views and modes of thought that people go through... The wiki article on it explains it nicely... Also, Ken Wilber expands upon these ideas as part of 'integral philosophy' in books like Sex, Ecology, Spirituality (a highly recommended read)

[randyhelzerman]

never hear of spiral dynamics; thanks for the book recommend.

[AmericanAscetic]

Pluralism uses the same logic as Biodiversity within ecosystems. It makes a lot of sense to my mind that that our social reality mirrors or behaves in the same manner as an ecosystem.

[randyhelzerman]

Great metaphor.

[Boucrate]

We are Humans, and what we cannot fix in us we try to fix in others. If we study philosophy, scriptures, sciences books for ourselves, we will learn and understand things. It's only when we try to make others to see like us that we fall in morality punishments and confusion. Basic transfer of our own pain of not being at the image of what we believe we are.. Yea we have to work on ourselves first, to fix what is making us intolerant and not the other way around lol! Muchos gracias mon Ami!

[randyhelzerman]

You rock!

[lhooq21]

Thanks Randy! Good video, well said.

[theowarner]

Well done. I agree utterly.

[InfidelisMax]

Im not happy there are Christians in the world. I used to live in Alabama and my son was constantly teased in school for being an atheist. One of the other kids told his grandpa that my son was an atheist and the boys grandpa said that my son needed to be killed and spend the rest of eternity in Hell. His science teacher told him that she did not care if she gets fired, that he was stupid if he believed evolution happens. We are at war and you are trivializing this!

[FlowCell]

Basicly, you are saying that because Christians hated you, you are going to hate them back.

Yep, that sounds like a real solution.

[InfidelisMax]

No, I'm here to tell them that what they believe is a complete lie. I hate what they believe, not them. I did not mean war in a literal sense.

[NwZ2]

You have every right to think what you want to. Why you feel the need to force your beliefs on others is beyond me.

[InfidelisMax]

I don't have beliefs, I want to force reality on others. Big difference, because they want to force their religion on everyone. Live as an atheist in Alabama and then tell me what you think we should do.

[NwZ2]

Key word: force.

You can fight for your rights to not be imposed upon by anyone else, fight for the right of separation of church & state, etc. But you still can't impose on them in any way except to guarantee your freedoms, as a self maximizing rational individual, otherwise you're destroying the very thing that we hold so dear here in the U.S.

Freedom.

[InfidelisMax]

You force people not to smoke in public areas. You force people to not run naked in the streets. Fighting for my right to live free from religious oppression is going to take force. You are right, I can't change what they believe but we must force them to take their garbage out of the public arena. I was up at my sons school all the time fighting with the teachers and staff, you have to have firsthand experience to respect what we are up against.

[NwZ2]

I know *exactly* what you're up again. My gf's a christian fundamentalist so I have first hand experience dealing with theological differences in opinion. I still say a non-confrontational approach leaves both sides intact, and you defend yourself when you must.

[koenichfuerst]

If everyone is thinking the same, nobody is thinking. :-)

[2bsirius]

Learning to listen is the first step to understanding. Your videos are so refreshing because you one of the rare individuals who is willing to LISTEN to what is being said, instead of getting to some place in the opposing argument and saying, "OK...going to stop listening here. 'Cause I'm SURE I'm going to disagree with the rest of this."

I aspire to be able listen in the same spirit of inquire that you alway use.

[2bsirius]

5*ed and faved, of course...

You owe me some info btw!

[RowanFortuneWood]

This is a great video.

I like the idea of plurality and the way it seems to keep recurring within most of the more interesting philosophical perspectives. You identify the pragmatists, I remember a quote from one of Popper's books I wrote down for later reference, "These experiences also suggested to me that culture clash may loose some of its great value if one of the clashing cultures regards itself universally superior, and even more so if it is so regarded by the other"

***** and Fav.

[transparence000]

yep that "right" , but i always say :

((You play the starring role in the story, which tells your life, and all people are secondary characters, write intersting chapters in it, even if there are painful or sad chapters, but is worth reading, and take advantage of each chapter ,to make the next chapter better than before))

[epaminodas]

great response. you have an interesting and misguided perspective (i mean that in the best possible way). you fail to understand that people like veritas can never celebrate pluralism because they believe in exclusivism- it's a mandate to do so. I know this bc i lived my whole life in this environment and i've been taught this the sad thing is that the people who really believe in common values while maintaining differences are trying to build bridges only to find no one willing to reciprocate

[randyhelzerman]

lol epanimodas, yeah, never say never. And honestly, we really don't have a choice whether or not to build those bridges. If we don't, the only unity we'll have is that we'll all be dead.

[epaminodas]

lol touche randy touche :) i like your positive attitude (kinda contradicts your supposed "self defeating world view" according to a certain someone lol)

keep on truckin bro

[riversonthemoon]

Very interesting, Randy. I had a similar thought when I heard that the diversity of languages in the world was contracting. I thought it was a shame because we won't get a chance to study some of these possible grammars and ways of apprehending the world in detail. Knowing about different ways of thinking and expressing things can shed light on our own biases, I think.

[eirefrance]

Diversity of opinion IS great, because it forces us to face what we think we believe and determine if we actually believe it. Thats one of the reasons I like Youtube, it exposes me to opinions I would never hear at a party in liberal, over-educated DC. Btw, Randy, is that your home library. As an archivist, I cringe when I see how they're standing. Oh, those poor spines!!!!

[randyhelzerman]

Its not my home library, its my home concentration camp for books, where I torture them! :-) I underline them, bend the corners of their pages, read them while eating... :) LOL what is the proper way to store them? Perhaps you could post a video of your library and show us how it should be...

[Kierketaard]

Uh oh. It's the Gitmo of books - although I'm sure they're happy to have Randy as their warden.

Well, I hope you "get mo" books, but I suspect that (in our 40's) you are like me and are trying to absorb the information in the books you already have ...

[eirefrance]

Well, I have no webcam, and may soon have no job, so I'm certainly not wasting money on one. But, to begin with, each should be standing straight up and well-supported on both sides. As the spine bends, it can break the binding. Especially with todays books, because they often have hot wax glue binding, which is shit, or overswen binding, which is strong but very rigid, so a bend could damage it over time. You'll be fine, I just instinctively cringe when I see that.

[eirefrance]

But if you want your great-great-grandkids to inherit those books, you could get them each put through a alkali solution and stored properly in a temperature/humidity controlled environment that never fluctuates a few degrees from 60f. That should only cost you a few grand a year.

;)

[Danmill23]

Competition is greatest amongst equals.

[randyhelzerman]

I'm reminded of a certain scene in "Life of Brian..."