John Piper - Can I enjoy art produced by unbelievers and glorify God?

[yackon4game]

"Bask in nudity..... bask in fifty F-words...bask in a world view that is shot through with arrogance, through the core..." Is he talking about rappers? HA! Rappers are some of the most religious musicians out there. If I had a nickel for every crucifix hanging around a rappers neck. They may not be "good" Christians, but they're definitely not secular.

[TheBoxingCannabyte]

I continue to search for hints of insight and instead get met with a lot of poetry and style, but very little substance underneath. Across all religions you can find the level of passion in believers like the comments below, and the people on the screen, etc. But only with peer-reviewed science do you see people finding beauty in putting all of their beliefs up on the chopping block and subjecting them to careful and educated change.

[Redington931]

@TheBoxingCannabyte To state that it's only science is making a philosophical claim. Science did not experiment to prove you right in saying that. Logic must be necessary just as much as the science you speak of is; since that science is based on logic.

[TheBoxingCannabyte]

@Redington931, For the sake of argument, you're saying that a philosophical claim that only with science can you find beauty in having everything you believe proven wrong is invalidated because no one with a scientific background, or any peer-reviewed study has been placed on said philosophical claim? Or are you saying that I didn't elaborate on the logic behind it? As if this is the place for it, lol...

[Redington931]

@TheBoxingCannabyte I think it can be misleading to use words like "only". It would mean that you are excluding other viable ways to make certain of the truth of what people believe in. Namely logic and perhaps historical accounts along with it as well.

[TheBoxingCannabyte]

@Redington931, but logic is part of the very fabric of the scientific method. Which we've been using since we firs used our sniffers to tell if food has gone bad or not, hell, before then. The scientific method IS the ONLY way we have of discovery and verification. Because the scientific method is us, a very extension of our senses and brain. And that, my friend, is not philosophy, that is fact.

[Redington931]

@TheBoxingCannabyte "IS" and "ONLY" are terms in making a philosophical statement. Science and philosophy are interconnect, I'm not trying to deny that if that's what you think my aim is. I'm saying that there are many things we can't put under a microscope in order to find out if they are certifiably true.

[xRisingForcex]

immensely eye-opening. God bless.

[1LonePuma]

Mr. John Piper has shown extreme wisdom in discerning the defaults of a world filled with evil deceptions, where humanity has bought into Satan’s momentary delights, but leads to utter destruction. Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby. Matthew 7:13.

[lifeInAFallenWorld22]

I think a person can still enjoy secular entertainment only to a certain degree. We should not take pleasure in seeing nudity in films or hearing endless curse words like John Piper is saying but a person can take time out to enjoy a movie or a secular book as long as they live and continue to live a righteous life and always put God first. The world has become so entertainment obsessed and that is not good at all. Even I am guilty.

[mrshineright]

@theraffi31 sorry but Islam is not the truth, neither is christianity. Jesus Christ is the truth!

[chocho153]

thank you for this video

[kkallebb]

Sorry, is he saying that it is OK to eat meat from animals sacrificed to idols?

[soulmage11]

@kkallebb All things are good for us, there is no need to concern yourselves with anything other than God. We do not need to shy from something dedicated to idols, when we know all things are for the Glory of the one who keeps you and created all things, and in Him all things are held together. If you do not believe God will keep you, do not eat it. I know my God is a God of Power, which I need not worry about any other rituals done to meat offered to me for food.

[Hovisify]

What kind of people ask these questions? Where is their common sense? The Old Testament says I must carry a stick to scrub myself everytime I leave the tent and need to go. Is it OK for a Christian to use toilet paper instead?

[sandrock605]

@Hovisify

I wouldn't worry too much about it. There are people out there who believe we came from apes and ask questions accordingly.

[twerpuser]

Interesting but I prefer John Piper the "Artists"

[JPNR]

That's a great explanation love it! Agree 100% percent. As we are called to walk as Jesus walked. We should hate the things God hates and not enjoy them as entertainment. And love the things that God loves, holiness etc... God bless John Piper

[d1cky]

Right on John Piper!

[TheTrippmeister]

Which is more arrogant... the worldview that claims ultimate knowledge? Or the one that claims to know nothing certain at all?

[Stiggandr1]

@TheTrippmeister The truth is that we all have sinned and are all worthy of death. The truth is that the our loving creator has offered us not a means away from death but a means to Him who is life.

One denies this truth for a self gratifying lie, the other submits themselves to the word of God and accepts their own sinfulness and inability and Gods love and provision.

Who then is arrogant?

[TheTrippmeister]

@Stiggandr1 Do you think that I would not prefer there to be a kind and loving God? But to pretend to believe in something of which I have not been convinced is, to me, far more arrogant than honesty. The simple truth is that I do not know.

How am I to know that one particular religion is correct over any other - or that any of them are? I have never encountered anyone able to make a convincing case. Absent extraordinary evidence, extraordinary claims do indeed, seem arrogant to me.

[Stiggandr1]

@TheTrippmeister The interesting thing about faithfulness is that you will never see it until you have faith. It takes very little faith to utter a little prayer so you wont see much of Gods faithfulness. But when you believe and say God my Life is yours. I'll die unto myself everyday I recognize you as not only savior from my sins deserving death but sovereign Lord of my life things start to happen.

[JPNR]

@TheTrippmeister If you seek Him you will find Him.

[franceseattle]

@TheTrippmeister Believing in God is evidenced more by obedience than my mental agreement. It takes little effort to agree with something intellectually, but a whole lot more to obey. Many people ask questions forever, but really are not interested in knowing the answers or in finding the truth. Only you can know if you are one of these, or if you genuinely wish to have the truth. I could make a very convincing case, or I could refer you to C.S. Lewis' fine book: Mere Christianity.

[franceseattle]

@TheTrippmeister Have you ever heard the principle of "acting as if.."?  You should spend one month trying daily to act as if you believed the Gospel. Read in the Gospel of John every day for a month, or in Luke's Gospel, and ask God to speak to your heart each day and show himself to you. At the end of the month, if you are still unconvinced, then you will make your own inference as to the truth. However, sitting on the fence for the rest of your life won't really answer your questions.

[josephearl2]

@smileyjarvis U know the same God that I do!! He is amazing.

[sirmoosa]

Excellent response!

[blazereef]

@DanRoberts6289 yes, we know, the bible reeks if bigotry and ignorance, no need to quote the bible to an atheist, we have actually read the whole thing

[blazereef]

@DanRoberts6289 if you had the choice, would you ban all atheist comedy, debates etc from TV? i mean things that are solely for promoting atheism, would you ban those? if not, would you if they started convincing people that religion is just another death cult?

[JEWeimar]

This is actually well timed. I'm 20 and I've been talking about the becoming a Preacher with my Pastor. One of the thing he said is be careful of what you use to make a point on stage because the congregation might see it as an endorsement when said media might be detrimental to the Kingdom. So, I've been alert on my media lately. And, my friends asked me to see Scott Pilgrim today. But, I'm not a big fan of Cera as he's played some bad parts. But, I'm going. Not to bask in it but missionally.

[IkarOphir]

@DanRoberts6289 Good on you brother.

[blazereef]

slayer has two christian members and one of their albums od "south of heaven" with the cover song written by one of the christian members

[xRONx89]

@blazereef They are not christians. As a former Slayer fan, I used to think that as well. But many will cry on that day "Lord, Lord!" and die and go to Hell because they lived their life on the broadway to Hell.  By their fruits we know them.

[blazereef]

@xRONx89 tom is a catholic and i think that hanneman is also. what "fruits" are you talking about? many atheists and religious people are good and christian doctrine has no good "fruits" and yes, i know god will torture innocent people because they did not buy the bullshit

[xRONx89]

@blazereef If I remember correctly it was Tom and Dave. Also, the fruit is found in Galatians 5:22-23. Our "fruit" comes from the newness of heart that Christ gives us (Ezekiel 36:25-27). But the fruit of someone damned to Hell is found in Galatians 5:19-21. God does NOT send good people to Hell. In fact, the Bible says no one is good before God (Romans 3:10-12 and 23). All are criminals before a perfectly just God and are justified by the life, death, and resurrection of Christ.

[blazereef]

@xRONx89 so, you think that no one on the planet is good? i can PROVE that a majority of the population of the WORLD are more moral then the god of the bible. if you saw a person walk by someone being raped and they did not atleast call the police, what would you call this person? if you were in that situation wouldn't you call the police? if you say you would cal the police, you are better then god because with god, he is all-knowing and all-powerful so he could instantly stop it.

[YamiKazeSora]

@blazereef Bad things like that only happen when God's will is being disobeyed. God let us choose right from wrong. But people, who are self-seeking and want to do what they want to do, defy God and go against God. People who seek their fleshly desires use the freewill God gave them for evil. The evil of the world will be punished for eternity, don't doubt that.

But why do people always point at God when bad things happen and point to the "morals of humanity" when good things happen?

[blazereef]

@YamiKazeSora like i said, you would (most of the human race included also) most likely ATLEAST call the police and are only a mere mortal, your "god" is all-knowing and all-powerful and could instantly paralize the evil person or anything else he wanted but he does nothing, therefor YOU and MOST of the human population are MORE MORAL THEN YOUR GOD. no excaping this unless you say you would do nothing for the person being raped then of coarse, you would be evil but you obviously are not like god

[blazereef]

@YamiKazeSora i never said that a god actually let things happen, but you said that god is just and good, i PROVED that he is less moral then most of the human population, most humans that have ever lived were more moral then the biblical god and im saying that how can you say something that would not even try to stop a rape or innocent person being murdered is good or just when you yourself would stop it from happening? also, when good or bad things happen, its people doing it

[smileyjarvis]

@blazereef If there's no God, where does your definition of what's good and bad come from?

Being a consistent atheist, presumably you don't believe there are any eternal consequences to anyone's actions, all our values are just man-made... so why shouldn't anyone rape or kill if they want? it's not like the innocent lives were really worth anything, they were gonna cease existing sometime.

The only way we can say something is objectively wrong is if there's some absolute standard.

[blazereef]

@smileyjarvis if there is a god, where does your definition of good and bad come from? a god doesn't make morality objective either, how many times do people have to explain to you religious people that morality can NOT EVER BE OBJECTIVE, EVER. taste in food, beauty, taste in cars are all subjective, the same with morality, it is NOT objective even with a god. i base it on suffering and empathy and compassion. there life should not matter to YOU since you beleive .....

[blazereef]

@smileyjarvis that they are going to go to a perfect afterlife, its not me that should not care, i know its the only life they have so its worth something, you beleive in heaven so this life should be meaningless to you, not me. you know a movie is going to end but you still watch it, right? also, morality does NOT come from no holy book because we are almost ALL more moral then the fairytale bible

[smileyjarvis]

@blazereef In a way you're right, I do care more about eternity than this life.

Since God created us, I believe he gets to decide what's good and bad for us, and if people don't follow his instructions, they are living the wrong way.

Do you seriously believe that to say killing is wrong is no different to telling someone their taste in food is "wrong"? It doesn't seem like you do. Where do you think your sense of compassion comes from?

[blazereef]

@smileyjarvis ok, so you take back you argument that i would care less about this life then you? if god is not real, then by your logic, a parent has the right to decide what is right and has the right to TORTURE their children FOR ETERNITY if they break even one rule and dont repent, correct? you have to or you have to drop the argument that god decides whats right. morality is subjective just like taste in music, i wasn't saying they are equal but that morality CANT be objective. from within

[smileyjarvis]

@blazereef I don't believe parents should torture their children, and I'm glad you don't either, but if there was really no absolute morality, we would have no basis for telling them that our morals are better than theirs.

As for God's justice, I think you've got the wrong idea about hell. God doesn't enjoy punishing people. If he did, he wouldn't have gone through the crucifixion to save us from the punishment we deserve by taking it on himself.

[blazereef]

@smileyjarvis if you did not want people to be tortured forever (lets put you in gods shoes, and no hopping around when i corner you) then wouldn't you just not have created hell? wouldn't you ATLEAST only torture them for a while and not ETERNITY? too bad god is all-knowing and would know that it would not stop even half of the human race from burning forever lol. if you were in gods shoes, would you allow child rape, eternal hell and newborn babies to be born with horrible deseases?

[smileyjarvis]

@blazereef I think the hell you're imagining is incorrect. It certainly won't be a pleasant place to be, but sending people to hell is giving the people what they want, it's for people who want to be their own god and not have their Creator get in the way. They wouldn't want to go to heaven, because that's where God is.

In Luke 16, Jesus describes a man in hell asking for someone to reduce the agony, but he doesn't ask to leave hell.

[smileyjarvis]

@blazereef I'm not quite sure what caused you to resort to "you are pathetic", but you seem pretty upset about something. Is there something specific to you that you feel God, if he existed, should have done something to prevent?

I don't know why God allows some suffering, but I do know that a lot of people (who've had real problems, I wouldn't claim to have gone through anything that bad myself) say that going through difficult times made them better people, and drew them closer to God...

[smileyjarvis]

@blazereef ...I also know that God is just, and while we might not see justice in this life, we will in the next, and no one will complain that they've been treated unfairly.

At the root of all sin is rejection of our creator, denying him his rightful place in charge of our lives, and making ourselves the god of our lives. We've all done it, and he has the right to wipe us out, but because he loves us, he gives us the chance to turn back to him.

[blazereef]

@smileyjarvis "he has the right to wipe us out" ? if there was no god, would a parent have the right to "wipe out" their children?

[smileyjarvis]

@blazereef We've covered this ground before. Say there was some culture in some undiscovered part of the world, where their morality said that parents do have the right to destroy their children if they're disobedient. If morals are just like taste in music, what right do we have to tell them their culture is wrong?

Since God created us, he does have the right to decide what's right and wrong.

[blazereef]

@smileyjarvis in my opinion they would be immoral but this is not abot absolute morality (even with god, it cant possibly exist) but its that i have shown you that even your own inner morality knows that you are more moral then your god yet you still worship this fairytale monster

[smileyjarvis]

@blazereef

If there is a God, he gets to decide what's right and wrong.

If there is no God, you can't say that one set of morals is better than another.

[rdor011]

@smileyjarvis This brand of calvinist dogma goes way further than that, nothing short of complete self-abasement is good enough , we are but a means to an end... but what kind of God treats his created beings in a utilitarian manner? How can you call that love?

[smileyjarvis]

@rdor011 I'm afraid I don't see how you got utilitarian from what I said, but I'll try to respond anyway... I believe God created us for a relationship with him - the Bible talks about Christ's relationship with the church being like a marriage - and we've all cheated on him. His love for us is shown by his willingness to take us back.

[rdor011]

@smileyjarvis utilitarian as in God creates man to glorify himself, and cares for (some of) his creation only so that it can achieve this end. That is calvinism.

[smileyjarvis]

@blazereef If you were in God's shoes, after you'd stopped all the rapists and murderers, how far would you go with the clean up? have you ever done anything that's harmed anyone else in some way?

[blazereef]

@smileyjarvis i would clean it up all the way. yes, i have hurt other people, but i have never did anything close to what god does in the bible and if god is real, he is allowing children to be raped as we speak and many are starving, this is something i (nor you) would allow, this is why you and me and most other people are more moral then your god, i wish you people would own up to it, YOU ARE BETTER THEN YOUR GOD, how does it feel to worship something that you are better then?

[blazereef]

@YamiKazeSora if you have someone freewill (where in the bible does god supposedly give us freewill?) and they were about to rape or murder an innocent person even a CHILD, would you not stop them? if yes, you are more moral then god, if no, you are insane, i doubt you would allow it to happen. also, you dont have to violate freewill to stop it, dont use that argument or i will demolish it. so, you think finite crime deserve infinite punishement? by definition that is infinitely immoral

[YamiKazeSora]

@blazereef Sin is an infinite crime. I can see why you don't see how big of a crime it is. The World comes up with it's own morals and it seems good. Until you compare it to the Holiness of God. (Which by your comments you have never seen) God gave us choice. He never forced us to do anything but he showed us the way that leads to life. People chose to stay slave to their sin and do what they want. God can stop all the murders and rapists but man will still do evil.

[blazereef]

@YamiKazeSora i can prove right now that you are more moral then god, do you want that? i mean your god is supposedly allknowing, he would know that you even know you are more moral because by what i tell you, you will not be able to stop your own thoughts, and they will alert your god that you think you are better, because you ARE. debate me through a PM, i fucking dare you

[YamiKazeSora]

@blazereef I've seen my morality. I've seen God's. My morality is nothing more than dung. You keep talking about morals. Morals aren't what define good and bad people. You can have great morals and be a horrible person. God is not moral he's HOLY. I'll never will be better.

I don't want to debate. I already see your hatred for God surpasses your willingness to even look at God in a different light. I pray for the love of God to abound in your life in such a way, you can't contain it.

[blazereef]

@YamiKazeSora you have not seen gods morality, you have read a book that claims its gods word. would you EVER torture someone for not beleiving you are real or condemn the decendents for what an ancestor did? i have NO hatred towards god, im atheist, i cant hate something i dont beleive is real, i do however hate what religion does to people like you. you dont want debate because you KNOW you are full of shit. pray for god to show his love to the many children being raped as we speak

[xRONx89]

@blazereef No one is good because we all have broken God's laws. And our "good" is compared to filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6). It's like a murderer trying to say he should be let go free cause of the good he did after the murder. God is perfectly just, perfect justice must be met. God doesn't stop it because his judgement will fall upon that rapist in life by death and if he doesn't repent and trust in Christ will face eternal hell because of that.

[blazereef]

@xRONx89 have to say that you are insane and evil, to think that no one on the planet can be considered a decent person because of one sin, no matter how small, is a mental illness. if a christian women is being raped by an atheist, she loses ALL faith right before he puts a bullet in the back of her head because, well, gods letting his prescious children be raped, the rapist however repents and honestly askes for forgiveness, then a train hits him, where do both go since they have died?

[blazereef]

@xRONx89 im guessing you will say the women went to hell and the rapist goes to heaven. if this is what you think, do you think they deserve it? also, if you reply back by saying that ANYONE is less moral then your god, i will prove that they are actually better then god, i can prove that you are better then god in one paragraph, its quite sad that you (claim to) think that he is moral yet a mere mortal (me) can show how you are better then god 10000x over

[derocdero]

Amen brother Piper, couldn't have said it better myself. 

[xWhiteLightning]

nice answer