Australians not only rejected Whitlam at the election they delivered Labor the greatest kick in the ass in Australian electoral history ! The " Loans & Morosi affairs '' plus the diabolical state of the economy had Australians fed up ! I have no doubt there was covert agitation involving the CIA and possibly ASIO. But if the Whitlam government had been a good one it wouldn't have been smashed a mere month after the events of November 11th. Lest We Forget
I voted for Gough before and after the C.I.A. coup that was perpetrated on the Australian people in 1975. Many of us were shocked when he didn't get back into power, either the Australian people were as stupid as they still are now or the post coup election was tampered with, I'll go for the latter.
Many Australians still haven't a clue what was done to their system of government back then, in fact they still haven't a clue about most things that occur on this planet.
This is the Elephant in the room of Australian Politics NEVER mentioned in the mainstream media. The US Ambassador in this period was Marshall Green who had been on hand for coups in Korea & Indonesia and Kerr was a member of CIA front organisations.
Well, the Australian government has the ability to sack Kevin Rudd and replace him with corporate puppet Julia Gillard without the public's consent. They don't give a fuck about you.
As an American, I can see why many Australians were pissed off by the coup-and it was a coup-that subverted the Whitlam government.
Whitlam wanted to dump the US/Aussie inttelligence set-up, opposed the Vietnam war and made necessary reforms. He also treated Australians like a seperate and indepedent people-not the lapdogs of the US and UK-and for his troubles he was removed from office.
Democracy was subverted and the Aussies here who don't believe that are fascist/nazi scum.
The sacking of Whitlam was a nothing more then a coup conducted by the CIA and the monarchist Liberals with the full backing of the corporate media. It was a dark day for Australian democracy. The propaganda and misinformation campaign run by the conservatives ever since has suckers still celebrating this terrible injustice.
@Tuathalful That is likely the truth. Basically, the Whitlam affair demonstrated clearly how democracy can be and always is subverted in so-called free nations like Australia.
Australia is not a free and independent nation and any Aussie who thinks so is a bloody fool.
hahahah. i manipulated the little troll into leaving comments up on his ape site. love how you run away from me outing you about your racism. i knew it would eventually come out and i have nailed you for it. free speech? nope! not on myspace you don't. community standards here are the law and you're up shit creek with a turd for a paddle. so ride your crycycle to emo town all you want...you will soon be just another stain on the toilet bowl.
Yes, that is why they both had a little "holiday" together & went to Lebanon & to the crowded gaols which were under control of the Syrian Army & free'd the gaols up by giving the prisoners "RESIDENCY" under "our multiculturalism policy" and no wonder we have the problems we have today with these backward savages.
Thanks to Whitlam & Grassby, the streets of Sydney & Melbourne are nothing but like the Gaza Strip, thanks to these 2 New World Order, traitors to The Crown.
Actually, EVERY decent, honourable Australian is interested in the UNDEMOCRATIC manner that the greatest Prime-Minister that Australia produced was forced to leave the job that the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF AUSTRALIAN'S WANTED HIM TO PERFORM-A JOB THAT GOUGH WAS DOING BRILLIANTLY.
In future, feel free to get a clue before you post your immature little 'rants' in public.
@FalseFlagAmerican Clearly an overwhelming majority of Australians did not want him to continue as PM; they voted the ALP out of office in the election only 30 days after the dismissal.
Whitlam did some good as Prime Minister; he also was involved in stuff ups and some very shabby deals (Khemlani, for one).
He was putting at risk our special intelligence and defence relationship with the US; patriots in various positions of authority decided to stop him, and were vindicated at the ballot box.
@disamjisa Judging by the polls at the time, the overwhelming majority of Australian's supported Gough until that patriot Murdoch and the other media conglomerates set to work to villify him and his legacy. Khemlani was a bag man on the CIA payroll. What seems curious now is that the sourcing of funding from Arab countries is de rigeur for conservative governments. What they didn't like was the idea that loans of that nature and magnitude could be used to "buy back the farm".
@SvendBosanvovski The CIA couldn't care less about whether Australia wants to "buy back the farm", other major NATO and non-NATO allies were and are far more progressive than Australia.
What they did have an interest in was preventing Whitlam from making public very sensitive defence secrets and moving us away from the US alliance, a very poor move. The CIA may have been involved as a bit player, lobbying etc, but I can assure you this was an Australian measure.
@disamjisa What Whitlam, as the leader of our elected government, and Attorney General Lionel Murphy took exception to was the way that Stalling and other US consular officials were witholding information vital to Australia's national interest from them, meddling in our domestic affairs, and setting out to destabilize his government. The US establishment interpreted Whitlam's strong independent stance as inimical to the alliance.
@SvendBosanvovski Hey Svend.. I totally agree about CIA involvement in domestic politics; their relationship to Doug Anthony, the leader of the Country Party (Nationals) was obviously very much a puppet of Stalling, I think it was very poor faith for our closest ally to be involved in that.
Undoubtedly the US was, and still does, withhold information from the US; we regularly withhold information from the Americans. Overall though, the system of information sharing works.
@disamjisa Lost the plot? What plot? In the 18 months of unimpeded governance he established the Family Court, Medicare, free tertiary education, National Gallery of Australia, Trade Practices Commission, Federal Court, Australian National Parks & Wildlife, Legal Aid Office, National Gallery, national human right body, Racial Discrimination Act, aboriginal reconciliation, multiculturalism, reestablished diplomatic relations with China, and got our troops out of the phoney war in Vietnam.
@SvendBosanvovski Freakin quick response =) I just logged on and typed a couple of new responses, check them out if you haven't.
Re: Whitlam's policies. I pointed out Whitlam did good things, like the things you mentioned above. I agree with those measures and programs. However getting involved with Khemlani, and making such a huge, public issue out of Pine Gap, and the US alliance, showed the government had lost perspective.
@disamjisa Indeed, you did. Enduring achievements are the measure of any government. So for mine, Gough's ranks as the greatest reforming government we have had. It is said that he moved too quickly to apply his vision. Well, we can thank his opponents for that. From the outset they obstructed every vital piece of legislation his government introduced. The urgency arose from the realisation that their uncompromising stance meant, to quote Laurie Oakes, he had to crash through or crash.
@disamjisa Few would argue that the US Australian alliance is important for both nations. There are matters of state that, for very good reasons, never enter the public domain. But there were some very shady characters lurking in the background, who were clearly exceeding their brief and undermining our domestic democratic processes. You'll know who there were. In hind sight, it could truely be said that they were not promoting the Alliance, but undermining it.
@SvendBosanvovski I know this because my mother's grandfather, a retired senior army officer, was involved as an intermediary between Fraser and Kerr in the period leading up (a friend of the former, and acquaintance of the latter).
It was pushed primarily by people from our own defence establishment and security services. The dismissal might have been arguably inconsistent with constitutional precedent, but it was not unlawful and it was the right thing to do. Whitlam had lost the plot.
@disamjisa The CIA's involvement in the overthrow of the Whitlam government needs to be understood in the broader, international context. The late Jonathan Kwitty's great little primer "The Crimes of Patriots: A True Story of Dope, Dirty Money, and the C.I.A." is not a bad start.
@SvendBosanvovski The fact is that Whitlam knew the Americans were withholding information from him, but he actually did not know what. His curiosity drove his desire to find out what it was, information that it may not have been appropriate for a PM to have.
For example, he demanded a list of the names and postings of all ASIS agents; information no Minister or PM should ask for, particularly considering that this information is highly classified and could easily leak from the PM's office.
@disamjisa Yes, there are somethings in the US national interest that he did not need to know about. But he was out PM, much loved and admired by millions of Australians, and the systematic destruction of his government and his reputation was a national disgrace, given the extraordinary contribution he made under fire. Those enduring contribution still ring in our ears. What might he have achieved if allowed to govern without the obstruction by those who never accepted his mandate?
@SvendBosanvovski (Reply part 1) Hey Svend, I feel we are actually closer in our views than I initially thought. I wish that Whitlam had taken it a little slower, been more cautious, been more discreet about the issues with the US alliance, been more incremental.
The CIA was not being a good ally, recruiting high political figures as sources and agents (Doug Anthony, John Kerr etc), and their involvement in probably criminal activity with Nugen-Hand etc, not the action of a good friend.
@SvendBosanvovski (reply part 2) I do feel that the Whitlam government made serious mistakes by conflating the CIA's probable involvement in serious criminal offences and possibly subversive activities dealing with public officials, with US-AUS treaties and bases like Pine Gap. The US military has always been far more friendly and respectful to us. The US naturally held back some information from us, the sort they hold back from their own high officials who don't have a "need to know" clearance
@disamjisa In the current age of Amercian Empire, obediance is expected from vassal states, and the wrath of the sword will be visited upon those nations attempting to exercise independence deemed inimical to America's interest. The election circuses that come to town every four years or so are about electronic theatre. Policies are auctioned off, talking heads snarl and joke, opinon polls are recited like the daily weather, promises are made, then everyone goes home to have a sleep.
@SvendBosanvovski (Reply part 3) Finally, I just want to re-iterate. This was not a CIA coup. There were probably a dozen central players; Fraser, Kerr, a source inside the Whitlam cabinet, and a handful or so of senior public servants and Defence Chiefs, and two or three retired but influential and trusted former government officials, military officers, and a high court judge.
@disamjisa Those few defining moment in Australian Politics, such as the election of Whitlam, rattle through our lives like an earthquake. They redefine everything. Look at this current circus. An auction, where both sides trade on our deepest fears to convince us who not to vote for. It's all there: xenophobia, insecurity about jobs, fear about ageing in penury, exaggerated claims about economic collapse, the shrinking pie, and so on.
@Svendsn (Reply part 4) All of the dozen or so individuals had their connections and consultations with other people. I suspect the CIA lobbied hard to push this forward. But don't believe the lie that seems to have been pushed around the it was a CIA coup.
Except for the opportunistic Fraser and the clearly cretinous GG, all these highly accomplished and patriotic Australians understood the gravity of what they were considering and came to their decision with great difficulty and inner turmoil
@disamjisa I don't think the people you mention were in any sense evil, even John Kerr. But I have no doubt, having read deeply into this over the years, that they were all participants in a coup to unseat the legitimate government of this country. It was not just down to Kerr, but was a concerted campaign reaching back to the very early days of the first term. The blocking of supply, the sacking of Gough, and the appoibntment of Fraser were the culmination.
@SvendBosanvovski I agree. My mother's grandfather deeply opposed our withdrawal from Vietnam, and used his influence to undermine the Whitlam government, which I disagree with.
But the removal of a PM who had the confidence of the House, these men knew this was drastic, it troubled them deeply, but they felt they had no choice. They genuinely believed they had to take this drastic action, not from partisanship, but profound (if misguided) patriotism and alarm at the actions of the government.
MIsplaced patriotism is not sufficient excuse to absolve who promoted and prosecuted that phoney intervention, as it was called. I reflect on the extraordinary courage Daniel Elsberg need to muster to expose the many years of deceit foisted upon the American people and their allies. Or the courage of Dr King, JFK and Bobby Kennedy, in risking all to end that fiasco. Have you read James Douglas brilliant if at times meandering analysis "JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters"?
@disamjisa It just goes to show that some Australians are utter fools and that the country is hopelessly rightwing and fascist.
The Australian intelligence agencies were virtual franchises of the CIA in the 1970's and the US has a fairly extensive relationship with Aussie intel agencies during those years.
The Whitlam Coup-as I call it-came about because Whitlam treated Australia as a seperate nation and not the bitch of the US or the UK. He paid a price for that.
@MultiSmartass1 Yes, he was profoundly naive if he thought that he could pursue an independent foreign policy.
When it comes to intelligence, military and foreign relations, we are the bitch of whoever is the pre-eminent power. That is what happens when you are a country the size that we are, out on the edge of the world surrounded by people with entirely different values and culture than ourselves.
Its called dealing with reality, rather than living in fantasy land.
@disamjisa White Australians are still naive. They don't realize that they were and still are a colonized people. They think only brown people are colonized. Bullshit.
Australia was largely a protectorate of the British Navy and a colonial possession then after WWII came under the American orbit.
In fact, they are trying be more like the US than the UK ever could.
Australians need to wake up. If it means learning the lessons of history, so be it.
@MultiSmartass1 I agree. Anyone who thinks that our contribution to Vietnam, Desert Storm, Iraq and Afghanistan is anything other than a blood tribute in exchange for the protection of the Anglo-American empire is profoundly naive.
Its not an ideal position to be in a subordinate and peripheral position in "the empire", out here on the antipodes, its simply the geopolitical reality. The men who did over Whitlam understood this, and understood we could not and cannot go it alone.
@disamjisa Australians are white cannon fodder. They have been since Gallipoli and I bet serious money that Aussies still don't know the truth about that masacre.
The festering dead, the rotting corpses lying in feces and various fluids.
Australians have been part of the American Empire since the end of World War II and have paid the price in losing sons to wars they didn't start and shouldn't have been a part of it.
@SvendBosanvovski I guess I feel it is important to dispel the notion that this was a sinister plot; Kerr was too stupid to be evil. The men around him did conspire to bring down the government, but they were not James Bond villains, they were men (most had fought in the Second World War) who had deep reservations about the direction of the country.
Their actions weren't appropriate, I agree, but from loyalty to my own family, I feel obliged to put the point of view one person who was there.
@disamjisa I am not well placed to judge the motives of those involved in the coup, and over the years I have developed a greater respect for Malcolm Fraser, who expresses a genuine concern for victims of human rights abuses. Kerr was not a stupid man. He was former Chief Justice of the NSW Supreme Court, and sought the counsel of Sir Garfield Barwick, Chief Justice, before he sacked Gough. Kerr, who's connections with CIA funded bodies is well known, clearly understood the implications.
@SvendBosanvovski I agree about Kerr's connections to the CIA, I think it was through some front-group publication, part of some "cultural congress" that was clearly an organ of western foreign policy. The fact that he had personal and professional connections to a foreign intelligence agency was not unusual for Australians who were involved in World War II in command or intelligence positions.
@disamjisa Kerr was heavily involved with Law Asia, operated by Association for Cultural Freedom, a CIA front. That body also established Quadrant magazine.
@SvendBosanvovski (reply part 2) Most of the people involved were old boys from Fort Street and Cranbrook, and most of them fought in the war. Most of them came from well established New South Wales families (Fraser excepted, a Melbournian), and most of them knew each other personally as well as professionally.
Among this influential milieu, the view was formed quite independently that Whitlam was undermining Australian national security and international standing.
@SvendBosanvovski (reply part 3) As I mentioned above, many of these people, including my own forbear, were profoundly anti-communist and pro-American because of their personal experience fighting alongside Americans in the Pacific, and from involvement in Malaya and Indonesia.
The people who surrounded and urged Kerr to act did so for logical, if not entirely moral reasons. And I hasten to add again, for patriotic reasons, not because they got a call from someone at the CIA telling them to.
@disamjisa That's interesting. Attitudes to communism changed during the war. The Soviet Union was an ally and essential to victory. I remember reading Fletcher Prouty's account of how, just after the Japanese sued for peace in May 1945, he asked Kermit Roosevelt what the US would be doing with all the bombs after the war ended. He wrote that Roosevelt replied that they would be used in Vietnam and Korea to contain the spread of communism, two years before the formation of the CIA.
@SvendBosanvovski (reply part 3) The Americans (and to a lesser extent the British) complained bitterly about Whitlam to Australians who were more or less in a position to do something about it. But it was not a foreign coup, as salacious, appealing and exculpatory as that explanation may be.
@disamjisa You may be right. Murdoch, Doug Anthony, and all those other major players you mention carry the principal burden of responsibilty. But could they have done it without Marshall Green, Ted Shackley and other shady operatives? The arrival of bagman Khemlani and Murdoch willingness to whip up hysteria during the capital strike had all the marking of CIA psychops. Sure they didn't like Gough. They weren't expected to. They wrecked his government and denied the people their choice.
karl TEXSHREK your mum AKA the world famous AUSSIE cum sponge .measured her pay by how many baby bottles of ejaculation she could wipe out of here crotch
well check who's doing all the trolling for a strart (dhansingbear/fucktexwhatever/y760nitro/acomsrazor for a start).
and my second point is you have a clip up about the whitlam dismissal and the CIA involvement....what do you expect is going to happen? OF COURSE the left and the right are going to hook into each other and have a go.
even Hollywood can acknowledge this story, they made a movie about it. Yet we cant. See "The Falcon and the Snowman" with Sean Penn, or read about "Nugan Hand" a dodgy Australian bank that went bankrupt in the 80's and its CIA director. Go to Parliamentary Hansard in the mid-1970s and look in the index under "CIA Intellegence Activities in Australia" or find the Ted Shackley Memo. The CIA screwed with our government to protect its listening bases.
Australians not only rejected Whitlam at the election they delivered Labor the greatest kick in the ass in Australian electoral history ! The " Loans & Morosi affairs '' plus the diabolical state of the economy had Australians fed up ! I have no doubt there was covert agitation involving the CIA and possibly ASIO. But if the Whitlam government had been a good one it wouldn't have been smashed a mere month after the events of November 11th. Lest We Forget
2004DAZZA 2 months ago
I voted for Gough before and after the C.I.A. coup that was perpetrated on the Australian people in 1975. Many of us were shocked when he didn't get back into power, either the Australian people were as stupid as they still are now or the post coup election was tampered with, I'll go for the latter.
Many Australians still haven't a clue what was done to their system of government back then, in fact they still haven't a clue about most things that occur on this planet.
TelecasterLPGTop 3 months ago 2
This is the Elephant in the room of Australian Politics NEVER mentioned in the mainstream media. The US Ambassador in this period was Marshall Green who had been on hand for coups in Korea & Indonesia and Kerr was a member of CIA front organisations.
BlackMariaDownUnder 8 months ago
You can tell Gough Whitlam was fucking awesome just by looking at him. Why? He looks EXACTLY like Franklin D. Roosevelt.
Anon371 1 year ago
Well, the Australian government has the ability to sack Kevin Rudd and replace him with corporate puppet Julia Gillard without the public's consent. They don't give a fuck about you.
Anon371 1 year ago
Marshall Green, The US ambassador was crucial in the destabilisation and overthrow of democaracy in Australia.
The US deserves all the pain that's coming. They are a decrepit excuse for a country, even Obama can't help that pig swill.
chitchant 1 year ago
As an American, I can see why many Australians were pissed off by the coup-and it was a coup-that subverted the Whitlam government.
Whitlam wanted to dump the US/Aussie inttelligence set-up, opposed the Vietnam war and made necessary reforms. He also treated Australians like a seperate and indepedent people-not the lapdogs of the US and UK-and for his troubles he was removed from office.
Democracy was subverted and the Aussies here who don't believe that are fascist/nazi scum.
MultiSmartass1 1 year ago
The sacking of Whitlam was a nothing more then a coup conducted by the CIA and the monarchist Liberals with the full backing of the corporate media. It was a dark day for Australian democracy. The propaganda and misinformation campaign run by the conservatives ever since has suckers still celebrating this terrible injustice.
Tuathalful 1 year ago
@Tuathalful That is likely the truth. Basically, the Whitlam affair demonstrated clearly how democracy can be and always is subverted in so-called free nations like Australia.
Australia is not a free and independent nation and any Aussie who thinks so is a bloody fool.
MultiSmartass1 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
The governor general did not sack the government. The people did.
The governor general brought about an early election.
The governor general was doing his job not playing politics.
The people voted.
gubbadog 2 years ago
@gubbadog That's bullshit and you know it.
They could very have called for an election and if one had been held properly and Whitlam lost, that would have been it.
No, they wanted to push him out-they wanted the coup.
The people were in place and In my analysis, this was probably one of the easiest coups perpetrated on the leadership of a nation.
They wanted Whitlam out-the election was window dressing and probably rigged anyway.
MultiSmartass1 1 year ago
the musics a bit much mate
trueuzis 3 years ago
deutsch invovlement
alarm....alarm
trueuzis 3 years ago
hahahah. i manipulated the little troll into leaving comments up on his ape site. love how you run away from me outing you about your racism. i knew it would eventually come out and i have nailed you for it. free speech? nope! not on myspace you don't. community standards here are the law and you're up shit creek with a turd for a paddle. so ride your crycycle to emo town all you want...you will soon be just another stain on the toilet bowl.
TexWhatever 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Who gives a flying fuck about how this old cunt got the boot, as long as he was punted thats all that matters.
he used to get sucked off by Al Grassby in the lodge.
Al Grassby entered hell April 23rd 2005
BURN GRASSBY BURN
antifarleft 2 years ago
Yes, that is why they both had a little "holiday" together & went to Lebanon & to the crowded gaols which were under control of the Syrian Army & free'd the gaols up by giving the prisoners "RESIDENCY" under "our multiculturalism policy" and no wonder we have the problems we have today with these backward savages.
Thanks to Whitlam & Grassby, the streets of Sydney & Melbourne are nothing but like the Gaza Strip, thanks to these 2 New World Order, traitors to The Crown.
GodBotherer1 2 years ago
Actually, EVERY decent, honourable Australian is interested in the UNDEMOCRATIC manner that the greatest Prime-Minister that Australia produced was forced to leave the job that the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF AUSTRALIAN'S WANTED HIM TO PERFORM-A JOB THAT GOUGH WAS DOING BRILLIANTLY.
In future, feel free to get a clue before you post your immature little 'rants' in public.
FalseFlagAmerican 2 years ago 15
@FalseFlagAmerican Clearly an overwhelming majority of Australians did not want him to continue as PM; they voted the ALP out of office in the election only 30 days after the dismissal.
Whitlam did some good as Prime Minister; he also was involved in stuff ups and some very shabby deals (Khemlani, for one).
He was putting at risk our special intelligence and defence relationship with the US; patriots in various positions of authority decided to stop him, and were vindicated at the ballot box.
disamjisa 1 year ago
@disamjisa Judging by the polls at the time, the overwhelming majority of Australian's supported Gough until that patriot Murdoch and the other media conglomerates set to work to villify him and his legacy. Khemlani was a bag man on the CIA payroll. What seems curious now is that the sourcing of funding from Arab countries is de rigeur for conservative governments. What they didn't like was the idea that loans of that nature and magnitude could be used to "buy back the farm".
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski The CIA couldn't care less about whether Australia wants to "buy back the farm", other major NATO and non-NATO allies were and are far more progressive than Australia.
What they did have an interest in was preventing Whitlam from making public very sensitive defence secrets and moving us away from the US alliance, a very poor move. The CIA may have been involved as a bit player, lobbying etc, but I can assure you this was an Australian measure.
disamjisa 1 year ago
@disamjisa What Whitlam, as the leader of our elected government, and Attorney General Lionel Murphy took exception to was the way that Stalling and other US consular officials were witholding information vital to Australia's national interest from them, meddling in our domestic affairs, and setting out to destabilize his government. The US establishment interpreted Whitlam's strong independent stance as inimical to the alliance.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski Hey Svend.. I totally agree about CIA involvement in domestic politics; their relationship to Doug Anthony, the leader of the Country Party (Nationals) was obviously very much a puppet of Stalling, I think it was very poor faith for our closest ally to be involved in that.
Undoubtedly the US was, and still does, withhold information from the US; we regularly withhold information from the Americans. Overall though, the system of information sharing works.
disamjisa 1 year ago
@disamjisa Lost the plot? What plot? In the 18 months of unimpeded governance he established the Family Court, Medicare, free tertiary education, National Gallery of Australia, Trade Practices Commission, Federal Court, Australian National Parks & Wildlife, Legal Aid Office, National Gallery, national human right body, Racial Discrimination Act, aboriginal reconciliation, multiculturalism, reestablished diplomatic relations with China, and got our troops out of the phoney war in Vietnam.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski Freakin quick response =) I just logged on and typed a couple of new responses, check them out if you haven't.
Re: Whitlam's policies. I pointed out Whitlam did good things, like the things you mentioned above. I agree with those measures and programs. However getting involved with Khemlani, and making such a huge, public issue out of Pine Gap, and the US alliance, showed the government had lost perspective.
disamjisa 1 year ago
@disamjisa Indeed, you did. Enduring achievements are the measure of any government. So for mine, Gough's ranks as the greatest reforming government we have had. It is said that he moved too quickly to apply his vision. Well, we can thank his opponents for that. From the outset they obstructed every vital piece of legislation his government introduced. The urgency arose from the realisation that their uncompromising stance meant, to quote Laurie Oakes, he had to crash through or crash.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@disamjisa Few would argue that the US Australian alliance is important for both nations. There are matters of state that, for very good reasons, never enter the public domain. But there were some very shady characters lurking in the background, who were clearly exceeding their brief and undermining our domestic democratic processes. You'll know who there were. In hind sight, it could truely be said that they were not promoting the Alliance, but undermining it.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski I know this because my mother's grandfather, a retired senior army officer, was involved as an intermediary between Fraser and Kerr in the period leading up (a friend of the former, and acquaintance of the latter).
It was pushed primarily by people from our own defence establishment and security services. The dismissal might have been arguably inconsistent with constitutional precedent, but it was not unlawful and it was the right thing to do. Whitlam had lost the plot.
disamjisa 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski Besides, all the good stuff from Whitlam (Medicare, Tertiary education etc) was kept.
disamjisa 1 year ago
@disamjisa The CIA's involvement in the overthrow of the Whitlam government needs to be understood in the broader, international context. The late Jonathan Kwitty's great little primer "The Crimes of Patriots: A True Story of Dope, Dirty Money, and the C.I.A." is not a bad start.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski The fact is that Whitlam knew the Americans were withholding information from him, but he actually did not know what. His curiosity drove his desire to find out what it was, information that it may not have been appropriate for a PM to have.
For example, he demanded a list of the names and postings of all ASIS agents; information no Minister or PM should ask for, particularly considering that this information is highly classified and could easily leak from the PM's office.
disamjisa 1 year ago
@disamjisa Yes, there are somethings in the US national interest that he did not need to know about. But he was out PM, much loved and admired by millions of Australians, and the systematic destruction of his government and his reputation was a national disgrace, given the extraordinary contribution he made under fire. Those enduring contribution still ring in our ears. What might he have achieved if allowed to govern without the obstruction by those who never accepted his mandate?
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski (Reply part 1) Hey Svend, I feel we are actually closer in our views than I initially thought. I wish that Whitlam had taken it a little slower, been more cautious, been more discreet about the issues with the US alliance, been more incremental.
The CIA was not being a good ally, recruiting high political figures as sources and agents (Doug Anthony, John Kerr etc), and their involvement in probably criminal activity with Nugen-Hand etc, not the action of a good friend.
disamjisa 1 year ago
@disamjisa Yes. It is all in the public domain for those wanting to find it. You show the good sense in mentioning those who are no longer with us.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski (reply part 2) I do feel that the Whitlam government made serious mistakes by conflating the CIA's probable involvement in serious criminal offences and possibly subversive activities dealing with public officials, with US-AUS treaties and bases like Pine Gap. The US military has always been far more friendly and respectful to us. The US naturally held back some information from us, the sort they hold back from their own high officials who don't have a "need to know" clearance
disamjisa 1 year ago
@disamjisa In the current age of Amercian Empire, obediance is expected from vassal states, and the wrath of the sword will be visited upon those nations attempting to exercise independence deemed inimical to America's interest. The election circuses that come to town every four years or so are about electronic theatre. Policies are auctioned off, talking heads snarl and joke, opinon polls are recited like the daily weather, promises are made, then everyone goes home to have a sleep.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski (Reply part 3) Finally, I just want to re-iterate. This was not a CIA coup. There were probably a dozen central players; Fraser, Kerr, a source inside the Whitlam cabinet, and a handful or so of senior public servants and Defence Chiefs, and two or three retired but influential and trusted former government officials, military officers, and a high court judge.
disamjisa 1 year ago
@disamjisa Those few defining moment in Australian Politics, such as the election of Whitlam, rattle through our lives like an earthquake. They redefine everything. Look at this current circus. An auction, where both sides trade on our deepest fears to convince us who not to vote for. It's all there: xenophobia, insecurity about jobs, fear about ageing in penury, exaggerated claims about economic collapse, the shrinking pie, and so on.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@Svendsn (Reply part 4) All of the dozen or so individuals had their connections and consultations with other people. I suspect the CIA lobbied hard to push this forward. But don't believe the lie that seems to have been pushed around the it was a CIA coup.
Except for the opportunistic Fraser and the clearly cretinous GG, all these highly accomplished and patriotic Australians understood the gravity of what they were considering and came to their decision with great difficulty and inner turmoil
disamjisa 1 year ago
@disamjisa I don't think the people you mention were in any sense evil, even John Kerr. But I have no doubt, having read deeply into this over the years, that they were all participants in a coup to unseat the legitimate government of this country. It was not just down to Kerr, but was a concerted campaign reaching back to the very early days of the first term. The blocking of supply, the sacking of Gough, and the appoibntment of Fraser were the culmination.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski I agree. My mother's grandfather deeply opposed our withdrawal from Vietnam, and used his influence to undermine the Whitlam government, which I disagree with.
But the removal of a PM who had the confidence of the House, these men knew this was drastic, it troubled them deeply, but they felt they had no choice. They genuinely believed they had to take this drastic action, not from partisanship, but profound (if misguided) patriotism and alarm at the actions of the government.
disamjisa 1 year ago
MIsplaced patriotism is not sufficient excuse to absolve who promoted and prosecuted that phoney intervention, as it was called. I reflect on the extraordinary courage Daniel Elsberg need to muster to expose the many years of deceit foisted upon the American people and their allies. Or the courage of Dr King, JFK and Bobby Kennedy, in risking all to end that fiasco. Have you read James Douglas brilliant if at times meandering analysis "JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters"?
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@disamjisa It just goes to show that some Australians are utter fools and that the country is hopelessly rightwing and fascist.
The Australian intelligence agencies were virtual franchises of the CIA in the 1970's and the US has a fairly extensive relationship with Aussie intel agencies during those years.
The Whitlam Coup-as I call it-came about because Whitlam treated Australia as a seperate nation and not the bitch of the US or the UK. He paid a price for that.
MultiSmartass1 1 year ago
@MultiSmartass1 Yes, he was profoundly naive if he thought that he could pursue an independent foreign policy.
When it comes to intelligence, military and foreign relations, we are the bitch of whoever is the pre-eminent power. That is what happens when you are a country the size that we are, out on the edge of the world surrounded by people with entirely different values and culture than ourselves.
Its called dealing with reality, rather than living in fantasy land.
disamjisa 1 year ago
@disamjisa White Australians are still naive. They don't realize that they were and still are a colonized people. They think only brown people are colonized. Bullshit.
Australia was largely a protectorate of the British Navy and a colonial possession then after WWII came under the American orbit.
In fact, they are trying be more like the US than the UK ever could.
Australians need to wake up. If it means learning the lessons of history, so be it.
MultiSmartass1 1 year ago
@MultiSmartass1 I agree. Anyone who thinks that our contribution to Vietnam, Desert Storm, Iraq and Afghanistan is anything other than a blood tribute in exchange for the protection of the Anglo-American empire is profoundly naive.
Its not an ideal position to be in a subordinate and peripheral position in "the empire", out here on the antipodes, its simply the geopolitical reality. The men who did over Whitlam understood this, and understood we could not and cannot go it alone.
disamjisa 1 year ago
@disamjisa Australians are white cannon fodder. They have been since Gallipoli and I bet serious money that Aussies still don't know the truth about that masacre.
The festering dead, the rotting corpses lying in feces and various fluids.
Australians have been part of the American Empire since the end of World War II and have paid the price in losing sons to wars they didn't start and shouldn't have been a part of it.
You people need to wake up.
MultiSmartass1 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski I guess I feel it is important to dispel the notion that this was a sinister plot; Kerr was too stupid to be evil. The men around him did conspire to bring down the government, but they were not James Bond villains, they were men (most had fought in the Second World War) who had deep reservations about the direction of the country.
Their actions weren't appropriate, I agree, but from loyalty to my own family, I feel obliged to put the point of view one person who was there.
disamjisa 1 year ago
@disamjisa I am not well placed to judge the motives of those involved in the coup, and over the years I have developed a greater respect for Malcolm Fraser, who expresses a genuine concern for victims of human rights abuses. Kerr was not a stupid man. He was former Chief Justice of the NSW Supreme Court, and sought the counsel of Sir Garfield Barwick, Chief Justice, before he sacked Gough. Kerr, who's connections with CIA funded bodies is well known, clearly understood the implications.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski I agree about Kerr's connections to the CIA, I think it was through some front-group publication, part of some "cultural congress" that was clearly an organ of western foreign policy. The fact that he had personal and professional connections to a foreign intelligence agency was not unusual for Australians who were involved in World War II in command or intelligence positions.
disamjisa 1 year ago
@disamjisa Kerr was heavily involved with Law Asia, operated by Association for Cultural Freedom, a CIA front. That body also established Quadrant magazine.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski (reply part 2) Most of the people involved were old boys from Fort Street and Cranbrook, and most of them fought in the war. Most of them came from well established New South Wales families (Fraser excepted, a Melbournian), and most of them knew each other personally as well as professionally.
Among this influential milieu, the view was formed quite independently that Whitlam was undermining Australian national security and international standing.
disamjisa 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski (reply part 3) As I mentioned above, many of these people, including my own forbear, were profoundly anti-communist and pro-American because of their personal experience fighting alongside Americans in the Pacific, and from involvement in Malaya and Indonesia.
The people who surrounded and urged Kerr to act did so for logical, if not entirely moral reasons. And I hasten to add again, for patriotic reasons, not because they got a call from someone at the CIA telling them to.
disamjisa 1 year ago
@disamjisa That's interesting. Attitudes to communism changed during the war. The Soviet Union was an ally and essential to victory. I remember reading Fletcher Prouty's account of how, just after the Japanese sued for peace in May 1945, he asked Kermit Roosevelt what the US would be doing with all the bombs after the war ended. He wrote that Roosevelt replied that they would be used in Vietnam and Korea to contain the spread of communism, two years before the formation of the CIA.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
@SvendBosanvovski (reply part 3) The Americans (and to a lesser extent the British) complained bitterly about Whitlam to Australians who were more or less in a position to do something about it. But it was not a foreign coup, as salacious, appealing and exculpatory as that explanation may be.
disamjisa 1 year ago
@disamjisa You may be right. Murdoch, Doug Anthony, and all those other major players you mention carry the principal burden of responsibilty. But could they have done it without Marshall Green, Ted Shackley and other shady operatives? The arrival of bagman Khemlani and Murdoch willingness to whip up hysteria during the capital strike had all the marking of CIA psychops. Sure they didn't like Gough. They weren't expected to. They wrecked his government and denied the people their choice.
SvendBosanvovski 1 year ago
fucking liar caught again time waster tex lucky for you i like pounding your fat shrek skull with your lies
why760nitro 2 years ago
tex wahtever do you fuck your mum navy slut style
why760nitro 2 years ago
makes absolutely no fucking sense.
just like always with you.
2 dup accounts suspended thanks to yours truly and i'm working on your other two as well.
enjoy oblivion
WonderWombat8 3 years ago
karl TEXSHREK your mum AKA the world famous AUSSIE cum sponge .measured her pay by how many baby bottles of ejaculation she could wipe out of here crotch
guess who got the proceeds waste not want not
why760nitro 2 years ago
enjoy oblivion ??? owned to the power of infinity
hahahah pathetic streak world record
ped0nuge
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why760nitro 2 years ago
WINSHITSLAM
MervynVogt 2 years ago
karl is back with his rant OY
why760nitro 2 years ago
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FuCk YoU, YoU PiEcE Of ShIt!
doctorwhoUKpilot 2 years ago
tic toc tic toc , did you think i was kidding . obviously ,, NITRO WINS the texas barb wire THUNDERDOME match against the troll king karl j vogt
ahh victory is sweet have some tea
why760nitro 2 years ago
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well check who's doing all the trolling for a strart (dhansingbear/fucktexwhatever/y760nitro/acomsrazor for a start).
and my second point is you have a clip up about the whitlam dismissal and the CIA involvement....what do you expect is going to happen? OF COURSE the left and the right are going to hook into each other and have a go.
WonderWombat8 3 years ago
your head has no brain in it.
WonderWombat8 3 years ago
Act your age Whitlam and die.
antifarleft 3 years ago
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my what a productive and sensible thing to say.
i'd prefer malfunction fraser did us a favour and karked.
WonderWombat8 3 years ago
hmmm. Yes, he was a right wing labour hack but
even Hollywood can acknowledge this story, they made a movie about it. Yet we cant. See "The Falcon and the Snowman" with Sean Penn, or read about "Nugan Hand" a dodgy Australian bank that went bankrupt in the 80's and its CIA director. Go to Parliamentary Hansard in the mid-1970s and look in the index under "CIA Intellegence Activities in Australia" or find the Ted Shackley Memo. The CIA screwed with our government to protect its listening bases.
dunemessiah36 3 years ago
the world is america's bitch.
and it wonders why eventually someone attacks it!
WonderWombat8 3 years ago
Whitlam was a loser/ dreamer typical labor excuse makers.
camerondavo 3 years ago
Beats being a liberal american suck hole
lapalad 3 years ago 2
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malcolm was a sooky little selfish opportunist (who couldn't hang on to his pants and had a little cry when he lost office).
malfunction was so popular the badge "tammy's got one..mal IS one" sold like hotcakes.
WonderWombat8 3 years ago
lol @ "tammy's got one..mal IS one"
Keruaran 2 years ago