I actually expected Koopman to play this very quickly. Very disappointed, like most of his interpretations will leave you feeling. Listen to Kay Johanssen's playing and you will see the difference between someone who is aware and someone who is not.
@gr0mithtimon "Is the ornamentation in the manuscript?" Yes. In the Peter's Edition, from which I memorized 577, their fugue subject includes a mordent, grace notes and trill at it's conclusion. These are a wonderful part of the subject and I continue them throughouthe work.
Disappointing when this joyous fugue begins withem and later they are omitted. The inconsistency of "Now you hear them- now you don't." is not important. They are a refreshing part of the subject which you later miss.
The ornaments in that edition are of no special significance unless they where taken from the original manuscript. Bach often omits ornaments, modern edditors add it as an aid to students. Obviously, you will find ornamentation different from the edition you have memorized strange-sounding, but that is no argument. Koopman is a prominent expert in the performance of Bach on organ, and he does what was expected from any organist in the Baroque-era; he ornaments.
@gr0mithtimon I assume the Peter's Edition takes the ornaments from Bach's manuscript.
Ton's performance here is disappointingly slow and without care.
His grace notes before the pedal comes in are nice, (am I the only other playing them?) buthen he does not play them again - meaning no consistency.(that I recall - I don't wanto listen again to this mediocre performance.)
The unexpected surprises of "strange-sounding" ornamentation are fun, but he leaves out so many nice ones.
Too slow! I expected Ton to play too fast. Why no mordent at :56 ? But he DOES the grace notes! No pedal mordent at 1:11? Wish he had trilled more at 1:59. He played it perfunctorily. It should be emphasized. Surprise! LIKED THE MORDENT HE DID AT 2:10! AND 2:33! AND 2:49! AND THE GRACE NOTES! Why no mordent and grace notes at 3:10? Can hardly hear the pedal. The pedal line should be just as prominent as any line in the manuals. Still nice to here Ton's version.
@robertgift; Ton Koopmans' performance is neither bad, nor the greatest. But Ton Koopman is a far more ecclesiastical and well composed organist, rather than E. Power Biggs' (which in my opinion; Biggs' "kills" organ compositions, specifically of those of Bach). Ton Koopman in my opinion; gives these pieces a sort of luster, and eccentric, bold flavor that many organists (specifically Bach enthusiasts), lack when playing Master Bach's beautiful compositions.
@poopingeneral Glad Biggs is less ecclesiastical. All religions are man-made myth, fairytales, superstition and ridiculous ritual.
Being slow, this lessens the excitement and exuberance of this wonderful work. It lacks the wonderful ornaments, which add so much sparkle and pizzazz. Koopman often breaks notes - as though he had not "fingered it out".
Except for phrasing and articulation, such brokenotes disrupt beautiful musical lines.
I "finger out" most works as I learn and practice them.
That way, I can smoothly connect notes having fingers available and in position to play the next notes without breaks. Koopman often sounds as though he must lift a finger and place it on the next note, which creates an audible break. Same with his broken pedal notes. Instead of a smooth legato line, he sounds like lifting foot and placing it on next note.
@robertgift The baroque playing style is predominantly detached and uses quick movement of fingers/feet around rather than connecting them; heels are rarely or never used in the pedal, and finger substitutions are also rare; rather, the hand is moved into a new position to continue playing, and this detachment is intentional. Koopman is trying to achieve authentic playing rather than using modern technique.
@MrJacksonberry I'd much rather the notes be connected forming wonderful legato musical lines. Then interesting articulation and phrasing can be accomplished and enjoyed.
Pleasing my "natural ear" is more important than baroque's obsolete, defective technique where notes which should be connected fail to be connected.
Yes, it is more difficult to substitute fingers and to plan ahead and have fingers in position to continue musical lines unbroken. But it is wortheffort.
@robertgift It is more about playing in an authentic manner (on close to authentic organs) rather than simply pleasing the ear; Koopman tries to play the piece how Bach intended it to be played. The piece can still be enjoyed this way, but I also feel sometimes that modern technique sounds better, and is actually easier than, playing in a baroque style. I wouldn't call the technique defective, but I would not criticize Koopman's choice of playing style. It is more prevalent than you think.
@MrJacksonberry It IS about pleasing the ear. "Notes unconnected do not a musical line make". If notes are disconnected, separated, lines broken - that technique IS deficient.
Perhaps Koopman is purposely playing in an authentic, obsolete, inferior manner. I have played modern "baroque" organs with authentic unsteady wind. Horrible.
Also played a period piano. Horrible sound. So glad it evolved to the beautiful instruments we have today. Beethoven would have been much pleased.
@poopingeneral, I respect that you like Koopman...I don't, as he makes me feel like I'm being crushed emotionally into a void when I hear him play...but I agree with you about Biggs. He butchers Bach and makes all kind of irritating, nonsensical and abrupt changes while saying nothing musically. It's pure torture to listen to him play Bach.
I agree with you about the organ being the king of the instruments. I'm a pianist, and the organ is the one instrument I consider superior.
I actually expected Koopman to play this very quickly. Very disappointed, like most of his interpretations will leave you feeling. Listen to Kay Johanssen's playing and you will see the difference between someone who is aware and someone who is not.
NimbleTurtle13 6 months ago
nowadays he plays it a lot of faster???
paranormaalutrecht 9 months ago
Hey, just noticed that Koopman plays a mordent at 2:33 and 2:49, grace notes at 2:50! (Thought only I performed those! Good for Koopman!)
But earlier he does not do the ornament at :56. No mordent in the pedal at 1:11. Nor at 1:36
No pedal mordent at 3:28. Such inconsistancy.
robertgift 1 year ago
@robertgift
Is the ornamentation in the manuscript? As you surely know, Baroque organists added their own ornamentation (often on the fly).
gr0mithtimon 4 months ago in playlist J. S. Bach - Fantasias, Preludes & Fugues for Organ
@gr0mithtimon "Is the ornamentation in the manuscript?" Yes. In the Peter's Edition, from which I memorized 577, their fugue subject includes a mordent, grace notes and trill at it's conclusion. These are a wonderful part of the subject and I continue them throughouthe work.
Disappointing when this joyous fugue begins withem and later they are omitted. The inconsistency of "Now you hear them- now you don't." is not important. They are a refreshing part of the subject which you later miss.
robertgift 4 months ago
@robertgift
The ornaments in that edition are of no special significance unless they where taken from the original manuscript. Bach often omits ornaments, modern edditors add it as an aid to students. Obviously, you will find ornamentation different from the edition you have memorized strange-sounding, but that is no argument. Koopman is a prominent expert in the performance of Bach on organ, and he does what was expected from any organist in the Baroque-era; he ornaments.
gr0mithtimon 4 months ago
@gr0mithtimon I assume the Peter's Edition takes the ornaments from Bach's manuscript.
Ton's performance here is disappointingly slow and without care.
His grace notes before the pedal comes in are nice, (am I the only other playing them?) buthen he does not play them again - meaning no consistency.(that I recall - I don't wanto listen again to this mediocre performance.)
The unexpected surprises of "strange-sounding" ornamentation are fun, but he leaves out so many nice ones.
Too difficult?
robertgift 4 months ago
Straordinario come sempre.
micangess 2 years ago
robertgift 2 years ago
@robertgift
Agreed word for word.
I would have expected to hear this with a light German plenum.
But when i listen closely, i appreciate his registration (pedal needed some stronger fundamental or perhaps a light reed)
falaqdad15 2 years ago
@robertgift everyone's a critic right?
poopingeneral 1 year ago
poop- "(E)veryone's a critic(,) right?"
Not that I know.
But I write what I think, both bad and good!
Wish I could upload my old cassette recordings for critique.
Many have borrowed them and they have disappeared. (I have already critiqued them.)
After this lackluster performance, I must listen to Biggs' recording to cleanse my ears and soul.
robertgift 1 year ago
@robertgift; Ton Koopmans' performance is neither bad, nor the greatest. But Ton Koopman is a far more ecclesiastical and well composed organist, rather than E. Power Biggs' (which in my opinion; Biggs' "kills" organ compositions, specifically of those of Bach). Ton Koopman in my opinion; gives these pieces a sort of luster, and eccentric, bold flavor that many organists (specifically Bach enthusiasts), lack when playing Master Bach's beautiful compositions.
Long live the King of instruments!
poopingeneral 1 year ago
@poopingeneral Glad Biggs is less ecclesiastical. All religions are man-made myth, fairytales, superstition and ridiculous ritual.
Being slow, this lessens the excitement and exuberance of this wonderful work. It lacks the wonderful ornaments, which add so much sparkle and pizzazz. Koopman often breaks notes - as though he had not "fingered it out".
Except for phrasing and articulation, such brokenotes disrupt beautiful musical lines.
robertgift 1 year ago
I "finger out" most works as I learn and practice them.
That way, I can smoothly connect notes having fingers available and in position to play the next notes without breaks. Koopman often sounds as though he must lift a finger and place it on the next note, which creates an audible break. Same with his broken pedal notes. Instead of a smooth legato line, he sounds like lifting foot and placing it on next note.
robertgift 1 year ago
@robertgift The baroque playing style is predominantly detached and uses quick movement of fingers/feet around rather than connecting them; heels are rarely or never used in the pedal, and finger substitutions are also rare; rather, the hand is moved into a new position to continue playing, and this detachment is intentional. Koopman is trying to achieve authentic playing rather than using modern technique.
MrJacksonberry 1 year ago
@MrJacksonberry I'd much rather the notes be connected forming wonderful legato musical lines. Then interesting articulation and phrasing can be accomplished and enjoyed.
Pleasing my "natural ear" is more important than baroque's obsolete, defective technique where notes which should be connected fail to be connected.
Yes, it is more difficult to substitute fingers and to plan ahead and have fingers in position to continue musical lines unbroken. But it is wortheffort.
robertgift 1 year ago
@robertgift It is more about playing in an authentic manner (on close to authentic organs) rather than simply pleasing the ear; Koopman tries to play the piece how Bach intended it to be played. The piece can still be enjoyed this way, but I also feel sometimes that modern technique sounds better, and is actually easier than, playing in a baroque style. I wouldn't call the technique defective, but I would not criticize Koopman's choice of playing style. It is more prevalent than you think.
MrJacksonberry 1 year ago
@MrJacksonberry It IS about pleasing the ear. "Notes unconnected do not a musical line make". If notes are disconnected, separated, lines broken - that technique IS deficient.
Perhaps Koopman is purposely playing in an authentic, obsolete, inferior manner. I have played modern "baroque" organs with authentic unsteady wind. Horrible.
Also played a period piano. Horrible sound. So glad it evolved to the beautiful instruments we have today. Beethoven would have been much pleased.
robertgift 1 year ago
@robertgift
"What pleases me is good and right, and that which pleases me not is deficient" thought the small man.
gr0mithtimon 4 months ago in playlist J. S. Bach - Fantasias, Preludes & Fugues for Organ
@poopingeneral, I respect that you like Koopman...I don't, as he makes me feel like I'm being crushed emotionally into a void when I hear him play...but I agree with you about Biggs. He butchers Bach and makes all kind of irritating, nonsensical and abrupt changes while saying nothing musically. It's pure torture to listen to him play Bach.
I agree with you about the organ being the king of the instruments. I'm a pianist, and the organ is the one instrument I consider superior.
KhagarBalugrak 1 year ago