@Jyobaloria Amen, you are right. As a Calvinist myself I fully agree. However, I would contend that the doctrines of Reformed Soteriology (Calvinism) is consistent with the Word of God. Any one who thinks that God makes people evil so as to send them to hell (Rom 9:22) is plain mistaken. We hold that man is dead in sin (Eph 2:1, Rom 5:12-14) therefore, we send ourselves to Hell. God would be completely just and good to condemn us all. However, for His own glory He decided to save some.
Rom 9:22 doesn't say they're going to hell--this is you imposing your views into the text. It's about nations, Jew vs. Gentile. Read the entire argument Paul is making in the book of Romans and it sticks out like a sore thumb the Jews didn't understand how the Gentiles were being added into the covenant. Because they thought the promise was only made to the Jewish descendants of Abraham(from Gen 13:15)--yet it really was SEED---Christ, whom unites both Jew and Gentile.
@droptozro rom;9 is not about nations ! because from the begining of the chapter tells how paul wishes he was accursed for the sake of his bretheren! than he goes on to say not every one is a jew but only those on the inside who were chosen by GOD through Isaac and thats how he ends up with jacob and essau though being from the same father and mother only one was loved and elected
"Rom 9 not about nations" "...jacob and esau, thought being from same father and mother, only one was loved and elected"
Yes to bring about the Messiah, you quote the verse that most easily refutes you also. Do any of you actually look UP what Paul's speaking about and quoting from the OT? These aren't just vacuum verses, he expected his audience to know what he was talking about.
Continued, Romans 9:12 from the old testament is Genesis 25:23
23 And the LORD said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.”
Then, read Romans 9:13--this is a quote from Malachi 1:2-3, written HUNDREDS of years after Jacob and Esau's death. “ Yet Jacob I have loved; 3 But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage
@droptozro this is not the only place in scripture were the old testament is quoted to a different meaning you cannot take the verse out of context of what the chapter is talking about !! yes in malachi the prophet is talking about 2 nations but the CONTEXT of rom 9 is about individuals otherwise the whole argument about ishmael and isaac and rebecca falls and the begining of the chapter would make no sence ""context context context"""
Yes Malachi and Genesis are both about nations, I gave you the quotes from both parts in Romans 9. You would like the proof of Isaac and Ismael now also?
Go to Galatians 4, read all. See what Paul states, these two children represent the two covenants--one of the promise(free) and one of the flesh(bondage). Representing true Israelites circumsized at heart(Christians, including Gentiles) versus fleshly Israelites(Jews, circumsized in flesh). Jews and Gentiles, nations!
@droptozro galatians is not talking about the same subject as romans ch;9 you are taking things out of cotext !!! again "" but before they had done anything good or bad so that GOD porpouse in election might stand""ELECTION ELECTION
...so I agree, "context context context" Calvinists don't have it at all--you're ripping out this chapter from both its book context, other Scriptures to interpret it properly, and probably the least but most ignored--the HISTORICAL context. Christian Jews did not understand how Gentiles were being added to the covenant, thinking along the Mosaic law--yet Paul had to correct them that it was the Abrahamic covenant that they were being added in...context is very important.
@droptozro but in the context or rom;9 has nothing to do with gentiles being drafted the way the chapter starts is paul asking why are not all jews saved ? and he adds that GODS promisses have not failed but that there is an election even the egyptian king was elected to a porpouseand he wasn't even a jew !!also later in the ch; it talks about vessels fitted for wrath and some for mercy there is no way your points make any sense you are taking thing out of context
"Paul is asking why are not all Jews saved?" EXACTLY! You don't understand this issue. Go read Genesis 13:15 and then compare to Galatians 3:15-29, special attention to Paul's correction of Jewish misunderstanding. What did the Pharisees often say? John 8:33. Jews thought it was every physical descendant of Abraham who would inherit the Kingdom of God--so that would mean all Jews would be saved. Yet Paul has to correct their misunderstanding and translation from Genesis
All Jews are not saved because they're still in bondage to the law(Mosaic) and need to be set free seeing that the promise was made to Abraham and the only way to INHERIT the Kingdom is through Christ(Gal 3/4). The election has to do with Christ(who was elect by the way, see Matthew 12:18, compare it with Isaiah 42:1) in which He is the ONLY way to gain salvation because the promise was made to Abraham and his Seed(Christ). We are co-elect with Him. Also, elect doesn't...
@droptozro you are really taking these verses out of context it is plain to see that what the bible says about the natural man not being able to undestand the things of GOD its being demonstrated by you lol!rom ch;11 says they are in bondage because GOD gave them a spirit of stupor but no you think man has free will and that is your idol pride ! man has no freewill even without going to the bible which teaches that plainly common sense can tell you that there is no freewil humanist!!
@patriotsfan1379 They were blinded because they sought it by the law, sought it not by faith. Again Romans 11, do you NOT look up what Paul's quoting... look up Deut 29:4 and Isaiah 29:10---why does God say He gave them this spirit? DISOBEDIENCE.
"but no you think man has free will" --in your view, if I have no free will, then God predestined me to think this way--who are you to reply to God o'man? Are you disagreeing with His will? In fact you prove we have a free will by your words.
@droptozro no you are right!! at least about that !! and unless GOD decides to have mercy on you, you cannot see the truth JESUS said unles a man is born again he cannot enter let alone see the kingdom!! you have taken every passage out of context !! you think you are the captain of your ship master of your destiny hahahaha you think you can come when ever you want but salvation is of the LORD to give to whom HE pleases JESUS said no 1 can come to me unles the father draws him
@droptozro they sought it that way because the unregenerate man cannot please GOD faith true faith its GOD given !!! not man made and without faith it is impossible to please GOD!!!
I see so many man's doctrines and so many proof-texts. You've been explained the truth patiently, you've rejected it--continue in your semi-Gnostic heresies blindly. Hopefully you'll seek the truth one day. God bless
@droptozro you have brought passages and or verses that have nothing to do with rom;ch;9 to try to make them fit into your humanist ideas you bring them because it seems as if they are but really are not even when given evidence in exodus ch;4 that it was GOD the first cause in pharoh's hardening youignored it!! "" for divitions must come among you so that people can see those who are aproved""
@patriotsfan1379 ...doesn't mean what you're implying on it. I gave you one instance, it means "choice" as in precious or "beloved" as I gave you from the Isaiah 42:1 parallel. Don't impose modern definitions, use Scriptural ones. If you don't understand the last 2 messages I gave you, you won't understand Romans, guaranteed.
Pharaoh--yes, representing Gentiles--Paul continues his argument, Do you read Exodus 9 which it comes from? God says it is Pharaoh's fault in verse 18, and 20
@droptozro I see your problem you are an enlightened humanist!!from ch4 in exodus the first instance it is GOD who hardens phoroh's hart he is a secondary cause or effect!! the jews are not saved because they have been hardened by GOD rom 11jeremiah 18 has nothing to do with the vessels""fitted" for destruction neither does 2 timmothy 2 ;20 since in that chapter he is talking to believers but in rom; there is a distinction between vessel of mercy and of wrath you can fool someone else but not me
@patriotsfan1379 You're just hardened to the truth too, you're not seeking it. Amazing you call another prideful yet you give you no proper explanation of the Scripture in and of itself and I give you context, other Scripture, OT quotes, and history--and you tell me I've still got it wrong and you've got nothing contextual to back up your assertions. Who's prideful? You, you stand alone I give you Scripture to show context. You also don't understand Romans 11 being about Jew/Gentile.
@patriotsfan1379 So Moses representing Jews and Pharaoh represents the Gentiles, God was longsuffering with the Jews---so can He also be with the Gentiles by adding them into the covenant through Christ. This was the mystery revealed! Jew and Gentile uniting in Christ! The Jews thought they were the special people, so before they could complain that God was having mercy on others--Paul stopped their mouths in Rom 9:18.
You also mention Rom 9:21.. but did you look at the OT again?
@patriotsfan1379 Look at Jeremiah 18:6--Potter and clay, but look what happened... the Jews marred themselves in God's hand, nations again!
Just to cover both sides, you still may think it's individuals with the potter/clay--so look at 2 Tim 2:20-22, what does this passage say? Who's responsibility is it to be a proper vessel? "If anyone cleanses himself..."
My points make complete sense with the rest of the Scripture, you're vacuuming this text--read the rest Rom 9:25-33. Jews and Gentiles!
In your view also, God predestined that person to go to hell and be in their sins. That's not just.. how backwards are you? It's like me pushing Bob into Kim and then Kim turns around and blames Bob. Is it Bob's fault he fell into her? No. It's my fault, if I chose to push Bob into Kim, my fault.
It's like kicking a dog off of a roof and telling it to fly and then when it falls and dies--sending it to hell, that's the Calvinist god, the man who kicked the dog.
@droptozro why is it not just? because you say so!!! hahahahahah what a fool you are and a pridefullone at that do you think for 1 moment that GOD sits in heaven asking whether or not to act because HE might be percieved as unjust??? hahahah what a fool
because there is NO other name under heaven in which men must be saved. Acts 4:12. Also Paul warns Timothy in 1 Tim. 3-7 i will emphasize 6 and 7. "For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to FRUITLESS discussion, 7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they makeconfident assersitions." Does this discussion help us love God more? All have sinned thank God he chose me to be conformed to the
If I use this mans word i will tell you that do let the word of God speak for itself. Read Eph. 1:1-2:8 and overemphasize ever HIm,His, or Jesus Christ. I would also say that if anyone teaches anything different from 1 Cor. 15:1-4 he/she is to be accursed Gal. 1:6-9. also our prayers do not change God Acts 2:23 predetermined and foreknowledge of God. This is one concept. He knew and determined its incredible but my friend regardless of clavanism ans arminism let us look to Christ
I would much rather trust John Piper and John MacArthur and RC Sproul for spiritual insight that Pastor Rokser who put down Calvinists with no scripture to back him up.
To say Martin Luther was a Calvinist reveals a fundamental ignorance of history and Christian theology. 'Calvinism' began as an insult against those held to a Biblical based doctrine. Calvinism is growing because congregations are hungering to grow in faith and understanding of the Scriptures. Unfortunately many preachers are not up to the job and preach a discordant set of effectual 'sound-bites' to substitute for a basic lack of theological training.
In fact, both were, spirtually I mean, "updated romanists".
Christ is not like Calvin nor Luther. Christ is The Lord, those ones are NOT.
The LOVE of GOD is higher then the human thoughts of justice. Both (Calvin, Luther - and many others) got their own convictions from one roman/greek/phylosophy "god" that never listen, only comands everything..
The deep spirituality and love of Christ is evident in this pastor. He, like many Biblicists, expects God to act in the world. He reads the Bible. Most who resist modern Calvinism do so gently and respectfully, as this pastor does. Surely God is grieved at the manner in which this debate is conducted, at the proud expressions of righteous contempt so easily put up. Let us treat each other as brothers and have a discussion in which each party recognizes the indwelling Spirit in the other.
@apprentice You need to recognize that the A & C camps are opposite belief systems & are irreconcilable - there can be no genuine fellowship. Calviinists use the same terms but like all cults, they pour totally different meanings into them - Justification, Sanctification, Election, Free Will, Sovereignty, Grace, etc are all defined differently than mainstream Christianity. They have a different gospel & claim that God creates helpless people only to cast into hell - it's heretical & blasphemous
I think if you understand that the Gospel is the power of God unto the salvation of men by faith in Jesus Christ & repentance, it doesn't matter if you're Calvanist or Armenian. What matters is that you're BIBLICAL. Oh, I'm a monergist BTW because of Romans. Does that mean I'm going to hell? Preach the gospel, not CvsA bigotry.
@joejumps You obviously don't understand that Calvinism & Arminianism are irreconcilable belief systems - there can be no genuine fellowship between the adherents. Calvinism has a different gospel ("Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you") & blasphemously proclaims that God creates helpless people for the sole purpose of casting them into hell in order to glofiy himself. By YOUR OWN standards ie, being "biblical" & "preaching the gospel" Calvinism stands condemned for doing neither one.
@JackMWolfe Your OPEN THEISM has caused your brain to deteriorate beyond man's help,if you come to the TRUE GOSPEL you'll have to do it like everyone else,through the power of God alone.
@CBALLEN The TRUE gospel is in Acts17:29 "Since then we are God's offspring... Such former ages of ignorance God, it is true, ignored & allowed to pass unnoticed; but now He charges ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE to repent" but your gospel is "Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you" & the REAL God is a loving heavenly Father who desires that no one perish, but yours is a tyrant who creates people only to cast them into hell in order to glorify himself. You're a demented, lying, blasphemous reprobate.
@JackMWolfe Wow, I guess I probably don't understand it enough, but what you described sounds like hyper Calvinism. I don't really know what I am. I just know I believe the Bible and I think that's what matters. I subscribe to monergism because salvation is only & entirely from God, yet man has the responsibility to respond. God doesn't create people for the sole purpose of hell. That's why man is responsible to respond to His Gospel in repentance & faith.
@joejumps Yes, if you think Calvinism is the least bit orthodox, you haven't studied their beliefs. Their Total Depravity pillar is the only doctrine that even comes close but it isn't 100% correct either. Calvinists play lots of word games trying to make their aberrant doctrines appear mainstream for instance, many claim to believe in free will but they mean that God irresistibly changes some hearts so they "freely" choose Christ, while leaving the rest to "freely" sin until He destroys them.
@JackMWolfe Yeah, that's something I've always disagreed with but I know some Calvanists who would disagree with that, too. I think God knows if we're going to turn to Christ or not, and to my understanding and belief, God doesn't decide what we'll do before time...He just knows. So if both C&A are wrong, what do you call someone who is just plain ole "Biblical"? :)
@joejumps We disagree about God's foreknowledge otherwise everything you've expressed here is biblical, therefore you're an Arminian. As Spurgeon once said "I started out an Arminian like everyone else" Calvinists become so by being taught how to change the scriptures to mean the opposite - DOZENS of verses which use inclusive terms about salvation such as "all, every, us, everyone, our, the world, everybody, whosoever,etc" are all changed to mean "a few" or "some". Calvin was a false prophet.
@joejumps Hyper-Calvinists are simply those who are upfront & honest about their beliefs & have stopped trying to hide them behind a thin veneer of orthodoxy like most Calvinists do. They've stopped apologizing for their elitist doctrines, exclusive gospel, & the tyrannical "god" they worship - they expect to be greatly rewarded for unashamedly accosting everyone with the idea that God has sovereignly chosen some for heaven, others for hell - & neither group has any choice whatsover about it.
Many will say in that day" Lord ,Lord,did I not choose you when I could have thwarted your will and didn't I keep my eternal life myself when I could have turned and changed my mind and went back to my old ways"? Then Jesus will say,"Depart,I never knew you".So it's not who you think you know but who knows you.You don't know the real Lord,but one who you have power over,you have molded the god you believe in yourself.
@CBALLEN "Many will say in that day" Lord ,Lord,did I not choose you when I could have thwarted your will and didn't I keep my eternal life myself when I could have turned and changed my mind and went back to my old ways"? Then Jesus will say,"Depart,I never knew you".
Now you're putting your unholy, condemned gibberish DIRECTLY into Christ's mouth! Most don't realize that the many changes that Calvinists make to God's word is a form of false prophecy - putting false words into God's mouth.
@JackMWolfe These who Jesus was speaking to were telling Jesus of the things that they did to deserve salvation,this sounds just like what you would do,I CHOSE YOU,I KEPT MYSELF SAVED,I WAS THE ULTIMATE DECIDER OF MY OWN SALVATION,same thing just different words.Belief in the real Christ is the confirmation that one has been BORN AGAIN by GOD,not the means of salvation.
@CBALLEN You put false words into Christ's mouth & you just did the same with me - you do this with EVERYONE who rebukes & refutes your demonic doctrines. You're a false prophet by putting words into God's mouth that He never spoke & a false accuser for putting words into mine that I've never said. You continue to demonstrate that you're a blasphemer of God, His word, & the Holy Spirit - you can NEVER return to the truth, you're caught in an eternal trespass.
@CBALLEN You're a confirmed apostate, now standing under the curse of Gal1:7-9 for preaching a different gospel & for promoting heresy by every deceptive means possible. Peter warns of you in 2Pet2:1, "But also in those days there arose false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among yourselves, who will subtly & stealthily introduce heretical doctrines, even denying & disowning the Master Who bought them" Your gospel is condemned & your "god" is a Satanic counterfeit
ALL had to be used to clarify Jesus died for Jews and Gentiles, because salvation was only for the Jews in the Old Testament,with few exceptions,so once people understand this the Bible makes much more sense.IfJesus died for the sins of ALL men,then ALL men would be saved,but this is not the case at all.You can't understand this Jack because you are UNABLE.
@CBALLEN "If Jesus died for the sins of ALL men,then ALL men would be saved"
That's a fallacious MAN-MADE argument that's refuted by EVERY scripture I just posted. You demonstrate repeatedly that you've hardened yourself totally to the truth & your blasphemy of the Holy Spirit has sealed your destruction. Your only purpose now is to be a warning to others not to take one step down Calvin's deceptive, dark road - the stench of your apostasy & living death is staggering even across the internet
Wow, this guy has no idea about the doctrines of grace and what they teach. No, calvinist I know say "you're not saved" if you don't believe in Calvinism...You're not saved if You're not born again! No one has the authority to pronounce anyone saved or unsaved! Our job is to preach the Gospel and trust the Holy Spirit to save His sheep...They will hear his voice. Those of you that would cause division, I'd warn you twice...and then have nothing more to do with you.
@Regulator Calvinism promotes a different gospel than found in the bible ("Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you"), Paul pronounces an eternal curse in Gal1:7-9 on anyone who preaches a false gospel. Calvinism also asserts that God creates certain people for the sole purpose of casting them into hell in order to glorify himself - such an assertion blasphemes God's character. If you think these issues don't affect someone's salvation then you're ignorant of God's word & the A /C debate.
@JackMWolfe LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!! You're a funny guy...funny! Maybe you're just ignorant as to what Calvinism teaches. You must just skip over John ch 6, 10, 17. Rom 8:28-30 and ch 9! And many other verses that speak of predestination and election. The word elect doesn't mean "one choosing" it mean "chosen. The word "church" doesn't mean all who profess him...it means "called out ones" who called them out?
@Regulator I'm funny & you're ignorant. I don't "skip over" any verses nor do I change words like "all, every, whosoever, everybody, the world, everyone, etc" to mean "a few" as Calvnisits do to promote their theological rubbish. God indeed predestines, calls, convicts, draws, justifies, etc but that doesn't negate the fact that man can CHOOSE to reject it all & instead die in his sins. Wake up & smell your apostasy & stop changing God's word to conform to your condemned gospel & heresies.
@JackMWolfe You obviously believe in universalism and would benefit from listening to Dr. James White on subjects concerning the Greek meanings of words, rather than your universalism type world view...people like you are such a waste of time. You would rather cause division than actual TEACH the bible. You seem more concerned in exalting yourself, than exalting Christ...pathetic and depraved and don't even know it.
@TheRegulator More ignorance - I'm not a universalist , & James White couldn't exegete his way out of wet parchment. I can reconcile & my doctrines with the ENTIRE bible & I don't have to change, ignore, or evade any scriptures to do it - but if you think he can do better than you did here, then have him come & try to defend his stupidity himself.
@TheRegulator1984 You certainly speak the truth about Jack,but he's actually an OPEN THEIST who only believes all means all when it suits him,he doesn't believe all means all in John 6:37
@CBALLEN Your false misinterpretation of Jn6:37 has already been refuted. Not every bible verse contains the enitre salvation process & it's verses like these that Calvinists search for to insert their blasphemous doctrines into the bible. The Father "gives them to Christ" by a very specific process - He convicts ALL men of their sin & need for a Savior & calls them to repentance, those who CHOOSE to repent are given to Christ for regeneration. The verse does NOT say "God picks some to destroy"
@JWolfe None of the verses in John 6 ever mention once that God is giving people to Christ where man first had to choose,it says it perfectly clear,God gave who He decided to give to Jesus,man is just the object being given,he plays no part in his salvation.Don't you see it's your kind that has to add or subtract from these verses to insert YOUR FALSE DOCTRINE?It just proves the Bible correct again when it says the natural man can neither KNOW or UNDERSTAND the things of God because you don't.
@CBALLEN Remember Jack,according to Jesus all the Father gives to Him are saved by Him.God doesn't draw all men according to scripture,because if God draws everyone,as you claim,then ALL MEN WOULD BE SAVED and we both agree that not all will be saved.So the problem again has been explained already,you can't understand because God has not saved you or drawn you to Jesus.You chose another god with your "free will',the only kind you could choose,a false god.Jack you are still in your sins,scary!
@CBALLEN God doesn't draw all men according to scripture,because if God draws everyone,as you claim,then ALL MEN WOULD BE SAVED"
The darkness that grips your mind is staggering. Since salvation is a GIFT, it can be refused - the ONLY thing that limits salvation is the choice of each individual to receive it or not. It's such a simple concept & repeated DOZENS of times throughout the bible but you ignore them all & blaspheme the God who gives man the freedom to choose. What a blind wretch.
@JackMWolfe " The verse does NOT say "God picks some to destroy"
The Bible is very clear,the reason people aren't saved is because God never draws them,He just lets them have their way and leaves them alone with their "free will".It also says ALL who are drawn to Jesus have irrevocable ever lasting life,more of the GOSPEL you don't believe.Is this how you witness?You may or may not receive eternal life but it's according to your "free will' whether you get to keep it or not?
@CBALLEN "The Bible is very clear,the reason people aren't saved is because God never draws them"
You're a liar, the bible says no such thing. That's a blasphemous idea that came from the darkened mind of a murderer named John Calvin who himself got it from a demon . It contradicts CHRIST Himself Who said "If I be lifted up I will draw ALL men unto Me." The true gospel is in Acts`17:30 "God charges ALL people EVERYWHERE to repent." The only reason people aren't saved is because they refuse it
Rom5:18 as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one Man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal & right standing with God & life for ALL men.
This verse especially highlights Calvinism’s changing of God’s word to promote their blasphemous doctrines - they accept that the 1st “all” refers to all men but change & limit the 2nd “all” to mean only “a chosen few.” Such a rendering not only disagrees with the rest of scripture but it renders the verse grammatically incoherent.
No one denies your ability to make choices. Our position is that you can only make choices in accordance to your nature. The scriptures state that you are in slavery Jn 8:31-47 and are spiritually dead Ep 2:1-9. You do not have the ability to believe unless God grants it Jn 6:44,65 Ep 2:8 or even the desire to believe (Rom 9:12). In the same way Lazarus (Jn 11:41-44) could not resurrect himself to obey Jesus "...come forth" God must resurrect you (Jn 3:3) before you can 'choose Him'.
@jofandkerstin 1st, the resurrection of Lazarus has to do with resurrection (!) NOT salvation - ALL will be resurrected. 2nd, spiritual death can't be equated with physical death - the prodigal's father said, "This my son who was DEAD is alive again." Spiritual death is defined as separation from the Father, it doesn't involve losing one's volition or will - the prodigal CHOSE to return to the father to have life again.3rd, God does grant repentance & faith but men can still choose to reject it.
I think you've missed the whole point (again), it's not a matter of not having free will it’s a question of inability (Rom 3:11-12) Please provide an exegesis of the passages provided in my previous post. I find it really disturbing that you Armenians constantly attempt to rob God of his glory in salvation, provide arguments based on emotionalism and a paper thin understanding of scripture and then have the audacity to say Calvinists are not saved or are apostates...truly sad. Soli Deo Gloria.
@jofandkerstin It's YOU that misses the point: 1) Man is born separated from God & won't seek Him on his own, nor is he able to repair the relationship even if he did 2)God has supplied a way back to Himself thru Christ 3) God intervenes in each person's life, convicts them of their sin & need for a Savior and 4) calls them ALL to repentance 5) those who CHOOSE to respond are then given to Christ for regeneration. This isn't rocket science - try reading the book of Romans a 2nd time.
if you paid the debt for someone, could anyone exact that debt from that person, which you have already paid? If the Redeemer paid the debt for all man's sins, how can God then require the debt to still be paid by any of them? Whom the Redeemer has redeemed, is redeemed indeed. Every soul that Jesus died to redeem will be redeemed. Clearly there being those for whom the eternal lake of fire awaits, demonstrates that Jesus clearly didn't die to redeem all of mankind-but only those who are his.
@HermitintheRain The part that man must play in the salvation process is to simply choose to receive the gift that he could never earn or merit on his own. God draws, convicts, predestines, chooses, justifies, redeems, etc but the fact remains that man can choose to reject all that & instead die in his sins. God doesn't force a relationship with Himself on anyone, they can choose to reject salvation and God will honor their decision.
@JackMWolfe you are right that man must receive it. yet even that willingness and ability is of the Lord. The book of Hosea is a beautiful picture of this. Ephraim who was given completely over to his idols would never come to the Lord of his own will. The Lord whose love for Ephraim would not just leave him forever in that state. As revealed in Hosea, the Lord through his mercy removed all his lovers/idols and then lure him into the wilderness.
@JackMWolfe Then at a time of the Lord's choosing visited Ephraim in the depths of his desolation and sorrow in that wilderness. In that hour of the Lord's visitation, the Lord then spoke comfortably to the heart of Ephraim, and in so doing, transformed his heart, and made him willing in the hour of his visitation. The Lord didn't force Ephraim. The Lord, by the power of his love for Ephraim, won Ephraim's heart through the wisdom of his providence upon his soul. So it is with all his people.
@JackMWolfe Psalm 107 is also a picture of how the Lord causes circumstances in our lives to arise to bring us to our knees in desperation so that all that we have is the Lord for hope. My will to choose the Lord is no better than any other reprobate sinner who openly rejects the Lord. Even my will, which is also depraved by the state of sin upon it will never choose the Lord, until the Lord in his mercy changes my state.
@JackMWolfe The Lord didn't force me in the sense of some tyrannt or rapist to obey him. The Lord however did work on my heart and my will through the mercy and beauty of love upon it. It is similar to the works of a man who through the careful courtship towards the woman of his love makes her willing to love him through such means. Song of Songs also shows this as well. By such mercy of love, when I was once unwilling, I find now that I desire nothing more than to obey him who loved me so.
@HermitintheRain Yes, & God works in EVERYONE'S heart the same way to bring them to repentance - He wishes that no one would perish. But Calvinism falsely teaches that He leaves certain people in their helpless condition because He created them for the sole purpose of casting them into hell in order to glorify himself. This is a false, blasphemous mischaracterization of God's character and It's a false gospel ie, "Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you"
@JackMWolfe did you repent before or after the Holy Spirit changed your heart? if you state that you repented before then you exalt yourself above those who in their unregenerated state did not repent. Is your heart & your will wiser or stronger than the one whose heart was too foolish or weak to repent, whose heart did not choose Christ? Were you less of a reprobate than the rest of us who was willing and able to repent of their own sinful nature on their own?
@JackMWolfe when Spirit visited me i was made to see how dreadfully wicked i was. how i openly and vigorously rebelled and resisted God. there was not one true desire to follow and serve God. even back when i thought i was trying to be 'christian' it wasn't Christ i was serving, but rather my own selfish interests. But in God's mercy to my soul, he reshaped/regenerated my heart to make it want to serve him. I didn't ask God to do that. But I am sure thankful that he did.
@JackMWolfe In the gift of grace that God has poured upon me, I have found repentance as an essential nature of the faith that he has given me. I have found love for God where once there was hatred. I have found a will, that though it thought it was free at one time, was really a slave to sin. Since Jesus set my heart free, i find that my will has also been liberated. Ironically, in that liberation, I find that my will desires only to serve him who bought me with his blood
@JackMWolfe Jesus-the Truth that set me free indeed-has become my Lord to whom I willingly, by his work upon my soul, choose to be his bondservant. Before Christ set me free, my will was bound under the chains of sin. I couldn't choose anything but to sin. But when he set me free, my will became free for the first time in my life. With my freed will, I find I don't want anything but Christ's will for my life. I don't pray, Thy will be done according to my will, but thy will be done period.
@JackMWolfe When God declares that he raised up pharoah that he might display the power of his wrath-those aren't men's words-but the words of the Holy Spirit. When Isaiah tells us that God ransomed Egypt for Israel and gave Ethiopia for Jacob, that again is not man's words but the Holy Spirit showing God's sovereign will in effect of showing mercy to whom he will show mercy and compassion on whom he will have compassion.
@JackMWolfe whatever problems you have about God's electing grace is not with men, or with 'calvinists'. It is really problems you are having with God's own declaration of his purpose as revealed in his holy Scriptures. No one is preaching Christ MIGHT have died for you. The gospel is for God's elect-whom he not only will save, but absolutely must save. Christ will not lose one soul whom the Father calls and the Spirit brings to him. He shall not fail to save anyone the Father chooses.
@JackMWolfe But once you come to recognize your own sinfulness; how in yourself there was nothing in you that was ever going to come to God of its own volition; you will then be thankful and praising God for his electing grace upon your soul-knowing without which you would have been forever lost. You will say amen to knowing in your own soul that it is not to him that runneth, or to him that willeth; neither by the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God who shows mercy.
@JackMWolfe God does not work in everyone's heart the same way. That is a humanistic philosophy that basically obligates God to save anyone, even worse that he is obligated to save everyone. God doesn't owe anyone anything. That God has elected to show mercy on anyone is the demonstration of his glory in grace.
@HermitintheRain Rambling gibberish, musings not of a hermit but of a heretic that needs to come in out of the rain. Christ died for ALL men, God calls them ALL to repentance, & those who CHOOSE to submit to His conviction are then given to Christ for regeneration. THAT'S bible truth, try reading it sometime without your ignorant Calvinistic presuppositions - you sound like a complete idiot.
@JackMWolfe thank you for revealing the heart of hatred that still rests in you. the Lord be merciful to you in giving you deliverance from it. this here ends what i had hoped would be at least a civil conversation. in parting, study carefully the law of redemption. then look to Jesus the Redeemer and ask the Lord how he can die to redeem all of mankind and they not all be redeemed from their sins without him being a failure. The Lord shall not fail to redeem ever soul he died to redeem. shalom
@HermitintheRain Nonsense, what you perceive as hatred is disgust of those who willfully oppose the truth & mislead others. And Jesus isn't a failure as you blasphemously portray Him, He successfully redeemed all mankind but doesn't force a relationship with God on anyone - He's not a rapist as you also blasphemously portray Him. You preach a false gospel & blaspheme God's character, Gal1:7-9 says not to wish anyone peace or godspeed who does so - so may the curse it pronounces be upon you.
@JackMWolfe obviously you don't know how to read. cause if you had you wouldn't have made such lies against me. my words are clearly evident to the whole world that i didn't say such things. in fact i specifically clarified it. sadly you don't get it. don't bother responding. you are now blocked. God be merciful to you. i dust my feet of you.
@Hermit Your convoluted arguments don't actually match your beliefs. Calvinists, like all cults, use the same terms as normal Christians but pour different meanings into them - terms like Justification, Sanctification, Sovereignty, Free Will, Grace, etc are all redefined. For example, Calvinists claim to believe in free will but what they mean is that God forces an irresistible change of heart on some so they will "freely" choose Him but withholds it from others, causing them to "freely" sin.
LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us. Isaiah 26:12
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Romans 5:1
What part did any of us contribute to that peace? It appears to me that the Holy Spirit is telling us that the LORD alone did it all. He called us, he chose us, he made us willing and able to believe in the day of his visitation, he justified us, he sanctified us.
@HermitintheRain For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? 1 Corinthians 4:7
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:17
What good gift do you have-including the will and faith to follow the Lord-did you not receive from the Father of lights?
free will lol tell me of a female that can taste chocalate ho hos and not love them?? she dreams of them and the dollar store sells out of them. she chooses acording to her nature. IN the same way GOD transforms our GOD hating heart into a heart that loves jesus new nature imparted by the holy spirit. THIS is the great and mighty work of our sovreign GOD.no one can choose to love that wich they hate. GOD must do a great work!!!
it is very simple christ found me i but i thought i found him/chose him that was not the case he chose me. we generaly come to christ as arminians then by gods grace we become calvinists when we realize he drew us to himself, that the change in our heart toward GOD only occured due to a supernatural work of the HOLY SPIRIT. yes arminians are saved just doctrinially flawed calvinists simply attempt to do full justice to GOD and his great work. in this we fail because we canot give him enoughglory
@BereanDenver Rom 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
So we are slaves to sin for we sin but an unregenerate person can do good. Would you conclude that a man who takes care of his family is sinning by doing so?
@bullawaya I completely agree that the bible gives us instructions and maybe, "conditions." And I believe that all Christians must adheer to these. (The question is, are we capable to not?) However, nobody is saved by doing these things. That is my point. We are saved by Christ's sacrifice for us, he paid our debt. I fully agree that one cannot go on sinning unrepentantly, but the reason for this is grattitude, not selfishness (Saving oneself).
I think He has all the say so, in all matters. Except for who will be saved? Hmmmm. The clay tells the potter what's what in that issue. Hmmmm. (Clay)- I chose you God. (Potter)- Ok my creation its all up to you. You get the glory for your excellent decision. I guess thats what Romans chapter nine means. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob all chose God? Hmmmm.
@bigcpop God supplied a salvation thru Christ that no one could earn or merit for themselves and offers it as a gift for whosoever wills - and you characterize reaching out to accept the gift as man "glorifying himself"? Hmmmmmm. I challenge you to find one quote from any Arminian from the last 2000 years that gives the glory for their salvation to anyone but God. A drowning man reaching out to grasp a lifeline doesn't walk away boasting how he "saved himself". Get real.
@JackMWolfe Brother Jack, I apologize if i offended you. I'm reading my post and it seems a bit condescending, that was not my intent. Do me a favor and read Rom. 9 and explain to me what it means.
@bigcpop74 I know you are asking me but In order to fully understand Romans 9 one must look up all of what Paul referenced and read the stories in totality. Also you have to read the whole of Romans. One this is for sure is that Esau never served Jacob personally.
@bigcpop In context, Rom9 is part of a discourse by Paul about God's selection of Israel (Jacob) over the Gentiles (Esau) to bear testimony about Him to the world & to be the nation which brings forth the Messiah. It's not about personal salvation, which is instead by invitation NOT by decree. But it's quite typical of Calvinists to cite such instances of God's sovereign acts & then inappropriately try to stretch them into the area of personal salvation - all to prop up their shaky doctrines.
19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore CHOOSE life, that both you and your descendants may live;
Not one place in scripture does choosing God give anyone any reason glory, thats a foolish assumption. Again, the calvinising of the bible. Funny thing many calvinsints come off so very proud, If you are humble b4 God you will be humble b4 man.
Also I would like to say that a calvinist praying for someone to be saved is the epitome of hypocrisy. There is no need to pray for the "elect" to be saved at all if they were chosen and predestined by Gods sovereign will.
"Having people work for thier salvation. . ." huh?! Calvinists are doing this? How so? I think it is the other way around. If I am ultimately responsible for my salvation, am I not saving myself, working for my salvation?
":Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."
We could just as easily replace these names with Calvin or Luther. I must ask, where is the fruit of this debate??
Scripture says to be of one mind. The church proper and its subsequent "theology" has failed. Only God shows us truth through His indwelling Holy Spirit. Trust not man, but God.
@katmariebokon As with one I am discussing with on here correctly showed-this passage is not applicable to this division. Calvinism is not the same as Arminianism. In this passage, those people preached the same exact message and gospel unless maybe Paul is seen preaching a different gospel message compared to Christ.
I agree we should take our doctrine from the bible and not reading our own theology into the bible. With this, then when Paul quotes Psalms 14 and 53 about the sin nature that states there is none that seek after God and both chapters expressly denies the Arminian viewpoint of God uses omniscience to see who will choose Christ and who will reject christ. These passages conclusively disproves Arminian foreknowledge.
Well, I suppose you could say this that maybe others do not see you as a Christian because of Calvinism despite the fact all Calvinists affirm repentance from the sin nature and faith in the finished work of Christ which by the way is not a part of TULIP or any other "Calvinistic" system. Before I became a Calvinist-I always viewed them as my brothers and sisters in Christ not agreeing on a not so easy to understand doctrines. Now as a Calvinist, do I view those who disagree any differantly?
@daveme7 You need to realize that Calvinism & Arminianism are irreconcilable belief systems & there can never be any true fellowship between the 2 camps. Calvinism has a different gospel than the bible's ("Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you"), & misportrays God as a narcissistic tyrant who glorifies himself by creating certain people for the sole purpose of casting them into hell. Believers are obligated to oppose such blasphemy & false gospels, not fellowship with their proponents.
@JackMWolfe@JackMWolfe So when I ask you or others about foreknowledge, you and others will explain to me that God foreknows by looking through the corridor of time seeing whom willaccept and reject Christ because of his omniscience. So, when the Calvinist explains God looks through the corridor of time apart from time and sees no one ever accepting Christ so God elects some to be saved and only think election is to salvation-not condemnation
@daveme7 1st, the doctrine that God “looks down the corridor of time to see who will choose Him” isn’t in the bible. Rather, God has chosen ALL men for salvation in Christ, they are invited to accept Him in real time whenever God chooses to call them, & their decision determines their eternal destiny. The decision belongs completely to them - God doesn’t peer into the future to see what it will be. The result of the decision ie, life or death, is foreknown but not the actual decision itself.
The scriptures disagrees with you. When bringing certain chapters describing sin such as there is none that seek after God-apparently as it not also opposes whoever defines foreknowledge as the omniscience of God as it also tends to oppose your own ideas of how God works. When there is none that seek after God and the Psalms are explicit as describing the fool who claims there is no God-how exactly does God offer them a choice when they already made a choice to disvbelieve a God exists?
@daveme7 To perhaps make the salvation process clearer: 1)man can't save himself, 2)God must provide a way for man 3)He has done so thru Christ 4)He calls all men to repentance 5)Without that call man will never choose God on his own 6)God even supplies the faith to believe 7)When he's called, man must make a decision to repent 8)If he does then God gives him to Christ for regeneration 9)he must continue to follow Christ. Salvation doesn't originate from man's will - but it ends when he decides.
@JackMWolfe In other words, for the non Calvinist whether Arminian or not-God is not subjected to time sincew he created time but for the Calvinist God is limited by time and cannot stand outside of time as we are goiven a God who is subbjected to linear time as is often misapplied that God is somehow unfair for not giving people a chance to be saved and thus God is now evil. Yet in the non Calvinist viewpoint-God is never evil because God does give people a chance.
@daveme7 2nd, no one seeks God on their own, salvation is a work of the Holy Spirit to convict them of sin & call them to Christ - without God’s direct intervention no one could be or would even want to be saved (Rom3:10-12). However, although salvation doesn't ORIGINATE from man's will but from God's, it ENDS when man chooses to accept God's gift or not. God doesn't force a relationship with Himself on anyone - man can choose to die instead.
@JackMWolfe I am kind of seeing this as still wanting to hold onto free will. Id o believe in free will as free will is the sin nature(knowledge of good and evil-see how this made Adam self righteous in departing and opposing God as Adam saw nakedness as sin and God called it good.)
@JackMWolfe But then, what about these passages that teaches there is none whom seek after God? where in the scriptures does it teach God looks down to se if any accept Christ and follow God when the whole ideal of this is blasted by Psalms 3 and Psalms 14 and 53? Of course, in Psalms three it is a statement of fact where in those psalms-God asks these questions and the conclusion is:They have all gone back, they have become filthy, there is none that do good no not one
@daveme7 3rd The call to unity in 1Cor1 doesn’t apply to the A/C debate - Paul was warning about being factious in following men who had SOUND DOCTRINE ie, himself, Peter, Apollos etc. which doesn't apply to the C/A debate - the division is about fundamental bible doctrines not personality or style. Unity isn't an option with heresy, we're called to oppose false gospels and blasphemous misportrayals of God's character, not fellowship with the proponents of such errors.
@JackMWolfe I do not disagree with you on 1 Cor 1 as much as fundamentalism was very much led by Calvinists starting with Meachem while at Prinecton through books and radio brodcasts, and sermons blasted modernism. The point is I have been trying to make all along-we will always disagree. when one side decides to judge the other as heretical is a bad thing when in the past both Calvinists and Arminians laid down differances to opposes modernism showing unity in the fundamentals of the faith.
@JackMWolfe Let me then ask, God knew others would ot be saved whether God elects or not. This we can agree on that there will be people who God will throw into hell. God knew this before they(we) came inti existance-so nthen why did God allow this to happen since one way or the other they will go to hell? God knew Adam and Eve would rebel and as well as Lucifer-God knew this but he created them anyways?
@JackMWolfe On a very much different note-what part o fCalvinism that was sometimes never taught by Calvin(only Christ dying for the elect) is a false gospel? Who, what, when, where, why. Maybe John Calvin taught a false gospel or Charles Spurgeon, Paul Bunyon, Jonathon Edwards, Matthew Henry, George Whitfield, William Carey, or adnoriam Judson-which one of thee preached a false gospel as some were responsible for the spread and beginning of missins form the USA?
@daveme7 4th, I would point out that the ministers you mentioned hypocritically preached the Armininian gospel instead of the limited one they actually believed. It's very similar to the Jehovah Witnesses & LDS who come to your door hiding their apostate beliefs behind a thin veneer of orhodoxy. Jesus warned that you'd know them by their fruits, engaging in such intentiional deception should serve as a big red flag that Calvinism doesn't proceed from God.
@JackMWolfe This is where you are going to run into problems and becomes an intersecting point to me. Not saying you do this but often many will try to relate Calvinism yto some cult, other religion, philospophy which often is grasping at straws. Mormons and JW's thproughly agree with free will that most Calvinists deny. I think it is especially hilarious when pointoing to Augustine as an oinfluance i.e. a Catholic. Satanists, free will occults, emkergent church, Aliester Crowley, Anton Levay,
@JackMWolfe All these including Roman Catholicism and the disciples of Christ whom influanced or have a direct line of influance in restoration doctrine all believe God has given man free will. As Mormons in Kirkland competed for disciples on the PA/OH border, Joseph Smith borrowed from DIC(no joke intended using initials). a man broke from the disciples which spawned Christedelphians and these spawned JW's. To me this is laughable to say these are related in actions.
@JackMWolfe On a different note, John Calvin(to my knowledge) never preached Limited Atonement. When the scriptures taught we were to go into the whole world to preach the gospel to every creature, com[pel them to come in-this is where I see it is not about Calvinism or Armenianism but rather biblical. I mention these for one reason-often many will castigate over this as basically a lack of consistancy.
@JackMWolfe Here is one example of being inconsistant-one time I was a Baptist and Fundamentalist(still am just more reformed) as many IFB churches teach only the KJV in english and most times view calvinism as heretical when this is all for naught when King James was a Calvinist and had mopre to do with the Synod of Dort thyen John Calvin as Calvin was dead 64 yrs when this Synod that created TULIP was called. For me it is not a point of trying to show someone is orthodox(to be cont)
For me the whole point is consistancy especially from those who are against Calvi ism when most times somewhere in their library or something they read which was in fact taught, preached, written by a Calvinist. In other words, we can judge others all we want and yet not be consistent in our actions. I applaud you. I disagree, but I applaud you for stating they were hypocrites which is a lot better than not having a good answer and ignoring. I rather respect saying they were hypocrites.
@daveme7 As to fellowship between C's & A's. there can be no genuine fellowship with those who hold an unbiblical gospel & who blaspheme God's character. The only reason any exists is because the C's preach the Arminian gospel & hide their other unbiblical doctrines with a thin veil of orthodoxy eg, they claim to believe in free will - what they mean is 1)that God regenerates the elect so they'll then "freely" choose Christ 2)He lets the non-elect freely sin uninterrupted, then destroys them.
@JackMWolfe This is where I truely think you do not understand what is going on with TULIP or Calvinism in general. TULIP defines the secret counsels of God in electing people to be saved. One thing many do not understand-TULIP is an apologetic not an affirmation of what the gospel teaches to save man. Besides this, it is a direct opposite teaching against remonstrance articles of which there was fiove(thus TULUP also containing five)
@daveme 1st, Arminianism is an answer to Calvin’s heresy, not vice versa. 2nd, God’s will for man is openly declared ie, He desires ALL men to repent & be saved - He has no secret, predetermined, duplicitous will to cast some of them into hell in order to glorify himself. 3rd, God gave man free will because He desires relationship - pre-programmed robots can’t supply that. 4th, Adam wasn't created with a sin nature, 5th, God convicts ALL men of their sin & calls them ALL to repentance.
@JackMWolfe On this, it is a bit incorrect as I also disagree with most Calvinists in these regards. They teach a sort of moral pressing upon sinners that we are unable to choose righteousness or perverted by the sin nature that all decisions are not amoral but are evil. I do believe in free will and do believe it came from God but I believe God never intended us to have free will. Go look at the standard definitions of free will and then look in Genesis three how
@JackMWolfe On free will and sin, look in Genesis three to see how the sin nature worked through Adam and Eve. For the most part, the knowledege of good and evil I do believe is the sin nature. In other words, free will is the sin nature. Basically this passes from God allowing people to continue in sin and than judging them. I see it as an absolute repudiation of God and Christ in rebellion and if they could every single one of us would be crying "Crucify, Crucify"
One of many who do not understand the nature of redemption and the work of Christ. For it all made simple search youtube for the video "For Whom Christ Died" by True Blue Auctions.
@trueblue Why don't you give everybody a quick summary of what you wrote there - from what you've displayed in other videos eg, your misunderstanding of the difference between physical & spiritual death, not many are going to bother plodding through reams of the same kind of sophomoric prattle. Redemption is indeed very simple - it's for whosoever wills.
image of His perfect son before the world began. Stop looking to men and look to the inerrant WORD OF GOD!!!
Jyobaloria 5 months ago
@Jyobaloria Amen, you are right. As a Calvinist myself I fully agree. However, I would contend that the doctrines of Reformed Soteriology (Calvinism) is consistent with the Word of God. Any one who thinks that God makes people evil so as to send them to hell (Rom 9:22) is plain mistaken. We hold that man is dead in sin (Eph 2:1, Rom 5:12-14) therefore, we send ourselves to Hell. God would be completely just and good to condemn us all. However, for His own glory He decided to save some.
JustifiedbyGod 4 months ago
@JustifiedbyGod
Rom 9:22 doesn't say they're going to hell--this is you imposing your views into the text. It's about nations, Jew vs. Gentile. Read the entire argument Paul is making in the book of Romans and it sticks out like a sore thumb the Jews didn't understand how the Gentiles were being added into the covenant. Because they thought the promise was only made to the Jewish descendants of Abraham(from Gen 13:15)--yet it really was SEED---Christ, whom unites both Jew and Gentile.
droptozro 3 months ago
@droptozro rom;9 is not about nations ! because from the begining of the chapter tells how paul wishes he was accursed for the sake of his bretheren! than he goes on to say not every one is a jew but only those on the inside who were chosen by GOD through Isaac and thats how he ends up with jacob and essau though being from the same father and mother only one was loved and elected
patriotsfan1379 3 months ago
@patriotsfan1379
"Rom 9 not about nations" "...jacob and esau, thought being from same father and mother, only one was loved and elected"
Yes to bring about the Messiah, you quote the verse that most easily refutes you also. Do any of you actually look UP what Paul's speaking about and quoting from the OT? These aren't just vacuum verses, he expected his audience to know what he was talking about.
Continued, Romans 9:12 from the old testament is Genesis 25:23
droptozro 3 months ago
@patriotsfan1379
23 And the LORD said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.”
Then, read Romans 9:13--this is a quote from Malachi 1:2-3, written HUNDREDS of years after Jacob and Esau's death. “ Yet Jacob I have loved; 3 But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage
verse 4, "Edom" is nation
droptozro 3 months ago
@droptozro this is not the only place in scripture were the old testament is quoted to a different meaning you cannot take the verse out of context of what the chapter is talking about !! yes in malachi the prophet is talking about 2 nations but the CONTEXT of rom 9 is about individuals otherwise the whole argument about ishmael and isaac and rebecca falls and the begining of the chapter would make no sence ""context context context"""
patriotsfan1379 3 months ago
@patriotsfan1379
Yes Malachi and Genesis are both about nations, I gave you the quotes from both parts in Romans 9. You would like the proof of Isaac and Ismael now also?
Go to Galatians 4, read all. See what Paul states, these two children represent the two covenants--one of the promise(free) and one of the flesh(bondage). Representing true Israelites circumsized at heart(Christians, including Gentiles) versus fleshly Israelites(Jews, circumsized in flesh). Jews and Gentiles, nations!
droptozro 3 months ago
@droptozro galatians is not talking about the same subject as romans ch;9 you are taking things out of cotext !!! again "" but before they had done anything good or bad so that GOD porpouse in election might stand""ELECTION ELECTION
patriotsfan1379 3 months ago
@patriotsfan1379
...so I agree, "context context context" Calvinists don't have it at all--you're ripping out this chapter from both its book context, other Scriptures to interpret it properly, and probably the least but most ignored--the HISTORICAL context. Christian Jews did not understand how Gentiles were being added to the covenant, thinking along the Mosaic law--yet Paul had to correct them that it was the Abrahamic covenant that they were being added in...context is very important.
droptozro 3 months ago
@droptozro but in the context or rom;9 has nothing to do with gentiles being drafted the way the chapter starts is paul asking why are not all jews saved ? and he adds that GODS promisses have not failed but that there is an election even the egyptian king was elected to a porpouseand he wasn't even a jew !!also later in the ch; it talks about vessels fitted for wrath and some for mercy there is no way your points make any sense you are taking thing out of context
patriotsfan1379 3 months ago
@patriotsfan1379
"Paul is asking why are not all Jews saved?" EXACTLY! You don't understand this issue. Go read Genesis 13:15 and then compare to Galatians 3:15-29, special attention to Paul's correction of Jewish misunderstanding. What did the Pharisees often say? John 8:33. Jews thought it was every physical descendant of Abraham who would inherit the Kingdom of God--so that would mean all Jews would be saved. Yet Paul has to correct their misunderstanding and translation from Genesis
droptozro 3 months ago
@patriotsfan1379
All Jews are not saved because they're still in bondage to the law(Mosaic) and need to be set free seeing that the promise was made to Abraham and the only way to INHERIT the Kingdom is through Christ(Gal 3/4). The election has to do with Christ(who was elect by the way, see Matthew 12:18, compare it with Isaiah 42:1) in which He is the ONLY way to gain salvation because the promise was made to Abraham and his Seed(Christ). We are co-elect with Him. Also, elect doesn't...
droptozro 3 months ago
@droptozro you are really taking these verses out of context it is plain to see that what the bible says about the natural man not being able to undestand the things of GOD its being demonstrated by you lol!rom ch;11 says they are in bondage because GOD gave them a spirit of stupor but no you think man has free will and that is your idol pride ! man has no freewill even without going to the bible which teaches that plainly common sense can tell you that there is no freewil humanist!!
patriotsfan1379 3 months ago
@patriotsfan1379 They were blinded because they sought it by the law, sought it not by faith. Again Romans 11, do you NOT look up what Paul's quoting... look up Deut 29:4 and Isaiah 29:10---why does God say He gave them this spirit? DISOBEDIENCE.
"but no you think man has free will" --in your view, if I have no free will, then God predestined me to think this way--who are you to reply to God o'man? Are you disagreeing with His will? In fact you prove we have a free will by your words.
droptozro 3 months ago
@droptozro no you are right!! at least about that !! and unless GOD decides to have mercy on you, you cannot see the truth JESUS said unles a man is born again he cannot enter let alone see the kingdom!! you have taken every passage out of context !! you think you are the captain of your ship master of your destiny hahahaha you think you can come when ever you want but salvation is of the LORD to give to whom HE pleases JESUS said no 1 can come to me unles the father draws him
patriotsfan1379 3 months ago
@droptozro they sought it that way because the unregenerate man cannot please GOD faith true faith its GOD given !!! not man made and without faith it is impossible to please GOD!!!
patriotsfan1379 3 months ago
@patriotsfan1379
I see so many man's doctrines and so many proof-texts. You've been explained the truth patiently, you've rejected it--continue in your semi-Gnostic heresies blindly. Hopefully you'll seek the truth one day. God bless
droptozro 3 months ago
@droptozro you have brought passages and or verses that have nothing to do with rom;ch;9 to try to make them fit into your humanist ideas you bring them because it seems as if they are but really are not even when given evidence in exodus ch;4 that it was GOD the first cause in pharoh's hardening youignored it!! "" for divitions must come among you so that people can see those who are aproved""
patriotsfan1379 3 months ago
@patriotsfan1379 ...doesn't mean what you're implying on it. I gave you one instance, it means "choice" as in precious or "beloved" as I gave you from the Isaiah 42:1 parallel. Don't impose modern definitions, use Scriptural ones. If you don't understand the last 2 messages I gave you, you won't understand Romans, guaranteed.
Pharaoh--yes, representing Gentiles--Paul continues his argument, Do you read Exodus 9 which it comes from? God says it is Pharaoh's fault in verse 18, and 20
droptozro 3 months ago
@droptozro I see your problem you are an enlightened humanist!!from ch4 in exodus the first instance it is GOD who hardens phoroh's hart he is a secondary cause or effect!! the jews are not saved because they have been hardened by GOD rom 11jeremiah 18 has nothing to do with the vessels""fitted" for destruction neither does 2 timmothy 2 ;20 since in that chapter he is talking to believers but in rom; there is a distinction between vessel of mercy and of wrath you can fool someone else but not me
patriotsfan1379 3 months ago
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droptozro 3 months ago
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droptozro 3 months ago
@patriotsfan1379 You're just hardened to the truth too, you're not seeking it. Amazing you call another prideful yet you give you no proper explanation of the Scripture in and of itself and I give you context, other Scripture, OT quotes, and history--and you tell me I've still got it wrong and you've got nothing contextual to back up your assertions. Who's prideful? You, you stand alone I give you Scripture to show context. You also don't understand Romans 11 being about Jew/Gentile.
droptozro 3 months ago
@patriotsfan1379 So Moses representing Jews and Pharaoh represents the Gentiles, God was longsuffering with the Jews---so can He also be with the Gentiles by adding them into the covenant through Christ. This was the mystery revealed! Jew and Gentile uniting in Christ! The Jews thought they were the special people, so before they could complain that God was having mercy on others--Paul stopped their mouths in Rom 9:18.
You also mention Rom 9:21.. but did you look at the OT again?
droptozro 3 months ago
@patriotsfan1379 Look at Jeremiah 18:6--Potter and clay, but look what happened... the Jews marred themselves in God's hand, nations again!
Just to cover both sides, you still may think it's individuals with the potter/clay--so look at 2 Tim 2:20-22, what does this passage say? Who's responsibility is it to be a proper vessel? "If anyone cleanses himself..."
My points make complete sense with the rest of the Scripture, you're vacuuming this text--read the rest Rom 9:25-33. Jews and Gentiles!
droptozro 3 months ago
@JustifiedbyGod
In your view also, God predestined that person to go to hell and be in their sins. That's not just.. how backwards are you? It's like me pushing Bob into Kim and then Kim turns around and blames Bob. Is it Bob's fault he fell into her? No. It's my fault, if I chose to push Bob into Kim, my fault.
It's like kicking a dog off of a roof and telling it to fly and then when it falls and dies--sending it to hell, that's the Calvinist god, the man who kicked the dog.
droptozro 3 months ago
@droptozro why is it not just? because you say so!!! hahahahahah what a fool you are and a pridefullone at that do you think for 1 moment that GOD sits in heaven asking whether or not to act because HE might be percieved as unjust??? hahahah what a fool
patriotsfan1379 3 months ago
because there is NO other name under heaven in which men must be saved. Acts 4:12. Also Paul warns Timothy in 1 Tim. 3-7 i will emphasize 6 and 7. "For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to FRUITLESS discussion, 7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they makeconfident assersitions." Does this discussion help us love God more? All have sinned thank God he chose me to be conformed to the
Jyobaloria 5 months ago
Dear friends,
If I use this mans word i will tell you that do let the word of God speak for itself. Read Eph. 1:1-2:8 and overemphasize ever HIm,His, or Jesus Christ. I would also say that if anyone teaches anything different from 1 Cor. 15:1-4 he/she is to be accursed Gal. 1:6-9. also our prayers do not change God Acts 2:23 predetermined and foreknowledge of God. This is one concept. He knew and determined its incredible but my friend regardless of clavanism ans arminism let us look to Christ
Jyobaloria 5 months ago
I would much rather trust John Piper and John MacArthur and RC Sproul for spiritual insight that Pastor Rokser who put down Calvinists with no scripture to back him up.
TheAslan1975 6 months ago
To say Martin Luther was a Calvinist reveals a fundamental ignorance of history and Christian theology. 'Calvinism' began as an insult against those held to a Biblical based doctrine. Calvinism is growing because congregations are hungering to grow in faith and understanding of the Scriptures. Unfortunately many preachers are not up to the job and preach a discordant set of effectual 'sound-bites' to substitute for a basic lack of theological training.
johnsammyanfal 1 year ago
@johnsammyanfal Not at all!
In fact, both were, spirtually I mean, "updated romanists".
Christ is not like Calvin nor Luther. Christ is The Lord, those ones are NOT.
The LOVE of GOD is higher then the human thoughts of justice. Both (Calvin, Luther - and many others) got their own convictions from one roman/greek/phylosophy "god" that never listen, only comands everything..
marcelobetel 11 months ago
The deep spirituality and love of Christ is evident in this pastor. He, like many Biblicists, expects God to act in the world. He reads the Bible. Most who resist modern Calvinism do so gently and respectfully, as this pastor does. Surely God is grieved at the manner in which this debate is conducted, at the proud expressions of righteous contempt so easily put up. Let us treat each other as brothers and have a discussion in which each party recognizes the indwelling Spirit in the other.
apprentice2him 1 year ago
@apprentice You need to recognize that the A & C camps are opposite belief systems & are irreconcilable - there can be no genuine fellowship. Calviinists use the same terms but like all cults, they pour totally different meanings into them - Justification, Sanctification, Election, Free Will, Sovereignty, Grace, etc are all defined differently than mainstream Christianity. They have a different gospel & claim that God creates helpless people only to cast into hell - it's heretical & blasphemous
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
I think if you understand that the Gospel is the power of God unto the salvation of men by faith in Jesus Christ & repentance, it doesn't matter if you're Calvanist or Armenian. What matters is that you're BIBLICAL. Oh, I'm a monergist BTW because of Romans. Does that mean I'm going to hell? Preach the gospel, not CvsA bigotry.
joejumps4fun 1 year ago
@joejumps You obviously don't understand that Calvinism & Arminianism are irreconcilable belief systems - there can be no genuine fellowship between the adherents. Calvinism has a different gospel ("Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you") & blasphemously proclaims that God creates helpless people for the sole purpose of casting them into hell in order to glofiy himself. By YOUR OWN standards ie, being "biblical" & "preaching the gospel" Calvinism stands condemned for doing neither one.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe Your OPEN THEISM has caused your brain to deteriorate beyond man's help,if you come to the TRUE GOSPEL you'll have to do it like everyone else,through the power of God alone.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN The TRUE gospel is in Acts17:29 "Since then we are God's offspring... Such former ages of ignorance God, it is true, ignored & allowed to pass unnoticed; but now He charges ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE to repent" but your gospel is "Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you" & the REAL God is a loving heavenly Father who desires that no one perish, but yours is a tyrant who creates people only to cast them into hell in order to glorify himself. You're a demented, lying, blasphemous reprobate.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe Wow, I guess I probably don't understand it enough, but what you described sounds like hyper Calvinism. I don't really know what I am. I just know I believe the Bible and I think that's what matters. I subscribe to monergism because salvation is only & entirely from God, yet man has the responsibility to respond. God doesn't create people for the sole purpose of hell. That's why man is responsible to respond to His Gospel in repentance & faith.
joejumps4fun 1 year ago
@joejumps Yes, if you think Calvinism is the least bit orthodox, you haven't studied their beliefs. Their Total Depravity pillar is the only doctrine that even comes close but it isn't 100% correct either. Calvinists play lots of word games trying to make their aberrant doctrines appear mainstream for instance, many claim to believe in free will but they mean that God irresistibly changes some hearts so they "freely" choose Christ, while leaving the rest to "freely" sin until He destroys them.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe Yeah, that's something I've always disagreed with but I know some Calvanists who would disagree with that, too. I think God knows if we're going to turn to Christ or not, and to my understanding and belief, God doesn't decide what we'll do before time...He just knows. So if both C&A are wrong, what do you call someone who is just plain ole "Biblical"? :)
joejumps4fun 1 year ago
@joejumps We disagree about God's foreknowledge otherwise everything you've expressed here is biblical, therefore you're an Arminian. As Spurgeon once said "I started out an Arminian like everyone else" Calvinists become so by being taught how to change the scriptures to mean the opposite - DOZENS of verses which use inclusive terms about salvation such as "all, every, us, everyone, our, the world, everybody, whosoever,etc" are all changed to mean "a few" or "some". Calvin was a false prophet.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@joejumps Hyper-Calvinists are simply those who are upfront & honest about their beliefs & have stopped trying to hide them behind a thin veneer of orthodoxy like most Calvinists do. They've stopped apologizing for their elitist doctrines, exclusive gospel, & the tyrannical "god" they worship - they expect to be greatly rewarded for unashamedly accosting everyone with the idea that God has sovereignly chosen some for heaven, others for hell - & neither group has any choice whatsover about it.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
Many will say in that day" Lord ,Lord,did I not choose you when I could have thwarted your will and didn't I keep my eternal life myself when I could have turned and changed my mind and went back to my old ways"? Then Jesus will say,"Depart,I never knew you".So it's not who you think you know but who knows you.You don't know the real Lord,but one who you have power over,you have molded the god you believe in yourself.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN "Many will say in that day" Lord ,Lord,did I not choose you when I could have thwarted your will and didn't I keep my eternal life myself when I could have turned and changed my mind and went back to my old ways"? Then Jesus will say,"Depart,I never knew you".
Now you're putting your unholy, condemned gibberish DIRECTLY into Christ's mouth! Most don't realize that the many changes that Calvinists make to God's word is a form of false prophecy - putting false words into God's mouth.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe These who Jesus was speaking to were telling Jesus of the things that they did to deserve salvation,this sounds just like what you would do,I CHOSE YOU,I KEPT MYSELF SAVED,I WAS THE ULTIMATE DECIDER OF MY OWN SALVATION,same thing just different words.Belief in the real Christ is the confirmation that one has been BORN AGAIN by GOD,not the means of salvation.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN You put false words into Christ's mouth & you just did the same with me - you do this with EVERYONE who rebukes & refutes your demonic doctrines. You're a false prophet by putting words into God's mouth that He never spoke & a false accuser for putting words into mine that I've never said. You continue to demonstrate that you're a blasphemer of God, His word, & the Holy Spirit - you can NEVER return to the truth, you're caught in an eternal trespass.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe You're no Christian.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN You're a confirmed apostate, now standing under the curse of Gal1:7-9 for preaching a different gospel & for promoting heresy by every deceptive means possible. Peter warns of you in 2Pet2:1, "But also in those days there arose false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among yourselves, who will subtly & stealthily introduce heretical doctrines, even denying & disowning the Master Who bought them" Your gospel is condemned & your "god" is a Satanic counterfeit
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
ALL had to be used to clarify Jesus died for Jews and Gentiles, because salvation was only for the Jews in the Old Testament,with few exceptions,so once people understand this the Bible makes much more sense.IfJesus died for the sins of ALL men,then ALL men would be saved,but this is not the case at all.You can't understand this Jack because you are UNABLE.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN "If Jesus died for the sins of ALL men,then ALL men would be saved"
That's a fallacious MAN-MADE argument that's refuted by EVERY scripture I just posted. You demonstrate repeatedly that you've hardened yourself totally to the truth & your blasphemy of the Holy Spirit has sealed your destruction. Your only purpose now is to be a warning to others not to take one step down Calvin's deceptive, dark road - the stench of your apostasy & living death is staggering even across the internet
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
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CBALLEN 1 year ago
This preacher doesn't understand that once you learn that 2 + 2=4 it's hard to go back and believe it's 3.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
Wow, this guy has no idea about the doctrines of grace and what they teach. No, calvinist I know say "you're not saved" if you don't believe in Calvinism...You're not saved if You're not born again! No one has the authority to pronounce anyone saved or unsaved! Our job is to preach the Gospel and trust the Holy Spirit to save His sheep...They will hear his voice. Those of you that would cause division, I'd warn you twice...and then have nothing more to do with you.
TheRegulator1984 1 year ago
@Regulator Calvinism promotes a different gospel than found in the bible ("Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you"), Paul pronounces an eternal curse in Gal1:7-9 on anyone who preaches a false gospel. Calvinism also asserts that God creates certain people for the sole purpose of casting them into hell in order to glorify himself - such an assertion blasphemes God's character. If you think these issues don't affect someone's salvation then you're ignorant of God's word & the A /C debate.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!! You're a funny guy...funny! Maybe you're just ignorant as to what Calvinism teaches. You must just skip over John ch 6, 10, 17. Rom 8:28-30 and ch 9! And many other verses that speak of predestination and election. The word elect doesn't mean "one choosing" it mean "chosen. The word "church" doesn't mean all who profess him...it means "called out ones" who called them out?
TheRegulator1984 1 year ago
@Regulator I'm funny & you're ignorant. I don't "skip over" any verses nor do I change words like "all, every, whosoever, everybody, the world, everyone, etc" to mean "a few" as Calvnisits do to promote their theological rubbish. God indeed predestines, calls, convicts, draws, justifies, etc but that doesn't negate the fact that man can CHOOSE to reject it all & instead die in his sins. Wake up & smell your apostasy & stop changing God's word to conform to your condemned gospel & heresies.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe You obviously believe in universalism and would benefit from listening to Dr. James White on subjects concerning the Greek meanings of words, rather than your universalism type world view...people like you are such a waste of time. You would rather cause division than actual TEACH the bible. You seem more concerned in exalting yourself, than exalting Christ...pathetic and depraved and don't even know it.
TheRegulator1984 1 year ago
@TheRegulator More ignorance - I'm not a universalist , & James White couldn't exegete his way out of wet parchment. I can reconcile & my doctrines with the ENTIRE bible & I don't have to change, ignore, or evade any scriptures to do it - but if you think he can do better than you did here, then have him come & try to defend his stupidity himself.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@TheRegulator1984 You certainly speak the truth about Jack,but he's actually an OPEN THEIST who only believes all means all when it suits him,he doesn't believe all means all in John 6:37
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe John 6:37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
All God chooses to give to Jesus, comes to Jesus and Jesus keeps them all saved.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN Your false misinterpretation of Jn6:37 has already been refuted. Not every bible verse contains the enitre salvation process & it's verses like these that Calvinists search for to insert their blasphemous doctrines into the bible. The Father "gives them to Christ" by a very specific process - He convicts ALL men of their sin & need for a Savior & calls them to repentance, those who CHOOSE to repent are given to Christ for regeneration. The verse does NOT say "God picks some to destroy"
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@JWolfe None of the verses in John 6 ever mention once that God is giving people to Christ where man first had to choose,it says it perfectly clear,God gave who He decided to give to Jesus,man is just the object being given,he plays no part in his salvation.Don't you see it's your kind that has to add or subtract from these verses to insert YOUR FALSE DOCTRINE?It just proves the Bible correct again when it says the natural man can neither KNOW or UNDERSTAND the things of God because you don't.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN Remember Jack,according to Jesus all the Father gives to Him are saved by Him.God doesn't draw all men according to scripture,because if God draws everyone,as you claim,then ALL MEN WOULD BE SAVED and we both agree that not all will be saved.So the problem again has been explained already,you can't understand because God has not saved you or drawn you to Jesus.You chose another god with your "free will',the only kind you could choose,a false god.Jack you are still in your sins,scary!
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN God doesn't draw all men according to scripture,because if God draws everyone,as you claim,then ALL MEN WOULD BE SAVED"
The darkness that grips your mind is staggering. Since salvation is a GIFT, it can be refused - the ONLY thing that limits salvation is the choice of each individual to receive it or not. It's such a simple concept & repeated DOZENS of times throughout the bible but you ignore them all & blaspheme the God who gives man the freedom to choose. What a blind wretch.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe " The verse does NOT say "God picks some to destroy"
The Bible is very clear,the reason people aren't saved is because God never draws them,He just lets them have their way and leaves them alone with their "free will".It also says ALL who are drawn to Jesus have irrevocable ever lasting life,more of the GOSPEL you don't believe.Is this how you witness?You may or may not receive eternal life but it's according to your "free will' whether you get to keep it or not?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN "The Bible is very clear,the reason people aren't saved is because God never draws them"
You're a liar, the bible says no such thing. That's a blasphemous idea that came from the darkened mind of a murderer named John Calvin who himself got it from a demon . It contradicts CHRIST Himself Who said "If I be lifted up I will draw ALL men unto Me." The true gospel is in Acts`17:30 "God charges ALL people EVERYWHERE to repent." The only reason people aren't saved is because they refuse it
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe Twist,twist,All MEN means Gentiles and Jews ,EVEN THE Jewish BELIEVERS were amazed to find out Jesus died for the Gentiles too.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
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JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@CBALLEN NONE of the following verses are "twisted" - they include EVERY person who proceeds from Adam:
Acts17:30 the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands ALL men EVERYWHERE to repent
1Tim4:10...Who is the Savior of ALL men, especially those who believe
1Jn2:2 ..... He is the propitiation for OUR sins: & not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD.
2Cor5:15 ... And He died for ALL...
1Tim2:6 ..the Man Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself a ransom for ALL.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
Rom3:24 ALL are justified & made upright & in right standing with God freely & gratuitously by His grace
Heb2:9...that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for EVERYONE.
Romans 8:32 ..He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us ALL
Isa53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray... the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us ALL..
Acts10:43 through his name WHOSOEVER believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Rom5:6..in due time Christ died for the ungodly (all men)
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
Jn3:16, For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that WHOEVER believes in Him should not perish
2Cor5:14...we judge thus: that if One died for ALL, then all died;
Rom10:13... For EVERYONE who shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Heb10:10.. sanctified thru the offering of Christ once for ALL
1Jn4:14 .....the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of THE WORLD.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
Acts10:43 WHOSOEVER believes in him shall receive remission of sins.
1Tim2:4 God our Savior...Who wishes ALL men to be saved
Jn12:46 .....I am come a light into the world, that WHOSOEVER believes on Me should not abide in darkness.
Acts2:21 WHOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Titus2:11 .....salvation has appeared to ALL men,
2 Pet3:9 .....He is not willing that ANYONE should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
Rom5:18 as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one Man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal & right standing with God & life for ALL men.
This verse especially highlights Calvinism’s changing of God’s word to promote their blasphemous doctrines - they accept that the 1st “all” refers to all men but change & limit the 2nd “all” to mean only “a chosen few.” Such a rendering not only disagrees with the rest of scripture but it renders the verse grammatically incoherent.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
No one denies your ability to make choices. Our position is that you can only make choices in accordance to your nature. The scriptures state that you are in slavery Jn 8:31-47 and are spiritually dead Ep 2:1-9. You do not have the ability to believe unless God grants it Jn 6:44,65 Ep 2:8 or even the desire to believe (Rom 9:12). In the same way Lazarus (Jn 11:41-44) could not resurrect himself to obey Jesus "...come forth" God must resurrect you (Jn 3:3) before you can 'choose Him'.
jofandkerstin 1 year ago
@jofandkerstin 1st, the resurrection of Lazarus has to do with resurrection (!) NOT salvation - ALL will be resurrected. 2nd, spiritual death can't be equated with physical death - the prodigal's father said, "This my son who was DEAD is alive again." Spiritual death is defined as separation from the Father, it doesn't involve losing one's volition or will - the prodigal CHOSE to return to the father to have life again.3rd, God does grant repentance & faith but men can still choose to reject it.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
I think you've missed the whole point (again), it's not a matter of not having free will it’s a question of inability (Rom 3:11-12) Please provide an exegesis of the passages provided in my previous post. I find it really disturbing that you Armenians constantly attempt to rob God of his glory in salvation, provide arguments based on emotionalism and a paper thin understanding of scripture and then have the audacity to say Calvinists are not saved or are apostates...truly sad. Soli Deo Gloria.
jofandkerstin 1 year ago
@jofandkerstin It's YOU that misses the point: 1) Man is born separated from God & won't seek Him on his own, nor is he able to repair the relationship even if he did 2)God has supplied a way back to Himself thru Christ 3) God intervenes in each person's life, convicts them of their sin & need for a Savior and 4) calls them ALL to repentance 5) those who CHOOSE to respond are then given to Christ for regeneration. This isn't rocket science - try reading the book of Romans a 2nd time.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
if you paid the debt for someone, could anyone exact that debt from that person, which you have already paid? If the Redeemer paid the debt for all man's sins, how can God then require the debt to still be paid by any of them? Whom the Redeemer has redeemed, is redeemed indeed. Every soul that Jesus died to redeem will be redeemed. Clearly there being those for whom the eternal lake of fire awaits, demonstrates that Jesus clearly didn't die to redeem all of mankind-but only those who are his.
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@HermitintheRain The part that man must play in the salvation process is to simply choose to receive the gift that he could never earn or merit on his own. God draws, convicts, predestines, chooses, justifies, redeems, etc but the fact remains that man can choose to reject all that & instead die in his sins. God doesn't force a relationship with Himself on anyone, they can choose to reject salvation and God will honor their decision.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe you are right that man must receive it. yet even that willingness and ability is of the Lord. The book of Hosea is a beautiful picture of this. Ephraim who was given completely over to his idols would never come to the Lord of his own will. The Lord whose love for Ephraim would not just leave him forever in that state. As revealed in Hosea, the Lord through his mercy removed all his lovers/idols and then lure him into the wilderness.
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe Then at a time of the Lord's choosing visited Ephraim in the depths of his desolation and sorrow in that wilderness. In that hour of the Lord's visitation, the Lord then spoke comfortably to the heart of Ephraim, and in so doing, transformed his heart, and made him willing in the hour of his visitation. The Lord didn't force Ephraim. The Lord, by the power of his love for Ephraim, won Ephraim's heart through the wisdom of his providence upon his soul. So it is with all his people.
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe Psalm 107 is also a picture of how the Lord causes circumstances in our lives to arise to bring us to our knees in desperation so that all that we have is the Lord for hope. My will to choose the Lord is no better than any other reprobate sinner who openly rejects the Lord. Even my will, which is also depraved by the state of sin upon it will never choose the Lord, until the Lord in his mercy changes my state.
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe The Lord didn't force me in the sense of some tyrannt or rapist to obey him. The Lord however did work on my heart and my will through the mercy and beauty of love upon it. It is similar to the works of a man who through the careful courtship towards the woman of his love makes her willing to love him through such means. Song of Songs also shows this as well. By such mercy of love, when I was once unwilling, I find now that I desire nothing more than to obey him who loved me so.
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@HermitintheRain Yes, & God works in EVERYONE'S heart the same way to bring them to repentance - He wishes that no one would perish. But Calvinism falsely teaches that He leaves certain people in their helpless condition because He created them for the sole purpose of casting them into hell in order to glorify himself. This is a false, blasphemous mischaracterization of God's character and It's a false gospel ie, "Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you"
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe did you repent before or after the Holy Spirit changed your heart? if you state that you repented before then you exalt yourself above those who in their unregenerated state did not repent. Is your heart & your will wiser or stronger than the one whose heart was too foolish or weak to repent, whose heart did not choose Christ? Were you less of a reprobate than the rest of us who was willing and able to repent of their own sinful nature on their own?
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe when Spirit visited me i was made to see how dreadfully wicked i was. how i openly and vigorously rebelled and resisted God. there was not one true desire to follow and serve God. even back when i thought i was trying to be 'christian' it wasn't Christ i was serving, but rather my own selfish interests. But in God's mercy to my soul, he reshaped/regenerated my heart to make it want to serve him. I didn't ask God to do that. But I am sure thankful that he did.
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe In the gift of grace that God has poured upon me, I have found repentance as an essential nature of the faith that he has given me. I have found love for God where once there was hatred. I have found a will, that though it thought it was free at one time, was really a slave to sin. Since Jesus set my heart free, i find that my will has also been liberated. Ironically, in that liberation, I find that my will desires only to serve him who bought me with his blood
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe Jesus-the Truth that set me free indeed-has become my Lord to whom I willingly, by his work upon my soul, choose to be his bondservant. Before Christ set me free, my will was bound under the chains of sin. I couldn't choose anything but to sin. But when he set me free, my will became free for the first time in my life. With my freed will, I find I don't want anything but Christ's will for my life. I don't pray, Thy will be done according to my will, but thy will be done period.
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe When God declares that he raised up pharoah that he might display the power of his wrath-those aren't men's words-but the words of the Holy Spirit. When Isaiah tells us that God ransomed Egypt for Israel and gave Ethiopia for Jacob, that again is not man's words but the Holy Spirit showing God's sovereign will in effect of showing mercy to whom he will show mercy and compassion on whom he will have compassion.
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe whatever problems you have about God's electing grace is not with men, or with 'calvinists'. It is really problems you are having with God's own declaration of his purpose as revealed in his holy Scriptures. No one is preaching Christ MIGHT have died for you. The gospel is for God's elect-whom he not only will save, but absolutely must save. Christ will not lose one soul whom the Father calls and the Spirit brings to him. He shall not fail to save anyone the Father chooses.
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe But once you come to recognize your own sinfulness; how in yourself there was nothing in you that was ever going to come to God of its own volition; you will then be thankful and praising God for his electing grace upon your soul-knowing without which you would have been forever lost. You will say amen to knowing in your own soul that it is not to him that runneth, or to him that willeth; neither by the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God who shows mercy.
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe God does not work in everyone's heart the same way. That is a humanistic philosophy that basically obligates God to save anyone, even worse that he is obligated to save everyone. God doesn't owe anyone anything. That God has elected to show mercy on anyone is the demonstration of his glory in grace.
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@HermitintheRain Rambling gibberish, musings not of a hermit but of a heretic that needs to come in out of the rain. Christ died for ALL men, God calls them ALL to repentance, & those who CHOOSE to submit to His conviction are then given to Christ for regeneration. THAT'S bible truth, try reading it sometime without your ignorant Calvinistic presuppositions - you sound like a complete idiot.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe thank you for revealing the heart of hatred that still rests in you. the Lord be merciful to you in giving you deliverance from it. this here ends what i had hoped would be at least a civil conversation. in parting, study carefully the law of redemption. then look to Jesus the Redeemer and ask the Lord how he can die to redeem all of mankind and they not all be redeemed from their sins without him being a failure. The Lord shall not fail to redeem ever soul he died to redeem. shalom
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@HermitintheRain Nonsense, what you perceive as hatred is disgust of those who willfully oppose the truth & mislead others. And Jesus isn't a failure as you blasphemously portray Him, He successfully redeemed all mankind but doesn't force a relationship with God on anyone - He's not a rapist as you also blasphemously portray Him. You preach a false gospel & blaspheme God's character, Gal1:7-9 says not to wish anyone peace or godspeed who does so - so may the curse it pronounces be upon you.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe obviously you don't know how to read. cause if you had you wouldn't have made such lies against me. my words are clearly evident to the whole world that i didn't say such things. in fact i specifically clarified it. sadly you don't get it. don't bother responding. you are now blocked. God be merciful to you. i dust my feet of you.
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
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JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@Hermit Your convoluted arguments don't actually match your beliefs. Calvinists, like all cults, use the same terms as normal Christians but pour different meanings into them - terms like Justification, Sanctification, Sovereignty, Free Will, Grace, etc are all redefined. For example, Calvinists claim to believe in free will but what they mean is that God forces an irresistible change of heart on some so they will "freely" choose Him but withholds it from others, causing them to "freely" sin.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@HermitintheRain well amen to that!
prn72271 1 year ago
LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us. Isaiah 26:12
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Romans 5:1
What part did any of us contribute to that peace? It appears to me that the Holy Spirit is telling us that the LORD alone did it all. He called us, he chose us, he made us willing and able to believe in the day of his visitation, he justified us, he sanctified us.
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@HermitintheRain For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? 1 Corinthians 4:7
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:17
What good gift do you have-including the will and faith to follow the Lord-did you not receive from the Father of lights?
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
free will lol tell me of a female that can taste chocalate ho hos and not love them?? she dreams of them and the dollar store sells out of them. she chooses acording to her nature. IN the same way GOD transforms our GOD hating heart into a heart that loves jesus new nature imparted by the holy spirit. THIS is the great and mighty work of our sovreign GOD.no one can choose to love that wich they hate. GOD must do a great work!!!
mknghbrs010 1 year ago
it is very simple christ found me i but i thought i found him/chose him that was not the case he chose me. we generaly come to christ as arminians then by gods grace we become calvinists when we realize he drew us to himself, that the change in our heart toward GOD only occured due to a supernatural work of the HOLY SPIRIT. yes arminians are saved just doctrinially flawed calvinists simply attempt to do full justice to GOD and his great work. in this we fail because we canot give him enoughglory
mknghbrs010 1 year ago
"bizarre notion that free will doesn't exist"? You appeal to your own sinful heart. Slaves have no will of their own:
:But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin..." Ro 6:17
BereanDenver 1 year ago
@BereanDenver Rom 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
So we are slaves to sin for we sin but an unregenerate person can do good. Would you conclude that a man who takes care of his family is sinning by doing so?
prn72271 1 year ago
@bullawaya I completely agree that the bible gives us instructions and maybe, "conditions." And I believe that all Christians must adheer to these. (The question is, are we capable to not?) However, nobody is saved by doing these things. That is my point. We are saved by Christ's sacrifice for us, he paid our debt. I fully agree that one cannot go on sinning unrepentantly, but the reason for this is grattitude, not selfishness (Saving oneself).
ChloeTurmoil 1 year ago
@ChloeTurmoil beautifully simple!
BereanDenver 1 year ago
@bullawaya Trust me, the more I look into calvinism, the more confused I get.
Non elect babies go to hell and if a child is raped, it was ORDAINED BY GOD!?!?
prn72271 1 year ago
Once again, can u please explain Romans 9 to me?
bigcpop74 1 year ago
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@bigcpop74 not asking me, that is...
prn72271 1 year ago
I think He has all the say so, in all matters. Except for who will be saved? Hmmmm. The clay tells the potter what's what in that issue. Hmmmm. (Clay)- I chose you God. (Potter)- Ok my creation its all up to you. You get the glory for your excellent decision. I guess thats what Romans chapter nine means. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob all chose God? Hmmmm.
bigcpop74 1 year ago
@bigcpop God supplied a salvation thru Christ that no one could earn or merit for themselves and offers it as a gift for whosoever wills - and you characterize reaching out to accept the gift as man "glorifying himself"? Hmmmmmm. I challenge you to find one quote from any Arminian from the last 2000 years that gives the glory for their salvation to anyone but God. A drowning man reaching out to grasp a lifeline doesn't walk away boasting how he "saved himself". Get real.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe Brother Jack, I apologize if i offended you. I'm reading my post and it seems a bit condescending, that was not my intent. Do me a favor and read Rom. 9 and explain to me what it means.
bigcpop74 1 year ago
@bigcpop74 I know you are asking me but In order to fully understand Romans 9 one must look up all of what Paul referenced and read the stories in totality. Also you have to read the whole of Romans. One this is for sure is that Esau never served Jacob personally.
prn72271 1 year ago
@bigcpop In context, Rom9 is part of a discourse by Paul about God's selection of Israel (Jacob) over the Gentiles (Esau) to bear testimony about Him to the world & to be the nation which brings forth the Messiah. It's not about personal salvation, which is instead by invitation NOT by decree. But it's quite typical of Calvinists to cite such instances of God's sovereign acts & then inappropriately try to stretch them into the area of personal salvation - all to prop up their shaky doctrines.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@bigcpop74 Deuteronomy 30:19 (New King James Version)
19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore CHOOSE life, that both you and your descendants may live;
Not one place in scripture does choosing God give anyone any reason glory, thats a foolish assumption. Again, the calvinising of the bible. Funny thing many calvinsints come off so very proud, If you are humble b4 God you will be humble b4 man.
prn72271 1 year ago
Also I would like to say that a calvinist praying for someone to be saved is the epitome of hypocrisy. There is no need to pray for the "elect" to be saved at all if they were chosen and predestined by Gods sovereign will.
prn72271 1 year ago
"Having people work for thier salvation. . ." huh?! Calvinists are doing this? How so? I think it is the other way around. If I am ultimately responsible for my salvation, am I not saving myself, working for my salvation?
ChloeTurmoil 1 year ago
":Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."
We could just as easily replace these names with Calvin or Luther. I must ask, where is the fruit of this debate??
Scripture says to be of one mind. The church proper and its subsequent "theology" has failed. Only God shows us truth through His indwelling Holy Spirit. Trust not man, but God.
katmariebokon 1 year ago
@katmariebokon As with one I am discussing with on here correctly showed-this passage is not applicable to this division. Calvinism is not the same as Arminianism. In this passage, those people preached the same exact message and gospel unless maybe Paul is seen preaching a different gospel message compared to Christ.
daveme7 1 year ago
I agree we should take our doctrine from the bible and not reading our own theology into the bible. With this, then when Paul quotes Psalms 14 and 53 about the sin nature that states there is none that seek after God and both chapters expressly denies the Arminian viewpoint of God uses omniscience to see who will choose Christ and who will reject christ. These passages conclusively disproves Arminian foreknowledge.
daveme7 1 year ago
Well, I suppose you could say this that maybe others do not see you as a Christian because of Calvinism despite the fact all Calvinists affirm repentance from the sin nature and faith in the finished work of Christ which by the way is not a part of TULIP or any other "Calvinistic" system. Before I became a Calvinist-I always viewed them as my brothers and sisters in Christ not agreeing on a not so easy to understand doctrines. Now as a Calvinist, do I view those who disagree any differantly?
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 You need to realize that Calvinism & Arminianism are irreconcilable belief systems & there can never be any true fellowship between the 2 camps. Calvinism has a different gospel than the bible's ("Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you"), & misportrays God as a narcissistic tyrant who glorifies himself by creating certain people for the sole purpose of casting them into hell. Believers are obligated to oppose such blasphemy & false gospels, not fellowship with their proponents.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe @JackMWolfe So when I ask you or others about foreknowledge, you and others will explain to me that God foreknows by looking through the corridor of time seeing whom willaccept and reject Christ because of his omniscience. So, when the Calvinist explains God looks through the corridor of time apart from time and sees no one ever accepting Christ so God elects some to be saved and only think election is to salvation-not condemnation
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 1st, the doctrine that God “looks down the corridor of time to see who will choose Him” isn’t in the bible. Rather, God has chosen ALL men for salvation in Christ, they are invited to accept Him in real time whenever God chooses to call them, & their decision determines their eternal destiny. The decision belongs completely to them - God doesn’t peer into the future to see what it will be. The result of the decision ie, life or death, is foreknown but not the actual decision itself.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
The scriptures disagrees with you. When bringing certain chapters describing sin such as there is none that seek after God-apparently as it not also opposes whoever defines foreknowledge as the omniscience of God as it also tends to oppose your own ideas of how God works. When there is none that seek after God and the Psalms are explicit as describing the fool who claims there is no God-how exactly does God offer them a choice when they already made a choice to disvbelieve a God exists?
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 To perhaps make the salvation process clearer: 1)man can't save himself, 2)God must provide a way for man 3)He has done so thru Christ 4)He calls all men to repentance 5)Without that call man will never choose God on his own 6)God even supplies the faith to believe 7)When he's called, man must make a decision to repent 8)If he does then God gives him to Christ for regeneration 9)he must continue to follow Christ. Salvation doesn't originate from man's will - but it ends when he decides.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe In other words, for the non Calvinist whether Arminian or not-God is not subjected to time sincew he created time but for the Calvinist God is limited by time and cannot stand outside of time as we are goiven a God who is subbjected to linear time as is often misapplied that God is somehow unfair for not giving people a chance to be saved and thus God is now evil. Yet in the non Calvinist viewpoint-God is never evil because God does give people a chance.
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 2nd, no one seeks God on their own, salvation is a work of the Holy Spirit to convict them of sin & call them to Christ - without God’s direct intervention no one could be or would even want to be saved (Rom3:10-12). However, although salvation doesn't ORIGINATE from man's will but from God's, it ENDS when man chooses to accept God's gift or not. God doesn't force a relationship with Himself on anyone - man can choose to die instead.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe I am kind of seeing this as still wanting to hold onto free will. Id o believe in free will as free will is the sin nature(knowledge of good and evil-see how this made Adam self righteous in departing and opposing God as Adam saw nakedness as sin and God called it good.)
daveme7 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe But then, what about these passages that teaches there is none whom seek after God? where in the scriptures does it teach God looks down to se if any accept Christ and follow God when the whole ideal of this is blasted by Psalms 3 and Psalms 14 and 53? Of course, in Psalms three it is a statement of fact where in those psalms-God asks these questions and the conclusion is:They have all gone back, they have become filthy, there is none that do good no not one
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 3rd The call to unity in 1Cor1 doesn’t apply to the A/C debate - Paul was warning about being factious in following men who had SOUND DOCTRINE ie, himself, Peter, Apollos etc. which doesn't apply to the C/A debate - the division is about fundamental bible doctrines not personality or style. Unity isn't an option with heresy, we're called to oppose false gospels and blasphemous misportrayals of God's character, not fellowship with the proponents of such errors.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe I do not disagree with you on 1 Cor 1 as much as fundamentalism was very much led by Calvinists starting with Meachem while at Prinecton through books and radio brodcasts, and sermons blasted modernism. The point is I have been trying to make all along-we will always disagree. when one side decides to judge the other as heretical is a bad thing when in the past both Calvinists and Arminians laid down differances to opposes modernism showing unity in the fundamentals of the faith.
daveme7 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe Let me then ask, God knew others would ot be saved whether God elects or not. This we can agree on that there will be people who God will throw into hell. God knew this before they(we) came inti existance-so nthen why did God allow this to happen since one way or the other they will go to hell? God knew Adam and Eve would rebel and as well as Lucifer-God knew this but he created them anyways?
daveme7 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe On a very much different note-what part o fCalvinism that was sometimes never taught by Calvin(only Christ dying for the elect) is a false gospel? Who, what, when, where, why. Maybe John Calvin taught a false gospel or Charles Spurgeon, Paul Bunyon, Jonathon Edwards, Matthew Henry, George Whitfield, William Carey, or adnoriam Judson-which one of thee preached a false gospel as some were responsible for the spread and beginning of missins form the USA?
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme7 4th, I would point out that the ministers you mentioned hypocritically preached the Armininian gospel instead of the limited one they actually believed. It's very similar to the Jehovah Witnesses & LDS who come to your door hiding their apostate beliefs behind a thin veneer of orhodoxy. Jesus warned that you'd know them by their fruits, engaging in such intentiional deception should serve as a big red flag that Calvinism doesn't proceed from God.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe This is where you are going to run into problems and becomes an intersecting point to me. Not saying you do this but often many will try to relate Calvinism yto some cult, other religion, philospophy which often is grasping at straws. Mormons and JW's thproughly agree with free will that most Calvinists deny. I think it is especially hilarious when pointoing to Augustine as an oinfluance i.e. a Catholic. Satanists, free will occults, emkergent church, Aliester Crowley, Anton Levay,
daveme7 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe All these including Roman Catholicism and the disciples of Christ whom influanced or have a direct line of influance in restoration doctrine all believe God has given man free will. As Mormons in Kirkland competed for disciples on the PA/OH border, Joseph Smith borrowed from DIC(no joke intended using initials). a man broke from the disciples which spawned Christedelphians and these spawned JW's. To me this is laughable to say these are related in actions.
daveme7 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe On a different note, John Calvin(to my knowledge) never preached Limited Atonement. When the scriptures taught we were to go into the whole world to preach the gospel to every creature, com[pel them to come in-this is where I see it is not about Calvinism or Armenianism but rather biblical. I mention these for one reason-often many will castigate over this as basically a lack of consistancy.
daveme7 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe Here is one example of being inconsistant-one time I was a Baptist and Fundamentalist(still am just more reformed) as many IFB churches teach only the KJV in english and most times view calvinism as heretical when this is all for naught when King James was a Calvinist and had mopre to do with the Synod of Dort thyen John Calvin as Calvin was dead 64 yrs when this Synod that created TULIP was called. For me it is not a point of trying to show someone is orthodox(to be cont)
daveme7 1 year ago
For me the whole point is consistancy especially from those who are against Calvi ism when most times somewhere in their library or something they read which was in fact taught, preached, written by a Calvinist. In other words, we can judge others all we want and yet not be consistent in our actions. I applaud you. I disagree, but I applaud you for stating they were hypocrites which is a lot better than not having a good answer and ignoring. I rather respect saying they were hypocrites.
daveme7 1 year ago
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JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@daveme7 As to fellowship between C's & A's. there can be no genuine fellowship with those who hold an unbiblical gospel & who blaspheme God's character. The only reason any exists is because the C's preach the Arminian gospel & hide their other unbiblical doctrines with a thin veil of orthodoxy eg, they claim to believe in free will - what they mean is 1)that God regenerates the elect so they'll then "freely" choose Christ 2)He lets the non-elect freely sin uninterrupted, then destroys them.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe This is where I truely think you do not understand what is going on with TULIP or Calvinism in general. TULIP defines the secret counsels of God in electing people to be saved. One thing many do not understand-TULIP is an apologetic not an affirmation of what the gospel teaches to save man. Besides this, it is a direct opposite teaching against remonstrance articles of which there was fiove(thus TULUP also containing five)
daveme7 1 year ago
@daveme 1st, Arminianism is an answer to Calvin’s heresy, not vice versa. 2nd, God’s will for man is openly declared ie, He desires ALL men to repent & be saved - He has no secret, predetermined, duplicitous will to cast some of them into hell in order to glorify himself. 3rd, God gave man free will because He desires relationship - pre-programmed robots can’t supply that. 4th, Adam wasn't created with a sin nature, 5th, God convicts ALL men of their sin & calls them ALL to repentance.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe On this, it is a bit incorrect as I also disagree with most Calvinists in these regards. They teach a sort of moral pressing upon sinners that we are unable to choose righteousness or perverted by the sin nature that all decisions are not amoral but are evil. I do believe in free will and do believe it came from God but I believe God never intended us to have free will. Go look at the standard definitions of free will and then look in Genesis three how
daveme7 1 year ago
@JackMWolfe On free will and sin, look in Genesis three to see how the sin nature worked through Adam and Eve. For the most part, the knowledege of good and evil I do believe is the sin nature. In other words, free will is the sin nature. Basically this passes from God allowing people to continue in sin and than judging them. I see it as an absolute repudiation of God and Christ in rebellion and if they could every single one of us would be crying "Crucify, Crucify"
daveme7 1 year ago
One of many who do not understand the nature of redemption and the work of Christ. For it all made simple search youtube for the video "For Whom Christ Died" by True Blue Auctions.
trueblueauctions 1 year ago
@trueblue Why don't you give everybody a quick summary of what you wrote there - from what you've displayed in other videos eg, your misunderstanding of the difference between physical & spiritual death, not many are going to bother plodding through reams of the same kind of sophomoric prattle. Redemption is indeed very simple - it's for whosoever wills.
JackMWolfe 1 year ago