You fool, Biology and Science is closer to decoding the DNA chain for GTAC amino acids for each and every cell and it's purpose. Once the gay gene or moron gene is found there will be designer babies from screened sprem and eggs. Or de-gened births to stop gays and other from ever being born. Think it won't happen???? I bet you are now wishing I was dead or was never born, well your wish wil come true one day but for now I have more respect for your Rights than you do for my life.
And you're wrong. I don't support men being violent towards women.
Let the female anti abortion types be violent against female pro abortion types and the men towards the men.
And is it not PRO ABORTS that support violence against women???????
It was one of you POS that killed my wife & unborn child!!!
I make it clear IRL that if a pro abort comes near me I take it as a serious threat to my life. You bort heads killed my family and I don't doubt you'd kill me, had you the chance.
Some interesting things pro choicers have done. 1,251 homicides and other killings 157 attempted homicides 28 arsons and firebombings 904 assaults 1,908 sex crimes (including 250 rapes) 106 kidnappings 420 cases of vandalism 1,616 medical crimes A good chunk of those were done by Actual abortionists like the ones I've already listed. And I don't just hate pro aborts, I hate pedophiles, rapists, murderers, etc. Well most of those are pro choice any ways.
Interesting quote from Margret Sanger, you know the founder of planned parenthood and Admitted nazi supporter. Sanger: "I think the greatest sin in the world is in bringing children into the world" Listen to the whole thing yourselves. /watch?v=xlTR9EvXsgE 50 seconds in. Scary, very scary. And she's who essentially started the pro choice movement. Speaks volumes for the pro abort cause. Abortion, AKA modern day eugenics. Congrats pro aborts, you've far surpassed hitler.
Nicholas Kampf. 54, and his wife, Lola, 53 of North Yarmouth, Maine, tied their daughter up, loaded her in their car and headed toward New York to force her to get an abortion.
Google it for the rest of the story.
As for what happened to my pregnant wife it was something similar to this:
/watch?v=WKe14jtpbbY
Except she was pushed in front of a car.
You pro aborts are All scum, pedophiles, murderers, and rapists.
Big bully in the video said mean things to you booo hooo hoooo.
Be happy he wasn't pro choice or he would've attacked you and probably killed you while you were just holding a sign and talking.
Or in the case of LA abortionist Ivan Namihas, raped you. or maybe like Chicago abortionist Richard Ragsdale, who made kiddie porn featuring his own THREE year old daughter.
And you bort heads wonder why men AND women like me hate you so much.
@ThomasJS1 You're lumping a lot of very different people together. It's clear you aren't really opposing a single philosophy, but are ranting and raving against everyone you dislike as if they were all part of some massive organized conspiracy that had weekend meetings and afternoon tea.
You really should seek therapy for your paranoid delusions and anger management issues. The way things stand now you're a danger to yourself and others.
You know that little skank like you, that killed my family is now in prison but, only for my wifes murder. So I figured I'd have to get justice for my daughter on my own. Won't be long now till she's shanked in prison. LOL.
Please do say more. Everything you pro aborts say to me makes me hate all of you more and more, everything you say makes me want you all dead.
You do know pro lifers are winps right? They wouldn't even stand up for Roeder, who finally stopped being a winp and became an anti-abort.
There are 2 sides of the "anti choice" side. Wimps and ppl like me.
I even met someone who's wife sais she was having an abortion, he responded by putting a gun to her head and saying if she did the next time the gun would be loaded and he'd squize the trigger. He now has full custody. Wonderful isn't it.
So you're pro life now? I was calling pro lifers pussies. Choier/aborters I call sub human beasts or monsters or my favorite those who make Hitler look like Ghandi.
You're right though, I can't be any more full of hatred. Burying your family kinda does that to you. Knowing pro aborts have been waging war against the innocent & defenseless does that.
History has taught me what it really takes to have true peace. And protests is not it.
There are a lot of men out there like me. A few with situations like mine but, most of them lost their children to abortion.
One thing all of them share is a deep anger and hatred for those responsible for their children being tortured to death or just killed like mine. That and a need for justice aka vengence.
That "bully" in the video is nothing compared to men driven over the edge of despair into pure hatred.
Are you saying that someone murdered your pregnant wife because of a poster? I don't see what this has to do with my personal right to control when I have sex, with whom I have sex, if I get pregnant and if I give birth and or parent.
Not to mention my right to quality medical care to help prevent me from dying from childbirth-related injuries!
You know that half of all women who have abortions are already mothers? You probably know and love women who have had abortions but they are too scared to ever tell you.
I know I can't change your mind. I think you are typing ugliness and hatred. Is that what *Pro-Life* means to you?
Don't fucking insult me. Calling me prolife is almost as bad as calling me pro choice.
Pro lifers are all pussies. 40 years of their pussy protest ways hasn't and wont change a thing.
You trash only care about death. And there are anti abortionists like myself who finally realized the only way to stop you is to give you all the only thing you care about, death.
we estimate that most pro-choice women in the USA have had abortions. So What Motivates Pro-Choice Women? Is it the love of God? Is it the love of humanity? Is it about the welfare of women in Africa? No, what motivates pro-choice women is their need to rationalize and self-justify their crime against nature, their crime against humanity, their crime against self, their crime against their child and their crime against God
I'm done with responding to you. You love these wild extrapolations, and they do nothing for serious debate. I've offered balanced and thoughtful statements, admitting that there are cons regarding my position. Any you prefer to make wild claims (man has no rights over a womans body = father having no rights regarding his child) that are total non sequiturs, they just do not follow. If you honestly believe that men are somehow disadvantaged as a group, I'm afraid there is just no point...
...debating because that is just so ludicrous to me. The gender divide may be closing, and that's a wonderful thing, but there's a long way before we approach true equality. I wish you well, I agree with some of your points, but I've got nothing left to say to you.
All of my "wild extrapolations" are supported by science and research. Your "balanced and thoughtful statements" are based on your feelings, yet you provide no support. Once again, you make an incorrect assumption. I never commented on man's rights regarding a woman's body - only on man's rights regarding his own child. Don't confuse your having nothing to say with an actual rebuttal.
although fetus' are not considered human beings, the pro-life nuts argue that each fetus is a "potential" human, or a "potential child"... so where do you draw the line? the egg cell of a woman is "potentially" half a child, just like a sperm cell from a man.
it wont be long before the right wing christians will want every man whos ever masturbated in his life arrested and convicted for mass murder for shooting out and killing a few thousand "potential" babies every time he jerks off! LOL XD
I am beautiful, wonderful, awesome, mysterious, fragile, tender, warm, vulnerable, miraculously perfect as well as fierce, strong, intelligent, compassionate, wise, loving powerful AND a mom.... and I support the reproductive freedom of all women. We are not incubators on 2 legs. We are individuals with free will.
Before you post, remember that "pro-choice" means the following: everyone has the right to: - unbiased sex education - freedom to choose who to love and who to have sex with - control their own reproduction - decide when/where/how they have children - safe accessible abortions on demand - high quality accessible childcare on demand - social, economic, and community support for their parenting on demand - reproductive technology on demand and every other reproductive right imaginable!
Hmm - I feel like I've read this before. Would you mind explaining how a father is able to "control his own reproduction", or "decide when/where/how he has children" when the mother of his baby has the baby legally killed without his having any legal recourse to stop it? And about "safe" abortions, can you explain how you would propose to protect mothers from the psychological and physical problems that result from and abortion?
True. Sex can be pleasurable but it's not FOR pleasure. What I mean to say is, and I'm sorry if I didn't make my self clear, is that sharing your body with more than one person, whom you've commiteed yourself to is a disrespect to yourself. Look at all of the problems that come from premarital sex. Sex is for procreation. I suggest you read an encyclical by the Pope. Humane Vitea and next year stick around for the Silent nor More awarness campaign they habve after these marches.
I don't think you guys understand the menaing of pro-choice. We're all "pro-choice". What you're really saying is that you want the freedom to share your body with anyone at anytime and defy the true purpose of intercourse.
Let's be honest. Birth control and abortion, so ardently championed by "Feminists", (not to be confused with "feminists"), have resulted in the wholesale exploitation and enslavement of women, and the slaughtering of innocent babies.
Wow! That's an incredible statement. Birth control is evil too? I have no response to such grandiose and inflammatory statements ("wholesale exploitation and enslavement""slaughtering"). I'm afraid there's no point continuing this my friend. I'm glad that your voice is in the vocal minority. Incidentally, if you'd taken the time to read my previous post, you'd notice that I allude to the fact that I include abortion among the other choices, all with associated pros and cons.
Bottom line: Woman's body, woman's choice. It enrages me that sanctimonious people like you will fight tooth and nail to ensure that every fetus is born, rail against birth control, then leave millions of men, women and children to waste away in poverty (See George W's anti abortion politics in the third world). Sure, lets oppress em, exploit their resources, and watch em starve, but by God we'll make sure they have no reproductive options! The day I see the pro life crowd marching for economic
...and social justice, you know, the shot at an actual decent life for all those fetus' you're so bloody fond of, that's the day I start to take you people seriously. Til then, take a hard look in the mirror, get off the high horse, and be honest about the dark places in your own soul, without damning others to conver your own dirty little secrets. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Has a nice ring to it doesn't it? I think I read that in a book once.
You obviously have no idea what I do for women in poverty, for unwed mothers, and women struggling, so you're best advised to refrain from judging what you don't know. What I do know, is that birth control hurts women, physically, and otherwise. Do you know how the birth control pill works on the woman's body? Why don't you and the mother of your children take some time to research that, and longterm effects, and then maybe you'd begin to understand the "exploitation and enslavement" comment.
I can assure you my spouse and I are well educated enough to know that the pill has risks and negatives associated with it, like anything else, a woman should weigh the pros and cons, risks and benefits before using it. To do that requires uncensored, unbiased information. However, I'm afraid that you'll really have to explain your ridiculous claim of exploitation and enslavement. To the un-indoctrinated, it just isn't obvious.
Haha. My imagination wanders at what it is that all those feminists are doing to your poor body (assuming you're a man). And I don't claim to make assumptions about your actions as an individual regarding the social and economic justice, if you make a positive contribution, I'm grateful to you for doing so (I have my doubts, as you seem like you want to make reproductive decisions for women). But the movement as a whole falls down dreadfully on this. The most public speakers against abortion...
...tend to also oppose almost any level of public services which would benefit the women, men, children, families who are marginalized in our societies and worldwide. You know, the less government, lower taxes, no abortion, death penalty crowd.
I'm a man, and I seem to have full choice about what to do with my body. If a man causes a woman to be pregnant, the pregnancy is inside HER body. Therefore, her choice, not his. If he's a real man, he'll be there, but the choice is hers.
what about the choice of the 883,000,000 people across the World that were abandoned since 1988? do you call genocide a progress to humanity? I guess children don't matter to you do they?
the unborn are people and need rights to! a human starts at conception! even without religion abortion is still wrong its killing a human being! and they need rights to!
that was a very bad thing to say! i am Pro-Life and i do not want to kill pro choice people or any one we are all people! "hate the sin not the sinner" pro-life people just want the baby to be saved because the baby is human! nothing justifies killing a human baby!
Compassion for women with unwanted pregnancies is NOT encouraging them to kill their babies. Do a little research on the after-effects, psychological and physical post-abortion. (If you don't know where to look - let me know - but start with Silent No More Awareness Campaign). There's more than just the mother's will here. There's a father. And a baby - a beautiful, wonderful, awesome, mysterious, fragile, tender, warm, vulnerable, miraculously perfect wee baby.
I trust women to make the right decision. I find it absurd that anyone could suggest that any woman casually uses abortion as birth control. I will always respect the world view of anyone who morally objects to abortion. But as long as the fetus is unviable outside of it's mother (in other words, as long as the fetus needs the mother's body to survive), it's a part of her body and not an independent human life. The law agrees with me. I'm a man and a father of 2. I can't imagine how grueling...
...it would be to make that decision. Therefore, like I said, I trust individual women to make that decision, and I whole-heartedly support their right to the choice. Oh ya, and I'm proud to be Canadian, home of Dr. Henry Morgentaler, Member of the Order of Canada.
Got it - I see where you stand on women's rights - but what about the rights of fathers? One more thing - you say "as long as the fetus, {a.k.a. "baby"} needs the mother's body to survive), it's a part of her body and not an independent life". You do realize that science doesn't back you up on that? And further to that point, all babies depend on their mothers/fathers/caregivers to feed and change and protect them. Does that make ALL dependents, big and small, fair game for abortion?
Science does back me up I'm afraid. The very earliest documented surviving premature birth is well into the second trimester (about 22 weeks I believed) and anything before 26 weeks is extremely rare. Therefore, your final point is absurd. I personally don't have any problem with regulations against abortion beyond a certain point in the pregnancy without compelling reason (i.e. health risk to the pregnant woman).
In other words, the woman has time to choose before that point.
And what about the rights of fathers? I am a father, and I'm overjoyed with my wife's decision to have both our children. She sought my feelings about it (neither pregnancy was planned) and we both agreed that we wanted to proceed. But it was her body, not mine, that had to endure the pregnancy. She had serious complications to her health in the second pregnancy, that could have become life threatening.
Pregnancy and childbirth have risks and complications unique to the woman. Therefore, it should be the woman's choice. My right as a father is to BE a good father to the baby once he or she is born. If I'm a good, supportive man in a relationship with the mother, I can be involved along the way in the pregnancy as well.
Bottom line, let's all agree that we hope for the day when no abortion is necessary because all men and women, boys and girls have all the necessary education and support to avoid unwanted pregnancy, and every mother and father who decide to go through with a pregnancy have the full support of their community.
No, actually, science says that the baby is an independent life, from conception. If you want me to quote several current medical textbooks, just ask. Why is my final point absurd? Just using strong language without support makes for a vapid argument. You say you're proud to be Cdn, home of Morgentaler; do you realize that there is no abortion law in this country - for all 9 months of pregnancy? So, I can go to the abortion clinic at 40 weeks and ask them to kill my baby. Why not 41 weeks?
DADS - stand up for yourselves, and for your babies!! A baby needs his dad, right from the time he's conceived - PROTECT your baby, LOVE your baby, DEFEND your baby, STAND UP FOR YOUR BABY!!!! One can only discuss an issue starting with the facts: THE RESULT OF A SUCCESSFUL ABORTION IS A DEAD BABY!! An abortionist will tell you that, even if Planned Parenthood won't! Come on dads - be REAL MEN! Be REAL FATHERS!!
I never commented on whether a fetus was an independent life, only that it was un-viable apart from the body of the woman carrying it. However I would be sincerely curious to read something about what you say science has to say on the matter, as to me the term "independent life" would not seem to apply to something that can only survive if physically connected and protected within another being.
I do realize there is no law regarding abortion, and as you can read above, I've expressed the...
...opinion that there ought to be a law outlining parameters, so you've got no quarrel from me there. Incidentally, I believe your final point to be absurd because you make a leap which my earlier comments have already clarified. I wrote that the fetus is not independent until it could be viable outside the mother, therefore I have obviously already ruled out in my mind infanticide, which your are describing. For you to raise that spectre despite my having already obviously drawn the line is...
...obviously intended to inflame the debate, at least in my humble opinion. I honestly do share at least some of your disdain towards abortion. As Obama said at Notre Dame, I long for the day when it will be obsolete. But in the mean time, as I've said before, I trust women with that decision. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.
In your initial post, you used the word "independent"; the baby, at conception, is an independent human life from that of the mother or the father, (see The Developing Human, Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th Edition, Moore, Persaud, Saunders, 1998, research also Dr. Jerome Lejeune, Dr. Hymie Gordon, Sir William Liley - ask for more if you want them). I don't understand your argument: your one-month old baby was completely dependent on others for everything - food, drink, warmth - etc.
Don't you see the slippery slope in action? Parents have been given court permission to kill their own special needs' children! But all of this is secondary. The root issue is that a successful abortion results in a dead baby. Can you admit that? Agree to disagree? Would you say that we should agree to disagree about the slave trade? Should we agree to disagree about child prostitution? Some things are just wrong! About Obama - so far he's just talk - his actions contradict his words!
Let me take a step back here. We're getting into the classic polarized debate on this one, which is obvoiusly pointless. Regarding your points, I'll take your word for it about the references you quoted. For me there is a clear difference in terms of risks and impact on the woman with a fetus in utero and a baby post-partum. But what I'd like to say, more importantly, is I get what you're saying. I am pained by the thought of abortion. To imagine either of my children not being here...
...had their pregnancies been aborted is a chilling notion to me. I don't want abortions any more than you do. But given the potential emotional, physical, social risks and benefits of all options with a pregnancy (abortion, adoption, parenthood), and the fact that there are still so many disposable kids in our society (I work in mental health and see it every day), I will steadfastly defend the right of any woman to make that gruelling choice (I will never accept that abortion is used lightly..
...and therefore assume that she will have to balance the incredibly difficult path of abortion with her other options). That's my bottom line. Unless we can agree on a sweeping reform of social services, child care, health care, and mental health to ensure that every child born has the opportunity to live, grow, thrive, then to me the bigger moral issue will continue to be how we treat and discard the child after he or she is born, rather than whether we allow a woman to choose to end the...
...pregnancy before then. To me, it is morally indefensible to argue (as the Pope does) against abortion but then also against birth control! And in the poorest areas of the planet where AIDS runs rampant and he's guaranteeing deaths that will far suppass the number of abortions performed world wide over the same time frame. It seems I did get back into some of the heatedness which I was professing to try to avoid, but I guess that speaks to the heaviness of the issue. Like I said though...
...you and I agree that abortion is a terrible thing, and I would never wish it on any woman or couple to have to make that choice. History tells us that a woman in a desperate situation will sometimes choose a dangerous alternative. Better we provide safe alternatives. And if you'd like to discuss ways to make our society a kinder place for single moms, babies from poor families, better science based sex education for our boys and girls, then I'd love to engage with you about these sure fire...
...ways to reduce, prevent, eliminate the need for abortions in the first place. Here's hoping for something like this to be somewhat of a starting ground for real dialogue between "pro-life" and "pro-choice" camps.
You're suggesting that a woman be allowed the choice to kill her own baby if the circumstances warrant it - poverty, single motherhood, abuse, .. - but that is a flawed premise: 1) the psychological and physical problems on mothers, post-abortion, are many and serious. They compound, not solve, whatever problems she already had. 2) We cannot pretend to know how someone born into bad circumstances will turn out, (take Obama, Oprah). Work on poverty, abuse, etc. without killing innocent babies.
What the pope said about AIDS was accurate - and good scientists and doctors agree with him. (By good, I mean those who aren't financially profiting from saying otherwise). Try polling a random sample of 100 doctors and ask them if their sisters were sexually active with men known to have AIDS, if they'd tell their sisters to proceed, but using a condom. While mainstream media fails to mention it, check out the reduction of AIDS cases in Uganda and the ties to an abstinence ed. program.
Such bullshit. That sounds great, if those sisters could KNOW which man has AIDS and which doesn't. By all means, teach the merits of abstinence, monogamy, etc. The fact that these are the best ways to prevent STD's should be spread far and wide. But to suggest that any serious scientist would agree with his suggestion that condom use hurts rather than helps slow the spread of AIDS is pure delusion on your part. Extolling abstinence, safe sex, use of condoms in combination are essential.
Is the fact that you label my argument "bullshit" supposed to win me over - or convince me that I'm wrong? Dr. Edward Green, director of the AIDS Prevention Research Project at Harvard said "the pope is correct... the best evidence we have supports the pope's comments". Many others too, but I guess your source for news and information hasn't mentioned them. And rather than misquote me, and the pope, perhaps you should actually READ what he said. Your comments indicate that you haven't.
Your comments indicate that you've read selectively. Dr. Green certainly does not argue against the distribution of condoms, but states that distributing them without comprehensive education and prevention measures could indeed lead to a false sense of security and an increase in sexual partners. He's not against condom use, but for fact based education.
Abstinence ed, partner reduction, delaying intercourse for young people, are all fine by me, so long as telling the whole truth, not just the church sanctioned version. Education and choice, not indoctrination.
Can you please itemize what you mean by "education"? As far as indoctrination goes, it appears Planned Parenthood, (motivated by PROFIT, PROFIT, PROFIT), has done a good job of indoctrinating most abortion advocates.
Sure. Education means fully informing all boys and girls, men and women from the earliest ages (with age appropriate information of course) about the pros and cons of sexual activity, risks in terms of STD's, emotional risks, birth control, etc. Teaching that sexuality is a wonderful but precious part of human existence. Teaching kids that they are the boss of their own body and no-one has the right to interfere with that. Teaching adolescent boys and girls about abstinence and "waiting" as...
the only sure fire birth control, but also teaching them about the options available should they make the choice. Raising awareness about sexual images in media, body image, sexist and misogynist ideals that do great harm to boys and girls, men and women. Teaching them that their worth has nothing to do with their appearance and that intimacy is best shared only with those who appreciate their true worth. Providing full, unbiased information about all aspects of reproductive health...
...including risks of failure of various birth control options as well as health risks and side effects (i.e. from the pill). Information, as you have rightly suggested, about the risks associated with abortion. Access to counselling for women and their partners regardless of her choice on the matter. I'm sure I could think of more, but I think that's a pretty good synopsis of my idea of what good, rounded sex education should look like.
So, when you speak of "risks" of abortion, do you mean informing mothers that their chance of miscarrying post-abortion is twice what it was before? Do you mean informing mothers about the real possibility of cervical incompetence post-abortion? Do you mean informing mothers about the increased risk of ectopic pregnancies and breast cancer? Do you mean informing women of the 15 psychological risk factors associated with abortion? If you want studies to support each of these, let me know.
And about the "procedure" itself? Should a woman be told that, depending on the procedure, "a leg might be ripped off the fetus as it is pulled through the cervix and out of the woman. The process of evacuating the fetus piece by piece continues until it has been completely removed" (abortionist explaining D & C procedure to Sup. Crt - Gonzales vs. Carhart 2007). Should a woman be told that often the baby is alive when the "doctor" starts tearing him/her apart? (abortionist Dr. Martin Haskell)
When a person is going to have heart surgery, he is given a detailed video of exactly what happens before, during, and after the procedure. This is true for every procedure EXCEPT abortion. Do you have any guesses why this might be the case? If you haven't seen videos of the various procedures, I recommend you do so that you can argue from fact rather than rhetoric.
Thanks for the clarificiation, 721Randy. Indeed the information is available for every procedure, and your doctor should make it available to you, (although sometimes you just have to ask), EXCEPT for abortion. Also, just to clarify, I didn't say THREE videos were available, (as in before, during, and after the procedure, rather just A video). All the best.
What about my arguments suggest that I employ a church-sanctioned version? Indeed, I attempt to argue from sound science and reason. If you review your posts, it would appear that your arguments are largely based on "feelings". As someone wiser than I said, "feelings make wonderful servants, but terrible masters". Whether you're aware of it or not, it appears that you use Planned Parenthood talking points as your source. Lest there be any confusion, PP is motivated by PROFIT - not compassion.
Yes - I'm all for education! Try talking to any number of women who have had anabortion. Ask them what "education" they received from the abortion provider before the "procedure". What information was she given about the baby's development? About the detrimental after-effects of the abortion? About the psychological effects? And as you have not been able to admit, you want choice for the woman, but not the man - nor the baby. Apparently the man is not privy to information or choice.
I have no problem with admitting it. If we're talking about the choice on how to proceed with a pregnancy, then no, the man has no choice. A woman is pregnant, the pregnancy is in her body, it's her choice. I've said that several times here, so I'm not sure why you feel I've not been able to admit it. I'm sure in most situations, the man likely can have input, discuss with the woman, but I believe wholeheartedly that it's her choice in the end.
As far as the choice of the "baby" I guess I'll just have to say that I believe that there's a window between conception and, lets say somewhere mid-second trimester in which there is time to allow a pregnant woman the opportunity to make an informed choice about her pregnancy. In my opinion, she has a fetus inside her, a potential human life, but she also has a weighty responsiblity to ensure that she is able to parent that child or to give that child up for adoption. On the other hand...
...she must weigh whether she's able to have an abortion (I've commented above that all these options carry significant consequences). Obviously, blackbetts, this is where you and I differ fundamentally. I don't believe the fetus is a human child yet, therefore, (to answer your question) no, that fetus has no right to choose (though I'm sure almost every single woman who goes through that choice does agonize over the "what if's" of the potential of the fetus she's carrying).
Finally, as I've said before, men have plenty of choice regarding our sexual health. But I see no reason why I should have any rights to make a decision regarding someone else's body, even if I'm the one with whom that "someone" is pregnant. If I don't want a pregnancy aborted, I have the right to: 1) Use a condom 2) engage in respectful, monogomous relationships 3) discuss reproductive "wants" within these relationships
Do you see now why I say the pendulum has swung too far? The first feminists were not arguing for men to have NO rights, rather for men and women to have EQUAL rights. Here you are, a man in the year 2009, boldly proclaiming for all and sundry that "man has no choice" about his own child! It's fine for men to get rich off killing innocent babies and scarring their mothers - you ardently defend those men, but heaven forbid you defend the right of a father to defend and protect his own offspring!
No, I don't see that the pendulum has swung to far, I think my reasons for that are well outlined above. This is still a "man's world" by any objective measure, so I feel like the rights of my brothers and I are well protected. Thanks for your concern. The rest of your post is grotesque and inflammatory and unworthy of response.
I continue this discussion because I am concerned that the truth about the abortion industry is not being told, and your replies make that abundantly clear. What is GROTESQUE about my post - the words of the ABORTIONISTS about a procedure carried out over 3000 times DAILY? You're guilty of shooting the messenger here, but your disgust is good - it's just misdirected. Was it the after-effects of abortion that you found grotesque? The industry profits by keeping parents mis/uninformed.
@halleyscomet Welcome to the discussion! Regrettably, you're making the same presumption some of my previous interlocutors made. I don't HAVE a rocket, (actually or euphemistically). I've given birth to 4 children, and I have 2 deceased children. Before you make an attack on me, based on your false assumptions, take the time to read the entirety of my posts. Thanks! And all the best.
don't forget that you're the one getting into a great big huff about an assumption on your part. Where did you get the idea that abortion is someone's idea of an easy "oh whatever' choice to use AS contraception. You are clearly irrational because you're leaping to one narrow conclusion, and that is it. there is no point arguing with someone like you.
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there is no getting into a huff, this is a life we are talking about and it isn't a simple decision. don't argue with me then cause i wasn't even arguing in the first place lol. when you talk about another life there is no being irrational. well i have seen it happen often, people fail to use proper contraceptives and end up pregnant and not really understanding abortion and just go out and get one. one girl i knew had 4 in a row in one year..
Someone who does anything that significant with such frequency probably has other issues... And, since you're so judgemental, do you really think that person would make a good mother? What exactly is your argument here? She SO clearly doesn't want a kid, yet you'd force her to have it?
You using this "example" as a basis for everything you believe is the same as that asshole old man being the reality of all anti-choicers.
ha the same could be said for some others. any person could have the potential of being a good parent, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to be a parent. if she so clearly doesn't want a kid then use protection end of story. that's all i have to say about it and i am not like that man cause i would never say anything like that so you can shove that perspective up your ass.
You just told me to shove something up my ass. Are you really sure you're different than that man?
Regardless, I suggest you speak to a doctor about the possible failures of contraception. You are still so clearly misinformed to think that it can never fail if used properly. Worse, you are still convinced its your business to get involved in other people's lives.
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i'm pro life but i don't condone what you was told by that man that was horrible. that's the problem though everyone sees people who are pro life as christians and people who shove things into your face. sure you can have sex and do what you want but my main point is if you are going to have sex take precautions to prevent pregnancy including using a condom and taking the pill. there are no excuses for not protecting yourself. abortion is used as a contraceptive and that is so wrong
16 years ago, my family doctor gave me bad info about 'the pill'. I got pregnant while still in university. I had been in a relationship with the father since I was 15. The pregnancy may have been unplanned but I _chose_ to become a parent. I didn't choose to be a single parent - but that's how things worked out.
I would never force someone to choose parenting or adoption or abortion. It's not my place to judge.
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well then the only thing in that case would be to not sleep about with whoever you feel like doing so. if contraception is used correctly then yes it will protect against pregnancy, if they fail there is the pill up to 72 hours afterwards and the coil up to 5 days afterwards. I can't judge but if someone really cares enough about their freedom and bodies and the choice on their reproduction freedom then use protection, theres plenty out there and theres no excuse for not using whats avaiable.
Sometimes you don't know contraception has failed until WELL after 5 days. Like, *after* your next scheduled period. Hormone based contractions can fail if you have a medical condition, or are taking contradicting meds are not informed by a doctor. As an aside, you have no right to judge someone's choice re sexual partner, EVER! Even people in love do not necessarily want to grow fetus together, and that is their business, NOT yours.
whoops - that was supposed to be "hormone based contraception"...
I'm typing too fast out of frustration with so much blind, interfering ignorance out there in the world.
If you don't like abortions, don't have them. What other people do with their lives is NONE of your business. If we have a world of forced pregnancy, I wonder if we should have forced adoptive parenting, as well. Yeah, that would be messed up... just like anything else involving telling someone how to live their life.
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it's not just their life once a child is brought into the world. it's not ignorance on the part of caring for an unborn child, it's ignorance on the part of people who are so careless as to let unplanned pregnancy happen. if people care so much about being pro choice then they should be pro protection based ideals instead of being like oh damn well we can get an abortion anyways, once that child is there it's not just their life any more another life is present.
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no because if i was to sleep about i would use contraceptives to protect myself from unwanted pregnancy and stds, now someone who doesn't do that is not taking care of their body, plain and simple. who wants stds like aids etc
well it is true i dont know where you come from but in the uk, there needs to be a lot more sex education because it is all that happens here. btw what u mean by immaterial?
Oops - I see why your argument falls apart. it's in the premise - you say "everyone", but of course, that's completely inaccurate. You mean simply, "pregnant women". You see, you don't include fathers and babies in your "everyone". Discussion is great, but it's best to start with a solid premise.
I see. So, you've revised it now to say that men do NOT have the right to "control their own reproduction". Is that what you mean? I think I understand where you stand on women's rights, (at least grown women - obviously not women in the women), but are you able to clear up where you stand on father's rights and babies rights? Thanks!
You fool, Biology and Science is closer to decoding the DNA chain for GTAC amino acids for each and every cell and it's purpose. Once the gay gene or moron gene is found there will be designer babies from screened sprem and eggs. Or de-gened births to stop gays and other from ever being born. Think it won't happen???? I bet you are now wishing I was dead or was never born, well your wish wil come true one day but for now I have more respect for your Rights than you do for my life.
Wouldman2 1 year ago
PROWOMAN, PROFAMILY, PROCHOICE!
sarakai 2 years ago
Trigger Warning!
The comment section is full of sexism, death threats & anger including very hateful & vile statements advocating men's violence towards women.
Edited to add:
After reporting ThomasJS1's comments to the police a YouTube admin consequently deleted some of this worst screed.
Don't let the anti-choice bullies silence us! Report their threats & actions to police.
Each woman deserves control over her own reproductive health.
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
Yeah, I've seen this idiot Thomas on other sites. He's a joke, a bad joke but still to be laughed at.
Laugh with me!! hahahahahaha
jesusisbling 2 years ago
And you're wrong. I don't support men being violent towards women.
Let the female anti abortion types be violent against female pro abortion types and the men towards the men.
And is it not PRO ABORTS that support violence against women???????
It was one of you POS that killed my wife & unborn child!!!
I make it clear IRL that if a pro abort comes near me I take it as a serious threat to my life. You bort heads killed my family and I don't doubt you'd kill me, had you the chance.
ThomasJS1 2 years ago
*shivers*
I only HOPED death on pro aborts. BTW that's protected by the first ammendment. Have you read it? No I didn't think so.
However I have gotten emails from pro aborts like you, though not you obviously that were Actual death threats. Here I'll quote one for you.
"abortion is my right!!! how about I track you down and stab you to death"
But, I can't expect more from pedophiles like you and :
/watch?v=WKe14jtpbbY
ThomasJS1 2 years ago
ThomasJS1 2 years ago
ThomasJS1 2 years ago
@ThomasJS1 You, sir, are absolutely hilarious.
budgiefly1 1 year ago
Edited:
You forgot to mention that I hate All pro aborfs, MEN and women.
I should mention there Are women like me, who want pro aborts dead. Why?
Because they were dragged into abortion clinics right here in the US by thier rapists or husbands & BFs against their will.
The abortionists didn't care about the women so called right to choose they only cared about getting payed.
Why don't you read up on women who hate abortion. You'll find women are far more violent than I am.
ThomasJS1 2 years ago
Here's some for you to google unless you fear the truth that is. If so feel free to delete it.
David A. Gillis, 36, was sentenced to 18 months to two years in prison for felony child abuse after he posed as the
father of a 16-year-old girl whom he was sexually abusing and signed consent forms for an abortion at an Omaha
abortion clinic.
Here's another one
ThomasJS1 2 years ago
Nicholas Kampf. 54, and his wife, Lola, 53 of North Yarmouth, Maine, tied their daughter up, loaded her in their car and headed toward New York to force her to get an abortion.
Google it for the rest of the story.
As for what happened to my pregnant wife it was something similar to this:
/watch?v=WKe14jtpbbY
Except she was pushed in front of a car.
You pro aborts are All scum, pedophiles, murderers, and rapists.
(Oh the dark thoughts that fill my mind daily.)
ThomasJS1 2 years ago
Big bully in the video said mean things to you booo hooo hoooo.
Be happy he wasn't pro choice or he would've attacked you and probably killed you while you were just holding a sign and talking.
Or in the case of LA abortionist Ivan Namihas, raped you. or maybe like Chicago abortionist Richard Ragsdale, who made kiddie porn featuring his own THREE year old daughter.
And you bort heads wonder why men AND women like me hate you so much.
Go wonder.
ThomasJS1 2 years ago
Another one.
Orstein Janezic murdered 51-year pro-life radio talk show host Jerry Simon. After shooting Simon through a window of his
home, she held police at bay with a pistol for six hours.
You fucks kill radio show hosts, rape people, are pedophiles, kill pregnant women like my wife. And you wonder why people like me despise you.
You put Hitler to shame. But, that's to be expected since Hitler followed Margaret Sanger's lead on eugenics.
Oh she founded Planned Parenthood BTW.
ThomasJS1 2 years ago
@ThomasJS1 You're lumping a lot of very different people together. It's clear you aren't really opposing a single philosophy, but are ranting and raving against everyone you dislike as if they were all part of some massive organized conspiracy that had weekend meetings and afternoon tea.
You really should seek therapy for your paranoid delusions and anger management issues. The way things stand now you're a danger to yourself and others.
halleyscomet 4 months ago
Comment removed
ThomasJS1 2 years ago
You know that little skank like you, that killed my family is now in prison but, only for my wifes murder. So I figured I'd have to get justice for my daughter on my own. Won't be long now till she's shanked in prison. LOL.
Please do say more. Everything you pro aborts say to me makes me hate all of you more and more, everything you say makes me want you all dead.
ThomasJS1 2 years ago
You do know pro lifers are winps right? They wouldn't even stand up for Roeder, who finally stopped being a winp and became an anti-abort.
There are 2 sides of the "anti choice" side. Wimps and ppl like me.
I even met someone who's wife sais she was having an abortion, he responded by putting a gun to her head and saying if she did the next time the gun would be loaded and he'd squize the trigger. He now has full custody. Wonderful isn't it.
ThomasJS1 2 years ago
Thanks for the video though. I get a good laugh every time I hear that guy say he hopes you die.
ThomasJS1 2 years ago
You are acting in an harassing manner. Please stop it.
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
I'm sure there's nothing I can do to fill you with more hate - it's obvious you're full up.
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
So you're pro life now? I was calling pro lifers pussies. Choier/aborters I call sub human beasts or monsters or my favorite those who make Hitler look like Ghandi.
You're right though, I can't be any more full of hatred. Burying your family kinda does that to you. Knowing pro aborts have been waging war against the innocent & defenseless does that.
History has taught me what it really takes to have true peace. And protests is not it.
The only problem is keeping that peace.
ThomasJS1 2 years ago
I shall take my leave now.
But, before I do, one last thing.
There are a lot of men out there like me. A few with situations like mine but, most of them lost their children to abortion.
One thing all of them share is a deep anger and hatred for those responsible for their children being tortured to death or just killed like mine. That and a need for justice aka vengence.
That "bully" in the video is nothing compared to men driven over the edge of despair into pure hatred.
Bye
ThomasJS1 2 years ago
@jennfarrsuperstar "it's obvious you're full up."
Nutbars like him always have more room for hate, especially when it's a woman daring to stand up to him.
halleyscomet 4 months ago
@ThomasJS1 "everything you say makes me want you all dead."
Is THAT what Jesus would do?
Or are you a follower of Mohamed?
halleyscomet 4 months ago
I like that old guy in the videos comments. LMAO.
I hope you pro aborts die too.
Georger Tiller the baby killer was killed. Still humming a jaunty tune because of it.
-
An angry, anti-abortion, Athiest. Who's child was murdered by one of you pro abort, pedophile sub-human pieces of trash.
ThomasJS1 2 years ago
Wow, you have sex with pedophiles?!?
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
Was referring to one of you pieces of shit killing my wife and child.
Apperantly you trash don't like people telling you the truth, so much so that you'd even kill one of us over a FUCKING POSTER.
IMHO you all deserve to take a ride in sparky.
ThomasJS1 2 years ago
Are you saying that someone murdered your pregnant wife because of a poster? I don't see what this has to do with my personal right to control when I have sex, with whom I have sex, if I get pregnant and if I give birth and or parent.
Not to mention my right to quality medical care to help prevent me from dying from childbirth-related injuries!
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
That's not what your vid was about you fucking pedo.
It's about someone wish death on you. I happen to agree with him, I hope you die, lmao.
I hope you wind up like Tiller the dead abortionist.
Hoping for a civil war so I can become the wind of death to all pro aborts/choicers.
Ah the though of it, the thought of vengence it brings a smile to my face.
ThomasJS1 2 years ago
You know that half of all women who have abortions are already mothers? You probably know and love women who have had abortions but they are too scared to ever tell you.
I know I can't change your mind. I think you are typing ugliness and hatred. Is that what *Pro-Life* means to you?
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
Don't fucking insult me. Calling me prolife is almost as bad as calling me pro choice.
Pro lifers are all pussies. 40 years of their pussy protest ways hasn't and wont change a thing.
You trash only care about death. And there are anti abortionists like myself who finally realized the only way to stop you is to give you all the only thing you care about, death.
ThomasJS1 2 years ago
I happen to be pro-woman so calling me a 'pussy' is a compliment. Thanks.
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
we estimate that most pro-choice women in the USA have had abortions. So What Motivates Pro-Choice Women? Is it the love of God? Is it the love of humanity? Is it about the welfare of women in Africa? No, what motivates pro-choice women is their need to rationalize and self-justify their crime against nature, their crime against humanity, their crime against self, their crime against their child and their crime against God
angelshoulders 2 years ago
I'm done with responding to you. You love these wild extrapolations, and they do nothing for serious debate. I've offered balanced and thoughtful statements, admitting that there are cons regarding my position. Any you prefer to make wild claims (man has no rights over a womans body = father having no rights regarding his child) that are total non sequiturs, they just do not follow. If you honestly believe that men are somehow disadvantaged as a group, I'm afraid there is just no point...
jrmitch11 2 years ago
...debating because that is just so ludicrous to me. The gender divide may be closing, and that's a wonderful thing, but there's a long way before we approach true equality. I wish you well, I agree with some of your points, but I've got nothing left to say to you.
jrmitch11 2 years ago
All of my "wild extrapolations" are supported by science and research. Your "balanced and thoughtful statements" are based on your feelings, yet you provide no support. Once again, you make an incorrect assumption. I never commented on man's rights regarding a woman's body - only on man's rights regarding his own child. Don't confuse your having nothing to say with an actual rebuttal.
blackbetts 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
although fetus' are not considered human beings, the pro-life nuts argue that each fetus is a "potential" human, or a "potential child"... so where do you draw the line? the egg cell of a woman is "potentially" half a child, just like a sperm cell from a man.
it wont be long before the right wing christians will want every man whos ever masturbated in his life arrested and convicted for mass murder for shooting out and killing a few thousand "potential" babies every time he jerks off! LOL XD
angelboi101 2 years ago
blackbetts - YOU are the one 'making assumptions about things you don't know'. I have been pregnant. I have given birth.
Hey-hey ho-ho
Pro-life men have got to go!
Hey-hey ho-ho
When you get pregnant let us know!
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
I am beautiful, wonderful, awesome, mysterious, fragile, tender, warm, vulnerable, miraculously perfect as well as fierce, strong, intelligent, compassionate, wise, loving powerful AND a mom.... and I support the reproductive freedom of all women. We are not incubators on 2 legs. We are individuals with free will.
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
Hmm - I feel like I've read this before. Would you mind explaining how a father is able to "control his own reproduction", or "decide when/where/how he has children" when the mother of his baby has the baby legally killed without his having any legal recourse to stop it? And about "safe" abortions, can you explain how you would propose to protect mothers from the psychological and physical problems that result from and abortion?
blackbetts 2 years ago 2
By the way, I've been dying to know. What did you say to him in response?
crashingbutnowave 2 years ago
heh. I corrected him very pollitely:
"My daughter is 14. I'm not pregnant now, sir"
I seriously said 'sir'!
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
True. Sex can be pleasurable but it's not FOR pleasure. What I mean to say is, and I'm sorry if I didn't make my self clear, is that sharing your body with more than one person, whom you've commiteed yourself to is a disrespect to yourself. Look at all of the problems that come from premarital sex. Sex is for procreation. I suggest you read an encyclical by the Pope. Humane Vitea and next year stick around for the Silent nor More awarness campaign they habve after these marches.
crashingbutnowave 2 years ago
I was raised Catholic and had my fill. I really don't believe that sex is 'for procreation'. That'd be too heternormative for my taste.
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
Truly sad the hate that was spewed from that man's mouth. He was acting in a religious spirit of death.
Filmmaker777 2 years ago
It's true. I don't know why you guys show up. We just walk by and laugh at you.
wwwlosercom 2 years ago
I don't think you guys understand the menaing of pro-choice. We're all "pro-choice". What you're really saying is that you want the freedom to share your body with anyone at anytime and defy the true purpose of intercourse.
Why defile your body like that?
crashingbutnowave 2 years ago
Not everyone shares your opinions. Sex can be about pleasure. Sex is anything but 'defiling' the body.
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
Let's be honest. Birth control and abortion, so ardently championed by "Feminists", (not to be confused with "feminists"), have resulted in the wholesale exploitation and enslavement of women, and the slaughtering of innocent babies.
blackbetts 2 years ago 2
Wow! That's an incredible statement. Birth control is evil too? I have no response to such grandiose and inflammatory statements ("wholesale exploitation and enslavement""slaughtering"). I'm afraid there's no point continuing this my friend. I'm glad that your voice is in the vocal minority. Incidentally, if you'd taken the time to read my previous post, you'd notice that I allude to the fact that I include abortion among the other choices, all with associated pros and cons.
jrmitch11 2 years ago
Bottom line: Woman's body, woman's choice. It enrages me that sanctimonious people like you will fight tooth and nail to ensure that every fetus is born, rail against birth control, then leave millions of men, women and children to waste away in poverty (See George W's anti abortion politics in the third world). Sure, lets oppress em, exploit their resources, and watch em starve, but by God we'll make sure they have no reproductive options! The day I see the pro life crowd marching for economic
jrmitch11 2 years ago
...and social justice, you know, the shot at an actual decent life for all those fetus' you're so bloody fond of, that's the day I start to take you people seriously. Til then, take a hard look in the mirror, get off the high horse, and be honest about the dark places in your own soul, without damning others to conver your own dirty little secrets. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Has a nice ring to it doesn't it? I think I read that in a book once.
jrmitch11 2 years ago
You obviously have no idea what I do for women in poverty, for unwed mothers, and women struggling, so you're best advised to refrain from judging what you don't know. What I do know, is that birth control hurts women, physically, and otherwise. Do you know how the birth control pill works on the woman's body? Why don't you and the mother of your children take some time to research that, and longterm effects, and then maybe you'd begin to understand the "exploitation and enslavement" comment.
blackbetts 2 years ago 2
I can assure you my spouse and I are well educated enough to know that the pill has risks and negatives associated with it, like anything else, a woman should weigh the pros and cons, risks and benefits before using it. To do that requires uncensored, unbiased information. However, I'm afraid that you'll really have to explain your ridiculous claim of exploitation and enslavement. To the un-indoctrinated, it just isn't obvious.
jrmitch11 2 years ago
Woman's body, woman's choice. Man's body .....? Feminists! But eventually, the pendulum will swing the other way, thankfully.
blackbetts 2 years ago 3
Haha. My imagination wanders at what it is that all those feminists are doing to your poor body (assuming you're a man). And I don't claim to make assumptions about your actions as an individual regarding the social and economic justice, if you make a positive contribution, I'm grateful to you for doing so (I have my doubts, as you seem like you want to make reproductive decisions for women). But the movement as a whole falls down dreadfully on this. The most public speakers against abortion...
jrmitch11 2 years ago
...tend to also oppose almost any level of public services which would benefit the women, men, children, families who are marginalized in our societies and worldwide. You know, the less government, lower taxes, no abortion, death penalty crowd.
jrmitch11 2 years ago
I'm a man, and I seem to have full choice about what to do with my body. If a man causes a woman to be pregnant, the pregnancy is inside HER body. Therefore, her choice, not his. If he's a real man, he'll be there, but the choice is hers.
jrmitch11 2 years ago
what about the choice of the 883,000,000 people across the World that were abandoned since 1988? do you call genocide a progress to humanity? I guess children don't matter to you do they?
joeb0 2 years ago
according to you I mean. And what was up with the coat hangers and the "atheism gave us open heart surgery" sign?
joeb0 2 years ago
the unborn are people and need rights to! a human starts at conception! even without religion abortion is still wrong its killing a human being! and they need rights to!
ricksonboy 2 years ago
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ricksonboy 2 years ago
that was a very bad thing to say! i am Pro-Life and i do not want to kill pro choice people or any one we are all people! "hate the sin not the sinner" pro-life people just want the baby to be saved because the baby is human! nothing justifies killing a human baby!
ricksonboy 2 years ago
If you force a woman to gestate a pregnancy against her will you are denying her humanity.
I think compassion for women with unwanted pregnancies is essential - no matter their choices.
This isn't a simple issue, and I don't think any religion has the answer.
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
Compassion for women with unwanted pregnancies is NOT encouraging them to kill their babies. Do a little research on the after-effects, psychological and physical post-abortion. (If you don't know where to look - let me know - but start with Silent No More Awareness Campaign). There's more than just the mother's will here. There's a father. And a baby - a beautiful, wonderful, awesome, mysterious, fragile, tender, warm, vulnerable, miraculously perfect wee baby.
blackbetts 2 years ago
Chickydrum - I find it very disturbing when people bring up the "irresponsibility" of women during the abortion debate.
***Children are NOT punishment for irresponsible behaviour.*** Each child deserves to be wanted and loved.
childeofpoetry 2 years ago 5
I trust women to make the right decision. I find it absurd that anyone could suggest that any woman casually uses abortion as birth control. I will always respect the world view of anyone who morally objects to abortion. But as long as the fetus is unviable outside of it's mother (in other words, as long as the fetus needs the mother's body to survive), it's a part of her body and not an independent human life. The law agrees with me. I'm a man and a father of 2. I can't imagine how grueling...
jrmitch11 2 years ago 2
...it would be to make that decision. Therefore, like I said, I trust individual women to make that decision, and I whole-heartedly support their right to the choice. Oh ya, and I'm proud to be Canadian, home of Dr. Henry Morgentaler, Member of the Order of Canada.
jrmitch11 2 years ago 2
Got it - I see where you stand on women's rights - but what about the rights of fathers? One more thing - you say "as long as the fetus, {a.k.a. "baby"} needs the mother's body to survive), it's a part of her body and not an independent life". You do realize that science doesn't back you up on that? And further to that point, all babies depend on their mothers/fathers/caregivers to feed and change and protect them. Does that make ALL dependents, big and small, fair game for abortion?
blackbetts 2 years ago
Science does back me up I'm afraid. The very earliest documented surviving premature birth is well into the second trimester (about 22 weeks I believed) and anything before 26 weeks is extremely rare. Therefore, your final point is absurd. I personally don't have any problem with regulations against abortion beyond a certain point in the pregnancy without compelling reason (i.e. health risk to the pregnant woman).
jrmitch11 2 years ago
In other words, the woman has time to choose before that point.
And what about the rights of fathers? I am a father, and I'm overjoyed with my wife's decision to have both our children. She sought my feelings about it (neither pregnancy was planned) and we both agreed that we wanted to proceed. But it was her body, not mine, that had to endure the pregnancy. She had serious complications to her health in the second pregnancy, that could have become life threatening.
jrmitch11 2 years ago
Pregnancy and childbirth have risks and complications unique to the woman. Therefore, it should be the woman's choice. My right as a father is to BE a good father to the baby once he or she is born. If I'm a good, supportive man in a relationship with the mother, I can be involved along the way in the pregnancy as well.
jrmitch11 2 years ago
Bottom line, let's all agree that we hope for the day when no abortion is necessary because all men and women, boys and girls have all the necessary education and support to avoid unwanted pregnancy, and every mother and father who decide to go through with a pregnancy have the full support of their community.
jrmitch11 2 years ago
No, actually, science says that the baby is an independent life, from conception. If you want me to quote several current medical textbooks, just ask. Why is my final point absurd? Just using strong language without support makes for a vapid argument. You say you're proud to be Cdn, home of Morgentaler; do you realize that there is no abortion law in this country - for all 9 months of pregnancy? So, I can go to the abortion clinic at 40 weeks and ask them to kill my baby. Why not 41 weeks?
blackbetts 2 years ago
DADS - stand up for yourselves, and for your babies!! A baby needs his dad, right from the time he's conceived - PROTECT your baby, LOVE your baby, DEFEND your baby, STAND UP FOR YOUR BABY!!!! One can only discuss an issue starting with the facts: THE RESULT OF A SUCCESSFUL ABORTION IS A DEAD BABY!! An abortionist will tell you that, even if Planned Parenthood won't! Come on dads - be REAL MEN! Be REAL FATHERS!!
blackbetts 2 years ago
I never commented on whether a fetus was an independent life, only that it was un-viable apart from the body of the woman carrying it. However I would be sincerely curious to read something about what you say science has to say on the matter, as to me the term "independent life" would not seem to apply to something that can only survive if physically connected and protected within another being.
I do realize there is no law regarding abortion, and as you can read above, I've expressed the...
jrmitch11 2 years ago
...opinion that there ought to be a law outlining parameters, so you've got no quarrel from me there. Incidentally, I believe your final point to be absurd because you make a leap which my earlier comments have already clarified. I wrote that the fetus is not independent until it could be viable outside the mother, therefore I have obviously already ruled out in my mind infanticide, which your are describing. For you to raise that spectre despite my having already obviously drawn the line is...
jrmitch11 2 years ago
...obviously intended to inflame the debate, at least in my humble opinion. I honestly do share at least some of your disdain towards abortion. As Obama said at Notre Dame, I long for the day when it will be obsolete. But in the mean time, as I've said before, I trust women with that decision. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.
jrmitch11 2 years ago
In your initial post, you used the word "independent"; the baby, at conception, is an independent human life from that of the mother or the father, (see The Developing Human, Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th Edition, Moore, Persaud, Saunders, 1998, research also Dr. Jerome Lejeune, Dr. Hymie Gordon, Sir William Liley - ask for more if you want them). I don't understand your argument: your one-month old baby was completely dependent on others for everything - food, drink, warmth - etc.
blackbetts 2 years ago
Don't you see the slippery slope in action? Parents have been given court permission to kill their own special needs' children! But all of this is secondary. The root issue is that a successful abortion results in a dead baby. Can you admit that? Agree to disagree? Would you say that we should agree to disagree about the slave trade? Should we agree to disagree about child prostitution? Some things are just wrong! About Obama - so far he's just talk - his actions contradict his words!
blackbetts 2 years ago
Let me take a step back here. We're getting into the classic polarized debate on this one, which is obvoiusly pointless. Regarding your points, I'll take your word for it about the references you quoted. For me there is a clear difference in terms of risks and impact on the woman with a fetus in utero and a baby post-partum. But what I'd like to say, more importantly, is I get what you're saying. I am pained by the thought of abortion. To imagine either of my children not being here...
jrmitch11 2 years ago
...had their pregnancies been aborted is a chilling notion to me. I don't want abortions any more than you do. But given the potential emotional, physical, social risks and benefits of all options with a pregnancy (abortion, adoption, parenthood), and the fact that there are still so many disposable kids in our society (I work in mental health and see it every day), I will steadfastly defend the right of any woman to make that gruelling choice (I will never accept that abortion is used lightly..
jrmitch11 2 years ago
...and therefore assume that she will have to balance the incredibly difficult path of abortion with her other options). That's my bottom line. Unless we can agree on a sweeping reform of social services, child care, health care, and mental health to ensure that every child born has the opportunity to live, grow, thrive, then to me the bigger moral issue will continue to be how we treat and discard the child after he or she is born, rather than whether we allow a woman to choose to end the...
jrmitch11 2 years ago
...pregnancy before then. To me, it is morally indefensible to argue (as the Pope does) against abortion but then also against birth control! And in the poorest areas of the planet where AIDS runs rampant and he's guaranteeing deaths that will far suppass the number of abortions performed world wide over the same time frame. It seems I did get back into some of the heatedness which I was professing to try to avoid, but I guess that speaks to the heaviness of the issue. Like I said though...
jrmitch11 2 years ago
...you and I agree that abortion is a terrible thing, and I would never wish it on any woman or couple to have to make that choice. History tells us that a woman in a desperate situation will sometimes choose a dangerous alternative. Better we provide safe alternatives. And if you'd like to discuss ways to make our society a kinder place for single moms, babies from poor families, better science based sex education for our boys and girls, then I'd love to engage with you about these sure fire...
jrmitch11 2 years ago
...ways to reduce, prevent, eliminate the need for abortions in the first place. Here's hoping for something like this to be somewhat of a starting ground for real dialogue between "pro-life" and "pro-choice" camps.
jrmitch11 2 years ago
You're suggesting that a woman be allowed the choice to kill her own baby if the circumstances warrant it - poverty, single motherhood, abuse, .. - but that is a flawed premise: 1) the psychological and physical problems on mothers, post-abortion, are many and serious. They compound, not solve, whatever problems she already had. 2) We cannot pretend to know how someone born into bad circumstances will turn out, (take Obama, Oprah). Work on poverty, abuse, etc. without killing innocent babies.
blackbetts 2 years ago
What the pope said about AIDS was accurate - and good scientists and doctors agree with him. (By good, I mean those who aren't financially profiting from saying otherwise). Try polling a random sample of 100 doctors and ask them if their sisters were sexually active with men known to have AIDS, if they'd tell their sisters to proceed, but using a condom. While mainstream media fails to mention it, check out the reduction of AIDS cases in Uganda and the ties to an abstinence ed. program.
blackbetts 2 years ago
Such bullshit. That sounds great, if those sisters could KNOW which man has AIDS and which doesn't. By all means, teach the merits of abstinence, monogamy, etc. The fact that these are the best ways to prevent STD's should be spread far and wide. But to suggest that any serious scientist would agree with his suggestion that condom use hurts rather than helps slow the spread of AIDS is pure delusion on your part. Extolling abstinence, safe sex, use of condoms in combination are essential.
jrmitch11 2 years ago
Is the fact that you label my argument "bullshit" supposed to win me over - or convince me that I'm wrong? Dr. Edward Green, director of the AIDS Prevention Research Project at Harvard said "the pope is correct... the best evidence we have supports the pope's comments". Many others too, but I guess your source for news and information hasn't mentioned them. And rather than misquote me, and the pope, perhaps you should actually READ what he said. Your comments indicate that you haven't.
blackbetts 2 years ago
Your comments indicate that you've read selectively. Dr. Green certainly does not argue against the distribution of condoms, but states that distributing them without comprehensive education and prevention measures could indeed lead to a false sense of security and an increase in sexual partners. He's not against condom use, but for fact based education.
jrmitch11 2 years ago
No - once again you're making assumptions about something you don't know. I have read extensively what Dr. Edward Green said on the issue. I simply
needed to correct your error about what the pope said. Have you read the entirety of what the pope said on the matter?
blackbetts 2 years ago
Abstinence ed, partner reduction, delaying intercourse for young people, are all fine by me, so long as telling the whole truth, not just the church sanctioned version. Education and choice, not indoctrination.
jrmitch11 2 years ago
"Education and choice, not indoctrination. "
ditto!
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
Can you please itemize what you mean by "education"? As far as indoctrination goes, it appears Planned Parenthood, (motivated by PROFIT, PROFIT, PROFIT), has done a good job of indoctrinating most abortion advocates.
blackbetts 2 years ago
Sure. Education means fully informing all boys and girls, men and women from the earliest ages (with age appropriate information of course) about the pros and cons of sexual activity, risks in terms of STD's, emotional risks, birth control, etc. Teaching that sexuality is a wonderful but precious part of human existence. Teaching kids that they are the boss of their own body and no-one has the right to interfere with that. Teaching adolescent boys and girls about abstinence and "waiting" as...
jrmitch11 2 years ago
the only sure fire birth control, but also teaching them about the options available should they make the choice. Raising awareness about sexual images in media, body image, sexist and misogynist ideals that do great harm to boys and girls, men and women. Teaching them that their worth has nothing to do with their appearance and that intimacy is best shared only with those who appreciate their true worth. Providing full, unbiased information about all aspects of reproductive health...
jrmitch11 2 years ago
...including risks of failure of various birth control options as well as health risks and side effects (i.e. from the pill). Information, as you have rightly suggested, about the risks associated with abortion. Access to counselling for women and their partners regardless of her choice on the matter. I'm sure I could think of more, but I think that's a pretty good synopsis of my idea of what good, rounded sex education should look like.
jrmitch11 2 years ago
So, when you speak of "risks" of abortion, do you mean informing mothers that their chance of miscarrying post-abortion is twice what it was before? Do you mean informing mothers about the real possibility of cervical incompetence post-abortion? Do you mean informing mothers about the increased risk of ectopic pregnancies and breast cancer? Do you mean informing women of the 15 psychological risk factors associated with abortion? If you want studies to support each of these, let me know.
blackbetts 2 years ago
And about the "procedure" itself? Should a woman be told that, depending on the procedure, "a leg might be ripped off the fetus as it is pulled through the cervix and out of the woman. The process of evacuating the fetus piece by piece continues until it has been completely removed" (abortionist explaining D & C procedure to Sup. Crt - Gonzales vs. Carhart 2007). Should a woman be told that often the baby is alive when the "doctor" starts tearing him/her apart? (abortionist Dr. Martin Haskell)
blackbetts 2 years ago
When a person is going to have heart surgery, he is given a detailed video of exactly what happens before, during, and after the procedure. This is true for every procedure EXCEPT abortion. Do you have any guesses why this might be the case? If you haven't seen videos of the various procedures, I recommend you do so that you can argue from fact rather than rhetoric.
blackbetts 2 years ago
Actually, this is not true for every procedure except for abortion! I have experienced several surgeries and have never seen a video pre or post.
721Randy 2 years ago
Thanks for the clarificiation, 721Randy. Indeed the information is available for every procedure, and your doctor should make it available to you, (although sometimes you just have to ask), EXCEPT for abortion. Also, just to clarify, I didn't say THREE videos were available, (as in before, during, and after the procedure, rather just A video). All the best.
blackbetts 2 years ago
What about my arguments suggest that I employ a church-sanctioned version? Indeed, I attempt to argue from sound science and reason. If you review your posts, it would appear that your arguments are largely based on "feelings". As someone wiser than I said, "feelings make wonderful servants, but terrible masters". Whether you're aware of it or not, it appears that you use Planned Parenthood talking points as your source. Lest there be any confusion, PP is motivated by PROFIT - not compassion.
blackbetts 2 years ago
Yes - I'm all for education! Try talking to any number of women who have had anabortion. Ask them what "education" they received from the abortion provider before the "procedure". What information was she given about the baby's development? About the detrimental after-effects of the abortion? About the psychological effects? And as you have not been able to admit, you want choice for the woman, but not the man - nor the baby. Apparently the man is not privy to information or choice.
blackbetts 2 years ago
What do we mean by 'education'? Are you serious? ...with Bristol Palin on the cover of this week's People magazine?
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
I have no problem with admitting it. If we're talking about the choice on how to proceed with a pregnancy, then no, the man has no choice. A woman is pregnant, the pregnancy is in her body, it's her choice. I've said that several times here, so I'm not sure why you feel I've not been able to admit it. I'm sure in most situations, the man likely can have input, discuss with the woman, but I believe wholeheartedly that it's her choice in the end.
jrmitch11 2 years ago
As far as the choice of the "baby" I guess I'll just have to say that I believe that there's a window between conception and, lets say somewhere mid-second trimester in which there is time to allow a pregnant woman the opportunity to make an informed choice about her pregnancy. In my opinion, she has a fetus inside her, a potential human life, but she also has a weighty responsiblity to ensure that she is able to parent that child or to give that child up for adoption. On the other hand...
jrmitch11 2 years ago
...she must weigh whether she's able to have an abortion (I've commented above that all these options carry significant consequences). Obviously, blackbetts, this is where you and I differ fundamentally. I don't believe the fetus is a human child yet, therefore, (to answer your question) no, that fetus has no right to choose (though I'm sure almost every single woman who goes through that choice does agonize over the "what if's" of the potential of the fetus she's carrying).
jrmitch11 2 years ago
Finally, as I've said before, men have plenty of choice regarding our sexual health. But I see no reason why I should have any rights to make a decision regarding someone else's body, even if I'm the one with whom that "someone" is pregnant. If I don't want a pregnancy aborted, I have the right to: 1) Use a condom 2) engage in respectful, monogomous relationships 3) discuss reproductive "wants" within these relationships
Just to name a few options
jrmitch11 2 years ago
Do you see now why I say the pendulum has swung too far? The first feminists were not arguing for men to have NO rights, rather for men and women to have EQUAL rights. Here you are, a man in the year 2009, boldly proclaiming for all and sundry that "man has no choice" about his own child! It's fine for men to get rich off killing innocent babies and scarring their mothers - you ardently defend those men, but heaven forbid you defend the right of a father to defend and protect his own offspring!
blackbetts 2 years ago 3
No, I don't see that the pendulum has swung to far, I think my reasons for that are well outlined above. This is still a "man's world" by any objective measure, so I feel like the rights of my brothers and I are well protected. Thanks for your concern. The rest of your post is grotesque and inflammatory and unworthy of response.
jrmitch11 2 years ago
I continue this discussion because I am concerned that the truth about the abortion industry is not being told, and your replies make that abundantly clear. What is GROTESQUE about my post - the words of the ABORTIONISTS about a procedure carried out over 3000 times DAILY? You're guilty of shooting the messenger here, but your disgust is good - it's just misdirected. Was it the after-effects of abortion that you found grotesque? The industry profits by keeping parents mis/uninformed.
blackbetts 2 years ago
The "grotesque" quote I was referring to was:
"It's fine for men to get rich off killing innocent babies and scarring their mothers - you ardently defend those men."
jrmitch11 2 years ago
@blackbetts "heaven forbid you defend the right of a father to defend and protect his own offspring!"
Heaven forbid you wrap your rocket and only impregnate women who actually WANT to have a child with you.
Be careful what you ask for. Do you REALLY want a world where women have to file false charges of rape against you in order to get an abortion?
halleyscomet 4 months ago
@halleyscomet Welcome to the discussion! Regrettably, you're making the same presumption some of my previous interlocutors made. I don't HAVE a rocket, (actually or euphemistically). I've given birth to 4 children, and I have 2 deceased children. Before you make an attack on me, based on your false assumptions, take the time to read the entirety of my posts. Thanks! And all the best.
blackbetts 4 months ago
don't forget that you're the one getting into a great big huff about an assumption on your part. Where did you get the idea that abortion is someone's idea of an easy "oh whatever' choice to use AS contraception. You are clearly irrational because you're leaping to one narrow conclusion, and that is it. there is no point arguing with someone like you.
saturnsays000 2 years ago 2
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there is no getting into a huff, this is a life we are talking about and it isn't a simple decision. don't argue with me then cause i wasn't even arguing in the first place lol. when you talk about another life there is no being irrational. well i have seen it happen often, people fail to use proper contraceptives and end up pregnant and not really understanding abortion and just go out and get one. one girl i knew had 4 in a row in one year..
chickydum 2 years ago
Four in a row...
and you don't think that's an excessive anomaly.
Someone who does anything that significant with such frequency probably has other issues... And, since you're so judgemental, do you really think that person would make a good mother? What exactly is your argument here? She SO clearly doesn't want a kid, yet you'd force her to have it?
You using this "example" as a basis for everything you believe is the same as that asshole old man being the reality of all anti-choicers.
saturnsays000 2 years ago
ha the same could be said for some others. any person could have the potential of being a good parent, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to be a parent. if she so clearly doesn't want a kid then use protection end of story. that's all i have to say about it and i am not like that man cause i would never say anything like that so you can shove that perspective up your ass.
chickydum 2 years ago
You just told me to shove something up my ass. Are you really sure you're different than that man?
Regardless, I suggest you speak to a doctor about the possible failures of contraception. You are still so clearly misinformed to think that it can never fail if used properly. Worse, you are still convinced its your business to get involved in other people's lives.
saturnsays000 2 years ago 2
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i'm pro life but i don't condone what you was told by that man that was horrible. that's the problem though everyone sees people who are pro life as christians and people who shove things into your face. sure you can have sex and do what you want but my main point is if you are going to have sex take precautions to prevent pregnancy including using a condom and taking the pill. there are no excuses for not protecting yourself. abortion is used as a contraceptive and that is so wrong
chickydum 2 years ago
I favour reproductive freedom.
16 years ago, my family doctor gave me bad info about 'the pill'. I got pregnant while still in university. I had been in a relationship with the father since I was 15. The pregnancy may have been unplanned but I _chose_ to become a parent. I didn't choose to be a single parent - but that's how things worked out.
I would never force someone to choose parenting or adoption or abortion. It's not my place to judge.
Pregnant women need support.
No blame.
No shame.
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
Neither condoms or the pill protect against pregnancy 100%.
Abortion is not used as a contraceptive AND even if it was who are you to judge?
ishutmyeyes 2 years ago 6
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well then the only thing in that case would be to not sleep about with whoever you feel like doing so. if contraception is used correctly then yes it will protect against pregnancy, if they fail there is the pill up to 72 hours afterwards and the coil up to 5 days afterwards. I can't judge but if someone really cares enough about their freedom and bodies and the choice on their reproduction freedom then use protection, theres plenty out there and theres no excuse for not using whats avaiable.
chickydum 2 years ago
Sometimes you don't know contraception has failed until WELL after 5 days. Like, *after* your next scheduled period. Hormone based contractions can fail if you have a medical condition, or are taking contradicting meds are not informed by a doctor. As an aside, you have no right to judge someone's choice re sexual partner, EVER! Even people in love do not necessarily want to grow fetus together, and that is their business, NOT yours.
Your worldview is harmful.
saturnsays000 2 years ago 3
whoops - that was supposed to be "hormone based contraception"...
I'm typing too fast out of frustration with so much blind, interfering ignorance out there in the world.
If you don't like abortions, don't have them. What other people do with their lives is NONE of your business. If we have a world of forced pregnancy, I wonder if we should have forced adoptive parenting, as well. Yeah, that would be messed up... just like anything else involving telling someone how to live their life.
saturnsays000 2 years ago
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it's not just their life once a child is brought into the world. it's not ignorance on the part of caring for an unborn child, it's ignorance on the part of people who are so careless as to let unplanned pregnancy happen. if people care so much about being pro choice then they should be pro protection based ideals instead of being like oh damn well we can get an abortion anyways, once that child is there it's not just their life any more another life is present.
chickydum 2 years ago
There is no such thing as an "unborn child" - it's called a fetus.
ishutmyeyes 2 years ago 4
the word fetus comes from latin for young one......
chickydum 2 years ago
"careless as to let unplanned pregnancy happen" .. can you stop playing the blame game, kthksbai
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
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blame game, there is no game, this is carelessness plain and simple.
chickydum 2 years ago
"sleep about with whoever you feel like" "no excuse "
Hmm... sounds kinda judgemental to me.
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
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no because if i was to sleep about i would use contraceptives to protect myself from unwanted pregnancy and stds, now someone who doesn't do that is not taking care of their body, plain and simple. who wants stds like aids etc
chickydum 2 years ago
It's none of YOUR business.
ishutmyeyes 2 years ago 3
chickydum - This whole "sleep about" argument of yours is judgmental and immaterial.
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
well it is true i dont know where you come from but in the uk, there needs to be a lot more sex education because it is all that happens here. btw what u mean by immaterial?
chickydum 2 years ago
I do agree with you on the need for more sex education, everywhere.
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
My pro-choice philosophy...
Everyone has the right to:
- unbiased sex education
- control their own reproduction
- decide when/where/how they have children
- safe accessible abortions on demand
- high quality accessible childcare on demand
- social, economic, and community support for their parenting on demand
- reproductive technology on demand
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
Oops - I see why your argument falls apart. it's in the premise - you say "everyone", but of course, that's completely inaccurate. You mean simply, "pregnant women". You see, you don't include fathers and babies in your "everyone". Discussion is great, but it's best to start with a solid premise.
blackbetts 2 years ago
Funny that you *think* you know what I mean. Men need/deserve:
• unbiased sex education
• high quality accessible childcare on demand
• social, economic, and community support for their parenting on demand
• reproductive technology on demand .
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
I see. So, you've revised it now to say that men do NOT have the right to "control their own reproduction". Is that what you mean? I think I understand where you stand on women's rights, (at least grown women - obviously not women in the women), but are you able to clear up where you stand on father's rights and babies rights? Thanks!
blackbetts 2 years ago
Correction - "I think I understand where you stand on women's rights, (at least grown women - obviously not women in the womb),..."
blackbetts 2 years ago
Chickydum - my saying that your "sleep about" argument is judgmental and immaterial means it doesn't matter why a woman gets pregnant.
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
Three of the many problems with contraceptives are:
1) They're REALLY hard on your hormone levels and cause all kinds of related hormone imbalances the longer you use them.
2) They're not completely effective against either pregancy or STDs.
3) They can act as an abortifacient - they can allow fertilization to occur, but not implantation.
blackbetts 2 years ago
Pointed out by Michelle on facebook: another guy shouts 'nazi' off camera at 0:38
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
Another "WOW" from the pro-choice contingent...
We didn' thave any such loonies at the WPG event, just one older woman using her life experience against us "ignorant" young'uns...
:Eugh: But still, NOTHING like this "gentleman"... gross.
BUT GREAT video!!! I'm re-posting!! =-)
saturnsays000 2 years ago
thanks! and re-post away, this evil 'pro-life' crap needs to be shown for what it really is.
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago
Wow. P-LPB is quite the 'upstanding' guy, isn't he? Who woulda thought, eh?
fuuinekusu 2 years ago
un huh, he's a peach.
jennfarrsuperstar 2 years ago