Tragedy of commons or of intellectual subordination?

[canaan1967]

Minor point: Factory farming of crops and animals is a harm to human health by way of diminished nutrients (grass fed animals are much more nutritious), toxic assault via pesticides, funagcides, herbicides, antibiotics, hormones, GM crops etc...

[sexdrugsRnR]

this is not an intellectual argument... hardin is arguing from a 'worst case scenario' situation which makes his argument incredibly powerful while this argument calls this 'propaganda.' what i hate about this channel is that its filled with strawmen, instead of making the other side as strong as possible and knocking it down... this is like reading the communist manifesto, made for the masses. in fact, this is exactly what propaganda aims to do when you do not use intellectual methodology.

[canaan1967]

@sexdrugsRnR

So corporations can externalize costs and harm they just haven't done it yet, is that what you are saying?

[sexdrugsRnR]

what do you mean?... it is obvious that they try their best to make others pay for their costs, something which is efficiently provided in this system.

[canaan1967]

@sexdrugsRnR

Define "others"

[GregLoutsenko]

hahaha. this is brilliant.

[politics105]

Most of these corporations are run by psychopaths. They don't care about the harm to the people and the earth. They will do anything to profit and they don't care about the harm they cause. In fact, they enjoy the harm they cause. It is paying criminals to do crimes. The government is strongly tied to corporate fraud by corrupt politicians accepting bribes to let those criminal activities to continue.

[podrag]

Do you know what laissez faire capitalism is? I don't think so.

[patient0Studios]

Best to call it Bolshevism or stalinism rather then Marxist-Leninism. Its an insult to both of those men.

[tonyman1989]

It's only an insult to Marx. Lenin lead the way for stalin.

[pork4allah]

The real menace of our Republic is the invisible government which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy legs over our cities, states and nation. At the head is a small group of banking houses... This little coterie...run our government for their own selfish ends. It operates under cover of a self-created screen...seizes...our executive officers...legislative bodies...schools...

courts...newspapers and every agency created for the public protection."

N.Y. Mayor, John Hylan

[dellsprospects2]

so basically that psychic prediction that we're gonna become the new guatemala has shred of truth? hmmm..think i'll pass i'd rather go live in space...

[thorsmitersaw]

As for your attempted derailment of the tragedy of the commons... I do not think you understand this economic concept at all. Your description of it is just plain wrong

[mr1001nights]

Read the wikipedia article on wage slavery, where every "anarcho"-capitalist idea is addressed, including the historical relationship between property and government

[thorsmitersaw]

"Wage slavery" has nothing to do with the matter of the tragedy of commons. And nothing to do with your lack of understanding of the concept. And again, instead of doing your own talking, you give me a canned comment asking me to go to wikipedia.

As for the "anarcho"-capitalist slur: I will just say, that I can easily say, "anarcho"-communist.

[mr1001nights]

Anarchists r against hierarchy. Capitalism and the state are hierarchical. "Anarcho-capitalism" is as oximoronic as "Anarcho-statism". As this video shows, capitalists and statists have a horrible environmental record. The best way to take care of the commons is by eliminating wage slavery & allowing people to direct their own destinies without the authoritarianism of capitalists or state bureaucrats, w/ppl having a say over decisions in proportion to how much they r affected by those decisions

[thorsmitersaw]

You are conflating capitalism with statism. You further are dismissing the relationship of property rights to the stuardship of environment and property.

[mr1001nights]

No, Im just pointing out that capitalism and statism are both hierarchical and authoritarian, therefore not anarchist. I prominently addressed the relationship of the environment with the power derived from property--u just don't like what the record shows. We, anarchists distinguish between exploitative and nonexploitative property. Read the infoshop FAQ to learn about their basic difference. Given that u ignore hierarchy & wage slavery how can anyone take seriously ur claim to be an anarchist?

[sunstorm007]

The Tragedy of the Commons is not an assumption that people can't manage themselves.

The Tragedy of the Commons is a situation where people over use a resource when there are no calculable costs in doing so.

The price mechanism reduces this problem and you can't have a pricing mechanism without property rights.

Have you not read "Guns Germs and Steel?"

[sunstorm007]

Simply put, the Tragedy of the Commons is an Assumption that people can't people can't manage other people in a state of mutual power parity.

In the Tragedy of the Commons, the only solutions that provide order is State Action or a Pricing mechanism and possibly a pricing mechanism that is protected by the state.

[mr1001nights]

"tragedy of the commons" is a capitalist propaganda slogan that assumes that people need to become wage slaves and subordinate themselves to bosses to take care of the environment. The simple refutation is in the fact that for most of human history, hunter gatherers took much better care of the planet than capitalist corporations

[sunstorm007]

Read the book "Guns Germs and Steel."

The Author points to Archaeological or Anthropological studies that show that the first Homo Sapiens who settled Australia who were hunter gatherers Exterminated many species of large animals on the continent.

If they had the good sense to Trap and breed some of the animals and had a system of ownership this would not have happened.

This is a Shining example of Tragedy of the Commons

[mr1001nights]

That is a mostly refuted theory. Some large mammals became extinct because the trees grew large and didn't allow the growth of the smaller plants they fed on. In any case, the degree of environmental destruction caused by the average hunter gatherer as compared to the average capitalist consumer is incomparably smaller. State and capitalist structures have driven millions of species to extinction

[sunstorm007]

I didn't say that all extinction was caused by people.

There only needs to be evidence that it happened with a few cases to prove the rule.

Your forgetting the new species of animals created by domesticating animals.

[mr1001nights]

The fact that a situation in which people's environmental destruction was extremely small as compared to today's capitalist environment, is called "tragedy of the commons" demonstrates, to any rational observer, the extremely ideological nature of the concept--basically vulgar apologetics for capitalism's ravaging destruction of the planet. Comparing the millions of species we've driven to extinction with a few genetic alterations caused by humans on domesticated animals is simply ridiculous

[sunstorm007]

Yes but if the Tragedy of the Commons effect did happen, even in isolated circumstances, it implies that the only reason why they didn't have more of an impact on the economy was that they didn't have the technology

[mr1001nights]

"[t]he great and chief end...of men's uniting into commonwealths, and putting themselves under government, is the preservation of their property"

--John Locke

"Till there be property there can be no government, the very end of which is to secure wealth, and to defend the rich from the poor"

--Adam Smith

"Government...ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority."

--James Madison

"Those who own the country ought to govern it"

--John Jay

[thorsmitersaw]

Way to take John Locke out of context. Locke was trying to defend government as protector, this is a debate between anarchists & minarchists. The state historically is the violator of property rights, not its savior.

2nd quote: Hack economist worshiped by the CATO institute idiots and recently by your kind. He contradicted himself much and failed to do anything much more than make claims with no backing. Kind of like you.

[thorsmitersaw]

3rd quote: are you against minority rights? Do you believe this utilitarian claptrap of 5 men being in the right in slaughtering 4 so that the 5 may survive?

4th quote: I am not sure what context this is being used in. I can already see that it could denote several different positions upon state property and power... but I am sure you mean to make it as ambiguous as possible... as you so love to be and do

[mr1001nights]

Nothing ambiguous about their consensus in pointing out the historical link between property&government. The state has INDEED violated the property rights of SOME individuals to give to the privileged & powerful; but that's precisely the logical conclusion of the quotes: both capitalism & the state violate people's ability to have a say over decisions (property-based or otherwise) in proportion to the degree they're affected by those decisions (which is the best way to ensure minority rights)

[thorsmitersaw]

For every quote from every hack of an economist/political theorist you can draw up (many thus far being supporters of minarchist state) I will bring you 2 illustrating my point.

[thorsmitersaw]

Capitalism (by which I mean a truly unfettered free market) denies choices to no one in how to delegate what is theirs.

Your description of decisions that affect them, in so far as they violate their rights, are perfectly in tune with an individualists ideal of society. Have you not heard of a concept of liberty ending where it DIRECTLY and REALISTICALLY treads upon the liberty of others? Surely you have.

I feel as if we are somewhat talking past one another.

[thorsmitersaw]

You do realize that individualist anarchists have made this point long ago... that corporations and other businesses utilize the state to artificially advantage those businesses and to thereby accumulate a disproportionate wealth distribution.

ezra heywood:

"Government is a northeast wind, drifting property into a few aristocratic heaps, at the expense of altogether too much democratic bare ground. Through cunning legislation... privileged classes are allowed to steal largely according to law."

[mr1001nights]

Read the wikipedia article on wage slavery, where every single one of your points is addressed--including the historical relationship between property and government.

[thorsmitersaw]

Despite this reply addressing nothing and pointing me to wikipedia of all places... The relationship between government and property is simple: the state is the biggest violator of property rights in history.

[themonkeywrench]

Referring you to Wikipedia isn't so bad here as mr1001nights wrote a very large part of that article.

[passerby23]

"Capitalists want the strong state to protect them."

Yes, monopoly capitalists do so they can drive out competition and buy off government to shield them from any harmful or destructive behavior. Pure free market capitalists don't. They want to get rid of the state and protect private property rights. FM capitalists aren't AGAINST the masses, they embrace equal opportunity which is stymied by the state in the first place. This video is more leftist disinfo.

[blackberryjuice1]

then again, wouldn't you say that you used leading questions in those two videos?

[buddhagem]

Are they leading questions? Or are they just so damn plain ordinary and simply, nearly universal questions that it's no surprise everyone answers them the same way? Do you want a boss? Do you think it's surprising that people don't want a boss? And do you really find it surprising that people want to do productive and creative things with their time? What John does is reveal these anarchist sentiments that are always right below the surface.

[blackberryjuice1]

but at the same time, if you asked people "What would you do if you won the lottery?" They would probably mention some ultra-consumerist fantasy. I was watching a documentary of people who won the lottery on TLC last year, and out of the 15-20 people profiled, only one used the money to pursue a different career option. Others simply lived leisurely lives in retirement...

[thorsmitersaw]

Why exactly is that a bad thing? If leisure is sought by man, then so be it. If his pleasure demands work (as my mothers apparently does - "workaholic") than have at it.

[IWW610]

" Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." -Ambrose Bierce, The Devils Dictionary.

[buddhagem]

Great video!