19TET

[padaneis]

Excellent! Clear and synthetic.

[10centguitar]

an equal tempered fifth is not sharper than a 3/2 just fifth. 700cents for equal 702cents for 3/2.

[16fcali]

aghhh why does this end one note early?

[SquallPwnLife]

and why does a note Need to have a function (especially in a non-tonal context)? can it not be its own note? all it is is the fundamental frequency, it already contains almost every perceptible pitch within the octave even within our limited hearing range

[midiguru23]

19TET is wonderful harmonically and melodically. 31TET is even better ... though somewhat more awkward if you try to play it on a 12-note MIDI keyboard. I wrote a feature about 19TET for Keyboard in, uhh, about 1992, give or take a few years. We even did a diagram with "gray keys," just like the ones you're showing. Glad to see the ideas are still floating around! --Jim Aikin

[SquallPwnLife]

about 5 months late here, but an octave is infinitely divisible (in theory), because practical uses of infinity don't really work so much if you haven't noticed. but the tonal plexus keyboard works in 205et or something insane.

[SquallPwnLife]

oh, and at 0:47 it's supposed to say G#/Ab i'm pretty sure (not A#)

[kratanuva725]

@SquallPwnLife The maximum a human can tell the diffrence between two pitches is about 2 cents, this gives us a limit of 600 tones to work with, not infinite. And, furthermore, to 99% of people, a diffrence of 2 cents is undedectable.

Also, there is the issue that, at a certan interval, two notes of diffrent pitch aren't percived as two diffrent notes, with completley diffrent function, but simply two notes tuned slightly diffrently.

[kratanuva725]

For example, in the indian 22 tone systyem, the notes might be named:

C C# C# D D Eb Eb E E F F F# F# G Ab Ab etc...

Now, the diffrence between the two notes of the same names in the indian systyem is of a synoctic comma, or about 21 cents....

Now, it is really hard to tell, but I think the maximum ammount of notes that humans can percieve as having diffrent functions is 24... Which also runs on the limits of pratciality in making instruements.... Now, not to say you can't tune....

[kratanuva725]

whatever instruemnt you want, however you want, but I'm just saying, if you play mary had a little lamb in equal temperment, then in meantone, they are still the same thing, just tuned diffrentley.

I hope I have explained well enough.

[spocksmusic]

@kratanuva725 - 2 pitches separated by only 2 cents (harmonically) just sounds like one pitch with a phase shifter on in.... and most people really can't hear less than 5 cents difference melodically (even with ear training). You hear it as a "skunky" version of a different pitch. But practicallity-out-the-window, with machines you could theoretically make clusters of micro and even nano-clusters, but again.... for what the ear peceives and the brain recognizes... is it worth the effort?

[SquallPwnLife]

@kratanuva725 i'm not just talking about what we can hear, i was just saying anything is infinitely divisible, in theory.

the difference between meantone and equal temperament is quite huge, and the more you listen to a variety of microtonalities the more your ears and brain perceive the differences. sure most people can't hear less than a 5 cent difference, but that's 1/20th of a Semitone! 240 in an octave... have a listen to the tonal plexus, great instrument....

[kratanuva725]

@SquallPwnLife Technicaly, 12 TET is a meantone temperment (11 comma meantone)

And I didn't say there wasn't a diffrence, just that it will still be the same melody no matter what temperment you play it in.

Dosen't the tonal plexus have like 204 notes per octave or something crazy like that? (I know its 200 and something)

[cheesehoven]

This is one of the most attractive microtonal pieces I've heard. Most of them are just about being as dissonant or wacky and possible, but this shows real musicianship.

[FrankBotch]

@cheesehoven it definitely resolves really nicely

[Cephalopoda]

Yeah, guitars work - there's vids on here if you look about.

For clarinets, check out the vid somewhere of the guy with the Bohlen Pierce one. Awesome (if a bit weird).

[alreadytaken334]

So all the scales use the same exact note names as 12-TET? It's amazing that it works out that way.

I've got the sudden urge to build a bunch of 19-TET instruments. The easiest obviously would be guitar. I just have to buy a fretless guitar neck along with the rest of the supplies I would need, and 38 frets. Then using the formula (scale-length) - ((scale-length) / ((2^(1/12))^f)) , where f = fret number, I can determine where to place each fret. I want to build a piano or a clarinet also.

[oryxfreeride]

It would probably be easier to just use a normal piano and tune the strings according to 19-tet. Or if you want to fool around with it, i'm sure you can buy a digital keyboard, plug it into your computer and use a program to adjust the tunings for you.

[jstarret]

@alreadytaken334

I assume you mean (scale-length) - ((scale-length) / ((2^(1/19))^f))

[alreadytaken334]

Yeah :)

My bad.

[alreadytaken334]

I've been messing around with Audacity creating pitches. Using the formula 440((2^(1/19))^(n-1)), where 440 is the reference pitch (concert A, so this can be 220 or 880, etc. if you wish), and where n is the scale degree of the chromatic 19-TET scale, I've been able to create pitches in 19 equal temperament.

[Cephalopoda]

Also, on that same slide, Youtube b0rks the equals signs and makes them minus signs for some compression reason, which is annoying.

[alienkill254]

i think u mean Ab and not A#?

C+ 2maj3rds = Ab

C-1maj3=Ab

Nice anyway

[Cephalopoda]

Yeah, there's the odd typo - knocked the slides up while delayed on a train!

Technically, C + 2 maj thirds is G sharp, which we're assuming at that point equals A flat.

[ericoschmitt]

@Cephalopoda in the last slide it says "the sample you are listening to demonstrate 12-tone equaltemperament"

shouldnt it be 19-tone instead?

[Cephalopoda]

Hehe. It's a bit old school. I wrote a tone-generator years ago for my Acorn A3010. I wrote a short BBC Basic program to operate that and churn out the relevant noises, which I then recorded analogue via a cable into my PC.

Sometimes old technology gets things up and running quicker than the new!

[deldotbee]

Fascinating! Would you mind briefly explaining how you made the tune? In particular which software?

Thanks

[musicool]

los invito a la nueva web de microtonalismo MICROTONALISMO pounto COM

Tambien hay musica y videos de microtonalismo.

Saludos

[Rakemaan]

Thank you, I enjoyed.

[Mobetaco]

¿Sabes? creo ke me apresuré en hacer ese comentario con respecto a la escala musical propuesta. pues viéndolo desde el punto de vista práctico, realmente sí conviene usar la escala musical de 19 tonos equalizados en la octava. Miselaineeous ya la ha comprobado. Exelente Video explicativo a las masas para ke entiendan de una vez por todas ke 12 tonos NO lo es todo y de ke se puede usar como recurso innovativo for our lives.

P.S: Yo estoy usando in my Bass la escala de 23-tET. (:

[withindarkness]

This video is excellent.

I've only just started looking into 19 TET... the composition playing throughout was a nice demonstration, and had the neat effect (for me, still being new to this music) of sounding badly out of tune at first, but by the end my ears had "got it", and it sounded very pleasing, if still unusual.

[darkevilbitch666]

In the end it says: "The sample you are listening to demonstrates 12-tone equal temperament." So there should be nothing unusual to that.

[darkevilbitch666]

Ah, okay. It's an error. Should have seen that. I guess, I just wanted to be a smartass.

[georgieporgie321]

19tet is a beautiful temperament, it's close enough not to be too different sounding, some of the intervals are purer sounding, and the theory behind it could go much deeper than 12 tone ever will because of the way that circles can be made of any interval in 19tet. Can't wait to get a 19tet guitar. Beautiful composition btw :)

[tom123tom456tim]

Re my previous post, I just checked with my guitar here and yes there are quite a number of tones I can distinguish between frets. In fact I recall reading recently someone claiming how many tones the human ear can distinguish between notes, and it was quite a big number as I recall, surprisingly big. The 24 tone system may be a good compromise for me for now, I love the beautiful sounding chords you can come up with using those in between notes. Then again maybe it's time to go fretless.

[tom123tom456tim]

Nice video. I assume that's a typo when you say the sample you are listening to demonstrates 12 tone equal temperment, should say 19 I assume. I'm experimenting with 24 tones, putting a fret between the frets. I understand ancient Persian music uses 24 tones. This would allow you to play all the standard "western" music and also move in between notes as you desire. The guy that says he hears 5 microtones between frets, awesome.

[scaleshort]

19 is not enough. I know nfrom my experience (fretless bass since 1984 and fretless guitar last 2 years), that here are a lot more than 19 tones. Beetwen two frets are adlist 5 microtones. Tell me - am I wrong?

[uethanian]

microtones (whether equal tempered or just) are not a unit of measurement. there can theoretically be any number of tones between two frets (not a unit of measurement either).

it's not a question of notes-per-octave; each equal temperament has different harmonic qualities. so 19 is fine if you like the sound of 19.

[o15523]

Uethanian, the theory of infinite divisibility doesn't apply to music.

[Chainsaw20x7]

why not?

[o15523]

Because an octave is not infinitely divisible. If it were, you could take a fretless bass and slide up indefinitely between C and C# without ever reaching C#.

[Chainsaw20x7]

That makes no sense, if its infinately divisable that means you can slide up an infiniate number of times between C and C#, not infinately far. And you can slide an infinite number of times (not humanly, but human capability has nothing to do with it) between the two notes, as long as each slide is infinitely small.

[o15523]

Yeah Zeno thought the same thing back in the 5th century BC.

[Cephalopoda]

You can have as many microtones as you like, but it'd make for an awkward piano.

[JLMoriart]

@Cephalopoda Not if you use an isomorphic keyboard. Same fingering in 19-edo as in 12-edo, and any other tuning as long as it's in the same tuning continua. (Like meantone, magic, hanson, etc.)

[Cephalopoda]

Well spotted, Alnitaka! That's me just not renaming the labels on that slide.

This piece doesn't have any unusual chords in it at all. It's quite conservative chords, with a bit of modulation, to demonstrate the tuning system really.

[Mobetaco]

¿Ké dices?¿Ke 31 es muy largo para manejar?Pues desde mi punto de vista 31 tiene mejores recursos musicales ke 19 (convendría en este caso un 38-tET); 19 tiene una tercera mayor desafinada en aproximadamente 7 Cents Plana y su Kinto mide unos 694,74 Cents, ke también tiene aproximadamente "7,algo" Cents Plana. El Kinto de 31 es notablemente un poco mejor kel de 19. 31 tiene la interesante propiedad de ser el resultado aproximado de Pi^3.

[alnitaka]

Excellent video on 19-tone together with the strange-sounding musical accompaniment. I was wondering if you used any superminor chords, as in C, E double flat (or left flat), G. At 2:24 you showed us C-sharp minor and D-Flat Minor. A D scale, like any scale, needs to have its letter names in order, as in DEFGABC. However your D-Flat minor scale used an A instead of a B; an A#. This note has to be a B, so it should have been Bbb instead.

[miselaineeous]

MOST of my music is 19tet. It's a fabulous tuning. :)

[nageljeuk]

I love having an extremely relative hearing, I don't even hear the difference, I've composed some pieces in continuous pitch by the way, my ex loved them.

[Cephalopoda]

Sorry, typo: 2^(7/12) is flat, not sharp, compared with 3/2.