Bach - Contrapunctus 14 - reconstruction - part 2

[slvsephiroth]

il contrapunctus XIV termina la dove Bach ha finito di scriverlo.

[elopez4024]

This is the best Youtube post Ive ever seen.... seriously

[untl01]

the three matrices shown in the left are permutation matrices, when combined together they fill all the components. Bach was crazily genius!

[musoderelict]

I love the way that the 4th subject (the Art of Fugue theme) can combine with the other three either as itself or its inversion - Mr Goncz even puts them together! Of course no-one can ever replace Bach, however this person has done an excellent job of completing his work.

I think Bach, the great teacher as well as composer, would have been pleased.

[hanshenrik2]

How is SI Swimsuit 2007 Raica possibly related to this magnficence?

[arruffato8888]

rather worked up, aren't you? Perhaps you'd like to explain the Brahms Haydn variations to me, too? On second thought, don't bother.

[arruffato8888]

@wcbroccoli: '@arruffato8888 Bach completed early version of most of the fugues in AofF at least a decade before his death. These earlier versions survive in Bach's hand in 2-staff keyboard notation (as these are all keyboard works).

If you understood invertible counterpoint, permutation fugues...'

What an enormously condescending comment. Who do you think you are? I understand all of these perfectly well, and there is nothing in my comment that suggests otherwise!

[jschubart1]

@arruffato8888 Who am I? I'm the person who dared to point out that the emperor isn't wearing any clothes.

Your comment "I think that Zoltán Göncz has understood the logic of the fugue" suggests that you really don't understand that Göncz didn't discover anything about this fugue that wasn't already known. His observations are merely general observations about the concepts of permutation fugue and invertible counterpoint.

[fabientouchard]

beau tour de force contrapuntique! quel travail...

[thegoddescomposer]

Bach's music has an ethical force; it's like hearing a command to change your life.

[pila406]

Eargasmic! Genius!

[arruffato8888]

(Sorry about the triple posting)

[arruffato8888]

This is impressive. I think that Zoltán Göncz has understood the logic of the fugue and written as good a completion as possible (which doesn't mean that others aren't possible). That's precisely the point: it's even possible that the fugue wasn't left incomplete because Bach's death, but rather as a challenge to future players and composers, one that Göncz has met brilliantly. I think that someone were to discover Bach's own completion and present it as her own, some would scream 'inauthentic'!

[arruffato8888]

This is fantastic; I think that Zoltán Göncz has understood the logic of the fugue and written as good a completion as possible (which doesn't mean that others aren't possible). That's precisely the point: it's even possible that the fugue wasn't left incomplete because Bach's death, but rather as a challenge to future players and composers, one that Göncz has met brilliantly. I think that someone were to discover Bach's own completion and present it as her own, some would scream 'inauthentic'!

[wcbroccoli]

@arruffato8888 Bach completed early version of most of the fugues in AofF at least a decade before his death. These earlier versions survive in Bach's hand in 2-staff keyboard notation (as these are all keyboard works).

If you understood invertible counterpoint, permutation fugues and how one goes about writing an N-subject fugue, you would realize that Göncz hasn't discovered anything. He's merely graphically illustrated a well-understood concept.

[wcbroccoli]

@arruffato8888 Göncz's matrices graphically illustrate SOME of the POSSIBLE (but by no means mandatory) orderings of entrances that MIGHT be used in subsequent expositions, but they don't tell him what other counterpoints to include, what chord progressions or modulations to use, or. most significantly, how to write the episodes BETWEEN expositions.

[snakeeyes021]

Personally, I think this is fantastic. Not 100% perfect or authentic perhaps, but I would say it is a completion truly fitting of the master's music.

The one thing I wonder is should the fourth contrapuntal theme have it's own section without any of the other voices? The first three boxes that combine to create the matrix all introduce a single theme in a certain order, but without any of the other themes. THEN after he's introduced the theme, he layers other themes around it. Thoughts?

[Barbapippo]

Completing this masterpiece in an adequate way is really impossible... I prefer the original unfinished version, :)

[qweuio]

@Barbapippo Sorry, but can you elaborate on why you think this is below "adequate" level? I don't think this is perfect either, but it's still more than average at least, and I respect the effort put into it. Plus, the coda part with all the four themes at 5:58 is so ethereal.

[qweuio]

I loved this at first, but after a more couple of listening, I feel some chords sound too modern/advanced for Bach. Did he really use the g-dur chord (d-g-h) SO MUCH in d-moll? I know he used some, but this is a bit too obvious.

Although this is the best completion of XIV, without doubt

[LJBSasha]

One reason why some people may feel that this completion isn't quite up to Bach's compositional standards relative to his being a man of soul has to do with the playing in this recording. Playing it all on one registration is part of the trouble; another part is that much of the playing in itself lacks feeling - notably the ending!! This player isn't letting the music breathe the way it needs to!!!

[mezzoforte84]

@LJBSasha Playing one registration sounded right to me!! I think it could distract from the development of the piece to make registration changes. And Bach didn't say that this was an organ piece anyway.

Keeping the pulse constant is essential in Bach's organ music; breathing (and bringing out voices) occurs in articulation and timing, but it must be subtle! I think he did that. I really loved the ending personally... I love those long stretches of rich counterpoint and dissonance.

[LJBSasha]

@mezzoforte84: make things too subtle, then all too many listeners won't be readily able to notice - it then starts to all sound the same!! That, in my honest opinion, is a major reason why people are turning away from the organ as an instrument; especially if coupled with a general ossification in classical music overall where EVERYTHING must be done as it was 2, 3, 4, etc. centuries ago! [You can tell that I've no love for ANY "political correctness" of any sort, period!!]

[LJBSasha]

That's why you'll see me calling for registrational changes, swell-boxing, etc. at least not to be condemned if done in good taste and in such a way as to add instead of subtract from the basic music. Those who want "purity" (à la "pure Islâm"!!!!) are best to go to museums with appropriate "museum-piece" instruments (period-instruments) - and even with period dress, with the works performed in the period-context (e.g., as part of period-style church services) - ALL of which becomes ABSURD!!!

[LJBSasha]

@mezzoforte84: Finally, that it may not have been explicitly designated as an organ-piece (something I'm glad to leave to the academic bigwigs - yours truly wants ZERO to do with it!!) 'per se' doesn't mean much. If you're going to play it on the organ, you want then to make as strong a case for it being appropriate on the organ as on any other instrument or combination thereof.

[mezzoforte84]

@LJBSasha I agree with what you've said.

[sarahjerusalem]

Bravo bravo et encore bravo!!!

[qweuio]

I'm seriously shivering from the awsomeness.

[ChiZ712]

8000 views........is this not perhaps the greatest achievement in all of history by any one human? yet pop musicians such as katy perry enjoy hundreds of millions of views......humans are naturally stupid.

[PancakesoftheLove]

@ChiZ712

In all honesty I'd say it was the generations of businessmen that have fed the masses drivel in order to dumb them down in to nothing more than mindless zombified consumers rather than an inherent stupidity.

Human beings aren't inherently lacking in intelligence. It's all a matter of what manner in which we are raised. Pop(ular) music is an attempt at intelligence while still confined to the chains of consumerism in which controversy and rehash are the only way to garner attention.

[elopez4024]

@ChiZ712 Single greatest achievement by one human mind?Hmmm I would put Bach, Einstiens, Newtons, Da Vince and Shakespeares lifetime works at a tie... altough I naturally gravitate to Bach

[CatusSilvestris]

Na minha opinião é a mais profunda obra de música de todos os tempos. Bravo!

[xenolalia]

"Like" is a totally insufficient adjective to describe the culmination of a musical era.

[dv308]

astonishing

[PancakesoftheLove]

THIS.

I HEARD THE CONTINUATION IN MY HEAD FOR SO LONG.

It's wonderful to finally listen to a completion of this masterpiece.

[PancakesoftheLove]

@PancakesoftheLove Especially one that realizes the idea that Bach was most likely striving for.

The permutation matrix of this fugue was a marvelous discovery, and the recapitulation of the main subject of the Art of Fugue was proven to be almost certain. And when you listen to a completion that utilizes it, it occurs, at least to me, that it takes on a whole new level that turns the entire Art of Fugue into something almost akin to a cycle, an entire concept, a spiritual journey if you will.

[redeemer665]

@PancakesoftheLove word.

[chadford88]

Does anyone know where I can find the sheet music or do I have to transcribe it?

please!

[PancakesoftheLove]

@chadford88 The sheet music you can likely find on imslp.org.

If you want something more suited to piano, you'll likely have to translate the alto/tenor lines from their respective clefs into treble/bass. However, if you want the completion's sheet music, you're out of luck.

Or you can just screencap each still from this video and voila, sheet music.

[SirWWW]

Amazing!

[Demusics]

No suena a Bach, el contrapunto es poco denso, no tiene su originalidad, no tiene alma. La musica no son son solo matemáticas. Para hacer una fuga, se necesita algo mas que cuatro matrices. Por experiencia. Aún así, buen intento.

[LJBSasha]

@Demusics: I must STRONGLY disagree with you!!! [I don't speak Spanish, so I hope that my knowledge of French and Italian has not misled me into seriously wronging you when understanding your claim to be "It doesn't sound like Bach, the counterpoint is a little dense, it has no originality, has no soul."] None of those claims are true. While not being a Baroque scholar by any stretch of the imagination, this completion very much sounds like Bach indeed!!!! Certainly an excellent completion

[Demusics]

@LJBSasha Bach tenia mas pasión y romanticismo de lo que parece. Conozco toda la obra de Bach, y siempre hay mas pasion que matematicas. Entiendo tu argumento, lo respeto, pero no comparto la idea. La musica es algo mas que matematicas. Bach tape-worm more passion and romanticism of what seems. I know the whole Bach's work, and always there is more passion that mathematical. I understand your argument, respect it, but I do not share the idea. The music is some kind of mas that mathematical.

[LJBSasha]

@Demusics: I'm relieved that you understood my English and attempts to reach you in spite of not knowing Spanish!! Thank you very much!!!

That said, I completely agree with you in that Bach's music has more passion and Romanticism than sometimes appears. However, I'll disagree with you when it comes to your thinking that Göncz's completion lacks these things.

One good thing about it: since the thought-train has been postulated and exposed, perhaps now somebody (either Göncz or somebody

[Demusics]

@LJBSasha I respect all the religions, though I do not belong to any, am atheistic. I believe that the energy it is quite. I respect all the ideas that they do a better humanity. And for it I think that the art, especially the music, is important because it comes directly to our thought and feelings. A greeting, and happy new year.

[LJBSasha]

@Demusics: Happy New Year to you too & heartiest greetings!!! Although a bit of a fundamentalist Christian (non-denominational), I fully respect people of other faiths or none. Most certainly the arts, especially music, do speak to & for the soul - the big trouble with Islâm as a faith is that it despises ALL art, music, science & technology!!! If you disbelieve me, please check the Qu'rân and Hadiths (not for nothing why militant Islâm is threatening the whole West!!) - you'll be shocked!!!

[LJBSasha]

else) can now attempt a completion that WILL incorporate what has been done plus adding whatever soul you feel is lacking in this current reconstruction.

As to Islâm: yes, I'm well aware that there are good people (by our Western standards) in there (just as with any religion); however, it's crucially important that you don't think that the people truly represent their religion, alas!! I can particularly vouch for how generations of my ancestors suffered under Muslim rule for 5 Centuries!!

[LJBSasha]

Furthermore, my grandparents fought Communism in Russia (in the White Army) and had to flee it thus not once but TWICE!!!! Furthermore, my father was an air-force pilot with the Allies fighting the Nazis, and then he (and his wife my late mother) had to also flee Communism likewise!!!

[Demusics]

@LJBSasha Estoy en contra del facismo y del nacismo. Tengo muchos amigos islamistas, y en mi pais, (Spain, Basque Country) aunque no lo creas, se respeta mas que en el resto de Europa y en America. I am in opposition to the facismo and the nacismo. I have many islamist friends, and in my country, (Spain, Basque Country) though you do not create it, there is respected mas that in the rest of Europa and in America.

[LJBSasha]

particularly when compared to the efforts of Lionel Rogg or to some extent even Helmut Walcha (better than Rogg for sure but still not quite at least as ambitious or comprehensive an exploration as what here's done by Zoltán Göncz!).

My sole quibble is playing all 16 minutes or so of this piece upon ONE registration, and a plenum at that!!! It's this kind of ultra-simplistic idea of everything being "organo pleno" "historically-informed performance practise" that gets me angry as feeling the

[LJBSasha]

the same as "political correctness" à la Communism, Nazism, Islâm or Fascism and all the other totalitarianisms that yours truly has learned to hate with every last bit of his being!!!! That in my eyes robs a star from this performance.

Otherwise, while I've yet a while to go in sampling other completions by Tovey et al, this effort surely is extremely promising so far: it's so idiomatic that one could almost think that Göncz was in communion with the soul of JS Bach himself!! 4/5

[LJBSasha]

In fact, such a performance (all upon one "organo pleno" registration) would usually not even gain 2 or 3, let alone 4 or all 5 stars!! However, an exception is made on account of the completion composed by Göncz - it does such a good job of completing the torso Johann Sebastian Bach was forced to leave behind unfinished due to his death. It's this work that for me at least would allow me to even play the piece in recital unreservedly!!! [And THEN add the Choralvorspiel JSB finally dictated.]

[CulturaVenezia]

The best I ever heard.

[thegoddescomposer]

BACH= 14=41=14

B=2A=1C=3H=8=14

2:04 is the really end of his work of bach there is also the 2th motif of bach last repeating of 2th motif count it. it has 41 notes

[AdolfGalland84]

Great.

[TFreckle]

Magnificent! Brilliant! Lots of long superlatives!!

[chomskyFTW]

Wow, I risk being redundant in complimenting you, however, it's warranted.

[lucacallegaro]

We may not be certain of the fidelity of reconstruction, but it represents for sure an unbelievable penetration of the mind of a genius. And the video is great.

[Askelairlines747]

what about creating a new musical style, called- Sudoku counterpoint =)

This was excellent!

[PrecicyJax]

After 2:04, let's only hope this is how Bach intended to end C. XIV. Course, we'll never really know. Perhaps, as others have suggested, Bach intended to leave it unfinished simply because there are so many additional permutations as well as other variations that it would taken Bach another 65 years to complete it.

[LJBSasha]

@PrecicyJax: your premise of JSB leaving this quadruple fugue deliberately unfinished (perhaps as an exercise for others to profit by in their studies of counterpoint), while not impossible, is not something I'd expect most composers to do. Interesting theory, but this completion sure feels at least as good as what Süßmayr did for Mozart's "Requiem" - nay, considerably better in my honest opinion!!

[Yes, the permutations and other variations could take up whole books & more beyond doubt!]

[b0ttomzone]

Zoltán Göncz has turned the Fuga a 3 Sogetti into the true Contrapunctus XIV, the crowning jewel of the Art of Fugue, and Bach would certainly approve.

[OrbiliusMagister]

Truly ingenuous completion: many of Bach's ideas presented through contrapuncti and canones are exploited in the last developing section. I appreciated the "mirror" stretti and the suspence created by the sudden stops with diminished chords (reminding Contrapunctus 1). Use of more than four voices is already seen in the final bars of contrapunctus 6.

[thegoddescomposer]

2:04 was the really end were bach died , but he never finish this work who wrote this to the end ?

[rubinstein1234]

not Bad

[hecthovenpianist]

6:00 6 voice! :O

[pureaKero]

Beautiful completion, just not sure it called for five voices at the end, but still amazingly done, the fourth subject is really called for, it seems the piece would never feel 'done' without it!

[parquar]

@pureaKero if it works with all 4 subjects and the inversion of the 4th (in addition to the pedal tone) then why the hell not do it? The guy studied quite a while for this reconstruction and it was surely no half-ass finish like most of the others.

[pureaKero]

@parquar like I said before, this is an amazing completion, but personally, I think that the simplest answer is the best option. Bach could do anything with his music and sometimes his genius shines through when he is not using the most complex solution. I often like to quote Gould's "So you want to write a fugue", where he writes "Never be clever for the sake of being clever for the sake of showing off". Still this is a superb completion and I tip my hat off to the composer!

[parquar]

@pureaKero because of how much it increases the density of the counterpoint, taking advantage of another possibility within the subjects is ideal when showing a wide variety of possibilities is a purpose of the entire A of F. If he did those fancy things in serialist music that sounded like garbage, it would be being clever for the sake of being clever. He however was humble and it adds to the music legitimately. This is certainly not the piece for limiting excess

[LJBSasha]

@pureaKero: Perhaps then you might like to look at Helmut Walcha's completion - it's considerably simpler. Walcha's part is just a little over 2'35" in length (out of 10'35" playing time).

Personally, I'll take this one any day - it feels so right!!!!

[alf9q]

3:25 5 voci

[jmixplizik]

bravo, bravo, bravo

[parquar]

This is untouchable. Now somebody just has to add visual subjects and scent subjects to go along at the same time with it being a 3 dimensional matrix. lol

[rodstartube]

6:00 orgasm

[paradoxicus]

Esto es defenestrar la ultima voluntad de Bach.

[elopez4024]

Y si su voluntad era dejar algo sin terminar con pistas en la obra para ver si en algun momento alguien decifra como el deseada terminarlo? O si murio sin terminarlo, por q le importaria q amantes de su musica traten de entenderlo mejor haciendo un estudio como este?

[paradoxicus]

¿Porque se me censura?.

[eleeniitsa]

Πολύ όμορφη διάλεξη !!!

Σ' ευχαριστώ...

[elopez4024]

this is seriously probably the best youtube post ive ever seen

[pila406]

@elopez4024 You mean for SURE!

[elopez4024]

this is what Bach meant... it only took us 300 years to figure out... truly a mind for the ages

[parquar]

but then again it took almost 200 just to figure out that the original art of fugue theme fit in as a 4th subject. The matrix is absolutely genius though

[wcbroccoli]

@parquar No. Gustav Nottenbohm demonstrated this in 1881. Does it make sense that a work consisting of fugues and canons based on the same subject would include one fugue that does follow that pattern?

Bach's Obituary already mentioned "a draft for a fugue that was to contain four themes in four voices".

The "matrix" would seem like "absolute genius" to someone who doesn't know what is a permutation fugue or invertible counterpoint (both of which were invented long before Bach).

[wcbroccoli]

@parquar N invertible counterpoints can be comibned in N! different ways.The matrix doesn't do anything more than graphically illustrate the actual or possible orderings of invertible counterpoints to people like you who don't understand the notion of a permutation fugue or invertible counterpoint, both of which were invented long, long, long before Bach.

[SecondAgeOfReason]

@wcbroccoli It is obviously a permutation fugue but the graphic displays the important part, which is the order of the subject entrances throughout the different voices which remain the same for all of the subjects. Without looking through the score it wouldn't be easy to pick up on the orders in which all of the subjects enter the different voices in their respective fugues. It's also an important point that the skeletons of the earlier fugues make up the last one.

[wcbroccoli]

@SecondAgeOfReason This is not a permutation fugue. A permutation fugue has no connecting episodes or statements of the themes in related keys. But this fugue has both. E.g., at m.86 an episode modulates from G minor to Bb, leading to statement of the 1st subject on Bb, answered by inversion on F.

[wcbroccoli]

@SecondAgeOfReason You say "the order of the subject entrances throughout the different voices ... remain the same for all of the subjects", but this is clearly not true. Subject 1 appears in the order BTAS; subject 2 appears ASBT; subject 3 appears TASB. From this Göncz THEORIZED that the 4th subject should appear in the order SBTA. Even if he's right about the order, that doesn't determine the rest of the fugue. Counterpoints, modulations, episodes, etc. are still left to the composer.

[wcbroccoli]

@SecondAgeOfReason The only thing certain is that if you want to write a 4-subject fugue, you must first construct 4 subjects that combine in invertible counterpoint. The rest is left to your artistic discretion.

Bach's Obituary actually mentions of "a draft for a fugue that was to contain four themes in four voices". It's likely he completed it but the concluding pages were misplaced by his heirs, judging from their evident confusion about which was which in their publications of AoF.

[SecondAgeOfReason]

@wcbroccoli It being left up to artistic discretion is exactly why it was important to find that the orders of the subjects entering in their respective expositions could be overlaid to form the permutation matrix, which gives specific meaning to the previous expositions in relation to the 4 subject permutation section. The episodes and aftermath were in the good discretion of zolan. It is stylistically seamless and carried with good logic unlike other reconstructions. His c minor one's good too

[wcbroccoli]

@SecondAgeOfReason You merely assume there's only one possible ordering, that Zoltan has discovered it, and that the ordering is critical. There are 24 possible ways to order the entrinace of a single subject in 4 parts. There is no one "correct" way, and the order of the entries is really not that imporatant, except for the sake of variety. What is more important is what you do after the entries. After Bach's build up of dramatic tension, Zoltan's continuation is an rambling anti-climax.

[SecondAgeOfReason]

There is only one order that repeats the same order of entrances as the previous expositions for each respective subject and voice though. That was the point of the permutation matrix - to overlay the expositions. Do you think Bach would have made the orders of the 1st 3 expositions so they could be put together and form those specific 4 orderings, and then start the permutation fugue with a different order? You're right that the rest is arbitrary but the order it would start is hinted

[wcbroccoli]

@SecondAgeOfReason Again. this is not a permutation fugue. A permutation fugue has no connecting episodes or statements of the themes in related keys. This fugue has both.

You seem to think there are only 4 possible orderings Bach could have chosen from. In fact, in there are 24. (A 5-voice fugue has 120 possibilities.). Different orderings are used for the sake of variety, and the choice of a particular ordering is a matter of artistic discretion.

[wcbroccoli]

@SecondAgeOfReason There much more to writing a fugue than choosing the order of entrances in an exposition.

[SecondAgeOfReason]

@wcbroccoli "You're right that the rest is arbitrary but the order it would start is hinted" I already said that but I was just trying the whole time to get across the point that the permutation matrix isn't just any series of orders that works but the one created by overlaying the previous expositions. It brings out a cool structural similarity to the previous fugues. It's hard to reverse engineer what Bach had planned in its entirely though.

[wcbroccoli]

@SecondAgeOfReason The 3 subjects (S1, S2 and S3) of the 3-part Contrapunctus VIII enter in these orders: S1: TBS. S2:TSB S3: TBS. Now construct the 3 corresponding permutation matrices. According to Zoltan's theory, overlaying the 1st two matrices should leave exacty 3 empty cells. However, there are 4 empty cells! Furthermore, S1 and S3 enter in exactly the same order: TBS.

Zoltan's theory fails.

[jschubart1]

@wcbroccoli Good counterexample. The notion that Bach drew graphs to decide the order of entries for the next exposition seems absurd.

[parquar]

@jschubart1 Because he would have chosen arbitrary orders even though the previous entries fit together in their original respective voices and orders? The musical offering is full of this type of thing anyway.

[parquar]

@wcbroccoli Why would you construct a matrix of contrapunctus vIII? The matrix is of the first part of contrapunctus xiv. It can also be obviously observed that contrapunctus VIII did not have the same plan as XIV.

[josquin2232]

見事な補完

[StevenShields29]

1:10

[hethyapor]

Göncz Zoltán barátjaként és munkatársaként figyelhettem, milyen szeretettel, alázattal és elhivatottsággal rekonstruálta a Bach-életmű ezen végső remekét, a video különösen élvezetessé teszi az eredmény megítélését.

Göncz Zoltán erről szóló könyve birtokában próbálom megérteni a megfejtés lényegét-aztán jön a relativitás-elmélet...