Paul Ewald: Can we domesticate germs?

[AFG34]

if you found this TED talk interesting read "survival of the sickest" especially the chapter "of microbes and men"

[Trinitysx]

how come germs havent evolved into bugs or something ?

the microscope was invented a long time ago and yet they haven't changed much.

[DocUnsane]

@Trinitysx

'germs' havnt evolved into 'bugs' because then what would occupy their builogical niche? Things dont necessarily constantly evolve into more complex organisms, they evolve to be more effective at reproduction and survival.

plus the time scale from 'germs' to 'bugs' is probably much longer than from when the microscope was invented.

[Trinitysx]

@DocUnsane A germs life span is around is around from 30 seconds to to 30mins

For them 100 years is like what 1billion years

that's enough time to evolve

and they haven't evolved or changed at all

Adapt yes but physical changes no...

[DocUnsane]

@Trinitysx

re-read my initial comment (edit the typo from builogical to biological)

organisms evolve to occupy a 'place' in the food-chain/environment, Not to become more complex organisms.

PS: an adaptation is a physical change.

you need to look up what evolution actually is....

[sondano]

@Trinitysx putting aside the fact that not all organisms evolve into more complex ones and that plenty of microbials species have in fact evolved into more resilent organisms (they can do it just within a few decades in some cases) Leeuwenhoek worked in the 17th century. You call a few centuries "a long time" in evolution?

[Trinitysx]

@sondano the life span of these germs are like 5 hrs.. so yes 3 centuries is a long time 

[sondano]

@Trinitysx no it's not. There is no example of any microbial species ever evolving into a multicellular creature within 3 centuries. That takes hundreds of thousands if not millions of years. Besides the lifespan of pathogenic microbes varies greately depending on the circumstances. Most do not live for more than a few months others can live for decades in the right conditions.

[stevanspringer]

For those interested in the OPV vaccine theory of HIV please see the following paper which shows that HIV originated in humans too early to be the result of contaminated polio vaccines:

Worobey M, et al (2004). Origin of AIDS: Contaminated polio vaccine theory refuted Nature 428: 820.

[UnrealHel]

There was a guy i my former class that had the name Ewald. lol

[tekemperor]

Wow, I thought clean water was just a basic need. Now I'm pretty sure it should be the first target to help a culture with a variety of problems.

[dubsconjr]

AIDS doesn't actually kill its host . . . it weakens the host immune system such that a small infection typically fended off by healthy immune systems(common cold, etc.) can become lethal.

[happyinnanaimo]

I'm curious as to why the AIDS virus would eventually kill it's host. Wouldn't it be to it's advantage to keep the host alive to keep on infecting more people?

[sanguinus]

Fascinating that tackling the diseases will cause them to evolve towards being less harmful - but obvious, if you stop to think about it!

[yamen0]

umm , i couldn't take my eyes off the pimple the whole time , just couldn't focus on what he was talking about.. he can use science to get rid of it .. No Kidding :P .

[Exodust145]

What pimple? Are you talking about the bump on the cheek? That's the mic dude...

[yamen0]

Rofl , my bad .. but it sure looks like an ugly pimple , if you are 100% sure it's the mic then i really need to get my eyes checked .. thanks for the explaination .

btw , i didn't really spent the 20 mins looking at his "pimple" , was just exaggerating .

[swalker711]

He is worthless. 100 years ago French/Caanadian Felix d'Herelle used viruses that killed bacterial. It is called Phage and a very poor country uses it (Georgia once controlled by Stalin). Hard to find the video cdiff marsa cure

Dr zemphra Alavidze and D Amiran Mei Pariani of the Institute of Bacteriophage Tbilisi.

Try to find this info. It is eye opening as to what passes as medical in America. It is as if meds here are designed to harm.

[Mjhavok]

Smart way of fighting disease. Use evolution to your advantage.

[naganokumas]

I was able to follow him, just. He speaks very quickly and technically. His observations and message should be appreciated. I'd love to see this speech presented in a clarifying documentary.

[seyoumeye]

Virus and a particular "human race" both express same and common behavior: by all means always in search for a healthy body and territory...to infest and exploit the host. Sadly both are unaware that this can lead to self-destruction...no more healthy body or no more fertile territory = (equals) to no virus or no "human". I think both need proper environmental "education"...

[trakkaton]

Well, a lot of humans have that education, just not the western capitalistic hordes of affluent chauvinists, guided by banksters and war criminals.

[DanHasAMillion]

more clean water in 3rd world countries!

[trakkaton]

The fascists of the west have declared a war on the south, and they fought it for hundereds of years, with colonialism, neocolonialism, debt ambush, weapon exports, proxy wars, backing of fascist dictators, wars of aggression, economic hitmen, blackmail, and so there is no motive for the banksters elite to turn around and care at all.

[FaithIsImaginary]

"The fascists of the west have declared a war on the south..."

This is completely silly. Most wars in africa at this point are caused and fought by the natives themselves. If the west contributes to african poverty in any way today it would have to be by using industry protection mechanisms that block trade.

A lot could be said for shooting all Christian and Islamic missionaries in the area though. Africa needs education, not false dogma(or religious hatred, which is one major cause of war

[trakkaton]

I repeat:

colonialism, neocolonialism, debt ambush, weapon exports, proxy wars, backing of fascist dictators, wars of aggression, economic hitmen, blackmail

[Entschunder]

Africa was shit before colonies, and turned shit after colonies.

[trakkaton]

Yeah, you sound just like the ethnologist and historian to give some academic inside. Have fun in your crazy bubble, uneducated fuck!

[Entschunder]

no ethologist or historian can denie what i wrote. they can only think of excuses for it.

the truth is so obvious.

[trakkaton]

The "truth"? You didn't even make A CLAIM!

To "answer" to the fact that people in a specific area were subjected to "colonialism, neocolonialism, debt ambush, weapon exports, proxy wars, backing of fascist dictators, wars of aggression, economic hitmen, blackmail" with "it was shit" is just complete brainless.

[Animalll2003lll]

Hey dude you're freaking xtrem. Be more respectful. Europe has also been shit for the most part of history. Most regions in the world have been shit for the most parts of history. The tribes in Scoltand not so long ago, that's just shit too.

Organized societies is I think a matter of values and 'culture hygiene' in a way. And it takes time. It's hard to get people to be honest hard working and develop infrastructure, companies-- and the West doesn't/didn't help Africa at all in my view.

[Entschunder]

Now im really not into being offensive all of the time. But i really believe that being honest and hard working and being intelligent especially has a genetic component. Who helped the west or east asia ? who helps vietnam build itself up again ? its the vietnamese on their own.. Who fucks up former 1st world country south africa on their own ?

And this just correlates with individual IQs.

Its just what i think, And believe me i hate to write this because i am a very agreeable person.

[Animalll2003lll]

(...)and do you think it has anything to do with genes? No it doesn't. It's really a matter of cultural and technological evolution (cf Jared Diamond Guns Gerns and Steel).



Civilization, economic development and the formation of institutions that make countries thrive technologically and economically, and eventually dominate others, is the result of a long and fragile cultural evolution that cannot take place in a bad environment, or among bad values (like in Africa, ...

[Animalll2003lll]

...but also like in many other places in the world). What's hard to grasp is that the IQ variations among humans actually have little to do in the accumulation of technology, institutions, infrastructures, companies, and values that will in turn reinforce that evolution. Developed nations are not 'more intelligent peoples' but rather have accumulated better technologies/cultures, by chance, because their environment forced them to. As Jared Diamond points out, ...

[Animalll2003lll]

...the people from New Guinea are freaking smart and intelligent, but they just didn't develop the 'civilization' type of culture in their environment. It's also well-known that religions/values can influence the outcome of economic life, or quality of life in a society. For example Protestantism evolved from Catholicism and mutated so as to favour the capitalist/individualistic social system that we know today.

So how could the Europeans make prosperous colonies ...

[Animalll2003lll]

...in those places that didn't evolve 'advanced civillization' by themselves? Well because they brought with them their animals/technology/values that could not really have been domesticated elsewhere than in agrarian Europe (cf Guns Germs and Steel).

I hope I could convince you, and if you have time, I highly recommend Jared Diamond's Guns Germ and Steel not only for these questions, but also because it's full of fascinating historical facts.

Also check that mind blowing article ...

[Animalll2003lll]

(1rst part)I can understand that you have this impression, but it is scientifically untrue. This theory of a link between race and civilization/development just doesn't fit with the data. Think of the parts of Europe who just got through a genocide, like Bosnia, or the Irish who still behave in a very tribal way, or just let's think about the european 'barbarians' before antiquity, (while Greece was a great civilization). This is some serious backwardness/economic suicide, by some whites,...

[Animalll2003lll]

...on Neanderthals: they were actually as or more intelligent than us but could not talk as well as us, so we could communicate and diffuse technologies/tools better than them, and we wiped them :S (google "Neanderthals Were Too Smart to Survive" it should be the first one)

and check out Paul Collier's talk for TED, about development!

I also recommend you read about memetics and cultural evolution because it's really mind blowing too.

Have a nice day! See you around!

[dollaresque]

This is really fascinating and awesome video. However, it is also possible that when a less "potent" or less harmful virus variety emerges, this is not an evolution of the WHOLE virus from one stage to another but rather an emergence of a somewhat new virus that lives/operates under different conditions, thus infecting/reaching people in a different way and having different symptoms (less harmful ones). The "strong" original virus is still around, until conditions for re-emergence are ripe again

[trakkaton]

Of course selection means most of the time only a change in quantity, only seldom extinction takes place. And even if extinction takes place, evolution can produce new variants that are actually similar or identical to the extinct original. However it is very likely that once water systems improved this stays this way.

[Deathicorn]

I would also say this wouldn't have to be explored. Not that its entirely a bad thing. Most of the problems we face were brought about by the way things are currently lived. Technology comes with a great price when it exceeds humanity.

[tillo2008]

while I understand his aims, I disagree with intelligent "interventionist" design of germs will not benefit Humans at this time.

Remember the not-so-old "I am Legend" movie (and quite old book as well)? They took the measles and claimed it cured cancer and created a monster.

Also, every new technology is swallowed by governments. Look at chemical WMDs. I fear that germ warfare would merely get more advanced than it already is of such a discovery would be weaponized.

The human race isn't ready

[kDest]

"Remember the not-so-old "I am Legend" movie (and quite old book as well)? They took the measles and claimed it cured cancer and created a monster."

Viruses, bacteria, can never work like that. Variance in a population means that wiping the human race out from a single pathogen is impossible.

"Also, every new technology is swallowed by governments. Look at chemical WMDs."

This isn't a new technology, though. It is a way of using evolution to our benefit.

[TravisMorien]

"Remember the not-so-old "I am Legend" movie (and quite old book as well)? They took the measles and claimed it cured cancer and created a monster."

It's probably better to just stick to studying science and history, rather than zombie flicks. The movie and book took some pretty major liberties with science, and not just with the vampire-zombie things.

[tillo2008]

i wasn't expecting people to take my "I am legend" example quite so literally. I suppose that I should have somehow instilled that I meant it metaphorically. I realize we're not going to turn into bloodthirsty zombies through germ manipulation.

However, there are still groups that believe that AIDS was created by governments (some say USA, others say otherwise).

My opinion is that germ manipulation will only enable more "population control" among leaders with a poor moral bearing.

[TravisMorien]

"there are still groups that believe that AIDS was created by governments" Scientifically we know that isn't the case. HIV is known to have come from apes in Africa, probably it got into human populations from eating improperly cooked bushmeat. Clearly work needs to be done to improve scientific literacy, but why should we be any more bothered by some people thinking HIV is a govt conspiracy than we are about other people thinking the Earth is flat? Some people are just stupid.

[abitcrunchy]

There was no conspiracy. Government Scientist were working on a new vaccine at a lab in Africa. They propagated the disease on monkey tissue. They then tested said vaccine, not knowing that the tissue carried the HIV. It was injected into humans.

[TravisMorien]

Actually the virus is closely related to SIV (simian immunodeficiency virus) which has been in wild ape populations probably for hundreds of thousands of years.

Epidemiologists have done genetic testing and other things and estimate that SIV first crossed into humans and mutated into HIV in the very early 20th century, presumably from eating poorly cooked bush meat.

Plus... there were no vaccine labs in that part of the world in 1920!

[abitcrunchy]

"Epidemiologists have done genetic testing and other things and estimate that SIV first crossed into humans and mutated into HIV in the very early 20th century, presumably from eating poorly cooked bush meat."

Everything I read suggest it wasn't the 20's but more like the late 50's.

The earliest known blood sample containing antibodies against HIV was traced back to 1959. I can not find any evidence that the disease existed before then.

[abitcrunchy]

Scientist like to have *evidence* so there must be some in existence somewhere...if you know of it, please do share!

They "estimate" and they "presume" but where is the evidence?

[TravisMorien]

Genetic testing of populations of the virus, along with known rates of mutation, allow a kind of HIV paternity testing to be done. We can trace mutations back to work out when particular genes evolved and thus put a date on when one strain split from another one.

If you wish to see this evidence try doing a PhD in genetics, then you'll understand the peer reviewed published papers which any subscriber to the applicable scientific journals can read.

Not all of that information is on Google!

[abitcrunchy]

Enough with the ego...I get it, you have a degree...

"If you wish to see this evidence try doing a PhD in genetics, then you'll understand the peer reviewed published papers which any subscriber to the applicable scientific journals can read."

That's all I'm asking for - evidence - . Do you have any? I have access to many peer reviewed journals, any reference would do...

[TravisMorien]

Do you think that a person tested in 1959 was the first person to contract it? The virus emerged in an undeveloped part of Africa where medical facilities were not fantastic. What do you think are the odds that they managed to find patient 0? Do you think it might be possible that this first verified HIV case was not in fact the first person to get it?

Multiple lines of evidence lead to the estimate that the first HIV infection was some time around the 20s and we only noticed HIV much later.

[abitcrunchy]

"Multiple lines of evidence lead to the estimate that the first HIV infection was some time around the 20s and we only noticed HIV much later."

Reference?

That's all I'm asking for. I've looked myself, so I figured you either know about something I can't find...or you're brainwashed by your pharma-textbooks.

Which is it? : )

[abitcrunchy]

Medical facilities were not "fantastic" in Africa but vaccine programs were/are. They use people of lesser means as guinea pigs.

No, I'm not saying it's impossible for someone to have had HIV/AIDS in the 20's. However, the idea that one person, or even a few persons were the ones who spread it into the epidemic numbers that it suddenly reached...

Suddenly - and the outbreak of AIDS certainly does coincide with the dates of the vaccine program unofficially carried out by Koprowski.

[Seanburchell]

There was a guy who was experimenting with viruses and how he could use them to cure aids and cancer. I saw it one week and never heard about it again, what happened to it? get that guy on TED he was achieving results.

[5uper5tring]

the idea of using viruses for gene therapy is old and has not made much progress.

[damianpoirier]

Yes, I definatly remember reading about a 95% remission fro prostate cancer using engeneered viruses over ten years ago. and since then? nothing. go figure.

[MickB0529]

who knows..maybe one day they'll use this to deal with earth's overpopulation..kinda like in "12 Monkeys".

[damianpoirier]

MickB0529, are you volunteering to help reduce the population by one?

[Zetimenvec]

I dunno, he seems far up his own ass with ideas. Not bad ideas mind you, just very imposing.

[Tilley540]

its the way forward in the war against pathogens

[Deathicorn]

So you think all pathogens are bad?

[harryogre]

A pathogen by its definition is an agent that causes disease, especially a living microorganism such as a bacterium or fungus.

Not all germs are pathogens but all pathogens are harmful.

[Deathicorn]

Well stated. I'll ask you this, is it "always" a bad thing that they harm?

[harryogre]

I would say no, its not always a bad thing that they harm.

All who survive are stronger. The weak die. The species is improved.

Sounds harsh but its true.

[zbambam5]

I love this stuff.

[Deathicorn]

I hope nobody says oops we made a mistake and created super virus my bad.

[zbambam5]

well thats the good thing about having them in controlled environments. But it is possible to that they will create new viruses that can be very harmful. But im willing to trust the people who've taken away some of the most widespread destructive diseases (small pocks, polio, etc.) than accuse them of trying to infect the world.

[Deathicorn]

zbambam5 your basically telling me accidents don't happen. Then you admit that they might. As well as putting words into my mouth that I'm accusing. I merely made a joke and I'm reminded again humor doesn't text very well.

[Tilley540]

also were not atempting to create a virus its simply making it evolve more mild by forcing the virus to keep the host alive

[Deathicorn]

Tilley540 your still messing around with a virus think about.

[5uper5tring]

Deathicorn

It is obvious you are not intelligent enough to understand this video.

oops my bad LOL

dumba55

[Deathicorn]

5uper5tring I do understand. You're not worth anymore time then I just gave you.

[5uper5tring]

deathicorn

no one is making "new" anything here, only stopping the transmission of the the more virulent (harmful) strains. I wish there was an IQ prereq for commenting on certain vids.

[Deathicorn]

I will agree with your IQ prereq. Also like to add to being open to understand people then just be quick to cut them down. I think it both goes hand in hand. This comment deserves a thumbs up not a thumbs down.