Patrick Chan's score at the 2009 World SP... Your thoughts?

[chihiro602]

He didn't do his best at the olympics... hopefully the long program would boost him.

[Aveenogreen]

He is awesome!

[DarrenInCA]

To all those talking about advancing the sport by using quads and using Brian Joubert as an example, AS IF! Even his "advanced" jump layout and amount pales in comparison to 2002 and 2006 standards. Only ONE quad? And NOT in combination??? Where's the advancement in that? Didn't he say he was going to do three quads? I have yet to see all three.

If you are going to talk it, then bring it. Otherwise shut it. And I actually LIKE Brian. But his PCS were super inflated at Worlds.

[louielamson2000]

SALUT!!!

[ZxUchihaxZ]

Brian could learn a thing or 2 by watching Patrick in action with this song! =P

[lauraxo123]

ummm...why are there so many thumbs down for this comment?? :S i completely agree with that!

THUMBS UP! :D

[tsunami70875]

well, it seems like i, unlike you, want the sport to advance.

[tsunami70875]

*sighs*

incase you've missed what i'm saying, it's just that the quad should be further integrated into men's skating, just to advance the sport. the only reason i'm arguing for joubert is because he's the one that been pushing for the quad, why patrick hasn't, and has even been almost discouraging of it.

[lauraxo123]

calm down sparky! can you please get it through your head that patrick chan is only 18!!!!!!??!?!?!?! COOL i dont think many men can land a quad at that age let alone put it in a program for worlds!!! Leave the kid alone and watch out for his quad in a couple years...maybe even next year! Patrick Chan is something special and i think a lot of you are forgetting he is a CHILD!

Plus, there is no point in men putting quads in a program when they cant do it. That is stupid. GO PATRICK! (L)

[allame151]

He is young and he does have potential. That doesn't mean in the short at this competition he was the best skater. Joubert had a small stumble on a FAR more difficult element and his overall skating isn't that much worse than Chan's.

And there are plenty of men who landed quads in competition at that age and who had great (and may I add far superior artistry to Chan's): Yagudin, Plushenko, Lambiel, Takahashi...

I would have put him ahead of Lysacek here but thats it.

[tsunami70875]

Yeah, I know perfectly well that Patrick has tons of potential. That's not up for questioning. But, I still don't like his attitude towards the quad, and because of so many people like that, the sport is almost going backwards. There are actually plenty of people have done quads at 18 or younger (Joubert, Plushenko, Lambiel...even Kevin Reynolds, although Reynolds has alot to work on).

Sure, maybe don't do a quad if you can't, but it should be something that the top-level skaters all have.

[lauraxo123]

Kevin Reynolds is a prime example! True, he has the quad...so in your minds he should be on top JUST because he can land the jumps? Clearly thats not what the sport is about or else kevin would be on the podium or close to it at worlds. Plushenko...BS! he did exactly what brian is doing now. Sacrificing the difficulty of the program for his jumps and just going psycho on easy moves. I really hope plushenko doesnt come back for the oylmpics...i will be so unbelievably pissed! patrick>brian>plushy

[tsunami70875]

I think you're missing my point. I've said many times, I'm not trying to convince people to drop everything and do the quad, I'm just saying that it's something the top-level skaters should just have. We don't think that we have to throw it all away for the triple axel, do we? So we should be having everyone being able to quads, just so it is in the same position as the triple axel (in skater's mentality.

[lauraxo123]

yes, the top level skaters, i guess, should be able to do a quad, but maybe some of them just can't do it yet???

and well, brian joubert sure sacrifices his program for the quad sooo.....ya. I dont know of many skaters right now who do a quad in their programs and still maintain the same performance level as somebody like Patrick Chan. An example is Jeremy Abbott. When he tried the quad, he got nowhere in skating. Now that he's scrapped it, look where he is now (im not a fan, but its true)

[ZxUchihaxZ]

Yeah he is pretty young for someone so young who squishes in studying and e.t.c.

[allame151]

If you watch the other skaters with quads who didn't make the podium they had nothing else to their skating. Brian had difficult spins and footwork. I would agree that his artistry is overall limited compared to the greats of the past, but it isn't completley nonexistent. And while I may find Chan's skating a little more entertaining than Joubert, the fact that technically he is far behind him is enough to put Joubert ahead.

My standings:

Verner

Joubert

Chan

Lysacek

[lutz84]

The COP actually favours consistent jumpers without a quad like Patrick Chan. In the old days without a quad, you won't even be in the running! Back then skaters were segregated by an imaginery discrete boundary - in the late 80s early 90s it was a triple axel you must have to be considered and later on with Yagudin and Pluschenko leading the way, quads are MUSTs! Even Jeff Buttle himself admitted that with the old scoring system he would not stand a chance ...

[lutz84]

I saw Brian J give an interview after one of his practices & reporters asked him what he thought of Patrick's comments that he's just good for quads & his basic skating is not good. His answer was very polite, saying he doesn't understand why Patrick said that because Patrick seems like a nice guy. Brian just said that he would try his best to compete. Evan Lysacek was asked about the SP too and he just said that he was happy with his placing and that Brian is a skater he looked up to.

[lutz84]

I watched the event live & I was surprised that Patrick was quite slow but it is justified because his footwork is intricate. Brian skates a lot faster but with less content. PCS wise I do think Patrick should score higher.

However I also think Patrick is very lucky to have won a medal here. He landed all 3 3As in the comp. His hit rate was <50% during the practices. His single toe after the 2nd 3A in the LP is HUGE because otherwise he would not receive points for his 2nd 3A.

[chesterfield2]

Joubert has been competing on the world stage for a long time; he is no gentleman! Patrick Chan is 18 years old and speaks his mind without calling anybody a nancy boy.

[chesterfield2]

tsunami 70875: I mean immature. Off ice he's bigoted and condescending (calls competitors "Nancy boys" etc.) He knows about jumping. His edging probably wouldn't pass figures which used to be 60 percent of the score. He can jump, no argument there. How His basic skating?. Good spins? Immature sportsmanship and immature skating. he can jump, period. his landings are awesome. But just because he limits his focus doesn't mean the whole sport and all its history needs to do likewise.

[allame151]

I find it funny that Chan disagrees about the quad yet himself cannot do it.

[lauraxo123]

actually...patrick chan can land a quad, hes just not comfortable enough with it to put it in his program. just like evan lysacek is capable of doing a quad...but he didnt put one in his program, so why isnt anyone complaining about him? hes the one who won worlds....

just watch, next year patrick chan is going to have a quad in his program!

[allame151]

I've heard the same talk of Johnny Weir since 2003 and its 2009 and he still hasn't landed a clean one foot quad in competition. He is far from the only one and until Patrick does one in competition it doesn't count.

As far as Lysacek goes, he won because others made mistakes. It makes sense even if I don't care for his skating.

[allame151]

People keep missing the point, the two aren't mutually exclusive. Look at the points between jumps, most triple triple combinations gain more points than a quad when the quad is *much* harder. There have to be at least 50 skaters in the world who can do a triple triple yet there are probably less than 10 that can do a quad, now tell me, does that make sense?

Also, Lambiel, Plushenko, Yagudin, and a few others were able to find a balance, it can be done.

[tsunami70875]

^Agree with this.

OK, you admit that the sport hasn't been advancing. So, then, while we're creating a new system altogether, why not encourage advancement?

And, if you notice a trend, only people who can't do a quad complain about it. Notice anything coming from the Americans? No, I didn't think so.

[tsunami70875]

I didn't say that they should all be sacrificed did I? I said the sport should be advanced, so as that the quad is not the OMGWTF jump, rather more like the triple axel. After all, we didn't sacrifice everything to have it pretty much be mandatory to do a triple axel, did we?

[lauraxo123]

is that why basically all the top female skaters in the world right now are asian?? i do believe patrick chan got ripped off, but i disagree that it had anything to do with the fact that he's asian

[Cherubfish]

Seems that the new ISU system becomes more vulnerable to bribery

[tsunami70875]

No, I don't. I think that in order for the sport to progress, there will need to be encouragement to do the quad.

And, if you must, I even think that Verner should have been placed ahead of Chan and Lysacek.

[tsunami70875]

And one more clarification: I think that the sport should progress so as to that the quad is just something you need, like how you absolutely need the triple axel right now, rather than the jump way out there, and then jump way out there are the next jumps in line (i.e. quad loop, flip, lutz)

Besides, don't be like: "Oh, the artistry's improved" Presentation doesn't improve exactly. It more or rather _evolves_

[chesterfield2]

Pantasio I am guessing you don't skate if you think the only possible risks to be taken exist in jumps! I agree with the poster who referred you to the ISU site!

[chesterfield2]

I do think there's a lot of horse trading that goes on , so we see weird results - anonymous judging - c'mon!!! I also think there are two value systems that could lead to there beign two sports - "jumping" and "choreographed movement made of edges, footwork, jumping, spinning..." I am a big fan of Patrick Chan (remember so amny amazing, transcendent skaters like David Liu and John Curry - I see this in Patrick Chan. I think Joubert is a gifted jumper but maybe the other word is immature.

[tsunami70875]

Do you mean an "immature" skating style? I think a better world for that might be "less melodic" or something like that (or "less graceful")?

[chesterfield2]

I mean immature. Off ice he's bigoted and condescending (calls competitors "Nancy boys" etc.) He knows about jumping. His edging probably wouldn't pass figures which used to be 60 percent of the score. He can jump, no argument there. How His basic skating?. Good spins? Immature sportsmanship and immature skating. he can jump, period. his landings are awesome. But just because he limits his focus doesn't mean the whole sport and all its history needs to do likewise.

[tsunami70875]

I agree with the fact that his edge quality and spins wouldn't quite compare with Patrick. From what I've been saying before is, however, jumps should be improved in figure skating, and that's something than Brian has always been pushing for. Personally, I haven't heard much about bad sportsmanship off the ice (except last year at worlds), except for this year, when Patrick and Brian were trading blows, and I haven't heard complaints about the scoring this year (from Brian), but Patrick has.

[chesterfield2]

Joubert was criticising J Buttle for not having a quad; Chan was defending his countryman/teammate. Not very classy of Joubert. Some people like jumps, others like skating and vive la difference.

[tsunami70875]

Chan wasn't exactly "defending" Buttle anymore, he was openly attacking Joubert and his scores (i.e. calling him a sore loser, the whole "'I'm really disappointed about that. A lot of people are going to be talking about it. I'm not going to say anything. It's pretty obvious the big difference between me and Evan against Joubert. It's really frustrating for me and especially Evan.'" and whatever that comment was at the end of the freeskate about the PCS again.

[tsunami70875]

In case _you_ missed it, I was stating that jumps are the _single_ most important part - of course the "total package" beats jumps - it includes jumps within itself. Ok yeah, I agree that Verner was excellent this year at worlds, and could've beaten Joubert, especially with he double axel fall. But, you're still missing my point - there should be more encouragement to try the quad, which is why I'm a huge fan of Verner, Joubert, and Takahashi.

[tsunami70875]

And, another thing, unfortunately, is that all PCS are really subject to opinion - I'd take Joubert's SP from last year over Patrick Chan's now, since I think it's a good program.

[tsunami70875]

Then why do you think that Joubert is even complaining about worlds last year? Seriously, if jumps _aren't_ the single most important part, then what do you think is? You're talking how Chan is beating the crap out of everyone without a quad, because he's so great every else - and I'm not saying he's not - but this is exactly the problem that Joubert is complaining about. If you are going to discourage doing quads, then how is the sport going to advance?

[EdwardJasiewicz]

But his chest and jumps impress the sex starved matrons who judge this silly sport.

[lauraxo123]

HAH! legit comment right there, but its so true

[tsunami70875]

You really can't say that jumps aren't the _single_ most important part of figure skating. Most of the time, you don't go "Please, god, don't like Patrick trip in his footwork/fall on his spin/screw up his choreography" It almost always: "Come on Patrick, land the triple axel, and your PCS will carry you through." Or you disagree maybe?

[JordanjamesX]

There seems to be a strong anti European bias against Joubert on this board. I think it is because for SO MANY years in men`s figure skating the Europeans have been dominating.

[EdwardJasiewicz]

I think it is because he is unbalanced as a skater: all technique and second rate artistry. But, then when did artistry ever count in figure skating?

[cerdanM]

I also think that the technical bar should also try to be raised. This is a sport. This is not a performance art event, like ballet. If you can do the quads, go for it. And you should be scored higher because of it, as long as it is done correctly. it is much easier to be artistic if you focus on that, then it is doing the athletic aspects of the sport. I also think if the west skaters were doing the quads there would be much people complaining. And i am for the U.S.A.

[tsunami70875]

I honestly think that Chan did have a equal or better program that Joubert in this segment. But I dislike the comments he said about Joubert and the quad since there is quite a bit of truth in what Joubert said: the technical bar isn't being pushed enough, and I think the reason so many people in North America oppose it is because, frankly, not many North Americans do quads. One more thing: the complaint about program component scores now is about equal to Joubert's complaint about last year.

[castleiris]

It's really wired that Patrick got lower score in presentation than his technical score. In addition, Jubert didn't even landed well his quad-double toe. And he had good scores in both tech and presentation...Wierd...

[xxxlilgansta100]

well... i like him weather or not he wins

[HelTra91]

his component score should have been much higher, i mean look at that footwork and his presentation, he is like no other! very expressive and technical. I heard he lost marks for the wrong edge take off on his flip but his technical score was still pretty high. Joubert had a less than stellar performance and shouldn't be feeling too safe that he's in first cause the scores are close. good luck to all skaters and here's hoping there is fair judging during the freeskate. (i babble, sorry)

[kjwilson032383]

he was totally ripped off! i am a competitive skater myself. i would prefer a clean skate with beautiful artistry and clean triples over 1 with botched quads and meaningless arm movements and inferior artistry anyday! Like seriously how are jouberts component scores higher???? like come on now. This is proof the new scoring system is a crock of smelly poo!

[lauraxo123]

You cant blame this on the new judging system. If they were using the old system they would have still given joubert higher presentation marks. Also, Patrick may not have had the success he's been having because where he is superior to everybody else is on things such as spins and footwork, which were never rewarded in the old system. Btw, the PCS marks were waaayyyy too low for Patrick.....maybe Brian had more performance...maybe...but how can those judges even say his TR and CH were better

[EdwardJasiewicz]

Yes, I agree. We need Dick Button here to say again that arm-swinging bamboozling shouldn't be taken seriously!

[Dadocarpin]

He has wonderful skating skills... look at the way he can move his body on ice... he is great, elegant and performed a clean program. So in my opinion he is the best in this competition...

I like Joubert too... he is obviously more "los angeles" than Chan, but his jump at the beginning wasn't so good... so in this Sp I prefer Chan.

It's not fair to say that the score was "the judges way of saying that he has to wait his turn"...

[detectiveonline]

I am so surprise to see these scores only Chan 2 points behind Joubert !!! No way his program lack of dynamism and difficulty , and artisticly Joubert is Superior than chan , he has a program with more speed, more risky and far difficult than chan. So I prefer to see Chan out of podium because he doesn't deserve it. And for persons who said chan gave to audience the biggest pleasure, DONT FORGET THE COMPETITION IS IN LOS ANGELOS !!!!! IF it was in Europe, it was another thing

[BaokieXiong]

This kid's choreography is freaking BRILLIANT.

[fsfan22]

C'mon guys ... it's just the short. He's only 2 points behind Joubert. Let the long program tell the tale.

Yes, Chan's PCS scores should have been higher ... but that's probably the judges way of saying that he has to wait his turn.

[kwillyau]

He totally covers all aspects of the PCS. Why the overall totals of his PCS are lower than Joubert's amazes me, particularly when Joubert' choreography and transitions are so lacking.

[pantasie44]

Joubert deserves higher PCS because his program is more exciting. Boasting so-called "choreography" and "transiton" without taking risks is arrogant enough. (Of couese I know the 3A is a very risky factor for this guy, lol). I want this healthy treand to prevail to Vancouver. No quad, no gold. I hope Chan to be kicked off the podium buy "real" skater.

[kwillyau]

Are you Psycho from FSU?

Excitement is only covered by one programme component in performance/execution (which also covers fist pumping and hip thrusting - that is if you a gullible enough to buy it). As for CH and TR, I suggest you do some study of what these programme components actually entail because you are certainly demonstrating a lack of understanding of knowledge of what they entail. The information is available from the ISU website.

[pantasie44]

Do you seriously believe those things? The judges are flowned by Chan's arrogance and rewarded Joubert's gut. Chan coudn't do the 3A until the age of 16 and still struggling with the 3A combo. In terms of jumping abilities, Mao Asada and Adam Rippon are better than him. At least they can do two 3 axels. The 82+ SP score is still generous. Such an inferior skater who has no talent but stealing medals shoudn't be in the final flight.

[pantasie44]

Simply put, intricated transitions and choreography worth less in low risk programs. Going for difficult jumps takes alot of enegy and mental toughness. Only those skaters ready for those risks should be rewarded properly with high PC marks. I was impressed by Joubert's charisma on ice and the judges must have felt the same way. It's more than a joke for a man to be called the "favorite" at senior men's world championship with inferior jumping ability to the champions of ladies and junior men.

[cakesncookies1]

Sure, difficult jumps takes a lot of energy and mental toughness.. but seriously.. it's so much easier to go for them when you're just doing crossovers and jumping versus complete skating

[pantasie44]

Of course it's so much easier to gain points by concentrating on low risk parts. I think PC should be the tie-breaker among skaters with same levels of jumps. Chan's SP PCS is about 5 points higher that it should be (on par with Rippon). If I was a Canadian, I must deplore the fact that the national champ is inferior to No.7 American and the bronze medalist can't even do a solo 3A. Stojko and Browning may feel the same.

[cakesncookies1]

First of all, you can't compare between competitions and secondly, if Patrick skated at US nationals, there's no way he would place close to Adam Rippon and would be on the podium.

He may not have the quad yet, but the quality of his skating and landing of his jumps are undeniable.

I understand why you might feel frustrated..maybe it's because the depth of men's skating isn't where it used to be.

[pantasie44]

If Chan skates at US nats, there's no way he can receive those outrageous PC marks. The USFS has no need to send a man who can't do two 3 axels to senior men's WC in the first place. I see Chan is a reflection of Skate Canada's desperation and relentless "efforts".

[BaokieXiong]

He's an 18-year old. He's just a kid on this word stage, and you know what, he still has a long career ahead of him and for him to be at this level already is amazing. We'll see how he does in the long

[EdwardJasiewicz]

F*ck that theory - he already won and was cheated! This sport is a joke, like many "judged" sports.

[aliaschick24]

Just because Patrick doesn't have a quad, in no way means that he has inferior jumping ability. His jumps in the short program were amazing and clean.

[strongestass]

It's figure skating, it's about giving the audience the biggest artistic pleasure, not about jumping around like fleas.

[pantasie44]

Figure skating is a major olympic sport. Artistry has been always an excuse for inferior skaters (and their fans) to justify technical weaknesses.

[BaokieXiong]

Honestly, I'd rather watch a program with INCREDIBLE artistry rather than one that has a load of huge jumps.

Sorry to say but even that amazing choreography that Chan shows beats anyone's quad.

[pantasie44]

Chan has ripped off 4 golds this season. I'm somewhat releaved to see the judges are not willing to give out the fourth. If he wins, Plushenko's record is broken. It's really shame for them to let that happen. The youngest ever world champion who can't even land a triple axel combo!

[jayta78]

Puh-lease. I might agree with SC's judging podium. However the other 3 events he skated in, he won those fair and square. Not like the other skaters had stellar programs.

[Uglefanatikeren]

Complete rip-off!