Victor Agosto and Travis Bishop: WAR RESISTERS

[kentek2007]

That's bull man your damned if you do and damned if you don't. Army bastards the way they treat good whole hearted people making the right decision not to KILL in the name of a false Government. Obama is a fake, his real name is Barry Sorenteno and he was born and school in Asia under muslim religion. and we're fighting His and Bush's asshole war for OIL and mineral resources. o

[roaringwaterbay]

yes, trusting the government is a mistake.

[tnbitfigures]

To thesepipes. "Killing woman and children are the norm" "they are fighting to steal oil" give me a break. You should be held responsible for being a traitor to your country. I've been over there twice, what about you. I know what It's like. Handing out humanitarian relief, rebuilding public swimming pools, going house to house to see if there's anything we could do for the neighborhood and so on. Oh, I almost forgot, killing a few insurgents who decided to shot at us for doing these things.

[thesepipesRclean]

Soldiers are not fighting for our rights or freedom , that is a ridiculous lie . They are fighting to steal oil . They have made a mess out of Iraq and have to be held just as responsible as the greedy bastards who sent them to kill and die for the sake of stealing oil and overthrowing a USA sponsored madman .

[bobyjhousinit]

Too true , nobody has threatened our right to protest since England before the Revolutionary War ! Yet , Republicans say thos soldiers are fighting for your right to protest . Ummm no , the Iraqis never tried to take that away did they ?

[Sporkmater]

Except it was never about the oil to begin with. Also it did not help that Iraq was a mess from the beginning due to the Iran Iraq war. But We are trying to fix things there.

[thesepipesRclean]

I hope there are fixable thing in Iraq . I hope most soldiers have their heart in the right place , but yes it was always about oil and only about oil . It is no coincidence that there are USA military bases on top of 90% of the worlds oil reserves . Don't kid yourself , it is always about oil .

[Sporkmater]

I have to disagree about the oil, it is kinda like saying that we went to Afghanistan because of the opium. If this where the case there would seem to be a lot better ways to do it and without the use of troops. Tryng to do a mental count of our bases near oil overseas;

Kuwait is the only big one that stands out. What other bases are you thinking of?

[nykolieC]

the funny thing about amy is...

she was over him months ago, yet he just wouldnt leave her alone.

he has many sides to his personality, none of which are admirable. he struck me as a cocky, quasi con artist who thought he could talk his way out of anything.

too bad he joined the army in the middle of a war...

given that he didnt BELIEVE in war.

silly fool.

bishop thinks that this will help his music career, but anyone who meets him face to face is going to know how big of a joke he is.

[Msbimerlover]

Good Soldiers obey orders even they might not like it, but they understand it's their duty. Bishop is not one of them. He is selfish and lazy. During the time he worked under me, there wasn't a day I didn't counsel him on his irresponsible behavior. He put himself before his Soldiers. He was always late at work and gone not a min late after 1700. He would not stay a minute late to help his Soldiers when they needed him. He was never anti wars. it was just his way to get out of deploying.

[JBriggs562]

finally some people who know the same travis bishop i do. he was never anti-war, he's more pro..........travis, yeah. known the guy since we were roomates in korea back in 2005, and whenever there would be a rumor about deploying he would automatically start panicing. he deserves what he got.

[nowellian]

Congratulations Victor!

[napalmloveskids]

Thanks for leaving your "Brothers" hanging! I hope none of them get killed because the coward in his company could not grab his balls and do what he swore under oath to do. Wheather you believe in it, is out of the question. You have a legal and moral obligation to do your duty! You are the biggest coward, I have buddies with amputations wishing they could be with us fighting and doing what they signed up to do. Your Hippy friends standing out on the corner by the east gate Need to get a life!

[Sporkmater]

Bishop got a year to Victor's 30 days.

[thesepipesRclean]

Only a coward would go to a war where 80% of those being killed are women and children and that is how it is in both Iraq and Afghanistan . Once he saw how we were bombing residential neighborhoods , hospitals , and elementary schools in Iraq , there is no way he could ever fight for this country again . Don't say that we weren't doing that because I have several friends who came back and they all said they had to kill children .

[Sporkmater]

I would like to see the proof for that, you can post it to my profile.

He never left the base. I have been on over 170 missions and you you talk about does not happen.

I want proof on that, if they say these things then why not report them to CID?

I question your statements because I have been there, you have not. This is not the normal activity in Iraq or Afghanistan.

[thesepipesRclean]

They get reported every day , you think that matters .? He never left the base ??? Victor Agosto spent 13 months in Iraq , are you too dumb to watch a 5 minute video and pay attention .? Killing women and children is absolutely the norm in Afghanistan and if you had been there you would know that .

[Sporkmater]

1. And validated? Remember Jesse Macbeth.

2. Yes, if you read his past history he stayed on the FOB working with computers and never saw combat.

3. I saw Iraq for 15 months so I really do not see how a fraud who never went out knows more about Iraq then me.

4. Really? US soldiers slaughter whole villages at random? I know people who have been their on the remote bases, so no it is not the norm.

Got answer about my Order 227 question yet?

[JBriggs562]

*BULLSHIT CARD

[JBriggs562]

shut up. where do you get your information. go smoke a bowl you retarded hippy.

[thesepipesRclean]

This man is a hero , stand up for your beliefs and lead others in doing the right thing . Victor Agosto , keep your chin up , it is too bad most soldiers lack your ability to think clearly and do what is right .

[Sporkmater]

No he is not. He joined in a time of war and refused to his job when it inconvenienced him.

He is not a hero.

[Sporkmater]

Thirty days confinement, reduced to E-1 and a expected other then honorable discharge. So that would prevent him from getting his GI and other benefits.

Over all a light sentence.

[kap46z]

Wait a minute. You signed up in 2005 or 2006, and you said that when you singed up you thought your govt would only send you to war if it was absolutely necessary. guy, the war started sometime in 2002. wtf? i read that you went to college for tw0 years in dade county or something. were you high the entire time? you didn't know that there were wars going on for a few yeas by the time you went to a recruiter? you made those poor ppl in the cafe believe your sob story?

[kap46z]

I can't believe I let these guys have three more views. GOD!!!

[kap46z]

And let me subtitle this video: I don't want to be the Army anymore. If it's easy to quit a job at McDonalds, why can't I just quit the Army? Because they won't let me quit, I'll make it seem like I understand war, be against it, and not want to go ever again. In the end, I'm scared. Well, I'll keep pretending that UTHC makes good coffee until the Army legal system just boots me out ... eventually. Until then, I'll keep making crappy videos. thanks, Vic.

[kap46z]

Vic, do you really expect to receive sympathy for you defense in stating that your govt deceived you? You don't remember the oath that you took. It never made any mention of YOU choosing wars you want to go on. "I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appoint over you" I think. Thanks for serving but don't go from one institution to another institution. Seems to me that UTHC is serving up the orders now ... with a little splash of brainwashing.

[LeftySteve]

1. Thnx for putting this video out, to those who produced it, filmed it, ect... Victor Agosto nor Travis BIshop's names are not in the news as resisting this war. This is a story NOT to be covered by the mainstream media. To cover this story would give it credibility and offer vidication.

2. I'm unsure besides making a finacial donation what more could I do support these two soldiers who have shown a path of resistence opening the door for countless others to follow.

IN SOLIDARITY

[skinnychef]

hey steve- i don't know why my comment wouldn't post...

anyhoo. google "courage to resist" there is a good resource to find aout more about these guys and how to support war resisters...

and thanks for being nice! you rule!

xoxox

skinnychef

[skinnychef]

oh you can also support "under the hood cafe" in killeen tx. they help alot of enlisted men and women that disagree with these illegal wars. they always need financial and other support too...

[Sporkmater]

But you have to remember that with the problems in Detroit and Korea that this story is not that big.

Also in your opinion, how would his views hold weight if he never left the Fob? Becuase if you do not go out and see what is happening you do not have much to go on what is happening in Iraq or Afghanistan that is good or bad.

But in order to do that he will have to some how prove that he will have to follow a illegal order. To which has yet to be done.

[LeftySteve]

These soldiers both serving prior in Iraq may add to their crediblity. I don't view a prior tour in Iraq or Afganistan as a prereq. to knowledge that these troops in Iraq & Afganistan are occupying those countries. Something that stands in direct conflict to the fundamental tenents of this country.

[Sporkmater]

But have have\am serving in Iraq too with a opposite view. Also I would be willing that I have been outside the base more then he has. So how does he claim to know more about Iraq that I do?

Also I view Afghanistan being justified because of the action the previous government there was doing. Also it was supported by the UN and NATO. Something that rarely happens.

So the only real defense is if he is trying to prove that if he went that he would have to follow a illegal order. What is it?

[Sporkmater]

Also getting back to Victor, what "illegal" orders would he have been forced to do? A specific order that would have violated the laws of war.

Both conflicts where approved in Congress and Afghanistan was sanctioned by the UN. So I do not see how ether conflicts could be called illegal.

[FluxRostrum]

so congress & our executive branch are committing war crimes... why does that mean Victor needs to participate in that?

White phosphorous, depleted uranium, war against people who've done us no harm and before you go chanting 911 you should google "Richard Gage on KMPH Fox 26 in Fresno, CA"

[Sporkmater]

1. We use WP to illuminate targets and the Tallibain has been caught using it against civilain targets.

2. There is no law against DP

3. Tell me what "war crimes" he would have done being based inside the FOB?

Once again this is not a defense of the original invasion but to stress that we need to make sure that the Iraqi people can live normal lives. Something that I think it a worthy goal.

I do support the invasion of Afghanistan.

[CherylSpeaksOut]

5 and MBN, & Fav, well done. . it's called Conscientious Objector and goes back to WW1. We are keeping the push on Harper to pull our troops out of Afghanistan , while Obama is pushing 4 more & killing civilians in Pakistan too,. I hope more come forward. I regret that harper bushite has reneged on Canada being home for war resistors, because we have always been safe for them. When he is out this summer I hope that will change. Makes good point staying there will encourage more to RESIST WAR.

[skinnychef]

hi cheryl! and thanks for your support! yeah, it all started with one- victor- and then two- travis- all within the month of May! so i think the movement has begun.

victor's actions are already and will continue to be an inspiration to enlisted men and women that recognize the peril these illegal wars create for the USA

I SUPPORT WAR RESISTERS!

[troy5690]

So these guys want to be in the forces but dont want to obey orders? WTF?

These guys need a new career path. You cant have your cake and eat it too.

[skinnychef]

hi troy, yes you can have your cake and eat it too. these guys signed up to protect our country, not to blindly follow orders into a war, or wars, that undermine our security as a nation. or wars that are based upon lies. or wars against a civilian population that poses NO THREAT.

the fact remains that our rulers have put us into that position and it is directly in conflict with the oath that all soldiers take to defend our country and our constitution.

following orders can make you culpable.

[Sporkmater]

Except that the order that where given where legal. No one is asking him to kill random civilians for the fun of it.

[skinnychef]

in a war an illegal war are there legal orders?

of all the wars that we are engaged in around the world, iraq is based upon fabricated evidence and lies and the use of an executive power that does not exist according to the constitution.

at this point afghanistan is an extension of that criminal act.

[Sporkmater]

The war is not illegal, you may disagree with it but nothing there would have a soldier break the laws of war.

Iraq while I understand the reason people where against it was done with the approval of congress. Now the issue facing use is do you think that Iraq would have been better off if we had left in 03 and not tried to prevent the violence from getting worse? Consider Somalia in the past decade.

To me it is not if Iraq was right or wrong, but helping the Iraqis get a normal life again.

[skinnychef]

i do not think it is our obligation to fix the world, nor do i think there are military solutions for cultural differences or "terrorism".

these wars have undermined OUR rights and security. the purpose of our military is to DEFEND those things.

[Sporkmater]

Like I said before regardless of if you think Iraq was justified or not, the ensuing chaos was a direct result of us taking out Saddam. If your concern is about all the civilian deaths in Iraq, then why does it seem like you do not care about the Chaos that we stepped in to stop and all the increased blood shed. Helping people recover from war is a noble goal in my eyes.

If this is about politics then protest the Patriot Act has been the biggest concern on the domestic front.

[skinnychef]

we had no cause to take out saddam.

we created a worse humanitarian situation for the iraqi people by destroying their infrastructure and killing a million people- mostly civilian.

we've cultivated an enormous amount of resentment towards the USA which increases the threat against us. domestically and abroad.

[Sporkmater]

This is not a defense of the invasion, It is making sure that Iraq is stable when we leave. Also the majority of the deaths have come from the terrorist groups inside Iraq and are the same one we are trying to stop. That is why we are training the AI and IP to be able to do that.

Also if there was any damage to the infrastructure we are making sure that it works before we leave. The goal of us being in Iraq it to make sure that they can have a real shot at letting it's people live safety.

[CherylSpeaksOut]

the CIA aka USA groomed Saddam since he was a teen to take over. Told him to go ahead an invade Kuwait and then back out and left him hanging. He was a puppet for the USA. "step into chaos" the CIA/USA help to create it prior to bushco and his daddy and Iraq.. Help people to recover, the USA created the monster, invated under false pretenses for OIL because of the bush family and slaughtered a whole nation.

[Sporkmater]

This is not about the wrongs of the past.(which is a another debate completely) This ii about now and making sure that the Iraqi population can have a normal life. Remember is is easy to say what should be done somewhere where you do not face the dangers.

So let me as you this. Do you think that Iraq would have been better off if we had left in 03 and why?

[schifferbrainz]

Pretending you care about the people of Iraq isn't fooling anyone.

[Sporkmater]

I do not have to pretend given that I have had a chance to help out the people of Iraq personally with medical care and supplies. It is not all talk.

It is easy to say that it is there problem when it is far away. Another when you are treating a 20 year old IA that is suffering from a terrorist attack that causes a broken leg with no pulse and shrapnel to the face when he is looking right at you. What have you done to make the world better?

[schifferbrainz]

Great. Now we know from whence your sanctimony comes.

History suggests that no matter when we leave Iraq the results will be the same. Polls suggest that most Iraqis want us to leave now. Yet you want to stay. What is wrong with this picture? We can keep playing world police and you can keep playing hero.

[Sporkmater]

Look, regardless of your views on if we should or should not have gone to Iraq, the people here need help. Yes there is a time line on getting out of Iraq and we are following it. But until then we need to help them out as much as we can so they can have a good chance to operate on their own with out fear of death by just going from one place to another.

This is not about politics, this is about making sure that people have their lives back from a war for better or worse, started.

[Sporkmater]

I do not have to pretend given that I have had a chance to help out the people of Iraq personally with medical care and supplies. It is not all talk.

It is easy to say that it is there problem when it is far away. Another when you are treating a 20 year old IA that is suffering from a terrorist attack that causes a broken leg with no pulse and shrapnel to the face when he is looking right at you. What have you done to make the world better?

[schifferbrainz]

What have I done to make the world better? I haven't been a sucker for corporate interests. I haven't killed women and children to increase Halliburton's profit margin. I haven't plugged my ears and kicked my feet when truth stares me in the face.

It's really easy to find opportunities to make yourself feel good when one forgets he is the source of that misery.

[Sporkmater]

We are not the one bombing markets and schools at random. You have no idea what goes on here do you? Do you have any first hand knowledge of what is like over here? How many Iraqis have you talked to? It is not all about politics as apposed to making sure that people's basic needs are met.

Also what I meant by that is what have you done for your community? How much time have you volunteered or stuff have you donated to help out those in need?

[schifferbrainz]

Your posts are designed to make yourself feel better, for whatever reason.

Your question was designed to help fabricate a holier-than-thou attitude. Do you really want to read a litany of my attempts "to better the world", or now, what I have "done for my community"?

Didn't think so.

And no, I'm sure you've never bombed anyone.

[Sporkmater]

Look, the point that you are missing is that even if we where to leave right now, they would be facing violence and bombings against them. What we are trying to do it to make sure that they have the means to protect and aid their population against those that would do her harm.

Just remember that when you go about you day that the worst thing you think about is not being late while the local Iraqi is concerned about not getting hit by a IED or a suicide bomber.

That is the point I am making.

[FluxRostrum]

wonder how much they'd have to worry about that if there wasn't a foreign occupying army in there country?

[Sporkmater]

That is why we are fighting against the Insurgents in Iraq. We are also following the timeline set by the Iraqi government. We shall be gone by 2011, not sure if I can say the same for the insurgents.

[FluxRostrum]

if some one occupied your coutry would you be an insurgent?

[Sporkmater]

I understand the logic, but you would/should not attack your own people. That is why a large part of the Sunnis(sp?) have rebelled against foreign fighters.

I get that we are military targets, but what is the logic in attacking a market or a religious building where the majority are civilians?

I mean have have a photo of a girls school that was bombed for not teaching or teaching things that the insurgents did not approve of.

Plus we are giving or taking down US bases over Iraq so we can go.

[schifferbrainz]

I know your point. I got it from the start.

People stateside are ignorant rubes.

You, however, are god's gift to Iraq and all of humanity.

You're spreading the same warmonger bullshit we've heard for SIX YEARS NOW. You won't even consider the possibility that you're wrong. The reality that we have screwed an entire country is too much reality for you. Everything you thought about this war has turned out wrong. The fact that you think Iraq will explode without whitey there to save them is just

[Sporkmater]

Yet I do not see that in your writing.

Your hung up on trying to argue if the Invasion of Iraq was right or wrong. I am tying to point out that regardless of that view that there are things here that we should fix and improve because we started the war.

Also I would like to know how you know my every view on this conflict from only a few exchanges? Have I said anything about WMDs, Saddam or 9/11 at all in to concerns with Iraq? If so port them out, because have not said a thing about it.

[schifferbrainz]

We all know the invasion was wrong. Not once have I argued that case. NOT ONCE HAVE I ARGUED THAT POINT!

Look, I hope you're able to justify your crappy opinion so that you can sleep at night. Like I said earlier, that is what this conversation is all about. But you are fooling yourself, not me.

You are a phony. Reply if you want, but I've already wasted too much time on you. You should be a bit wiser by your age.

Good luck.

[Sporkmater]

No, being able to help people deal with real issues over here is worth the time and I will not apologize of any actions I have done here in Iraq. What I would like to know is why your getting upset that we are helping the population of Iraq deal with medical and other problems that they face?

I would like to know what wrongs I have done by doing this?

[schifferbrainz]

FROM BELOW:

...the latest stop on sporkmaters fantasy tour. Arrogant, racist, ignorant, sanctimonious and belittling are just a few of your better qualities. That's a bit much for one little sheep. Have a nice day.

Oh, did I mention that EVERYTHING YOU THOUGHT ABOUT THE INVASION HAS TURNED OUT WRONG?

[Sporkmater]

So I am racists for wanting to help people? No where did I say that they could not deal with things themselves. But because we started this conflict, I believe we have a obligation to make sure that Iraq is not hindered because of it.

Also I have yet to see a Iraqi that was not great full for any help, medical or otherwise that they received while I have been here. Also you do not live in Iraq so for better or worse you do not have to deal with the problems that we are trying to help.

[FluxRostrum]

If you are really "over there" then I'm sure you need to think these things to survive. good luck with that.

[Sporkmater]

I am under the name masterspork on myspace. I have several photos and videos of what I have seen so far. But from what I have seen and done I am convinced that we are doing a good thing right now and will help Iraq in the long run.

[FluxRostrum]

I'm wishing you luck Warren. Be strong. Do what you need to do.

[Sporkmater]

Thanks, I understand why people are against Iraq, but one of the reasons here is that I do not want to see this place become like Somalia. With no law and people having to deal with daily violence between warlords.

[FluxRostrum]

go a head and call me an idealist, but ... War lords spring up like governments when the people are too weak to think and organize their own communities. I'd like to spend my time helping the people remember self governance.  If the only reason to Not Do Bad Things is the Law... then your still a bad person. I hope your baby grows up to be a great person who doesn't need the law to tell'em what's right and wrong. I hope also that no Government will exist to tell'em wrong is right either.

[Sporkmater]

Yes and no, because while I can see that happing, the use of force and fear to prevent anyone from opposing them restricts people to form their own comminutes. The main problem comes when warlords fight against each other. It is the reason why we have police to stop gang violence when local communities cannot.

But we are not talking about bad laws but the absence of laws altogether. You have to have a system that make sure that law and order are upheld.

[Sporkmater]

Also the word limit really restricts what I can say about it and this subject really needs more then 500 characters to really do it justice.

[CherylSpeaksOut]

it's called Conscientious Objector and goes back to WW1 at least, google for some history of these brave people.

[Sporkmater]

Does not mean that COs have not served in combat. In fact one of the winners of the Medal of Honor was a active CO in the Pacific. His name was Desmond T. Doss.

[CherylSpeaksOut]

I never said they didn't, i said google it. many have served world wide and objected to serving as well and still do. many in prision for doing the right thing and NOT following their countries orders

[Sporkmater]

I understand the concept of Cos but in this case I do not see how simply going to a location is a illegal order. Unless you are being told to actively kill unarmed civilians that are without a doubt not presenting a threat that you will need more reason to refuse this deployment.

[PASMdude]

Hey you were in Killeen and didn't give me the chance to say hi? I am hurt.

[skinnychef]

hey allen! is that you? i didn't remember you were in killeen... it was my first time going there.

[PASMdude]

Yes it is me. I did not have a clue there were any activist in this redneck town. I will have to check out that cafe and meet up with these people.

[skinnychef]

yeah it's called Under the Hood Cafe, and it is a resource center for peace activists and veterans. it's at 175 college st... you should go!

[PASMdude]

I have a doctors appointment near there tomorrow and will stop in. Thanks.

[skinnychef]

did you go to under the hood?

[FarisV]

Thanks Skinny, for all your assistance in documenting the cause of liberty in the defense of FREEDOM.

[skinnychef]

hi Faris!

thanks for watching! keep up the good fight!

[FluxRostrum]

great job! thanks for being there.

[skinnychef]

sure pal-

i cannot get it up on MBN so far. i don't understand the new system.