More than a coincidence that the greatest mass murders of ALL TIME have been communists. Hitler was a socialist (national SOCIALIST workers party), Nazi. Theortically, communism can only be achieved by way of socialism; never seen communism, unless by that one means murdered multitudes.
People need to understand, mass exterminations are a fundamental principle of Marxism. Marx talks about geneocide (though the actual word didn't exist yet) brazenly in his writings. Actually the mass extermination of Russians was enthusiastically promoted by Marx. It is no irony that the Bolshevik gang which was put in power by the old German High Command in WWI did precisely what Marx said they should do. Mass extermination is a central Marxist principle.
@julianhayda: A wee bit of advise on how best to understand Marx. That absolute LAST thing you read to understand Marx is the Manifesto, & Hell no to the Kapital nonsense. Start w/ Judenfrage & then read anything else he or Engels wrote in their periocical articles about race, ethnic groups, peasants or especially Jews or Russians. Believe me, he wanted them all GONE.
Grain production was not the issue in this man-made genocide. Neither was drought or poor planning or collective farms. Archives show the farms had plenty of product, Stalin and his cohorts requisitioned ALL foodstuffs, as planned. Ukraine has never regained what was taken, hundreds of villages, with their inhabitants, disappeared altogether. Estimates are wide rangeing, somewhere between 5-12 million perished. This happens when a people wishes freedom from communist tyranny and 1 party rule.
@Fridaey13txhOktober Russian archives have a history of being purged with each new leader. They are not the same as archives in the West. Many kings of Russia have even been purged from Russian archives.
@Fridaey13txhOktober The Russian archives were never meant to be open to the public because they contain evidence of the most brutal crimes ever committed on Earth!
Nevermind that the hollowdomore numbers would implie half of the (moscovite, bolchevik-created) ukrainian socialist sovietic republic being simply empty, with hundreds if not thousands of masse graves the like of Katyn that Goebbel´s media machine would have used well 8 years later.
@Fridaey13txhOktober The Germans were already recruiting tens of thousands of Ukrainians to fight against the Communists, both in vlassov's Army and as Hiwis", or "helpers" to the German Wehrmacht- all because of Communist brutality.
Tens of thousands, would be big in estonia or Luxembourg...
It isn´t that I´m against everything National-Socialist but in this case, Goebbels and the gestapo where simply making things up to justifie the coming "liberation" of this region, which was to be incorporated into greater Germany.
@Fridaey13txhOktober So all the witnesses that you can find even here on YouTube were lying? They are exactly saying outrageous things like that they were being turned into soap and lampshades, you know! Even Andrei Chickatilo, the mass murderer, talked about the Holodomir.
The soaps and lampshades might be a reality thou, except not backward in time but forward, in a future brought about by Tel-Aviv´s own genocidal actions.
@Fridaey13txhOktober Witnesses from anywhere. As I say, even the serial killer Andrei Chickatilo talked about it- about his own brother having been killed and eaten during the Holodomir. And he was a committed Communist!
If I wanted pity or so broke I had to eat rats killed by poison to avoid starving, like countless pensioners in the post-sovietic "democracies", I would probably be a witness too.
Even in 1980s ethiopia and other african countries, you don´t see the blacks butchering their childrens en mass for meat, thought they have loads and loads of them.
@Fridaey13txhOktober There are TONS of photographs online about it as well, like one where two peasants are standing in front of a table upon which are the remains of two children- a ghastly image which sticks in my mind. But Andrei Chickatilo had nothing to gain from telling about how his brother was eaten, so I don't see how you can even make that argument. And Africans are well fed by the West, leading to a population explosion- they are not "starving" like the Ukrainians were!
@Fridaey13txhOktober Watch the video, "Harvest of Despair." And during 1921-2 the Ukrainians were starved then as well as grain was exported from there to feed the people in the Volga region. The man-made famine of 1932-3 is even well documented in the British archives and admit that up to 10 million people were deliberately starved but that it was best to not openly discuss it as they wanted normalized relations with Moscow.
@Fridaey13txhOktober I have never heard that one, but I think the traditional numbers accepted are 7 million in the Ukraine, and three milliion elsewhere at the same time- the Caucauses and the Crimea.
@TomDavid88 Yea, I've read about that bullshit. Some minister of former Ukrainian gvt wrote about 7mlns of victims, BUT among these 7 mlns he counted 5 mlns NOT BORN BABIES!!!! Which could be born, but weren't! And in the "Book of Holodomor" they could gather only less than 1(one) million of names, from which very many were proved false.
@Fridaey13txhOktober nope, honesty and sense shows there's no integrity in the comments of Friedegg13thOktober. guess you're betting folks will believe a bigger lie than a small one. rock on
@Fridaey13txhOktober 1987? Seriously!!! Obviously, you can't find anything of merit after the fall of the Soviet Union (or, should that be called 'the fall of Russian propaganda')!!!!
@Fridaey13txhOktober Oh, ya, the Ukrainians just happily gave up their farms without any resistance? Is that what your Communist mind is trying to tell us?!
I don´t follow the church of the hollowcaust either, the propaganda horseshit is just too freakin´ obvious.
Jews where gassed for your sins, my brothers and sisters. Buy this pretzel, for it is simon wiesenthal´s liver, buy this cocal cola, for it is His blood, spilled by the cruel whippes of the hideous nazi beasts. :-D
Google The Morgenthau Plan: Soviet influence on American post war policy By John Dietrich. The German people were also starved. Millions died. Morgenthau was Jewish
Funny thing, on the sole side three professional trolls hired by capitalists: irynski, MsOKZS and chickenwrench. May be the topic is very important for US.
I'm sad that you judge everyone by your actions & thus you would never understand how someone could post just because of their own convictions & the national memory they carry in their blood.
I do it for my parents who lived and survived this horror. I will never forget.
People like you do not have motherland no matter were they live. There is the name for like you: "mankurts" (The legend of the mankurt essentially described how to create ideal slaves by erasing their memories.)
@MsOKZS And there is a good name for those like you: Judas. For money you'd sell your mother in Turkish bordell. Your God is American dollar. You live and lie for him. As well as your parents who lived and murdered for Reichsmarks. You may hide in your beloved US but that's not forever and you'll meet your parents were they are now - in Hell for killing Poles, Russians and Jews for Hitler.
@tagaphon Your comment is my proof. When you have no argument you go to assaults and insults.
You may try to say you know God but your comment shows you don't now God nor you know what was Christ's message. Nevertheless I pray for your soul to be saved, as despite the fact how angry and evil your actions are you are still God's child and Christ came to save you as much as me.
@MsOKZS That's too late to pray for you. 30 silver coins were already taken. As far I know Christ never forgave Judas. So you'll meet your daddy so or so. One thing is sure: he'll never catch cold where he is.
@tagaphon Ненавидящих и обидящих нас прости Господи и даруй им царствие твое. Библию читайте, так как судя по вашему коментарию, вы ее совсем не знаете. А от имени Господа выступать и наказания присуждать вам не гоже, это богохульство, а богохульство это грех.
@MsOKZS Не могу ответить тем же. Я не желаю добра ни тебе, ни твоим братьям бандеровцам, позору украинского народа. Никто из вас не раскаялся, и каждый из таких, как ты, снова готов заливать кровью Украину. С таким же лицемерием и показной набожностью как у тебя. И живешь ты, только потому, что США спрятали выродков-твоих родителей от народного гнева. Всего тебе плохого.
Thank you. I know it way too well. Bothy my parents lived through it. Told the stories that makes you blood chill, like for example after NKVD repossessed everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) you can eat, they were standing in a circle around villages and killed everyone who tried to live to go find some food. You were prosecuted put to jail or Gulag if you take THREE spikes of grain. etc, etc, etc.
In his 1953 speech the "father of the [UN] Genocide Convention," Dr Raphael Lemkin described "the destruction of the Ukrainian nation" as the "classic example of genocide," for "...the Ukrainian is not and never has been a Russian... It is a case of genocide, of the destruction of a culture and a nation.."
at uccla website his document: SOVIET_GENOCIDE_IN_THE_UKRAINE.
In his 1953 speech the "father of the [UN] Genocide Convention," Dr Raphael Lemkin described "the destruction of the Ukrainian nation" as the "classic example of genocide," for "...the Ukrainian is not and never has been a Russian. His culture, his temperament, his language, his religion, are all different...to eliminate (Ukrainian) nationalism...the Ukrainian peasantry was sacrificed...a famine was necessary for the Soviet and so they got one to order..
7 Aug. 1932 law drafted by Joseph Stalin on the protection of the socialist property stipulated the death penalty for "theft of socialist property". Ukrainian villagers were executed by firing squads for theft of a sack of wheat and in some cases even for two sheaves of corn or a husk of grain.
6 Dec. 1932 decree stipulated a complete blockade of villages for allegedly sabotaging the grain procurement campaign - de facto sentencing their Ukrainian inhabitants to execution by starvation.
@Ms73501505 , "Russian fascism"? This was 100% Communism! Our main enemy for 45 yrs after WW2? The Communist party of the USSR were made up of 80% jews in the power positions. Politicians, police capos, judges, etc. all jewish. When the "purges" happened, it wasn't synagogues that got destroyed, but 1000yr old Orthodox Christian churches. It wasn' jews in he gulags. It was Christian RUssians. Groups like ADL, SPLC, WJO, etc. made sure we never learn of their genocides by censoring text books.
@mondocrat The synagogues were closed and Judaism repressed like any other religion. so learn your facts. Considering what the 'christians" did to the Jews in Russia and Ukraine for centuries, NO sympathy for churches turned into stables and swimming pools.
"The synagogues were closed and Judaism repressed. Considering what the 'christians" did to the Jews in Russia and Ukraine for centuries " -
You are so wrong. Judaism was living/growing in Ukraine for centuries. Hasidim took it's biggest development there. I n Ukraine are some of the biggest Jewish sacred places. It couldn't happen if Judaism was repressed there for centuries. What was done to Jews before 1917 " Pogroms" - were a result of Russian Imperial politics of 19c.
"The synagogues were closed and Judaism repressed like any other religion." - this is not true either. After 1917 October revolution all religions were repressed the same. And, if to be honest, many Soviet Bolsheviks who came to the power in 1917 were Jews. They didn't care for their own culture and religion. They were the one who were destroying synagogues along with churches. As well as other communists (of all nations). They were people without religion and culture.
also recommend a book by a Canadian Douglas Tottle 'Fraud, Famine and Fascism" just google "fraud,famine and fascism"
The author was probably a bit naive about USSR and too pro-socialist but the facts he uncovered about the proliferation of this lie are incredible...
Thanks to DrMundo's having used this video as a forum for espousing his personal theories & that which he considers to be 'facts', the integrity of julianhayda's post has been usurped by spurious derision. I suggest that - as he considers himself to be an irrefutable authority - he creates his own video of the History/Ethnology/Linguistics (ad nauseum) of the region to present his 'facts'. It would be fascinating to see how well his grab-bag stands up under scrutiny.
Kinda weird that all the pictures of the "ukrainian famine" are the same as pictures of the famines caused by international intervention in 1919 and continuation of the red-white war into the former Russian Empire.
Weird or because the hollowdomore is nothing but a myth, created by the gestapo and spread by william hearst?
@Fridaey13txhOktober The Famine of 1932-33 in the Ukraine is a fact as well as in other regions of the Soviet Union at the time - regardless of ethnicity.
ETHNIC genocide is a monstrous lie.
Especially cynical are pictures of starving Russian children and dead bodies in Volga region they use in this anti-Russian propaganda.
@DrMundo74@Fridaey13txhOktober Good to see that you have found each other to play with. Why don't you both go to one of the many Holodomor hoax videos and you can play there together with the rest of your Russophile, Imperialist friends. Better yet, use your time to actually do something useful with your lives.
@DrMundo74 How can I take you seriously? You were probably writing to yourself! You are Fridaey13txhOctober, LeninKGB, craxial666, etc. You a troll working for the Russification of the world, you bastard. (Thank you DrMundo74 for giving me an insight into how you function. I'll be calling this DrMundoism in future: how debate when you're incapable of debate; accuse everyone who disagrees with your perceptions as being one person and call them bitches, bastards and trolls.) You are pathetic.
Why can't you find a more pacific hobby (how about promoting ukrainian soup "borsch") instead of fighting "Russification of the World" (as you put it lol) from your other YouTube accounts: Riaflower, slavicstudies, ukrainianmusicvideo, etc or making racist remarks from Karen41872 pretending to be a 24 year old "filmmaker" from Beverly Hills?
@DrMundo74 No, but I can't call you a bitch - which is what you called me. It's a great reflection on your character that you stoop to calling me a troll, accuse me of using a variety of accounts, etc. What foolishness you resort to. You're one of those people who would happily resort to violence in order to 'teach' someone else that you're right and they're wrong.
@irynski You live in Australia, I think, I in US now, though I was born in Kyiv. DrMundo74 accused me the same. How they as he are afraid that there are many of us.
@MsOKZS Haha! There are too many of us to make the lies they've been taught comfortable. It is always easier to understand conspiracy theories when the truth is too difficult to live with. To people like DrMundo74, the idea that there are so many of us whose families, and friends of our families, died is inconceivable. I could almost feel sorry for him if he weren't such a parasite. He wants to believe the world is black & white. My family is from the Poltava region. Vs'oho naikrashchoho!
@Fridaey13txhOktober LOL! You're like a dog with a bone... I have far more respect for the likes of DrMundo. At least he has some semblance of intellect.
Speaking of semblance, I suspect that you were assembled with your arse for a brain. Sadly, your brain was lost in your nappies when you were a baby (probably about 10, maybe 15, years ago).
Let it go. You're stuck in your tragic world of black & white propaganda. Don't bother me again. You're just plainly stupid & boring.
Come on, if you gonna hate the 3rd Reich so much, you gottta at least know what Goebbels and his coworkers actually said and that William Hearst had travelled to Germany and even met Hitler himself before printing his hollowdomore stories, amrit?
"You're stuck in your tragic world of black & white propaganda."
Hilarious, you are the one swallowing propaganda without thinking even once.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn, Nobel Prize winner who spent 8 years in Gulag labor camps in Siberia and 3 years in exile and who is hardly a "Communist regime sympathizer" wrote about the Holodomor campaign in 2008:
"This provocateurs outcry about "genocide" began to emerge decades later - first secretly, in the musty chauvinistic minds, viciously opposed to "Muscovites" - and now ascended to government circles of today's Ukraine, to surpass even the dashing swirls of Bolshevik propaganda "
@Fridaey13txhOktober He was accused for his criticism of Stalin. Not the point. Point is the most famous dissident ever, a Nobel prize winner called Holodomor myth of genocide a lie. His mother was Ukrainian by the way and lived through the Famine of 1932-33...
@DrMundo74 (wiki/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn) "Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn was born in Kislovodsk, RSFSR (now in Stavropol Krai, Russia) in 1918. His mother, Taisiya Solzhenitsyna (née Shcherbak) was Ukrainian. During World War I, Taisiya went to Moscow to study. While there she met and married Aleksandr's father. Solzhenitsyn was brought up in Rostov on the Don. My mother & babtsia were also Ukrainian & lived through Holodomor... & they were IN Ukraine. Not everyone died. His opinion is purely opinion.
DON'T play at semantics with me! You know dribs & drabs & are certainly no ethnographer. Ukrainians might just as well have been called Mohairs by your definitions. Moscovia was renamed Russia (1547) in order to lay claims to the earlier Empire of Rus'. Khmel'nytskiy try to form an alliance with your 'Russia' believing that, as fellow Greco-Orthodox, an alliance against non-Orthodox ethnic groups plundering 'Mohairia' was necessary for survival. He was wrong. Muscovites were treacherous liars.
@irynski I'm not a "Muscovite". "Early Empire of Rus" are historic Russian Lands - Ruska Zemlya. Kiev was the second capital of Rus after Novgorod. After the fall of Kiev to Mongols and it's annihilation the lands around Kiev were absorbed by Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and given the name "Ukrajna" (land on the edge of the Kingdom) as well as other "ukrainas" - Podol, Wolyn, etc. What "dribs and drabs" you talking about?
There were no "Ukrainians" until 19th century. It's just a fact.
@irynski Moscow was founded by Yuri Dolgorukiy who was Grand Prince of Kiev in 1147 and became the major city of Rus after the fall of Kiev to mongols in 1240 and it's annexation by Polish-Lithuanian Kingdom. Even before that another Russian city of Vladimir-Suzdal was already the major power of Rus. "Moscovia" is how the Grand Duchy of Moscow was called by Poland that occupied Russian lands. There was no Ukrainian State or "Nation" in sight back then. What's this nonsense about "mohair" about?
@DrMundo74 The 'nonesense' you're referring to is to point out that, disregarding when the term 'Ukraine' came in, a distinct ethnic group lived on those lands. What they are called throughout history is irrelevant & does not negate their existence: people with their own culture & their own language. It is the victors who write history. The fact that we were sandwiched between Poland & Russia who needed us (The Breadbasket of Europe) was our great tragedy. We existed & continue to exist!
@irynski "Breadbasket of Europe" ))) Except for the cities from the Early Russian times much of the territory was a Wild Field (steppe) before it became part of Russian Empire
@DrMundo74 I ve happened to witness your heated debate with Irynski and iam pleased with the way you put ukraine obsessed rusophobes in their place,do you speak russian?
@DrMundo74 а чего же канал закрыл?:)Большим фанатом лично Ульянова я тоже не являюсь,просто выбрал этот ник как способ выражения патриотических и про-советских взглядов:)
Да,и согласен что госпожа Ирински хоть и не лишена задора,фактами почему то оперирует не часто.
DrMundo has informed his equally ill-informed Russophile friend, LeninKGB, that I'm, "... just a bitch writing under her many aliases: Karen41872; Riaflower; irynski; slavicstudies, ukrainianmusicvideo...etc,etc"! I'm coining a new 'ism'. DrMundoism is a state of being able to debate beyond taking snippets of information out of context to create a tunnel-visioned argument. Pryvit to all of me's I don't know!!!
DrMundo has informed his equally ill-informed Russophile friend, LeninKGB, that I'm, "... just a bitch writing under her many aliases: Karen41872; Riaflower; irynski; slavicstudies, ukrainianmusicvideo...etc,etc"! I'm coining a new 'ism'. DrMundoism is a state of being able to debate beyond taking snippets of information out of context to create a tunnel-visioned argument. Pryvit to all of me's I don't know!!!
@DrMundo74 As noted to LenininKGB, I am not going to reference Ukrainian or non-Russian sources as I know I will be pounced upon as espousing Ukrainian fascist, anti-Semitic, anti-everything propaganda. I can't reference independent Western research as I am, then, pounced on for espousing corrupt US sponsored lies based on their agenda. Who, then, can I reference when trying to hold a reasonable discussion? That's why I'm cursing myself for being stupid enough to enter into a dialogue here.
@DrMundo74 Not too many accounts on my behalf... Too many postings by you. Each time I receive a barrage of comments from you I can't even find them for the other comments you've posted to no one. This is not a serious forum. Snippets of information don't form a basis on which to have an intelligent, academic discussion. Again, I curse myself for even attempting to hold a discussion with you on any level.
@DrMundo74 Where on earth did you learn history? I'm absolutely serious regarding this question! There isn't a University it the world (outside of Russia) that your interpretation of history seriously. There isn't a linguist in the world (outside of some small lunatic fringe that no one takes seriously) who doesn't recognise Ukrainian as a separate language, certainly NOT a dialect of Russian or Polish. Get your academic facts straight before you deign to try to rewrite the human sciences!
"It is accepted that before the 18th century the precursor to the modern literary Ukrainian language was a vernacular language used mostly by peasants... as no traces of earlier literary works could be found"
West Ukraine was part of Poland for centuries - hence 4,000+ Polish words in "mova".
Other than that Ukrainian language is not much different from common Russian. Dutch is more different from Afrikaans.
@DrMundo74 I already did and cited the reference to a translator being needed at Pereiaslov! It is evident to all that I am trying to discuss something with a dear, one-eyed man. Your quote is taken out of context, plus you have appended the ".. part of Poland.. hence 4,00+ Polish words.." from your own mind or somewhere else. Read the article properly. Various theories are attributed, particularly by Russian scientists, which have been refuted. Peasant language? Written language was banned!!!
@irynski Oh please please! Where can I read about "The Translator"? What was his name? Did he translate from the "forbidden language"? Is it documented in the "forbidden language"?
Btw It's PereiaslAv or Pereiaslav-Poltavskyi, now - Pereyaslav Khmelnitskyi (Also known as Pereyaslav-Russki - as it is mentioned for the first time in the text of the Rus' treaty with the Byzantine Empire (911) - terrible isn't it?)
@DrMundo74 Again, The Translator is referenced in the article YOU pointed me to in Wikipedia. Ukrainian_language > Developments under Poland and Lithuania > By the mid-17th century, the linguistic divergence between the Ukrainian and Russian languages was so acute that there was a need for translators during negotiations for the Treaty of Pereyaslav, between Bohdan Khmelnytsky, head of the Zaporozhian Host, and the Russian state. LOOK AT IT. You cited the page! Read ALL of it, blind man!
@irynski You already wrote that. I just hope someone will correct this BS. Khmelnitsky was a well-educated person and could speak Polish, Latin and even Turkish and Tatar. Russian? Of course! Khmelnitskyi letters in Russian are preserved.
"Кому мила вера благочистивая, от поляков на унию претворяемая, кому за вас любима целостность отчизны нашей , украины Малороссийской..."(Белоцерковский универсал, 1648 год)
He couldn't write in Ukrainian that appeared 200 years later...
Cossacks wrote to Kmelnitskyi on Jan 3 1654: "А замысел вашь добь удаться и буде а всемъ народамъ малороссийскимъ по обеимъ сторонамь Днепра будучимъ, под протекцию Великодержавнейшаго и Пресветлейшаго монарха Российского, заслушны быть признаемъ и даемо нашу войсковую вамь параду, а быстё того дела не оставляли и оное кончили, яку наилучший пользе отчизне Малороссийской. "
Then again, event though Khmelnitskyi was in service to Polish Crown before the Uprising and all upper classes spoke mostly pure Polish ("hetman" was a Polish title) why would he converse with Russian Tzar Alexei whom he plead for Protectorate and unification of Little Rosia with Great Rosia for several years (The Tzar did not want to start a new war with the Poles) in anything other then Russian which he knew quite well???
@Karen41872 Polish "hetman", Czech "hejtman", German "hauptmann" (headman).
Cossack (Cherkes) "ataman" is rather from Turkish ata-man (ata="grandfather", man="me") or Tatar (ata=father, taman=host,army) Originally Cossacks are of mixed ethnic origins:Kasog, Cherkes, Sarmatian, Tatar,Turkic,etc -The Wild Field, that mixed with the remaining Slavic Russian people after the Golden Horde and became Christian. Polish title of Hetman was founded in1505. In the Registered Cossack Army - end of the16c.
@DrMundo74 Incidentally, while I, personally, have not flagged your pseudo-scientific diatribes and 'facts' as spam, it appears that plenty of people have. You are a dangerously ignorant, obviously self-taught Russophile who would never be able to hold his own in a true debate. As I pointed out earlier, you even hide behind a hidden profile because you are such a sad coward. I won't indulge you any longer as I have better things to do with my time. Apparently, you have not.
@DrMundo74 PS No more wasting time on you. I just wanted to clarify that 'dear, one-eyed man' was a typo. Please read as being a 'deaf, one-eyed man'. You reference articles on the web (try doing some reading outside of the web!) without knowing who wrote them and aren't even aware of the names and agenda of those who are attributed to known 'historian/chroniclers' (using these terms loosely). You pick single paragraphs out of entire articles and take them out of context. Finita la musica!
@DrMundo74 Wikipedia is hardly a serious source. Little in the way of original documentation can be sourced via the web. Academic papers/texts of any depth cannot be sourced from the web. It's a grab-bag of tiny chunks of subjective opinion and misinformation. Try to do some original research from a library or read some acknowledged academic research only available at the moment in printed form!
@DrMundo74 Since you are so fond of citing Wikipedia, take a look at the Russian entries for Украинский язык and Русский язык. Tell me where either claim that Ukrainian is not a language but a dialect, therefore there is no such ethnic group as Ukrainians. Read the articles CAREFULLY. I know you are predisposed to tunnel vision and focus only on phrases and clauses that suit your purposes.
@irynski I don't really have any "purposes". I just commented that this "ethnic genocide" propaganda is a sickening bunch of lies and you started this etnographic discussion..
Russian and Ukrainian are no more different than Dutch and Afrikaans if you take all Polish words out of Ukrainian (which you will never find in any document of Ancient Rus). After Mongol pogrom and annexation of West Russian lands by Lithuania-Poland Western Russian underwent Polonization. Of course they spoke different from Greater Russia. That is how Ukrainian “mova” emerged.
Written Ukrainian appeared only in the19 c. The codification of Ukrainian wasn't complete even by Bolsheviks in 1927
@DrMundo74 The very word "Ukraine", however, is much older than Russia itself. It was first used in the 12th century chronicles when the powerful Kyivan Rus' state stretched over the territories of modern Ukraine, Moldova, Russia, Belorus and the Baltics. The name was apparently in use earlier. It's roots can be found in the modern Ukrainian language, which still retains the word "ukraity" meaning "to mark out": it is the antithesis of what you postulate. 'U' designates WITHIN the 'edges'.
@irynski Ancient Rus indeed stretched from Scandinavia to the Black Sea. It was Russian state not "Ukrainian".
The "Tale of bygone years" also known as Russian Primary Chronicle" begins with: "Повѣсть временныхъ лѣт черноризца Федосьєва манастыря Печерьскаго. Откуду єсть пошла Руская земля"
(Selections from the Russian Primary Chronicle translated by Samuel H. Cross and published in Harvard Studies and Notes in Philology and Literature, Volume 12, 1930)
"Kievan Rus" is the term introduced by Russian historian Karamzin only in the 19 c to describe the period of RUSSIAN state in 10-12 centuries when of all Russian cities Kiev was the major political center of Rus, until it was destroyed by Mongols in 1240 and later absorbed by Polish-Lithuanian Kingdom.
However, Rus begins from NOVGOROD. It is from Novgorod Prince Oleg of Rus came to Kiev, made it his new capital and called it "The Mother of Russian Cities" (not Ukrainian).
If you don't like Wikipedia - try Encyclopaedia Britannica: NOVGOROD
Primary Chronicle:
"The oldest, Rurik, located himself in Novgorod; the second, Sineus, in Beloozero; and the third, Truvor, in Izborsk. On account of these Varangians, the district of Novgorod became known as Russian land."
The fact that now Kiev is the capital of the country called Ukraine existing since 1991 does not change RUSSIAN history, just like Istanbul being now in Turkey does not change that Constantinople was the capital of Christian Byzantine Empire. Already before the fall of Kiev to mongols in 1240 political center of Rus moved to Vladimir-Suzdal (Look in Wikipedia : Vladimir-Suzdal) and then Moscow.
Kiev was never called "Oukraina" in the chronicles. The old Russian word "Oukraina" in the Primary Chronicle is only mentioned 2 times and refers ONLY to Pereyaslav BORDERLAND and in another instance to Galich Borderland - look at the map of Rus in the 12 c - they were the Borderlands.
In later chronicles and documents there are dozens of "ukraina"s (Russian for "borderlands,periphery, outskirts" ) all over Rus and Russia - even in Siberia and Far North Murmansk Region (Ukraina Tersky).
There are many instances of "ukraina" used in plural in the ancient Russian documents: e.g., "Но и ноне по украйнамъ молятся ему проклятому болвану Перуну" "And still on the outskirtS they worship the damn Perun" - after the Baptism of Rus there were still worshipers of Pagan gods on the outskirts.
Polish King Stefan Batory referred in 1580 "universal" to Russian Ukrajna, Kiev Ukrajna, Volyn Ukrajna, Podolye Ukrajna, Bracław Ukrajna - many different "ukrajna"s - borderlands of Polish-Lithuanian Kingdom.
There has never been a Ukrainian State until 1991 when Yeltsin and 2 other communists from Ukraine and Belarus divided USSR built on the territories of Russian Empire - certainly NO Ancient Ukrainian State ruled by Russian Rurik Dynasty Princes. There was Oukraina (and not just one) as a BORDERLAND of Rus, and then Ukrajna as provinces of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
Look at the map of Poland with the borders of 1648. In Wikipedia: "Polen in den Grenzen vor 1660" with the words Ukraine (hard to find) and also separately Kozaken somewhere under LITTAUEN and KLEINE POLEN (in big letters).
The first topographic fixation of "Ukraine" was published in 1650 in Rouen Book "Description d'Ukraine", written by a military engineer and cartographer Guillaume Levasseur de Boplan, who was invited by King Sigismund III in the 30's and 40's of the XVII century and served as an officer in the Polish army, and on behalf of King Wladyslaw IV and the Crown Hetman Konetspolski made a detailed map of the border lands of the Rcecz Pospolita Commonwealth (Poland)
There simply was no such word "Ukrainians" until second half of 19th century...Otherwise give me an example.Through centuries Ukraine had only geographical meaning of the border territories of Russia and Poland.
The territory that departed from the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth to Russia after signing the peace treaty in 1667 - militant cossack semi-autonomy under the name "Hetmanate" was a small fraction of todays Ukraine territory which became what it is under Soviet Union as UkrSSR. The remainder lands even after the 1667 treaty continued to be parts of Poland or Turkey or were Russian historic lands long before this event. The Poles lost Kiev to Russia (originally Russian land until 14c).
As for the Chernigov, Russia just took back from the Poles what Poland had taked from Russia several decades before, in the course of the famous "Troubles". Chernigov region back in 1503, was part of the Russian state. The very old Russian city of Chernigov was built by Tsar Ivan the 3. And only in the early 17c during the Moscow campaign undertaken by the Poles in 1612 became part of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
The quasi "Ukrainian" state of Hetmanate, which lasted until 18 th c did not arise BEFORE accession to Russia, but AFTER. It is when becoming part of Russia Cossacks (ie essentially the Black Sea steppes pirates of all kinds) actually received the status of the All-Russian elite, which they could not possibly get from Poland, who with fire and sword tried to restore order in this region.
Cossacks never called themselves Ukrainians. When Bogdan Khmelnitsky Cossacks plead Russian Tzar Alexei for Protectorate and for the unification of Little and Great Rus in 1654 they conversed in a Common Russian Language:
"царь и великий князь Алексей Михайлович, всеа Русии самодержец восточной, которого мы уже шесть лет безпрестанными молении нашими себе просим...."
"King and Grand Prince Alexei Mikhailovich, The Sole Ruler of All Rusia, whom we already six years of constant prayers to us are requesting."
"The christian orthodox great sovereign king of the east is from the piety of our common Greek law, of our one confession, one body are Orthodox Church of the Great Rosii, under Jesus Christ.
"This great emperor, King Cristian, had mercy on our unbearable bitterness over the Orthodox Church in our Little Rosia, six years of our prayers prayers not despise,
now graciously his royal heart to us bowed, his great fellow men to us with his royal highness was pleased to send, if with zeal the royal high hand will not love - will not find the peaceful haven. And who would disagree with us now, where ever he wants - let go."
Brotherhoods (Kiev, Ostrogh, Lvov, Vilna), the Hetmans from Sagaidachny to EVEN TRAITOR Mazeppa and especially Vygovsky, Kotliarevsky, Tschevchenko, Franko, Hrushevsky - all historically affirm Rusin or little Russian or simply Russian ethnic identity, but NEVER ONCE even have a conception of a "ukrainian nationality," partially because one didn't exist and most importantly because they were nominally faithful to Rus.
Zaporozhian Cossacks never called themselves "Ukrainians". The first to call themselves "Ukrainians" were Polish aristocrats in Kiev (they spoke Polish too). They also were the first to start developing the concept of Ukrainian ethnic identity separate from All-Russian culture and history. Poland had many wars with Russia through history. Hence the Polish word "Moskal" (Muscovite) instead of Russian and calling Russia "Muscowy". Then this concept of Ukrainian Nationality was fostered by Austrian
Empire. Already in 1848 the governor of Galicia, Count Stadion proposed that calling Rusyn population of Galicia "Russian" was dangerous for national unity of the Austrian Empire, after which the authorities officially started calling them "ruthenians» (Ruthenen). He addressed the Rusyn deputies:
"You can count on the support of government if you want to be an independent nation and reject national unity with the people in Russia, i.e., if you want to be ruthenium, not Russian.
November 25, 1890 in the Galicia Sejm ( Polish Lower House) deputies Yulian Romanchuk and Andrej Vahnyanin (both - teachers of Russian schools, ie government employees) made a statement that "population of Galicia has nothing to do with either Russia or the Russian people but wholy remains faithful to the Imperial house of Habsburg and the Catholic Church." From that on the Russian deputies in the Seim became "Ukrainians".
The following split among Galician Rusyns resulted in extermination of Rusophile population (including in the first concentration camps in Europe and the World 1914-1917 - TALERHOF and TEREZIN - look up in Wikipedia). Only a book or a postcard in Cyrillic were grounds for arrest. Austrian Government paid 300 crowns for each "Russian Spy" turned in. Thousands of people were exterminated in the concentration camps. That was indeed a genocide!
Already in late 1880s Galicia became the center of Ukrainian propaganda. With the support of the Polish and Austrian administration Ukrainian organizations were founded- the People's Rada, "Shevchenko Society" of M. Grushevsky " Pravda " A. Barvinskiy etc.With the support of the Austrian Government the networks "Prosvita' and the paramilitary "Sich" and "Falcon" were extended all over Galicia, which in the WWI were used in the fight against Russia.
If Stalin and Bolsheviks wanted to eradicate "Ukrainian nation" why were tons of food from the State Reserve sent to Ukraine in 1934? (That is when hunger was still all over the country)?
Or why did Stalin give Ukraine parts of Poland and Romania and a permanent seat in the UN after the war?
Or why chairman Khruschev gave Russian Crimea to Ukraine in 1954? Or why ukrainian Brezhnev ruled USSR for 18 years?
Lastly, "Communist Russian Regime" (where Ukrainians were among the ruling elite) does not exist already 20 years! Are you some kind of "Cold War Veteran"?
@DrMundo74 As for so called *White Rus*-it is but another region of Russia that drifted away from the rest of the land due to a lasting foreign yoke during the medieval era,also the word *white* in it has nothing to do with appearance or eye colour,it marks a geographic location(like Black Rus,Red Rus etc) It is amazing how they intentionaly misinterpret history and base their assessments on deliberate distortion of facts..isnt it?:))
@LeninKGB As far as the culture of the people "the parts" have never been too far apart. No matter what twisted games the politicians and big business play. Wish there was less politics on YouTube. Enough turbulence in this world. Perhaps it's better not to answer these trolls even though sometimes it's hard to just pass by some hysterical BS. Eventually they'll become a nuisance and will die out. Peace))
@DrMundo74 NOW you use the term Rus!!! Was Rus' not our common heritage from whence we diverged into different ethnic groups with our own languages and cultures? Why are you so adamant to claim it all as "Russian" history. You can't quite seem to make your mind up, can you...
Rus is not a “term”. It is the name of the Ancient Russian State. "Руская земля" .
"Ruskaya Zemlya" = Russian Land. Paste ' Руская земля' in Google Translate if you don't trust me. Also look up the etymology of "Rus" and "Russia" in Wikipedia. I am sorry it was not called "Ukr" or "Ukrainska Zemlya"...
I understand your frustration but the rulers of Rus - Russian Princes and Tzars of Rurik Dynasty were Russian not “Ukrainians”. Oleg the Prophet came to rule Kiev in 882 AD and declared it to be "The mother of Russian Cities".
In the Primary Chronicle:
Въ лѣто 6390 … [и] сѣде Ѡлегъ кнѧжа въ Києвѣ . и реч Ѡлегъ се буди мт҃и градомъ рускими
"And sat Oleg to rule in Kiev, and said Oleg let it be the mother of russian cities"
@DrMundo74 You claim you have no agenda! Your agenda is clear: you want to prove that an entire people did not exist. Ukrainians are some sort of quasi-Nation? You've stated the case at hand, being that of accession on behalf of your "Russian" state and that of the "Polish" state. Accession, in itself, tells you that oppressive methods/occupation by 'fire and sword' on behalf of BOTH Russians and Poles was used. Status? As what? Subjugated subjects of the Russian Empire.
@DrMundo74 One map from an Austro-Polish source? Are you kidding? There are thousands of maps from many, many sources. Take a look at the map wiki/Little_Russia and read the article!
@irynski LOL Looked at the map...finally found the word "Ukrain" (!!!) - right from Lemberg (pol.Lwow), under Volhinia (Volhynia) and Czernihow (Chernigov), above Braklaw (pol.Bracław) clearly Borderlands of Poland and Russia, WITHIN the borders of Poland and Russia of 1747 and not a state...
@DrMundo74 Haha! As noted, there are thousands of maps around. TO QUOTE YOU regarding sourcing more: "There are plenty of "sources" - Google, Wikipedia, Historical documents, Ancient Russian Chronicles...I don't know...Common sense also helps a lot..." You refuse to see that there is any material outside of the point you want to prove. That indicates nothing in the way of common sense, just tunnel vision.
@DrMundo74 Yes, of course. Everyone packed their bags, got on a plane and moved to Vladimir-Suzdal. They thought about it for a little bit and decided they'd like to live in Moscow instead. Simple explanations for simple minds.
@irynski I don't know what "source" you talking about...There are plenty of "sources" - Google, Wikipedia, Historical documents, Ancient Russian Chronicles...I don't know...Common sense also helps a lot...
@DrMundo74 Oh, you mean translation of works written by Serge A. Zenkovsky in the 1930's! The same Serge Zenkovsky whose aristocratic family (only some of whom were actually Ukrainian but changed their names from Ukrainian 'ko' endings to Russian 'ov' endings) had lived in Kyiv for generations but spoke ONLY Russian. This Russian wannabe moved to the US and was an editor of 'The Russian Review' from 1959. Yes, I can see how I should take his historical interpretations seriously.
@DrMundo74 The name, in itself, is duplicitous in its translation into English. Primary Russian Chronicle when Russia, even by your standards, did not exist? It is The Primary Chronicle of Rus' if it is to be translated properly on the most fundamental level.
"The tale of bygone years by the blackrobe monk of the Pechersk Monastery of Fedosiy. From whence comes the Russian land"
Feodosiy is Theodosius of the Caves (c. 1008 - May 3, 1074) - hegumen of the Russian Orthodox Church revered as a Saint, one of the founders of Kiev-Pechersk Lavra.
More than a coincidence that the greatest mass murders of ALL TIME have been communists. Hitler was a socialist (national SOCIALIST workers party), Nazi. Theortically, communism can only be achieved by way of socialism; never seen communism, unless by that one means murdered multitudes.
chickenwretch 1 month ago
People need to understand, mass exterminations are a fundamental principle of Marxism. Marx talks about geneocide (though the actual word didn't exist yet) brazenly in his writings. Actually the mass extermination of Russians was enthusiastically promoted by Marx. It is no irony that the Bolshevik gang which was put in power by the old German High Command in WWI did precisely what Marx said they should do. Mass extermination is a central Marxist principle.
VictorLepanto 1 month ago 3
@VictorLepanto
Please cite the communist manifesto. I have read it twice, and I didn't read anything that had to do with genocidal principles.
julianhayda 1 month ago
@julianhayda: A wee bit of advise on how best to understand Marx. That absolute LAST thing you read to understand Marx is the Manifesto, & Hell no to the Kapital nonsense. Start w/ Judenfrage & then read anything else he or Engels wrote in their periocical articles about race, ethnic groups, peasants or especially Jews or Russians. Believe me, he wanted them all GONE.
VictorLepanto 1 month ago
Grain production was not the issue in this man-made genocide. Neither was drought or poor planning or collective farms. Archives show the farms had plenty of product, Stalin and his cohorts requisitioned ALL foodstuffs, as planned. Ukraine has never regained what was taken, hundreds of villages, with their inhabitants, disappeared altogether. Estimates are wide rangeing, somewhere between 5-12 million perished. This happens when a people wishes freedom from communist tyranny and 1 party rule.
chickenwretch 1 month ago
Nope, archives shows there was no hollowdomore.
Fridaey13txhOktober 1 month ago
@Fridaey13txhOktober Russian archives have a history of being purged with each new leader. They are not the same as archives in the West. Many kings of Russia have even been purged from Russian archives.
Tom David
Minneapolis
TomDavid88 1 month ago
Best proof that Russian archives does not substantiate Stalin´s 60 millions victi... no waite, it was 110 millions victims! Or is it 82 millions?
"But archives can be used to proove anything" "Archives where closed by teh evil KGB-spawn Putin, who want to kill all estonians."
The thing is, those archives where never meant to become open to the public.
Fridaey13txhOktober 1 month ago
@Fridaey13txhOktober The Russian archives were never meant to be open to the public because they contain evidence of the most brutal crimes ever committed on Earth!
Tom David
Minneapolis
TomDavid88 1 month ago
Right, Stalin ate estonian babies for breakfast.
Nevermind that the hollowdomore numbers would implie half of the (moscovite, bolchevik-created) ukrainian socialist sovietic republic being simply empty, with hundreds if not thousands of masse graves the like of Katyn that Goebbel´s media machine would have used well 8 years later.
Fridaey13txhOktober 1 month ago
@Fridaey13txhOktober The Germans were already recruiting tens of thousands of Ukrainians to fight against the Communists, both in vlassov's Army and as Hiwis", or "helpers" to the German Wehrmacht- all because of Communist brutality.
Tom David
Minneapolis
TomDavid88 1 month ago
Tens of thousands, would be big in estonia or Luxembourg...
It isn´t that I´m against everything National-Socialist but in this case, Goebbels and the gestapo where simply making things up to justifie the coming "liberation" of this region, which was to be incorporated into greater Germany.
Fridaey13txhOktober 4 weeks ago
@Fridaey13txhOktober So all the witnesses that you can find even here on YouTube were lying? They are exactly saying outrageous things like that they were being turned into soap and lampshades, you know! Even Andrei Chickatilo, the mass murderer, talked about the Holodomir.
Tom David
Minneapolis
TomDavid88 4 weeks ago
Witnesses over teh intrenets? Seriously dude? :-D
The soaps and lampshades might be a reality thou, except not backward in time but forward, in a future brought about by Tel-Aviv´s own genocidal actions.
Pravda?
Fridaey13txhOktober 3 weeks ago
@Fridaey13txhOktober Witnesses from anywhere. As I say, even the serial killer Andrei Chickatilo talked about it- about his own brother having been killed and eaten during the Holodomir. And he was a committed Communist!
Tom David
Minneapolis
TomDavid88 3 weeks ago
If I wanted pity or so broke I had to eat rats killed by poison to avoid starving, like countless pensioners in the post-sovietic "democracies", I would probably be a witness too.
Even in 1980s ethiopia and other african countries, you don´t see the blacks butchering their childrens en mass for meat, thought they have loads and loads of them.
Fridaey13txhOktober 3 weeks ago
@Fridaey13txhOktober There are TONS of photographs online about it as well, like one where two peasants are standing in front of a table upon which are the remains of two children- a ghastly image which sticks in my mind. But Andrei Chickatilo had nothing to gain from telling about how his brother was eaten, so I don't see how you can even make that argument. And Africans are well fed by the West, leading to a population explosion- they are not "starving" like the Ukrainians were!
Tom David
TomDavid88 3 weeks ago
Those photos are of things that was a decade earlier, Volga famine and in general, the war in the former Russian Empire between Reds and Whites.
Fridaey13txhOktober 3 weeks ago
@Fridaey13txhOktober Watch the video, "Harvest of Despair." And during 1921-2 the Ukrainians were starved then as well as grain was exported from there to feed the people in the Volga region. The man-made famine of 1932-3 is even well documented in the British archives and admit that up to 10 million people were deliberately starved but that it was best to not openly discuss it as they wanted normalized relations with Moscow.
Tom David
Minneapolis
TomDavid88 3 weeks ago
Wasn´t it that Stalin allegely admitted to Churchill that 10 millions.? Version always changes.
It would leave circa half the ukrainian SSR empty.
Fridaey13txhOktober 2 weeks ago
@Fridaey13txhOktober I have never heard that one, but I think the traditional numbers accepted are 7 million in the Ukraine, and three milliion elsewhere at the same time- the Caucauses and the Crimea.
Tom David
Minneapolis
TomDavid88 2 weeks ago
@TomDavid88 Yea, I've read about that bullshit. Some minister of former Ukrainian gvt wrote about 7mlns of victims, BUT among these 7 mlns he counted 5 mlns NOT BORN BABIES!!!! Which could be born, but weren't! And in the "Book of Holodomor" they could gather only less than 1(one) million of names, from which very many were proved false.
tagaphon 2 weeks ago
@Fridaey13txhOktober nope, honesty and sense shows there's no integrity in the comments of Friedegg13thOktober. guess you're betting folks will believe a bigger lie than a small one. rock on
chickenwretch 1 month ago
watch?v=miHw4egKbZA
DrMundo74 2 months ago
Fraud, Famine and Fascism
The Ukrainian Genocide Myth from Hitler to Harvard
by Douglas Tottle
Published 1987 in Canada
rationalrevolution.n et/special/library/famine.h tm
Fridaey13txhOktober 2 months ago
@Fridaey13txhOktober 1987? Seriously!!! Obviously, you can't find anything of merit after the fall of the Soviet Union (or, should that be called 'the fall of Russian propaganda')!!!!
irynski 2 months ago
@Fridaey13txhOktober Oh, ya, the Ukrainians just happily gave up their farms without any resistance? Is that what your Communist mind is trying to tell us?!
Tom David
Minneapolis
TomDavid88 1 month ago
Comment removed
Fridaey13txhOktober 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Don´t you listen to your own propaganda? Haha!
I don´t follow the church of the hollowcaust either, the propaganda horseshit is just too freakin´ obvious.
Jews where gassed for your sins, my brothers and sisters. Buy this pretzel, for it is simon wiesenthal´s liver, buy this cocal cola, for it is His blood, spilled by the cruel whippes of the hideous nazi beasts. :-D
Fridaey13txhOktober 1 month ago
Google The Morgenthau Plan: Soviet influence on American post war policy By John Dietrich. The German people were also starved. Millions died. Morgenthau was Jewish
Shadowbear1955 4 months ago
Funny thing, on the sole side three professional trolls hired by capitalists: irynski, MsOKZS and chickenwrench. May be the topic is very important for US.
tagaphon 4 months ago
@tagaphon
I'm sad that you judge everyone by your actions & thus you would never understand how someone could post just because of their own convictions & the national memory they carry in their blood.
I do it for my parents who lived and survived this horror. I will never forget.
People like you do not have motherland no matter were they live. There is the name for like you: "mankurts" (The legend of the mankurt essentially described how to create ideal slaves by erasing their memories.)
MsOKZS 4 months ago
@MsOKZS And there is a good name for those like you: Judas. For money you'd sell your mother in Turkish bordell. Your God is American dollar. You live and lie for him. As well as your parents who lived and murdered for Reichsmarks. You may hide in your beloved US but that's not forever and you'll meet your parents were they are now - in Hell for killing Poles, Russians and Jews for Hitler.
tagaphon 4 months ago
@tagaphon Your comment is my proof. When you have no argument you go to assaults and insults.
You may try to say you know God but your comment shows you don't now God nor you know what was Christ's message. Nevertheless I pray for your soul to be saved, as despite the fact how angry and evil your actions are you are still God's child and Christ came to save you as much as me.
MsOKZS 4 months ago
@MsOKZS That's too late to pray for you. 30 silver coins were already taken. As far I know Christ never forgave Judas. So you'll meet your daddy so or so. One thing is sure: he'll never catch cold where he is.
tagaphon 4 months ago
@tagaphon Ненавидящих и обидящих нас прости Господи и даруй им царствие твое. Библию читайте, так как судя по вашему коментарию, вы ее совсем не знаете. А от имени Господа выступать и наказания присуждать вам не гоже, это богохульство, а богохульство это грех.
Желаю вам всего наилучшего.
MsOKZS 4 months ago
@MsOKZS Не могу ответить тем же. Я не желаю добра ни тебе, ни твоим братьям бандеровцам, позору украинского народа. Никто из вас не раскаялся, и каждый из таких, как ты, снова готов заливать кровью Украину. С таким же лицемерием и показной набожностью как у тебя. И живешь ты, только потому, что США спрятали выродков-твоих родителей от народного гнева. Всего тебе плохого.
tagaphon 4 months ago
dog eat c
07:18
c eat dog
08:42
hannibail 4 months ago
russians did this to ukriane.
akadannyisag 5 months ago
Sounds like MsOKZS knows the facts about this tragedy very well. I guess one doesn't have to stoop to derision when truth is the reference.
chickenwretch 5 months ago
@chickenwretch
Thank you. I know it way too well. Bothy my parents lived through it. Told the stories that makes you blood chill, like for example after NKVD repossessed everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) you can eat, they were standing in a circle around villages and killed everyone who tried to live to go find some food. You were prosecuted put to jail or Gulag if you take THREE spikes of grain. etc, etc, etc.
MsOKZS 5 months ago
In his 1953 speech the "father of the [UN] Genocide Convention," Dr Raphael Lemkin described "the destruction of the Ukrainian nation" as the "classic example of genocide," for "...the Ukrainian is not and never has been a Russian... It is a case of genocide, of the destruction of a culture and a nation.."
at uccla website his document: SOVIET_GENOCIDE_IN_THE_UKRAINE.
MsOKZS 5 months ago 2
In his 1953 speech the "father of the [UN] Genocide Convention," Dr Raphael Lemkin described "the destruction of the Ukrainian nation" as the "classic example of genocide," for "...the Ukrainian is not and never has been a Russian. His culture, his temperament, his language, his religion, are all different...to eliminate (Ukrainian) nationalism...the Ukrainian peasantry was sacrificed...a famine was necessary for the Soviet and so they got one to order..
MsOKZS 5 months ago
7 Aug. 1932 law drafted by Joseph Stalin on the protection of the socialist property stipulated the death penalty for "theft of socialist property". Ukrainian villagers were executed by firing squads for theft of a sack of wheat and in some cases even for two sheaves of corn or a husk of grain.
6 Dec. 1932 decree stipulated a complete blockade of villages for allegedly sabotaging the grain procurement campaign - de facto sentencing their Ukrainian inhabitants to execution by starvation.
MsOKZS 5 months ago
for fact people dont accuse jews but comunistes god damn those jews are dooing a damn good work!
dont0ask0why 6 months ago
Fuck russian fascism!
Ms73501505 7 months ago
@Ms73501505 its zionisme ......... jews
dont0ask0why 6 months ago
@Ms73501505 , "Russian fascism"? This was 100% Communism! Our main enemy for 45 yrs after WW2? The Communist party of the USSR were made up of 80% jews in the power positions. Politicians, police capos, judges, etc. all jewish. When the "purges" happened, it wasn't synagogues that got destroyed, but 1000yr old Orthodox Christian churches. It wasn' jews in he gulags. It was Christian RUssians. Groups like ADL, SPLC, WJO, etc. made sure we never learn of their genocides by censoring text books.
mondocrat 6 months ago 2
@mondocrat The synagogues were closed and Judaism repressed like any other religion. so learn your facts. Considering what the 'christians" did to the Jews in Russia and Ukraine for centuries, NO sympathy for churches turned into stables and swimming pools.
NativeNewYorkGuy 4 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy
"The synagogues were closed and Judaism repressed. Considering what the 'christians" did to the Jews in Russia and Ukraine for centuries " -
You are so wrong. Judaism was living/growing in Ukraine for centuries. Hasidim took it's biggest development there. I n Ukraine are some of the biggest Jewish sacred places. It couldn't happen if Judaism was repressed there for centuries. What was done to Jews before 1917 " Pogroms" - were a result of Russian Imperial politics of 19c.
MsOKZS 4 months ago
@NativeNewYorkGuy
"The synagogues were closed and Judaism repressed like any other religion." - this is not true either. After 1917 October revolution all religions were repressed the same. And, if to be honest, many Soviet Bolsheviks who came to the power in 1917 were Jews. They didn't care for their own culture and religion. They were the one who were destroying synagogues along with churches. As well as other communists (of all nations). They were people without religion and culture.
MsOKZS 4 months ago
watch?v=miHw4egKbZA
DrMundo74 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
also recommend a book by a Canadian Douglas Tottle 'Fraud, Famine and Fascism" just google "fraud,famine and fascism"
The author was probably a bit naive about USSR and too pro-socialist but the facts he uncovered about the proliferation of this lie are incredible...
DrMundo74 7 months ago
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DrMundo74 7 months ago
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DrMundo74 7 months ago
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DrMundo74 7 months ago
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DrMundo74 7 months ago
stop posting crap! the only thing 'exposed' is you - hiding behind numerous youtube accounts: irynski, Riaflower, ukrainianmusicvideo, slavicstudies
see the dialog between 'ukrainianmusicvideo' and 'watcherwatcher' on another youtube clip:watch?v=cD0XZlxKuig
DrMundo74 7 months ago
Thanks to DrMundo's having used this video as a forum for espousing his personal theories & that which he considers to be 'facts', the integrity of julianhayda's post has been usurped by spurious derision. I suggest that - as he considers himself to be an irrefutable authority - he creates his own video of the History/Ethnology/Linguistics (ad nauseum) of the region to present his 'facts'. It would be fascinating to see how well his grab-bag stands up under scrutiny.
irynski 8 months ago
Kinda weird that all the pictures of the "ukrainian famine" are the same as pictures of the famines caused by international intervention in 1919 and continuation of the red-white war into the former Russian Empire.
Weird or because the hollowdomore is nothing but a myth, created by the gestapo and spread by william hearst?
Fridaey13txhOktober 8 months ago
@Fridaey13txhOktober The Famine of 1932-33 in the Ukraine is a fact as well as in other regions of the Soviet Union at the time - regardless of ethnicity.
ETHNIC genocide is a monstrous lie.
Especially cynical are pictures of starving Russian children and dead bodies in Volga region they use in this anti-Russian propaganda.
DrMundo74 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@DrMundo74 @Fridaey13txhOktober Good to see that you have found each other to play with. Why don't you both go to one of the many Holodomor hoax videos and you can play there together with the rest of your Russophile, Imperialist friends. Better yet, use your time to actually do something useful with your lives.
irynski 8 months ago
@irynski I didn't play with him. I even corrected him if you noticed. The Famine is a fact. Ethnic genocide is a lie.
DrMundo74 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 How can I take you seriously? You were probably writing to yourself! You are Fridaey13txhOctober, LeninKGB, craxial666, etc. You a troll working for the Russification of the world, you bastard. (Thank you DrMundo74 for giving me an insight into how you function. I'll be calling this DrMundoism in future: how debate when you're incapable of debate; accuse everyone who disagrees with your perceptions as being one person and call them bitches, bastards and trolls.) You are pathetic.
irynski 8 months ago
@irynski Madame,
Why can't you find a more pacific hobby (how about promoting ukrainian soup "borsch") instead of fighting "Russification of the World" (as you put it lol) from your other YouTube accounts: Riaflower, slavicstudies, ukrainianmusicvideo, etc or making racist remarks from Karen41872 pretending to be a 24 year old "filmmaker" from Beverly Hills?
DrMundo74 8 months ago
p.s. The word "bastard" used by you below I did not use...
DrMundo74 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 No, but I can't call you a bitch - which is what you called me. It's a great reflection on your character that you stoop to calling me a troll, accuse me of using a variety of accounts, etc. What foolishness you resort to. You're one of those people who would happily resort to violence in order to 'teach' someone else that you're right and they're wrong.
irynski 8 months ago
@irynski You live in Australia, I think, I in US now, though I was born in Kyiv. DrMundo74 accused me the same. How they as he are afraid that there are many of us.
MsOKZS 5 months ago
@MsOKZS Haha! There are too many of us to make the lies they've been taught comfortable. It is always easier to understand conspiracy theories when the truth is too difficult to live with. To people like DrMundo74, the idea that there are so many of us whose families, and friends of our families, died is inconceivable. I could almost feel sorry for him if he weren't such a parasite. He wants to believe the world is black & white. My family is from the Poltava region. Vs'oho naikrashchoho!
irynski 5 months ago
The hollowdomore is nothing but a myth, created by the gestapo and spread by yellow rags mogul william hearst.
Fridaey13txhOktober 8 months ago
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irynski 8 months ago
It is ironic you believe the propaganda of the 3rd Reich, which you hate so much, Goebbels certainly wasn´t slacking. :-D
Fridaey13txhOktober 2 months ago
@Fridaey13txhOktober LOL! You're like a dog with a bone... I have far more respect for the likes of DrMundo. At least he has some semblance of intellect.
Speaking of semblance, I suspect that you were assembled with your arse for a brain. Sadly, your brain was lost in your nappies when you were a baby (probably about 10, maybe 15, years ago).
Let it go. You're stuck in your tragic world of black & white propaganda. Don't bother me again. You're just plainly stupid & boring.
irynski 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Come on, if you gonna hate the 3rd Reich so much, you gottta at least know what Goebbels and his coworkers actually said and that William Hearst had travelled to Germany and even met Hitler himself before printing his hollowdomore stories, amrit?
"You're stuck in your tragic world of black & white propaganda."
Hilarious, you are the one swallowing propaganda without thinking even once.
Fridaey13txhOktober 2 months ago
Alexander Solzhenitsyn, Nobel Prize winner who spent 8 years in Gulag labor camps in Siberia and 3 years in exile and who is hardly a "Communist regime sympathizer" wrote about the Holodomor campaign in 2008:
"This provocateurs outcry about "genocide" began to emerge decades later - first secretly, in the musty chauvinistic minds, viciously opposed to "Muscovites" - and now ascended to government circles of today's Ukraine, to surpass even the dashing swirls of Bolshevik propaganda "
DrMundo74 8 months ago
8 years for high treason? He should have gotten the Rosenberg treastement.
Fridaey13txhOktober 8 months ago
@Fridaey13txhOktober He was accused for his criticism of Stalin. Not the point. Point is the most famous dissident ever, a Nobel prize winner called Holodomor myth of genocide a lie. His mother was Ukrainian by the way and lived through the Famine of 1932-33...
DrMundo74 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 (wiki/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn) "Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn was born in Kislovodsk, RSFSR (now in Stavropol Krai, Russia) in 1918. His mother, Taisiya Solzhenitsyna (née Shcherbak) was Ukrainian. During World War I, Taisiya went to Moscow to study. While there she met and married Aleksandr's father. Solzhenitsyn was brought up in Rostov on the Don. My mother & babtsia were also Ukrainian & lived through Holodomor... & they were IN Ukraine. Not everyone died. His opinion is purely opinion.
irynski 8 months ago
@irynski Yes,thank you for the quote from Wikipedia. I'm sure your opinion is of greater value than Nobel Prize winner Aleksander Solzhenitsyn's.
DrMundo74 8 months ago
DON'T play at semantics with me! You know dribs & drabs & are certainly no ethnographer. Ukrainians might just as well have been called Mohairs by your definitions. Moscovia was renamed Russia (1547) in order to lay claims to the earlier Empire of Rus'. Khmel'nytskiy try to form an alliance with your 'Russia' believing that, as fellow Greco-Orthodox, an alliance against non-Orthodox ethnic groups plundering 'Mohairia' was necessary for survival. He was wrong. Muscovites were treacherous liars.
irynski 8 months ago
@irynski I'm not a "Muscovite". "Early Empire of Rus" are historic Russian Lands - Ruska Zemlya. Kiev was the second capital of Rus after Novgorod. After the fall of Kiev to Mongols and it's annihilation the lands around Kiev were absorbed by Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and given the name "Ukrajna" (land on the edge of the Kingdom) as well as other "ukrainas" - Podol, Wolyn, etc. What "dribs and drabs" you talking about?
There were no "Ukrainians" until 19th century. It's just a fact.
DrMundo74 8 months ago
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irynski 8 months ago
@irynski Moscow was founded by Yuri Dolgorukiy who was Grand Prince of Kiev in 1147 and became the major city of Rus after the fall of Kiev to mongols in 1240 and it's annexation by Polish-Lithuanian Kingdom. Even before that another Russian city of Vladimir-Suzdal was already the major power of Rus. "Moscovia" is how the Grand Duchy of Moscow was called by Poland that occupied Russian lands. There was no Ukrainian State or "Nation" in sight back then. What's this nonsense about "mohair" about?
DrMundo74 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 The 'nonesense' you're referring to is to point out that, disregarding when the term 'Ukraine' came in, a distinct ethnic group lived on those lands. What they are called throughout history is irrelevant & does not negate their existence: people with their own culture & their own language. It is the victors who write history. The fact that we were sandwiched between Poland & Russia who needed us (The Breadbasket of Europe) was our great tragedy. We existed & continue to exist!
irynski 8 months ago
@irynski "Breadbasket of Europe" ))) Except for the cities from the Early Russian times much of the territory was a Wild Field (steppe) before it became part of Russian Empire
DrMundo74 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 I ve happened to witness your heated debate with Irynski and iam pleased with the way you put ukraine obsessed rusophobes in their place,do you speak russian?
LeninKGB 8 months ago
@LeninKGB
Nah, not really heated...She's kinda inconsistent...Too many accounts I guess
Answering your question - I sure do. Not a huge fan of Lenin and KGB though :)
DrMundo74 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 а чего же канал закрыл?:)Большим фанатом лично Ульянова я тоже не являюсь,просто выбрал этот ник как способ выражения патриотических и про-советских взглядов:)
Да,и согласен что госпожа Ирински хоть и не лишена задора,фактами почему то оперирует не часто.
LeninKGB 8 months ago
@LeninKGB She's just a bitch writing under her many aliases: Karen41872; Riaflower; irynski; slavicstudies, ukrainianmusicvideo...etc,etc
DrMundo74 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 You paranoid, foolish man!
irynski 8 months ago
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irynski 8 months ago
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irynski 8 months ago
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irynski 8 months ago
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@DrMundo74 @LeninKGB @Karen41872 @Riaflower
DrMundo has informed his equally ill-informed Russophile friend, LeninKGB, that I'm, "... just a bitch writing under her many aliases: Karen41872; Riaflower; irynski; slavicstudies, ukrainianmusicvideo...etc,etc"! I'm coining a new 'ism'. DrMundoism is a state of being able to debate beyond taking snippets of information out of context to create a tunnel-visioned argument. Pryvit to all of me's I don't know!!!
irynski 8 months ago
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@DrMundo74 @LeninKGB @slavicstudies @ukrainianmusicvideo
DrMundo has informed his equally ill-informed Russophile friend, LeninKGB, that I'm, "... just a bitch writing under her many aliases: Karen41872; Riaflower; irynski; slavicstudies, ukrainianmusicvideo...etc,etc"! I'm coining a new 'ism'. DrMundoism is a state of being able to debate beyond taking snippets of information out of context to create a tunnel-visioned argument. Pryvit to all of me's I don't know!!!
irynski 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 As noted to LenininKGB, I am not going to reference Ukrainian or non-Russian sources as I know I will be pounced upon as espousing Ukrainian fascist, anti-Semitic, anti-everything propaganda. I can't reference independent Western research as I am, then, pounced on for espousing corrupt US sponsored lies based on their agenda. Who, then, can I reference when trying to hold a reasonable discussion? That's why I'm cursing myself for being stupid enough to enter into a dialogue here.
irynski 8 months ago
@irynski Well, I don't know how to help you. Perhaps, just be critical...
DrMundo74 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 Not too many accounts on my behalf... Too many postings by you. Each time I receive a barrage of comments from you I can't even find them for the other comments you've posted to no one. This is not a serious forum. Snippets of information don't form a basis on which to have an intelligent, academic discussion. Again, I curse myself for even attempting to hold a discussion with you on any level.
irynski 8 months ago
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@DrMundo74 Where on earth did you learn history? I'm absolutely serious regarding this question! There isn't a University it the world (outside of Russia) that your interpretation of history seriously. There isn't a linguist in the world (outside of some small lunatic fringe that no one takes seriously) who doesn't recognise Ukrainian as a separate language, certainly NOT a dialect of Russian or Polish. Get your academic facts straight before you deign to try to rewrite the human sciences!
irynski 8 months ago
@irynski
Open Wikipedia and read about Ukrainian language:
"It is accepted that before the 18th century the precursor to the modern literary Ukrainian language was a vernacular language used mostly by peasants... as no traces of earlier literary works could be found"
West Ukraine was part of Poland for centuries - hence 4,000+ Polish words in "mova".
Other than that Ukrainian language is not much different from common Russian. Dutch is more different from Afrikaans.
DrMundo74 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 I already did and cited the reference to a translator being needed at Pereiaslov! It is evident to all that I am trying to discuss something with a dear, one-eyed man. Your quote is taken out of context, plus you have appended the ".. part of Poland.. hence 4,00+ Polish words.." from your own mind or somewhere else. Read the article properly. Various theories are attributed, particularly by Russian scientists, which have been refuted. Peasant language? Written language was banned!!!
irynski 8 months ago
@irynski You want me to give you all Polish words in West Ukrainian "mowa" never to be found in any document of Ancient Rus? It'll be a long list LOL
Written language was banned for centuries? Not a single Ancient Ukrainian patriot jotted a few lines in "forbidden language" for centuries?!!!
DrMundo74 8 months ago
@irynski Oh please please! Where can I read about "The Translator"? What was his name? Did he translate from the "forbidden language"? Is it documented in the "forbidden language"?
Btw It's PereiaslAv or Pereiaslav-Poltavskyi, now - Pereyaslav Khmelnitskyi (Also known as Pereyaslav-Russki - as it is mentioned for the first time in the text of the Rus' treaty with the Byzantine Empire (911) - terrible isn't it?)
,
DrMundo74 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 Again, The Translator is referenced in the article YOU pointed me to in Wikipedia. Ukrainian_language > Developments under Poland and Lithuania > By the mid-17th century, the linguistic divergence between the Ukrainian and Russian languages was so acute that there was a need for translators during negotiations for the Treaty of Pereyaslav, between Bohdan Khmelnytsky, head of the Zaporozhian Host, and the Russian state. LOOK AT IT. You cited the page! Read ALL of it, blind man!
irynski 8 months ago
@irynski You already wrote that. I just hope someone will correct this BS. Khmelnitsky was a well-educated person and could speak Polish, Latin and even Turkish and Tatar. Russian? Of course! Khmelnitskyi letters in Russian are preserved.
"Кому мила вера благочистивая, от поляков на унию претворяемая, кому за вас любима целостность отчизны нашей , украины Малороссийской..."(Белоцерковский универсал, 1648 год)
He couldn't write in Ukrainian that appeared 200 years later...
DrMundo74 8 months ago
Cossacks wrote to Kmelnitskyi on Jan 3 1654: "А замысел вашь добь удаться и буде а всемъ народамъ малороссийскимъ по обеимъ сторонамь Днепра будучимъ, под протекцию Великодержавнейшаго и Пресветлейшаго монарха Российского, заслушны быть признаемъ и даемо нашу войсковую вамь параду, а быстё того дела не оставляли и оное кончили, яку наилучший пользе отчизне Малороссийской. "
DrMundo74 8 months ago
Then again, event though Khmelnitskyi was in service to Polish Crown before the Uprising and all upper classes spoke mostly pure Polish ("hetman" was a Polish title) why would he converse with Russian Tzar Alexei whom he plead for Protectorate and unification of Little Rosia with Great Rosia for several years (The Tzar did not want to start a new war with the Poles) in anything other then Russian which he knew quite well???
DrMundo74 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 -- "hetman" is actually a TURKISH term.
Karen41872 8 months ago
@Karen41872 Polish "hetman", Czech "hejtman", German "hauptmann" (headman).
Cossack (Cherkes) "ataman" is rather from Turkish ata-man (ata="grandfather", man="me") or Tatar (ata=father, taman=host,army) Originally Cossacks are of mixed ethnic origins:Kasog, Cherkes, Sarmatian, Tatar,Turkic,etc -The Wild Field, that mixed with the remaining Slavic Russian people after the Golden Horde and became Christian. Polish title of Hetman was founded in1505. In the Registered Cossack Army - end of the16c.
DrMundo74 8 months ago
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irynski 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 Incidentally, while I, personally, have not flagged your pseudo-scientific diatribes and 'facts' as spam, it appears that plenty of people have. You are a dangerously ignorant, obviously self-taught Russophile who would never be able to hold his own in a true debate. As I pointed out earlier, you even hide behind a hidden profile because you are such a sad coward. I won't indulge you any longer as I have better things to do with my time. Apparently, you have not.
irynski 8 months ago
@irynski thanks for "not indulding"!
DrMundo74 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 PS No more wasting time on you. I just wanted to clarify that 'dear, one-eyed man' was a typo. Please read as being a 'deaf, one-eyed man'. You reference articles on the web (try doing some reading outside of the web!) without knowing who wrote them and aren't even aware of the names and agenda of those who are attributed to known 'historian/chroniclers' (using these terms loosely). You pick single paragraphs out of entire articles and take them out of context. Finita la musica!
irynski 8 months ago
@irynski What's the difference between "on the web" and "outside the web"?
DrMundo74 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 Wikipedia is hardly a serious source. Little in the way of original documentation can be sourced via the web. Academic papers/texts of any depth cannot be sourced from the web. It's a grab-bag of tiny chunks of subjective opinion and misinformation. Try to do some original research from a library or read some acknowledged academic research only available at the moment in printed form!
irynski 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 Since you are so fond of citing Wikipedia, take a look at the Russian entries for Украинский язык and Русский язык. Tell me where either claim that Ukrainian is not a language but a dialect, therefore there is no such ethnic group as Ukrainians. Read the articles CAREFULLY. I know you are predisposed to tunnel vision and focus only on phrases and clauses that suit your purposes.
irynski 8 months ago
@irynski I don't really have any "purposes". I just commented that this "ethnic genocide" propaganda is a sickening bunch of lies and you started this etnographic discussion..
What "purposes" you imply I have?
DrMundo74 8 months ago
Russian and Ukrainian are no more different than Dutch and Afrikaans if you take all Polish words out of Ukrainian (which you will never find in any document of Ancient Rus). After Mongol pogrom and annexation of West Russian lands by Lithuania-Poland Western Russian underwent Polonization. Of course they spoke different from Greater Russia. That is how Ukrainian “mova” emerged.
Written Ukrainian appeared only in the19 c. The codification of Ukrainian wasn't complete even by Bolsheviks in 1927
DrMundo74 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 Tell your theory to a linguist and they'll laugh at you!
irynski 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 The very word "Ukraine", however, is much older than Russia itself. It was first used in the 12th century chronicles when the powerful Kyivan Rus' state stretched over the territories of modern Ukraine, Moldova, Russia, Belorus and the Baltics. The name was apparently in use earlier. It's roots can be found in the modern Ukrainian language, which still retains the word "ukraity" meaning "to mark out": it is the antithesis of what you postulate. 'U' designates WITHIN the 'edges'.
irynski 8 months ago
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@irynski Ancient Rus indeed stretched from Scandinavia to the Black Sea. It was Russian state not "Ukrainian".
The "Tale of bygone years" also known as Russian Primary Chronicle" begins with: "Повѣсть временныхъ лѣт черноризца Федосьєва манастыря Печерьскаго. Откуду єсть пошла Руская земля"
DrMundo74 8 months ago
You can find the Russian Primary Chronicles on the internet:
webDOTkuDOTedu/~russcult/culture/handouts/chronicle_allDOThtml
(Selections from the Russian Primary Chronicle translated by Samuel H. Cross and published in Harvard Studies and Notes in Philology and Literature, Volume 12, 1930)
DrMundo74 8 months ago
"Kievan Rus" is the term introduced by Russian historian Karamzin only in the 19 c to describe the period of RUSSIAN state in 10-12 centuries when of all Russian cities Kiev was the major political center of Rus, until it was destroyed by Mongols in 1240 and later absorbed by Polish-Lithuanian Kingdom.
However, Rus begins from NOVGOROD. It is from Novgorod Prince Oleg of Rus came to Kiev, made it his new capital and called it "The Mother of Russian Cities" (not Ukrainian).
DrMundo74 8 months ago
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Look in Wikipedia: NOVGOROD, OLEG, RUS, RUSSIA
If you don't like Wikipedia - try Encyclopaedia Britannica: NOVGOROD
Primary Chronicle:
"The oldest, Rurik, located himself in Novgorod; the second, Sineus, in Beloozero; and the third, Truvor, in Izborsk. On account of these Varangians, the district of Novgorod became known as Russian land."
In the original: " Руская земля" - Russian Land
DrMundo74 8 months ago
The fact that now Kiev is the capital of the country called Ukraine existing since 1991 does not change RUSSIAN history, just like Istanbul being now in Turkey does not change that Constantinople was the capital of Christian Byzantine Empire. Already before the fall of Kiev to mongols in 1240 political center of Rus moved to Vladimir-Suzdal (Look in Wikipedia : Vladimir-Suzdal) and then Moscow.
DrMundo74 8 months ago
Kiev was never called "Oukraina" in the chronicles. The old Russian word "Oukraina" in the Primary Chronicle is only mentioned 2 times and refers ONLY to Pereyaslav BORDERLAND and in another instance to Galich Borderland - look at the map of Rus in the 12 c - they were the Borderlands.
In later chronicles and documents there are dozens of "ukraina"s (Russian for "borderlands,periphery, outskirts" ) all over Rus and Russia - even in Siberia and Far North Murmansk Region (Ukraina Tersky).
DrMundo74 8 months ago
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There are many instances of "ukraina" used in plural in the ancient Russian documents: e.g., "Но и ноне по украйнамъ молятся ему проклятому болвану Перуну" "And still on the outskirtS they worship the damn Perun" - after the Baptism of Rus there were still worshipers of Pagan gods on the outskirts.
Google: St Gregory letters
or: Russian travelers to Constantinople
DrMundo74 8 months ago
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After the fall of Kiev to Mongols the population moved up North.
Vladimir-Suzdal became the major center of Rus and then Moscow
Kiev was absorbed by Polish-Lithuanian Kingdom.
from Latin text 1650:
"Margo enim polonice Kray; inde Ukrajna, quasi provincia ad fines Regni posita"
in Enlish:
"Border in Polish - "Kraj"; hence Ukraine - as, a province located on the edge of the Kingdom ".
DrMundo74 8 months ago
Polish King Stefan Batory referred in 1580 "universal" to Russian Ukrajna, Kiev Ukrajna, Volyn Ukrajna, Podolye Ukrajna, Bracław Ukrajna - many different "ukrajna"s - borderlands of Polish-Lithuanian Kingdom.
DrMundo74 8 months ago
There has never been a Ukrainian State until 1991 when Yeltsin and 2 other communists from Ukraine and Belarus divided USSR built on the territories of Russian Empire - certainly NO Ancient Ukrainian State ruled by Russian Rurik Dynasty Princes. There was Oukraina (and not just one) as a BORDERLAND of Rus, and then Ukrajna as provinces of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
DrMundo74 8 months ago
Look at the map of Poland with the borders of 1648. In Wikipedia: "Polen in den Grenzen vor 1660" with the words Ukraine (hard to find) and also separately Kozaken somewhere under LITTAUEN and KLEINE POLEN (in big letters).
DrMundo74 8 months ago
The first topographic fixation of "Ukraine" was published in 1650 in Rouen Book "Description d'Ukraine", written by a military engineer and cartographer Guillaume Levasseur de Boplan, who was invited by King Sigismund III in the 30's and 40's of the XVII century and served as an officer in the Polish army, and on behalf of King Wladyslaw IV and the Crown Hetman Konetspolski made a detailed map of the border lands of the Rcecz Pospolita Commonwealth (Poland)
DrMundo74 8 months ago
There simply was no such word "Ukrainians" until second half of 19th century...Otherwise give me an example.Through centuries Ukraine had only geographical meaning of the border territories of Russia and Poland.
DrMundo74 8 months ago
The territory that departed from the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth to Russia after signing the peace treaty in 1667 - militant cossack semi-autonomy under the name "Hetmanate" was a small fraction of todays Ukraine territory which became what it is under Soviet Union as UkrSSR. The remainder lands even after the 1667 treaty continued to be parts of Poland or Turkey or were Russian historic lands long before this event. The Poles lost Kiev to Russia (originally Russian land until 14c).
DrMundo74 8 months ago
As for the Chernigov, Russia just took back from the Poles what Poland had taked from Russia several decades before, in the course of the famous "Troubles". Chernigov region back in 1503, was part of the Russian state. The very old Russian city of Chernigov was built by Tsar Ivan the 3. And only in the early 17c during the Moscow campaign undertaken by the Poles in 1612 became part of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
DrMundo74 8 months ago
The quasi "Ukrainian" state of Hetmanate, which lasted until 18 th c did not arise BEFORE accession to Russia, but AFTER. It is when becoming part of Russia Cossacks (ie essentially the Black Sea steppes pirates of all kinds) actually received the status of the All-Russian elite, which they could not possibly get from Poland, who with fire and sword tried to restore order in this region.
DrMundo74 8 months ago
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Cossacks never called themselves Ukrainians. When Bogdan Khmelnitsky Cossacks plead Russian Tzar Alexei for Protectorate and for the unification of Little and Great Rus in 1654 they conversed in a Common Russian Language:
"царь и великий князь Алексей Михайлович, всеа Русии самодержец восточной, которого мы уже шесть лет безпрестанными молении нашими себе просим...."
DrMundo74 8 months ago
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"King and Grand Prince Alexei Mikhailovich, The Sole Ruler of All Rusia, whom we already six years of constant prayers to us are requesting."
"The christian orthodox great sovereign king of the east is from the piety of our common Greek law, of our one confession, one body are Orthodox Church of the Great Rosii, under Jesus Christ.
DrMundo74 8 months ago
"This great emperor, King Cristian, had mercy on our unbearable bitterness over the Orthodox Church in our Little Rosia, six years of our prayers prayers not despise,
now graciously his royal heart to us bowed, his great fellow men to us with his royal highness was pleased to send, if with zeal the royal high hand will not love - will not find the peaceful haven. And who would disagree with us now, where ever he wants - let go."
DrMundo74 8 months ago
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Brotherhoods (Kiev, Ostrogh, Lvov, Vilna), the Hetmans from Sagaidachny to EVEN TRAITOR Mazeppa and especially Vygovsky, Kotliarevsky, Tschevchenko, Franko, Hrushevsky - all historically affirm Rusin or little Russian or simply Russian ethnic identity, but NEVER ONCE even have a conception of a "ukrainian nationality," partially because one didn't exist and most importantly because they were nominally faithful to Rus.
DrMundo74 8 months ago
Zaporozhian Cossacks never called themselves "Ukrainians". The first to call themselves "Ukrainians" were Polish aristocrats in Kiev (they spoke Polish too). They also were the first to start developing the concept of Ukrainian ethnic identity separate from All-Russian culture and history. Poland had many wars with Russia through history. Hence the Polish word "Moskal" (Muscovite) instead of Russian and calling Russia "Muscowy". Then this concept of Ukrainian Nationality was fostered by Austrian
DrMundo74 8 months ago
Empire. Already in 1848 the governor of Galicia, Count Stadion proposed that calling Rusyn population of Galicia "Russian" was dangerous for national unity of the Austrian Empire, after which the authorities officially started calling them "ruthenians» (Ruthenen). He addressed the Rusyn deputies:
"You can count on the support of government if you want to be an independent nation and reject national unity with the people in Russia, i.e., if you want to be ruthenium, not Russian.
DrMundo74 8 months ago
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November 25, 1890 in the Galicia Sejm ( Polish Lower House) deputies Yulian Romanchuk and Andrej Vahnyanin (both - teachers of Russian schools, ie government employees) made a statement that "population of Galicia has nothing to do with either Russia or the Russian people but wholy remains faithful to the Imperial house of Habsburg and the Catholic Church." From that on the Russian deputies in the Seim became "Ukrainians".
DrMundo74 8 months ago
The following split among Galician Rusyns resulted in extermination of Rusophile population (including in the first concentration camps in Europe and the World 1914-1917 - TALERHOF and TEREZIN - look up in Wikipedia). Only a book or a postcard in Cyrillic were grounds for arrest. Austrian Government paid 300 crowns for each "Russian Spy" turned in. Thousands of people were exterminated in the concentration camps. That was indeed a genocide!
Here's a movie on YouTube: /watch?v=n70tN0maJhQ
DrMundo74 8 months ago
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Already in late 1880s Galicia became the center of Ukrainian propaganda. With the support of the Polish and Austrian administration Ukrainian organizations were founded- the People's Rada, "Shevchenko Society" of M. Grushevsky " Pravda " A. Barvinskiy etc.With the support of the Austrian Government the networks "Prosvita' and the paramilitary "Sich" and "Falcon" were extended all over Galicia, which in the WWI were used in the fight against Russia.
DrMundo74 8 months ago
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So much for the Ukrainian "Nation"...
Anyway, the video is about so called "Holodomor" - ethnic genocide of Ukrainians you say.
After Bolsheviks took power in Russia in 1917 the official policy was Ukrainization - read in Wikipedia.
" Ukraine's cities are still dominated by Russian elements, in the course of time these cities will be inevitably Ukrainized"
Joseph Stalin,
From the speech at the X Congress of the Party in 1921
DrMundo74 8 months ago
If Stalin and Bolsheviks wanted to eradicate "Ukrainian nation" why were tons of food from the State Reserve sent to Ukraine in 1934? (That is when hunger was still all over the country)?
Or why did Stalin give Ukraine parts of Poland and Romania and a permanent seat in the UN after the war?
Or why chairman Khruschev gave Russian Crimea to Ukraine in 1954? Or why ukrainian Brezhnev ruled USSR for 18 years?
DrMundo74 8 months ago 8
Lastly, "Communist Russian Regime" (where Ukrainians were among the ruling elite) does not exist already 20 years! Are you some kind of "Cold War Veteran"?
DrMundo74 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 As for so called *White Rus*-it is but another region of Russia that drifted away from the rest of the land due to a lasting foreign yoke during the medieval era,also the word *white* in it has nothing to do with appearance or eye colour,it marks a geographic location(like Black Rus,Red Rus etc) It is amazing how they intentionaly misinterpret history and base their assessments on deliberate distortion of facts..isnt it?:))
LeninKGB 8 months ago
@LeninKGB As far as the culture of the people "the parts" have never been too far apart. No matter what twisted games the politicians and big business play. Wish there was less politics on YouTube. Enough turbulence in this world. Perhaps it's better not to answer these trolls even though sometimes it's hard to just pass by some hysterical BS. Eventually they'll become a nuisance and will die out. Peace))
DrMundo74 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 NOW you use the term Rus!!! Was Rus' not our common heritage from whence we diverged into different ethnic groups with our own languages and cultures? Why are you so adamant to claim it all as "Russian" history. You can't quite seem to make your mind up, can you...
irynski 8 months ago
@irynski
Rus is not a “term”. It is the name of the Ancient Russian State. "Руская земля" .
"Ruskaya Zemlya" = Russian Land. Paste ' Руская земля' in Google Translate if you don't trust me. Also look up the etymology of "Rus" and "Russia" in Wikipedia. I am sorry it was not called "Ukr" or "Ukrainska Zemlya"...
DrMundo74 8 months ago
I understand your frustration but the rulers of Rus - Russian Princes and Tzars of Rurik Dynasty were Russian not “Ukrainians”. Oleg the Prophet came to rule Kiev in 882 AD and declared it to be "The mother of Russian Cities".
In the Primary Chronicle:
Въ лѣто 6390 … [и] сѣде Ѡлегъ кнѧжа въ Києвѣ . и реч Ѡлегъ се буди мт҃и градомъ рускими
"And sat Oleg to rule in Kiev, and said Oleg let it be the mother of russian cities"
So was the Russian State found
DrMundo74 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 Read wiki/Rus_(name), paying particular attention to > From Rus to Russia & > From Rus to Ukraine.
irynski 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 You claim you have no agenda! Your agenda is clear: you want to prove that an entire people did not exist. Ukrainians are some sort of quasi-Nation? You've stated the case at hand, being that of accession on behalf of your "Russian" state and that of the "Polish" state. Accession, in itself, tells you that oppressive methods/occupation by 'fire and sword' on behalf of BOTH Russians and Poles was used. Status? As what? Subjugated subjects of the Russian Empire.
irynski 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 One map from an Austro-Polish source? Are you kidding? There are thousands of maps from many, many sources. Take a look at the map wiki/Little_Russia and read the article!
irynski 8 months ago
@irynski LOL Looked at the map...finally found the word "Ukrain" (!!!) - right from Lemberg (pol.Lwow), under Volhinia (Volhynia) and Czernihow (Chernigov), above Braklaw (pol.Bracław) clearly Borderlands of Poland and Russia, WITHIN the borders of Poland and Russia of 1747 and not a state...
DrMundo74 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 Haha! As noted, there are thousands of maps around. TO QUOTE YOU regarding sourcing more: "There are plenty of "sources" - Google, Wikipedia, Historical documents, Ancient Russian Chronicles...I don't know...Common sense also helps a lot..." You refuse to see that there is any material outside of the point you want to prove. That indicates nothing in the way of common sense, just tunnel vision.
irynski 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 Yes, of course. Everyone packed their bags, got on a plane and moved to Vladimir-Suzdal. They thought about it for a little bit and decided they'd like to live in Moscow instead. Simple explanations for simple minds.
irynski 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 Wrong information. Please provide your source.
irynski 8 months ago
@irynski I don't know what "source" you talking about...There are plenty of "sources" - Google, Wikipedia, Historical documents, Ancient Russian Chronicles...I don't know...Common sense also helps a lot...
DrMundo74 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 Oh, you mean translation of works written by Serge A. Zenkovsky in the 1930's! The same Serge Zenkovsky whose aristocratic family (only some of whom were actually Ukrainian but changed their names from Ukrainian 'ko' endings to Russian 'ov' endings) had lived in Kyiv for generations but spoke ONLY Russian. This Russian wannabe moved to the US and was an editor of 'The Russian Review' from 1959. Yes, I can see how I should take his historical interpretations seriously.
irynski 8 months ago
Comment removed
DrMundo74 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 The Primary Russian Chronicle was written by a monk whose name was Nestor around 1113...
DrMundo74 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 The name, in itself, is duplicitous in its translation into English. Primary Russian Chronicle when Russia, even by your standards, did not exist? It is The Primary Chronicle of Rus' if it is to be translated properly on the most fundamental level.
irynski 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@irynski It is called "The Tale of Bygone Years" by the introductory phrase in Hypathian Codex:
"Повѣсть временныхъ лѣт черноризца Федосьєва манастыря Печерьскаго. Откуду єсть пошла Руская земля"
"The tale of bygone years by the blackrobe monk of the Pechersk Monastery of Fedosiy. From whence comes the Russian land"
Feodosiy is Theodosius of the Caves (c. 1008 - May 3, 1074) - hegumen of the Russian Orthodox Church revered as a Saint, one of the founders of Kiev-Pechersk Lavra.
DrMundo74 8 months ago
@DrMundo74 For anyone interested in how reliable an historical chronicler Zenkovsky is, take a look at his obituary @
jstorDOTorg/pss/130246