If genes factor into what we call race then it does have definitional power. By virtue of that fact, races are defined by genetic information and must therefore have the same cutoff points one would see amongst different animals.
Not surprised by the infant example, an infant would seek any person that most resembled its parents.
Toddlers are "racists" because they are predisposed to playing with children who look like them. Yeah, no. It's stupid to cite the psychological attractiveness of being surrounded by people who look like you. Toddlers being "racist" says more about the trials of multiracial societies which may /may not be overcome or be redeemable(racism certainly doesn't help) than with definitional knowledge articulated through genetic information. Yes, meeting different-looking people challenges us.(cont'd)
Let me get your "I would hang out with a black guy, but that does not make me … I have a preference for my own race, and so … in my view it is natural" argument straight.
You're saying that every single time you find yourself in a situation where you're interacting/socializing with a black person, the idea that "I'd rather be doing this with a white guy, but oh well" flits through your head?
If I'm right, then I and most reasonable people can assure you that THIS IS NOT AT ALL NATURAL.
@spawktalk, you are neglecting the fact that exposure to heavy metal and rap music causes genetic regression by instilling hate, evil, and depression into listeners. This, in turn, will cause people to become hateful, evil, and generally unmotivated, resulting in poor life choices and low income. These attributes will be passed on to offspring throughout the course of their upbringing. It makes a good case to listen to fun, up-beat music by artists like The Jonas Brothers and Miley Cyrus!
@BieberBabyBopper LMFAO why the hell are you going around other peoples videos and saying their evil, Up beat music like the Jonas Brothers, The Jonas Brothers SUCK so does Bieber, if your gonna annoy people like that then just get off the internet and by the way i would Listen To MTV2 Headbanger's Ball instead of that disney shit, go to hell motherfucker
It must be all that neanderthal and other sub human DNA that has resulted in Europeans having lower IQs. That still wouldn't justify violence against them. Rape, pillage, in the name of superiority.
A good rule of thumb is the more level-headed and detached your information source is, the more likely they are speaking the truth and not defending a dogma.
Breaking people of their programming is much like the deprogramming a cult member -- they get violent and do what I call "the screeching monkey".
One wonders how much violence in history can be attributed to defense of dogma.
Yada yada, splicing hair. The point is simple, HeyRuka made a hasty clumsy unsupported presentation of her case, she did not draw the line that would separate her from herp derp pro-violence nationalists on her comment section, and she could not put more than 40 words in a minute, because even her mind is not wrapped around what she says. You can spend many nights on Powerpoint, but you can't make her video a good presentation. I guess it has to do with Racism being crap in general. Bollocks vid
@SecularNumanist I am glad you did. However I meant all of it, not just the 2 sentences. Do not forget that. Did you revive Fringe or is he still unconscious were Skep left him after moping the floor with his face? Now its time for Prediction, as Fringe does it. I predict that from this comment, you will like the previous 2 sentences. Magic!
Why should she have to qualify herself as such? Does every leftist have to repudiate communism and other strains of egalitarian thought before making a video about the topic?
@addendum044 No Rightard, but every leftist that attracts fanatic communists and anarchic terrorists on their comment section, DOES HAVE TO draw the line that separates him from them. Its like saying leaving your left overs on the table overnight is not inviting to cockroaches. Too hard for you? Here, simple, If I claim I am for a voluntary movement but most of my fans comment in favor of a forced movement, my sayings are VAGUE and inviting. Get it? Brilliant. Oh, I am not lefty. Just human.
@achzdck now on to the starving lol i think everywhere i mean in america we got a nice chunk of people who starve. along with parts of asia especially india not only african nations also the pyramids are easily explainable i mean dude we see the intermediate steps by way of hyroglyphics and the pyramids that came before the ones in gyza they had an awesome knowledge of mathematics and geometry this is so available to anyone who wants to know it try reading a book,or going to college maybe.
@achzdck so humans did not build the pyramids? then who? also refrencing the blacks of america is not a reflection of africa and it's rich history. now on to the invention do you know who invented the stop light or the air force pilot helmet original design which we use till this day? black men sir lol. also note that it is quite common for all low class people in america to have kids and reap the social program bennifets.
@achzdck really so the first languages spoken and written were not in the motherland? also the oldest model of a harp we have is not from the motherland? also some of the first gods ever imagined did not come from the motherland? also the moors of north africa did not give a lot of the knowledge that was built upon by the europeans to the arabs and mediteranian peoples?lol sorry you need to face the truth white is not equal to superior nor is any other ethnic label.
I would just like to put out that your example of "5-7 year olds having clear ideas of whites being better than blacks.." is a bad one. In that 5-7 are at about the exact age that children begin, or have already been digesting & repeating the ideas of their parents. At this age I myself had been speaking full distinct sentences for 2-2.5 years. Would I have not already begun imitation, which is constant? I suggest u look at studies of babies. Also child psychology. It seems to disagree a little.
@Christopholaes Mind you, I'm not saying I totally disagree with what your saying. Just that I think there is a little more to the seeming preference of children to the same 'race' as your parentage. For instance, ideas like the built in understanding of many non-verbal cues. Meaning that children are learning preference in social situations before they are even able to speak. Whereby through body language our parents are already subconsciously showing us in whose company they prefer to be.
@darklord220 this is more than personal experience this is a legitimate objection racism is innate,but how it is expressed is obviously learned i would'nt know wtf a cracka was until someone told me come on now your attempting to shut up anyone which you disagree with.
@Christopholaes our welcome we stand on different sides of this issue,but i do not like people trying to silence those with good points. also i have looked into this it is pretty clear kids even as babies get social cues from their parents so keep nothing,but whites around they communicate "oh that's good" same thing with black and any other they pick it up like we all do which is innate because we see it in the psyche already there,but culture mostly defines how it is expressed.
@SuperSkepticism Not sure I totally follow what you mean there? Though i would agree culture is what defines how racism or other such traits are expressed in most cases.
But if your suggesting racism is 'innate' or 'natural' just because we cannot prevent our brains from digesting the lessons they are constantly teaching us, through our imitation. Then I disagree. This is taught or passed on behaviour by definition. If your parents were not taught you, would not have learned it. Not natural.
@Christopholaes oh i was really talking about the adaptive taught trait of xenophobia which spawns racism which is great for promotion of your genetic material although ethnic groups have less diversity within then out we see this in genetic study like how we all seem to overlap so i would like to call this a "evolutionary hickup" something we adapted was useful,but is actually retarded and now with our current knowledge is pretty worthless.
@SuperSkepticism Yes, i often have to explain to people just because it's in our genotype to be aggressive territorial megalomaniacs, does not mean it is necessarily 'natural' or 'right' to do so. That also we have a 'naturally' powerful, and analytical, supercomputer sitting between our ears that allows us a lot more cognition of even everyday functions of the brain. Meaning we have a lot more choice in what we do and how we rationalise these actions than our mammal cousins.
@Christopholaes i could see that then again i dont care for the implications of this society breaks down and it's brownies vs. whites oh well we are tribal might as well go with the great ape flow right? lol then again iam a bit of a moral nihilist just i ring in on issue that concern me because they sometime spread misinformation which is what i do value truth no matter who it does or does not hurt truth is important period.also you would call the human brain a super computer? really?
@SuperSkepticism Well yeah, in fact based on size and computational power the brain is still vastly more powerful than the worlds leading 20 supercomputers running simultaneously on the same problem.
Only problem is there's no DOS prompt in the brain, you cannot command it to do anything. It just reacts. You spew out the reaction. So that's why we cannot do to the calculations that go into the multiples of ten to the power of ten etc. It's not directed & most calculation happens subconsciously.
@SuperSkepticism Yeah, interesting thing about this whole 'black vs. 'white' hypothesis. It's IS all based on the more superficial or obvious cultural traits rather than the genetic. As it is quite easy to show a greater genetic disparity between certain European 'white' races, than there can be between the darker 'races'. If we were to take the genetics as a cue for racism, I should hate the Dutch, Swedish and Eastern Europeans they have just as much if not more difference in genetics?
@Christopholaes iam fully aware of this,but in america it seems like the most likely tihng to occur and i just say this if it comes to pass my closest friends might end up dead. now for races i think it is silly to call these races like oh im african american one black race then the ethiopians is another black race when we have a nice amount of genetic similarity same thing with the whites i say this is too hard and goofy. classifying races is just too hard and is unnecessary.
@SuperSkepticism Oh yeah, I understand what you mean. This is a sad truth.
Not sure about the second part. As I'm kinda suggesting this is why genetically speaking the characteristics we pick for in day to day society that delineate 'race'. Are defunct. They don't work at all. As i'm suggesting the differences between some 'white' looking races are greater than some of the differences between the anglo/gauls and say the Spanish or Turkish. English really have different genetics to french etc.
@Christopholaes Let's also not forget for hundreds of years nearly all the nations of Europe were also considered in most circumstances to be different 'races' till quite recently. It helped they had discovered a few continents with other humans with many distinct phenotypes, many distinct in a common obvious superficial way. Being that of darker skin.
Darker skin also being a well recognised adaptive trait born from the environment one resides in. See how the common definition just fails.
@SuperSkepticism Just as an aside. Been learning a lot about his stuff lately. I find it funny in today's day and age when sayings or adages like (though not totally accurate) 90% of communication is body language. Or the common knowledge that the bond between a mother and a child is a real and tangible electrochemically measurable thing.
Why is it so hard to believe that we are already teaching our prejudices and preferences to children from birth. As all mammals do! Without speech at all.
@Christopholaes lol i know right dude did you know that your language you speak mostly are from your mother or mother figure you had in your early life it's called humorously "the mother language" it also shows that people whom are bilingual have a bit more of the brain working. i read this in a article like last year i dont know if it has been overturned and replaced.
@SuperSkepticism No, it's still true in a sense. As I understand it, certain parts of the speech centres in your brain seem to function in a faster more efficient way (usually leads to faster problem solving etc.), especially when considering comparative language functions. Like understanding double meanings in jokes, connotations or the nuances of terms/phrases etc. is somewhat heightened. Basically.
Though these were 'truly' bilingual people I might add, completely fluent in a second language.
@darklord220 Reread the comment, my 'anecdote' was merely an example to point out that children are digesting information way before speech. Maybe even at three months. So the idea is, it is known in the field of psychology that controlling for this natural built in imitation factory, we call 'the human brain', is nigh on impossible. That's a fact jack!
Oh, and since I am in the process of ending my second year of a BSc. in Psychology, I DO disagree with you layman's interpretation of the data!
@spawktalk Yes, you said "they gave preference". No other detail, or the studies name? Do u know coming from a psyche student we call that 'intentionally vague language'. As a word so nebulous and vapid in meaning as 'preference' is never used to describe in entirety the complex and intricate dance the subconscious and conscious mind do in order to even make the simplest social decision. So if you give me the original language, and name of this study? Thanks for answering btw, what a good sport!
@spawktalk Oh Ok cool will take a look. Most people don't bother with that so I didn't look, thank you.
But do you see my point about using the word 'preference'. What is preference? How is preference decided, when asked about preference do we tell the truth? Or what the questioner wants to hear?? In psychology these are essential questions a term such as that just does not cover. Also the meaning people outside the field take from the word, is not akin to the meaning psychologists take.
@Christopholaes Okay, straight away in first two paragraphs. It points out that newborns show NO preference, 3 months do. The study was done to find out WHEN this 'preference' on faces began. Obviously they concluded at around three months. The study showed that it obviously has a lot to do with the natural bonding we do to our parents, and naturally preferring those who show similar phenotypical traits. This study is actually spelling out what I was trying to say? It doesn't support you at all?
@Christopholaes Oh right, that's why I said in my video that a likely explanation is that they develop a preference for the characteristics of their care takers. I never said it was their when they were newborns. Of course, that doesn't tell us it's not genetic. Many of our alleles don't come into use forming phenotypes until post-birth. This is why I said it could be either. Maybe you should watch that section of my video again, I think you misunderstood me.
@spawktalk No, but the whole implication of the video was a justification for the idea of 'natural' or 'innate' racism in infants, was it not? Just mentioning quickly that there are other possibilities is hardly being even handed with the facts. The fact that we can see the human mind is 'set up' in such a way as to be a info devouring machine, from birth. Is more than enough explanation for most of their 'inherited' social or cultural traits. Why inject genetic bias without proof?
@Christopholaes Also the kinds of major genetic changes required to actually alter thinking (via chemicals) or brain structure after birth are very rare after about the first 72 hours in humans. You think major developmental brain alterations can occur at three months? Do you know how the brain develops? A basic framework of pure 'function' is laid down. Neuron-pathways develop completely dependent on your own experiences of the world.
Now make major changes at 3 months, you've created a retard.
@spawktalk You really need to reread the study about 3 months olds. It is NOT controlled for the ethnicity of the mother. Hence the effect could well be just difference to familiarity, and not race preference. The study has no way to differentiate the two.
This is very much the problem I have with quite a bit of this. People quote scientific studies, don't know what controls or biases are or how they are relevant, and don't know how to interpret data jump to conclusions and make claims.
@socrates856 I proposed familiarity with their care taker as an explanation in my video. I said that whether or not it was caused by familiarity or genes more directly was unclear. Like I said in my video though, I think either option is "natural" in an important sense of the word.
@spawktalk Sorry but you don't say in your video what the study says. And surely you imply that that 3 year old behavior somehow extends beyond the population group, without even saying why that is the case. So how are you not extrapolating here, from a story you don't even present on what it actually says?
But yes 3 month old have a fear of foreigners. My nieces feared me, even though I'm the same ethnicity. Anybody who deals with babies knows this. But that is NOT the case made here.
Excellent video. My doctor and I talked about how certain races have certain dispositions to illnesses. Oh and this one's for Douchelan: I have a super high IQ so your little bigoted comment was another pile of shit. It's over 2 standard deviations above the mean so I guess you can read this and weep. Bigot.
@HannibalBarca13 What what what? I never said anything about libertarianism. What I said was not difficult to understand. The idea of race denial and a blank slate of human nature can be used to justify egalitarianism premises in political discourse, that is all I claimed. Get that through your brain (or lack thereof) would you?
@HannibalBarca13 No, the Greeks fucked little boys. I'm not going to get off topic and let you control the discussion. I responded to your original question and proved you wrong, that is all.
@HannibalBarca13 I am not avoiding anything, are you stupid? You asked "where is the politics", I said "race denial could be used as a justification for egalitarian policies", my answer was more than sufficient. If you want to discuss the idiocy of the egalitarianism premise, then send me a private message.
@HannibalBarca13 "ok name one, try to give me an example on why scientists would find it an advantage to them to claim that races are the same when they aren't?"
This is discussed in: google. com/search?q=miele+jensen+race+genetics
@HannibalBarca13 Okay, you aren't thinking at alll. Scientists get fucking crucified for putting out racist info. The incentive isn't just there, its gigantic.
@HannibalBarca13 That's a separate discussion. My point was proven, race denial could be used for political purposes (how and why of meritocracy, etc), but don't get the impression I'm saying that it makes it false, its shitty scientific justification does.
@MrHerrIQ2 As scepticalheretic pointed out in his video even the IQ are shifting in US population if one takes IQ seriously as you losers do.
And thanks for showing that it is political in your case you do not give a flying fuck about science. Of all the stupid shit you have said including that Indo-European is a group of races, downvaluing the amount of mixing that have occurd, And in our first encounter you could not even distuingsh what the diffrence beetwen ''race'' and specie is.
I don't know what to say. You're the one making the positive claim that Murray gets his information from mental wards inside of prisons. I'm just saying what's in the book!
Thank you. Its surprising how many people will put their fingers in their ears if evidence shows someone in a negative light. The truth is that scientific fact is racist to some people. Its ludicrous!
@Capnbobisgay No this so called science is nonsense.
What you have in population genetics is frequency variance. And some like the babie experiemnt hade a an incredibly stupid method. So it is funny to see him mentioning it. And also mentioning something as cultural as language... ugh
You 3 year old study is not controlled for the mother's race. I.e. there are no caucasian babies raised by non-caucasian mothers. I.e. there is NO control in the study for this simply being a similarity effect. I.e. people who are superficially similar to the primary care-taker. To say that this shows that 3-year old's are racist is basically misrepresenting what the study can says. That babies form stong association with familiar faces and reject foreign ones is not new. It even hits relatives.
IQ and bone-density are not in the same category. Bone-density is a physical attribute. IQ is a man-made measure, that may well contain substantial biases (of various degrees).
And if there is no exact criteria for race, why use the category, and rather not talk about genotype/phenotype differences.
So how do you draw boundaries. When do you call a person one race or another? Say you take a trip from west africa to Beijing, China. Where are the boundaries? (cont)
@socrates856 "but IQ as an attempt to measure mental ability is man-made."
And? Rulers are man made. Most of the results of a ruler measurement is loaded with the actual height of the subject being measured. Likewise, most of the results of an IQ instrument measurement is loaded with the actual general mental ability (GMA) of the subject being measured.
.
So what was your point? You're going to apply different standards of judgement to these two forms of measurement?
@hitssquad As someone who have done severak IQ tests I have to say that the result vary dependet on circumstans . How tired you are, what individual tests, if they are based on your cultural experience, what place they where taken and what time. It is quite stupid how much scientific racist put inportance in it. And as been pointed out by Scepticalheretic there is change in such messurment in the population. Also ''lower IQ'' people exxeld in civilization in the dark ages when Europeans did not
@Eopyk " the result vary dependet on circumstans . How tired you are"
Has it occurred to you that that might also apply to the subjects the tests were standardized on? Noise in the test results cancels out in large populations. That phenomenon is called the: en. wikipedia. org/wiki/ Law_of_large_numbers
.
"if they are based on your cultural experience"
Whose cultural experience is based on this?: google. com/search?q=raven's+matrices
``...circumstans... how tired you are... cultural experience..."
Yes, and nobody denies this. However, the do deny that culture is the cause of the black/white IQ gaps because blacks do better on the culture-loaded questions than the culture-free questions.
"...there is a change in such messurment...."
This doesn't mean that there isn't a gap, nor does it mean that the gap is not genetic.
@Eopyk Cognitive functioning depends on those things, any accurate test of anything cognitive will be limited by them. This is why you look for large sample sizes. Every heard of social science?
The middle age comment is silly. It isn't true, but even if it was it wouldn't prove anything. IQ was much more severely effected by malnutrition and extreme poverty than it is now. That may alter how societies preform. Further, IQ is not the sole determinant. The comment is false, and a non seq.
@spawktalk P 1 No it is not and it does not take in respect to the alteration of such messurment in whole groups and societies in short periods. In the middle ages who made science who made art ? Who made philosophy ? Europe nope the middle east and north africa. Where did western Eurasian civilizastion emerge ? Who invented the first complex math, irrigation, science, wheel written language etc Greece ? Nope Mesopotamia. Back in those days where northen European a beacon of civlization no.
@Eopyk Are you high? Written language? Philosophy? Art? Irrigation? WTF does that have to do with the dark ages? All three were invented before Greece even existed. There is no comparison. The west made important contributions to math and science. This is absurd.
@spawktalk You missunderstand I meant that first of in the dark ages it was the middle east and north africa that made science. Also that the foundation of our civilization is the middle east in a time where Europe was not even close to there glory.
The point was that intelect/creativity in populance vary in time despite not genes doing so. When Europe hade a dark age the orient did not when the orient has a dark age Europe has not.
P 2 Point is civilization and cultures go up and down. Without genetic change. I think if you did live in Baghdad the year 901 you would have said Europeans where dumb while you did your science and philosophy.
See the false understanding you have ? back when the us Scandinavians hade a cold bronze age Somalia was trading post where even queen Hatshepsut of Egypt went to shop.
No the orient has a dark age , Europe does not that can change in the future who knows.
@hitssquad Yes, but IQ is no ruler. IQ does not have the same property as a ruler, for you need to define "intelligence" and you need to establish that your measurement actually measures grades of that "intelligence". What "intelligence" is is up for modeling/debate.
My point is that one cannot say IQ as if it is bone width. Because for bone width I can give you a measure that is unproblematic. IQ tests are self-fulfilling. They measure what they encode as model.
No, he does not need to define intelligence. IQ tests measure IQ. People that have high IQs (whatever IQs are) generally have higher incomes, higher rates of educational attainment, they are less likely to be convicted criminals, they less likely to have been incarcerated, and so on.
It doesn't matter what IQ is. What matters is that it plays a determining factor in group outcomes in post-industrial society.
@hitssquad Bone width predict social outcomes? Well perhaps. But isn't the whole point of the racism debate that people WANT certain social outcomes hence pick measures that help them argue for those? Hence we don't bicker over bone-widthism. But that would actually have more merit than IQ debates.
@socrates856 "Bone width predict social outcomes?"
...Not very well. IQ is the single best known predictor of social outcome. Since IQ is already the best predictor, bone-width-measurement can't be, and thus IQ is more socially relevant. If you have a problem with scientists employing reliable and accurate predictors of social outcome, then you have a problem with science.
@hitssquad No, IQ is not the best know predictor of social outcome. And IQ hasn't even been shown to be a purely physiological measure, but in fact be heavily influenced by societal/nurture factors. But here we argue phenotype. You first argue that what IQ is doesn't matter now you argue it's a great predictor, yet you fail to actually establish causation etc. How about you actually inform yourself first?
@socrates856 "You first argue that what IQ is doesn't matter"
No. IQ is a measurement of the g factor of human mental ability.
I did say that whatever your term "intelligence" might mean didn't matter to the practical and scientific usefulness of IQ. IQ doesn't necessarily need to have any relationship with arbitrary terms you might choose to throw around, be they "intelligence" or others.
When people have their IQs measured as children, it well predicts not only their IQs as adults, but how successful they will be in society. For example: "Arthur Jensen's 1980 textbook Bias in Mental Testing says (pp344-5): "Almost no professional [...] job has a median IQ below 100. [...] Terman's famous follow-up study of 1,500 school children with IQs of 140 and above (with an average IQ of 152) showed that this group by middle age attained a far higher level
"of occupational status than would have been expected for a random sample of persons of comparable childhood backgrounds or even of college graduates (Terman & Oden, 1959). Among the men in Terman's study, the ten most frequent occupations were lawyers, engineers, college professors, major business managers, financial executives, scientists, physicians, educational administrators, top business executives, and accountants--in that order. Over 85 percent of the men in the Terman group were
IQ also (negatively) predicts negative social outcome, such as: Out of labor force more than 1 month out of year (men); Divorced in 5 years; Had an illegitimate baby (mothers); Lives in poverty; Ever incarcerated (men); Chronic welfare recipient (mothers); High school dropout.
@hitssquad Sources? Funny! Given that you have been spewing uninformed drivel so far. How's this: You give me _one_ peer-reviewed source that claims credibly that "IQ is the single best known predictor of social outcome." and I'll bother collecting two peer-reviewed sources that indicate that IQ is not. Fair?
Oh and Family adoptions? Failed? By whose measure? Yours?
psychology. uwo. ca/faculty/rushtonpdfs/2010%20Review%20of%20Nisbett. pdf "a test’s g loading is the best predictor, not just of that test’s correlation with scholastic and work-place performance, but of biological measures such as heritability coefficients determined from twin studies, inbreeding depression scores calculated in children of cousin-marriages, brain evoked potentials, brain pH levels, brain glucose metabolism, as well as nerve conduction velocity and reaction
Yes. The Minnesota twin and trans-racial adoption studies established that adoption into different families does not affect the adult IQs of twins, and does nothing to close the racial IQ gap. See the above paper from 2010 as well as the 2005 paper "Thirty years of research on race differences in cognitive ability", linked from here: psychology. uwo. ca/faculty/rushton_pubs. htm
@hitssquad Oh geez. Well I guess we better stop adopting now, because IQ outcomes is all that matters for adoption! So yes, your measure of failure is idiotic basically. How about you cite people who disagree with Rushton and Jensen to get a more rounded few of things? For example Lisa Suzuki, Joshua Aronson, The Cultural Malleability of Intelligence and Its Impact on the Racial/Ethnic Hierarchy, Psychology, Public Policy, and Law, Volume 11, Issue 2, June 2005.
@hitssquad Er, so you cite their response as argument from others? Sorry, that's at best intellectually lazy. Yes you cited their reaction to Nisbett. No surprise what their position is.
@socrates856 "you cite their response as argument from others?"
No. I said they quote him extensively. You can read his words in their paper, and you can also go read his paper wherein you will be able to read the exact same words.
@hitssquad Check: Fryer R., Levitt S. D. “Testing for Racial Differences in the Skills of Young Children.” American Economic Review. Retrieved August 14, 2009
Quote: "Utilizing a newly available, nationally representative data set with
measures of mental function among children before their first birthday, we find little
evidence of systematic racial differences in the first year of life."
@socrates856 "we find little evidence of systematic racial differences in the first year of life.""
Blacks develop faster than whites, increasing the black-white IQ gap as children age toward adulthood. IQ testing is relatively unreliable in the first year of life. In other words, whites take longer to reach adulthood, but when they get there they end up with higher IQs on average.
@socrates856 Bone density is measured in inches. Inches are a man made measure. The two are very comparable.
Ugh. Most predicates and universal referents don't have exact criteria. Chair, Book, Wall, ect. None of them have exact criteria. They are all fuzzy on the edges. We use them because they are none the less incredibly useful.
78. See the Rushton&Jenson paper linked from this VDare article by Rushton: vdare. com/rushton/100125_nisbett. htm "Jensen and I have provided a long point-counterpoint review of Nisbett’s book in The Open Psychology Journal. [Race and IQ: A Theory-Based Review of the Research in Richard Nisbett’s Intelligence and How to Get It(PDF)]"
.Eyferth (1961) studied the out-of-wedlock children of black and white soldiers stationed in Germany after World War 2 and then raised by white German mothers and found no significant differences. Nisbett writes that Flynn has argued that the army testing could not have produced more than a 3 IQ point advantage for the African Americans soldiers compared to the general African Americans population and that the North Africans would change the results only by a small amount.
Moore (compared black and mixed-race children adopted by either black or white middle-class families in the US. There was no difference in IQ between black and mixed-race children, whether raised by black or white families. Moore also observed that 23 black and interracial children raised by white parents had a significantly higher mean score than 23 age-matched children raised by black parents (117 vs 104), and argued that differences in early socialization explained these differences
And I later went on wikipedia to find this statement.
"Nisbett has criticized the study for a number of weaknesses that are acknowledged by the authors.Rushton and Jensen have criticized this and argued for the significance of this study.Three other studies found opposing evidence with none finding higher intelligence in white children than in black children."
@SuicidalKiller4life Nissbet's arguments are pretty weak. You didn't actually use them, you just referenced them, so im not going to take the time to respond to them. You also failed to mention that all 3 studies have been crtizised by Rushton and Jensen, which is in the same wiki article. I think that's pretty dishonest. Two important criticisms are that such studies often have small sample size, and are looking at young children. The .8 heretability of IQ doesn't take place until people are
@spawktalk "The .8 heretability of IQ doesn't take place until people are pretty old, so the results are actually to be expected."
Yes. It's well known that the heritability of IQ rises with age. Part of this stems from the fact that different people age at different rates, skewing the results which are then inevitably comparisons of "same age" children who are not actually the "same" biological age. However, as those children become adults, they gradually become in actuality the same bio age.
all those are easily demolished if you take in mind the evolution of brain during the mature lifetime.
a taxi driver's hippocampus is much bigger than ordinary peoples, evidence that the complex tasks in the work environment can lead to an evolution of brain's size , an increase of neurons connections, and therefor a higher capacity in complex thinking(and IQ).
So sociological creationist SkepticalHeretic could claim that social discrimination reduces social mobility/opportunities...
@AmetReloads ....,that reduce the exposure to complex specialized work-tasks .
He could also claim lower investment rate on education, reduces their access to qualifications for jobs that necessitate complex task solving(that stimulate similar 'growth' in brain comblexity), so majority of african americans retain an "embryonic" "normal" IQ level, and therefor the avarage IQ of A/As is lower that "european-americans".
He could claim all those, but i doubt it since he has the iq of a potato.
@AmetReloads Neuro-placticty does not counter anything. The heritability of IQ has been tested many times. Once one is old enough it rests at about .8. Your objection would be a good one were it not for the fact that it's already been tested for and dis-proven.
@NeonPenDragon Nope. In fact diffrence beetwen populance is very small. people have never stayed in oen area and have always intermixed. What you have geneticly is frequency variance. And Spawk uses some pretty worng arguments here. Using language... that can change no matter genes and is not bound to genes. Most European languages descent from Proto-Indo-European and it was spoken only about 6000 years ago..
It eventualy replaced most other languages in Europe, Persia, and India.
Well there are many ways to combat the 'race does not exist' crowd.... I'll start with this one.
Explain to me why doctors take race into account when they treat somebody?
Explain to me why drugs are put out that are specifically designed for certain races?
The fact that different races react differently to different foods/medicines/treaments explains perfectly how nonsensical the statement 'race does not exist' is.
@NeonPenDragon A doctor must take respect to an individuals genetic problems. Just like some Swedes are alergic to apples others are not.
How ever this does not prove ''race'' Let me ask is a man and another man who are cousins who have diffrent halpogroups diffrent races ? Was hitler not European despite his Y chromosone halpogroup have higher variance in Somalia than Germany overall.
@NeonPenDragon The fact that they overlapp and the fact that genes overlapp in frequencies disproves clear cut race because it makes it from a genetic point of view subjective to what you wish to define it as.
What is worng it saying that there is soley frquency variance in variation within populations ? Nothing.
If race has no value it is soley in population genetics.
@Eopyk You are aware replacing the word race with population is just a cheap dodge to keep morons like you from throwing a tantrum and burning down a laboratory or three right?
@AsymmetricalWarfare Nope I am just doing science. Real population genetics. Where so called race is seen as a flawed classification , cloudy and dubios.
Population can have a varied ancestry and it often has. I am here to defend population genetics from racists fucks who still live 1800 national romantisim. HannibalBarca13 who is here commentating is a antropologist and archeologist he also says like me that race is an invalid classification.
@Eopyk 'real population genetics' means the studies that you agree with in this case. you are such a dishonest cunt. sure race doesn't have an essentialist definition, but it doesn't have to be meaningful, useful, or valid.
@darklord220 No not really. How is simply stating how gene frequency is spread out doing that ? If I talk about a certain genes frequencies in populations we see that it most often crossovers to the level that shows what you have is frequency in variance. Race is from a genetic point of view becomes subjective.
You have to prove that race in humanities case is a valid classification. I say it makes more sense speaking about neutral populance and gene frequencies in variance.
@Eopyk don't you understand that many things have that kind of semi-ambiguity, yet people treat them as objective, at least in an epistemic sense (when exactly is a group of trees, a forest?) Race is a valid classification because the subjective social reality of it refers to actual, biological realities like genetic clusters.
@darklord220 Your refering it to gene clustering is pretty wishy washy and subejctive classification. But it cannot be used in population genetic classification there we already more realible ones. Like various halpogroups. That are pften varied in each smaller or broader populance.
Subjective social reality often more concerns cultural ethnic groups and linguistic groups.
@Eopyk A social reality is ontologically subjective but epistemologically objective. People don't ascribe race to some non-reality that is 'subjective' and not capable of measurement or knowing. Just because the ontology of a phenomena is experienced subjectively does not mean it is somehow not real or meaningless. Language is contingent upon society, yet functionally, people treat words as meaningful, 'objective' in a loose sense, and valid.
@darklord220 How ever ethnic groups can be considerd and considerd themselves not on genetic basis but rather on cultural and linguistic basis. Western Turks and eastern Greeks are almost the same geneticly more or less. The main diffrence is that they speak languages of two completly diffrent families and diffrent religions and identities.
@Eopyk tsk tsk tsk are you still trying to argue that everything isn't constantly on fire? Throughout history there have been lightning strikes, volcanic eruptions, cigarette butts, etc.
@DanMickie Complete unrelated to population genetics. The point is that all you got is small frquency variance why because people have always migrated and intermarried, culturaly assimilated and invaded and traded and have several genetic contact. Genes here do not lie.
And still considerd the comment you responded too.. Language is a dumb way to do classifications on.
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rightwingHateSpeech 2 weeks ago
If genes factor into what we call race then it does have definitional power. By virtue of that fact, races are defined by genetic information and must therefore have the same cutoff points one would see amongst different animals.
Not surprised by the infant example, an infant would seek any person that most resembled its parents.
lookit87 1 month ago
Toddlers are "racists" because they are predisposed to playing with children who look like them. Yeah, no. It's stupid to cite the psychological attractiveness of being surrounded by people who look like you. Toddlers being "racist" says more about the trials of multiracial societies which may /may not be overcome or be redeemable(racism certainly doesn't help) than with definitional knowledge articulated through genetic information. Yes, meeting different-looking people challenges us.(cont'd)
lookit87 1 month ago
Let me get your "I would hang out with a black guy, but that does not make me … I have a preference for my own race, and so … in my view it is natural" argument straight.
You're saying that every single time you find yourself in a situation where you're interacting/socializing with a black person, the idea that "I'd rather be doing this with a white guy, but oh well" flits through your head?
If I'm right, then I and most reasonable people can assure you that THIS IS NOT AT ALL NATURAL.
Gsazraetr 1 month ago
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Gsazraetr 1 month ago
racist sophistry disguised as facts, nothing more... stopped watching the video after the first 2 minutes
OrionWharf 5 months ago
@spawktalk, you are neglecting the fact that exposure to heavy metal and rap music causes genetic regression by instilling hate, evil, and depression into listeners. This, in turn, will cause people to become hateful, evil, and generally unmotivated, resulting in poor life choices and low income. These attributes will be passed on to offspring throughout the course of their upbringing. It makes a good case to listen to fun, up-beat music by artists like The Jonas Brothers and Miley Cyrus!
BieberBabyBopper 5 months ago
@BieberBabyBopper LMFAO why the hell are you going around other peoples videos and saying their evil, Up beat music like the Jonas Brothers, The Jonas Brothers SUCK so does Bieber, if your gonna annoy people like that then just get off the internet and by the way i would Listen To MTV2 Headbanger's Ball instead of that disney shit, go to hell motherfucker
TormentedBrutality 5 months ago
It must be all that neanderthal and other sub human DNA that has resulted in Europeans having lower IQs. That still wouldn't justify violence against them. Rape, pillage, in the name of superiority.
initiateit 6 months ago
When did you get back into beating up retards?
Sepero1 6 months ago
A good rule of thumb is the more level-headed and detached your information source is, the more likely they are speaking the truth and not defending a dogma.
Breaking people of their programming is much like the deprogramming a cult member -- they get violent and do what I call "the screeching monkey".
One wonders how much violence in history can be attributed to defense of dogma.
mindprism 6 months ago
Yada yada, splicing hair. The point is simple, HeyRuka made a hasty clumsy unsupported presentation of her case, she did not draw the line that would separate her from herp derp pro-violence nationalists on her comment section, and she could not put more than 40 words in a minute, because even her mind is not wrapped around what she says. You can spend many nights on Powerpoint, but you can't make her video a good presentation. I guess it has to do with Racism being crap in general. Bollocks vid
ONESPECIES 6 months ago
@ONESPECIES
I really loved that comment, especially the last two sentences
SecularNumanist 6 months ago
@SecularNumanist I am glad you did. However I meant all of it, not just the 2 sentences. Do not forget that. Did you revive Fringe or is he still unconscious were Skep left him after moping the floor with his face? Now its time for Prediction, as Fringe does it. I predict that from this comment, you will like the previous 2 sentences. Magic!
ONESPECIES 6 months ago
@SecularNumanist MIDDLE GROUND. MUAHAHAHAHA
darklord220 6 months ago
@ONESPECIES
Why should she have to qualify herself as such? Does every leftist have to repudiate communism and other strains of egalitarian thought before making a video about the topic?
Fuck off leftard.
addendum044 6 months ago
@addendum044 No Rightard, but every leftist that attracts fanatic communists and anarchic terrorists on their comment section, DOES HAVE TO draw the line that separates him from them. Its like saying leaving your left overs on the table overnight is not inviting to cockroaches. Too hard for you? Here, simple, If I claim I am for a voluntary movement but most of my fans comment in favor of a forced movement, my sayings are VAGUE and inviting. Get it? Brilliant. Oh, I am not lefty. Just human.
ONESPECIES 6 months ago
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@ONESPECIES
Yeah, that's the thing though, racial realists aren't 'fanatics'. Wanting to maintain Europe as a White majority continent is not 'fanaticism'.
>Here, simple, If I claim I am for a voluntary movement but most of my fans comment in favor of a forced movement, my sayings are VAGUE and inviting.
Sounds like a rather vague approximation, rather... inquisitorial almost.
addendum044 6 months ago
Transcribe "the racial differences are genetic rather than environmental in cause"
Except genetics are an expression of environment, thus expressed genes
The environmental and genetic expression go hand in glove
RevDevilin 6 months ago
there are a bundle of predispositions to phenotypical attributes which are caused by an evolutionary lineage, some such bundles we call race"
which genetic bundle?
"the IQ differences are international averages, so localised results should not be put forth as an explanation"
yes we should just accept your claim that particular races are destined for a particular IQ gap, and ignore evidence that shows this is false.
scottpastry 6 months ago
@achzdck so your saying they did not have that much time? lol also dude if people did not build them then who?please tell me.
SuperSkepticism 6 months ago
@achzdck now on to the starving lol i think everywhere i mean in america we got a nice chunk of people who starve. along with parts of asia especially india not only african nations also the pyramids are easily explainable i mean dude we see the intermediate steps by way of hyroglyphics and the pyramids that came before the ones in gyza they had an awesome knowledge of mathematics and geometry this is so available to anyone who wants to know it try reading a book,or going to college maybe.
SuperSkepticism 6 months ago
@achzdck so humans did not build the pyramids? then who? also refrencing the blacks of america is not a reflection of africa and it's rich history. now on to the invention do you know who invented the stop light or the air force pilot helmet original design which we use till this day? black men sir lol. also note that it is quite common for all low class people in america to have kids and reap the social program bennifets.
SuperSkepticism 6 months ago
@HannibalBarca13 At least he doesn't reminisce about boy-fucking.
BloodBoner 6 months ago 8
@BloodBoner LOL!
Tsicar 6 months ago
@achzdck really so the first languages spoken and written were not in the motherland? also the oldest model of a harp we have is not from the motherland? also some of the first gods ever imagined did not come from the motherland? also the moors of north africa did not give a lot of the knowledge that was built upon by the europeans to the arabs and mediteranian peoples?lol sorry you need to face the truth white is not equal to superior nor is any other ethnic label.
SuperSkepticism 6 months ago
I would just like to put out that your example of "5-7 year olds having clear ideas of whites being better than blacks.." is a bad one. In that 5-7 are at about the exact age that children begin, or have already been digesting & repeating the ideas of their parents. At this age I myself had been speaking full distinct sentences for 2-2.5 years. Would I have not already begun imitation, which is constant? I suggest u look at studies of babies. Also child psychology. It seems to disagree a little.
Christopholaes 6 months ago
@Christopholaes Mind you, I'm not saying I totally disagree with what your saying. Just that I think there is a little more to the seeming preference of children to the same 'race' as your parentage. For instance, ideas like the built in understanding of many non-verbal cues. Meaning that children are learning preference in social situations before they are even able to speak. Whereby through body language our parents are already subconsciously showing us in whose company they prefer to be.
Christopholaes 6 months ago
@Christopholaes No, your anecdote seems to disagree a little, and no one gives a shit about your personal experiences.
darklord220 6 months ago
@darklord220 this is more than personal experience this is a legitimate objection racism is innate,but how it is expressed is obviously learned i would'nt know wtf a cracka was until someone told me come on now your attempting to shut up anyone which you disagree with.
SuperSkepticism 6 months ago
@SuperSkepticism Thank you!
Christopholaes 6 months ago
@Christopholaes our welcome we stand on different sides of this issue,but i do not like people trying to silence those with good points. also i have looked into this it is pretty clear kids even as babies get social cues from their parents so keep nothing,but whites around they communicate "oh that's good" same thing with black and any other they pick it up like we all do which is innate because we see it in the psyche already there,but culture mostly defines how it is expressed.
SuperSkepticism 6 months ago
@SuperSkepticism Not sure I totally follow what you mean there? Though i would agree culture is what defines how racism or other such traits are expressed in most cases.
But if your suggesting racism is 'innate' or 'natural' just because we cannot prevent our brains from digesting the lessons they are constantly teaching us, through our imitation. Then I disagree. This is taught or passed on behaviour by definition. If your parents were not taught you, would not have learned it. Not natural.
Christopholaes 6 months ago
@Christopholaes oh i was really talking about the adaptive taught trait of xenophobia which spawns racism which is great for promotion of your genetic material although ethnic groups have less diversity within then out we see this in genetic study like how we all seem to overlap so i would like to call this a "evolutionary hickup" something we adapted was useful,but is actually retarded and now with our current knowledge is pretty worthless.
SuperSkepticism 6 months ago
@SuperSkepticism Yes, i often have to explain to people just because it's in our genotype to be aggressive territorial megalomaniacs, does not mean it is necessarily 'natural' or 'right' to do so. That also we have a 'naturally' powerful, and analytical, supercomputer sitting between our ears that allows us a lot more cognition of even everyday functions of the brain. Meaning we have a lot more choice in what we do and how we rationalise these actions than our mammal cousins.
Christopholaes 6 months ago
@Christopholaes i could see that then again i dont care for the implications of this society breaks down and it's brownies vs. whites oh well we are tribal might as well go with the great ape flow right? lol then again iam a bit of a moral nihilist just i ring in on issue that concern me because they sometime spread misinformation which is what i do value truth no matter who it does or does not hurt truth is important period.also you would call the human brain a super computer? really?
SuperSkepticism 6 months ago
@SuperSkepticism Well yeah, in fact based on size and computational power the brain is still vastly more powerful than the worlds leading 20 supercomputers running simultaneously on the same problem.
Only problem is there's no DOS prompt in the brain, you cannot command it to do anything. It just reacts. You spew out the reaction. So that's why we cannot do to the calculations that go into the multiples of ten to the power of ten etc. It's not directed & most calculation happens subconsciously.
Christopholaes 6 months ago
@SuperSkepticism Yeah, interesting thing about this whole 'black vs. 'white' hypothesis. It's IS all based on the more superficial or obvious cultural traits rather than the genetic. As it is quite easy to show a greater genetic disparity between certain European 'white' races, than there can be between the darker 'races'. If we were to take the genetics as a cue for racism, I should hate the Dutch, Swedish and Eastern Europeans they have just as much if not more difference in genetics?
Christopholaes 6 months ago
@Christopholaes iam fully aware of this,but in america it seems like the most likely tihng to occur and i just say this if it comes to pass my closest friends might end up dead. now for races i think it is silly to call these races like oh im african american one black race then the ethiopians is another black race when we have a nice amount of genetic similarity same thing with the whites i say this is too hard and goofy. classifying races is just too hard and is unnecessary.
SuperSkepticism 6 months ago
@SuperSkepticism Oh yeah, I understand what you mean. This is a sad truth.
Not sure about the second part. As I'm kinda suggesting this is why genetically speaking the characteristics we pick for in day to day society that delineate 'race'. Are defunct. They don't work at all. As i'm suggesting the differences between some 'white' looking races are greater than some of the differences between the anglo/gauls and say the Spanish or Turkish. English really have different genetics to french etc.
Christopholaes 6 months ago
@Christopholaes Let's also not forget for hundreds of years nearly all the nations of Europe were also considered in most circumstances to be different 'races' till quite recently. It helped they had discovered a few continents with other humans with many distinct phenotypes, many distinct in a common obvious superficial way. Being that of darker skin.
Darker skin also being a well recognised adaptive trait born from the environment one resides in. See how the common definition just fails.
Christopholaes 6 months ago
@SuperSkepticism Just as an aside. Been learning a lot about his stuff lately. I find it funny in today's day and age when sayings or adages like (though not totally accurate) 90% of communication is body language. Or the common knowledge that the bond between a mother and a child is a real and tangible electrochemically measurable thing.
Why is it so hard to believe that we are already teaching our prejudices and preferences to children from birth. As all mammals do! Without speech at all.
Christopholaes 6 months ago
@Christopholaes lol i know right dude did you know that your language you speak mostly are from your mother or mother figure you had in your early life it's called humorously "the mother language" it also shows that people whom are bilingual have a bit more of the brain working. i read this in a article like last year i dont know if it has been overturned and replaced.
SuperSkepticism 6 months ago
@SuperSkepticism No, it's still true in a sense. As I understand it, certain parts of the speech centres in your brain seem to function in a faster more efficient way (usually leads to faster problem solving etc.), especially when considering comparative language functions. Like understanding double meanings in jokes, connotations or the nuances of terms/phrases etc. is somewhat heightened. Basically.
Though these were 'truly' bilingual people I might add, completely fluent in a second language.
Christopholaes 6 months ago
@darklord220 Reread the comment, my 'anecdote' was merely an example to point out that children are digesting information way before speech. Maybe even at three months. So the idea is, it is known in the field of psychology that controlling for this natural built in imitation factory, we call 'the human brain', is nigh on impossible. That's a fact jack!
Oh, and since I am in the process of ending my second year of a BSc. in Psychology, I DO disagree with you layman's interpretation of the data!
Christopholaes 6 months ago
@Christopholaes I realize this, that is why I followed it with a study about .... 3 month olds.
spawktalk 6 months ago
@spawktalk Yes, you said "they gave preference". No other detail, or the studies name? Do u know coming from a psyche student we call that 'intentionally vague language'. As a word so nebulous and vapid in meaning as 'preference' is never used to describe in entirety the complex and intricate dance the subconscious and conscious mind do in order to even make the simplest social decision. So if you give me the original language, and name of this study? Thanks for answering btw, what a good sport!
Christopholaes 6 months ago
@Christopholaes Or sure, I have had it linked in the description since I posted the video actually.
spawktalk 6 months ago
@spawktalk Oh Ok cool will take a look. Most people don't bother with that so I didn't look, thank you.
But do you see my point about using the word 'preference'. What is preference? How is preference decided, when asked about preference do we tell the truth? Or what the questioner wants to hear?? In psychology these are essential questions a term such as that just does not cover. Also the meaning people outside the field take from the word, is not akin to the meaning psychologists take.
Christopholaes 6 months ago
@Christopholaes Okay, straight away in first two paragraphs. It points out that newborns show NO preference, 3 months do. The study was done to find out WHEN this 'preference' on faces began. Obviously they concluded at around three months. The study showed that it obviously has a lot to do with the natural bonding we do to our parents, and naturally preferring those who show similar phenotypical traits. This study is actually spelling out what I was trying to say? It doesn't support you at all?
Christopholaes 6 months ago
@Christopholaes Now I have to ask. Did you even read the article or just the headline at the top?
Christopholaes 6 months ago
@Christopholaes Sorry, last one bit confrontational didn't mean to come off like that. Was just my immediate reaction..
Christopholaes 6 months ago
@Christopholaes Oh right, that's why I said in my video that a likely explanation is that they develop a preference for the characteristics of their care takers. I never said it was their when they were newborns. Of course, that doesn't tell us it's not genetic. Many of our alleles don't come into use forming phenotypes until post-birth. This is why I said it could be either. Maybe you should watch that section of my video again, I think you misunderstood me.
spawktalk 6 months ago
@spawktalk No, but the whole implication of the video was a justification for the idea of 'natural' or 'innate' racism in infants, was it not? Just mentioning quickly that there are other possibilities is hardly being even handed with the facts. The fact that we can see the human mind is 'set up' in such a way as to be a info devouring machine, from birth. Is more than enough explanation for most of their 'inherited' social or cultural traits. Why inject genetic bias without proof?
Christopholaes 6 months ago
@Christopholaes Also the kinds of major genetic changes required to actually alter thinking (via chemicals) or brain structure after birth are very rare after about the first 72 hours in humans. You think major developmental brain alterations can occur at three months? Do you know how the brain develops? A basic framework of pure 'function' is laid down. Neuron-pathways develop completely dependent on your own experiences of the world.
Now make major changes at 3 months, you've created a retard.
Christopholaes 6 months ago
@spawktalk You really need to reread the study about 3 months olds. It is NOT controlled for the ethnicity of the mother. Hence the effect could well be just difference to familiarity, and not race preference. The study has no way to differentiate the two.
This is very much the problem I have with quite a bit of this. People quote scientific studies, don't know what controls or biases are or how they are relevant, and don't know how to interpret data jump to conclusions and make claims.
socrates856 6 months ago
@socrates856 I proposed familiarity with their care taker as an explanation in my video. I said that whether or not it was caused by familiarity or genes more directly was unclear. Like I said in my video though, I think either option is "natural" in an important sense of the word.
spawktalk 6 months ago 4
@spawktalk Sorry but you don't say in your video what the study says. And surely you imply that that 3 year old behavior somehow extends beyond the population group, without even saying why that is the case. So how are you not extrapolating here, from a story you don't even present on what it actually says?
But yes 3 month old have a fear of foreigners. My nieces feared me, even though I'm the same ethnicity. Anybody who deals with babies knows this. But that is NOT the case made here.
socrates856 6 months ago
@spawktalk great video, skepticlelunatic's video was rediculous
topherh33 5 months ago
Excellent video. My doctor and I talked about how certain races have certain dispositions to illnesses. Oh and this one's for Douchelan: I have a super high IQ so your little bigoted comment was another pile of shit. It's over 2 standard deviations above the mean so I guess you can read this and weep. Bigot.
GirlonFilm1969 6 months ago
@HannibalBarca13 Lulz.
darklord220 6 months ago
@HannibalBarca13 Yeah, you're talking to yourself. twit
darklord220 6 months ago
@HannibalBarca13 You are arguing against a person that doesn't exist at this point.
darklord220 6 months ago
@HannibalBarca13 What what what? I never said anything about libertarianism. What I said was not difficult to understand. The idea of race denial and a blank slate of human nature can be used to justify egalitarianism premises in political discourse, that is all I claimed. Get that through your brain (or lack thereof) would you?
darklord220 6 months ago
@HannibalBarca13 No, the Greeks fucked little boys. I'm not going to get off topic and let you control the discussion. I responded to your original question and proved you wrong, that is all.
darklord220 6 months ago
@HannibalBarca13 That culture also permitted the widespread practice of fucking little boys, you a fan of that too? I bet!
darklord220 6 months ago
@HannibalBarca13 I am not avoiding anything, are you stupid? You asked "where is the politics", I said "race denial could be used as a justification for egalitarian policies", my answer was more than sufficient. If you want to discuss the idiocy of the egalitarianism premise, then send me a private message.
darklord220 6 months ago
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@HannibalBarca13 "ok name one, try to give me an example on why scientists would find it an advantage to them to claim that races are the same when they aren't?"
This is discussed in: google. com/search?q=miele+jensen+race+genetics
hitssquad 6 months ago
@HannibalBarca13 Okay, you aren't thinking at alll. Scientists get fucking crucified for putting out racist info. The incentive isn't just there, its gigantic.
spawktalk 6 months ago
@HannibalBarca13 That's a separate discussion. My point was proven, race denial could be used for political purposes (how and why of meritocracy, etc), but don't get the impression I'm saying that it makes it false, its shitty scientific justification does.
darklord220 6 months ago
@HannibalBarca13 Egalitarianism is a political end that could be justified through scientific endeavor. I thought it was pretty obvious.
darklord220 6 months ago
nice closing statements, lol
MirageScience 6 months ago
@HannibalBarca13 Right, like there is totally no political incentive for race denial...RIGHT
darklord220 6 months ago 2
@MrHerrIQ2 As scepticalheretic pointed out in his video even the IQ are shifting in US population if one takes IQ seriously as you losers do.
And thanks for showing that it is political in your case you do not give a flying fuck about science. Of all the stupid shit you have said including that Indo-European is a group of races, downvaluing the amount of mixing that have occurd, And in our first encounter you could not even distuingsh what the diffrence beetwen ''race'' and specie is.
Eopyk 6 months ago
@HannibalBarca13
I don't know what to say. You're the one making the positive claim that Murray gets his information from mental wards inside of prisons. I'm just saying what's in the book!
ReadSICP 6 months ago 5
3:50 on toddlers playing with toddlers of a different race. They'll also play with members of a different species too.
AsymmetricalWarfare 6 months ago
@HannibalBarca13
You already asked me? Look at Murray's research! It doesn't come from mental hospitals. If it did it would have been quickly dismissed long ago.
Do you think Murray wants to believe that there are racial gaps in intelligence? I don't think anybody wants to believe that.
ReadSICP 6 months ago
2:39 Do you think TheSkepticalHeritic is biased because he is himself a retard?
AsymmetricalWarfare 6 months ago
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@HannibalBarca13 "you do realize that Charles Murray is a quack don't you, his evidence came from Prisons and from people that were mentally ill"
Are you sure you aren't thinking of Alfred Kinsey? What part of The Bell Curve's data "came from Prisons and from people that were mentally ill"?
hitssquad 6 months ago
@HannibalBarca13
His evidence didn't come from prisons. His evidence came from the NLSY (of which, some participants became incarcerated and were still surveyed).
You're a liar or very stupid.
ReadSICP 6 months ago
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ReadSICP 6 months ago
Thank you. Its surprising how many people will put their fingers in their ears if evidence shows someone in a negative light. The truth is that scientific fact is racist to some people. Its ludicrous!
Capnbobisgay 6 months ago
@Capnbobisgay No this so called science is nonsense.
What you have in population genetics is frequency variance. And some like the babie experiemnt hade a an incredibly stupid method. So it is funny to see him mentioning it. And also mentioning something as cultural as language... ugh
Eopyk 6 months ago
"the difference between retards and normal people"
sorry i just burst out laughing at that point. im too immature for this discussion. just have a thumbs up, lemme take a breather and get a cup of tea
SecularNumanist 6 months ago
You 3 year old study is not controlled for the mother's race. I.e. there are no caucasian babies raised by non-caucasian mothers. I.e. there is NO control in the study for this simply being a similarity effect. I.e. people who are superficially similar to the primary care-taker. To say that this shows that 3-year old's are racist is basically misrepresenting what the study can says. That babies form stong association with familiar faces and reject foreign ones is not new. It even hits relatives.
socrates856 6 months ago
IQ and bone-density are not in the same category. Bone-density is a physical attribute. IQ is a man-made measure, that may well contain substantial biases (of various degrees).
And if there is no exact criteria for race, why use the category, and rather not talk about genotype/phenotype differences.
So how do you draw boundaries. When do you call a person one race or another? Say you take a trip from west africa to Beijing, China. Where are the boundaries? (cont)
socrates856 6 months ago
@socrates856 "IQ is a man-made measure"
General mental ability is not man-made. It is a latent property of every normal living animal brain.
hitssquad 6 months ago
@hitssquad Yes, but IQ as an attempt to measure mental ability is man-made.
socrates856 6 months ago
@socrates856 "but IQ as an attempt to measure mental ability is man-made."
And? Rulers are man made. Most of the results of a ruler measurement is loaded with the actual height of the subject being measured. Likewise, most of the results of an IQ instrument measurement is loaded with the actual general mental ability (GMA) of the subject being measured.
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So what was your point? You're going to apply different standards of judgement to these two forms of measurement?
hitssquad 6 months ago
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@socrates856 en. wikipedia. org/wiki/Double_standard
hitssquad 6 months ago
@hitssquad As someone who have done severak IQ tests I have to say that the result vary dependet on circumstans . How tired you are, what individual tests, if they are based on your cultural experience, what place they where taken and what time. It is quite stupid how much scientific racist put inportance in it. And as been pointed out by Scepticalheretic there is change in such messurment in the population. Also ''lower IQ'' people exxeld in civilization in the dark ages when Europeans did not
Eopyk 6 months ago
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@Eopyk " the result vary dependet on circumstans . How tired you are"
Has it occurred to you that that might also apply to the subjects the tests were standardized on? Noise in the test results cancels out in large populations. That phenomenon is called the: en. wikipedia. org/wiki/ Law_of_large_numbers
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"if they are based on your cultural experience"
Whose cultural experience is based on this?: google. com/search?q=raven's+matrices
hitssquad 6 months ago
@Eopyk
``...circumstans... how tired you are... cultural experience..."
Yes, and nobody denies this. However, the do deny that culture is the cause of the black/white IQ gaps because blacks do better on the culture-loaded questions than the culture-free questions.
"...there is a change in such messurment...."
This doesn't mean that there isn't a gap, nor does it mean that the gap is not genetic.
"lower IQ people exxeld in... ..the dark ages"
Yes, but IQ was not as important then.
ReadSICP 6 months ago 2
@Eopyk Cognitive functioning depends on those things, any accurate test of anything cognitive will be limited by them. This is why you look for large sample sizes. Every heard of social science?
The middle age comment is silly. It isn't true, but even if it was it wouldn't prove anything. IQ was much more severely effected by malnutrition and extreme poverty than it is now. That may alter how societies preform. Further, IQ is not the sole determinant. The comment is false, and a non seq.
spawktalk 6 months ago 2
@spawktalk P 1 No it is not and it does not take in respect to the alteration of such messurment in whole groups and societies in short periods. In the middle ages who made science who made art ? Who made philosophy ? Europe nope the middle east and north africa. Where did western Eurasian civilizastion emerge ? Who invented the first complex math, irrigation, science, wheel written language etc Greece ? Nope Mesopotamia. Back in those days where northen European a beacon of civlization no.
Eopyk 6 months ago
@Eopyk Are you high? Written language? Philosophy? Art? Irrigation? WTF does that have to do with the dark ages? All three were invented before Greece even existed. There is no comparison. The west made important contributions to math and science. This is absurd.
spawktalk 6 months ago
@spawktalk You missunderstand I meant that first of in the dark ages it was the middle east and north africa that made science. Also that the foundation of our civilization is the middle east in a time where Europe was not even close to there glory.
The point was that intelect/creativity in populance vary in time despite not genes doing so. When Europe hade a dark age the orient did not when the orient has a dark age Europe has not.
This is what I am saying
Eopyk 6 months ago
P 2 Point is civilization and cultures go up and down. Without genetic change. I think if you did live in Baghdad the year 901 you would have said Europeans where dumb while you did your science and philosophy.
See the false understanding you have ? back when the us Scandinavians hade a cold bronze age Somalia was trading post where even queen Hatshepsut of Egypt went to shop.
No the orient has a dark age , Europe does not that can change in the future who knows.
Eopyk 6 months ago
@hitssquad Yes, but IQ is no ruler. IQ does not have the same property as a ruler, for you need to define "intelligence" and you need to establish that your measurement actually measures grades of that "intelligence". What "intelligence" is is up for modeling/debate.
My point is that one cannot say IQ as if it is bone width. Because for bone width I can give you a measure that is unproblematic. IQ tests are self-fulfilling. They measure what they encode as model.
socrates856 6 months ago
@socrates856
No, he does not need to define intelligence. IQ tests measure IQ. People that have high IQs (whatever IQs are) generally have higher incomes, higher rates of educational attainment, they are less likely to be convicted criminals, they less likely to have been incarcerated, and so on.
It doesn't matter what IQ is. What matters is that it plays a determining factor in group outcomes in post-industrial society.
ReadSICP 6 months ago 2
@ReadSICP That's a different topic though. Bone width might well also determine your income level, come to think of it and straightness of hair.
socrates856 6 months ago
@socrates856
How is it a different topic?
ReadSICP 6 months ago
@socrates856 "you need to define "intelligence" and you need to establish that your measurement actually measures grades of that "intelligence"."
Why would you need to do that, in order for the results of an IQ test to be predictive of social outcome?
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"What "intelligence" is is up for modeling/debate."
And? What would that have to do with the practical validity of IQ tests?
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"for bone width I can give you a measure that is unproblematic."
It's the same for IQ. It predicts social outcome.
hitssquad 6 months ago
@hitssquad Bone width predict social outcomes? Well perhaps. But isn't the whole point of the racism debate that people WANT certain social outcomes hence pick measures that help them argue for those? Hence we don't bicker over bone-widthism. But that would actually have more merit than IQ debates.
socrates856 6 months ago
@socrates856 "Bone width predict social outcomes?"
...Not very well. IQ is the single best known predictor of social outcome. Since IQ is already the best predictor, bone-width-measurement can't be, and thus IQ is more socially relevant. If you have a problem with scientists employing reliable and accurate predictors of social outcome, then you have a problem with science.
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"But isn't the whole point of the racism debate"
The what?
hitssquad 6 months ago
@hitssquad No, IQ is not the best know predictor of social outcome. And IQ hasn't even been shown to be a purely physiological measure, but in fact be heavily influenced by societal/nurture factors. But here we argue phenotype. You first argue that what IQ is doesn't matter now you argue it's a great predictor, yet you fail to actually establish causation etc. How about you actually inform yourself first?
socrates856 6 months ago
@socrates856 "IQ is not the best know predictor of social outcome."
Source? Then what is the best know predictor of social outcome?
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"IQ hasn't even been shown to be a purely physiological measure"
And? It's not supposed to be a physiological measure at all. It's supposed to measure the g factor, a latent property of the brain.
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"influenced by societal/nurture"
Then why has every enrichment intervention -- including family adoption and the $10 billion/year Head Start -- to date failed?
hitssquad 6 months ago
@socrates856 "You first argue that what IQ is doesn't matter"
No. IQ is a measurement of the g factor of human mental ability.
I did say that whatever your term "intelligence" might mean didn't matter to the practical and scientific usefulness of IQ. IQ doesn't necessarily need to have any relationship with arbitrary terms you might choose to throw around, be they "intelligence" or others.
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"now you argue it's a great predictor"
It is. That's why the US military uses it.
hitssquad 6 months ago
@socrates856 "establish causation"
When people have their IQs measured as children, it well predicts not only their IQs as adults, but how successful they will be in society. For example: "Arthur Jensen's 1980 textbook Bias in Mental Testing says (pp344-5): "Almost no professional [...] job has a median IQ below 100. [...] Terman's famous follow-up study of 1,500 school children with IQs of 140 and above (with an average IQ of 152) showed that this group by middle age attained a far higher level
hitssquad 6 months ago
"of occupational status than would have been expected for a random sample of persons of comparable childhood backgrounds or even of college graduates (Terman & Oden, 1959). Among the men in Terman's study, the ten most frequent occupations were lawyers, engineers, college professors, major business managers, financial executives, scientists, physicians, educational administrators, top business executives, and accountants--in that order. Over 85 percent of the men in the Terman group were
hitssquad 6 months ago
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"employed in these high-level occupations."
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IQ also (negatively) predicts negative social outcome, such as: Out of labor force more than 1 month out of year (men); Divorced in 5 years; Had an illegitimate baby (mothers); Lives in poverty; Ever incarcerated (men); Chronic welfare recipient (mothers); High school dropout.
See: en. wikipedia. org/wiki/ The_Bell_Curve
hitssquad 6 months ago
@hitssquad Sources? Funny! Given that you have been spewing uninformed drivel so far. How's this: You give me _one_ peer-reviewed source that claims credibly that "IQ is the single best known predictor of social outcome." and I'll bother collecting two peer-reviewed sources that indicate that IQ is not. Fair?
Oh and Family adoptions? Failed? By whose measure? Yours?
socrates856 6 months ago
@socrates856 "source"
psychology. uwo. ca/faculty/rushtonpdfs/2010%20Review%20of%20Nisbett. pdf "a test’s g loading is the best predictor, not just of that test’s correlation with scholastic and work-place performance, but of biological measures such as heritability coefficients determined from twin studies, inbreeding depression scores calculated in children of cousin-marriages, brain evoked potentials, brain pH levels, brain glucose metabolism, as well as nerve conduction velocity and reaction
hitssquad 6 months ago
"time measures. These correlations argue strongly for the heritable and biological, as opposed to the mere statistical reality of g."
hitssquad 6 months ago
@socrates856 "Family adoptions?"
Yes. The Minnesota twin and trans-racial adoption studies established that adoption into different families does not affect the adult IQs of twins, and does nothing to close the racial IQ gap. See the above paper from 2010 as well as the 2005 paper "Thirty years of research on race differences in cognitive ability", linked from here: psychology. uwo. ca/faculty/rushton_pubs. htm
hitssquad 6 months ago
@hitssquad Oh geez. Well I guess we better stop adopting now, because IQ outcomes is all that matters for adoption! So yes, your measure of failure is idiotic basically. How about you cite people who disagree with Rushton and Jensen to get a more rounded few of things? For example Lisa Suzuki, Joshua Aronson, The Cultural Malleability of Intelligence and Its Impact on the Racial/Ethnic Hierarchy, Psychology, Public Policy, and Law, Volume 11, Issue 2, June 2005.
socrates856 6 months ago
@socrates856 "How about you cite people who disagree with Rushton and Jensen"
Nisbett is quoted extensively in the two papers I cited criticizing Rushton and Jensen. You might know that if you had read them.
hitssquad 6 months ago
@hitssquad Er, so you cite their response as argument from others? Sorry, that's at best intellectually lazy. Yes you cited their reaction to Nisbett. No surprise what their position is.
socrates856 6 months ago
@socrates856 "you cite their response as argument from others?"
No. I said they quote him extensively. You can read his words in their paper, and you can also go read his paper wherein you will be able to read the exact same words.
hitssquad 6 months ago
@hitssquad Check: Fryer R., Levitt S. D. “Testing for Racial Differences in the Skills of Young Children.” American Economic Review. Retrieved August 14, 2009
Quote: "Utilizing a newly available, nationally representative data set with
measures of mental function among children before their first birthday, we find little
evidence of systematic racial differences in the first year of life."
socrates856 6 months ago
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@socrates856 "we find little evidence of systematic racial differences in the first year of life.""
Blacks develop faster than whites, increasing the black-white IQ gap as children age toward adulthood. IQ testing is relatively unreliable in the first year of life. In other words, whites take longer to reach adulthood, but when they get there they end up with higher IQs on average.
hitssquad 6 months ago
@socrates856 This is Nisbett's book: amazon. com/Intelligence-How-Get-Schools-Cultures/dp/0393065057
You can read some of it online at Amazon. Just click "Search inside this book".
hitssquad 6 months ago
@hitssquad You are dodging my point.
socrates856 6 months ago
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@socrates856 "You are dodging my point."
Which one?
hitssquad 6 months ago
@socrates856 Bone density is measured in inches. Inches are a man made measure. The two are very comparable.
Ugh. Most predicates and universal referents don't have exact criteria. Chair, Book, Wall, ect. None of them have exact criteria. They are all fuzzy on the edges. We use them because they are none the less incredibly useful.
The lines are drawn by common use.
spawktalk 6 months ago 2
1:04 "Black people have an IQ of 85"
78. See the Rushton&Jenson paper linked from this VDare article by Rushton: vdare. com/rushton/100125_nisbett. htm "Jensen and I have provided a long point-counterpoint review of Nisbett’s book in The Open Psychology Journal. [Race and IQ: A Theory-Based Review of the Research in Richard Nisbett’s Intelligence and How to Get It(PDF)]"
hitssquad 6 months ago
2/2
.Eyferth (1961) studied the out-of-wedlock children of black and white soldiers stationed in Germany after World War 2 and then raised by white German mothers and found no significant differences. Nisbett writes that Flynn has argued that the army testing could not have produced more than a 3 IQ point advantage for the African Americans soldiers compared to the general African Americans population and that the North Africans would change the results only by a small amount.
SuicidalKiller4life 6 months ago
Moore (compared black and mixed-race children adopted by either black or white middle-class families in the US. There was no difference in IQ between black and mixed-race children, whether raised by black or white families. Moore also observed that 23 black and interracial children raised by white parents had a significantly higher mean score than 23 age-matched children raised by black parents (117 vs 104), and argued that differences in early socialization explained these differences
1/2
SuicidalKiller4life 6 months ago
I have actually went to see the adoption study.
And I later went on wikipedia to find this statement.
"Nisbett has criticized the study for a number of weaknesses that are acknowledged by the authors.Rushton and Jensen have criticized this and argued for the significance of this study.Three other studies found opposing evidence with none finding higher intelligence in white children than in black children."
1/2
SuicidalKiller4life 6 months ago
@SuicidalKiller4life Nissbet's arguments are pretty weak. You didn't actually use them, you just referenced them, so im not going to take the time to respond to them. You also failed to mention that all 3 studies have been crtizised by Rushton and Jensen, which is in the same wiki article. I think that's pretty dishonest. Two important criticisms are that such studies often have small sample size, and are looking at young children. The .8 heretability of IQ doesn't take place until people are
spawktalk 6 months ago
@SuicidalKiller4life pretty old, so the results are actually to be expected.
spawktalk 6 months ago
@spawktalk "The .8 heretability of IQ doesn't take place until people are pretty old, so the results are actually to be expected."
Yes. It's well known that the heritability of IQ rises with age. Part of this stems from the fact that different people age at different rates, skewing the results which are then inevitably comparisons of "same age" children who are not actually the "same" biological age. However, as those children become adults, they gradually become in actuality the same bio age.
hitssquad 6 months ago
all those are easily demolished if you take in mind the evolution of brain during the mature lifetime.
a taxi driver's hippocampus is much bigger than ordinary peoples, evidence that the complex tasks in the work environment can lead to an evolution of brain's size , an increase of neurons connections, and therefor a higher capacity in complex thinking(and IQ).
So sociological creationist SkepticalHeretic could claim that social discrimination reduces social mobility/opportunities...
AmetReloads 6 months ago
@AmetReloads ....,that reduce the exposure to complex specialized work-tasks .
He could also claim lower investment rate on education, reduces their access to qualifications for jobs that necessitate complex task solving(that stimulate similar 'growth' in brain comblexity), so majority of african americans retain an "embryonic" "normal" IQ level, and therefor the avarage IQ of A/As is lower that "european-americans".
He could claim all those, but i doubt it since he has the iq of a potato.
AmetReloads 6 months ago
@AmetReloads Neuro-placticty does not counter anything. The heritability of IQ has been tested many times. Once one is old enough it rests at about .8. Your objection would be a good one were it not for the fact that it's already been tested for and dis-proven.
spawktalk 6 months ago 6
haha, brilliant, you took him apart.
MensRifleAssociation 6 months ago
Doubtful he will respond to this video.
These people do not like facts.
He would rather try to beat up on a girl. Sick bastard.
NeonPenDragon 6 months ago 6
@NeonPenDragon Naww self victimization. Liking in facts tsk tsk from people arguing like you ?
''The classification into races has proved to be a futile exercise for reasons that were already clear to Darwin.''
Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza
Eopyk 6 months ago
@Eopyk
There are so many racial differences known it would require a series of books to list them all.
Probably thousands more not yet discovered.
You don't prove 'race does not exist'... you just play with the term 'race'.... lol.
NeonPenDragon 6 months ago
@NeonPenDragon Nope. In fact diffrence beetwen populance is very small. people have never stayed in oen area and have always intermixed. What you have geneticly is frequency variance. And Spawk uses some pretty worng arguments here. Using language... that can change no matter genes and is not bound to genes. Most European languages descent from Proto-Indo-European and it was spoken only about 6000 years ago..
It eventualy replaced most other languages in Europe, Persia, and India.
Eopyk 6 months ago
@Eopyk
Well there are many ways to combat the 'race does not exist' crowd.... I'll start with this one.
Explain to me why doctors take race into account when they treat somebody?
Explain to me why drugs are put out that are specifically designed for certain races?
The fact that different races react differently to different foods/medicines/treaments explains perfectly how nonsensical the statement 'race does not exist' is.
NeonPenDragon 6 months ago
@NeonPenDragon A doctor must take respect to an individuals genetic problems. Just like some Swedes are alergic to apples others are not.
How ever this does not prove ''race'' Let me ask is a man and another man who are cousins who have diffrent halpogroups diffrent races ? Was hitler not European despite his Y chromosone halpogroup have higher variance in Somalia than Germany overall.
Eopyk 6 months ago
@Eopyk
So there are drugs that work for certain races and not other races.
But race does not exist?
How does that work? You have not explained that, lol.
NeonPenDragon 6 months ago
@NeonPenDragon And you did not awnser my question.
And do not confuse population with ''race''
Eopyk 6 months ago
@Eopyk
Halotypes overlap between the races, lol.
That does not mean 'race does not exist'
"Do not confuse population with race''
Playing with words is the norm these days, lol. Ok. So if a different race moved into a different 'population' would the drugs then work on them? lol.
No. They would still be the same race living amongst another 'population'.....
Why do different races react differently to different foods/medicines/treatments?
Why is there a book called 'race ethnicity and health'
NeonPenDragon 6 months ago 2
@NeonPenDragon The fact that they overlapp and the fact that genes overlapp in frequencies disproves clear cut race because it makes it from a genetic point of view subjective to what you wish to define it as.
What is worng it saying that there is soley frquency variance in variation within populations ? Nothing.
If race has no value it is soley in population genetics.
Eopyk 6 months ago
@Eopyk You are aware replacing the word race with population is just a cheap dodge to keep morons like you from throwing a tantrum and burning down a laboratory or three right?
AsymmetricalWarfare 6 months ago
@AsymmetricalWarfare Nope I am just doing science. Real population genetics. Where so called race is seen as a flawed classification , cloudy and dubios.
Population can have a varied ancestry and it often has. I am here to defend population genetics from racists fucks who still live 1800 national romantisim. HannibalBarca13 who is here commentating is a antropologist and archeologist he also says like me that race is an invalid classification.
Eopyk 6 months ago
@Eopyk 'real population genetics' means the studies that you agree with in this case. you are such a dishonest cunt. sure race doesn't have an essentialist definition, but it doesn't have to be meaningful, useful, or valid.
darklord220 6 months ago
@darklord220 *doesn't have to possess an essentialist definition, to be meaningful, useful, or valid.
darklord220 6 months ago
@darklord220 No not really. How is simply stating how gene frequency is spread out doing that ? If I talk about a certain genes frequencies in populations we see that it most often crossovers to the level that shows what you have is frequency in variance. Race is from a genetic point of view becomes subjective.
You have to prove that race in humanities case is a valid classification. I say it makes more sense speaking about neutral populance and gene frequencies in variance.
Eopyk 6 months ago
@Eopyk don't you understand that many things have that kind of semi-ambiguity, yet people treat them as objective, at least in an epistemic sense (when exactly is a group of trees, a forest?) Race is a valid classification because the subjective social reality of it refers to actual, biological realities like genetic clusters.
darklord220 6 months ago
@darklord220 Your refering it to gene clustering is pretty wishy washy and subejctive classification. But it cannot be used in population genetic classification there we already more realible ones. Like various halpogroups. That are pften varied in each smaller or broader populance.
Subjective social reality often more concerns cultural ethnic groups and linguistic groups.
Eopyk 6 months ago
@Eopyk A social reality is ontologically subjective but epistemologically objective. People don't ascribe race to some non-reality that is 'subjective' and not capable of measurement or knowing. Just because the ontology of a phenomena is experienced subjectively does not mean it is somehow not real or meaningless. Language is contingent upon society, yet functionally, people treat words as meaningful, 'objective' in a loose sense, and valid.
darklord220 6 months ago
@darklord220 How ever ethnic groups can be considerd and considerd themselves not on genetic basis but rather on cultural and linguistic basis. Western Turks and eastern Greeks are almost the same geneticly more or less. The main diffrence is that they speak languages of two completly diffrent families and diffrent religions and identities.
Eopyk 6 months ago
@Eopyk That is the biggest red herring I have ever seen. Social realities are not necessarily meaningless or whimsical like you seem to believe.
darklord220 6 months ago
@darklord220 Never said they where but they have no value in a debate about genetics. About culture yes. Genetics no
Eopyk 6 months ago
@Eopyk tsk tsk tsk are you still trying to argue that everything isn't constantly on fire? Throughout history there have been lightning strikes, volcanic eruptions, cigarette butts, etc.
DanMickie 6 months ago
@DanMickie Complete unrelated to population genetics. The point is that all you got is small frquency variance why because people have always migrated and intermarried, culturaly assimilated and invaded and traded and have several genetic contact. Genes here do not lie.
And still considerd the comment you responded too.. Language is a dumb way to do classifications on.
Eopyk 6 months ago