documentation hyperflexion clip 3 a

[xemily09x]

I don't see how everyone hasn't gotten the picture yet:

HYPERFLEXION, ROLLKUR = Bad. Forcing the horse to touch his nose to his chest, never letting him stretch, we all know the negative effects on the horses body and mind.

LOW DEEP AND ROUND = good. asking the horse to stretch downwards, stretching his back out, and then asking his nose to come slightly behind the vertical to further stretch his back muscles.

[majannie1]

If the dutch team is treating there horses so cruelly why do they become the best team ever? By abusing there beloved horses? Or maybe it is based on a system that trains horses in a combination of old and new training methods? One other thing: horses changes also just like us. Breeding is based on stronger athlectic horses with nice character. And if people want to be really honested to horses we would'nt ride them in the first place.

Have some respect!

[Littlekat909]

please

sign the rollkur petition on my channel

stop horses suffering!

[SecretOfTheDark]

As a dressage rider this argument annoys me, it is right to condemn hyperflexion when used inappropriately but even worse is to force the horse into an advanced position with a high poll unless it has first fully relaxed and is moveing freely. If you have ever seen an english show pony you will understand. By lowering and flexing the poll (rollkur) you ensure there is no tension in the neck, only then can u bring the horsecomforably into the advanced position that is observed in the ring.

[daisyfields]

SRS and others for decades have relaxed a horse without hyperflexion. The whole body needs to be free of tensions, not just the neck, and the position of hyperflexion locks the lumbar vertabrae of the back, so as a result there is tension and therefore there can be no relaxation.

[RagnorakPA]

It also leads to an artifical "break" at the third cervical vertibra, which carries over to the actual arena. My wife and I see way too many eventers and dressage horses with the artifical flexion and too many judges rewarding it now. Sad...

[ulrikethiel]

The following statement was adopted by the FEI : " The FEI condemns hyperflexion in any equestrian sport as an example of mental abuse. The FEI states that it does not support the practice."

[ulrikethiel]

The following statement was adopted by the FEI : "There are no known clinical side effects specifically arising from the use of hyperflexion, however there are serious concerns for a horse's well-being if the technique is not practiced correctly. The FEI condemns hyperflexion in any equestrian sport as an example of mental abuse. The FEI states that it does not support the practice."

[zzeldaa]

I don't care if 'it's practiced correctly', it's still f'ed up. I am glad the FEI is against it.

[hstern46]

Well regardless if rollkur is actually a beneficial stretch for the horse - making him do it for this long would be very painful and stressful for the horse, and defies all the principles I've ever learned about proper streching.

[ulrikethiel]

The following statement was adopted by the FEI : " The FEI condemns hyperflexion in any equestrian sport as an example of mental abuse. The FEI states that it does not support the practice."

[annemarieke]

Look at the flying changes at 3:50. The horse is letting it's ears flap about. This only happens when a horse relaxes!

[chestnutpony14]

as she comes into canter she has tightened her curb rien the horse is swishing his tail and at 3.12 she pulls and the horses head goes right to his chest... This IS uncomfy she has a very tight contact in canter and is holding the horses head instead of letting him carry himself

[chestnutpony14]

At 2.30 the horse is evading the hand signals she is asking and is not bending properly it is resting on the bit again as a result her hand comes right up to her chest and she is pulling continoulsy

[chestnutpony14]

as you can see the horse starts to accept the bit at 1.40 and looks a lot better but then she starts pulling on the riens again and it then is evading and resting on the bit again

[chestnutpony14]

This is not the worse use of hyperflexion that i have seen. The curb rein is very loose but at 1.02 she starts to yank on the horses right side of its mouth because she is trying to make it accept the bit. The horse is evading and that is why he looks relaxed, not all evading horses shove there heads in the air. The horse is resting on the bit and that is why she is havig to pull on its head!

[Resiliance93]

when a horse rests onm the bit never putt on the reins...eaither change the bit(if it is a hollow mouth the horse will tend to lean on the bit) or ask him to come a little rounder and he wont lean on the bit but never pull that is stupid

[chestnutpony14]

yes i know! She is pulling on the riens in this video

[Nicole7Queshua]

I've just watched a few of the clips on hyperflexion, and I've noticed that in this video, the horse doesn't seem nearly as tense, and certainly doesn't seem to be in pain. I'm not a fan of rollkür, but I think it's important to consider things objectively before passing judgment. As a rider, I try to educate myself on the physical consequences of my actions on my horse, as well as the mental consequences.

Good job presenting the issue impartially in these documents.

[Resiliance93]

finally a smart person...your the only person that i have heard say "i try and educate myself" so many riders just believe everything their trainers say. LOL :)

[eclmuziek]

DANCE OF DEVOTION!

go educate yourself...

[DanceOfDevotion]

ECLMUZIEK

You go educate yourself . It's clear that you have no education in this method and until you do, stop commenting !

[WhiteStallionProduc]

i live in the netherlands and i do like dressage...... (seeing it, not riding) BUT! : what imke bartels is doing with her horses his neck is horrible the neck is way to round! have you seen Anky van Grunsven riding? she doesn't let her horse walk so round with his head.. she even loosin up a bit! she rides okay anyway i am a reining girl (western) so.... you did a great job with this vid! go on! i hate rollkur!

[DanceOfDevotion]

the true name of this method is hyperflexion. Not such thing as rollkur

[eclmuziek]

Beautiful!! I love it!

Rollkur is the best, go Imke and Anky and all Dutch riders:D!!

[xbethlovesux]

and also if any of u notice after she stood still and flexed the horse to the right she infact let the horse have his head a tiny bit

[xbethlovesux]

people moan and say that the curb shouldnt bend like that in the horses mouth but if u look at imke she has a very loose contact on the weymouth

[canterpir0uette]

Can you say OUCH?

[horsyfreak]

she uses only her hands... :S if she was using more her legs and less her hands than horse would be on his hindlegs not front---->this is just a concept of classical dressage

So what if she's a top rider I think she abuses this horse just for results. :( So sad

[Minga90ame]

nederlands riders like anky, edward, imke(not everybody)use rollkur pretty much. isabell werth is also a meber of rollkur.

look up their resullts:

most of the toppriders today are from germany or the netherlands. think about it. Don't give me stupid comments about it. it's fact.

[USNhcc]

Does winning @ any cost justify collecting a few medals? Damaging the horse physically and mentally, creating travesties of the movements, and violating the rules of nature which classical training are based on doesn't seem worth fame and fortune. I have been lucky to get to work w/classicaly trained horses and rollkured ones. Rollkur isn't a different road to the classically executed movements as they claim. It damages the horse and creates the opposite of the desired development.

[Jaccko14]

usnhccc - would you stop refering everything to classical. Gte off your classical arse and start learning about why hyperflexion is good. Im tired of hearing people go on about how rollkur is so bad and blah blah blah.

[xxassessment]

And it is also a fact that modern dressage could be considered mediocre compared to classical military practice. Most Grand prix horses are front heavy, behind the vertical even while performing a test, have their mouth cranked shut, and have lost the purity of their gaits. They are rewarding incorrect training.

[Jaccko14]

Minga90ame - i agree! i just finished telling someone that so top 5 dressage riders use hyperflexion, Its fact people, it gets results, and alot of effert goes into it. Do some research and get a life while you are at it

[Catachima]

Das hat für mich nichts mehr mit reiten zu tun!

[cachura]

ich hoffe, dass sich in der dressurreiterei bald was ändert, zum wohle der pferde.

[ulrikethiel]

This horse has no joice, because he was deliberately brought into a mental situation of learned helplessness during the previous training. Fysiological correct and helpful stretching before a performance happens in rest and with relaxed muscles and not in high speed with weight to bear on the not relaxed back muscles while being delkiberately disturbed in balance.

[NosDiesel]

It -looks- painful, but this horse seems to know what he's doing. Try this on a Western horse and you'll likely wind up going in backyards circles, or being thrown. He may even experience some soreness, but almost anyone in their right mind that deals with any kind of regorious activity stretches before they preform, and it may not always appear as easy going or as graceful as the preformence itself.

[lewsal]

I agree that person or horse must warm up before an activity and stetches must be included in that but in most of the videos the 'stretch' of the neck is too extreme and held for too long.

[sixfootblonde]

But this video is not accidental riding - it is very deliberate and unnecessarily cruel! What a shame. :(

[nickinac1]

just to recap... ALL riding is to cruel and unnatural to some degree. I assume you will disagree but even in very basic training don't horses have to learn to 'accept the hand and leg'? If they have to learn to accept something then it means its not something they want to do.

[nickinac1]

I think it is worse to see riders on horses with their hands fixed and unforgiving making the horse unable to use its body correctly and also leading to it having a 'hard mouth or even the pony that becomes stiff on one side through deliberate holding of its head to the outside to try and slow it down.

[nickinac1]

Both of these are cruel and deliberate - without any attempt to try and explain it. Those who practise LDR, most recently Anky, have gone out of their way to explain the use of this training technique. Thats more than any showjumping rider has done to explain 'getting after' a horse at a practise fence or polo player explaining the need for all the equiptment the horses are strapped down in etc etc.

[ulrikethiel]

This explanation failed unfortunately even lately at the last GLobal Dressage Forum. This technique cannot be explainmed by sportfysiological necessity.

[sixfootblonde]

I do not think all riding is cruel - it would obviously depend how you ride. Unfortunately there are many, many riders out there interested in the competition goal at the expense (to a greater or lesser degree) of the horse.  I do agree that it is highly unnatural though.

[sixfootblonde]

The horses I have trained are not trained to 'accept' the hand and leg - what is there to 'accept' if you are calm, kind and gentle? I train mine to 'understand'. I do not work against my horses' nature but encourage, help and show them what I am looking for. I am not some top dressage rider, and I would not ever want to be if the only way you can 'win' is to abuse these beautiful creatures.

[nickinac1]

How about you are videoed every time you ride? I would like to see that you NEVER once take an unnecessary pull on your horses mouth, or accidentally give your horse a feel of the spur when it is not an aid. Get a grip and sort out your own short comings before casting judgement on world class riders.

[nickinac1]

While we are at, it lets consider some of the other disciplines that horses are subjected to... racing, polo, eventing, showjumping, hunting, driving... the list goes on. How many 'happy' horses do you think there are in these situations! Even riding school horses and ponies, so often forgotten are subject to inexperienced riders doing much more structural damage than LDR would ever do to a fit and supple horse.

[nickinac1]

Stop going on about hyperflexion, you people are hypocrites cause as I'm aware no horse ever asked to carry around a human!! That in itself is not natural, you are severely mislead if you believe that a horse is happiest when it has metal in its mouth and weight on its back. Its only needs and therefore desires are safety, company, water and food.

[kingal2]

Never in my life has a trainer told me to ride a horse "deep and round." If it is so effective for stretching than it would be asked for in the lower level tests. Do they ask for it? NO!!!! The ask for the complete opposte- long and low loosens and stretches.

[philipsmanluxe]

I want to ask you something(not to attack you or something!)Do you know what the meaning is of riding deep and round? Well it's to let them relax their backmuscles and to losen his neck. I can understand that it seems like the horse is "stuck" but actually it's losen up his muscles. But I do agree with you that in some of these video's the neck is TOO round! So I agree that's to much!But I also think that when you use this technic (less hand and less round) it works very well!

[daisyfields]

Rollkur does not loosen the back at all. It locks the lombar spine, which is why they appear stuck. They must use incredible abdominal strength to counteract gravity since their back is locked. It also does not stretch the muscles in the neck. It stretched the nuchal ligament, which is a big problem and eventually causes damage that often goes unnoticed.

[xxassessment]

I agree, many of these horses have torn or damaged their nuchal ligaments in some way, shape or form. I really hope that they perform necropsies on some the horses that have been subjected to Rollkur to show the world flat ouot the real damage.

[Jaccko14]

xxassessment - LOL!.. there is a actual report that Ankys horses are better than most. Bonfire was rollkured for 14 years, they put him into a hyperflexion frame and they did tests on it! there was nothing wrong with the horse and they said he was better than most. Do you want the website for it??

[Minga90ame]

exactly jack! there is prof that ankys horses are even better (said by a vet)Im gettin so tired of hearig all this shit about long and low. specially when mostly of it,is from riders who rides once a week on a riding school and loking at pictures over the internet and quickly decides thats wrong.

[Minga90ame]

When your trainers says its wrong, does it have to be wrong? NO! anky and more of the top riders dares to be different and she gets happy, freemoving, forward thinking horses. Its a lot more harder than it seems.

[Minga90ame]

It doesnt make any sense to just train exactly the desame way every day. At the old method you work with the horse in one position hour after hour, I cant see how people can find that correct and suitable for a horse with hundreds of muscels?! imagine if a sports man/wonman only would practise the same way, all the time, every day. It seems so stupid to me, people doesnt do it why should we force horses to do it?

[HorseMad4]

Minga90ame - very well said. I also dont understand why people have the guts to slagg off the best dressage rider in world behind a computer screen. I ask them to take it up with anky to her face, and then they shall see how very wrong they are

[Minga90ame]

yep thats right.

[xxassessment]

What in the hell gives you that idea? You obviously know nothing about the "old way" - there are tons of stretches and the vast majority of the time is spent alternating positions.

[xbethlovesux]

so basically your saying that people defending rollkur like jaccko and me only ride once a week ar riding school.... Well thats crap, I have a psg horse and we train with an international rider.. yeahh riding school sure

[xxassessment]

LOLOMFGLOL- yes, I would.

To what standard was he compared to exactly, I'm curious? What kind of tests did they do-how was he better? The standards set by these top riders is disgusting. It isn't hard to look at the horse and see what is wrong-Bonfire consistently breaks at the 3rd vertabrae NOTHING IS RIGHT ABOUT THAT. NOTHING IS RIGHT ABOUT PUTTING THAT MUCH PRESSURE ON THE HORSES MOUTH IN A DOUBLE BRIDLE.

[HorseMad4]

xxassessment - Go to Jaccko14's profile and take a look at the websites. The one with vet report is also there. There is nothing wrong with the horse breaking at the third verdibrae. It makes them relaxed through and supple, and its more comfortable for the horse. Classical horses are poll highest point with a up and back neck. They are always stiff and cannont use all their muscles.

[zzeldaa]

THANK YOU!! I totally agree! And on top of that, it is not a natural head carriage. I don't see why rollkur is becoming so prevalent- I think dressage is much better off without it!!!

[ulrikethiel]

It is a pity that you vcannot see what the horse is telling by his body language. There are hundred of kilo's on it's neck he is not in balance (for a flight animal this is not very fine) and he has pain in it's backmuscles.

[philipsmanluxe]

what's wrong with this video? She doesn't do anything wrong! So what she sometimes uses a lot of hand, the horse doesn't have any pain, because if she has, she won't stand still like that and she won't compied at that level!