@POC777 I went to Sunday school when I was a small child and I used to say my prayers by my bedside at night until the age of about 9 or 10. I went to church very few times outside of weddings etc. I was christened, like all kids in the 50's. Of course, we all said the lord's prayer every morning at primary school and religion was a part of my education, with religious education being a subject in most of the schools I attended. But my parents and siblings were not religious so the answer is no.
@POC777 I gave little thought to religion until I reached my late 40's. I just accepted it's rules - my first wife was a lapsed catholic (she's now a minister) and whilst I didn't have to convert, I did have to promise to raise our children as catholics and attend mass for some weeks prior to the wedding. Didn't bother me at all. I have always been open to hear religious viewpoints but became more and more doubtful of their truth. I finally realised I am an atheist at about 50.(cont)
@POC777 (cont) So I guess I would say I finally made a decision on my religious beliefs when I eventually took some time to think about the topic and learn about gods and the likelihood of their existence. I looked around the world and saw no evidence of gods. I read the bible in it's entirety and listened to some atheistic viewpoints. I noticed the similarities between the creation myths of different cultures and researched some religious histories although not extensively.That's how I got here
@POC777 I don't hold any spiritual beliefs.I believe that we live and die the same as all things.Animals, plants, ecosystems, planets, stars and their solar systems, galaxies, maybe even universes,all have a finite lifespan.As far as we can know anything,we know that.Our belief that our species alone is somehow immune to this natural order is as Shakespeare said "a consummation devoutly to be wished", so humans created eternity and their god of choice to share it with. But it is wishful fantasy.
What if you laid your head on the pillow tonight and the next day you didn't wake up and will be standing before God and God told you "Now do you believe in me?" what will you say?
@POC777 I guess you mean the god of the old testament? I will say "You endowed me with a thirst for knowledge and an enquiring mind. Then you asked me to suspend the intelligence you gave me to follow a book written by men. A book filled with cruelty, contradictions and inconsistencies. You gave me no evidence of your existence and gave me plenty of reasons to disbelieve, based on what I saw in the world around me. If you wanted me to believe against all reason, why didn't you provide evidence?"
No I meant the God of the Bible not only the Old Testament. He will tell you "you didn't bother to believe in Me...no faith in Me.. instead all through your life on earth you believed you'll find Me in creation...I'm not in the trees, clouds or even rocks. And you had to do is call upon Me and so be saved"
@POC777 The god of the bible may refuse you if you ever ate shellfish, wore clothing of mixed fabric, wore pants (if you're a woman) or any of the other abominations in the bible. Have you ever lit a fire or fixed a fence on the sabbath? If so, you're out! According to the bible. I find it interesting that you not only tell me god exists but you also pretend to know his mind...You know in advance what he will say to me! You have convinced yourself of his existence. This is self delusion!
This is were most atheists fail miserably because they misinterpret many things in the Bible...starting with God giving Israel instructions to live holy lives...the Book of Leviticus? If you have read and studied that book in Old Testament then I have no problem of explaining why God gave Israel a dietary instructions....mixing fabrics or even woman wearing pants. But if not it will be difficult!
God gave Israel the Sabbath Day forever not the Christian. But still most(speaking of Seven Day Adventist) that we still need to keep it holy and not do whats according to our pleasure. I have bad news for you...everyone has broken the third commandment..which means God's law...and are sinners.
Speaking of the Sabbath Day let me ask you this question and use your critical thinking. One Sunday morning, if you were walking on a bride and saw a person drowning below will you go down there and save them? Lifting something up is as same as working! Now the man that got stoned to death for lighting a fire on Sabbath Day is a different story and requires much study.
@POC777 Of course I would go to the river and attempt a rescue! That is because I am not constrained by the immoral religious nonsense of the old testament! I am a moral person. No doubt you are too, I'm sure you would attempt a rescue also. Does this mean you are a sinner? It probably does, as you saved someone in this life, at the risk of your immortal soul! What is to study about the man stoned for collecting wood? It was clearly god's will he be killed! End of story! What is to interpret?
Was Jesus religious? Yes...thank you...yes I'm a sinner because all of us have sinned against God. My friend there is more in the story of the man being stoned...its quite similar to Achan's stoning found in the Book of Joshua.
The man who picked up sticks to make a fire disobeyed God Moses taught him the Ten Commandments. Now if he wouldn't been stoned everyone in the camp would've disobeyed God like just like he did and the result more deaths.
@POC777 (cont) Of course, I may meet any of the thousands of gods that have preceded the god of Moses. What if Zeus or Thor is there to meet me? Wrong god? Plus, I can't pretend to believe, as an omniscient god would see through that immediately. What if god values my intelligent use of my brain and turns his back on those who choose to follow an ancient man made text instead of using the critical thinking ability which he gave to only one species of all his creation? What will YOU say then?
What if god values my intelligent use of my brain and turns his back on those who choose to follow an ancient man made text instead of using the critical thinking ability which he gave to only one species of all his creation? What will YOU say then?
Nothing because God is love and didn't except man to find Him the hard way which is what you are doing now. If God is on man's brain and not on his heart God will exclude man for not receiving in his heart.
@POC777 If god is love he will accept me also. Again, you presume to know what your god expects! How do you know what god will do or what he will not do? "God will exclude man for not receiving him in his heart"??? What authority do you have to make such a proclamation? Why do you think the most important virtue to your god is faith in him? Faith is NOT a virtue! Faith is gullibility! Faith is giving over your critical thinking faculty in favour of wishful thinking and emotive fantasy!
You got that right He loves you but hates the sin that's in your heart. I read and study the Bible which is the mind of God..how He thinks. Yes, you heard me right God will exclude man for not receiving Him in his heart. If you don't repent of all your sins and receive Jesus Christ as LORD and Savior....you will be excluded from the presence of God forever. The authority is the Word of God.
@POC777 I don't accept that the bible is the mind of god. It was written by men, edited by other men for their own political and power play purposes, translated by men into other languages, losing much in the translation, then interpreted differently by men for their own ends again! And you say it is the mind of god? I don't think so...I don't accept that I am born a sinner just because some ancient text says I am! The people who wrote the bible didn't have a clue about the natural order!
I know you don't but some day you will...I'm praying for you. You are correct about men editing the Bible and I disagree with most of the versions--especially NWT. That's why I use KJV 1611 its not corrupted and was translated from the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. I agree with you about the political, power and control usage of the Bible..that's wrong right there. I'll never do such a thing!
Nobody accepts they're sinners because they want to live their lives without a God watching their every move...accountable for their thoughts..words and actions and judgment. Therefore, will deny God's existence! The people didn't pen the Bible onto stone tablets...papyrus and animal skins on their own the Spirit of God move them. In fact, there was more than 40 authors who didn't know each other...differing in times and continents.
@POC777 The only reason I don't believe in gods is because I see no evidence for them. As for accountability, I am accountable to my family, friends and society in general. That makes me a more moral person than one who is accountable to their gods! Those are the people who commit the worst sins of all!
Faith is gullibility because you never had faith to begin with just in your intellect and yourself. Faith is NOT giving over your critical thinking faculty in favor of wishful thinking and emotive fantasy...God says "let us REASON together"
@POC777 If you reason, you have to admit that there is no evidence, in the real sense of the word, for the existence of any gods. It takes real moral and mental gymnastics to read the bible and interpret it as the 'good book'. It is plainly not that! So I don't see how this can be 'reasoning'...
Of course I reason that's what the LORD God told the Israel to do in the Book of Isaiah. They were in sin and the God sent Isaiah to repent of that sin or judgment will be around the corner. That's why He tells them "Come let us REASON together" and that what God expects man to do...which has happened...like millions of times? Miraculously, lives been transformed quite dramatcially and continue to be because of the Bible or Word of God.
God gave man the ability for critical thinking...that's what the Bible is for...its criticizes you and explains you are lost in your sins who desperately needs a Savior to save you from your sins.
There are many religious books out there..I read them all..and none of them ever drawn close to God more than the Bible.
@POC777 If you come to the bible with an open mind and examine it with critical thinking, you will see it for what it is. A series of books written by men. You only find god in it if you want to. The reason why the bible brings you closer to god is because you have chosen the god of the bible to believe in. If you had been born in Afghanistan to muslim parents, you would be saying the same thing about the koran and allah!
@ManardGCrebs I doubt that I am a child of the devil. You are saying you know things when clearly, you don't! That is nonsensical. I can hear you but I don't understand why you are carrying on about the devil all of a sudden! If you are telling me the truth, it is so fantastic and extraordinary that I don't believe it without some evidence to back it up. Unfortunately, you can't provide any! I can't say I definitely don't belong to god, but I'm pretty sure I don't. I'm 98% sure he doesn't exist.
@boc1953 satan and demons have authority over humans but Jesus has authority over all. If you don't belong to Jesus satan will claim you. The biggest misunderstanding of the Bible is that when satan and his angels were banished from heaven they weren't exiled to hell they were exiled to earth but they will join us on judgement day for the ultimate conclusion. They are not omni present like God and there is only a fixed number of them so everyone isn't under attack at the same time.
@gilbert4321 As far as I can tell, there are no angels, devils, gods etc. Just as there is no evidence for goblins, leprechauns, fairies, etc. To believe in one is the same as believing in the other. You choose to believe in god because it feels more comfortable for you. That doesn't make your god of choice real! Faith is not a virtue! Faith is gullibility! And it causes so much trouble and division around the world, I really think we would all be better off without religious faith! Respectfully
@ManardGCrebs I disagree. Christians PRETEND to know things nobody knows. They don't actually know! I don't think god is a dummy, I think all gods were created by people and they are all fictitious. Millions of people once believed just as strongly in Zeus as you now believe in your god. Why don't you believe in Zeus? How do you know they were wrong? I don't believe in god because I see no evidence to support his existence. It has nothing to do with being told right from wrong! It's just reality
@ManardGCrebs We all make decisions about the value of information we receive.If we think it worthy, we investigate and make more informed decisions.This is how we learn but we are all influenced by our own value judgements.I see religious people as the 'know it alls' because they pretend to know things that nobody knows.I am the first to admit I don't have all the answers but I accept that humans never will.You can't accept that so 'god' is an acceptable answer to you.It is you who preconceive!
@ManardGCrebs Atheists may look for discussion or debate, but not fights! We leave that to religious folks, who never seem to tire of taking up arms to prove theirs is the right god or the right path to their god! Have a nice day...
'I think'. 'I think'. It is what God says that counts. No matter what we, as human beings 'think', during our brief life span here on Planet Earth, God is the Supreme Authority.
Like some skull-like demon jabbering through bad fitting dentures , MacArthur consistently quotes Scripture out of context, compromising God's Truth for his own greedy, selfish purposes. He is the living embodiment of Matt. 7:15-22.
Praise God that someone is willing to openly oppose error and speak truth in the public arena. Without resorting to personal attacks he is able to provide an answer to the arguments.
This guy in the video is talking about authority? You are a worshiper of human authority! You have nothing else to go on. The Bible is your idol. Someone (no, not God, but men) put words in the mouth of the idiol and made the idol speak. And you call it the WORD of god. lol. Moses was a genocidal tyrant who banned religious freedom and murdered his own people, the Israelites, by the thousands. He butcher thousands of little boys and girls. Are you think Moses has any credibility?
1:36. - I don't beileve Mohamed was was 'mohamedn'. Who the fuck bought this stupid monkey to the show? No such thing as Mohamdn. Also mohamed was infect a muslim, motherfuckers shouldn't talk shit without knowing nothing
I just love the way John Macarthur cherry picks the bible - like so many christians do. Yes, the penalty for homosexuality is death according to the bible. But if Macarthur has ever tinkered with his car, mowed his lawn, fixed a fence, hung a picture or lit a fire on the sabbath then according to the bible, he needs to be put to death too. When are we going to grow up and stop pretending to know things we don't know? What a god damned sanctimonious hypocrite! People like him are why I am anti R.
@boc1953 you need to learn the difference between moral and ceremonial laws. McArthur is not a Jew under the old covenant. Sounds as you're doing the cherry picking. No wonder you're confused.
@ambergini100 Did I say he was a jew under the old covenant? I am not confused but it sounds like you are interpreting again. Which parts of the bible do you want to agree with and which do you disagree with? Or maybe you agree with it all, but some parts only apply to certain people or certain time frames within history or some other spin for you to manipulate the words of the bible to mean something other than what they say. If you followed the instruction in the bible, you would be in jail!
@boc1953 Yes, you did say he was a Jew under the old covenant, in essence. You said he would be put to death if he engaged in certain activities and such. If he were a Jew 2000 years ago, that would be true. Read it in context. There is nothingnin the NT where God commands any believers to adhere to anything OTHER than moral laws.
@ambergini100 The bible says god's word is eternal and unalterable. Is that subject to interpretation at will? I don't think so. I think if god chose the bible to communicate with his creation he made a pretty basic mistake. How can you pretend to know the intention of your god? If the bible is to be 'taken in context' then that can be anyone's context. Once you start to interpret the word of god to suit yourself or the fashion on the day, it becomes irrelevant.I am pretty sure he doesn't exist.
@boc1953 One would have to try pretty hard to re-interpret the 'main and plain' things in scripture. I guess it's a matter of the heart. If ones heart is hard, than he or she is willing to go to extremes to make the scriptures say something other than what it is saying.
@ambergini100 I say again, you live near to some people who worship other gods. By not organising with your friends to have them killed, or simply killing them yourself, you are going against one of the main orders of your god. It's as simple as that. I have read the bible and it is written there in black and white for all to see. So if you choose to ignore this command from your god, yet you choose to denigrate homosexuals, you arechoosing which orders to obey, ie. interpreting the bible...
LOL I'm so fu**ing glad I'm no longer Christian. I don't have to believe in every word of some questionable 2000 year old random collection of texts. I am gnosis, I am god.
Basically, it is truly astonishing that men like this John M can use childish superstitions, based on outdated and unscientific texts and doctrines, and justified by equally childish arguments, to condemn homosexuality (a form of human sexuality as legitimate, natural, safe, and beautiful as heterosexuality), as "sinful" , & even more astonishing that men such as this can wield legal and political power in a supposed 1st-world nation!
@taofist, they are 'childish, outdated, & unscientific' because you personally believe they are, due to your narrow atheistic/evolutionary worldview. You also believe that homosexuality is 'legitimate, natural, safe, & beautiful,' for the same reason, despite the fact that many of our 'unsafe' sexually-transmitted diseases, like AIDS, spread by these means. Also, God is against unwed heterosexual sex too, even among Christians. John M. doesn't 'wield' political power - he teaches Scripture.
@BornAgainRN 8. Your interpretations of your sacred text are 'childish, outdated, & unscientific' because literal (ie concrete) interpretations of mythic (ie involving supernatural figures and events) texts are characteristic of primary-school age (cf Piaget's stages of development & Hindu regimens of spiritual development) before the mind broadens out to a more abstract, general understanding of PRINCIPLES in operation.
@taofist, the problem with the abstract, is that it's not supported by anything solid. What you believe today is different than what you might believe tomorrow. For example, 100 years ago you would have told me I was 'childish' for believing the universe isn't eternal, because I base my beliefs on an 'outdated & unscientific mythic' text. Atheistic Richard Dawkins stated "I think that religion really is about science. I think that religious claims about the universe are scientific claims."
@BornAgainRN 9.AT last, the anti-gay prude-worm at the heart of your Christian Love-apple reveals itself! If you were being honest here, you would have stated the whole truth: namely that (a)Sex is ALWAYS dangerous - in some way or other - that's its nature!; (b)Having said that, there ARE ways of having acceptably safe & sustainably loving active sexual relationships with either same-sex or opposite-sex partners, & (c) Heterosexuality is also RIFE with sexual ill-health, in or out of wedlock!
@BornAgainRN If homosexuality is a sin and disease is spread by it, how come lesbians are the most sexual disease free section of any society. Maybe your god likes lesbians?
@boc1953, based on your reply, it's clear you missed the point of my comment, & took it completely out of context, so I doubt a clarification would do any good. You may not agree with God's morality, but neither you nor I are the authority of what is right or wrong, what is good or bad, what is holy or evil. But, God IS. He hates sin.That's why He had to die on a cross.He did it out of love for us, so our sin wouldn't condemn us to hell. ALL sin condemns us, not just homosexuality.He rescued us.
@BornAgainRN See, that's where we disagree. You and I ARE the authority on what is right or wrong. It is when we abrogate that responsibility in favour of a god that events like suicide bombing and ethnic (religious) cleansing take place. It is when we believe we are doing what a god says is right that we mutilate the genitals of our children and treat our women like slaves. It is human society that determines what is right or wrong behaviour far more effectively that religion ever has.
@boc1953, then according to your morality, if I say that suicide bombing is right, then you don't have the authority to tell me that I am wrong, because I have the authority to determine what is right & wrong. The society of Nazi Germany listened to their leaders to determined what is right & wrong, which led to the slaughter of 6 million Jews in the name of Arian supremacy, 'survival of the fittest,' & 'natural selection' (sound familiar?)
@BornAgainRN Your god gave you the word on right and wrong and he told you how to treat homosexuals, people of other faiths, people who work on the sabbath and many others. You have chosen to ignore his rules on these topics. What moral authority have you consulted to conclude that you need to ignore the specific law laid down by your god? Also, the god of the old testament DOES advocate ethnic cleansing (midianites, various other -ites), women taken as sexual slaves and circumcision. (cont)
@boc1953, again, you are cherry picking by focusing on homosexuals. What the Bible ACTUALLY states is that adultery - particularly - premarital sex is a sin. This would apply to homosexuals AND HETEROSEXUALS. It is the ACT of ACTIVE fornication - whether it be homo- or HETERO- which condemns. If a homosexual repents & turns away from sin, s/he will go to heaven & if the hetero doesn't, s/he will go to hell. The Midianites ACTIVELY & KNOWINGLY chose to not listen to God & attack the Jews.
@BornAgainRN Does this mean you support homosexual marriage? Obviously, if homosexuals are not allowed to marry, then sex outside of marriage is their only option. And the bible does specifically denounce homosexuality and states it is punishable by death. As I said before, we are both cherry picking the bible, which people have done for centuries, to support our own arguments. Therefore it is not a definitive book. So full of contradictions and inaccuracies as to be irrelevant.
@boc1953, based on our exchanges, your comments are like most atheists I have encountered: When they attack the Bible, they claim to have 'studied' the Bible, yet take passages completely out of context, & their sources are recycled strawman arguments. They claim that God is immoral, yet they would rather follow Hitler, since society defines what is right & wrong. When they are shown they are in error about theology, science, etc. they won't admit they are wrong. I see you are not any different.
@BornAgainRN I have never studied the bible. I have read it and read some passages many times. I don't understand how you can put the bible into context. Surely, once you do that, it can say anything you want. I say god is immoral, based on what I have read in the bible. Like it or not, society does define right and wrong. I have no problem admitting I am wrong if you can explain why. I don't attack with anger at god, rather I am mystified to understand why a thinking person believes in him.
@boc1953, lastly, I have noticed most of all, that the attack on God is usually met with anger. For someone who doesn't claim to believe in Him, you sure harbor a lot of resentment towards Him. A person cannot be that angry towards Someone Who doesn't exist.If you REALLY understood the God of the Bible, you would realize He's NOT the monster you make Him out to be.Like most atheists, you're not interested to know if He really exists or not, but rather you just want to attack.Have the last word.
@BornAgainRN I don't resent your god, only what is perpetrated in his name. I am sure you are a decent, moral caring person and you probably have good people for friends and family. If I met you, may well be friends. I just don't understand why you think we as a species have a creator looking over us. Especially with what we have found out about the natural order of things. We are one tiny planet adrift in a universe of incomprehesibly size and diversity. How can you believe a god put us here?
@BornAgainRN Also, I don't make god out to be a monster. It is the bible itself that does that. In the OT because of the numeroues celebrations of massacre and cruelty. In the NT because of the doctrine of atonement at it's core. I am not an angry person at all...and if I seem that way to you, maybe some of my words on here have not been so well chosen. This is a poor medium for communication at best. I am open to having my mind changed but not without good cause. How about you?
@boc1953 you do realize that no matter who dies in the world ultimately GOD is taking away their life,,,GOD takes life from every person on this planet,,,and he gives life to EVERYONE on this planet,,,you see he does what he pleases,,,who are you to make judgments ab GODs decisions? you are a created being only able to breathe bc GOD allows it,,,and yet with your limited knowledge of the universe u critisize GOD when u dont even know why yr here, THE NATURE OF REALITY or who sent you
@candiceevans1 If you have read my previous posts on here, you know my attitude toward the god that you choose to believe in. This is just one of thousands of gods, created by people to try to explain the unexplainable. I could just as easily say to you that you are a mere human and yet with your limited knowledge of the universe u invent a god and accept him as an explanation of everything, when in fact he explains nothing! I could say I live with reality and you invent fantasy to escape it!
@boc1953, women were not taken as sexual slaves. I know the passages you are talking about, because other atheists have brought it up, but like them, you fail to provide the Scripture, but rather cherry-pick, take out of context, & get your sources of YOUR interpretation from other atheists. If you have a problem with the Bible, get a study Bible to clarify, not from an atheist source with an agenda. Just like if you are going to understand how to make a cake, use a cookbook, not a auto manual.
@BornAgainRN Women were taken as sexual slaves. Women and children were massacred throughout the old testament. I get my 'sources of interpretation' as you call them, from the printed words of the bible itself. I have read it all. Once you start to refer to external interpretive sources, such as a study bible, you have lost the original intention of the words of you god. You have read the bible, but lack the immorality to follow the barbaric word of your god. You are more moral than that.
@boc1953, the fact that you have 'read' the Bible is the real problem. 10 people can 'read' it & have 10 different views of what a passage might say, because they import their personal opinions, worldviews, & other views, rather than what the passage is actually saying. A good study Bible will explain what the translation actually meant in the original language, the lingo at the time, & what the author is trying to convey, so personal opinions, like yours, doesn't skew the original meaning.
@boc1953, also, I don't know what 'god' you are talking about, but the God of the Bible does NOT advocate suicide bombing, ethnic cleansing, treating women like slaves, or 'mutilating' genitals.' I think you have Him confused with a 'god' of another religion. Circumcision actually has medical benefits. Ask my uncle who had to be circumcised at 50 due to infection, because his mother didn't circumcise him as an infant. God commands us NOT to treat women harshly (Ephesians 5:25-31)-read the Bible.
@BornAgainRN I had an uncle who had to have an ear removed because of a cancer. Perhaps we should all have our ears cut off. It's the problem with the bible, or any other holy book, we can both cherry pick it to support our arguments. As I said, the bible can be interpreted to support either viewpoint, or any of a thousand others, which makes it irrelevant. Just an eccentric hobby. It is societal morality which decides right or wrong, otherwise you would be killing those who transgress gods laws
@boc1953, this is another example of you taking the Bible out of context. Circumcision was given to Abraham & his descendants as a SIGN of his covenant with them, which was a foreshadow of God's flesh (Jesus) being broken when he was whipped & nailed to the cross by the Romans. That is why the Jews continued to circumcise. There was no command to remove ears. So, if there is anyone who is cherry-picking about morality it is you. If societal morality decides right & wrong, then you support HItler
@BornAgainRN Why pick a sexual organ to be disfigured. It is clearly man's rule. Most of his countrymen and many others around the world did support Hitler at the time. If I had been born a German and was around at the time, maybe I would have supported Hitler. Who knows. I don't think so but that is looking from my perspective today. It is clearly society and social norms that decide right and wrong. That is why it's OK today for a woman to run a corporation. 100 years ago, that was unthinkable
@boc1953, by you claiming that society defines what is good & bad you WOULD have supported Hitler. If not, then you contradicted yourself. According to the Bible, is WAS okay for woman to run a corporation. There are many women in the Bible who worked & were praised for it (Ruth, Lydia, Solomon's wife, etc.) It's self-proclaimed Christians that don't always follow Christ that gives Him & the Bible a bad name. You really have to know the difference. As Ghandi said-Christians are so unlike Christ
@BornAgainRN As for god having to die on a cross for our sins, why didn't god just forgive us if he wanted to do that? According to you, he created us knowing that we would sin (omniscient) and then decided to forgive us by having himself tortured to death as a human. That is ludicrous. The central doctrine of the NT is one of the most immoral ideas known to man. The doctrine of atonement. That one person can be punished to expunge the sins of others is a discgraceful idea. Certainly not my god!
@boc1953, if God forgave us without GENUINE repentance, then leaders of atheistic states, like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. get away with slaughtering 100's of thousands of people with no justice. Sounds like the god you would believe it would simply forgive people like Hitler & usher him into heaven. According to the NT, the Person who was 'punished' was God Himself - Jesus ("God with us") Christ ("the Anointed"). Your view of the Bible is a bit distorted. I'd recommend "The Case for Faith."
@BornAgainRN The god you believe in will usher Joseph Kony into heaven. He runs his Lord's Resistance Army based on the 10 commandments and wants to set up a christian nation in Africa based on Old Testament law. He is abducts children and conscripts them into his army, forcing them to commit atrocities in the name of his god. Your god. According to all that is holy, he is a true believer. What he does takes real faith. It's much more than just posting on the internet. He is going to heaven!
@boc1953, if you had actually 'studied' the Bible like you claimed you have 'for years,' you would know that based on what you just wrote about him & if your claims about him are true, then you would know FROM THE BIBLE, that he is NOT a GENUINE Christian, & if he doesn't TRULY repent of his false preaching of the Law, rather than of Grace, he will NOT end up in Heaven. Only someone who has 'studied' the Bible would have easily realized this.
@BornAgainRN This is the argument always used when one christian disagrees with the followings of another.The 'not a true christian' argument.Read the bible and you will see it fully support genocide of this kind for people who believe in a different god! I don't see how you can say otherwise, without dishonest manipulation of the text, under the guise of 'interpretation'.If god chose this method to communicate with us, it would not be subject to change over time. His word is eternal unchanging!
@BornAgainRN Yes, I did realise what I said. Wanted to say more, but 500 characters, you know. I am happy to say that the bible is the eternal and unchanging word of god, if you believe in the god of the bible. I am also happy to agree that the bible is a VERY important book that has impacted human society like no other. Much of our colloquialisms in our language come from it's pages. Many of our best efforts are inspired by it. It has much to teach. But it is open to intertpretation...
@boc1953 the Bible doesn't allow the liberty of personal interpretation but rather a literal view just like any other book since interpretation belongs to God alone not people (2 Peter 1:20-21; Genesis 40:8; 41:16).The reason why the Bible is such an important book is because it was written by eyewitnesses of the events, including the resurrection, not made up stories (Luke 1:1-4; 2 Peter 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-8). No other 'religious book' can make those claims, including fulfilled prophecies
@BornAgainRN The bible = personal interpretation. If it hadn't been for Constantine + a few other historical figures, Christianity would be an obscure cult. Bible was not written by eyewitnesses to events. Anyone with any knowledge of biblical history know that! To try to say that is simply dishonest! Fulfilled prophecies are no more than examples of reverse engineering! How many times in the bible does it say that such and such a thing was done that it may fulfill the prophecy? Many times...
@boc1953, all your comments do is show your lack of ignorance to not only your lack of understanding of the Bible, but also world history, your personal assumptions, & your lack of logic. Your misunderstandings are based on you being trapped in you own personal worldview that you fail to step out of despite logic dictating that you should. The only reason that you comment is that deep down you aren't convinced that God doesn't exist & just trying to convince yourself rather than others.
@BornAgainRN Thank you for complimenting me on my lack of ignorance! I don't think that's what you meant to do but thank you anyway...I am not trapped in a worldview, that's your problem. I have arrived at the most likely reality, as I'm sure you believe you have - at least on the surface. As I said before, I don't say there is definitely no god! I am not 100% certain there is no god. However, I am convinced there is no god. It is very, very unlikely indeed! Especially your chosen god!
@boc1953, well, as a Christian, I can admit that I am wrong (something I don't see atheists do too often). You are correct - I meant 'ignorance,' not 'lack of ignorance,' but I assume you knew that's what I meant. The fact that you can't completely rule out God & the fact that you keep responding to me, shows your uncertainty of your worldview. But keep this in mind, one of us is definitely wrong, & we will find out one day, which one of us is. I urge you to reconsider Jesus.
@BornAgainRN I am always the first to admit I don't have all the answers.I go with the most logical reality based explanation.I see no reality in gods since we know how they were created and why.Those who created gods were looking for the best explanation for the natural events they saw and gods were the best answer at the time, given their limited knowledge.We have now outgrown those explanations so gods now explain nothing.That's why I am an atheist. We will never know because we will be dead!
@boc1953, well one thing we both agree on is that neither one of us believes in a created god. That's because God is NOT created-He is eternal. Something has to be & since the universe is not eternal, then whatever created it must be both eternal & not created itself. Perhaps you have difficulty with the concept of something nonphysical being eternal.This is because you are trapped in the worldview of scientism-the idea that science is best at explaining everything which isn't so (cont)
@BornAgainRN If you don't think the concept of gods is man made, where did it come from? In the beginning, man created many gods, then they were reduced to a few main ones and finally the monotheisms arose to say there is only one god. We are getting ever closer to the real round figure! You seem to have it all figured out. The universe is not eternal so god must have done it! That doesn't float my boat. I don't believe science is best at explaining everything but it sure beats god!
@boc1953 (cont) scientism is self-refuting because there is no scientific test which states that science is best at explaining everything.You leave out history archaeology eyewitness accounts linguistics, etc.CARM & GotQuestions have good articles on the problem with scientism.You also assume to know what happens after we die.Since you haven't died then you can't make the statement 'we will never know.'The only accounts we have of the afterlife is that there is one(cont)
@BornAgainRN History, archaeology and eyewitness accounts do not support the bible. There is almost no extra biblical account of Jesus, even though he was supposed to have been such a central figure of the time. Accounts of his ministry were written decades/centuries after his death and changed by all and sundry since then. After we die, I assume our fate is the same as all other living creatures. No big stretch of the imagination there. Science changes because it questions (cont)
@boc1953 (cont) keep in mind that the interpretation of science changes. If we had lives hundreds of years ago, you would have considered my observations of the world (a round earth that rotates on an axis, a universe with a beginning, evaporation, etc) to be based on my 'fairy tale' worldview rather than from current scientific theories. This is why notable atheists, like Antony Flew, A.N. Wilson, Matthew Parris, Peter Hitchens, & Lee Strobel abandoned atheism for theism or deism(cont)
@BornAgainRN (cont) unlike scripture, which has done nothing to advance mankind or anything else since it first surfaced. Religion is fossilised philosophy. As for the body of Jesus...who knows? If it happened at all, it was a couple of thousand years ago and the story was not told for decades afterward! Chinese whispers and all that...I guess we just have to agree to disagree, but I see no evidence of any gods and why should it be your god? What if you meet Zeus at heaven's gate?
@boc1953 The only point in your comment i disagree with is "agree to disagree" We should not allow them to force there fairy tails on us! Excellent comment otherwise! Thumbs up.
@gazamused Thanks for the comment gazamused. "Agree to disagree" only came up after exhaustive conversation with BornAgainRN and I realised he was beyond reason and certainly beyond rational conversation on You Tube! I didn't mean to infer that religion should be left alone! I think we need to keep trying to educate believers as best we can and hopefully prevent some of the barbaric practices carried out around the world in the name of religious indoctrination!
@boc1953 (cont) based on past exchanges, by now you should have the insight, that nothing is going to change either of our minds about our worldview.The only thing we can agree on, is that one of us is definitely wrong, & since neither of us has died, we can't prove the nonexistence of an afterlife, but Jesus can.As atheists Richard Dawkins & H.G Wells admit to His real existence, the atheist is left to ponder why couldn't the Romans produce His body to disprove resurrection? (cont)
@boc1953 (cont) no offense but if you want to debate, don't be offended, but I won't respond, since my goal is to spread the truth of the hope that lies in anyone who trusts Jesus as their personal Lord & Savior. The fact that you reject the evidence God gives you for His existence is why the Bible says, 'the fool says there is no God'-not for the purpose to insult, but rather to show that atheists who maintain the worldview of scientism despite the evidence is the real delusion-not God
@BornAgainRN That is the whole reason why I reject gods! The total lack of any evidence that can be shown to be conclusive! I'm a rational person. I can't help that! That's how god made me....
The Bible is just a book. If you place absolute faith in ANY book, you are being foolish, because ANYONE can write ANYTHING Try it now! Write that you are God! Don't worry - it won't come true BECAUSE IT IS ONLY WORDS! Anything written has to be tested properly against reality. & it is because of THIS basic principle that Fundamentalist, literal doctrine fails & continues to POINTLESSLY oppress people for things that are safe, healthy, & beautiful - like homosexual loving. Shame on you, John M.
@taofist Ok, but write a nearly 800,000 word book but under the same conditions that the Bible was written (40 different authors, over 1500 years, in 3 different languages, on 3 different continents, in times of peace & war, by insignificant shepherds, fishermen, self-proclaimed prophets of God & disciples of Jesus), & by the way, it must contain no errors or contradictions, fulfill hundreds of prophecies LITERALLY, & be supported by science, history, & archaeology. Give it a shot.
@taofist, the fact that you would make that comment ("What nonsense!") just shows that you have never STUDIED the Bible & compared it to science, history, archaeology, & real world events. Just because YOU PERSONALLY & SUBJECTIVELY don't BELIEVE in God or BELIEVE in the claims in the Bible, doesn't mean they aren't true. GENUINE faith, whether it be atheism or theism, is based on OBJECTIVE, open-minded RESEARCH - not 'straw-man' cut-and-paste arguments you have heard from other sources. Try it
@BornAgainRN Quite the contrary. I have, in fact, studied the Bible FOR YEARS, along with philosophy, and many other sacred texts and beliefs of all cultures, trying to find the scientific basis for literal belief that you claim... and guess what? All that "OBJECTIVE, open-minded RESEARCH" that you claim is just close-minded attempts to confirm conclusions already made; half-truths wrapped in wishful-thinking; a truth-value so low as to qualify as DELUSION, or, as Campbell says, a "misreading".
@taofist, I have no doubt that you have READ the Bible (or at least parts of it), but I doubt you STUDIED it. For instance, the Bible states the universe had a beginning, rather than being eternal; that the earth is a 3-dimensional sphere, rather than being flat, & that it turns on an axis; it describes the earth's hydraulic system; predicted the Medo-Persian, Greek, Roman, & 'Revived Roman' Empires before they existed; non-Christian history & archaeology also support the claims of the Bible.
@taofist, from my experience with other atheists on YouTube, FB, etc., it's not that there isn't evidence for the existance of God, but rather when credible evidence is presented, atheists usually choose to reject it, simply because it disagrees with their unscientific & unobservable worldview, such as the universe created itself out of nothing, then after the earth formed, living matter 'evolved' from non-living matter, which 'evolved' into us. THAT is the REAL 'delusion.'
@taofist, lastly, I would not use Harold Camping as 'amo' to discredit theism. The vast majority of Christians were actually the ones publically discrediting his claims, because he was importing his PERSONAL interpretations of Scripture to support his false claims, rather than letting Scripture speak for itself, which states 'NO ONE will know the day nor the hour of His return.' I agree with you that your study of other religions cause you to doubt God because their claims are NOT supportive.
2. I don't think you know the first thing about science, or "credible" scientific evidence. For example, you believe (with 100% certainty!) vast, untestable things based on claims written in an old book. You believe the universe was created by a bigger-than-universe-sized Person with supernatural powers.
Add these to what I said before, & you'll forgive me if I'm unimpressed by your straw-man attacks on the "atheist worldview".
@taofist, 1. Ok, my bad, you only gave a last name. I assumed Camping, since he's been used as a springboard by atheists, using his false prophecies to lump him in with other Christians. However, my assumption was wrong - I will admit to you WHEN I am wrong. :) However, if anyone has 'misread'' is CAMPBELL. I would not base your understanding of the meaning of Scripture from him. 2. So, which of the things I just presented to you are 'untestable things' & 'half-truth delusions?' You claimed it.
@taofist, also can you PROVE your atheistic worldview (how the universe came into existance, how non-living material 'evolved' into a living organism, how a single-celled organism 'evolved' into human beings over millions of years) by strictly using observable & testable science, rather than on 'theoretic arguments' that aren't supported by REAL testable & observable science? Show me.
@BornAgainRN Unlike YOUR worldview, MINE is able to contain gaps where there isn't any real evidence, and I'm allowed to call fantasy fantasy, and hypotheses guesswork, rather than pretend to myself that I know for certain. I'm also free to move from a literal interpretation of mythic material, to a symbolic, metaphorical, psychological one which fits the ACTUAL facts better.
@taofist, actually, you didn't really address either of my questions, so let me re-word them. 1. If what I believe isn't based on facts, then which of the things I provided isn't factual? Please address each one I have provided & explain to me the specific claims I have provided that aren't factual. 2. Since your 'belief' in the existance of the universe & life contains gaps in your knowledge, then how can you say what you are believing is true, since you can't back it up? Isn't that delusional?
@taofist, in regards to my knowledge of science, I have degrees in science, both at the bachelor level, & courses taken at the Masters level, so I am familiar with Laws such as the 1st & 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics, the Inverse Square Law, the theory of relativity, etc. None of these scientific laws & theories actually support abiogenesis or evolution, but rather that the universe is finite & did not create itself out of nothing. Jumping around in your belief is NOT scientific, but philosophlical
@taofist, furthermore, if your 'beliefs' are based on 'fantasy,' 'guesswork,' on 'where there isn't any real evidence,' then if you're intellectually honest, than based on your 'gaps' of knowledge, then you can't say there is DEFINIETLY no God. Based on how you base your belief system, it sounds like you are the one believing in a delusion, not me. At least what the Bible says about the existance of the universe, the shape of the earth, the rotation of the earth is based on observable science.
@BornAgainRN Since you ask, your nonsense claims include (but are not limited to) 1. The idea that the Bible can be relied on as "proof" of its own supernatural claims;
2. the idea that the Bible's supernatural claims are adequately supported by those parts of the Bible that happen to correspond with mundane facts;
3. The idea that mythological texts are to be read as scientific treatises about the physical world, as opposed to mystically revealing the psychological one;
@taofist, 1. I never said the Bible can be relied on as 'proof' of its own supernatural claims. You, like most atheists, misunderstand that there are truths based on proof AND evidence. Can you tell me the difference between 'proof' & 'evidence?' 2. The fact that the universe was created out of nothing is a miracle, but as an atheist you seem to be having trouble understanding how to recognize a miracle. 3. You are using the default position that the Bible is myth, even though you weren't there.
@taofist 1. I never said ALL of the Bible is based on proof. I asked you if you knew the difference between proof & evidence, which I'm still waiting for a response. Actually, as time has elapsed, more claims of the Bible HAS been proven, & NONE has been disproven. 2. Miracles are not based on science, yes, but that doesn't mean they don't occur. 3. Campell said the claims of Genesis aren't based on science, again Genesis 1:1. 4. Again, evidence is NOT the same as proof.
@BornAgainRN 1. Evidence is a fact or situation that suggests something might be true. Proof is a fact or situation that removes all doubt. The claims of the Bible that have been proven go nowhere near to proving your Doctrine true, and the alleged "evidence" for God's divinity and authority is just evidence for human psychology and its quirks;
2. Miracles are a nonsense-concept, ouside poetry;
@taofist, Lastly, regarding miracles. They aren't 'sweet poetic ideas.' Miracles are what happen when God implants an event into the universe that can't be explained by science. Let me ask you, if miracles are real, how would you prove them scientifically? You couldn't. In order to recognize a miracle, you would first need a normal event to be able to then identify a miracle. Maybe that's what your difficulty is in accepting miracles, you will only believe them if they can be proven by science.
6. I reject your Biblical "scientific claims" because, even if they were accurate, they don't directly prove the literal truth of the "god" stuff in it;
7. Wow. You just dissed the Theory of Evolution - in favour of Genesis!?!! Genesis? which, apart from its fairy-tale character as a piece of writing (talking snakes, etc) includes TWO (Adam's Rib & 7 Days) creation stories that contradict each other in (a) literary character (b) timeline & (c) archaeological source;
@taofist 5. However, truth doesn't change. If the universe was infinite, we would never arrive at this point in time, because there would not be any starting moment of time. Eternity past is not scientific, so the universe needed a beginning & something to create it that itself is eternal, & not physical, because the physical universe is based on cause & effect. Whether you like it or not, an eternal, non-physical entity is the most logical explanation to base a belief on the origin of universe.
@BornAgainRN 5. The truth may not change, but human mapping of it is always incomplete; your statements about the "logical necessity" of an Eternal Creator (or, in fact, a Creator at all!!) are completely without foundation. More likely, your limited human mind can't bear to think there's no sentient being there, or can't bear to leave things open-ended...;
6. You can't provide any scientifically proven claims from the Bible that prove God's existence. Try it.
@taofist lastly neither of us can 'prove' how the universe came into existance from nothing, nor how life came about in the first place. We each have our worldviews.The question we have to ask ourselves, based on the best available evidence through science, strict logic, & experience, which makes the most sense? Scientific laws have DISPROVEN the claims of abiogenesis, & outside of personal belief, evolution of nonliving matter to living matter to the evolution of man is NOTsupportive by science
6. Again, specifically claim which of my scientific claims I provided you from the Bible are not scientifically accurate, I am still waiting for a response. You said that the claims of the Bible are not scientific. They are, you just choose to reject them. 7. That's because there is NO observable, scientific evidence that non-living matter evolves into living matter, then evolves into multi-celled organisms, then evolves into human beings. You believe it because you would told this & accepted it
7. (cont.) Genesis at least tells us that the universe had a beginning (not eternal), which is supported by science, while abiogenesis & an eternal universe it not. I think your difficulty is that you hate the notion that since the Bible does make scientific claims like this accurately, long before science was able to prove it, you don't want to admit that the rest of the unproveable parts might actually be true too. Genesis 1 & Genesis 2 are not TWO different creation stories (cont).
@BornAgainRN 7. Your tales of what science supports are a wriggling mass of half-truths and innaccuracies that I can't be bothered sorting thru. As for Genesis (a)"7 days"- Canaanite text;God is called Elohim; order of creation is plants, birds and fish, mammals and reptiles, and finally man to reign over all created before him; (b) "Adam's rib" - Judah text; God is called YHWH; man comes first, plants & animals after. Lots of other differences in narrative character, etc etc.
@taofist, again, this just shows your lack of understanding of the Bible. The term 'God' has different names is Hebrew. When using it as a proper name, Yĕhovah (or YHWH) is used. When speaking of Him as Judge or Ruler, Elohiym, is used. Again, if you had read my previous post, Genesis 1 is strictly about the 7 day creation, while Genesis 2:8 talks about what happens starting with day 6 in the Garden of Eden. I'm seeing that your rejection is based more on your not listening.
7 (cont). Genesis 1 is about the creation week. Genesis 2 is an expansion of the 6th day of creation in the garden (Genesis 2:8). You claim to have 'studied' the Bible for 'years,' yet you have this wrong. This just shows me your 'study' is based on what other atheists tell you what they 'think' the Bible is saying. Archaeolgy actually has proven the existance of the Canaanites, the Hittites, & other events of Genesis, which atheists at one time said didn't exist, because there was 'no proof.'
4. The idea that I believe that "there's DEFINIETLY (sic) no God;
5. The idea that the "finiteness of the universe" is (a) certain & (b) proves your particular Creation story;
6. Your definition of "delusional". The true definition is "an erroneous belief that is held in the face of evidence to the contrary" (Note: "evidence" here means reliable evidence - ie NOT the Bible);
@taofist 4. Since you are the one making the claim that there DEFINITELY is no God - prove it using science. 5. Don't know what science book you are reading, but most reliable scientific theories tell us that the universe is finite, otherwise, we would never arrive at this point in time. 6. You claimed that the Bible is not supported by science, I gave SPECIFIC scientific claims from the Bible hundreds, even THOUSANDS, of years before scientists could 'prove' them, yet you still reject them.
7. The mistaken notion that my "belief" in certain as-yet-unproven theories is of the same character as your "Faith". It is not. My beliefs are subject to constant challenge in my own mind - ie I'm ready to disrespectfully question every bit of any one of them that doesn't fit the best evidence available ( and, if I'm lax in this, I have plenty of friends who will do it for me!). To me, theories are merely vehicles that I'm taking for a test-drive - not objects of worship.
@taofist, actually much of your world view based on your 'belief' isn't based on ANY evidence (abiogenesis, evolution, etc.), while my 'faith' is actually BASED on evidence. Faith is NOT the same as a 'blind belief,' but rather furnished by evidence, but NOT proof. If you TRULY question your beliefs based on the best available evidence, then if you're honest with yourself & not blinded by your worldview, you'll see that the best explanation for the universe is the Biblical one (Genesis 1:!).
@taofist, lastly, before we exchange any further, I would like you to answer a couple of questions/comments: 1. IF there really is a God Who you may have simply rejected despite there being evidence for His existence would you have a desire to want to know if He really exists? 2. IF this God is the God of the Bible, would you accept Him? 3. Do you consider yourself to be a 'hard' atheist or a 'soft' one? 4. I noticed that not once during this exchange have you acknowledged any truths I presented
@BornAgainRN 8. To your last questions: 1.Yes, because it would be a vital part of reality. That's how I moved from Belief to abandoning the Doctrine as a failed vehicle; 2. I'd accept His existence, but not His morality. After all, He HAS shown Himself, Biblically, to be a hypocrite, a homophobe, a mass killer & a child-abuser, who, for all His power, behaves like a petulant baby in a sandbox, filled with jealousy, & bullying those weaker than Himself to ensure their worship. A mob-boss God.
@taofist, based on your answer, you have a very trivial view of the Bible, as I have noticed from most atheists. Your sources are like trying to understand the heart by researching a book on cooking & basing your beliefs from it. If you really want to understand the God of the Bible, read a good study Bible, otherwise, your views are bound to be inaccurate & full of errors. The fact that you wouldn't accept the God of the universe if He was the God of the Bible shows your lack of objectivity.
@BornAgainRN (cont) 8: q3. I'd only be a "hard" atheist relative to YOUR or John M's Fundamentalist worldview. I'm ready to see reality as being sentient, somehow; it's just that the evidence for it is very poor indeed. All you seem to be presenting me with are naive, literalistic readings of a bunch of mythic texts that don't even belong to the same time period or cultural situation, mish-mashed together by churchmen having "conferences" under the Roman Emperor's watchful, political, eye...
@taofist, actually, 'hard atheism' is a term I've used atheists use too. You are right the evidence is very poor, that is for evolution. So, again, PROVE to me that evolution is true, using strictly observable & scientific means. This is what I am trying to get you to do - you accuse theists of not being scientitic, yet many of your own belefs that you freely admit are based on 'fantasy.' The Bible doesn't change, because it doesn't need to - it has stood the test of time.
Again, the Bible isn't a 'mythic text' just because you said so. Sir Walter Reilly acknowledged that the Apostle Luke is one of the most accurate historians of all time, based soley on his non-biblical writings. I can see now that your opinion of the Bible, like your 'science' isn't based on objectivity, but rather on a misunderstanding of the text, based on poor research. The Bible was first penned 3,500 years ago, the Roman Empire didn't exist until 1000's of years later.
@BornAgainRN My mention of the Roman Empire was just one of the many revisions and editions of the Bible THAT WE KNOW ABOUT. It is astonishing to me that you can believe material that has had centuries of editing, and has gone thru & has come from so many different cultural and historical contexts. Your discourse indicates a stubborn naivety re human nature, particularly the role of the dreaming mind, the mythic imagination, the role of bias and childhood conditioning, & problems of perception.
@taofist, actually, your lack of understanding of how the Bible was put together is the real problem. It wasn't 'edited' like you think. The oldest copy of the book of numbers predates Jesus by over 600 years - & it's word-for-word what we have today, so no editing has been involved. The same can be said for the Dead Sea Scrolls. The fact that it has come from so many different cultural backgrounds is what should amaze you, the fact it has remained inerrant & preserved over thousands of years.
@ManardGCrebs Thank god for truth and rational thinking. Thank god I can discern between fact and fantasy. Thank god I'm an atheist!
boc1953 2 months ago
@boc1953
Can I ask you a question. Did you grow up in a Christian home?
POC777 1 month ago
@POC777 I went to Sunday school when I was a small child and I used to say my prayers by my bedside at night until the age of about 9 or 10. I went to church very few times outside of weddings etc. I was christened, like all kids in the 50's. Of course, we all said the lord's prayer every morning at primary school and religion was a part of my education, with religious education being a subject in most of the schools I attended. But my parents and siblings were not religious so the answer is no.
boc1953 1 month ago
@boc1953
Ok along the way in your spiritual journey what made you change your mind?
POC777 1 month ago
@POC777 I gave little thought to religion until I reached my late 40's. I just accepted it's rules - my first wife was a lapsed catholic (she's now a minister) and whilst I didn't have to convert, I did have to promise to raise our children as catholics and attend mass for some weeks prior to the wedding. Didn't bother me at all. I have always been open to hear religious viewpoints but became more and more doubtful of their truth. I finally realised I am an atheist at about 50.(cont)
boc1953 1 month ago
@POC777 (cont) So I guess I would say I finally made a decision on my religious beliefs when I eventually took some time to think about the topic and learn about gods and the likelihood of their existence. I looked around the world and saw no evidence of gods. I read the bible in it's entirety and listened to some atheistic viewpoints. I noticed the similarities between the creation myths of different cultures and researched some religious histories although not extensively.That's how I got here
boc1953 1 month ago
@boc1953
Thank you for sharing your experience with me I appreciate the time you took to write it. Do you have any spiritual beliefs as of now?
POC777 1 month ago
@POC777 I don't hold any spiritual beliefs.I believe that we live and die the same as all things.Animals, plants, ecosystems, planets, stars and their solar systems, galaxies, maybe even universes,all have a finite lifespan.As far as we can know anything,we know that.Our belief that our species alone is somehow immune to this natural order is as Shakespeare said "a consummation devoutly to be wished", so humans created eternity and their god of choice to share it with. But it is wishful fantasy.
boc1953 1 month ago
@boc1953
What if you laid your head on the pillow tonight and the next day you didn't wake up and will be standing before God and God told you "Now do you believe in me?" what will you say?
POC777 1 month ago
@POC777 I guess you mean the god of the old testament? I will say "You endowed me with a thirst for knowledge and an enquiring mind. Then you asked me to suspend the intelligence you gave me to follow a book written by men. A book filled with cruelty, contradictions and inconsistencies. You gave me no evidence of your existence and gave me plenty of reasons to disbelieve, based on what I saw in the world around me. If you wanted me to believe against all reason, why didn't you provide evidence?"
boc1953 1 month ago
@boc1953
No I meant the God of the Bible not only the Old Testament. He will tell you "you didn't bother to believe in Me...no faith in Me.. instead all through your life on earth you believed you'll find Me in creation...I'm not in the trees, clouds or even rocks. And you had to do is call upon Me and so be saved"
POC777 1 month ago
@POC777 The god of the bible may refuse you if you ever ate shellfish, wore clothing of mixed fabric, wore pants (if you're a woman) or any of the other abominations in the bible. Have you ever lit a fire or fixed a fence on the sabbath? If so, you're out! According to the bible. I find it interesting that you not only tell me god exists but you also pretend to know his mind...You know in advance what he will say to me! You have convinced yourself of his existence. This is self delusion!
boc1953 1 month ago
@boc1953
This is were most atheists fail miserably because they misinterpret many things in the Bible...starting with God giving Israel instructions to live holy lives...the Book of Leviticus? If you have read and studied that book in Old Testament then I have no problem of explaining why God gave Israel a dietary instructions....mixing fabrics or even woman wearing pants. But if not it will be difficult!
POC777 1 month ago
@POC777 I have read Leviticus and can refer to it if you want to discuss it. I have a bible in my bedside table.
boc1953 1 month ago
@boc1953
God gave Israel the Sabbath Day forever not the Christian. But still most(speaking of Seven Day Adventist) that we still need to keep it holy and not do whats according to our pleasure. I have bad news for you...everyone has broken the third commandment..which means God's law...and are sinners.
POC777 1 month ago
@POC777 Does this mean we all deserve to be stoned to death? Because we broke god's third law?
boc1953 1 month ago
@boc1953
Speaking of the Sabbath Day let me ask you this question and use your critical thinking. One Sunday morning, if you were walking on a bride and saw a person drowning below will you go down there and save them? Lifting something up is as same as working! Now the man that got stoned to death for lighting a fire on Sabbath Day is a different story and requires much study.
POC777 1 month ago
@POC777 Of course I would go to the river and attempt a rescue! That is because I am not constrained by the immoral religious nonsense of the old testament! I am a moral person. No doubt you are too, I'm sure you would attempt a rescue also. Does this mean you are a sinner? It probably does, as you saved someone in this life, at the risk of your immortal soul! What is to study about the man stoned for collecting wood? It was clearly god's will he be killed! End of story! What is to interpret?
boc1953 1 month ago
@boc1953
Was Jesus religious? Yes...thank you...yes I'm a sinner because all of us have sinned against God. My friend there is more in the story of the man being stoned...its quite similar to Achan's stoning found in the Book of Joshua.
The man who picked up sticks to make a fire disobeyed God Moses taught him the Ten Commandments. Now if he wouldn't been stoned everyone in the camp would've disobeyed God like just like he did and the result more deaths.
POC777 1 month ago
@POC777 (cont) Of course, I may meet any of the thousands of gods that have preceded the god of Moses. What if Zeus or Thor is there to meet me? Wrong god? Plus, I can't pretend to believe, as an omniscient god would see through that immediately. What if god values my intelligent use of my brain and turns his back on those who choose to follow an ancient man made text instead of using the critical thinking ability which he gave to only one species of all his creation? What will YOU say then?
boc1953 1 month ago
@boc1953
What if god values my intelligent use of my brain and turns his back on those who choose to follow an ancient man made text instead of using the critical thinking ability which he gave to only one species of all his creation? What will YOU say then?
Nothing because God is love and didn't except man to find Him the hard way which is what you are doing now. If God is on man's brain and not on his heart God will exclude man for not receiving in his heart.
POC777 1 month ago
@POC777 If god is love he will accept me also. Again, you presume to know what your god expects! How do you know what god will do or what he will not do? "God will exclude man for not receiving him in his heart"??? What authority do you have to make such a proclamation? Why do you think the most important virtue to your god is faith in him? Faith is NOT a virtue! Faith is gullibility! Faith is giving over your critical thinking faculty in favour of wishful thinking and emotive fantasy!
boc1953 1 month ago
@boc1953
You got that right He loves you but hates the sin that's in your heart. I read and study the Bible which is the mind of God..how He thinks. Yes, you heard me right God will exclude man for not receiving Him in his heart. If you don't repent of all your sins and receive Jesus Christ as LORD and Savior....you will be excluded from the presence of God forever. The authority is the Word of God.
POC777 1 month ago
@POC777 I don't accept that the bible is the mind of god. It was written by men, edited by other men for their own political and power play purposes, translated by men into other languages, losing much in the translation, then interpreted differently by men for their own ends again! And you say it is the mind of god? I don't think so...I don't accept that I am born a sinner just because some ancient text says I am! The people who wrote the bible didn't have a clue about the natural order!
boc1953 1 month ago
@boc1953
I know you don't but some day you will...I'm praying for you. You are correct about men editing the Bible and I disagree with most of the versions--especially NWT. That's why I use KJV 1611 its not corrupted and was translated from the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. I agree with you about the political, power and control usage of the Bible..that's wrong right there. I'll never do such a thing!
POC777 1 month ago
@boc1953
Nobody accepts they're sinners because they want to live their lives without a God watching their every move...accountable for their thoughts..words and actions and judgment. Therefore, will deny God's existence! The people didn't pen the Bible onto stone tablets...papyrus and animal skins on their own the Spirit of God move them. In fact, there was more than 40 authors who didn't know each other...differing in times and continents.
POC777 1 month ago
@POC777 The only reason I don't believe in gods is because I see no evidence for them. As for accountability, I am accountable to my family, friends and society in general. That makes me a more moral person than one who is accountable to their gods! Those are the people who commit the worst sins of all!
boc1953 1 month ago
@boc1953
Faith is gullibility because you never had faith to begin with just in your intellect and yourself. Faith is NOT giving over your critical thinking faculty in favor of wishful thinking and emotive fantasy...God says "let us REASON together"
POC777 1 month ago
@POC777 If you reason, you have to admit that there is no evidence, in the real sense of the word, for the existence of any gods. It takes real moral and mental gymnastics to read the bible and interpret it as the 'good book'. It is plainly not that! So I don't see how this can be 'reasoning'...
boc1953 1 month ago
@boc1953
Of course I reason that's what the LORD God told the Israel to do in the Book of Isaiah. They were in sin and the God sent Isaiah to repent of that sin or judgment will be around the corner. That's why He tells them "Come let us REASON together" and that what God expects man to do...which has happened...like millions of times? Miraculously, lives been transformed quite dramatcially and continue to be because of the Bible or Word of God.
POC777 1 month ago
@POC777
God gave man the ability for critical thinking...that's what the Bible is for...its criticizes you and explains you are lost in your sins who desperately needs a Savior to save you from your sins.
There are many religious books out there..I read them all..and none of them ever drawn close to God more than the Bible.
POC777 1 month ago
@POC777 If you come to the bible with an open mind and examine it with critical thinking, you will see it for what it is. A series of books written by men. You only find god in it if you want to. The reason why the bible brings you closer to god is because you have chosen the god of the bible to believe in. If you had been born in Afghanistan to muslim parents, you would be saying the same thing about the koran and allah!
boc1953 1 month ago
@POC777 Hope you had a good Christmas and New Year. Do you want to continue our discussion?
boc1953 1 month ago
@POC777 I never had faith to begin with because I was born an atheist like everyone is and I was not indoctrinated with religious faith.
boc1953 1 month ago
@ManardGCrebs I doubt that I am a child of the devil. You are saying you know things when clearly, you don't! That is nonsensical. I can hear you but I don't understand why you are carrying on about the devil all of a sudden! If you are telling me the truth, it is so fantastic and extraordinary that I don't believe it without some evidence to back it up. Unfortunately, you can't provide any! I can't say I definitely don't belong to god, but I'm pretty sure I don't. I'm 98% sure he doesn't exist.
boc1953 3 months ago
@boc1953 satan and demons have authority over humans but Jesus has authority over all. If you don't belong to Jesus satan will claim you. The biggest misunderstanding of the Bible is that when satan and his angels were banished from heaven they weren't exiled to hell they were exiled to earth but they will join us on judgement day for the ultimate conclusion. They are not omni present like God and there is only a fixed number of them so everyone isn't under attack at the same time.
gilbert4321 2 months ago
@gilbert4321 As far as I can tell, there are no angels, devils, gods etc. Just as there is no evidence for goblins, leprechauns, fairies, etc. To believe in one is the same as believing in the other. You choose to believe in god because it feels more comfortable for you. That doesn't make your god of choice real! Faith is not a virtue! Faith is gullibility! And it causes so much trouble and division around the world, I really think we would all be better off without religious faith! Respectfully
boc1953 2 months ago
@ManardGCrebs I disagree. Christians PRETEND to know things nobody knows. They don't actually know! I don't think god is a dummy, I think all gods were created by people and they are all fictitious. Millions of people once believed just as strongly in Zeus as you now believe in your god. Why don't you believe in Zeus? How do you know they were wrong? I don't believe in god because I see no evidence to support his existence. It has nothing to do with being told right from wrong! It's just reality
boc1953 3 months ago
Thank god I'm an atheist!
boc1953 3 months ago
@ManardGCrebs We all make decisions about the value of information we receive.If we think it worthy, we investigate and make more informed decisions.This is how we learn but we are all influenced by our own value judgements.I see religious people as the 'know it alls' because they pretend to know things that nobody knows.I am the first to admit I don't have all the answers but I accept that humans never will.You can't accept that so 'god' is an acceptable answer to you.It is you who preconceive!
boc1953 3 months ago
@ManardGCrebs Atheists may look for discussion or debate, but not fights! We leave that to religious folks, who never seem to tire of taking up arms to prove theirs is the right god or the right path to their god! Have a nice day...
boc1953 3 months ago
thumbs up if you go to john's church!!!
TheIampoopoo 3 months ago
'I think'. 'I think'. It is what God says that counts. No matter what we, as human beings 'think', during our brief life span here on Planet Earth, God is the Supreme Authority.
TheQueenofHibernia 3 months ago
Like some skull-like demon jabbering through bad fitting dentures , MacArthur consistently quotes Scripture out of context, compromising God's Truth for his own greedy, selfish purposes. He is the living embodiment of Matt. 7:15-22.
rickw1100 4 months ago 2
Go johnny go, go; Go johnny go, go ,go; go johnny go, go......Johnny be good!
EXALTEDDIRT 4 months ago
Praise God that someone is willing to openly oppose error and speak truth in the public arena. Without resorting to personal attacks he is able to provide an answer to the arguments.
photizo04 5 months ago in playlist Grace to You / John MacArthur
Beyond that? How Holy of a GOD would just not punish wickedness?
Domodeath 6 months ago
MacArthur will have much to answer for come judgement day! Matt 7 :15.
rickw1100 6 months ago 2
This guy in the video is talking about authority? You are a worshiper of human authority! You have nothing else to go on. The Bible is your idol. Someone (no, not God, but men) put words in the mouth of the idiol and made the idol speak. And you call it the WORD of god. lol. Moses was a genocidal tyrant who banned religious freedom and murdered his own people, the Israelites, by the thousands. He butcher thousands of little boys and girls. Are you think Moses has any credibility?
imjustpassinthru 6 months ago 2
1:36. - I don't beileve Mohamed was was 'mohamedn'. Who the fuck bought this stupid monkey to the show? No such thing as Mohamdn. Also mohamed was infect a muslim, motherfuckers shouldn't talk shit without knowing nothing
DonZaka93 6 months ago
I just love the way John Macarthur cherry picks the bible - like so many christians do. Yes, the penalty for homosexuality is death according to the bible. But if Macarthur has ever tinkered with his car, mowed his lawn, fixed a fence, hung a picture or lit a fire on the sabbath then according to the bible, he needs to be put to death too. When are we going to grow up and stop pretending to know things we don't know? What a god damned sanctimonious hypocrite! People like him are why I am anti R.
boc1953 6 months ago
@boc1953 you need to learn the difference between moral and ceremonial laws. McArthur is not a Jew under the old covenant. Sounds as you're doing the cherry picking. No wonder you're confused.
ambergini100 6 months ago
@ambergini100 Did I say he was a jew under the old covenant? I am not confused but it sounds like you are interpreting again. Which parts of the bible do you want to agree with and which do you disagree with? Or maybe you agree with it all, but some parts only apply to certain people or certain time frames within history or some other spin for you to manipulate the words of the bible to mean something other than what they say. If you followed the instruction in the bible, you would be in jail!
boc1953 6 months ago
@boc1953 Yes, you did say he was a Jew under the old covenant, in essence. You said he would be put to death if he engaged in certain activities and such. If he were a Jew 2000 years ago, that would be true. Read it in context. There is nothingnin the NT where God commands any believers to adhere to anything OTHER than moral laws.
ambergini100 6 months ago
@ambergini100 The bible says god's word is eternal and unalterable. Is that subject to interpretation at will? I don't think so. I think if god chose the bible to communicate with his creation he made a pretty basic mistake. How can you pretend to know the intention of your god? If the bible is to be 'taken in context' then that can be anyone's context. Once you start to interpret the word of god to suit yourself or the fashion on the day, it becomes irrelevant.I am pretty sure he doesn't exist.
boc1953 6 months ago
@boc1953 One would have to try pretty hard to re-interpret the 'main and plain' things in scripture. I guess it's a matter of the heart. If ones heart is hard, than he or she is willing to go to extremes to make the scriptures say something other than what it is saying.
ambergini100 6 months ago
@ambergini100 I say again, you live near to some people who worship other gods. By not organising with your friends to have them killed, or simply killing them yourself, you are going against one of the main orders of your god. It's as simple as that. I have read the bible and it is written there in black and white for all to see. So if you choose to ignore this command from your god, yet you choose to denigrate homosexuals, you arechoosing which orders to obey, ie. interpreting the bible...
boc1953 6 months ago
LOL I'm so fu**ing glad I'm no longer Christian. I don't have to believe in every word of some questionable 2000 year old random collection of texts. I am gnosis, I am god.
rusman74x 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Basically, it is truly astonishing that men like this John M can use childish superstitions, based on outdated and unscientific texts and doctrines, and justified by equally childish arguments, to condemn homosexuality (a form of human sexuality as legitimate, natural, safe, and beautiful as heterosexuality), as "sinful" , & even more astonishing that men such as this can wield legal and political power in a supposed 1st-world nation!
taofist 6 months ago
@taofist, they are 'childish, outdated, & unscientific' because you personally believe they are, due to your narrow atheistic/evolutionary worldview. You also believe that homosexuality is 'legitimate, natural, safe, & beautiful,' for the same reason, despite the fact that many of our 'unsafe' sexually-transmitted diseases, like AIDS, spread by these means. Also, God is against unwed heterosexual sex too, even among Christians. John M. doesn't 'wield' political power - he teaches Scripture.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN 8. Your interpretations of your sacred text are 'childish, outdated, & unscientific' because literal (ie concrete) interpretations of mythic (ie involving supernatural figures and events) texts are characteristic of primary-school age (cf Piaget's stages of development & Hindu regimens of spiritual development) before the mind broadens out to a more abstract, general understanding of PRINCIPLES in operation.
taofist 6 months ago
@taofist, the problem with the abstract, is that it's not supported by anything solid. What you believe today is different than what you might believe tomorrow. For example, 100 years ago you would have told me I was 'childish' for believing the universe isn't eternal, because I base my beliefs on an 'outdated & unscientific mythic' text. Atheistic Richard Dawkins stated "I think that religion really is about science. I think that religious claims about the universe are scientific claims."
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN 9.AT last, the anti-gay prude-worm at the heart of your Christian Love-apple reveals itself! If you were being honest here, you would have stated the whole truth: namely that (a)Sex is ALWAYS dangerous - in some way or other - that's its nature!; (b)Having said that, there ARE ways of having acceptably safe & sustainably loving active sexual relationships with either same-sex or opposite-sex partners, & (c) Heterosexuality is also RIFE with sexual ill-health, in or out of wedlock!
taofist 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN If homosexuality is a sin and disease is spread by it, how come lesbians are the most sexual disease free section of any society. Maybe your god likes lesbians?
boc1953 6 months ago
@boc1953, based on your reply, it's clear you missed the point of my comment, & took it completely out of context, so I doubt a clarification would do any good. You may not agree with God's morality, but neither you nor I are the authority of what is right or wrong, what is good or bad, what is holy or evil. But, God IS. He hates sin.That's why He had to die on a cross.He did it out of love for us, so our sin wouldn't condemn us to hell. ALL sin condemns us, not just homosexuality.He rescued us.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN See, that's where we disagree. You and I ARE the authority on what is right or wrong. It is when we abrogate that responsibility in favour of a god that events like suicide bombing and ethnic (religious) cleansing take place. It is when we believe we are doing what a god says is right that we mutilate the genitals of our children and treat our women like slaves. It is human society that determines what is right or wrong behaviour far more effectively that religion ever has.
boc1953 6 months ago 2
@boc1953, then according to your morality, if I say that suicide bombing is right, then you don't have the authority to tell me that I am wrong, because I have the authority to determine what is right & wrong. The society of Nazi Germany listened to their leaders to determined what is right & wrong, which led to the slaughter of 6 million Jews in the name of Arian supremacy, 'survival of the fittest,' & 'natural selection' (sound familiar?)
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN Your god gave you the word on right and wrong and he told you how to treat homosexuals, people of other faiths, people who work on the sabbath and many others. You have chosen to ignore his rules on these topics. What moral authority have you consulted to conclude that you need to ignore the specific law laid down by your god? Also, the god of the old testament DOES advocate ethnic cleansing (midianites, various other -ites), women taken as sexual slaves and circumcision. (cont)
boc1953 6 months ago
@boc1953, again, you are cherry picking by focusing on homosexuals. What the Bible ACTUALLY states is that adultery - particularly - premarital sex is a sin. This would apply to homosexuals AND HETEROSEXUALS. It is the ACT of ACTIVE fornication - whether it be homo- or HETERO- which condemns. If a homosexual repents & turns away from sin, s/he will go to heaven & if the hetero doesn't, s/he will go to hell. The Midianites ACTIVELY & KNOWINGLY chose to not listen to God & attack the Jews.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN Does this mean you support homosexual marriage? Obviously, if homosexuals are not allowed to marry, then sex outside of marriage is their only option. And the bible does specifically denounce homosexuality and states it is punishable by death. As I said before, we are both cherry picking the bible, which people have done for centuries, to support our own arguments. Therefore it is not a definitive book. So full of contradictions and inaccuracies as to be irrelevant.
boc1953 6 months ago
@boc1953, based on our exchanges, your comments are like most atheists I have encountered: When they attack the Bible, they claim to have 'studied' the Bible, yet take passages completely out of context, & their sources are recycled strawman arguments. They claim that God is immoral, yet they would rather follow Hitler, since society defines what is right & wrong. When they are shown they are in error about theology, science, etc. they won't admit they are wrong. I see you are not any different.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN I have never studied the bible. I have read it and read some passages many times. I don't understand how you can put the bible into context. Surely, once you do that, it can say anything you want. I say god is immoral, based on what I have read in the bible. Like it or not, society does define right and wrong. I have no problem admitting I am wrong if you can explain why. I don't attack with anger at god, rather I am mystified to understand why a thinking person believes in him.
boc1953 6 months ago 2
@boc1953, lastly, I have noticed most of all, that the attack on God is usually met with anger. For someone who doesn't claim to believe in Him, you sure harbor a lot of resentment towards Him. A person cannot be that angry towards Someone Who doesn't exist.If you REALLY understood the God of the Bible, you would realize He's NOT the monster you make Him out to be.Like most atheists, you're not interested to know if He really exists or not, but rather you just want to attack.Have the last word.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN I don't resent your god, only what is perpetrated in his name. I am sure you are a decent, moral caring person and you probably have good people for friends and family. If I met you, may well be friends. I just don't understand why you think we as a species have a creator looking over us. Especially with what we have found out about the natural order of things. We are one tiny planet adrift in a universe of incomprehesibly size and diversity. How can you believe a god put us here?
boc1953 6 months ago 2
@BornAgainRN Also, I don't make god out to be a monster. It is the bible itself that does that. In the OT because of the numeroues celebrations of massacre and cruelty. In the NT because of the doctrine of atonement at it's core. I am not an angry person at all...and if I seem that way to you, maybe some of my words on here have not been so well chosen. This is a poor medium for communication at best. I am open to having my mind changed but not without good cause. How about you?
boc1953 6 months ago 11
@boc1953 you do realize that no matter who dies in the world ultimately GOD is taking away their life,,,GOD takes life from every person on this planet,,,and he gives life to EVERYONE on this planet,,,you see he does what he pleases,,,who are you to make judgments ab GODs decisions? you are a created being only able to breathe bc GOD allows it,,,and yet with your limited knowledge of the universe u critisize GOD when u dont even know why yr here, THE NATURE OF REALITY or who sent you
candiceevans1 3 months ago
@candiceevans1 If you have read my previous posts on here, you know my attitude toward the god that you choose to believe in. This is just one of thousands of gods, created by people to try to explain the unexplainable. I could just as easily say to you that you are a mere human and yet with your limited knowledge of the universe u invent a god and accept him as an explanation of everything, when in fact he explains nothing! I could say I live with reality and you invent fantasy to escape it!
boc1953 3 months ago
@boc1953, women were not taken as sexual slaves. I know the passages you are talking about, because other atheists have brought it up, but like them, you fail to provide the Scripture, but rather cherry-pick, take out of context, & get your sources of YOUR interpretation from other atheists. If you have a problem with the Bible, get a study Bible to clarify, not from an atheist source with an agenda. Just like if you are going to understand how to make a cake, use a cookbook, not a auto manual.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN Women were taken as sexual slaves. Women and children were massacred throughout the old testament. I get my 'sources of interpretation' as you call them, from the printed words of the bible itself. I have read it all. Once you start to refer to external interpretive sources, such as a study bible, you have lost the original intention of the words of you god. You have read the bible, but lack the immorality to follow the barbaric word of your god. You are more moral than that.
boc1953 6 months ago
@boc1953, the fact that you have 'read' the Bible is the real problem. 10 people can 'read' it & have 10 different views of what a passage might say, because they import their personal opinions, worldviews, & other views, rather than what the passage is actually saying. A good study Bible will explain what the translation actually meant in the original language, the lingo at the time, & what the author is trying to convey, so personal opinions, like yours, doesn't skew the original meaning.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@boc1953, also, I don't know what 'god' you are talking about, but the God of the Bible does NOT advocate suicide bombing, ethnic cleansing, treating women like slaves, or 'mutilating' genitals.' I think you have Him confused with a 'god' of another religion. Circumcision actually has medical benefits. Ask my uncle who had to be circumcised at 50 due to infection, because his mother didn't circumcise him as an infant. God commands us NOT to treat women harshly (Ephesians 5:25-31)-read the Bible.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN I had an uncle who had to have an ear removed because of a cancer. Perhaps we should all have our ears cut off. It's the problem with the bible, or any other holy book, we can both cherry pick it to support our arguments. As I said, the bible can be interpreted to support either viewpoint, or any of a thousand others, which makes it irrelevant. Just an eccentric hobby. It is societal morality which decides right or wrong, otherwise you would be killing those who transgress gods laws
boc1953 6 months ago
@boc1953, this is another example of you taking the Bible out of context. Circumcision was given to Abraham & his descendants as a SIGN of his covenant with them, which was a foreshadow of God's flesh (Jesus) being broken when he was whipped & nailed to the cross by the Romans. That is why the Jews continued to circumcise. There was no command to remove ears. So, if there is anyone who is cherry-picking about morality it is you. If societal morality decides right & wrong, then you support HItler
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN Why pick a sexual organ to be disfigured. It is clearly man's rule. Most of his countrymen and many others around the world did support Hitler at the time. If I had been born a German and was around at the time, maybe I would have supported Hitler. Who knows. I don't think so but that is looking from my perspective today. It is clearly society and social norms that decide right and wrong. That is why it's OK today for a woman to run a corporation. 100 years ago, that was unthinkable
boc1953 6 months ago
@boc1953, by you claiming that society defines what is good & bad you WOULD have supported Hitler. If not, then you contradicted yourself. According to the Bible, is WAS okay for woman to run a corporation. There are many women in the Bible who worked & were praised for it (Ruth, Lydia, Solomon's wife, etc.) It's self-proclaimed Christians that don't always follow Christ that gives Him & the Bible a bad name. You really have to know the difference. As Ghandi said-Christians are so unlike Christ
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN As for god having to die on a cross for our sins, why didn't god just forgive us if he wanted to do that? According to you, he created us knowing that we would sin (omniscient) and then decided to forgive us by having himself tortured to death as a human. That is ludicrous. The central doctrine of the NT is one of the most immoral ideas known to man. The doctrine of atonement. That one person can be punished to expunge the sins of others is a discgraceful idea. Certainly not my god!
boc1953 6 months ago
@boc1953, if God forgave us without GENUINE repentance, then leaders of atheistic states, like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. get away with slaughtering 100's of thousands of people with no justice. Sounds like the god you would believe it would simply forgive people like Hitler & usher him into heaven. According to the NT, the Person who was 'punished' was God Himself - Jesus ("God with us") Christ ("the Anointed"). Your view of the Bible is a bit distorted. I'd recommend "The Case for Faith."
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN No, a decent god would make a decision to forgive or not, based on his judgement. He wouldn't need blood sacrifice to seal the deal.
boc1953 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN The god you believe in will usher Joseph Kony into heaven. He runs his Lord's Resistance Army based on the 10 commandments and wants to set up a christian nation in Africa based on Old Testament law. He is abducts children and conscripts them into his army, forcing them to commit atrocities in the name of his god. Your god. According to all that is holy, he is a true believer. What he does takes real faith. It's much more than just posting on the internet. He is going to heaven!
boc1953 6 months ago
@boc1953, if you had actually 'studied' the Bible like you claimed you have 'for years,' you would know that based on what you just wrote about him & if your claims about him are true, then you would know FROM THE BIBLE, that he is NOT a GENUINE Christian, & if he doesn't TRULY repent of his false preaching of the Law, rather than of Grace, he will NOT end up in Heaven. Only someone who has 'studied' the Bible would have easily realized this.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN This is the argument always used when one christian disagrees with the followings of another.The 'not a true christian' argument.Read the bible and you will see it fully support genocide of this kind for people who believe in a different god! I don't see how you can say otherwise, without dishonest manipulation of the text, under the guise of 'interpretation'.If god chose this method to communicate with us, it would not be subject to change over time. His word is eternal unchanging!
boc1953 3 months ago
@boc1953 Glad to hear that you acknowledged that the Bible is indeed God's 'eternal unchanging word,' whether you realized it consciously or not.
BornAgainRN 3 months ago
@BornAgainRN Yes, I did realise what I said. Wanted to say more, but 500 characters, you know. I am happy to say that the bible is the eternal and unchanging word of god, if you believe in the god of the bible. I am also happy to agree that the bible is a VERY important book that has impacted human society like no other. Much of our colloquialisms in our language come from it's pages. Many of our best efforts are inspired by it. It has much to teach. But it is open to intertpretation...
boc1953 3 months ago
@boc1953 the Bible doesn't allow the liberty of personal interpretation but rather a literal view just like any other book since interpretation belongs to God alone not people (2 Peter 1:20-21; Genesis 40:8; 41:16).The reason why the Bible is such an important book is because it was written by eyewitnesses of the events, including the resurrection, not made up stories (Luke 1:1-4; 2 Peter 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-8). No other 'religious book' can make those claims, including fulfilled prophecies
BornAgainRN 3 months ago
@BornAgainRN The bible = personal interpretation. If it hadn't been for Constantine + a few other historical figures, Christianity would be an obscure cult. Bible was not written by eyewitnesses to events. Anyone with any knowledge of biblical history know that! To try to say that is simply dishonest! Fulfilled prophecies are no more than examples of reverse engineering! How many times in the bible does it say that such and such a thing was done that it may fulfill the prophecy? Many times...
boc1953 4 weeks ago
@boc1953, all your comments do is show your lack of ignorance to not only your lack of understanding of the Bible, but also world history, your personal assumptions, & your lack of logic. Your misunderstandings are based on you being trapped in you own personal worldview that you fail to step out of despite logic dictating that you should. The only reason that you comment is that deep down you aren't convinced that God doesn't exist & just trying to convince yourself rather than others.
BornAgainRN 4 weeks ago
@BornAgainRN Thank you for complimenting me on my lack of ignorance! I don't think that's what you meant to do but thank you anyway...I am not trapped in a worldview, that's your problem. I have arrived at the most likely reality, as I'm sure you believe you have - at least on the surface. As I said before, I don't say there is definitely no god! I am not 100% certain there is no god. However, I am convinced there is no god. It is very, very unlikely indeed! Especially your chosen god!
boc1953 4 weeks ago
@boc1953, well, as a Christian, I can admit that I am wrong (something I don't see atheists do too often). You are correct - I meant 'ignorance,' not 'lack of ignorance,' but I assume you knew that's what I meant. The fact that you can't completely rule out God & the fact that you keep responding to me, shows your uncertainty of your worldview. But keep this in mind, one of us is definitely wrong, & we will find out one day, which one of us is. I urge you to reconsider Jesus.
BornAgainRN 4 weeks ago
@BornAgainRN I am always the first to admit I don't have all the answers.I go with the most logical reality based explanation.I see no reality in gods since we know how they were created and why.Those who created gods were looking for the best explanation for the natural events they saw and gods were the best answer at the time, given their limited knowledge.We have now outgrown those explanations so gods now explain nothing.That's why I am an atheist. We will never know because we will be dead!
boc1953 3 weeks ago
@boc1953, well one thing we both agree on is that neither one of us believes in a created god. That's because God is NOT created-He is eternal. Something has to be & since the universe is not eternal, then whatever created it must be both eternal & not created itself. Perhaps you have difficulty with the concept of something nonphysical being eternal.This is because you are trapped in the worldview of scientism-the idea that science is best at explaining everything which isn't so (cont)
BornAgainRN 3 weeks ago
@BornAgainRN If you don't think the concept of gods is man made, where did it come from? In the beginning, man created many gods, then they were reduced to a few main ones and finally the monotheisms arose to say there is only one god. We are getting ever closer to the real round figure! You seem to have it all figured out. The universe is not eternal so god must have done it! That doesn't float my boat. I don't believe science is best at explaining everything but it sure beats god!
boc1953 3 weeks ago
@boc1953 (cont) scientism is self-refuting because there is no scientific test which states that science is best at explaining everything.You leave out history archaeology eyewitness accounts linguistics, etc.CARM & GotQuestions have good articles on the problem with scientism.You also assume to know what happens after we die.Since you haven't died then you can't make the statement 'we will never know.'The only accounts we have of the afterlife is that there is one(cont)
BornAgainRN 3 weeks ago
@BornAgainRN History, archaeology and eyewitness accounts do not support the bible. There is almost no extra biblical account of Jesus, even though he was supposed to have been such a central figure of the time. Accounts of his ministry were written decades/centuries after his death and changed by all and sundry since then. After we die, I assume our fate is the same as all other living creatures. No big stretch of the imagination there. Science changes because it questions (cont)
boc1953 3 weeks ago
@boc1953 (cont) keep in mind that the interpretation of science changes. If we had lives hundreds of years ago, you would have considered my observations of the world (a round earth that rotates on an axis, a universe with a beginning, evaporation, etc) to be based on my 'fairy tale' worldview rather than from current scientific theories. This is why notable atheists, like Antony Flew, A.N. Wilson, Matthew Parris, Peter Hitchens, & Lee Strobel abandoned atheism for theism or deism(cont)
BornAgainRN 3 weeks ago
@BornAgainRN (cont) unlike scripture, which has done nothing to advance mankind or anything else since it first surfaced. Religion is fossilised philosophy. As for the body of Jesus...who knows? If it happened at all, it was a couple of thousand years ago and the story was not told for decades afterward! Chinese whispers and all that...I guess we just have to agree to disagree, but I see no evidence of any gods and why should it be your god? What if you meet Zeus at heaven's gate?
boc1953 3 weeks ago
@boc1953 The only point in your comment i disagree with is "agree to disagree" We should not allow them to force there fairy tails on us! Excellent comment otherwise! Thumbs up.
gazamused 3 weeks ago
@gazamused Thanks for the comment gazamused. "Agree to disagree" only came up after exhaustive conversation with BornAgainRN and I realised he was beyond reason and certainly beyond rational conversation on You Tube! I didn't mean to infer that religion should be left alone! I think we need to keep trying to educate believers as best we can and hopefully prevent some of the barbaric practices carried out around the world in the name of religious indoctrination!
boc1953 3 weeks ago
@boc1953 (cont) based on past exchanges, by now you should have the insight, that nothing is going to change either of our minds about our worldview.The only thing we can agree on, is that one of us is definitely wrong, & since neither of us has died, we can't prove the nonexistence of an afterlife, but Jesus can.As atheists Richard Dawkins & H.G Wells admit to His real existence, the atheist is left to ponder why couldn't the Romans produce His body to disprove resurrection? (cont)
BornAgainRN 3 weeks ago
@boc1953 (cont) no offense but if you want to debate, don't be offended, but I won't respond, since my goal is to spread the truth of the hope that lies in anyone who trusts Jesus as their personal Lord & Savior. The fact that you reject the evidence God gives you for His existence is why the Bible says, 'the fool says there is no God'-not for the purpose to insult, but rather to show that atheists who maintain the worldview of scientism despite the evidence is the real delusion-not God
BornAgainRN 3 weeks ago
@BornAgainRN That is the whole reason why I reject gods! The total lack of any evidence that can be shown to be conclusive! I'm a rational person. I can't help that! That's how god made me....
boc1953 3 weeks ago
@taofist Couldn't agree more taofist!
boc1953 6 months ago
@boc1953 Thanks, boc! U too! :)
taofist 6 months ago 2
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taofist 6 months ago
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Harold Camping was RIGHT about May 21, click on my channel to see...
youneekk 6 months ago
John MacArthur is the voice crying out in the wilderness today!
EveryKneeShallBow123 7 months ago
John MacArthur is definitely being used by God... I love that man and he is such an encouragement for the body of Christ.
whezt1029 7 months ago
@whezt1029 With all due respect, I think John M is being used by satan not God. He knows better yet keeps twisting scripture.
chicraig6421 7 months ago 11
John MacArthur speaks the truth
ForceofWill10 7 months ago 2
John MacArthur: dogmatic douchefuck.
McTaggStar 7 months ago
The Bible is just a book. If you place absolute faith in ANY book, you are being foolish, because ANYONE can write ANYTHING Try it now! Write that you are God! Don't worry - it won't come true BECAUSE IT IS ONLY WORDS! Anything written has to be tested properly against reality. & it is because of THIS basic principle that Fundamentalist, literal doctrine fails & continues to POINTLESSLY oppress people for things that are safe, healthy, & beautiful - like homosexual loving. Shame on you, John M.
taofist 7 months ago
@taofist Ok, but write a nearly 800,000 word book but under the same conditions that the Bible was written (40 different authors, over 1500 years, in 3 different languages, on 3 different continents, in times of peace & war, by insignificant shepherds, fishermen, self-proclaimed prophets of God & disciples of Jesus), & by the way, it must contain no errors or contradictions, fulfill hundreds of prophecies LITERALLY, & be supported by science, history, & archaeology. Give it a shot.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN "...fulfill hundreds of prophecies LITERALLY, & be supported by science, history, & archaeology..." What nonsense!
taofist 6 months ago
@taofist, the fact that you would make that comment ("What nonsense!") just shows that you have never STUDIED the Bible & compared it to science, history, archaeology, & real world events. Just because YOU PERSONALLY & SUBJECTIVELY don't BELIEVE in God or BELIEVE in the claims in the Bible, doesn't mean they aren't true. GENUINE faith, whether it be atheism or theism, is based on OBJECTIVE, open-minded RESEARCH - not 'straw-man' cut-and-paste arguments you have heard from other sources. Try it
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN Quite the contrary. I have, in fact, studied the Bible FOR YEARS, along with philosophy, and many other sacred texts and beliefs of all cultures, trying to find the scientific basis for literal belief that you claim... and guess what? All that "OBJECTIVE, open-minded RESEARCH" that you claim is just close-minded attempts to confirm conclusions already made; half-truths wrapped in wishful-thinking; a truth-value so low as to qualify as DELUSION, or, as Campbell says, a "misreading".
taofist 6 months ago
@taofist, I have no doubt that you have READ the Bible (or at least parts of it), but I doubt you STUDIED it. For instance, the Bible states the universe had a beginning, rather than being eternal; that the earth is a 3-dimensional sphere, rather than being flat, & that it turns on an axis; it describes the earth's hydraulic system; predicted the Medo-Persian, Greek, Roman, & 'Revived Roman' Empires before they existed; non-Christian history & archaeology also support the claims of the Bible.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@taofist, from my experience with other atheists on YouTube, FB, etc., it's not that there isn't evidence for the existance of God, but rather when credible evidence is presented, atheists usually choose to reject it, simply because it disagrees with their unscientific & unobservable worldview, such as the universe created itself out of nothing, then after the earth formed, living matter 'evolved' from non-living matter, which 'evolved' into us. THAT is the REAL 'delusion.'
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@taofist, lastly, I would not use Harold Camping as 'amo' to discredit theism. The vast majority of Christians were actually the ones publically discrediting his claims, because he was importing his PERSONAL interpretations of Scripture to support his false claims, rather than letting Scripture speak for itself, which states 'NO ONE will know the day nor the hour of His return.' I agree with you that your study of other religions cause you to doubt God because their claims are NOT supportive.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN Wow.
1. Joseph CAMPBELL - not Harold Camping. :P
2. I don't think you know the first thing about science, or "credible" scientific evidence. For example, you believe (with 100% certainty!) vast, untestable things based on claims written in an old book. You believe the universe was created by a bigger-than-universe-sized Person with supernatural powers.
Add these to what I said before, & you'll forgive me if I'm unimpressed by your straw-man attacks on the "atheist worldview".
taofist 6 months ago 2
@taofist, 1. Ok, my bad, you only gave a last name. I assumed Camping, since he's been used as a springboard by atheists, using his false prophecies to lump him in with other Christians. However, my assumption was wrong - I will admit to you WHEN I am wrong. :) However, if anyone has 'misread'' is CAMPBELL. I would not base your understanding of the meaning of Scripture from him. 2. So, which of the things I just presented to you are 'untestable things' & 'half-truth delusions?' You claimed it.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@taofist, also can you PROVE your atheistic worldview (how the universe came into existance, how non-living material 'evolved' into a living organism, how a single-celled organism 'evolved' into human beings over millions of years) by strictly using observable & testable science, rather than on 'theoretic arguments' that aren't supported by REAL testable & observable science? Show me.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN Unlike YOUR worldview, MINE is able to contain gaps where there isn't any real evidence, and I'm allowed to call fantasy fantasy, and hypotheses guesswork, rather than pretend to myself that I know for certain. I'm also free to move from a literal interpretation of mythic material, to a symbolic, metaphorical, psychological one which fits the ACTUAL facts better.
taofist 6 months ago 2
@taofist, actually, you didn't really address either of my questions, so let me re-word them. 1. If what I believe isn't based on facts, then which of the things I provided isn't factual? Please address each one I have provided & explain to me the specific claims I have provided that aren't factual. 2. Since your 'belief' in the existance of the universe & life contains gaps in your knowledge, then how can you say what you are believing is true, since you can't back it up? Isn't that delusional?
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@taofist, in regards to my knowledge of science, I have degrees in science, both at the bachelor level, & courses taken at the Masters level, so I am familiar with Laws such as the 1st & 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics, the Inverse Square Law, the theory of relativity, etc. None of these scientific laws & theories actually support abiogenesis or evolution, but rather that the universe is finite & did not create itself out of nothing. Jumping around in your belief is NOT scientific, but philosophlical
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@taofist, furthermore, if your 'beliefs' are based on 'fantasy,' 'guesswork,' on 'where there isn't any real evidence,' then if you're intellectually honest, than based on your 'gaps' of knowledge, then you can't say there is DEFINIETLY no God. Based on how you base your belief system, it sounds like you are the one believing in a delusion, not me. At least what the Bible says about the existance of the universe, the shape of the earth, the rotation of the earth is based on observable science.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN Since you ask, your nonsense claims include (but are not limited to) 1. The idea that the Bible can be relied on as "proof" of its own supernatural claims;
2. the idea that the Bible's supernatural claims are adequately supported by those parts of the Bible that happen to correspond with mundane facts;
3. The idea that mythological texts are to be read as scientific treatises about the physical world, as opposed to mystically revealing the psychological one;
(cont...)
taofist 6 months ago 2
@taofist, 1. I never said the Bible can be relied on as 'proof' of its own supernatural claims. You, like most atheists, misunderstand that there are truths based on proof AND evidence. Can you tell me the difference between 'proof' & 'evidence?' 2. The fact that the universe was created out of nothing is a miracle, but as an atheist you seem to be having trouble understanding how to recognize a miracle. 3. You are using the default position that the Bible is myth, even though you weren't there.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN 1. "proof: evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth." You got trash for proof. Sorry.
2. "Miracles" are sweet, poetic ideas that have no scientific value.
3. The Bible reads as a mythic text. Again I refer you to the works of Joseph Campbell, and also Carl Jung.
4. The onus of proving God's existence falls on you. So far, the null hypothesis is winning.
5. They're still just theories. There's every chance they will change.
(cont...)
taofist 6 months ago 2
@taofist 1. I never said ALL of the Bible is based on proof. I asked you if you knew the difference between proof & evidence, which I'm still waiting for a response. Actually, as time has elapsed, more claims of the Bible HAS been proven, & NONE has been disproven. 2. Miracles are not based on science, yes, but that doesn't mean they don't occur. 3. Campell said the claims of Genesis aren't based on science, again Genesis 1:1. 4. Again, evidence is NOT the same as proof.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN 1. Evidence is a fact or situation that suggests something might be true. Proof is a fact or situation that removes all doubt. The claims of the Bible that have been proven go nowhere near to proving your Doctrine true, and the alleged "evidence" for God's divinity and authority is just evidence for human psychology and its quirks;
2. Miracles are a nonsense-concept, ouside poetry;
3. your answer to this one makes no sense at all;
4. You've skipped point 4 altogether;
(cont...)
taofist 6 months ago
@taofist, Lastly, regarding miracles. They aren't 'sweet poetic ideas.' Miracles are what happen when God implants an event into the universe that can't be explained by science. Let me ask you, if miracles are real, how would you prove them scientifically? You couldn't. In order to recognize a miracle, you would first need a normal event to be able to then identify a miracle. Maybe that's what your difficulty is in accepting miracles, you will only believe them if they can be proven by science.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN (cont...)
6. I reject your Biblical "scientific claims" because, even if they were accurate, they don't directly prove the literal truth of the "god" stuff in it;
7. Wow. You just dissed the Theory of Evolution - in favour of Genesis!?!! Genesis? which, apart from its fairy-tale character as a piece of writing (talking snakes, etc) includes TWO (Adam's Rib & 7 Days) creation stories that contradict each other in (a) literary character (b) timeline & (c) archaeological source;
(cont)
taofist 6 months ago 2
@taofist 5. However, truth doesn't change. If the universe was infinite, we would never arrive at this point in time, because there would not be any starting moment of time. Eternity past is not scientific, so the universe needed a beginning & something to create it that itself is eternal, & not physical, because the physical universe is based on cause & effect. Whether you like it or not, an eternal, non-physical entity is the most logical explanation to base a belief on the origin of universe.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN 5. The truth may not change, but human mapping of it is always incomplete; your statements about the "logical necessity" of an Eternal Creator (or, in fact, a Creator at all!!) are completely without foundation. More likely, your limited human mind can't bear to think there's no sentient being there, or can't bear to leave things open-ended...;
6. You can't provide any scientifically proven claims from the Bible that prove God's existence. Try it.
(cont...)
taofist 6 months ago
@taofist lastly neither of us can 'prove' how the universe came into existance from nothing, nor how life came about in the first place. We each have our worldviews.The question we have to ask ourselves, based on the best available evidence through science, strict logic, & experience, which makes the most sense? Scientific laws have DISPROVEN the claims of abiogenesis, & outside of personal belief, evolution of nonliving matter to living matter to the evolution of man is NOTsupportive by science
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
6. Again, specifically claim which of my scientific claims I provided you from the Bible are not scientifically accurate, I am still waiting for a response. You said that the claims of the Bible are not scientific. They are, you just choose to reject them. 7. That's because there is NO observable, scientific evidence that non-living matter evolves into living matter, then evolves into multi-celled organisms, then evolves into human beings. You believe it because you would told this & accepted it
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
7. (cont.) Genesis at least tells us that the universe had a beginning (not eternal), which is supported by science, while abiogenesis & an eternal universe it not. I think your difficulty is that you hate the notion that since the Bible does make scientific claims like this accurately, long before science was able to prove it, you don't want to admit that the rest of the unproveable parts might actually be true too. Genesis 1 & Genesis 2 are not TWO different creation stories (cont).
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN 7. Your tales of what science supports are a wriggling mass of half-truths and innaccuracies that I can't be bothered sorting thru. As for Genesis (a)"7 days"- Canaanite text;God is called Elohim; order of creation is plants, birds and fish, mammals and reptiles, and finally man to reign over all created before him; (b) "Adam's rib" - Judah text; God is called YHWH; man comes first, plants & animals after. Lots of other differences in narrative character, etc etc.
taofist 6 months ago
@taofist, again, this just shows your lack of understanding of the Bible. The term 'God' has different names is Hebrew. When using it as a proper name, Yĕhovah (or YHWH) is used. When speaking of Him as Judge or Ruler, Elohiym, is used. Again, if you had read my previous post, Genesis 1 is strictly about the 7 day creation, while Genesis 2:8 talks about what happens starting with day 6 in the Garden of Eden. I'm seeing that your rejection is based more on your not listening.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
7 (cont). Genesis 1 is about the creation week. Genesis 2 is an expansion of the 6th day of creation in the garden (Genesis 2:8). You claim to have 'studied' the Bible for 'years,' yet you have this wrong. This just shows me your 'study' is based on what other atheists tell you what they 'think' the Bible is saying. Archaeolgy actually has proven the existance of the Canaanites, the Hittites, & other events of Genesis, which atheists at one time said didn't exist, because there was 'no proof.'
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN (...cont.)
4. The idea that I believe that "there's DEFINIETLY (sic) no God;
5. The idea that the "finiteness of the universe" is (a) certain & (b) proves your particular Creation story;
6. Your definition of "delusional". The true definition is "an erroneous belief that is held in the face of evidence to the contrary" (Note: "evidence" here means reliable evidence - ie NOT the Bible);
(cont...)
taofist 6 months ago 2
@taofist 4. Since you are the one making the claim that there DEFINITELY is no God - prove it using science. 5. Don't know what science book you are reading, but most reliable scientific theories tell us that the universe is finite, otherwise, we would never arrive at this point in time. 6. You claimed that the Bible is not supported by science, I gave SPECIFIC scientific claims from the Bible hundreds, even THOUSANDS, of years before scientists could 'prove' them, yet you still reject them.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN (...cont)
7. The mistaken notion that my "belief" in certain as-yet-unproven theories is of the same character as your "Faith". It is not. My beliefs are subject to constant challenge in my own mind - ie I'm ready to disrespectfully question every bit of any one of them that doesn't fit the best evidence available ( and, if I'm lax in this, I have plenty of friends who will do it for me!). To me, theories are merely vehicles that I'm taking for a test-drive - not objects of worship.
taofist 6 months ago
@taofist, actually much of your world view based on your 'belief' isn't based on ANY evidence (abiogenesis, evolution, etc.), while my 'faith' is actually BASED on evidence. Faith is NOT the same as a 'blind belief,' but rather furnished by evidence, but NOT proof. If you TRULY question your beliefs based on the best available evidence, then if you're honest with yourself & not blinded by your worldview, you'll see that the best explanation for the universe is the Biblical one (Genesis 1:!).
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@taofist, lastly, before we exchange any further, I would like you to answer a couple of questions/comments: 1. IF there really is a God Who you may have simply rejected despite there being evidence for His existence would you have a desire to want to know if He really exists? 2. IF this God is the God of the Bible, would you accept Him? 3. Do you consider yourself to be a 'hard' atheist or a 'soft' one? 4. I noticed that not once during this exchange have you acknowledged any truths I presented
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN 8. To your last questions: 1.Yes, because it would be a vital part of reality. That's how I moved from Belief to abandoning the Doctrine as a failed vehicle; 2. I'd accept His existence, but not His morality. After all, He HAS shown Himself, Biblically, to be a hypocrite, a homophobe, a mass killer & a child-abuser, who, for all His power, behaves like a petulant baby in a sandbox, filled with jealousy, & bullying those weaker than Himself to ensure their worship. A mob-boss God.
taofist 6 months ago 2
@taofist, based on your answer, you have a very trivial view of the Bible, as I have noticed from most atheists. Your sources are like trying to understand the heart by researching a book on cooking & basing your beliefs from it. If you really want to understand the God of the Bible, read a good study Bible, otherwise, your views are bound to be inaccurate & full of errors. The fact that you wouldn't accept the God of the universe if He was the God of the Bible shows your lack of objectivity.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN (cont) 8: q3. I'd only be a "hard" atheist relative to YOUR or John M's Fundamentalist worldview. I'm ready to see reality as being sentient, somehow; it's just that the evidence for it is very poor indeed. All you seem to be presenting me with are naive, literalistic readings of a bunch of mythic texts that don't even belong to the same time period or cultural situation, mish-mashed together by churchmen having "conferences" under the Roman Emperor's watchful, political, eye...
taofist 6 months ago 7
@taofist, actually, 'hard atheism' is a term I've used atheists use too. You are right the evidence is very poor, that is for evolution. So, again, PROVE to me that evolution is true, using strictly observable & scientific means. This is what I am trying to get you to do - you accuse theists of not being scientitic, yet many of your own belefs that you freely admit are based on 'fantasy.' The Bible doesn't change, because it doesn't need to - it has stood the test of time.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
Again, the Bible isn't a 'mythic text' just because you said so. Sir Walter Reilly acknowledged that the Apostle Luke is one of the most accurate historians of all time, based soley on his non-biblical writings. I can see now that your opinion of the Bible, like your 'science' isn't based on objectivity, but rather on a misunderstanding of the text, based on poor research. The Bible was first penned 3,500 years ago, the Roman Empire didn't exist until 1000's of years later.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago
@BornAgainRN My mention of the Roman Empire was just one of the many revisions and editions of the Bible THAT WE KNOW ABOUT. It is astonishing to me that you can believe material that has had centuries of editing, and has gone thru & has come from so many different cultural and historical contexts. Your discourse indicates a stubborn naivety re human nature, particularly the role of the dreaming mind, the mythic imagination, the role of bias and childhood conditioning, & problems of perception.
taofist 6 months ago
@taofist, actually, your lack of understanding of how the Bible was put together is the real problem. It wasn't 'edited' like you think. The oldest copy of the book of numbers predates Jesus by over 600 years - & it's word-for-word what we have today, so no editing has been involved. The same can be said for the Dead Sea Scrolls. The fact that it has come from so many different cultural backgrounds is what should amaze you, the fact it has remained inerrant & preserved over thousands of years.
BornAgainRN 6 months ago