Chopin took studies that nobody would have ever wanted to do, and he wrote the exercises as we now know as his etudes. What he did in addition, is that he took theses studies and made them much more than studies, he made them into masterpieces. That's what people need to take away from his etudes.
My favorite recording of this piece. I have never heard anyone communicate the fluency of the arpeggios of Arrua while making it seem like a romantic, melodic piece. A monumental achievement of its own and a credit to his artistry and monolithic technique, it is, I believe, his Magnum Opis. The Passion of this piece and the unrelenting tides of the ocean can be heard beneath the flurries of the percussive piano, and I feel that Chopin himself would approve of this performance.
I've always felt Arrau was one of the great pianists who didn't get nearly as much recognition as he deserved. Chopin, Mozart, Beethoven, Liszt...he played them all and wonderfully. The same can be said of Richter as well. Both of them had the misfortune of being contempories of Horowitz & Rubinstein and were thus unfairly overshadowed.
@dmcII I agree with you only half ... Although Arrau style is unique and their sound is fantastic, he never abused his prodigious gifts of virtuoso, like many of his colleagues contemporaneus (Horowitz, Cziffra, Richter, etc). He never sought recognition at any cost, especially in relation to the work of artists whose works he played and to which he gave himself completely. However, for many people (critics, etc, and me too) Arrau was the greatest piano interpreter from twentieth century.
@Ray0X0 I don't disagree at all. My point was that Rubinstein & Horowitz seemed to garner more recognition at the expense of equally talented (or perhaps more talented depending on one's view) artists such as Arrau. For as powerful a pianist as Arrau was, he should have been celebrated more during those years. Perhaps it was due to his humility as you say.
The clarity of notes during the C major resolution section, when the arpeggi come back down and you get that 4-accented-note-melody 00:25, holds a very special sound, nice one Arrau. Gives me nostalgia
@LeonardThePianist DISAGREE. ARRAU IS SUPERIOR IN EVERY LEVEL TO HOROWITZ. TECHNICALLY, CLARITY, LEGATO, EVENESS, AND OF COURSE, SPIRITUALLY AND SOULWISE
I must say (in light of the raging debate over Arrau and Chopin that has taken place here), I have tremendous respect for Arrau as an artist (his musicianship and interpretive power are nothing short of colossal), and I can see/hear where he's coming from and what he's driving at.
However, I'd also that Backhaus, Richter, Cortot are closer to what I want to hear in this etude. I'm especially fawning over a live Richter recording from Prague right now, and it's nothing short of phenomenal...
@OzzyKingofKings Cortot is a very good musician, and was one of the "Last Romantics" . However he takes this etude and plays it as lets say a piece of music, and forget the musical study. Which i can agree as well, because while you are learning this piece, you learn it as an etude, but you play it as a work of art. I also uploaded some videos, including this etude. Would you care taking a look on my channel?
Arrau does it differently.He had one great technique so I m sure it was an interpretive decision . The pedal is not held completely down during handsrelays up untilfinal declamation where it sounds more elisioned . He wanted the individ notes to stand out SECCO so it would be a rockier fight also meaning other fingers are given more strengh and weight .not the easy way to play this etude by any means..Backhaus still sounds more terrifying with the melody pronounced .
i have never understood this pianist...as grea as he was i have never liked his way of playing.... only one CD i like very much from him...Moyart piano sonatas...there he sounds really great... like it was not even him
"A further evidence for playing powerful passage work is given after a crescendo where he demands il piu forte possibile stretched over 4 quarters, hence applying it to the semi-quavers and certainly not to the vocal melody."
So why would Chopin continue to go to the trouble of highlighting the melodic line of those bars with accent signs? You think he expects a player to accent while EVERY note is literally as loud as possible? I'm afraid that you haven't thought that argument through...
Perhaps you also criticise Horowitz, for starting many repeated chords in the climax of Scriabin's op. 8 no. 12 at a mere mf (where Scriabin wrote FFF)? Horowitz knew that playing them all the same kills all sense of sustain and limits the possibility of crescendos through progressions.
If you would criticise for that, you have no idea about the musical issues of pianistic voicing. If you wouldn't, then you are being utterly inconsistent to claim that every note should be loud here.
exactly, just becuase scriabin wrote the piece doesnt mean hes a better pianist. being a better composer doenst make you a better pianist, and all this nonsense about "he wrote it, therefore he plays it the best becuase he understands it" fuck off. (sorry cziffra1980 this wasnt a rant at you :P)
Sorry, but you misunderstand my point. My point is NOT that Horowitz understood the piece better than Scriabin. My point is that Scriabin writing FFF doesn't constititute an instruction to play both melody and accompaniment notes at precisely the same volume.
It's fair to say that a composer doesn't necessarily play their music the best. However, a composer's performance ALWAYS reveals something about intentions that could not be notated (even if they aren't a great performer).
cziffra1980 - you are right about Horowitz/Scriabin, and about Arrau. Great pianist though he is, Arrau completely misunderstands this piece. His heavy arpeggios sound dreadful. Chopin's accents show the melodic line is in the bass, with a second line in the discant, and the rest has to retreat into the background. It's like an inverted op. 25 no. 1. This is a study in tone, contrast and control, not an exercise in fortissimo arpeggios. S. Richter does it right, as does Cortot.
Misunderstands? THIS IS a study in FORTE arpeggios. Can't you read?. Starts F and is thus marked until the end. It is then FFF. I guess the cresc-decresc has you confused. One can do that between F-FFF! Those that scamper lightly and rapidly through this piece are faking. That's what Arrau's recording is about. Each etude is an exercise, after all, and is meant to single out certain difficulties. 25#12, is ABOUT maintaining a forte sound. Does the score say MF, MP or P? NO it does not.
manhattanvor - I may be mistaken, but I am neither unable to read nor confused, nor do Richter and Cortot "fake" anything. Also, all good pianists layer the sound, so an general dynamic marking does not mean every note is played with that dynamic. Arrau is a truly great pianist, but I happen to disagree with his take on this piece. I believe Cortot's view of the piece is correct, as explained in detail in his edition of the Chopin Etudes. It is his view which is reflected in my prior comment.
@manhattanvor jesus christ, so youve seen some F letters in your sheet music...it was later named ocean, and guess why, because it sounds like that. i ve seen a tidal wave just once in my life
"We should not forget Op.25 no. 12 is also an Etude for achieving a nicer sound."
Exactly! It's not a technical etude in equality. It's an etude in MUSICAL VOICING! The melodic notes CANNOT sound 'nice' (or rather, 'sonorous' would be a better word), when the melodic line is instantly swamped (under an instant barrage of equally loud sounds that accumulate upon the pedal and detract all attention from the primary line).
i agree. I dont get how other people do not realise this. They fail to realise that chopin's etudes stretch far further than just mere studies, they are works of art, and real pieces of music. Chopin's etudes are not just about technical development, they are about artistry, phrasing and musicianship also.
@DualThunder Thank you! This is no Etude, it is a soul study. From the very depths! If you are blessed with the physical technique to play it, then DELVE! This is not my favorite interpretation but I do love Arrau.
When you can sustain the melodic line like David Smith, go ahead and upload your performance and say again that it's 'easier' than banging it all out forte. 100s of pianists have achieved monotonous loud performances like this one. Few have achieved the sense of sustain that is possible.
Chopin admired Bellini and opera. This should be a MELODY in a storm. Not a mess of equal sounds.
I repeat: Would you play the melody and accompaniment at a single level in the fortes of the Barcarolle???
Nice strawman argument, but I didn't say to play it piano. I said it needs to be balanced, sufficiently to generate a true melodic line. The louder the accompaniment, the more monotonous the sound and the greater the limitation upon swelling.
Fine, but that doesn't mean you have to swamp the melody. Once the melody and bass have established the sounds, the greater the volume on the following note, the greater the detraction from the important line (and the greater the limitation upon the possibility of crescendo for the peaks)
1: The basic dynamics can be established by melody and bass alone. The greater the volume on the next quaver, the less the melodic line can be made to appear to sustain. Notes in such a close register detract CONSIDERABLY from the line. Listen to David Edward Smith's performance. He understands how to balance the parts without compromising drama. Arrau has a dramatic wall of sound but melody? He failed...
Incidentally he avoids sfz because the melody shouldn't be lumpy. It should sustain!
@cziffra1980 disagree with you, this etude has/needs voicing of melodic lines, just like bach's music does (after all this etude was inspired by bach, whom chopin admred/liked above all) that doesnt mean to bang the melody and play eveythingsofterand notclear. this is a BIG mistake in interpretation . arrau folows te score and there result is uniqe and PHENOMENAL
@arturon111 So where are all the melodic lines here? They are lost in a swarm of banged notes. Your idea of bringing out melodic lines is to pummel every individually note forcefully and percussively?
@arturon111 In fact, the pedalling is so bloody awful here that the melodic line frequently doesn't even sustain long enough to come anywhere near connecting to the next note! To suggest that this approach makes lines clearer is ridiculous.And voicing the accompaniment with some sensitivity doesn't have to mean being unclear.
Nonsense! Just because Chopin didn't specifically mark it does not mean that he wanted the melody swamped by noisy accompaniment. Are you also going to suggest that nobody should ever use dynamics to distinguish melody and accompaniment (eg. in the thick chords of the Barcarolle?), unless the composer directly specifies it? Use some common sense.
The reality of this study is that almost everyone plays the quavers too loud- killing the continuity of what should ought to be a vocal melody.
wow. i love arrau. he brings out voices in this etude that others don't pay attention to. my only criticism is that more pedal is needed. my favorite chopin etude by far. ty filipeo.
I think he purposely did that. It's his way of separating the second group with a more different sound. If you like pedal try listening to Horowitz's version; an also superb version.
have you heard cziffra's version? it's staggering. but i do love arrau. honestly i have to say i was a little disappointed by the horowitz version but as always it's unique. i love cortot and backhaus as well.
Arrau's pedalling is a little strange!
gerardbedecarter 4 months ago
Chopin took studies that nobody would have ever wanted to do, and he wrote the exercises as we now know as his etudes. What he did in addition, is that he took theses studies and made them much more than studies, he made them into masterpieces. That's what people need to take away from his etudes.
Dnich1000 5 months ago
My favorite recording of this piece. I have never heard anyone communicate the fluency of the arpeggios of Arrua while making it seem like a romantic, melodic piece. A monumental achievement of its own and a credit to his artistry and monolithic technique, it is, I believe, his Magnum Opis. The Passion of this piece and the unrelenting tides of the ocean can be heard beneath the flurries of the percussive piano, and I feel that Chopin himself would approve of this performance.
Jragir 11 months ago
he makes music with every single note, amazing pianist, my favorite..
martsaflyin 1 year ago
I've always felt Arrau was one of the great pianists who didn't get nearly as much recognition as he deserved. Chopin, Mozart, Beethoven, Liszt...he played them all and wonderfully. The same can be said of Richter as well. Both of them had the misfortune of being contempories of Horowitz & Rubinstein and were thus unfairly overshadowed.
RIP Don Claudio and thank you....!
dmcII 1 year ago 2
@dmcII I agree with you only half ... Although Arrau style is unique and their sound is fantastic, he never abused his prodigious gifts of virtuoso, like many of his colleagues contemporaneus (Horowitz, Cziffra, Richter, etc). He never sought recognition at any cost, especially in relation to the work of artists whose works he played and to which he gave himself completely. However, for many people (critics, etc, and me too) Arrau was the greatest piano interpreter from twentieth century.
Ray0X0 9 months ago
@Ray0X0 I don't disagree at all. My point was that Rubinstein & Horowitz seemed to garner more recognition at the expense of equally talented (or perhaps more talented depending on one's view) artists such as Arrau. For as powerful a pianist as Arrau was, he should have been celebrated more during those years. Perhaps it was due to his humility as you say.
dmcII 9 months ago
Clear
YUKAICHUNG1 1 year ago
Amazing approach. You can really hear the vibes in the even rythm and sound of the arpegios. Its like an ocean!
Alborz95 1 year ago
arrau was born to give us chopin the way chopin would.
vertosomnium 1 year ago
The clarity of notes during the C major resolution section, when the arpeggi come back down and you get that 4-accented-note-melody 00:25, holds a very special sound, nice one Arrau. Gives me nostalgia
johnalt16 1 year ago
cosmic.
mordent17 1 year ago
i reall really wish i could play this song X')
deathnotelinkinpark1 1 year ago
Very well ! ! !
Darrning 1 year ago
its great but no one has ever played this crazy piece as Horowitz did...Horowitz interpretation tops
LeonardThePianist 2 years ago
I trust Arrau's loyalty to score, but you have to hear Cziffra's version, for me the most impressive performance.
Ray0X0 2 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Horowitz=Fail
He just doesn't match up. He takes way to much fucking liberty and pays no respect to the composer....
Sorry... Had to get that out.
Jragir 2 years ago
Richter is also pretty impressive.
meredith218461 2 years ago
Don´t say it like something general friend, say it like your humble opinion, that is better
turuladeburro 2 years ago
@LeonardThePianist DISAGREE. ARRAU IS SUPERIOR IN EVERY LEVEL TO HOROWITZ. TECHNICALLY, CLARITY, LEGATO, EVENESS, AND OF COURSE, SPIRITUALLY AND SOULWISE
arturon111 2 months ago
I must say (in light of the raging debate over Arrau and Chopin that has taken place here), I have tremendous respect for Arrau as an artist (his musicianship and interpretive power are nothing short of colossal), and I can see/hear where he's coming from and what he's driving at.
However, I'd also that Backhaus, Richter, Cortot are closer to what I want to hear in this etude. I'm especially fawning over a live Richter recording from Prague right now, and it's nothing short of phenomenal...
OzzyKingofKings 2 years ago
@OzzyKingofKings Cortot is a very good musician, and was one of the "Last Romantics" . However he takes this etude and plays it as lets say a piece of music, and forget the musical study. Which i can agree as well, because while you are learning this piece, you learn it as an etude, but you play it as a work of art. I also uploaded some videos, including this etude. Would you care taking a look on my channel?
Martel211996 1 year ago
Arrau does it differently.He had one great technique so I m sure it was an interpretive decision . The pedal is not held completely down during handsrelays up untilfinal declamation where it sounds more elisioned . He wanted the individ notes to stand out SECCO so it would be a rockier fight also meaning other fingers are given more strengh and weight .not the easy way to play this etude by any means..Backhaus still sounds more terrifying with the melody pronounced .
lovesGenet 2 years ago 2
I'd like to see the hands playing... is there some video to see how the pianist plays this work?
Ray0X0 2 years ago
i have never understood this pianist...as grea as he was i have never liked his way of playing.... only one CD i like very much from him...Moyart piano sonatas...there he sounds really great... like it was not even him
bassann22 2 years ago
Op.25 no.12 cortot
Deimosxsz 2 years ago
hmm...less benefit of pedal, it sounds more precise.
lovepeace20 3 years ago 2
It's this called ocean?. I like the pedal in this piece. Nor even in the climax he uses it. Preffer Cziffra or Horowitz.
Deimosxsz 2 years ago
WOOOOW
i just got this piece from my teacher and its fast ...... i love it thought
u get to show your techinique
i just finished playing opera 25 no 2 also ..... beautiful etude
signindea 3 years ago
Opéra! :-p
I think a musician who's able to play this must know "op." stands for "opus" ^^
Yoyoioio92 2 years ago
YEs! Thats My Foult! OPUS! 25 Number.2
signindea 2 years ago
Comment removed
cbdesade 3 years ago
The music is goddamned sublime. Quit picking at it, dimwits!
cbdesade 3 years ago
"A further evidence for playing powerful passage work is given after a crescendo where he demands il piu forte possibile stretched over 4 quarters, hence applying it to the semi-quavers and certainly not to the vocal melody."
So why would Chopin continue to go to the trouble of highlighting the melodic line of those bars with accent signs? You think he expects a player to accent while EVERY note is literally as loud as possible? I'm afraid that you haven't thought that argument through...
cziffra1980 3 years ago
lol nice!
Phrygian12 3 years ago
Perhaps you also criticise Horowitz, for starting many repeated chords in the climax of Scriabin's op. 8 no. 12 at a mere mf (where Scriabin wrote FFF)? Horowitz knew that playing them all the same kills all sense of sustain and limits the possibility of crescendos through progressions.
If you would criticise for that, you have no idea about the musical issues of pianistic voicing. If you wouldn't, then you are being utterly inconsistent to claim that every note should be loud here.
cziffra1980 3 years ago
exactly, just becuase scriabin wrote the piece doesnt mean hes a better pianist. being a better composer doenst make you a better pianist, and all this nonsense about "he wrote it, therefore he plays it the best becuase he understands it" fuck off. (sorry cziffra1980 this wasnt a rant at you :P)
ljoekelsoey4 3 years ago
Sorry, but you misunderstand my point. My point is NOT that Horowitz understood the piece better than Scriabin. My point is that Scriabin writing FFF doesn't constititute an instruction to play both melody and accompaniment notes at precisely the same volume.
It's fair to say that a composer doesn't necessarily play their music the best. However, a composer's performance ALWAYS reveals something about intentions that could not be notated (even if they aren't a great performer).
cziffra1980 3 years ago
cziffra1980 - you are right about Horowitz/Scriabin, and about Arrau. Great pianist though he is, Arrau completely misunderstands this piece. His heavy arpeggios sound dreadful. Chopin's accents show the melodic line is in the bass, with a second line in the discant, and the rest has to retreat into the background. It's like an inverted op. 25 no. 1. This is a study in tone, contrast and control, not an exercise in fortissimo arpeggios. S. Richter does it right, as does Cortot.
123mortimer456 3 years ago
Yeah, agreed completely. Don't miss the film of David Edward Smith also. It's as fine as any performance I've heard.
cziffra1980 3 years ago
Misunderstands? THIS IS a study in FORTE arpeggios. Can't you read?. Starts F and is thus marked until the end. It is then FFF. I guess the cresc-decresc has you confused. One can do that between F-FFF! Those that scamper lightly and rapidly through this piece are faking. That's what Arrau's recording is about. Each etude is an exercise, after all, and is meant to single out certain difficulties. 25#12, is ABOUT maintaining a forte sound. Does the score say MF, MP or P? NO it does not.
manhattanvor 2 years ago 6
manhattanvor - I may be mistaken, but I am neither unable to read nor confused, nor do Richter and Cortot "fake" anything. Also, all good pianists layer the sound, so an general dynamic marking does not mean every note is played with that dynamic. Arrau is a truly great pianist, but I happen to disagree with his take on this piece. I believe Cortot's view of the piece is correct, as explained in detail in his edition of the Chopin Etudes. It is his view which is reflected in my prior comment.
123mortimer456 2 years ago
yes actualyl at one point it starts at a piano and then cresundoes to a double F
spike2133876 2 years ago
@manhattanvor nazi
Mikujo 1 year ago
@manhattanvor jesus christ, so youve seen some F letters in your sheet music...it was later named ocean, and guess why, because it sounds like that. i ve seen a tidal wave just once in my life
BlazeKenny 11 months ago
@manhattanvor *sigh*
dagadbm 8 months ago
@manhattanvor .... the forte is acoustic not physiological.
gerardbedecarter 4 months ago
"We should not forget Op.25 no. 12 is also an Etude for achieving a nicer sound."
Exactly! It's not a technical etude in equality. It's an etude in MUSICAL VOICING! The melodic notes CANNOT sound 'nice' (or rather, 'sonorous' would be a better word), when the melodic line is instantly swamped (under an instant barrage of equally loud sounds that accumulate upon the pedal and detract all attention from the primary line).
cziffra1980 3 years ago
i agree. I dont get how other people do not realise this. They fail to realise that chopin's etudes stretch far further than just mere studies, they are works of art, and real pieces of music. Chopin's etudes are not just about technical development, they are about artistry, phrasing and musicianship also.
DualThunder 3 years ago 29
@DualThunder Thank you! This is no Etude, it is a soul study. From the very depths! If you are blessed with the physical technique to play it, then DELVE! This is not my favorite interpretation but I do love Arrau.
dancersover40 9 months ago
@dancersover40 Hi, could you cite your perfered interpretation? Thanks.
robert982 2 months ago in playlist Claudio Arrau (1903 -- 1991)
When you can sustain the melodic line like David Smith, go ahead and upload your performance and say again that it's 'easier' than banging it all out forte. 100s of pianists have achieved monotonous loud performances like this one. Few have achieved the sense of sustain that is possible.
Chopin admired Bellini and opera. This should be a MELODY in a storm. Not a mess of equal sounds.
I repeat: Would you play the melody and accompaniment at a single level in the fortes of the Barcarolle???
cziffra1980 3 years ago
Nice strawman argument, but I didn't say to play it piano. I said it needs to be balanced, sufficiently to generate a true melodic line. The louder the accompaniment, the more monotonous the sound and the greater the limitation upon swelling.
cziffra1980 3 years ago
Fine, but that doesn't mean you have to swamp the melody. Once the melody and bass have established the sounds, the greater the volume on the following note, the greater the detraction from the important line (and the greater the limitation upon the possibility of crescendo for the peaks)
cziffra1980 3 years ago
1: The basic dynamics can be established by melody and bass alone. The greater the volume on the next quaver, the less the melodic line can be made to appear to sustain. Notes in such a close register detract CONSIDERABLY from the line. Listen to David Edward Smith's performance. He understands how to balance the parts without compromising drama. Arrau has a dramatic wall of sound but melody? He failed...
Incidentally he avoids sfz because the melody shouldn't be lumpy. It should sustain!
cziffra1980 3 years ago
@cziffra1980 disagree with you, this etude has/needs voicing of melodic lines, just like bach's music does (after all this etude was inspired by bach, whom chopin admred/liked above all) that doesnt mean to bang the melody and play eveythingsofterand notclear. this is a BIG mistake in interpretation . arrau folows te score and there result is uniqe and PHENOMENAL
arturon111 2 months ago
@arturon111 So where are all the melodic lines here? They are lost in a swarm of banged notes. Your idea of bringing out melodic lines is to pummel every individually note forcefully and percussively?
cziffra1980 2 months ago
@arturon111 In fact, the pedalling is so bloody awful here that the melodic line frequently doesn't even sustain long enough to come anywhere near connecting to the next note! To suggest that this approach makes lines clearer is ridiculous.And voicing the accompaniment with some sensitivity doesn't have to mean being unclear.
cziffra1980 2 months ago
Nonsense! Just because Chopin didn't specifically mark it does not mean that he wanted the melody swamped by noisy accompaniment. Are you also going to suggest that nobody should ever use dynamics to distinguish melody and accompaniment (eg. in the thick chords of the Barcarolle?), unless the composer directly specifies it? Use some common sense.
The reality of this study is that almost everyone plays the quavers too loud- killing the continuity of what should ought to be a vocal melody.
cziffra1980 3 years ago
yeah, right, this piece is brutal. I'll need to see
debussy84 3 years ago
i think that i play better this etude
pianoplejer 3 years ago
I totally agree. Please upload yourself playing it if you really think you can do it better
Pinchoro 3 years ago
push in "pianoplejer" and search Ocean Etude:)
pianoplejer 3 years ago
@pianoplejer are you comparing yourself to arrau, keep dreaming !
arturon111 2 months ago
Oh yes. Cziffra's is awesome; though I've always liked Maurizio Pollini's interpretations on Chopin's creation.
Edward3600 3 years ago
wow. i love arrau. he brings out voices in this etude that others don't pay attention to. my only criticism is that more pedal is needed. my favorite chopin etude by far. ty filipeo.
brianCIM 3 years ago 2
I think he purposely did that. It's his way of separating the second group with a more different sound. If you like pedal try listening to Horowitz's version; an also superb version.
Edward3600 3 years ago
have you heard cziffra's version? it's staggering. but i do love arrau. honestly i have to say i was a little disappointed by the horowitz version but as always it's unique. i love cortot and backhaus as well.
brianCIM 3 years ago 3