Okay, so you're saying that since God is willing to bless us for doing the RIGHT things it means that mercy does nothing?!
To understand what he's saying, you FIRST have to know that being resurected is a gift to everyone, no matter what, BUT depending on your righeousness you can choose where you'll spend eternity. Since God is just, it only makes sence that you have to DO something to get to heaven right?!
@razorprower A murderer cannot escape prison by obeying some other laws. Nor can a sinner escape Hell by following some commandments sometimes, while breaking others sometimes. If we could do something 2 earn or deserve heaven, heaven would B filled with proud, self righteous people, boasting about what they did 2 earn heaven Ephesians 2:8,9. Jesus is the only & complete way 2 heaven John 14:6 3:18,36. The Bible tells us that we can Know that we have eternal life(heaven) 1 John 5:13
People misunderstood Jesus when he taught because they were in darkness or didn't believe. Same is true in here. The apostles make very clear sense. people want signs to prove things and will never learn faith this way.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it NO MORE of works, otherwise GRACE is no more Grace, but if it be of works then is it NO MORE GRACE, otherwise work is no more Work. If we could ever possibly earn our way into heaven, Christ died in vain.
@razorprower Every single person born on this planet except for Jesus Christ (God Himself Philippians 2:5-12) has disobeyed God Romans 3:23. Any disobedience to God earns death & Hell Romans 6:23 but God through His grace wants to give us eternal life, by grace(an unearned, undeserved gift) through faith Romans 11:6. Good works can only truly come after salvation Ephesians 2:8-10. The Bible teaches very clearly that everyone reaps what they sow. This applies to saint & sinner alike.
Great apostle of the Lord. Mock him at your peril and I agree with the clever person who suggested paying attention to the entire gist of the talk. Ssheesh!
Mormon forefathers bore their testimonies for a ***different set of doctrines*** that are now said to be false by the current LDS church.
Some of these doctrines were: Adam as God, polygamy is essential to salvation, blacks will be denied the priesthood until the second comming of Christ, blood atonment and death oaths.
If Mormon forefathers testimonies can't be trusted what makes you think yours can be trusted?
First off, the "Adam God" thing is a theory someone made up, not doctrine, Secondly, it never said that Polygamy was ESSENTIAL, it was part of the restoration, for example Abraham had multiple wives, BUT since God ordained them to him, it was alright. THIRD. It wasn't that they were denied the priesthood till the second coming, it was only allowed to certain people, For example the Levites were the ones in the old testament who had the priesthood. And what are the "death oaths"
Mormon forefathers bore their testimonies for a different set of doctrines that are now said to be false by the current LDS church.Some of these doctrines were: Adam as God, polygamy is essential to salvation, blacks will be denied the priesthood until the second comming of Christ, blood atonment and death oaths. If Mormon forefathers testimonies can't be trusted what makes you think yours can be trusted, what makes you better then Joseph Smith and Brigham Young?
This video is only a partial quote from the whole talk. Before anyone criticizes the talk, take a look at the whole thing first. As any thinking person will realize, if you take just part what someone says, out of context, it can look incorrect.
Google: "The Atonement Can Secure Your Peace and Happiness" and read the words of an Apostle of Jesus Christ.
Then, when you have the full story if you want to reject the True Gospel, at least it will be with understanding.
@ImLDSRU2 That what I thought... they just cut out a whole middle section... yet those that just watch this will have no idea what he said... they will just take what they hear here... so really, Watch the whole talk!
Before you judge Mormons based on this short clip please listen to an entire talk. We're not trying to intimidate and bully other Christians into silence we respect them and their religions but we ask that they also respect ours please.
You should use your logical analytical skills and expand their scope to include all religion. All of their claims are equally ridiculous, some of them are just newer than others.
You cannot drive around running everyone over with your car and obtain mercy. God requires that you work on yourself through repentance and obedience. Sorry, you can't do that and BAM! like you don't have to repent or anything. Its a two way street. With grace we realize that we cannot truly make up for what Christ did for us- but we do all we can(repentance and obedience) and God takes care of the rest. That is why its Grace:)
You mixed the word mercy up with grace. You cannot drive around running everyone over with your car and obtain mercy. God requires that you work on yourself through repentance and obedience. Sorry, you can not rob an old lady's house and BAM! you don't have to repent(feel bad,&the other steps) or anything, you are forgiven because of mercy. Its a two way street. With grace you still have to do all you can-There is no way we can truly make up for what Christ did for us- That is why its Grace:)
There is no contradiction. The first quote ends with "Only the life, teachings, and particularly the Atonement of Jesus Christ can release you from this otherwise impossible predicament" The second quote, is summed up by the phrase "Such repentance and obedience are absolutely essential for the Atonement to work its complete miracle in your life. The Redeemer can settle your individual account with justice and grant forgiveness through the merciful path of your repentance." Same thing!
Mormon forefathers bore their testimonies for a different set of doctrines that are now said to be false by the current LDS church.Some of these doctrines were: Adam as God, polygamy is essential to salvation, blacks will be denied the priesthood until the second comming of Christ, blood atonment and death oaths. If Mormon forefathers testimonies can't be trusted what makes you think yours can be trusted, what makes you better then Joseph Smith and Brigham Young?
I've heard it all a few dozen times. Have you read Romans Chapters 1-9. The best way is ti youtube chuck missler book of romans. There are some things I do not agree with, like the rapture and he gets all confused about the "law" which is Torah, God's teaching and instruction. 8th article of faith "We believe that man may be saved THROUGH OBEDIENCE TO THE LAWS AND ORDINANCES OF THE GOSPEL." of Mormonism, of course.
@GmaM11 I believe you are referring to the third article of faith which states "We believe that, through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel." The 8th Article of Faith states "We believe the Bible to be the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God." Try to be a bit more accurate in the future, please.
Love earned by obedience? Where is grace and mercy? How many times have we looked back at our lives and realized we thought we were doing good, but we are so good at self-deception. We try to fix things, and cannot make it better. WE need the grace and mercy of God....and we have messed things up so badly, we have no idea where to begin. We need God to stand in the gap for us, because we are weak mortals. Where is the Mormon God. READ ROMANS CHAPTERS 1-9. There is your answer.
@GmaM11 I don't think you listened to this video. Your comments seem to be ignoring some of what he said and claiming he said things that he did not say.
In addition, you really should listen to the whole thing not just one moment out of 20.
If you were better than they are, if you had the truth, then you wouldn't need to do this, you would live in the right way. I just say that you must study the bible, but not with the purpose to believe yourself better that the rest of the mankind, or find mistakes of other people. Jesus Christ wouldn't like to see you figthing or arguing against other beliefs if you already have the truly one.!! but you don't
why do you even waste your time trying to find mistakes in the speechs of the elders? I think that they are all wonderful people who live wonderful lives. They don't even sin as much as we do, they talk by inspiration, they help others, they lead the church, they have the priesthood. If you do NOT believe in what they say, just don't listen to them, but please don't judge them, because they haven't judged you. I am sure that all they say is true
The Lord is the only judge. Why would good people like those of the Mormon Church be doomed to everlasting hell-fire? It seems that there is no love or mercy from God for good people. And you seem to be the one to dignify that with a judgmental capacity that is equivalent to the Adversary. You are fueled by hatred for a denomination you don't understand or have empathy for. Cease your bigotry. For only you people cannot understand behind your bound mouths and your trapped minds.
Man's standard of good is vastly different from God's standard of good. We are only seen as "good" in God's eyes through the blood of Jesus Christ. It is not by our own works that we are saved - it is a gift from God. I will add this too: Mormons don't believe in the Jesus Christ that Christians believe in. How can you be saved if you have placed your faith in a false Jesus? Read Galatians 1:6-9. The word "cursed" or "accursed" means a person doomed to destruction (hell).
@edadan2009 I think a great way to show that we as sons and daughters of God we have an obligation to show our worthiness through works. These works include proxy work, and missionary work, so that all may know Jesus Christ and his sacrifice. Ordinance as well. Do you think that Jesus Christ, out of all men, needed to be baptized? To be washed clean of his sins? He did it to be an example, now tell me why nobody gets baptized today? Are they not saved because he was not following his example?
@sauntersil Besides that, there seems to be sense in bringing about the salvation of many others through work, such as missionary work, so that all may know Jesus Christ. How do you account for the billions of lives who have not known Jesus Christ. Did God purposely set men and women on this earth to be doomed to hell, just because they had no opportunity to know God? If so, then God is an unjust, and unmerciful being, therefore he cannot exist. Can someone be saved without knowing Jesus Christ?
Okay I do not see a contradiction exactly. He says when you obey God's laws you are blessed but you can't store up blessings for later disobedience. Very legalistic but not contradictory. Okay. Then he says that mercy is something one earns through repentance and living right. So what he says is very legalistic and changes the definition of mercy but not necessarily contradictory. It is a false gospel however which is worse.
So wherein lies the contradiction? other than in YOUR interpretation of grace and works... I would recommend for anyone who doesn't grasp the concept of being accountable before God for our actions and still being saved by grace to a book entitled "Believing Christ" it covers the entire matter beautifully. If you're just looking to confess with your lips, say you believe and act in hypocrisy than it is truly in vain. but works are required don't kid yourself. Read the end of 2nd Peter.
@pierre777able A product as in, we show works because we are grateful and don't waste a price payed for sin. its pretty pointless to argue in 400 letters or less so instead let me share a link to my mormon. org page sharing exactly how I feel about grace and works.h ttp://mormon.org/me/2ZTH/ There is no word limit there and if you so wish, write back to my inbox... agree or disagree.... I love the dialogue.
@L4M4N1T3 ...kind of missing the point that mr smith isn't your saviour, even though he declared himself "I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I". Goes against 1 Cor 13:1, doesn't it.....
@L4M4N1T3 ...cont...so here is my sad problem - how do I convey to you that the faith you have in joseph smith is misplaced? As for imldsru2, he is what you might term a "troll". He is unable to answer the facts about his church and so resports to name calling in order to frustrate those who would show your organisation to be wholly flawed. As for me, I cannot claim anything other than to be saved by the blood of the Lamb. I can take no pride in my salvation - I had no part in its completion.
@L4M4N1T3 ...cont...Historical and textural critisism show that the claim that the bible was/is corrupt and full of errors is unsupportable. There is solid evidence that Joseph Smith’s claim to be a prophet is also false. Failed prophecies, immoral relationships and involvement in occultism argue against his claim to be a prophet of God. This saddens me as my Mormon friends and acquaintances, as well as those today who are placing their eternal destiny in the hands of the Church he founded.
@L4M4N1T3 ....delusions aside, the reason it is both so sad and so funny at the same time, is the claim that the LDS church has, to actually be called Christians. Your founder claimed "As to the errors in the bible, any man possessed of common understanding, knows, that both old and new testaments are filled with errors, obscurities, italics and contradictions, which must be the work of men". He then publishes his own edited version. The problem being, he does not prove the original incorrect..
@pierre777able uh huh. Its so typical of an anti-Christ like you to lie about the Saints of God. Jesus many places said that the way his people and his representatives were treated -- for good or ill -- would be reflected in His judgement of the people who were doling out the treatment.
You should learn more about what is in the Scriptures -- for in them you believe you have eternal life (although that is an error) and they are they which testify of Christ and His Work.
@ImLDSRU2 ....a psychologist would have a field day with you.... So first you take scripture out of context to attack me, them you further justify (noting that you don't attempt to justify what you know to be a misuse of that passage) your attack by a generic "Jesus said" blah blah blah. Why do I find YOU such a hypocrite? Because on one hand you agree with j smith that the Bible is less than adequate and mistranslated, yet you have the audacity to try and use it to justify yourselves.HYPOCRITE
@pierre777able Nope. No scripture out of context. You are lying. It is your nature to lie. The truth is not in you.
The reason you CLAIM to find me a hypocrite is because I identified your true nature, proclaimed it, and now you feel a need to get even and discredit me. Your stated reason is silly and illogical. I can quote any document as a history reference without believing it is perfect -- and if I do that, I am in good company with all world historians.
@ImLDSRU2 Liar. You dont hunger or thirst, you are not homeless or sick or in prison. You meet no criteria of that scripture. And you accuse me of committing offenses on the basis of that scripture. Prideful, ignorant blind guide. The truth is set before you and you continue to demand your self righteousness over scripture.
@ImLDSRU2 ...Oh look, the "bishop" is found to be a liar and hypocrite. You can't even bring yourself to admit your error. Such pride! Joseph ""I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I" would be proud of you!
@ImLDSRU2 He's not lying. I bought a copy printed in the 1950's of the History of the Church Vol 6 from a collector in Utah. I read Joseph Smith's boastful words printed on paper from your own church.
@eeikman note that nothing in my conversation had anything to do with some quote from Church History -- which incidentally, is not always a reliable source.
@ImLDSRU2 *It would be more convenient if it were not that way.* I know from personal experience. Discovering that you have been taught falsehoods isn't the least bit convenient. It's a horrifying, wrenching experience. Your view of reality must be re-shaped. It's very difficult.
@pierre777able Yes. He lied about me. A question has a question mark after it. A statement has a period. His has no question mark. It does have a period.
No matter how old it gets, you anti-Christs will be identified.
@ImLDSRU2 ...do you really want to descend into punctuation? Even as a statement without a question mark at the end of it, as part of the context of a conversation, it is a question. Scripture advises to have an answer ready for those who question the reasons for your belief. Scripture does not in any way shape or form suggest that you call people liars who disagree with your veiw. Unless you subscribe to the L Ron Hubbard school of thought. Grow up.
@pierre777able Its you who descends... into all kinds of things including punctuation. In your case though, you use errors as your touchstone.
A question mark signifies a question. This is universal in the English language. But as you do with the Gospel and your pretended allegience to God, you will twist and lie.
@ImLDSRU2 ...which God? The God of the Bible, or the God of Joseph Smith? The great I AM, or the one who was a man who became god? The one who sent His Son to redeem us, or the one who is fornicating with his spiritual wives, somewhere near kolob in order to produce spiritual babies? The one who cast the archangel satan, a created being, down because pride was found in him, or the one who had a couple of spiritual children, one of whom had their plan for mankinds elevation to godhood accepted?
@ImLDSRU2 ...so, not the god of joseph smith then? I keep telling you that I am pro Jesus, is english comprehension not one of your stong points? Well, I suppose you are american & He does love you too...
@ImLDSRU2 ...but the god you follow didn't exist in literature until Joseph Smith penned him. The basic failing in your reasoning continues to be the FACT that the claims of your so called prophet are demonstratably false. "I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book," (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 461). Demonstratably false. Liar
@ImLDSRU2 . By what measure am I being measured apostate? By the measure of your religion? Then I can only be an anti-smithian. An anti-satanist. And that I am perfectly content to be. Your argument that I can at once confess Christ and be an anti-christ fails the scriptural test. Again.
@ImLDSRU2 ...no, you didn't, but in your attempt to play with words, you again find joseph smith in conflict with scripture. Mark 9:40. You simply skirt the issues you know to be the truth in your attempts to be self-righteous.
@ImLDSRU2 ....never addresses the valid points raised. Simply bypasses them. Plays with words like "hell", knowing full well the biblical definition is completely different to the morman definition. Jacob 3:11; 6:10; 2 Nephi 19:16; 28:21-23. Eternal Hell. James Talmage, Articles of Faith, p. 55. Not eternal hell. Lies, lies & more lies.
@pierre777able I constantly address the most important point when you are involved in the conversation: You are anti-Christ and the truth is not in you. Should I even start to venture to discuss something seriously, there is 100% certainty that you will abuse the conversation. There is no doubt about it at all. It is your nature. You are anti-Christ. A wolf in sheeps clothing.
@ImLDSRU2 ...LOL. You avoid the points raised because you know perfectly well that you have no answer. You know that joseph smith has been proven beyond a shadow of doubt to be a false prophet. You know that the book of mormon contradicts itself. And yet you flee from the truth - why - does it mean that you would be disfellowshipped and lose your bishoprick if you admitted the truth? Look, its a question - it has a question mark and everything. Or will you avoid those questions again? Man up.
@ImLDSRU2 I'd advise you to stop falsely calling others anti-Christ. How many others do you plan to bring to your faith if you continuously bring them down? I don't see how you can be proud of what you are telling people.
@ImLDSRU2 By the way I see it, they aren't fighting Jesus at all. You believe that anyone that doesn't share your faith is anti-Christ. You sir, are terribly mistaken.
@ImLDSRU2 Why am I wrong? Please explain. Wait, did you just say everyone makes mistakes? But Mormons believe in perfection right? How can you be perfect or become perfect if you've made any mistakes at all? Stop accusing people who follow the Holy Bible as anti-Christ. It just doesn't add up at all. Calling someone anti-Christ isn't going to help you. I'll leave you with that advice.
@FallingUpification You are wrong because of the choices you have made. Yes, I said everyone makes mistakes. Yes Mormons believe in perfection. You become perfect through the atonement and grace of Christ.
People are anti-Christ when they oppose The Lord Jesus Christ. That is how it is.
I will not be taking orders from you. You are just gonna have to get over that.
@ImLDSRU2 First of all, what choices are you speaking of??
Secondly, no one here, or in heaven will ever be perfect or achieve different degrees of perfection.
Third, I don't see anyone that you're speaking to opposing the Lord at all, they're sharing their views, and you call them anti-Christ for it. I'm sure you've been called ugly things too. But two wrongs don't make a right.
@FallingUpification First of all, the choices you have made are to believe things that are false.
Your second statement is pure blasphemy against God.
Third, it doesn't matter if you don't see it. And so you know, its not a matter of calling names. Its a matter of correct labeling so everyone is warned.
@ImLDSRU2 What choices are you speaking of? I haven't expressed to you at all what my choices are.
How is it blasphemous to say perfection is impossible, when you yourself said we all make mistakes?
How can you "correctly label" someone who loves God as anti-Christ? I just don't get it. Do you think correctly labeling someone will help them take any kind of advice from you? I doubt it. I gave you no orders, it was helpful advice. You can take it or leave it, doesn't matter to me.
@ImLDSRU2 I haven't even told you what I believe. You just automatically label me as something before you even know me?
Well I'm sure everyone will say something along those lines whether they truly believed or not. But if you know in your heart and you show your love for Him, then who can be against you?
So in essence, you are saying those who are anti-Christ have no chance... they might as well be thrown to the wolves then I guess huh? Keep that attitude, and no one will want to listen to you.
@FallingUpification Uhh.. yeah.. You did tell me what you believe. Everything you have said has been a statement of various beliefs.
How exactly did I label you? Can you point to the label?
Lots of people can be against you even if you love Jesus. Just take a look at how many people here are Youtube are actually against Jesus himself -- AND the people who follow Him. Loving Jesus is not guarantee of being loved by others.
@FallingUpification No, I have not said anything about what chances anti-Christs have. And I have not said, nor implied, what should be done with them.
Jesus, however, talked of what would happen to people like them. He was extremely graphic in the violence that should or would be done to them: "They should have a millstone tied to their necks and they should be drowned in the depths of the sea". "They should be tied and and foot and cast into prison and not allowed out until they pay".
@ImLDSRU2 I have a question, is it ok for girls that are in fact mormon to date people that are not? Like I know in your faith it is I guess traditional to date someone who is mormon. But what if I'm not but she is, am I hurting her if I don't convert?
Generally speaking girls who are not yet 16 are not supposed to date Girls who are between about 16 and 19 are strongly encouraged to double date. We believe that you tend to marry the people that you date and that you should therefore date people of similar background to yourself. For that reason it is best to date other LDS people, particularly under 25. But it is not forbidden to date non-LDS people.
The problem that emerges however, is that LDS believe in being married for eternity in Temples. Non-members cannot go in the Temple and cannot get married there. So a relationship with a non-Member is requires the member to compromise this goal, which is pretty important to us.
@ImLDSRU2 Ok thank you, but what if I fall in love with this person but don't choose to join the church. Is that fine? Her parents are very strict and I just don't know how they would take it to find out that I am not in fact Mormon.
@BeatyAFI14 Well, first of all, she has to also agree that she wants to marry you. Its not a one way street.
If she wants to, there's not much her parents will be able to do about it. But if she were my daughter she would probably not be interested in dating a man who was not willing to join the Church. But this girl might be different.
“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool”.
This is more true than you realise. It’s true because when you’ve fooled yourself, you don’t know it. You convince yourself that you haven’t fooled yourself, and you develop a conviction, a faith, a belief about it. You'll be quite irrational in defence of this belief. You won't test your belief in an empirical scientific fashion. Instead, when challenged, you'll become defensive or incredulous.
Truth and in the absence of evidence to support the validity of the Book of Mormon as a historical document, LDS Apostle Russle M Nelson stated regarding the Book of Mormon..."...You can invite a friend to read the book of mormon. Explain that it is not a novel, or a historical book...". (see LDS dot Org).
If it's not a historical account as it's always been presented up until this statement.. what does it make the Book?
The mormon church has made it's members want things they don't need or exist by linking mass produced LDS doctrine and ideas to peoples unconscious desires. Out of this comes a new political idea of how to control the membership. By satisfying members inner selfish desires, the church has made it's people happy and thus docile. The start of the all consuming self, man-made idols of the self, which has come to dominate the church today. The church of Joseph Smith and his latter day saints.
I've never actually read the Didache but love the Life vs. Death as a choice concept and will study this further.
While the atonement is infinite and eternal, individual choices are totally binary. I often ask myself, will this choice make me more free or more enslaved?
Most fundamentalist Christians get this part exactly right. The choice between liberty and eternal life or captivity and death belongs to the individual.
I don't think we get to choose how good of a Savior Jesus is though.
@ImLDSRU2 - Yeah I never understood how so many fundamentalists could have faith in a binary atonement (1/0, on/off, saved/damned)
Jesus certainly didn't teach that. I lived next door to a Muslim family growing up and they were the best "Christians" on the block. I work with quite a few Atheists who also follow the teachings of Jesus better than a lot of Christians
(John 14:2) - In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
@ctrpapa I think that the reason for the Binary Atonement concept was that, while Jesus *secretly* taught degrees of glory to His Apostles, His over message stuck to the theme that has resonated throughout the message of God through all ages: The message of the two paths or the two ways. This message was found in ancient religions, including Judaism and in Christianity of the early Church. The Didache starts with this very idea: There are two ways -- one of life and one of death.
@ImLDSRU2 Hello my friend< the lier and anti-christ here, so what happened to the last common? where you able to find the church history i sent you? or you just ignore it because it would have been so painful to see what you prophet said about the Word of God?
@ImLDSRU2 (Joseph Smith) Besides his assertion that the Book of Mormon was far superior to the Bible, he charged that the Bible had been changed by "Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests... " (History of the Church, vol. 6, page 57) Oh yes you do!! :) Rings the bell?
@Chinaculiacan Doesn't matter how many arms you have -- you love to tell lies (this thing about 5 arms is probably another lie) and you are anti-Christ.
@Chinaculiacan Hey there. ImLDSRu2 says I am an anti-christ too. Shall we all have a party and dance around a campfire? I bet those few extra arms come in handy! I think we should ask him to amen his assertions to anti-mormon-christ. I'm comfortable with that label - hows about you? :)
@pierre777able LOL, Indeed i am. I've asked him if he took his Ensure, but he says he doesn't need it, because he follows the Word of Wisdon and his healthy, :) I asked him if Jose followed the Word of Wisdom, but he won't tell me either. LOL :) He won't go any further than to call me anti-christ, lier and on. But hasn't proven me wrong about his church history. :)
@Chinaculiacan ...well, it is a lot easier to point the finger and shout "infidel!" than prove the unprovable.
I've always liked the way that Mormons think you can earn your salvation...work at it baby work at it...and when someone points out that "all your righteousness is a fility rags"..well, thats a misinterpretation.... oy vey...
@pierre777able Not too long ago I place a post about what Mormons have to deal every time Joseph is mentioned. Being LDS means one has to carry the lies and all that is said about Jose, marrying other mans wives, little girls as 14, and false prophesies, among other things, like a Chain ball stock to their leg, I asked where's the life in that? but most of all, where's the freedom in that? Jesus has given us freedom through his sacrifice, has given us freedom, because he came 2 set us free.
@Chinaculiacan True. An interesting quote I ran across last week - Truth without love is brutality, love without truth is hypocrisy. I don't quite understand why mormons cling so hard to the "love without truth" part, when it is so obviously wrong...
@pierre777able It was probably me lol, I've posted it so many times, and it has been removed. Lol, I guess it was too strong for an LDS to recognize the truth behind it. But in reality is true, being an LDS has to bear José’s past and actions, is like a dead man hanging in your shoulder, when the birds come, they pick on the dead body, and on the one caring it. Ouch. No such thing with Jesus of Nazareth, He has come to give us life, freedom, and a way to the Father. Alleluya 2 the Lamb of God.
@ImLDSRU2 Ad hominem - is an attempt to link the truth of a claim to a negative characteristic or belief of the person advocating it. You seek to discredit my statement about universalism/mormonism by calling me a liar.
@pierre777able Once again you lie. I didn't seek to discredit any statement you made. You do that yourself by being a liar. I just identified you. There wasn't any argument involved.
@ImLDSRU2 ....Funny. Ok. Lets take this one small chunk of fact at a time. Line upon line, precept upon precept. Does the bible teach that those who don't accept Jesus' sacrifice upon the cross for their sin will go to hell?
@ImLDSRU2 Why should I submit to your inquisition? Because you call me a liar - and this is an opportunity for you to prove me a liar or simply admit that you find it easier to point fingers and call people names than as 1 Peter 3 suggests, to have an answer ready for the hope that you have.
So everybody goes to hell? I was not aware of that particular LDS doctrine - or are we playing around with gehenna/hades/hell words?
@pierre777able His two favorite words with me are hypocrite and liar. He calls me a liar when I say anything about the LDS. He even called me a liar for quoting verses from the BoM.
@cagray05 Funny thing is he also identifies himself as a "Bishop" which I find just too funny. LOL. It seems to be that as you work yourself into a more senior position within the church, you just become more blind to the truth - which is logical, I suppose - you would necessarily need to be more blind to the truth in order to lead slightly less blind people in more blindness, would you not :) ??
@pierre777able He calls people names in a way to attempt to nullify their argument. He called me a liar when I quoted from the BoM. He called me a liar when I quoted from the King Follett Discourse. He called me a hypocrite because I would not accept a Muslim's interpretation of the Bible. I wonder if he is really LDS or not.
@pierre777able You are both liars and anti-Christs. You love lies. You make lies and then you seek to destroy the Faith of the Saints of God with those lies.
@ImLDSRU2 "You are both liars and anti-Christs. You love lies. You make lies and then you seek to destroy the Faith of the Saints of God with those lies.It comes out of an evil heart. " So, to look at this another way, If I am a liar, then obviously I am of my father, satan - Jesus' "sprit brother". So, what does it matter? In your theology it makes very little difference, does it not?
@ImLDSRU2 "Everyone goes to hell." You are a liar. There are some who did not go to the grave (as you have decided to play with words). Liar Liar, pants on fire!
@pierre777able ..ImLDSRU2 makes me laugh - heres a self proclaimed bishop of the LDS Church. Everyone who points out to him that the LDS church is founded on the writings of a liar and conman get called a liar - anyone who challenges him to prove that they are lying gets called an anti christ. Yet when you catch him in his lies, you get block. Coward, hypocrite & liar. Demonstratably so. Yet he maintains he is a "saint" based on his own righteousness. LOLOLOL
I do not call anyone who challenges my views - liars. I only reserve that for people who knowingly tell falsehoods, who misrepresent the truth, who ... lie.
@ImLDSRU2 ...ah, but I can prove you are lying...and you cannot prove that I am. That you don't like the truth is obvious - that your simplistic defence mechanish is to call people liars who disagree with you is also obvious.
@pierre777able Again you lie. You cannot prove such a thing. You lie over and over and over. It is your nature. You are anti-Christ and the truth is not in you.
@ImLDSRU2 ...you see the basic problem with your reasoning process is that you are unable to believe that you can be wrong. It does not seem to be possible to you so you just call people names. You don't seem able to reason at all. So, I shall prove it to you from your own posts: "@pierre777able Everyone goes to hell." Enoch and Elijah ring any bells for you? So you lied in trying to avoid the question in typical playing with words style. Tell me who is the liar now you pharisee?
I will not tolerate vulgar disrespect in PM's sent to me. I prefer you make your rude comments in public for others to observe your blatant hypocrisy and evil nature.
@ImLDSRU2 ....oh er...vulgar disrespect? Have an high opinion of yourself don't you? "I can stand on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness" - thats what I stand on. You appear to be standing on something else......
@pierre777able I do not hold anti-Christs and hypocrites in such respect that every time they demand an answer, I will give them one. However, I have already answered this long ago.
When we first talked, you had the opportunity to have a reasonable discussion. You bypassed that and went straight for your anti-Christ issues.
Next time you want to seduce a Saint of God, keep your true nature secret a bit longer.
@ImLDSRU2 ....seduce....lol....homosexuality might well be your thing bishop, but it certainly isn't one of mone..LOL. Hows that going to stack up in your version of the kingdom come - how you going to produce "spirit children" with a
Okay, so you're saying that since God is willing to bless us for doing the RIGHT things it means that mercy does nothing?!
To understand what he's saying, you FIRST have to know that being resurected is a gift to everyone, no matter what, BUT depending on your righeousness you can choose where you'll spend eternity. Since God is just, it only makes sence that you have to DO something to get to heaven right?!
razorprower 1 month ago
@razorprower A murderer cannot escape prison by obeying some other laws. Nor can a sinner escape Hell by following some commandments sometimes, while breaking others sometimes. If we could do something 2 earn or deserve heaven, heaven would B filled with proud, self righteous people, boasting about what they did 2 earn heaven Ephesians 2:8,9. Jesus is the only & complete way 2 heaven John 14:6 3:18,36. The Bible tells us that we can Know that we have eternal life(heaven) 1 John 5:13
1stcorinthians1vrs18 1 month ago
People misunderstood Jesus when he taught because they were in darkness or didn't believe. Same is true in here. The apostles make very clear sense. people want signs to prove things and will never learn faith this way.
jawjww 2 months ago
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it NO MORE of works, otherwise GRACE is no more Grace, but if it be of works then is it NO MORE GRACE, otherwise work is no more Work. If we could ever possibly earn our way into heaven, Christ died in vain.
1stcorinthians1vrs18 3 months ago
@1stcorinthians1vrs18
Okay, you're saying God will save anybody, but how is it just for a person who dis-obeys God to gain the same reward as someone who doesn't?!
razorprower 1 month ago
@razorprower Every single person born on this planet except for Jesus Christ (God Himself Philippians 2:5-12) has disobeyed God Romans 3:23. Any disobedience to God earns death & Hell Romans 6:23 but God through His grace wants to give us eternal life, by grace(an unearned, undeserved gift) through faith Romans 11:6. Good works can only truly come after salvation Ephesians 2:8-10. The Bible teaches very clearly that everyone reaps what they sow. This applies to saint & sinner alike.
1stcorinthians1vrs18 1 month ago
Sorry no contradiction in these words.
171803289 3 months ago
Great apostle of the Lord. Mock him at your peril and I agree with the clever person who suggested paying attention to the entire gist of the talk. Ssheesh!
171803289 3 months ago
Mormon forefathers bore their testimonies for a ***different set of doctrines*** that are now said to be false by the current LDS church.
Some of these doctrines were: Adam as God, polygamy is essential to salvation, blacks will be denied the priesthood until the second comming of Christ, blood atonment and death oaths.
If Mormon forefathers testimonies can't be trusted what makes you think yours can be trusted?
thesignsoflife7 3 months ago
@thesignsoflife7 you are incorrect in multiple ways. Starting with being anti-Christ.
ImLDSRU2 3 months ago
@thesignsoflife7
First off, the "Adam God" thing is a theory someone made up, not doctrine, Secondly, it never said that Polygamy was ESSENTIAL, it was part of the restoration, for example Abraham had multiple wives, BUT since God ordained them to him, it was alright. THIRD. It wasn't that they were denied the priesthood till the second coming, it was only allowed to certain people, For example the Levites were the ones in the old testament who had the priesthood. And what are the "death oaths"
razorprower 1 month ago
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Mormon forefathers bore their testimonies for a different set of doctrines that are now said to be false by the current LDS church.Some of these doctrines were: Adam as God, polygamy is essential to salvation, blacks will be denied the priesthood until the second comming of Christ, blood atonment and death oaths. If Mormon forefathers testimonies can't be trusted what makes you think yours can be trusted, what makes you better then Joseph Smith and Brigham Young?
TheSoulamore 4 months ago
This video is only a partial quote from the whole talk. Before anyone criticizes the talk, take a look at the whole thing first. As any thinking person will realize, if you take just part what someone says, out of context, it can look incorrect.
Google: "The Atonement Can Secure Your Peace and Happiness" and read the words of an Apostle of Jesus Christ.
Then, when you have the full story if you want to reject the True Gospel, at least it will be with understanding.
ImLDSRU2 4 months ago 6
@ImLDSRU2 That what I thought... they just cut out a whole middle section... yet those that just watch this will have no idea what he said... they will just take what they hear here... so really, Watch the whole talk!
tylermatthewmarz 3 months ago
Before you judge Mormons based on this short clip please listen to an entire talk. We're not trying to intimidate and bully other Christians into silence we respect them and their religions but we ask that they also respect ours please.
animaluver555 3 months ago
You should use your logical analytical skills and expand their scope to include all religion. All of their claims are equally ridiculous, some of them are just newer than others.
vatoencabronado 4 months ago
You cannot drive around running everyone over with your car and obtain mercy. God requires that you work on yourself through repentance and obedience. Sorry, you can't do that and BAM! like you don't have to repent or anything. Its a two way street. With grace we realize that we cannot truly make up for what Christ did for us- but we do all we can(repentance and obedience) and God takes care of the rest. That is why its Grace:)
alimayrose 4 months ago
You mixed the word mercy up with grace. You cannot drive around running everyone over with your car and obtain mercy. God requires that you work on yourself through repentance and obedience. Sorry, you can not rob an old lady's house and BAM! you don't have to repent(feel bad,&the other steps) or anything, you are forgiven because of mercy. Its a two way street. With grace you still have to do all you can-There is no way we can truly make up for what Christ did for us- That is why its Grace:)
alimayrose 4 months ago
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alimayrose 4 months ago
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alimayrose 4 months ago
There is no contradiction. The first quote ends with "Only the life, teachings, and particularly the Atonement of Jesus Christ can release you from this otherwise impossible predicament" The second quote, is summed up by the phrase "Such repentance and obedience are absolutely essential for the Atonement to work its complete miracle in your life. The Redeemer can settle your individual account with justice and grant forgiveness through the merciful path of your repentance." Same thing!
xelmonitoxD 4 months ago
Mormon forefathers bore their testimonies for a different set of doctrines that are now said to be false by the current LDS church.Some of these doctrines were: Adam as God, polygamy is essential to salvation, blacks will be denied the priesthood until the second comming of Christ, blood atonment and death oaths. If Mormon forefathers testimonies can't be trusted what makes you think yours can be trusted, what makes you better then Joseph Smith and Brigham Young?
endofus 6 months ago 2
I've heard it all a few dozen times. Have you read Romans Chapters 1-9. The best way is ti youtube chuck missler book of romans. There are some things I do not agree with, like the rapture and he gets all confused about the "law" which is Torah, God's teaching and instruction. 8th article of faith "We believe that man may be saved THROUGH OBEDIENCE TO THE LAWS AND ORDINANCES OF THE GOSPEL." of Mormonism, of course.
GmaM11 6 months ago
@GmaM11 I believe you are referring to the third article of faith which states "We believe that, through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel." The 8th Article of Faith states "We believe the Bible to be the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God." Try to be a bit more accurate in the future, please.
davincent98 6 months ago
@davincent98 I've been out so years now.....the # of the AoF makes no difference to the argument. Don't be so rigid.
GmaM11 6 months ago
Love earned by obedience? Where is grace and mercy? How many times have we looked back at our lives and realized we thought we were doing good, but we are so good at self-deception. We try to fix things, and cannot make it better. WE need the grace and mercy of God....and we have messed things up so badly, we have no idea where to begin. We need God to stand in the gap for us, because we are weak mortals. Where is the Mormon God. READ ROMANS CHAPTERS 1-9. There is your answer.
GmaM11 6 months ago
@GmaM11 I don't think you listened to this video. Your comments seem to be ignoring some of what he said and claiming he said things that he did not say.
In addition, you really should listen to the whole thing not just one moment out of 20.
ImLDSRU2 6 months ago
If mercy is unconditional, then it's given to Mormons as well.
trencher7 6 months ago
If you were better than they are, if you had the truth, then you wouldn't need to do this, you would live in the right way. I just say that you must study the bible, but not with the purpose to believe yourself better that the rest of the mankind, or find mistakes of other people. Jesus Christ wouldn't like to see you figthing or arguing against other beliefs if you already have the truly one.!! but you don't
CrazziiGiirL54 6 months ago
why do you even waste your time trying to find mistakes in the speechs of the elders? I think that they are all wonderful people who live wonderful lives. They don't even sin as much as we do, they talk by inspiration, they help others, they lead the church, they have the priesthood. If you do NOT believe in what they say, just don't listen to them, but please don't judge them, because they haven't judged you. I am sure that all they say is true
CrazziiGiirL54 6 months ago
The Lord is the only judge. Why would good people like those of the Mormon Church be doomed to everlasting hell-fire? It seems that there is no love or mercy from God for good people. And you seem to be the one to dignify that with a judgmental capacity that is equivalent to the Adversary. You are fueled by hatred for a denomination you don't understand or have empathy for. Cease your bigotry. For only you people cannot understand behind your bound mouths and your trapped minds.
sauntersil 6 months ago
@sauntersil
Man's standard of good is vastly different from God's standard of good. We are only seen as "good" in God's eyes through the blood of Jesus Christ. It is not by our own works that we are saved - it is a gift from God. I will add this too: Mormons don't believe in the Jesus Christ that Christians believe in. How can you be saved if you have placed your faith in a false Jesus? Read Galatians 1:6-9. The word "cursed" or "accursed" means a person doomed to destruction (hell).
edadan2009 6 months ago
@edadan2009 I think a great way to show that we as sons and daughters of God we have an obligation to show our worthiness through works. These works include proxy work, and missionary work, so that all may know Jesus Christ and his sacrifice. Ordinance as well. Do you think that Jesus Christ, out of all men, needed to be baptized? To be washed clean of his sins? He did it to be an example, now tell me why nobody gets baptized today? Are they not saved because he was not following his example?
sauntersil 6 months ago
@sauntersil Besides that, there seems to be sense in bringing about the salvation of many others through work, such as missionary work, so that all may know Jesus Christ. How do you account for the billions of lives who have not known Jesus Christ. Did God purposely set men and women on this earth to be doomed to hell, just because they had no opportunity to know God? If so, then God is an unjust, and unmerciful being, therefore he cannot exist. Can someone be saved without knowing Jesus Christ?
sauntersil 6 months ago
Okay I do not see a contradiction exactly. He says when you obey God's laws you are blessed but you can't store up blessings for later disobedience. Very legalistic but not contradictory. Okay. Then he says that mercy is something one earns through repentance and living right. So what he says is very legalistic and changes the definition of mercy but not necessarily contradictory. It is a false gospel however which is worse.
MrBlackhaw 7 months ago
So wherein lies the contradiction? other than in YOUR interpretation of grace and works... I would recommend for anyone who doesn't grasp the concept of being accountable before God for our actions and still being saved by grace to a book entitled "Believing Christ" it covers the entire matter beautifully. If you're just looking to confess with your lips, say you believe and act in hypocrisy than it is truly in vain. but works are required don't kid yourself. Read the end of 2nd Peter.
rambojoe2323 8 months ago
@rambojoe2323 ...yes, works are required - but they are a PRODUCT of grace, not a means to salvation....
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able A product as in, we show works because we are grateful and don't waste a price payed for sin. its pretty pointless to argue in 400 letters or less so instead let me share a link to my mormon. org page sharing exactly how I feel about grace and works.h ttp://mormon.org/me/2ZTH/ There is no word limit there and if you so wish, write back to my inbox... agree or disagree.... I love the dialogue.
rambojoe2323 8 months ago
@L4M4N1T3 ...kind of missing the point that mr smith isn't your saviour, even though he declared himself "I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I". Goes against 1 Cor 13:1, doesn't it.....
pierre777able 8 months ago
@L4M4N1T3 ...cont...so here is my sad problem - how do I convey to you that the faith you have in joseph smith is misplaced? As for imldsru2, he is what you might term a "troll". He is unable to answer the facts about his church and so resports to name calling in order to frustrate those who would show your organisation to be wholly flawed. As for me, I cannot claim anything other than to be saved by the blood of the Lamb. I can take no pride in my salvation - I had no part in its completion.
pierre777able 8 months ago
@L4M4N1T3 ...cont...Historical and textural critisism show that the claim that the bible was/is corrupt and full of errors is unsupportable. There is solid evidence that Joseph Smith’s claim to be a prophet is also false. Failed prophecies, immoral relationships and involvement in occultism argue against his claim to be a prophet of God. This saddens me as my Mormon friends and acquaintances, as well as those today who are placing their eternal destiny in the hands of the Church he founded.
pierre777able 8 months ago
@L4M4N1T3 ....delusions aside, the reason it is both so sad and so funny at the same time, is the claim that the LDS church has, to actually be called Christians. Your founder claimed "As to the errors in the bible, any man possessed of common understanding, knows, that both old and new testaments are filled with errors, obscurities, italics and contradictions, which must be the work of men". He then publishes his own edited version. The problem being, he does not prove the original incorrect..
pierre777able 8 months ago
@L4M4N1T3 He does commit the same offenses. "In as much as ye do it unto the least of these My Children, ye do it unto Me".
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 ...you hypoctite. How you twist scripture to suit your own ends. Take things out of context ant-Christ, but the truth shall out.
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able uh huh. Its so typical of an anti-Christ like you to lie about the Saints of God. Jesus many places said that the way his people and his representatives were treated -- for good or ill -- would be reflected in His judgement of the people who were doling out the treatment.
You should learn more about what is in the Scriptures -- for in them you believe you have eternal life (although that is an error) and they are they which testify of Christ and His Work.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 ....a psychologist would have a field day with you.... So first you take scripture out of context to attack me, them you further justify (noting that you don't attempt to justify what you know to be a misuse of that passage) your attack by a generic "Jesus said" blah blah blah. Why do I find YOU such a hypocrite? Because on one hand you agree with j smith that the Bible is less than adequate and mistranslated, yet you have the audacity to try and use it to justify yourselves.HYPOCRITE
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able Nope. No scripture out of context. You are lying. It is your nature to lie. The truth is not in you.
The reason you CLAIM to find me a hypocrite is because I identified your true nature, proclaimed it, and now you feel a need to get even and discredit me. Your stated reason is silly and illogical. I can quote any document as a history reference without believing it is perfect -- and if I do that, I am in good company with all world historians.
Silly anti-Christ.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 Liar. You dont hunger or thirst, you are not homeless or sick or in prison. You meet no criteria of that scripture. And you accuse me of committing offenses on the basis of that scripture. Prideful, ignorant blind guide. The truth is set before you and you continue to demand your self righteousness over scripture.
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able You are a liar and anti-Christ and continually malign the Saints of God. It is your nature.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 ...how typical. Exposed for the hypocrite you are , you revert to type. Proven beyond any argument.
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able Whatever.. you are a liar and anti-Christ. You will always lie to harass the Saints of God.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
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@ImLDSRU2 ...Oh look, the "bishop" is found to be a liar and hypocrite. You can't even bring yourself to admit your error. Such pride! Joseph ""I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I" would be proud of you!
pierre777able 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 He's not lying. I bought a copy printed in the 1950's of the History of the Church Vol 6 from a collector in Utah. I read Joseph Smith's boastful words printed on paper from your own church.
eeikman 8 months ago
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@eeikman Yes, he is lying and you are babbling nonsense.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
@eeikman note that nothing in my conversation had anything to do with some quote from Church History -- which incidentally, is not always a reliable source.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 *Church History -- which incidentally, is not always a reliable source.* That's very convenient.
eeikman 8 months ago
@eeikman No, that is not convenient. It would be more convenient if it were not that way. Silly.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
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@ImLDSRU2 *It would be more convenient if it were not that way.* I know from personal experience. Discovering that you have been taught falsehoods isn't the least bit convenient. It's a horrifying, wrenching experience. Your view of reality must be re-shaped. It's very difficult.
eeikman 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 So, if the history matches your current worldview, it's reliable. If it does not, it's suspect.
eeikman 8 months ago
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@eeikman Now you are lying. About me.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 eeikman isn't lying about you - he is phrasing a question. Your patented retreat into calling people liars is getting a bit old.
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able Yes. He lied about me. A question has a question mark after it. A statement has a period. His has no question mark. It does have a period.
No matter how old it gets, you anti-Christs will be identified.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 ...do you really want to descend into punctuation? Even as a statement without a question mark at the end of it, as part of the context of a conversation, it is a question. Scripture advises to have an answer ready for those who question the reasons for your belief. Scripture does not in any way shape or form suggest that you call people liars who disagree with your veiw. Unless you subscribe to the L Ron Hubbard school of thought. Grow up.
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able Its you who descends... into all kinds of things including punctuation. In your case though, you use errors as your touchstone.
A question mark signifies a question. This is universal in the English language. But as you do with the Gospel and your pretended allegience to God, you will twist and lie.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 ...which God? The God of the Bible, or the God of Joseph Smith? The great I AM, or the one who was a man who became god? The one who sent His Son to redeem us, or the one who is fornicating with his spiritual wives, somewhere near kolob in order to produce spiritual babies? The one who cast the archangel satan, a created being, down because pride was found in him, or the one who had a couple of spiritual children, one of whom had their plan for mankinds elevation to godhood accepted?
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able The God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. The God of Adam. The God of Jesus and of the Apostles.
You are anti-Christ.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 ...so, not the god of joseph smith then? I keep telling you that I am pro Jesus, is english comprehension not one of your stong points? Well, I suppose you are american & He does love you too...
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able bah.. you are a liar and anti-Christ. you will lie and twist any chance you get. It is your nature.
The only true God.. the God of all the Prophets from Father Adam to Joseph Smith and Thomas Monson.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 ...but the god you follow didn't exist in literature until Joseph Smith penned him. The basic failing in your reasoning continues to be the FACT that the claims of your so called prophet are demonstratably false. "I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book," (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 461). Demonstratably false. Liar
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able Yes, I know you claim to be pro-Jesus but you are not. You are a liar. A wolf in sheeps clothing. you are anti-Christ.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 . By what measure am I being measured apostate? By the measure of your religion? Then I can only be an anti-smithian. An anti-satanist. And that I am perfectly content to be. Your argument that I can at once confess Christ and be an anti-christ fails the scriptural test. Again.
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able I never said you were apostate.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 ...no, you didn't, but in your attempt to play with words, you again find joseph smith in conflict with scripture. Mark 9:40. You simply skirt the issues you know to be the truth in your attempts to be self-righteous.
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able I have not made any attempt to play at words. I have spoken forthrightly. It is you who plays games with words. You are anti-Christ.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 ....never addresses the valid points raised. Simply bypasses them. Plays with words like "hell", knowing full well the biblical definition is completely different to the morman definition. Jacob 3:11; 6:10; 2 Nephi 19:16; 28:21-23. Eternal Hell. James Talmage, Articles of Faith, p. 55. Not eternal hell. Lies, lies & more lies.
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able I constantly address the most important point when you are involved in the conversation: You are anti-Christ and the truth is not in you. Should I even start to venture to discuss something seriously, there is 100% certainty that you will abuse the conversation. There is no doubt about it at all. It is your nature. You are anti-Christ. A wolf in sheeps clothing.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
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@ImLDSRU2 ...LOL. You avoid the points raised because you know perfectly well that you have no answer. You know that joseph smith has been proven beyond a shadow of doubt to be a false prophet. You know that the book of mormon contradicts itself. And yet you flee from the truth - why - does it mean that you would be disfellowshipped and lose your bishoprick if you admitted the truth? Look, its a question - it has a question mark and everything. Or will you avoid those questions again? Man up.
pierre777able 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 I'd advise you to stop falsely calling others anti-Christ. How many others do you plan to bring to your faith if you continuously bring them down? I don't see how you can be proud of what you are telling people.
FallingUpification 7 months ago
@FallingUpification I don't falsely call others anti-Christ.
I have brought about 4 other people to my faith this way and I brought one brother back from apostasy.
Thanks for asking!
ImLDSRU2 7 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 By the way I see it, they aren't fighting Jesus at all. You believe that anyone that doesn't share your faith is anti-Christ. You sir, are terribly mistaken.
FallingUpification 7 months ago
@FallingUpification Well, the way you see it is wrong. I'm fine with that. Everyone makes mistakes.
ImLDSRU2 7 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 Why am I wrong? Please explain. Wait, did you just say everyone makes mistakes? But Mormons believe in perfection right? How can you be perfect or become perfect if you've made any mistakes at all? Stop accusing people who follow the Holy Bible as anti-Christ. It just doesn't add up at all. Calling someone anti-Christ isn't going to help you. I'll leave you with that advice.
FallingUpification 7 months ago
@FallingUpification You are wrong because of the choices you have made. Yes, I said everyone makes mistakes. Yes Mormons believe in perfection. You become perfect through the atonement and grace of Christ.
People are anti-Christ when they oppose The Lord Jesus Christ. That is how it is.
I will not be taking orders from you. You are just gonna have to get over that.
ImLDSRU2 7 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 First of all, what choices are you speaking of??
Secondly, no one here, or in heaven will ever be perfect or achieve different degrees of perfection.
Third, I don't see anyone that you're speaking to opposing the Lord at all, they're sharing their views, and you call them anti-Christ for it. I'm sure you've been called ugly things too. But two wrongs don't make a right.
Fourth, I'm giving you advice, not orders.
FallingUpification 7 months ago
@FallingUpification First of all, the choices you have made are to believe things that are false.
Your second statement is pure blasphemy against God.
Third, it doesn't matter if you don't see it. And so you know, its not a matter of calling names. Its a matter of correct labeling so everyone is warned.
Fourth, you did give me an order.
ImLDSRU2 7 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 What choices are you speaking of? I haven't expressed to you at all what my choices are.
How is it blasphemous to say perfection is impossible, when you yourself said we all make mistakes?
How can you "correctly label" someone who loves God as anti-Christ? I just don't get it. Do you think correctly labeling someone will help them take any kind of advice from you? I doubt it. I gave you no orders, it was helpful advice. You can take it or leave it, doesn't matter to me.
FallingUpification 7 months ago
@FallingUpification The choices I was speaking of were your choices to believe false things.
Yes, it is blasphemous to say that no one in Heaven will ever be perfect.
There are many who will say unto Jesus "Lord Lord, we loved you" but he will say "Depart from me, I never knew you".
I dont really expect any anti-Christ to take advice from me.
Yes, You gave me an order.
ImLDSRU2 7 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 I haven't even told you what I believe. You just automatically label me as something before you even know me?
Well I'm sure everyone will say something along those lines whether they truly believed or not. But if you know in your heart and you show your love for Him, then who can be against you?
So in essence, you are saying those who are anti-Christ have no chance... they might as well be thrown to the wolves then I guess huh? Keep that attitude, and no one will want to listen to you.
FallingUpification 7 months ago
@FallingUpification Uhh.. yeah.. You did tell me what you believe. Everything you have said has been a statement of various beliefs.
How exactly did I label you? Can you point to the label?
Lots of people can be against you even if you love Jesus. Just take a look at how many people here are Youtube are actually against Jesus himself -- AND the people who follow Him. Loving Jesus is not guarantee of being loved by others.
ImLDSRU2 7 months ago
@FallingUpification No, I have not said anything about what chances anti-Christs have. And I have not said, nor implied, what should be done with them.
Jesus, however, talked of what would happen to people like them. He was extremely graphic in the violence that should or would be done to them: "They should have a millstone tied to their necks and they should be drowned in the depths of the sea". "They should be tied and and foot and cast into prison and not allowed out until they pay".
ImLDSRU2 7 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 I have a question, is it ok for girls that are in fact mormon to date people that are not? Like I know in your faith it is I guess traditional to date someone who is mormon. But what if I'm not but she is, am I hurting her if I don't convert?
BeatyAFI14 6 months ago
@BeatyAFI14 Glad to answer your question.
Generally speaking girls who are not yet 16 are not supposed to date Girls who are between about 16 and 19 are strongly encouraged to double date. We believe that you tend to marry the people that you date and that you should therefore date people of similar background to yourself. For that reason it is best to date other LDS people, particularly under 25. But it is not forbidden to date non-LDS people.
ImLDSRU2 6 months ago
The problem that emerges however, is that LDS believe in being married for eternity in Temples. Non-members cannot go in the Temple and cannot get married there. So a relationship with a non-Member is requires the member to compromise this goal, which is pretty important to us.
ImLDSRU2 6 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 Well I think she is different, all signs say she is. I think she knows love shouldn't have rules.
BeatyAFI14 6 months ago
@BeatyAFI14 That's not true. As with every human activity, there are always rules.
ImLDSRU2 6 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 What I'm trying to say is you can't stop love.
BeatyAFI14 6 months ago
@BeatyAFI14 Oh, you absolutely can. Love is a choice. We are in control. We are not mindless automatons.
ImLDSRU2 6 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 Ok thank you, but what if I fall in love with this person but don't choose to join the church. Is that fine? Her parents are very strict and I just don't know how they would take it to find out that I am not in fact Mormon.
BeatyAFI14 6 months ago
@BeatyAFI14 Well, first of all, she has to also agree that she wants to marry you. Its not a one way street.
If she wants to, there's not much her parents will be able to do about it. But if she were my daughter she would probably not be interested in dating a man who was not willing to join the Church. But this girl might be different.
ImLDSRU2 6 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 watch?v=KoYWDCwxExs&feature=related
This is how I see Jesus, and probably how all the others that you label as anti-Christ view God.
FallingUpification 7 months ago
Why does it seem that leaders of the church talk weird to seem more dramatic
bobbyraejohnson 8 months ago
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“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool”.
This is more true than you realise. It’s true because when you’ve fooled yourself, you don’t know it. You convince yourself that you haven’t fooled yourself, and you develop a conviction, a faith, a belief about it. You'll be quite irrational in defence of this belief. You won't test your belief in an empirical scientific fashion. Instead, when challenged, you'll become defensive or incredulous.
54v115 8 months ago
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Truth and in the absence of evidence to support the validity of the Book of Mormon as a historical document, LDS Apostle Russle M Nelson stated regarding the Book of Mormon..."...You can invite a friend to read the book of mormon. Explain that it is not a novel, or a historical book...". (see LDS dot Org).
If it's not a historical account as it's always been presented up until this statement.. what does it make the Book?
You can trust the Bible, it is a historical Book.
54v115 8 months ago
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The mormon church has made it's members want things they don't need or exist by linking mass produced LDS doctrine and ideas to peoples unconscious desires. Out of this comes a new political idea of how to control the membership. By satisfying members inner selfish desires, the church has made it's people happy and thus docile. The start of the all consuming self, man-made idols of the self, which has come to dominate the church today. The church of Joseph Smith and his latter day saints.
54v115 8 months ago
another sad and pitiful person who's got nothing good to do to himself but destroy others.
you think your smart enough to say those things?
think again :))
tsk.
you're a very sad sad sad person who's trying to correct things he doesn't even know and understand..
jashercOre 8 months ago
Uh..Jesus paid for our stupidity. Its call grace. Thank you Jesus!!
jeanniem76 9 months ago
I've never actually read the Didache but love the Life vs. Death as a choice concept and will study this further.
While the atonement is infinite and eternal, individual choices are totally binary. I often ask myself, will this choice make me more free or more enslaved?
Most fundamentalist Christians get this part exactly right. The choice between liberty and eternal life or captivity and death belongs to the individual.
I don't think we get to choose how good of a Savior Jesus is though.
ctrpapa 9 months ago
@ctrpapa Some Protestants get the choice bit wrong. Any hard Calvinist gets it wrong.
ImLDSRU2 9 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 - Yeah I never understood how so many fundamentalists could have faith in a binary atonement (1/0, on/off, saved/damned)
Jesus certainly didn't teach that. I lived next door to a Muslim family growing up and they were the best "Christians" on the block. I work with quite a few Atheists who also follow the teachings of Jesus better than a lot of Christians
(John 14:2) - In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
ctrpapa 9 months ago
@ctrpapa I think that the reason for the Binary Atonement concept was that, while Jesus *secretly* taught degrees of glory to His Apostles, His over message stuck to the theme that has resonated throughout the message of God through all ages: The message of the two paths or the two ways. This message was found in ancient religions, including Judaism and in Christianity of the early Church. The Didache starts with this very idea: There are two ways -- one of life and one of death.
ImLDSRU2 9 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 over=public
ImLDSRU2 9 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 Hello my friend< the lier and anti-christ here, so what happened to the last common? where you able to find the church history i sent you? or you just ignore it because it would have been so painful to see what you prophet said about the Word of God?
Chinaculiacan 9 months ago
@Chinaculiacan I have no idea what you are rambling and babbling about.
ImLDSRU2 9 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 (Joseph Smith) Besides his assertion that the Book of Mormon was far superior to the Bible, he charged that the Bible had been changed by "Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests... " (History of the Church, vol. 6, page 57) Oh yes you do!! :) Rings the bell?
Chinaculiacan 9 months ago
@Chinaculiacan You are resorting to lies. You are anti-Christ.
ImLDSRU2 9 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 LOL.. Hope you keep taking your Ensure.
Chinaculiacan 9 months ago
@Chinaculiacan <-- anti-Christ loves to make lies and tell them.
ImLDSRU2 9 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 Yes, and i have 5 arms, :)
Chinaculiacan 9 months ago
@Chinaculiacan Doesn't matter how many arms you have -- you love to tell lies (this thing about 5 arms is probably another lie) and you are anti-Christ.
ImLDSRU2 9 months ago
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@ImLDSRU2 Hahahahaha!!! Can't prove me wrong.
Chinaculiacan 9 months ago
@Chinaculiacan Hey there. ImLDSRu2 says I am an anti-christ too. Shall we all have a party and dance around a campfire? I bet those few extra arms come in handy! I think we should ask him to amen his assertions to anti-mormon-christ. I'm comfortable with that label - hows about you? :)
pierre777able 9 months ago
@pierre777able LOL, Indeed i am. I've asked him if he took his Ensure, but he says he doesn't need it, because he follows the Word of Wisdon and his healthy, :) I asked him if Jose followed the Word of Wisdom, but he won't tell me either. LOL :) He won't go any further than to call me anti-christ, lier and on. But hasn't proven me wrong about his church history. :)
Chinaculiacan 9 months ago
@Chinaculiacan ...well, it is a lot easier to point the finger and shout "infidel!" than prove the unprovable.
I've always liked the way that Mormons think you can earn your salvation...work at it baby work at it...and when someone points out that "all your righteousness is a fility rags"..well, thats a misinterpretation.... oy vey...
pierre777able 9 months ago
@pierre777able Not too long ago I place a post about what Mormons have to deal every time Joseph is mentioned. Being LDS means one has to carry the lies and all that is said about Jose, marrying other mans wives, little girls as 14, and false prophesies, among other things, like a Chain ball stock to their leg, I asked where's the life in that? but most of all, where's the freedom in that? Jesus has given us freedom through his sacrifice, has given us freedom, because he came 2 set us free.
Chinaculiacan 9 months ago
@Chinaculiacan True. An interesting quote I ran across last week - Truth without love is brutality, love without truth is hypocrisy. I don't quite understand why mormons cling so hard to the "love without truth" part, when it is so obviously wrong...
pierre777able 9 months ago
@pierre777able It was probably me lol, I've posted it so many times, and it has been removed. Lol, I guess it was too strong for an LDS to recognize the truth behind it. But in reality is true, being an LDS has to bear José’s past and actions, is like a dead man hanging in your shoulder, when the birds come, they pick on the dead body, and on the one caring it. Ouch. No such thing with Jesus of Nazareth, He has come to give us life, freedom, and a way to the Father. Alleluya 2 the Lamb of God.
Chinaculiacan 9 months ago
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@pierre777able Mormons don't do that. You are a liar.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 ...Universalism is indeed love without truth. Your ad hominem argument exposes you for what you are.
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able You are a liar. I made no ad hominem argument
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 Ad hominem - is an attempt to link the truth of a claim to a negative characteristic or belief of the person advocating it. You seek to discredit my statement about universalism/mormonism by calling me a liar.
Facts - hard to argue with them.....
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able Once again you lie. I didn't seek to discredit any statement you made. You do that yourself by being a liar. I just identified you. There wasn't any argument involved.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 ....Funny. Ok. Lets take this one small chunk of fact at a time. Line upon line, precept upon precept. Does the bible teach that those who don't accept Jesus' sacrifice upon the cross for their sin will go to hell?
pierre777able 8 months ago
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@pierre777able Everyone goes to hell. Why should I submit to your inquisition?
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
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@ImLDSRU2 Why should I submit to your inquisition? Because you call me a liar - and this is an opportunity for you to prove me a liar or simply admit that you find it easier to point fingers and call people names than as 1 Peter 3 suggests, to have an answer ready for the hope that you have.
So everybody goes to hell? I was not aware of that particular LDS doctrine - or are we playing around with gehenna/hades/hell words?
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able ...no response?
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able His two favorite words with me are hypocrite and liar. He calls me a liar when I say anything about the LDS. He even called me a liar for quoting verses from the BoM.
cagray05 8 months ago
@cagray05 Funny thing is he also identifies himself as a "Bishop" which I find just too funny. LOL. It seems to be that as you work yourself into a more senior position within the church, you just become more blind to the truth - which is logical, I suppose - you would necessarily need to be more blind to the truth in order to lead slightly less blind people in more blindness, would you not :) ??
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able He calls people names in a way to attempt to nullify their argument. He called me a liar when I quoted from the BoM. He called me a liar when I quoted from the King Follett Discourse. He called me a hypocrite because I would not accept a Muslim's interpretation of the Bible. I wonder if he is really LDS or not.
cagray05 8 months ago
@cagray05 ...gosh! do you think he might be...a liar? :) LOL
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able Since we are all sinners, it is possible.
cagray05 8 months ago
@cagray05 ...no no! he is an LDS Bishop - they are transcendant! Surely they have moved beyond the "temptations of the flesh" !
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able He seems a bit angry at times.
cagray05 8 months ago
@cagray05 ..it's not suprising with all us liars lieing at him. Well, I did point out to him that he was a hypocrite...didn't like that much....
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able You are both liars and anti-Christs. You love lies. You make lies and then you seek to destroy the Faith of the Saints of God with those lies.
It comes out of an evil heart.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 "You are both liars and anti-Christs. You love lies. You make lies and then you seek to destroy the Faith of the Saints of God with those lies.It comes out of an evil heart. " So, to look at this another way, If I am a liar, then obviously I am of my father, satan - Jesus' "sprit brother". So, what does it matter? In your theology it makes very little difference, does it not?
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able It makes a great deal of difference. But I can see how you would not detect this difference.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 How so? Is God going to throw me into hell?
pierre777able 8 months ago
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@pierre777able Everyone goes to hell.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
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@ImLDSRU2 "Everyone goes to hell." You are a liar. There are some who did not go to the grave (as you have decided to play with words). Liar Liar, pants on fire!
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able ... and here is the latest from the self proclaimed bishop:
Re: One notes
You are now blocked for lying about me.
Sent to: pierre777able
Too much of an ignorant coward to face the truth...... LOL.
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able ..ImLDSRU2 makes me laugh - heres a self proclaimed bishop of the LDS Church. Everyone who points out to him that the LDS church is founded on the writings of a liar and conman get called a liar - anyone who challenges him to prove that they are lying gets called an anti christ. Yet when you catch him in his lies, you get block. Coward, hypocrite & liar. Demonstratably so. Yet he maintains he is a "saint" based on his own righteousness. LOLOLOL
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able
What a liar.
You have not caught me in any lies.
I do not call anyone who challenges my views - liars. I only reserve that for people who knowingly tell falsehoods, who misrepresent the truth, who ... lie.
As you are doing now.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 ...ah, but I can prove you are lying...and you cannot prove that I am. That you don't like the truth is obvious - that your simplistic defence mechanish is to call people liars who disagree with you is also obvious.
Denial, crocodile.
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able Again you lie. You cannot prove such a thing. You lie over and over and over. It is your nature. You are anti-Christ and the truth is not in you.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
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@ImLDSRU2 ...you see the basic problem with your reasoning process is that you are unable to believe that you can be wrong. It does not seem to be possible to you so you just call people names. You don't seem able to reason at all. So, I shall prove it to you from your own posts: "@pierre777able Everyone goes to hell." Enoch and Elijah ring any bells for you? So you lied in trying to avoid the question in typical playing with words style. Tell me who is the liar now you pharisee?
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able You are a total liar and anti-Christ.
I will not tolerate vulgar disrespect in PM's sent to me. I prefer you make your rude comments in public for others to observe your blatant hypocrisy and evil nature.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 ....oh er...vulgar disrespect? Have an high opinion of yourself don't you? "I can stand on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness" - thats what I stand on. You appear to be standing on something else......
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able Yes, vulgar disrespect. I prefer you make your hypocrisy and lies public.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 which bit of hypocrisy was that?
pierre777able 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 ...no answer as to the hypocrisy question as of yet...
pierre777able 8 months ago
@pierre777able I do not hold anti-Christs and hypocrites in such respect that every time they demand an answer, I will give them one. However, I have already answered this long ago.
When we first talked, you had the opportunity to have a reasonable discussion. You bypassed that and went straight for your anti-Christ issues.
Next time you want to seduce a Saint of God, keep your true nature secret a bit longer.
ImLDSRU2 8 months ago
@ImLDSRU2 ....seduce....lol....homosexuality might well be your thing bishop, but it certainly isn't one of mone..LOL. Hows that going to stack up in your version of the kingdom come - how you going to produce "spirit children" with a