People's Summit • Detroit, Michigan • RenCen Protest • 6/16/09

[Garage191]

Yay Unions keep fighting the Good fight. Working very hard with long hours. I have worked in non Unions and Unions factory. Unions factory way better. Some comments know they never work in a factory. Screw in a bolt? Wow! $14 an hour is not much. CEO'S can suck it. My friend is a tow trunk driver hated to help rich people out he got no respect . Now he's recovering he loves when he taking the cars from the rich side of town to the impound lot.

[gesiriech]

I always buy used cars. I can't afford to buy a car from someone making $80/hr.

Its as simple as the math. The UAW fleas killed the dog that was hosting it.

[FlintPublic]

Autoworkers now make $14/hr. and can't afford new cars either. You're right, it's simple math. If we all "compete" ourselves down to the wages wall street wants, only wall street will be able to afford the products & services we build & provide. Our labor creates ALL wealth.

[dirtydigi222]

It's about priorities... but it seems the one dudes priority is the ass on the girl in the white shirt that passed by @ 3:10 =P

[ilovelonell]

its not a right but its a necessity to survive dumbass!

[bizznych]

Does anyone now remember the battle of Blair Mountain or the Flint strikes of the 30s? Soldiers were called out to shoot the workers who demanded some basic concessions. Pittsburgh and Detroit were impoverished hellholes of exploitation before the unions, don't pretend otherwise.

So the other end is just slavery...

[ellaelizabeth]

Somehow I doubt you are from Miami sir.

Part of the the joy of capitalsim is that if someone puts out a better car cheaper than people will buy it and your butt is on the street. If you screw in a bolt and get paid 6 figures your company cannot stay competive and you're out on the street. Congratulation folks. GM sucks!

[FlintPublic]

I'll work for 5¢. Can you beat that? Hope I buy an education for 2¢? A car to drive me to class for 2¢? And healthcare, food, clothing & shelter for 1¢? Oh joy!

[DonavenJ]

A job is not a right!

[sk8well37]

capitalism does work.....unless the guy with all the money files for bankruptcy and leaves the country. unions suck. liberals suck. politicians suck. religions suck. socialism really fucking sucks. bacon. bacon is the only thing in this entire world that does not suck. i love bacon.

[kiwiSgtMaj]

Yeah, the latino guy wearing the che shirt is contradicting the hell out of himself. He has no idea that communism and socialism are complete bullshit. thats why his ass is in america enjoying capitalism. that he supposedly hates. hes pissed he isnt getting enough welfare

[kh739]

A filthy, filthy capitalist made the shirt he is wearing.

:D

[FlintPublic]

No. It was made by the worker-owners of a democratically run co-op. Do you get to vote on all decisions at your place of work?

[kh739]

I own the place where I *work*. ;)

[FlintPublic]

Do your employees get a vote in key decisions?

[kiwiSgtMaj]

They are asking for help from the same people who are fucking them over. that IS ridiculous. Looks like the real scum are looking for a handout.

[macleod212]

socialism is what they want. free money and no freedom. Free healthcare. The key word is FREE. not work. FREE. They dont realise that the democrats are the ones stealing their shit. ha ha ha dumbasses.

[Umberto2]

No, paying income taxes is not what I would consider "free."

[FlintPublic]

Our labor creates ALL wealth.

[macleod212]

Haaaaa!!! The communist guy from miami talking about helping people. Are these people for real? they are talking about getting bailouts, where the hell do you think the ceos are getting their money from??? Liberals of course. like Obama. You want freedom? get rid of the UAW and the democratic party. theyre the ones who bailout the unions.

[TheDocinOC]

Very poor video response. The unions ruined GM and the other two of the Big 3. america cannot compete. This film is bullshit. I haveNO benefits at the job I work, and I don't whine about it. These ppl are putting compies out of business.

[FlintPublic]

Companies are putting people out of their homes. PS: Sounds like you need a union.

[TheDocinOC]

I know you mean well by saying I need a union at work, but it seems they take your money and do little for you. That is why GM could no longer make it. My employer is a small guy anyway, he'd have to go out of biz.

[FlintPublic]

GM's union labor (wages & benefits) accounted for just 8% of the production costs of any vehicle. And that was BEFORE they agreed to the $14/hr. and other concessions in 2007, BEFORE the bankruptcy charade (which only applies to US operations!) Global cooperation. Global profits. Domestic bankruptcy union strangling. Learn the real racket, folks. PS: I feel you about working for a small employer. But unions did give all of us the 8-hr. day, vacations, health & safety standards, weekends, etc.

[ZackSMiller22]

@FlintPublic Where did you get the 8% figure.

[FlintPublic]

@ZackSMiller22 Can't find the exact source and can't post a link. But there is an entry on fact check dot org

[CaterpillarKiller]

I also got a call from one of my college roommates last night who said he had to compliment the editor of this video "FOR MANIPULATING MY WORDS TO SERVE THEIR AGENDA." I have to agree with him. Allow me to clarify: I do not believe in unions, I hate them. The only thing I actually like about them is the education some of them provide. Instead, I believe in paying people what they are worth and educating them so they do not feel the need to unionize.  What an idea!?!

[ScubaSteve1974]

Caterpillar, theoretically, I believe people should have the right to band together to amplify their voice through collective bargining. That said, union members consistently show a bloated value of their own importance, economic ignorange, a pathetic "victim" mentality, and support for corrupt labor monopolies more destructive than any corporate monopoly. I have a problem with their using the government to impose their demands, and the childish rantings of the members.

[FlintPublic]

Then theoretically you should join the fight to bring true democracy to unions, if not the whole economy! What is the value of an airline pilot when you're a thousand feet up? Or the autoworker who put in your brakes when you're inches from the wall? Or a stock-jobber when he's betting on the dollar to fail? You can lambast the working class for not grasping the "new-math" of casino capitalism, but you'd be revealing your own ignorance on much more fundamental matters regarding value & worth.

[ScubaSteve1974]

REASON 1:

OK, since the union goon is in control of the driver's safety, the goon's value is enhanced.

Lets go with that.

What about the engineer that invented the brake that made that job possible or the capitalist that provides the job? According to your logic, their values must be even more important since the goon's entire life is dependent upon them just like the driver is dependent upon the goon's ability to install a brake!

[ScubaSteve1974]

REASON 2:

If the goon's skills were of such high value, then he should be able to hold out his skills until he finds someone who will pay him what he believes he is worth.

What you fail to understand is that true capitalism is the very definition of a fair economic system because the people can freely interact and determine these things for themselves.

Things always get fouled up when the ignorant demand politicians muck up the system with excessive regulations--> Welcome to Michigan!

[FlintPublic]

I invite you watch American hero & "union goon" Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger's testimony to Congress regarding the future of piloting & airline safety. (I've favorited it on my main channel page.)

Are you suggesting he doesn't have valuable skills? That he should be forced to work multiple jobs & fly exhausted? That he shouldn't be able to retire?

Capitalism is nothing without labor. Capitalism is nothing without people earning enough money to buy goods & services. Our labor creates ALL wealth.

[FlintPublic]

Chris, sorry you feel misrepresented. But thanks again for of your willingness to talk to us & for clarifying your views here. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the idea of true democracy in the workplace: like the co-op models of Alvarado Street Bakery & others. Also, how do you suggest that the societal issues the market ignores (climate change, healthcare, education, etc.) be dealt with? If education is the solution, why can't our best & brightest find these solutions?

[ScubaSteve1974]

In other words, your position is so strong that you had to blatantly misrepresent someone to make your case, and then you say you "feel sorry" but apparently not sorry enough to do the right thing and modify the video to accurately reflect his position! I guess it doesn't matter who you stomp on when the goal is for FlintPublic to get what FlintPublic wants. Hey, isn't that what you people complain about when a wealthy person does it?

[FlintPublic]

There are no edits between my questions and his answers. I don't sound bite people. Nor do I alter moments after the fact simply because people have had more time to formulate what they believe are better answers.

[CaterpillarKiller]

I'll actually say that I later remembered who FlintPublic was. I had been talking to another crew for a few minutes when he came up and captured a few things I was saying plus asked a few questions of his own. He is right, he does not edit, he just wasn't there to capture all of what I said so I feel bad for that accusation...

[gratewhitehuntr]

Any means is justified to achieve their goals.

THAT is the "Progressive" (or whatever the hell you call yourselves) mindset.

Instead of placing honesty and work ethic first, the GOAL is first-middle-last.

By any means necessary.

[CaterpillarKiller]

Well one of the ideas that was being widely discussed was corporate sponsorship of schools and filling the gaps between public funding and where the schools need to be. In true, ethical capitalism (not Enron, Tyco, etc), it is in the company's best interest to insure the education of everyone. It was also agreed upon in the summit that the reason we were loosing jobs overseas is because our educational system has fallen behind so horribly.

[CaterpillarKiller]

Climate change: consumers now more than ever are demanding that companies act responsibly or else they will not buy products or services from them. Thus, the market has dictated the solution and it is fixing itself and gaining momentum. All in all, capitalism is beginning to be redefined, especially in the last 20-25 years or so. The middle class is dissappearing because they are making more money than ever and becoming upper class citizens.

[CaterpillarKiller]

Frankly, our economy is getting more and more open and transparent each day, especially within the last 20 years or so and even moreso in the last 10 years. To be a major player in the economy and make millions, you don't have to be born into anything or have a name to rely on, the system is getting easier and easier to climb. Online degrees, billions of dollars in untapped grants and scholarships, its all just sitting there waiting for ANYONE to learn how to do whatever it is they want!

[FlintPublic]

Chris, thanks for setting the record straight on the interview. Very stand up. We'll have to agree to disagree about the reality of education & upward mobility. I mean, who's against education, right? But "get a degree" is the new "get a job." Oversimplified answers meant to distract from real forces like wage stagnation, debt-traps, unfair trade, etc. and put all fault of failure onto the individual. Education is great, but not an economic plan - it's a platitude.

[FlintPublic]

Plus, there are real moral & social problems w/ the capitalist belief that everything under the sun should be commercialized. We've seen how applying the profit motive to treatment of the sick & dying plays out. People die so shareholders can get richer. For-profit education has similar pitfalls. As does privatizing the military. How can we say education is the answer, that we'll "leave no child behind," when Blackwater mercenaries get more tax-payer money than the entire US Dept. of Education?

[FlintPublic]

There is also the false belief that US workers aren't as skilled as their overseas counterparts. The reality is that US workers simply aren't as desperate, exploitable, cheap (yet). Search youtube for "Engineering Skills in the US vs China & India." You'll find a Duke professor refuting the notion that ours are less skilled, just more unwilling to discount their skills for a bunch of talentless profit-junkies on Wall St. There are no compassionate (or patriotic) corporations; just bottom lines.

[FlintPublic]

And why do Economics Depts at (most) institutions of higher learning ignore, dismiss or are openly hostile to the field of Ecological Economics. Unlike the ridiculous neo-classical assumption of "unlimited growth in a finite world," Ecological Economics takes the natural world, human happiness & genuine progress into account as measures of true "success." It's pathetic how they buzz over "innovation" - then teach economics like backwoods creationists. Is that really education? Or indoctrination?

[EasyEs]

Because they understand that a resource isn't a resource unless someone finds a way to create wealth out of it. Also value and growth rates are not intrinsic to the physical resources of a product compared to the intellectual capital that went into it.

Ie. software is nothing but a CD or some lines fo code but it can have incredible value and wealth creating potential.

That is why they don't take that premise seriously...

[EasyEs]

You need to understand economics...for profit education is a bad thing?..why is it that other nations that allow companies to make a profit off government money have better education results then the American public school systems.

[CaterpillarKiller]

Well considering the fact that you put me in your video (a capitalist until death) I'm completely proud of what capitalism has achieved. In socialism, no one can achieve their hopes and dreams of doing what they want to do. Instead, an oppressive government dictates what everyone will do and like. Sorry, but that's not my idea of nirvana. Obviously capitalism and freedom has served you well by being able to post videos like this on YouTube.

[ScubaSteve1974]

CaterpillarKiller, the post to which I am responding contains too much logic for these union goons to understand. I find it more productive to write them off as utterly useless, mock them, and allow them to continue being responsible for moving manufacturing offshore. Arguing with these people would be like arguing with a flock of pigeons on why they shouldn't poop on freshly washed cars. You are beyond them. Their ignorance forces them to be unable to understand. Better to laugh at them.

[CaterpillarKiller]

[Socialists] promise the blessings of the Garden of Eden, but they plan to transform the world into a gigantic post office. - Ludwig von Mises

[FlintPublic]

According to the Ludwig von Mises Institute's "about' page: "Mises concluded that the only viable economic policy for the human race was a policy of unrestricted laissez-faire, of free markets and the unhampered exercise of the right of private property, with government strictly limited to the defense of person and property within its territorial area."

We've tried lord & vassal systems numerous times. They never work. Have we really forgotten the failure of Greenspan, Friedman & Co. already?!

[CaterpillarKiller]

I'm Chris Stinson. I'd like to add that its time for people to begin to put their ideas into action and start businesses to fill a need for each other. DO NOT look to your governement for help, they've payed enough money and they take too much from not only the rich but hard working families and families that have no where to work anymore to give to drug addicts and people who abuse the system. VOTE LIBERTARIAN!!

[FlintPublic]

Nobody is against personal liberty & there are a lot of issues Ron Paul is right about. Free market libertarian capitalism is not one of them. The fundamental problem with libertarians' fixation on liberty is that it trumps equality, opportunity, social justice & reality. It's the logic that gives individuals (& corporations who are considered individuals in the eyes of laws written by libertarians) the freedom to exploit the planet & its people without end...which is what causes collapses.

[human3485bil]

Right on with this. Why don't we see this Leftist radical grass roots movement stuff like this in the mainstream media?

Even the pseudo "liberal media" only covers the right wing idiots.

[MegaJimmy777]

The only jobs left in this country are mostly in the service industry. Did you take note of all those cops at the entrance to the building holding the meeting? There was probably a half a million dollars of tax payer wages holding the exploited back from entering. Flipping burgers and waiting tables,sweeping,cleaning etc are the abundant jobs right now. Those jobs will be secure until the unemployment benefits run out. We are in the eye of the storm, the next big wave is coming,get ready!

[ScubaSteve1974]

"Waaah! I want someone to give me healthcare!"

"Waaah! I want someone to give me housing!"

"Waaah! I want someone to give me food!"

"GIMMIE! GIMMIE! GIMMIE!"

I freaking love how bad things are in Michigan. It's so hysterical how the so-called progressive, anti-business, anti-liberty people in Michigan vote for business killing politicians and then whine about their lot in life. I *LOVE* this! If only a wall could be built around that worthless state.

[statelybird3]

Excuse me--I'm a member of one of the groups that was out there protesting with these folks--we are in NO way shape or form anti-business or anti-liberty---and I live in this so-called worthless state. Why the hell do you love that things are bad in Michigan--why the fuck are you glad that we have the highest unemployment rate in the nation? Apparently you don't live here or you wouldn't be saying that ignorant BS. The economic collaspe had nothing to do with business-killing politicians.

[ScubaSteve1974]

Statelybird3, I can't be happier that you are reaping the rewards of your ignorance.

[kukynphunt]

That' was a very unAmerican, unPatriotic statement, many young men and women from Michigan are in Iraq and Afghanastan, maybe when they come home, I tell them to pay you a visit.

[ScubaSteve1974]

kukynphunt, you watched that video filled with the most ignorant, government-dependent, freedom-fearing individuals infecting America but you find MY comment unpatriotic? You sound like you're probably of the same dirt-for-brains that were highlighted in that video. The best part about this is that it's no longer theory: those tools are suffering from the very policies they are fighting to impose and they're too stupid to realize it. Rarely is karma so obvious.

[kukynphunt]

The people in the video do not represent the entire population of Michigan. I find that people who generalize are ignorant assholes, that's your Karma, dildo! There are many military men in women who are from Michigan fighting for you so called "freedom", so calling it a "worthless state" is a slap in the face to those particular Americans. Put it to you this way, it would be like me saying that your state is worthless, because you live there!! Generalizing is not an intelligent form of debate!!

[ScubaSteve1974]

The majority of the people in Michigan continue to bend over and hand the closest socialist a broom handle so that they can get their colon cleaned. I'm amused that Michigan is the epicenter of the recession, and the worse it gets the more government control the people demand. I'd love to see things get even worse ther. Who cares if there are enlisted there? The patriotic ones did it to escape, and the socialist ones, well, i guess they fill that ol' liberal stereotype don't they? ;)

[kukynphunt]

The majority of Michigan? How can you speak for the entire state of Michigan. Do you have some delusional asshole entitlement authority? Those service men and women will more than likely return to Michigan when they are discharged. From what I have read the problem in these areas of Michigan were caused by the automobile industry, and the unions, both are to blame. Maybe if there was more Government intervention prior, the disaster in Flint, and Detroit could have been avoided.

[ScubaSteve1974]

I don't need to speak for the people of that state, kukynphunt. The voters express their obedience to the left's propaganda engine at every election. I'm sure that every socialist in Michigan has their own favorite celebrity or rock band that they obey (John Stewart, George Clooney, Letterman, Greenday etc...) but the conclusion is always the same: liberty is to be feared and a big bad government making all their life decisions is embraced. You and your ilk are a joke and a cancer on society.

[kukynphunt]

Again you make a generalization, I am an independent, you FAIL again! I don't live there, however I know people who do, and they are right wing all the way to pro-life, fucktard! I suppose you voted for the Pus/McBitch ticket, that women Palin is one of the stupidest Bithches I have ever heard speak, ya that ticket was a real winner, a dead guy and a bimbo!

[ScubaSteve1974]

*OH HEAVENS! I MADE A GENERALIZATION!" Well, perhaps instead of condemning me for noticing the widespread subhuman intelligence of the people of Michigan, you should condemn those who embody the generalization? Trust me, there are plenty of knuckle-dragging, liberty-fearing, greedy, uneducated, unwashed union goons in Michigan for you to point your little finger at!

Ah... I bet in the time span between my posts another 2000 union goons lost their jobs. Makes me smile!

[kukynphunt]

You have made 3-4 generalizations during this debate. I tend to look more at individuals behind the scenes like; Roger Smith, Robert Rubin, Henry Paulson, Goldman in Sachs, and let's not forget good ole Alan deregulating derivatives send the money to Isreal Greenspan!!! I don't like to see any American lose their jobs, it is better that they have jobs, and are productive. Maybe you should live in another country, if you hate your fellow Americans so much, try Iraq maybe.

[FlintPublic]

I just love the modern stock-jobber machismo that says, "A real man calls working men goons and that "liberty" should be used to heap praise and manly respect on douche-bag speculators, number crunchers and other soft-handed exploiters of actual labor. Liberty for the powerful at the expense of equality for all is an ass-kissing toady's definition of the American Dream. PS: John Wayne had a tanning booth, testosterone-worshiper.

[ScubaSteve1974]

FlintPublic, you are (surprise surprise) showing an incredible lack of logic. I am not calling working men goons, I am calling the mindless automatons that are the highlight of your video goons. Technically, I am acknowleding that those people are goons.

The ignorance shown by the goons in your video on the topics of liberty and economics is truly astounding. It has got to take work to achieve that level of ignorance. People like that aren't worth helping. They should be mocked.

[statelybird3]

No,Scuba, YOU"RE a fucking joke----we were NOT there to ask the government to make all our decisions for us---that's not even what that whole protest was about--oh,never mind--I already expalined what it was about,but you're just one of these fucking trolls talking a bunch of stupid shit anyway, so the hell with you and your willful ignorance, and fuck off. Your precious right wing right sure as hell doen't seem to be offering any solutions to recovering the economy as far as I can see.

[statelybird3]

They were protesting the fact that not only are they getting laid off by the thousands,they're losing their pensions, jobs have been getting outsourced by the dozens, and these CEOS should have been coming to Detroit to figure out HOW to create new jobs or hiring these laid-off workers instead of sitting around talking about how the economy could be improved when it's already fucked up and not getting any better. These are the people who MAKE the cars you drive, you fucking idiot. SO fuck you!

[ScubaSteve1974]

It is not the CEO's responsibility to create jobs. It is the CEO's responsibility to grow a profitable company for those who own the company.

It amuses me how the people of MI (and elsewhere) fail to see how the oppressive regulations imposed by our government is the very reason businesses are forced to move offshore. You fight for the very rules that cause your unemployment! You all re so dense you cannot even understand that even communist CHINA has more economic liberty than the USA!

[FlintPublic]

The Economy is too important to be entrusted solely to people who's only motivation is ever-expanding profit for the employing/investing class. If you'll remember, they are the ones who brought down the global economy with that short-sighted thinking. Justifying the powerful elite's freedom to exploit and plunder the planet and its people as "liberty" is just about the dumbest & most dangerous logic I can imagine. The rest of us call such arrangements "tyranny." PS: OUR LABOR CREATES ALL WEALTH

[ScubaSteve1974]

All I see here in these comments is ignorance, a fear of freedom, and contempt for those who embrace life.You misguided types actually believe capitalism brought down the global economy, yet you turn a blind eye to the historically stagnant european economy, and the failed economies of the USSR, the Soviet block,North Korea,and Cuba.You turn a blind eye to the successes in China as they abandon your beliefs,and the the decomposition of Venezula which has adopted them.

Your ignorance is funny.

[FlintPublic]

Blind eye? Like the ones that never see the poisoning of children, workers & the environment in China? Like the spiking wealth & income disparity in the US over the last three decades? Like failing to acknowledge that France is recovering faster than the US & has had a higher quality of life index than the no-vacation, no-benefits, wage-stagnating "freedom" of US wage slaves for years? This aint 1957. Your ideological, fact-fudging & red-baiting games don't work no more. What else you got?

[ScubaSteve1974]

"...don't work no more" Wow. I hope that's slang.

Arguing economics against you is clearly on par with discussing physics with a flock of pigeons. You are sitting in the very hell-hole resulting from only a portion of your beloved politics being implemented and yet you continue to boast your ignorance on economics!

Yea, China's a real hell hole the way its standard of living is increasing as it sheds your policies. And France? WOW! Soon it will return its 10% unemployed prosperity days!

[ScubaSteve1974]

I love how the unproductive, ignorant, unambitious sit around and tell everyone else what they're supposed to do with the fruits of their labor.

Since you people refuse to understand what's going on you deserve to suffer its consequences. Here's hoping that the recession lasts as long as possible in Michigan! I want to see riots! I want to see a bunch of angry rednecks, union goons, and crackheads drive all of the remaining achievers out of your state! Then I want a wall built around it!

[FlintPublic]

You were right all along, Steve. Sincerest apologies. We'll all just save up our $14/hr. paychecks, forego our health insurance, go to an Ivy League school, earn MBAs, stoke our ambition with dreams of high-end prostitutes, Connecticut, devising the most diabolically productive life insurance-based bonus schemes & celebrating with more powder cocaine than all the led paint chips in China! A nation of alpha investors, fantasy finance studs & social media consultants. A riot indeed!

[ScubaSteve1974]

$14 an hr? Don't whine to me that you squandered your education and made bad life decisions!

It looks to me like you've got all the answers. Kudos! I'm going to fight your ilk at the national level, but at the state level? More power to you! Like I said, your kind is hopeless, so keep voting and regulating the hell out of business in MI. It's clearly working well for you there! And you can be a lesson for the uninformed who have not closed their minds yet.

[FlintPublic]

Squandered education? Bad life decisions? You know, you're a real self-righteous prick, Steve. I don't know what kind of neighborhood & family situation you grew up in, but getting straight As & making all the right "life decisions" doesn't guarantee anyone that they can afford college & become indoctrinated w/ neo-classical economic BS & join the ranks of finance industry bubble blowers or self-deified entrepreneur class. Both of whom have received more breaks & handouts than our "ilk" lately.

[ScubaSteve1974]

Yup. Everyone in that video of yours sounds like a complete loser who expects Mommy Government to step in and run their life because they are too incompetent to do it themselves. People who are forward thinking and proactive do not exhibit the sad attitude illustrated within your video.

"Gimmie! Gimmie! Gimmie!" What a bunch of children.

How's that 15.2% unemployment working out for ya? Better cry out for even MORE regulations against those evil achievers! That will fix it!

[FlintPublic]

Steve. Do you expect us to take seriously the idea that those who created NINA loans, CDSs & all manner of worthless over investment in fantasy finance are, ha, "achievers?" The people in this video aren't asking for anything but a fair shake, fair trade, fair wages. Look up the figures on worker productivity over the last 30 yrs. Wages didn't go up w/ increased output because that money was being syphoned off by "achievers." Talk about entitlement! Talk about sad! Talk about getta education.

[ScubaSteve1974]

Wages didn't go up in 30 yrs? That's a lie. Many union wages are tied to the minimum federal wage rate so if it goes up then theirs goes up.

I know you're lying is because my dad was a member of the UAW at the Chrysler plant in Newark DE. I know he wasn't working for his mid-70s wages in the mid 90s.

Let's say you aren't lying. If those goons feel so underpaid, why didn't they take their "valuable" skills elsewhere or starttheir own business? Because their skills just aren't useful.

[statelybird3]

Fuck off, Steve---you don't live in Michigan, you're not suffering with anyone here,so why do you even give a fuck? As someone who has to see the city going down the tubes due to the economy, I don't find a fucking thing funny about any of it. So shut the hell up and go find some thing else to bitch about,you right--wing liberal hating asshole.

[ScubaSteve1974]

I care because the boneheads in Michigan that consistently vote for more economy-crushing regulations are the same boneheads that infest DC with idiots that have the power to screw up my life too.

I've spend time in Guatemala. Those people wear long clothes because exposing sweat to the wind will make you sick. They believe the ferdelance snake can fly. Like those in MI, they are dumb, but since they cannot regulate me I don't care. So secede from my country and do what you want.

[statelybird3]

What oppressive regulations? It was the lack of regulation of the real estate industry that caused our economy to dive into the toilet in the first damn place! You right-wingers kill me with that shit---if it was up to y'alll, the government wouldn't be regulating a damn thing, and the corporations would be breaking every damn rule they could get away with in the name of profit---but that wouldn't matter as long as the government stays out of your precious fucking business,right?

[ScubaSteve1974]

You've never employed anyone if you don't know how difficult the govt. makes it to employ people.

Stating that a lack of regulation caused the real estate decline is laughably ignorant. Real estate worked well with limited regulations for centuries because banks would lend only to those who could pay it back. It wasn't until the Community Reinvestment Act where the govt. forced banks to lend and the fraudulent Freddie Mac/Fannie Mae acted as a taxpayer funded safety net.

[ScubaSteve1974]

BTW: If capitalism was the reason for this mess* then why have all of your precious socialist and socialist-lite nations suffered as well?

* Laughing at this line because I find it funny that some actually think the USA has an economy based in capitalism.

[statelybird3]

Government-dependent freedom-fearing--ScubaSteve, I don't think YOU even know what the fuck you're talking about. We were protesting the fact that these CEOS running the biggest corporations were coming to the city that's the hardest economically hit and charging $1,200 just to register for the conference (they had to drop it to $600.00) where they were going to discuss new ways to improve the economy. The economy's already fucked up,and these WORKING people on the line with us were protesting

[1mealperday]

this is your only outlet?

[FlintPublic]

Um. No. There are infinite "outlets." You?

[statelybird3]

@ ScubaSteve1974

The economic collapse had nothing to do with business-killing politicians and everything to do with the unregulated housing industry causing the real estate bubble to burst. What people want--and what we were protesting about--was the fact that the banks got all these damn bailouts, and the fact that this war is draining the economy and costing a trillion dollars per year, as well as people getting laid off damn near every week--THAT'S what we're protesting about. Now shut up!