oh yes, and don't forget Cindy Jacobs the prophet. Oh yes, she named herself a prophet herself, gets messages from some spirit, and says she is holy. People, wake up!! this is no different then Tammy and Jim Baker. You are all being mislead and these people are making mucho money off of your backs.
listen to brannon howse - christian worldview network and hear what a phoney this man is, as well as David Barton. They just make up facts, and then say them like they are real. Stop trying to turn our country into a theocracy. Keep this crap in your false church.
our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments be Human Wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.
I therefore beg leave to move, that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business,
And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that "except the Lord build the House they labour in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests;
All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a Superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth- that God governs in the affairs of men.
In this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when presented to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings? In the beginning of the Contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the divine protection. ”Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Stop endorsing David Barton. He is a slick con artist who quote mines the founding fathers; rewrites history , and has been forced to admit many of his quotes are bogus. He KNOWS that his targeted audience is ignorant of the facts regarding American history, and the founding fathers.
Religion is behavioral construct of human evolution. Evolution guided the tendencies for both aggression and cooperation in Homo sapiens. Thus, religion, along with morphological characteristics in humans, evolved. Now, with greater knowledge than in the heyday of faith-based systems, we are closer to REAL the truth than ever. Science has led that search for truth ever since the Enlightenment, but religion has resisted, kicking, screaming, and refusing to progress ever since.
The nonreligious are growing rapidly (now at 15%) primarily because those like Barton, both a fundamentalist Christian and a conservative political activist, have successfully intertwined religion and politics. The founders knew separation was the best for religion. Not only does Barton lie and distort, he is effectively working against his goal. When you argue half of America is immoral and godless based on politics, that half will associate God with hypocrisy.
I have no quarrel with morality, and I have no quarrel with religion.. Neither is a term that I am aware of as being an issue in the founding of the country.
I appreciate your understanding the need for separation of church and state. But I don't quite go with the need for religion to have morality.
Hope I didn't run you off by bringing up relevant issues of colonial history, including the fact that the Puritans were not into religious liberty at all.
Not at all. I pointed out that the Puritans weren't for religious liberty. But the PILGRIMS were, and they were two different groups. Furthermore, I think the Puritans had good motives, albeit somewhat misguided.
Separation of church and state is important, but separation of religion and morality, which George Washington said were inseparable pillars, from the state was never the intention of any of our Founding fathers from any period.
I make boo boos too. I should have just ignored that.
2. I think that Anne Hutchinson and Roger Williams (who brought the Baptists to Rhode Island) would have disagreed with your assertion about religious liberty, as well as those others who were bullwhipped for disagreeing with the orthodox preachers.
3. The founders were dealing with a much broader country than Mass. and at a time later than the Puritans.
Well, Roger & Anne did not come out of Plymouth, and the religious freedom doctrine, which the Pilgrim's loved. The Puritans were not for separation of church and state. Furthermore, Anne H. was most-likely demon possessed. She was very aggressive, and eventually started teaching herself (which is unbiblical), and then shunned authority. Williams was a maverick who had issues, who was ultimately sent away with great remorse and grief; feeling they had to uphold the unity of the colony...
1. you are wrong = you're wrong. Check your spelling.
2. In Massachusetts, only members of the Congregational churches could vote in civil elections. Catholics were not allowed to do so and were considered deviants.
3. Why else did the evangelical movement get started other than out of disdain for the Anglican orthodoxy in the colonies?
4. The US has always been a X'n realm. But not a X'n government. Check the documents.
1. Sorry, typing too fast. (I obviously know the correct spelling--see my post below your last one). Not sure your motive in pointing that out.
2. Correct. But BEFORE Mass. was Plymouth, where religious liberty abounded. So either you'RE ignorant of colonial history, or you'RE being dishonest. Which is it?
3. There was no Anglican orthodoxy in Mass. or Plymouth. Both were CONGREGATIONALISTS.
4. Our gov't was established on Christian principals, as Adams said. He was there.
To clarify, Barton and Wallbuilders own approximately 100,000 original books and documents. That's a bit more than "some." They are very hard to refute, so most comments are ad hominem attacks against Barton's person and not his evidence, which is sound.
America's Christian roots are uncomfortable in our 2009 religious melting-pot of America. But they are what they are and we'd do well to go back to them before we are destroyed.
Does "owning" documents have anything to do with honesty, purpose, and facts? Nothing. He owns them so he can wave these obscure documents in front of people as a matter of rhetoric only. Instead of honesty, they contribute to his dishonesty.
No to honesty and perhaps purpose, but yes to facts. It sure does give you an edge on those who claim to "know" what the Founders believed by quoting their peers, who also don't know the originals, vs. quoting the Founders themselves. There is no proof that Barton has ever knowingly used the originals dishonestly, so your logic is skewed.
The real truth is that original sources are irrelevant in today's debate. The goal is not true history, but agenda-driven revision.
I find it ironic that you relegate Barton's 100,000 Founding books and documents to the "obscure," when you probably ardently march to the beat of the modern "Separation of Church and State" minstrels who proclaim their favorite phrase as "Constitutional,"; the said phrase being found in an equally obscure LETTER from Jefferson to a bunch of Baptists.
So tell me how Barton's enormous & RELEVANT library is obscure & that which (is claimed) to defend what you believe isn't?
No distinction seems to be more obvious than that between spiritual and temporal matters. Yet whenever they have been made objects of Legislation, they have clashed and contended with each other, till one or the other has gained the supremacy."
[James Madison in a letter to Thomas Jefferson Oct-Nov 1787]
Spiritual and temporal matters are the same as church and state.
''Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history. . .''
Separation between Religion and Govt is the same as separation of church and state.
@jfsfrnd The Founders never intended for the INFLUENCE of Christianity to be separated from any part of government. It's completely illogical to infer such an idea when most of the Founders were devout Christians.
Many are "Christian" in name only today, but it wasn't like that in the 1700s. If they were a Christian they lived like it, for the most part. One must be careful not to apply today's Christianity to 1700s Christianity.
False! American's heritage is most certainly Christian. And anyone who denies it is entirely ignorant of our history from 1620 onward.
God, Christianity, Jesus, etc. are all over American history, and it's incredible that people who only choose to look through 21st century glasses are the only ones who deny it. So live on in ignorance! But the facts go against them no matter how much they rant, cry, and spout their "secular America" worldview.
"God, Christianity, Jesus, etc. are all over American history"
What matters is our CONSTITUTION, our LAWS. Please name one single document that has the name of your god Jesus Christ on it? Name ONE single law that is based on christian law. You are the ignorant one.
Does the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE count? "We hold these TRUTHS to be self-evident, that all men are CREATED equal, that they are endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable Rights."
Obviously, the Founders believed it to be the TRUTH that all men are CREATED, and said so in this Founding document. Can you refute that?
This country is a product of the Enlightenment, founded on principles of of "natural rights" and the exercise of reason as opposed to the appeal to authority. Our documents reads nothing like the Bible . In fact the bible is completely opposite of our foundation
The key Founding Fathers (Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, Paine, even Adams) were most accurately termed deists, who believed in Spinoza's God (that Nature is God), or a vaguely benevolent "Providence". They rejected as absurd the inspired authority of the Bible and the divinity of the man Jesus, called Christ. You know NOTHING of the background, the history of europe, and what they did not want happening here in this new Republic
LOL! There were more than five key Founders, Mr. Paine. But I can see why you'd like to cling to them, as they believe what you believe. BUT, the VAST, VAST MAJORITY of ALL the Founders--and all were important--were Christians. And no, you can't have Adams. Sorry. He wasn't a deist.
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of CHRISTIANITY." -JOHN ADAMS, Christian
Sorry again! The Adams comments are real. And here is the full quote and the source: "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
-The Writings of Thomas Jefferson (Wash. D. C., 1904), Vol. XIII, p. 292-294. In a letter from J. Adams to T. Jefferson on 6/28/1813.
"There is no authority, civil or religious there can be no legitimate government but what is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, or in more orthodox words damnation." -Letter from John Adams to Benjamin Rush, Quincy, Mass.,December 21, 1809
"Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company: I mean hell." -Letter to Thomas Jefferson on April 19, 1817
"what is administered by this "Holy Ghost." LMAO! NOWHERE, ever, did Adams speak like that! No where! Send me a freaking link to you source! If you got it from wallbuilders.....do not bother though. And your last quote IS a quote mine.....taken from a larger body of text, and is not at all what Barton revisionists WANT it to read. Sneaky sneaky sneaky ...
Wallbuilders owns the original letter. Somehow that makes it invalid? LOL!!!!!
Letter from John Adams to Benjamin Rush, from Quincy, Massachusetts, dated December 21, 1809, from the original in our possession.
If you think the second quote about hell is out of context, post the context and prove it wrong. I mean, all you've done is complain and accuse, but WITHOUT SUBSTANCE.
(sigh) I was temped to write Wallbuilders and ask for a photocopy of the letter, but hey, you're not interested in truth. If you want to do it, you do it. Lying isn't a Christian trait, so I have no reason to doubt David Barton. But all you have to do is ASK and they'll probably send you the photocopy. That's if you're REALLY interested in TRUE history, that is. But I'm not getting that impression. I can never convince a closed mind, which is not very "enlightened" of you!
By the way, Mr. Paine, you're backpedaling. You said regarding the Founders, "They were quite the mixture. Most were deists."
Now you're trying to push FIVE to the forefront. Is that your "most"? Ha! Like I said, what you said is an absolute LIE. A lie that you have chosen to believe, but that most know is bunk. But you have every right to remain in ignorance. It's an American privilege.
I can back it up by asking you to PROVE what you claim. Don't say that "most" of the Founders were deists and then get upset at me for asking you to prove it.
The best way to shut me up is to simply supply your long list of deists.
I would be more than happy to do that, IF......YOU will first let me know that YOU know what a "deist" IS. It is ridiculous to try to argue something when the opponent knows very little about the subject. WHAT is a deist? What is your definition or understanding of "Freedom of religion"? The Constitution guarantees that people can believe in ANY god or gods they choose. How in the hell does that square with the Bible's 1st commandment?
Sure, the basic definition of a deist in the 18th CENTURY is one who believes in God as a Creator, but as One who does not really intervene in the affairs of men. It's not a perfect definition, but it embodies most of the basic belief.
No matter what definition you choose for a deist, you will never come up with "most" of the Founders being that. You are simply wrong and trying to push an imaginary history on the rest of us.
Since our LAWS are what matter, would a SUPREME COURT RULING count?
"Our LAWS and our institutions MUST necessarily BE BASED UPON and EMBODY THE TEACHINGS of the REDEEMER of mankind [That's JESUS, by the way]. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE THAT IT SHOULD BE OTHERWISE; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are EMPHATICALLY CHRISTIAN... This is a RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. This is HISTORICALLY TRUE..." (emphasis mine)-Richmond v. Moore, Illinois Supreme Court,1883
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."
James Madison. 4th US president in a letter to William Bradford, January 1774.
Your second comments reveals there is a debate concerning Calvinism regarding this statement.
Religion vs Christianity... 2 different things.
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." -Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782)
In no instance have churches been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for everyone noble enterprise'-James Madison
You notice the thumbs down on my quoting Jefferson and Madison? It does no good to ask the "christian nation" nutters to check out "LIARS FOR JESUS" website wherein it shows what a dispicable outfit this Wallbuilders is.
".... Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Goverment will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together;--
Nope, close to 90% or more of our founding fathers were born again Christians. The first bible printed in English in the new United States was printed by Congress for crying out loud.
The Bible is the total antithisis of our Constitution! The Bible supports rape, incest, slavery, the subjugation of women, and the stoning of children. Most of the founding fathers were DEISTS.
Congress NEVER printed any bibles, NEVER. This is a another Barton lie and for the sake of your integrity, you should be skeptical of "facts" from Barton.
Dude, are you serious, there are still original copies of it, I've seen one with my own eyes. Just because you don't want it to be true, don't try to erase history.
I never said there were NO early printed bibles. I said CONGRESS NEVER printed any bibles. This is a lie initiated by Barton and Wallbuilders and spread ignorantly. When christians spread such lies when they are informed, they violate their own integrity and that of their religion (not to mention the ninth commandment).
I'll spell it out for you, I have seen a bible with my own eyes that says it was printed by the Congress of these United States of America. I've heard that it was the first English translation printed after the Revolution. I don't know if that's true, but to say that Congress didn't print them is an outright lie.
Please research Aitken bible ... this was a private venture. Aitken was in debt - as the war ended, his bibles were not competitive in price or quality to British bibles. Aitken wrote several letters to Congress seeking favor for his efforts - all were denied. Aitken exaggerated the role of Congress in these letters - Barton sometimes then quotes Aitken's distortions and presents them to his audience as fact. It really doesn't matter was is said or printed - it matters what happened.
To say that Wallbuilders is distorting facts in incredible. They have the ORIGINAL documents to support many of their statements! Thanks for being a patriot 1776iscoming!
Jan 21, 1781, Robert Aitken petitioned the US Congress to authorize, & if possible even fund, the printing of a complete Bible in the English language of the King James Version. Sept 10, 1782, Aitken rec'd authorization from the United States Congress to commence his American printing of the Bible in English. This is the only instance in history of the U.S. Congress authorizing the printing of a Bible. In subsequent years, that session was often mockingly referred to as The Bible Congress.
Wrong. They were quite the mixture. Most were deists. And even if you were correct about that, it has nothing to do with the fact that those FF created a SECULAR Constitution. "WE the people...."
Wrong. MOST were NOT deists. That is an absolute lie, and you can't prove what you claim. MOST were Christians. That is a historical fact. Furthermore, it's entirely illogical for a devoutly Christian people to create, or so desire, a secular government void of religious principles and morals. This fact is proven over and over by the statements of the Founders themselves. The ramblings of an unbelieving & ignorant YouTube user in 2009 don't' really amount to much in light of that.
Self-government, exercise of reason, freedom of opinion, natural rights of man. These are the founding principles of our government; they have nothing to do with the Bible or any religion. In some respects (freedom of opinion, for example), they are the antithesis of revealed religion.
Natural rights of man? LOL! Who says? What "rights"? Maybe you'd like to defend that idea with your enlightenment doctrine? Same for "freedom of opinion."
Yes, Thomas Paine wrote a book called "The Rights Of Man" and all the FF (as well as most of the population at that time) hailed Paine , revered him and looked to him for inspiration. There are NO rights of man in the bible. It is ALL about "God's" laws, god's commandments' god's do's and don'ts. There is no freedoms we enjoy because of the Constitution that can be found in the bible. None
LOL! So what did the PILGRIM'S bring over in 1620, the rights of man from the thinking of men like Thomas Paine, or from the Bible? Enlighten all of us, please.
So Paine and Jefferson were at odds according to the Jefferson statement at .05 of this video, right? According to you, our liberties are NOT from God. That's not what Jefferson believed.
Care to defend Mr. Paine against Mr. Jefferson? (Wait! Let me get my popcorn!)
Hello! that alleged quote by Jefferson is just ONE example of David Barton's quote mining, revision, and or false made up "quotes". It is so unlike all the volumes of writing by Jefferson. Wallbuilders witholds TONS of stuff from their faithful followers. HOW DO I KNOW THIS? Because I was a christian for many years, and there was mountains of stuff kept away from us in the christian schools I went to.
Typical ad hominem attack. Are you claiming that Jefferson never said that? Stop trying to divert the attention away from the issue by attacking David Barton. You're only BOLSTERING HIS position.
Now, back to the Jefferson quote. Care to refute it?
Yes, I am saying that Jefferson never said it. And I've not diverting a goddamn thing. IF you (and this IS a wallbuilders video) quote Jefferson and it is false, then I will call it out. It is not diverting. I know all about David Barton and Wallbuilders and their history revision tactics
Not fake at all! Jefferson said it. Here's the source: "Notes on the State of Virginia" (Philadelphia: Matthew Carey, 1794), Query XVIII, pp. 236-237.
I know this doesn't help your cause, but you really should be more concerned about REAL history instead of the one you want based on your belief system.
I thought I'd post more of Jefferson's quote in light of your comments & accusations.
"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever."
"wrath" of God from a deist!! Do YOU tremble at the things he did?
oh yes, and don't forget Cindy Jacobs the prophet. Oh yes, she named herself a prophet herself, gets messages from some spirit, and says she is holy. People, wake up!! this is no different then Tammy and Jim Baker. You are all being mislead and these people are making mucho money off of your backs.
firstclassreno 1 month ago
listen to brannon howse - christian worldview network and hear what a phoney this man is, as well as David Barton. They just make up facts, and then say them like they are real. Stop trying to turn our country into a theocracy. Keep this crap in your false church.
firstclassreno 1 month ago
garbage propaganda
nsdtr01 1 month ago in playlist American History by Wallbuilders
and that one or more of the Clergy of the City be requested to officiate in that service.
Benjamin Franklin
rtd1520 1 year ago
our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments be Human Wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.
I therefore beg leave to move, that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business,
rtd1520 1 year ago 2
And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that "except the Lord build the House they labour in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests;
rtd1520 1 year ago 2
All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a Superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth- that God governs in the affairs of men.
rtd1520 1 year ago 2
In this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when presented to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings? In the beginning of the Contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the divine protection. ”Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered.
rtd1520 1 year ago 2
Saw this guy in person! Awesome speaker!!! LEarned a ton!
5smct 1 year ago 4
google "The New England Primer" "George Washington's Prayer Journal"
islampukeallah 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Stop endorsing David Barton. He is a slick con artist who quote mines the founding fathers; rewrites history , and has been forced to admit many of his quotes are bogus. He KNOWS that his targeted audience is ignorant of the facts regarding American history, and the founding fathers.
PaineLover 1 year ago
Religion is behavioral construct of human evolution. Evolution guided the tendencies for both aggression and cooperation in Homo sapiens. Thus, religion, along with morphological characteristics in humans, evolved. Now, with greater knowledge than in the heyday of faith-based systems, we are closer to REAL the truth than ever. Science has led that search for truth ever since the Enlightenment, but religion has resisted, kicking, screaming, and refusing to progress ever since.
charadester 2 years ago
The nonreligious are growing rapidly (now at 15%) primarily because those like Barton, both a fundamentalist Christian and a conservative political activist, have successfully intertwined religion and politics. The founders knew separation was the best for religion. Not only does Barton lie and distort, he is effectively working against his goal. When you argue half of America is immoral and godless based on politics, that half will associate God with hypocrisy.
TouchOfGreatness 2 years ago
I have no quarrel with morality, and I have no quarrel with religion.. Neither is a term that I am aware of as being an issue in the founding of the country.
I appreciate your understanding the need for separation of church and state. But I don't quite go with the need for religion to have morality.
Thanks for your comment.
bumbul81 2 years ago
Pmiller,
Hope I didn't run you off by bringing up relevant issues of colonial history, including the fact that the Puritans were not into religious liberty at all.
bumbul81 2 years ago
Not at all. I pointed out that the Puritans weren't for religious liberty. But the PILGRIMS were, and they were two different groups. Furthermore, I think the Puritans had good motives, albeit somewhat misguided.
Separation of church and state is important, but separation of religion and morality, which George Washington said were inseparable pillars, from the state was never the intention of any of our Founding fathers from any period.
pmiller1967 2 years ago
I make boo boos too. I should have just ignored that.
2. I think that Anne Hutchinson and Roger Williams (who brought the Baptists to Rhode Island) would have disagreed with your assertion about religious liberty, as well as those others who were bullwhipped for disagreeing with the orthodox preachers.
3. The founders were dealing with a much broader country than Mass. and at a time later than the Puritans.
4. Principles are principles.
bumbul81 2 years ago 2
Well, Roger & Anne did not come out of Plymouth, and the religious freedom doctrine, which the Pilgrim's loved. The Puritans were not for separation of church and state. Furthermore, Anne H. was most-likely demon possessed. She was very aggressive, and eventually started teaching herself (which is unbiblical), and then shunned authority. Williams was a maverick who had issues, who was ultimately sent away with great remorse and grief; feeling they had to uphold the unity of the colony...
abigailmiller 2 years ago
1. you are wrong = you're wrong. Check your spelling.
2. In Massachusetts, only members of the Congregational churches could vote in civil elections. Catholics were not allowed to do so and were considered deviants.
3. Why else did the evangelical movement get started other than out of disdain for the Anglican orthodoxy in the colonies?
4. The US has always been a X'n realm. But not a X'n government. Check the documents.
bumbul81 2 years ago
1. Sorry, typing too fast. (I obviously know the correct spelling--see my post below your last one). Not sure your motive in pointing that out.
2. Correct. But BEFORE Mass. was Plymouth, where religious liberty abounded. So either you'RE ignorant of colonial history, or you'RE being dishonest. Which is it?
3. There was no Anglican orthodoxy in Mass. or Plymouth. Both were CONGREGATIONALISTS.
4. Our gov't was established on Christian principals, as Adams said. He was there.
pmiller1967 2 years ago 2
David Barton and Wallbuilders own some historical artifacts, but they do not own our history. Several facts against WBuilders:
1) the colonies were established by people who wanted religious domination over others
2) founders were rebelling against religions tyranny in the colonies
3) founders disliked organized Christianity
4) the US was never established as a X'n nation
bumbul81 2 years ago
Sorry, bumbul, but your wrong.
1. Which colonies? Jamestown? Plymouth? Mass. Bay? Which?
2. Founders were rebelling against religious tyranny in ENGLAND
3. MOST founders were Christians, so your claim is illogical (perhaps you'd give us a handful of proofs?)
4. The U.S. most certainly was founded upon the "general principals of Christianity" (John Adams).
pmiller1967 2 years ago
To clarify, Barton and Wallbuilders own approximately 100,000 original books and documents. That's a bit more than "some." They are very hard to refute, so most comments are ad hominem attacks against Barton's person and not his evidence, which is sound.
America's Christian roots are uncomfortable in our 2009 religious melting-pot of America. But they are what they are and we'd do well to go back to them before we are destroyed.
pmiller1967 2 years ago
Does "owning" documents have anything to do with honesty, purpose, and facts? Nothing. He owns them so he can wave these obscure documents in front of people as a matter of rhetoric only. Instead of honesty, they contribute to his dishonesty.
kressink 2 years ago
No to honesty and perhaps purpose, but yes to facts. It sure does give you an edge on those who claim to "know" what the Founders believed by quoting their peers, who also don't know the originals, vs. quoting the Founders themselves. There is no proof that Barton has ever knowingly used the originals dishonestly, so your logic is skewed.
The real truth is that original sources are irrelevant in today's debate. The goal is not true history, but agenda-driven revision.
pmiller1967 2 years ago
I find it ironic that you relegate Barton's 100,000 Founding books and documents to the "obscure," when you probably ardently march to the beat of the modern "Separation of Church and State" minstrels who proclaim their favorite phrase as "Constitutional,"; the said phrase being found in an equally obscure LETTER from Jefferson to a bunch of Baptists.
So tell me how Barton's enormous & RELEVANT library is obscure & that which (is claimed) to defend what you believe isn't?
pmiller1967 2 years ago 4
@pmiller1967 He said it but used different words.
No distinction seems to be more obvious than that between spiritual and temporal matters. Yet whenever they have been made objects of Legislation, they have clashed and contended with each other, till one or the other has gained the supremacy."
[James Madison in a letter to Thomas Jefferson Oct-Nov 1787]
Spiritual and temporal matters are the same as church and state.
jfsfrnd 9 months ago
@pmiller1967 James Madison, Detached Memoranda
ca. 1817W. & M. Q., 3d ser., 3:554--60 1946
''Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history. . .''
Separation between Religion and Govt is the same as separation of church and state.
jfsfrnd 9 months ago
@jfsfrnd The Founders never intended for the INFLUENCE of Christianity to be separated from any part of government. It's completely illogical to infer such an idea when most of the Founders were devout Christians.
Many are "Christian" in name only today, but it wasn't like that in the 1700s. If they were a Christian they lived like it, for the most part. One must be careful not to apply today's Christianity to 1700s Christianity.
pmiller1967 9 months ago 2
Worth watching, Youtube video: America's Heritage is NOT Christian: TRUE or FALSE
Resurrect the historical TRUTH! Stand UP, WE THE PEOPLE!
TheRationalthinker 2 years ago
False! American's heritage is most certainly Christian. And anyone who denies it is entirely ignorant of our history from 1620 onward.
God, Christianity, Jesus, etc. are all over American history, and it's incredible that people who only choose to look through 21st century glasses are the only ones who deny it. So live on in ignorance! But the facts go against them no matter how much they rant, cry, and spout their "secular America" worldview.
pmiller1967 2 years ago
"God, Christianity, Jesus, etc. are all over American history"
What matters is our CONSTITUTION, our LAWS. Please name one single document that has the name of your god Jesus Christ on it? Name ONE single law that is based on christian law. You are the ignorant one.
PaineLover 2 years ago
Name the FOUNDATION of American law. Do you know?
Does the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE count? "We hold these TRUTHS to be self-evident, that all men are CREATED equal, that they are endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable Rights."
Obviously, the Founders believed it to be the TRUTH that all men are CREATED, and said so in this Founding document. Can you refute that?
pmiller1967 2 years ago
This country is a product of the Enlightenment, founded on principles of of "natural rights" and the exercise of reason as opposed to the appeal to authority. Our documents reads nothing like the Bible . In fact the bible is completely opposite of our foundation
PaineLover 2 years ago
The key Founding Fathers (Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, Paine, even Adams) were most accurately termed deists, who believed in Spinoza's God (that Nature is God), or a vaguely benevolent "Providence". They rejected as absurd the inspired authority of the Bible and the divinity of the man Jesus, called Christ. You know NOTHING of the background, the history of europe, and what they did not want happening here in this new Republic
PaineLover 2 years ago
LOL! There were more than five key Founders, Mr. Paine. But I can see why you'd like to cling to them, as they believe what you believe. BUT, the VAST, VAST MAJORITY of ALL the Founders--and all were important--were Christians. And no, you can't have Adams. Sorry. He wasn't a deist.
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of CHRISTIANITY." -JOHN ADAMS, Christian
pmiller1967 2 years ago
THIS IS A FAKE quote:
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of CHRISTIANITY."
IT IS THE OPPOSITE of what Adams said at The Treaty at Tripoli ! Look it up!
PaineLover 2 years ago
Sorry again! The Adams comments are real. And here is the full quote and the source: "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
-The Writings of Thomas Jefferson (Wash. D. C., 1904), Vol. XIII, p. 292-294. In a letter from J. Adams to T. Jefferson on 6/28/1813.
pmiller1967 2 years ago
More verified Adams...
"There is no authority, civil or religious there can be no legitimate government but what is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, or in more orthodox words damnation." -Letter from John Adams to Benjamin Rush, Quincy, Mass.,December 21, 1809
"Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company: I mean hell." -Letter to Thomas Jefferson on April 19, 1817
pmiller1967 2 years ago 2
"what is administered by this "Holy Ghost." LMAO! NOWHERE, ever, did Adams speak like that! No where! Send me a freaking link to you source! If you got it from wallbuilders.....do not bother though. And your last quote IS a quote mine.....taken from a larger body of text, and is not at all what Barton revisionists WANT it to read. Sneaky sneaky sneaky ...
PaineLover 2 years ago
Wallbuilders owns the original letter. Somehow that makes it invalid? LOL!!!!!
Letter from John Adams to Benjamin Rush, from Quincy, Massachusetts, dated December 21, 1809, from the original in our possession.
If you think the second quote about hell is out of context, post the context and prove it wrong. I mean, all you've done is complain and accuse, but WITHOUT SUBSTANCE.
We are all waiting...
pmiller1967 2 years ago
(sigh) I was temped to write Wallbuilders and ask for a photocopy of the letter, but hey, you're not interested in truth. If you want to do it, you do it. Lying isn't a Christian trait, so I have no reason to doubt David Barton. But all you have to do is ASK and they'll probably send you the photocopy. That's if you're REALLY interested in TRUE history, that is. But I'm not getting that impression. I can never convince a closed mind, which is not very "enlightened" of you!
pmiller1967 2 years ago
By the way, Mr. Paine, you're backpedaling. You said regarding the Founders, "They were quite the mixture. Most were deists."
Now you're trying to push FIVE to the forefront. Is that your "most"? Ha! Like I said, what you said is an absolute LIE. A lie that you have chosen to believe, but that most know is bunk. But you have every right to remain in ignorance. It's an American privilege.
pmiller1967 2 years ago
What am I "backpedaling " from? And do not call me a liar if you cannot back it up!
PaineLover 2 years ago
I can back it up by asking you to PROVE what you claim. Don't say that "most" of the Founders were deists and then get upset at me for asking you to prove it.
The best way to shut me up is to simply supply your long list of deists.
pmiller1967 2 years ago
I would be more than happy to do that, IF......YOU will first let me know that YOU know what a "deist" IS. It is ridiculous to try to argue something when the opponent knows very little about the subject. WHAT is a deist? What is your definition or understanding of "Freedom of religion"? The Constitution guarantees that people can believe in ANY god or gods they choose. How in the hell does that square with the Bible's 1st commandment?
PaineLover 2 years ago
Sure, the basic definition of a deist in the 18th CENTURY is one who believes in God as a Creator, but as One who does not really intervene in the affairs of men. It's not a perfect definition, but it embodies most of the basic belief.
No matter what definition you choose for a deist, you will never come up with "most" of the Founders being that. You are simply wrong and trying to push an imaginary history on the rest of us.
pmiller1967 2 years ago
Since our LAWS are what matter, would a SUPREME COURT RULING count?
"Our LAWS and our institutions MUST necessarily BE BASED UPON and EMBODY THE TEACHINGS of the REDEEMER of mankind [That's JESUS, by the way]. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE THAT IT SHOULD BE OTHERWISE; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are EMPHATICALLY CHRISTIAN... This is a RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. This is HISTORICALLY TRUE..." (emphasis mine)-Richmond v. Moore, Illinois Supreme Court,1883
Any questions?
pmiller1967 2 years ago
Religions are all alike, founded on fables and mythology'=Thomas Jefferson
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man." Thomas Jefferson
PaineLover 2 years ago
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."
James Madison. 4th US president in a letter to William Bradford, January 1774.
Your second comments reveals there is a debate concerning Calvinism regarding this statement.
Religion vs Christianity... 2 different things.
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." -Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782)
JnzWorld 2 years ago
"Religion vs Christianity... 2 different things."
How so? Please state YOUR definition of "Religion". DEFINE religion .
PaineLover 2 years ago
In no instance have churches been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for everyone noble enterprise'-James Madison
PaineLover 2 years ago 3
One of hundreds of passages from our founding fathers warning of religious fanatics like Barton and Green.
TouchOfGreatness 2 years ago 2
You notice the thumbs down on my quoting Jefferson and Madison? It does no good to ask the "christian nation" nutters to check out "LIARS FOR JESUS" website wherein it shows what a dispicable outfit this Wallbuilders is.
PaineLover 2 years ago
BE on guard about these liars, people!
Wallbuilders is lying to you!!!
bumbul81 2 years ago 2
State your case with facts.
JnzWorld 2 years ago
Show me where it says "separation of church and state" in the U.S. Constitution or the Declaration of Independance?
sabliko1 3 years ago 2
We know EXACTLY what the phrase 'separation of church and state' means and exactly where it comes from.
DO YOU?
FreeAgain2 3 years ago 2
yeah it comes from a letter written in 1802.. by Thomas Jefferson...
jordan17bliss 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Don't these people know about SEPARATION of church and state? Freeddom of religion means just that, which includes all religion or lack of.
limpnail 3 years ago
"And can the liberties of a nation
be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction
in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God?"
Thomas Jefferson
FreeAgain2 3 years ago
".... Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Goverment will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together;--
- President James Madison 1822
PaineLover 2 years ago 2
Nope, close to 90% or more of our founding fathers were born again Christians. The first bible printed in English in the new United States was printed by Congress for crying out loud.
1776iscoming 2 years ago
The Bible is the total antithisis of our Constitution! The Bible supports rape, incest, slavery, the subjugation of women, and the stoning of children. Most of the founding fathers were DEISTS.
PaineLover 2 years ago 2
Congress NEVER printed any bibles, NEVER. This is a another Barton lie and for the sake of your integrity, you should be skeptical of "facts" from Barton.
kressink 2 years ago
Dude, are you serious, there are still original copies of it, I've seen one with my own eyes. Just because you don't want it to be true, don't try to erase history.
1776iscoming 2 years ago
I never said there were NO early printed bibles. I said CONGRESS NEVER printed any bibles. This is a lie initiated by Barton and Wallbuilders and spread ignorantly. When christians spread such lies when they are informed, they violate their own integrity and that of their religion (not to mention the ninth commandment).
kressink 2 years ago
I'll spell it out for you, I have seen a bible with my own eyes that says it was printed by the Congress of these United States of America. I've heard that it was the first English translation printed after the Revolution. I don't know if that's true, but to say that Congress didn't print them is an outright lie.
1776iscoming 2 years ago
Please research Aitken bible ... this was a private venture. Aitken was in debt - as the war ended, his bibles were not competitive in price or quality to British bibles. Aitken wrote several letters to Congress seeking favor for his efforts - all were denied. Aitken exaggerated the role of Congress in these letters - Barton sometimes then quotes Aitken's distortions and presents them to his audience as fact. It really doesn't matter was is said or printed - it matters what happened.
kressink 2 years ago
Distorts?
JnzWorld 2 years ago
To say that Wallbuilders is distorting facts in incredible. They have the ORIGINAL documents to support many of their statements! Thanks for being a patriot 1776iscoming!
sabliko1 2 years ago
Jan 21, 1781, Robert Aitken petitioned the US Congress to authorize, & if possible even fund, the printing of a complete Bible in the English language of the King James Version. Sept 10, 1782, Aitken rec'd authorization from the United States Congress to commence his American printing of the Bible in English. This is the only instance in history of the U.S. Congress authorizing the printing of a Bible. In subsequent years, that session was often mockingly referred to as The Bible Congress.
JnzWorld 2 years ago
I'd say it was closer to 95% of our founding fathers were born again Christians.
sabliko1 2 years ago
Wrong. They were quite the mixture. Most were deists. And even if you were correct about that, it has nothing to do with the fact that those FF created a SECULAR Constitution. "WE the people...."
PaineLover 2 years ago
Wrong. MOST were NOT deists. That is an absolute lie, and you can't prove what you claim. MOST were Christians. That is a historical fact. Furthermore, it's entirely illogical for a devoutly Christian people to create, or so desire, a secular government void of religious principles and morals. This fact is proven over and over by the statements of the Founders themselves. The ramblings of an unbelieving & ignorant YouTube user in 2009 don't' really amount to much in light of that.
pmiller1967 2 years ago
Self-government, exercise of reason, freedom of opinion, natural rights of man. These are the founding principles of our government; they have nothing to do with the Bible or any religion. In some respects (freedom of opinion, for example), they are the antithesis of revealed religion.
PaineLover 2 years ago
Natural rights of man? LOL! Who says? What "rights"? Maybe you'd like to defend that idea with your enlightenment doctrine? Same for "freedom of opinion."
pmiller1967 2 years ago
Yes, Thomas Paine wrote a book called "The Rights Of Man" and all the FF (as well as most of the population at that time) hailed Paine , revered him and looked to him for inspiration. There are NO rights of man in the bible. It is ALL about "God's" laws, god's commandments' god's do's and don'ts. There is no freedoms we enjoy because of the Constitution that can be found in the bible. None
PaineLover 2 years ago
LOL! So what did the PILGRIM'S bring over in 1620, the rights of man from the thinking of men like Thomas Paine, or from the Bible? Enlighten all of us, please.
pmiller1967 2 years ago
So Paine and Jefferson were at odds according to the Jefferson statement at .05 of this video, right? According to you, our liberties are NOT from God. That's not what Jefferson believed.
Care to defend Mr. Paine against Mr. Jefferson? (Wait! Let me get my popcorn!)
pmiller1967 2 years ago
Hello! that alleged quote by Jefferson is just ONE example of David Barton's quote mining, revision, and or false made up "quotes". It is so unlike all the volumes of writing by Jefferson. Wallbuilders witholds TONS of stuff from their faithful followers. HOW DO I KNOW THIS? Because I was a christian for many years, and there was mountains of stuff kept away from us in the christian schools I went to.
PaineLover 2 years ago
Typical ad hominem attack. Are you claiming that Jefferson never said that? Stop trying to divert the attention away from the issue by attacking David Barton. You're only BOLSTERING HIS position.
Now, back to the Jefferson quote. Care to refute it?
pmiller1967 2 years ago
Yes, I am saying that Jefferson never said it. And I've not diverting a goddamn thing. IF you (and this IS a wallbuilders video) quote Jefferson and it is false, then I will call it out. It is not diverting. I know all about David Barton and Wallbuilders and their history revision tactics
PaineLover 2 years ago
Not fake at all! Jefferson said it. Here's the source: "Notes on the State of Virginia" (Philadelphia: Matthew Carey, 1794), Query XVIII, pp. 236-237.
I know this doesn't help your cause, but you really should be more concerned about REAL history instead of the one you want based on your belief system.
pmiller1967 2 years ago
I thought I'd post more of Jefferson's quote in light of your comments & accusations.
"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever."
"wrath" of God from a deist!! Do YOU tremble at the things he did?
pmiller1967 2 years ago