Thanks for sharing the truth finally. I felt deceived by the Mormon church when I finally discovered that they had been lying to me as a child. How can any truly honest leaders of the church continue to indocrinate children after investigating the evidence from the Book of Abraham. It's completely dishonest.
He didn't translate anything. This is absolutely correct. He used the peep stone and he also had a Jupiter Talisman which is a amulet used in witchcraft. The church is said to have his peep stone. Now. If you really want to see how well he translated things, look at how he "translated" the book of Abraham from the papyri that has nothing to do with Abraham at all. LDS turn the eye to that in embarrassment.
btw, Joseph did not translate the Kinderhook Plates via revelation. He translated them the good old fashioned way. That's why he was fooled. Wow, Jospeh was human and a far better human than the asshole who made this video. Thanks to Brother Joseph we have the pure form of Christianity of the Earth. You don't like it. Go ahead and say I'm wrong that call me names. Your Lord Satan will be very proud of you. But in your heart, however black it may be, knows I'm correct.
Call you names? My black heart? Guys like you are so funny. Your post truly shows the depth of your delusion. I love it. I leave the vids just for people like you. How did he translate the Book of Abraham? It has proven to be a common Egyptian Book of Breathings, or funeral text. It has been re-translated several times with exactly the same results. Joseph Smith's translation was a fraud. Then there is the Greek Psalter that he tried to translate. Again a total fake.
How could he have translated them if it wasn't by revelation? He could barely read English, and plates contained made up symbols that had no relation to any language that ever existed. How would you go about beginning to translate them using traditional methods?
First, he was not uneducated. His father and brother Hyrum were both school teachers. His brother was a principal member of the local school board. While he did not attend school there is strong evidence he was educated. This includes the borrowing of books from local libraries.
Second, it only takes an imagination to translate something that doesn't exist. The plates never existed and the characters were bogus as shown by his "translation" of the Kinderhook plates.
Anyone who has a modicum of critical thinking skills and is willing to look at the history and circumstances surrounding the translation will come to the same conclusion I came to. This is one more case of a petty con man making a living off of dupes. It is still working. People send money to support a bunch of old men in cheap Mr. Mac suits.
Lol. I probably didn't explain my point well. Mormons explain the Kinderhook plates and the book of Abraham by saying that those translations were not done by "Revelation". They were translated by Smith himself, in other words, without God's help, using conventional methods.
But he would have no way of even starting to translate the plates normally, since they were complete gibberish. Hence, another hoax by the con man.
@DejectedPanda, he didn't have godly revelation. He made things up and he had people help him. He wasn't a dumb guy. He lacked education but wasn't stupid. He knew how to use people. Please study how he translated the book of Abraham. If anything, that is clear evidence of how didn't translate anything. Also there is no such thing as "reformed egytian".
Does this prove that the Book of Mormon is a fake! No. It just proves that God uses peep stones and hats to reveal his mysteries as well as ancient scripture from the Americas. So what? Moses used a gourd and and sackcloth to receive revelation.
You are a servant of Satan because you deny miracles. I curse you deceiver of God's children. You will bow down before Christ and that your evil words will be stricken from the Book of Life.
the most important rule of pulling off a lie: commit.
if you're going to say you can translate ancient texts and someone sticks an apparently ancient text under your nose, you're not going to say "I can't translate this."
seriously, all the art and movies show Joseph sitting at a table with a scribe, with his finger apparently following the text while he "translated." and yet ALL eyewitness accounts say the plates were never in sigh and he had his face stuck in a hat with a magical stone telling him what to write.
Heard the latest LDS revisionist history? Smith KNEW the plates were hoaxes and all the writings, historical church documents, even Smith's own words in his "History of the Church" are wrong.
Yes, according to History 2.0 Smith knew they were fake & all the translation stories (by his personal secretary) were alas, mistaken. I guess Smith was also a happily married man devoted to one wife.
Wow! Talk about throwing something against a wall to see if it may stick! I would like to read the "historical church document" which states your absured claim.
What's not mentioned is that all of the scribes attest to the authenticity of the Book of Mormon and that the book is the work and word of God. They also testified that the whole translation was done without any other book, bible, script, etc. in the room. Where was the translation coming from? Stories? Memory? Yea, right!
I got a better idea. Instead of relying on disputed and highly dubious signatures of scribes (lol) ask any non-Mormon archaeologs, biologist, linguist, historian or anthropologist THEIR view of the BOM and see what they say.
Arch. began in Central and South America less than 200 yrs. ago. And although only about 1% of sites in Central and South America have been discovered and studied there is a lot of information that supports the BOM. Can you show me where they have excavated the names of Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Moses, or Adam? Does it mean they did not exist?
cbritton - What are you babbling about? -Arch began less than 200 yr ago - Less than 1% of sites have been discovered - This is what you hear by those ignorant of archaeolgy and history. They spit out these blatant lies & think people will read and go, "Wow, I'm convinced now."
FOR THE RECORD - universities, museums & privately-financed groups have conducted thousands of surveys for over 200 years. Stop humiliating yourself with this nonsense and read something besides the BOM. .
I was a serious LDS investigator for about 2 yrs. I invited an LDS Bishop to travel CA with my family & me (at our expense!), with the intention of visiting some of the sites he told me gave credence to BoM.
When I informed him that we would be meeting with archaeological & anthropological experts, as well as CA Gov't Ministry of Antiquities experts, his focus shifted from matters of evidence to matters of"faith", then to suspicion, and into outright anger & hostility.
The official Mormon Comprehensive History of the Church Vol 1 pages 29 and 129 describe finding the seer stone and its use in translating. David Whitmer in his pamphlet "To All Believers in Christ" also discusses this in detail. Need I go on? 16 pages of the History of the Church (also an official history) are dedicated to the Kinderhook plates. This is all very well documented from Mormon sources.
I never denied that JS used the seer stone during the translation. Oft times he never had the plates in the same room with him while he received the translation. I was posting more to the point of SMB's claims. I have no more problem with JS using the seer stone, and/or the U&T for translation as Jesus used mud to heal the blind. I may not understand the need for the stone or mud but I have no problem with them using them.
Why do the Mormon approved pictures always portray him with the plates and not with his face in a hat? You might not have a problem with occult practices, but the Mormon Church obviously must. It is not discussed in lessons and not shown in pictures. Smith used the same stone and method scrying for buried treasure.
You deem something an occult practice, yet, every messenger came in the name of the LORD. Funny the stone worked just fine without the hat. You wanna make the object the hat, but it wasn't. The stone only worked based on the faith of the holy man. Otherwise it was dark, just like the liahona. cbritton11 is right and so is GohModley. Funny you don't have any videos condemning Moses, cause he used the same sort of stones.
The family was known to own magic parchments, a magic dagger, and other occult items. Lucy Smith read tea leaves. Joseph Smith was a known necromancer and was known to have studied the works of Emmanuel Swedenborg, a well known European occultist. Give me documentation one instance when the seer stone was not used in the hat.
Joseph Smith was a petty con man and pedophile. A holy man? Give me a break, Sparky - nobody who has studied the history can possibly believe that.
What History you talkin bout? The fabricated ones by anti-mormons or the real truth.
joseph was no con, no charlatan, not a pedaphile, nothing of the sort. You revile all you want on this miniscule little thread, but not you, not Missouri, nor anyone will ever change the real truth, that Joseph communed with JVH and Elohim.
I am talking about verified history. The seer stone was discussed in the Comprehensive History of the Church Volume 1 pages 29 and 129.
Joseph Smith had 8 underage "wives" (not legally married to any of them) The youngest two were 14. Age of mensus in the 1840s is documented at age 16+ at that time. Average age of marriage was 19+. Hence it is clearly pedophilia. Con man and charlatan are clearly shown in the transcripts of his "glass looking" trial.
Further evidence of his deceit is given in his trial over the Kirtland Safety Society - "anti-banking" scheme. He was convicted, then jumped bail while waiting for an appeal. Mormons in the area had to pay off officials to keep the peace, but Smith was in Missouri by that time.
Smith was all about Smith, his sexual appetite and greed.
So they paid the state with their blood of their children at Haun's Mill, and the Looted homes by Missourians without any restitution. ok it all seems so clear now.
Let me see. There was an unprovoked attack on the Missouri State militia at Crooked Creek prior to Haun's Mill. There was also a widely publicized declaration of war given by Sidney Rigdon called his Salt Sermon. Then there is the little matter of the murder of 120 people in Utah who happened to be from Missouri. How many people were at Haun's Mill? Don't try to be self-righteous at this point.
Also you need a geography lesson. The bank fraud was committed in Ohio, not Missouri.
@LDSapologist71 Actually my friend, if you study LDS history fully, you will see that Smith had "the saints" survey land in the Independence Missori area that was already lived on. He taught that since that area was to be the New Zion that God was giving it to them and that wherever they put their foot down the land was theirs. He also taught that it was ok to take livestock, land, and other things from the "gentiles" because it was God's will for the Saints to have it.
@LDSapologist71 When the people of the area stood up to him, He built an army and had his special Ninjas the Danites, off anyone that would stand in the way. Their killing was blessed by God because they stood up for him. Young eventually had the same Danites do his bidding here in Utah. The LDS church tries to make it look like they were done so wrong when it was Smith that started these things and put them in a bad position that caused people to war with them and push them out
@LDSapologist71 Yes. The same proof you do. I read Mormon texts. I'm not mormon nor do I hate mormons. However I do look at your texts, History of the Church, Doctrines and Covenants, the BOM, and even the King Follett Discourses to get all my information. Porter Rockwell is highly revered here in Utah, especially in Draper, for some reason. Come to Utah and I'll show you around and well go to BYU and U of U to the Library and I'll show you info there.
@LDSapologist71 Also, please, please, do your research on the papyri that he used to "translate" the Book of Abraham. It's quite odd that every egyptologist on the Planet that isn't mormon will tell you that it has nothing to do with Abraham at all. That is the nail in the coffin for Smitty and his translations.
The Book of Abraham 100% correct? Lets ignore for a minute that the scrolls have been re-translated several times. Once before they were lost and several more times since they have been found and it is a common funeral text.
Abraham 3 4-9 explains that larger planets revolve more slowly. This is absolutely false. Facsimile 2 figure 5 is the sun borrowing light from Kolob. These are just two of the errors in God's instruction to Abraham. Is your God that stupid?
The Dannites and their activities are very well documented in Mormon documents. Brigham Young referred to them as "Avenging Angels." John D. Lee gave a fairly complete outline of their organization while sitting in prison having been scapegoated for the Mountain Meadows Massacre. There is a lot of information on their formation and activities. Mormons keep very good records on everything. The Dannite Manifesto was signed by 88 prominent Mormons, including Hyrum Smith.
@KakkoiGuy1 A small replica of these gold plates can cure anything from cancer to bankruptcy. You're going to see restoration, you're gon-a see miracles in your life. The price? It's free, absolutely free! " FREE' but that promise of Godly miracles comes with a earthly request. 750 of MY followers ARE turning over all worldly goods for the privilege of joining. I invite you to do the same. Before you give me everything, I feel led to ask youto prove God with a $20 offering."
@onstageagain hahahahhaha. That's a good one. :) Hard to believe people will fall for such foolishness. I was praying and talking to God and asked "How can educated people fall for such bogusness when it's obviously not true"... As quick as I could ask God said "There's a difference between being educated and being SPIRITUALLY DECEIVED". And I understood. Spiritual deception can truly supercede intelligence. Which is why many "Professors" at BYU can teach and stand by something so false
LSD71, It's bad enough he used his old white hat and seer stone to assist him in producing a stolen plagiarized book. He was using Jewish Kabbalah as well. He dropped the ball hard with the Abraham papyrus. And wiggle as you guys will we all know the head was wrong and so was everything on that particular papyrus. So, it's end game right there, no claims of other missing papyrus pieces. And If he got everything right why dont you read a J Smith inspired KJ bible?
Be the first in your Stake to own "Reformed Egyptians For Dummies!!" You'll be the envy of your Ward!!
Your "Reformed Egyptian For Dummies" kit includes a new off-gassing hat, your very own set of magic rocks, and a shiny set of electroplated gold tablets!!
You can also check the accuracy of this translation method, because he used it to translate the Pearl of Great Price, and detail the meaning of the stock Egyptian, Pagan funerary texts contained therein.
His head in the hat method didn't work too well there.
You've obviously never attempted to even open the Book of Mormon. It's interesting the same claims are made against Christians by agnostic, athiest, and secular "experts". "God exists? C'mon! Son of God? C'mon! Took away all of our "sins"? C'mon! All these stories derive from antient Greek and Roman mythology! Can't Christians see this? They are duped!" Look at what is....not what isn't.
Never read the Book of Mormon? Read it, studied it and taught it for 40 years, Sparky. Mission to Brazil, Bishoprics, Stake Callings and even a temple officiator in my silly white suit. As far as the rest, I agree with you, but we are discussing the bogus Mormon claims here. I am looking at what is, and Mormonism is a fraud.
A character in 'Reformed Egyptian' (an imaginary language) showed up, and underneath a translation of that character. Like Japanese, one character stands for a word or phrase.
Also, there were two copies created--the first one was created as Joseph had his head in the hat and the copy that was sent to the printer was created from that.
so, where is the original one letter at a time words/verse. the other story is that it was said aloud as words and slowly said and written. this would account for cursive. but somewhere should be single letters. and if single letters, not like chinese/egyptian glyphs with a sentence in a simple mark but as letters as whitmer says.
Mormons can claim that the 3913 changes in the Book of Mormon were original to the shorthand manuscript, as the shorthand manuscript was buried in the foundation of the Kirtland temple, we will never be able to prove them wrong, but they have cast reasonable doubt on their own scriptures.
...A rock in a hat?...smells to me more like "theological malpractice" (sorcery)...pathetic hoe millions are falling for this nonsense but then again the new testament warned us about this in Galations 1:8-9 that MANY would be deceived by satan coming as an "angel of light"...
..another forgery of joseph smith exposed along with the book of abraham...LOOK at this site on your pc: WHY WE LEFT...hear the 700 (and still counting) testimonies of mormons who left the church after discovering things about joseph smith, brigham young and other church founders the church concealed from its members...SEE on MY FAVORITES: "THE LOST BOOK OF ABRAHAM" how scientists busted wide open the joseph smith forgery of the book of abraham (part of mormon scriptures)...
I have heard time and time again from investagors to the LDS church,
that when they come to these anti mormon sites filled with dark negitive energy in contrast to the the light they feel on LDS sites it's testimony to them where truth and error really are.
Thank you for bringing the good folks over to us!
Radical Islamists also have "testimony" as do Buddahists, Janaists, Taoists and Hindus. More Jehovah Witnesses,Seventh Day Adventists and Pentecostals are finding the truth through testimony than Mormons. What does tat tell you? Relying on testimony is an extremely poor way to find the "TRUTH".
i feel in the presence of the gates of hell when on lds sites and feel it powerfully near their buildings, mormonism is satans best trick since islam.
It just occurred to me that Smith must have been breathing a lot of carbon dioxide with his face stuck into the hat. No wonder the writing is so atrocious. "Tight, like unto a dish" - really???
2 Nephi 4:14 "...many of which sayings are written upon mine other plates; for a more history part are written upon mine other plates."
Other plates? like the 116 lost pages he couldn't reproduce... Why not? Let's employ Occam's Razor... he made it up!
He had at least 33. Mormon historian Todd Compton positively identfied 33. 7 of them under age, as young as 14. 11 of them married to living husbands when he maried them. He "shared" them with the husbands. Many of the husbands were unaware that they were sharing. What a profit. Some of the husbands were his closest associates. One called his activities a "dirty nasty affair."
1978 mormons allowed black people into the church. 1978 US Government said that if they dont allow blacks to enter the church the would not be allow tax excemptions. 1978 Church elders called it the Revelation that God gave to allow Blacks in. 2007 CIA agents used water boarding to a head terror leader. The very next day he said Allah to him to tell the CIA everything. Its funny how scare tactics allow God to work instantly. HM can you see where this is going?
Losing the tax exemption is not completely accurate. A religious tax exemption has never been lost for bigotry. I have many extreme examples of hate groups with religious tax exempt status. What was in jeopardy was the exempt status of the Mormon Church owned schools, including BYU. Bob Jones University vs. the IRS was the test case before the Supreme Court at the time. It was determined that an educational institution would lose its tax exemption for bigotry.
There was a second issue at the same time. The South American offices and new temple were being completed in Brazil. Brazil is a true mixing pot and it is difficult to even guess at the racial mix. This was a real problem, because they did not have enough members with verified ancestry to staff the temple. This problem was the subject of a news conference and at least one high profile letter. LeGrand Richards was the point man for interface with the press. I was in Brazil at that time.
@johninves A small replica of these gold plates can cure anything from cancer to bankruptcy. You're going to see restoration, you're gon-a see miracles in your life. The price? It's free, absolutely free! " FREE' but that promise of Godly miracles comes with a earthly request. 750 of MY followers ARE turning over all worldly goods for the privilege of joining. I invite you to do the same. Before you give me everything, I feel led to ask youto prove God with a $20 offering."
In 1823, seventeen-year-old Joseph Smith was told by the angel Moroni that: "God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people." (Joseph Smith History 1:33.)
He had 33 known wives. 7 of them under age, as young as 14 and 11 of them married to living husbands when he maried them. He "shared" them with the husbands. Many of the husbands were unaware that they were sharing.
Needing a restoration, the structure of Apostles and Prophets came from horny Joe's uncle. That is Seeker doctrine. The United Order came from the Shakers - Jesse Gause (a Shaker) set it up. Polygamy and Spiritual Wivery came from the Cochranites.
He wasn't the founder. Mormonism has no relationship to anything at the time of Christ. Your temple ceremony was not restored, but is a copy of 19th century Freemasonry. Your plan of salvation is a rip off of Emmanuel Swedenborg's book Heaven and Hell.
They are the same person. The early Hebrew manuscripts use the same name. The KJV Bible was partly from Greek texts, which used the other name. This has been very well researched. You need to read some authorities on the subject rather than the milk the Mormon Church provides.
Your point is? Did you know that Elijah is the Greek form of the Hebrew name Elias? How come they were both seen in te Kirtland temple when they are both the same person?
Soo... how do you see the physical being of the "Spirit of Prophecy" as recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants? Horny Joe said he saw them both and called them by name.
Ha! that's funny cause I recall that Baptist are the go to people for disaster relief. For all disasters, they provide thousands of showers, millions of meals and bottles of water. Baptist organizations are the govenments best friends when it comes to disasters. Mormons could give a lot more if they wanted to.
If his efforts are for naught, why are you even bothering with him?
If his efforts are for naught, your efforts to oppose his efforts are for naught. If your efforts are for naught, perhaps you should be going out and trying to reactivate some of the 70% of members who are inactive, rather than wasting your time with the evil apostate.
Did the LDS church send much? I've got a video called "All About the MOrmons 21--stealing . . . redone because of facts" it's very well referenced. I've got links to official government documents showing that they stole at least 500 million dollars in charity that was supposed to go to Katrina. I invite you to watch that viddy.
The closest thing to that title is "The True Origin of the Spaulding Theory" which is a pro-Mormon book by Shook, but page 17 has no such quote. I suggest you read some impartial discussions. The book by Vernal Holley is very good. It is available as an e-book on Dale Broadhurst's web site.
Rigdon's honesty: "that I never saw a sentence of the BoM, I never penned a sentence of the BoM, I never knew that there was such a book in existence as the Book of Mormon, until it was presented to me by Parley P. Pratt, in the form that it now is" (Van Wagoner 1994, 133).
Van Wagoner listed a great deal of evidence that Rigdon did know about the BoM. He cites statements by Orson Hyde, Eliza Snow, Adamson Bentley, Alexander Campbell, and Darwin Atwater, as well as newspaper accounts.
Rigdon was called in on a treasure hunting expidition that Smith was heading in 1826, long before their initial meeting. There were eye witnesses to the fact.
Rigdon was accused by Spaulding's widow 12 years before Hurlbut started taking statements. Of course Rigdon woulod deny it. Of course Cowdrey would deny it. They were part of the troika.
Reference please. "Sidney Rigdon did not write it. Mr. Spaulding did not write it." This quote never happened. You are full of shit. There is reliable evidence that Smith Cowdrey and Rigdon knew each other long before they officially met. Cowdrey was a school teacher in the same town and Hyrum Smith was on the school board. Smith and Cowdrey were related.
If you do the simple calculus on the numbers since the 1989 Ensign, your church is going to have negative average growth within just a few short years.
Mormons have gained 2.2 million in the last 7 years . . . reasonable growth, but many sects are growing faster (Presbyterians and Evangelicals, for example)
There are 100 thousand people like me per year that are officially resigning and 15 percent of the people that are baptized are active. You do the math - The growth is a joke - just like the golden plates. It is a sham and a farce.
There are no half truths here, the half truth is the growth you are talking about. I can direct you to Mormon sites that admit that there is no growth.
Rigdon was also named by Spaulding's wife as the person who stole the manuscript long before there was ever any tie to the Book of Mormon. You have evidently never looked at the documentation. Accepting the Mormon Church's whitewashed version of history?
That is not quite true. They lived in the same small town and used the same printer and the same post office. Solomon Spaulding was a trained minister with a Doctor of Divinity and Rigdon was a Campbellite preacher. What are the chances that they DIDN'T KNOW each other? This is all documented facts.
That's one hell of an exaggeration! The last figure given was 12,868,606--however you get nearly 14 million from 12.9 million is well beyond me. Do you have the April Ensign from this year?
I know all about Mormons. Much more than I care to. I would guess I know a hell of a lot more than you do Sparky. There was nothing restored it was a long con that got the con man killed.
Testiphony time. Ohhh Geeee it is twoo. American Indians and Pacific Islanders are Lamanites - sorry, they are Asian. None of the witnesses ever denied their testiphony - sorry, they did. The Book of Mormon was "traslated using the Urim and Thummim, sorry it was an occult seer stone in the crown of a hat. It is all crap. Magik underwear, magik rocks, superstition and occult magik.
lol why argue? what are the chances the mormons got it right? Im saying Zeus could take the mormon god any day of the week anyways. Or that hindu shiva chick shes a badass. better yet thor, hes got a freakin hammer he could take em all.
Have you ever tried writing your own Book of Mormon? Try it sometime. Finish it within 40 days, don't use any computer, internet, or technology at all, and then publish it for the world to critique. Good luck. Who cares how it was done, can you do it yourself?
It depends on what method you use. Plagerizing the work of Solomon Spaulding would not take long at all. Plagerizing sectionsfrom View of the Hebrews as Mormon Church Historian BH Roberts suggested would also not take that long. Needing to make over 3,000 corrections does not sound to me like the original version was all that correct.
It would also be much easier because much of the doctrine in the Book of Mormon is Campbellite. Sydney Rigdon happened to be a Campbellite minister. One of Rigdon's grandsons said he was told that his grandfater had actually written the book over a period of a little over a year.
Smith claimed to have received the plates in 1827 and the book was published in 1830. That is three years by my count.
LOL - why do you tout bullshit? So Joseph, YEARS prior to knowing of Sidney Rigdon's existence, told people about Gold Plates, translated 116 pages that got lost - i'm sure youhave something on that - before ever knowing the man Sidney who had been creating the book Joseph foretold about? LOL. Are you calling Joseph a seer, but not a translator?? That's funny stuff right there man.
You have only read the Mormon white washed history. Oliver Cowdrey was a relative and was in Palmyra 7 years before they met. There is testimony of Cowdrey's boss that Smith hung around the print shop at the time. There are eye witness accounts of Rigdon being in Palmyra with Smith in 1826.
Smith was nothing but a con man. It was necessary to hide the relationships to successfully perpitrate the fraud. Smith was the front man, Rigdon was the brains and Cowdrey was the worker.
LOL, I can't stop laughing, that's hilarious, ..... I do not mind anti-Joseph material, but come on man, this is seriously laughable as an argument and you have to admit, at least with this, that it's pure crap.
I am perfectly capable of documenting everything I said. For starters I suggest you read "who really wrote the Book of Mormon." There is a significant amout of documted research that ties the troika together as early as 1823.
Brandon he is right. I am a 6th generation Mormon. I worked at Deseret Book after my Mission. I have read just about every well researched book on the Church. You are out of your element with these guys. Go and read the 7 volume history of the Church. Read Rough Stone Rolling (you can get it at Deseret Book). Read the Journal of Discourses. You need to study before taking on former members. They know their stuff. I know, I left the Church after my stay at Deseret Book.
I am ever enlightened by your convincing testimony that I am "out of my element" with these guys. You must be right if you're a "6th generation mormon". Anyway who spends this much effort debunking anything is suspect to me, why waste your time? The only reason to fight something so forcefully is if it's a blaring contradiction of your actions - if only half the effort was spend finding your own God as was spent worrying about mormons you might actually learn something about Him.
Brandon I am sorry. They are right. Joseph did not see or translate what he said he did. I wish it was true but it just is not. You will have to do the study your self. Brandon I wish I had better news for you. I tried and tried to find evidence but could not. Joseph was a great religious thinker but he was no Prophet.
Then go ahead and astound us with your own Book of Mormon, like I originally challenged, go for it, don't give a bunch of "so and so said this" bullshit, write one.
And your other 3 comments, list sources, show me the 3,000 corrections, etc... Anyone can claim what they want without sources.
Some of the significant changes can be found at saintsalive dot com slash mormonism slash bomchanges dot htm. A more complete listing can be found at irr dot org slash mit shash changingscrips dot html. You can find pdf of scans of the 1830 version for verification at jhuston dot com slash Documents slash 1830_Book_of_Mormon dot pdf
The only source that one needs is the 1830 edition of the Book of MORmON. There have been books written about the 3900+ changes, though. Entire verses were added after the translation was pronounced correct and the book was taken back by Moroni.
Smith DID translate The Kinderhook Plates, and that is well documented, even by LDS "approved" sources.
Your comments are as fallacious and untrue as your claims on the Y/T Vid:
"The Untold Story of The Death of Joseph Smith", where you emphatically denied that Smith had a smuggled pistol as he was trying to blast his way out of jail.
You tripped over your lies then, just as you are doing now.
it is well attested fact JS did 'translate' partialy some Kinderhook plates and then stopped his translation. for a fuller in depth look at the occult joseph smith and Mormonism see D.M. Quinn,Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, 1987. and Lance Owens,J.S and Kabbalah: the occult Connection. Many pics. worse still is the Abraham Papyrus. see H.M. Marquardt, 1981. available from utah lighthouse ministries.
He wrote that he did in his journal, and this is mirrored in History of the Church, vol. 5, pp. 374--75. That was a collection of quotes from Joseph Smith collected by B. H. Roberts, who was the official church historian and one of the first quorum of the 70.
For 130 years this statement was accepted as unquestionably accurate. Joseph Smith claimed to have seen the Kinderhook Plates, he identified them as ancient artifacts, and translated part of them. However, since 1980 some LDS scholars and apologists have argued that these statements did not originate with Smith, but rather Clayton himself invented them or merely recorded hearsay.
Even B. H. Roberts had to admit that Joseph Smith's statement that "the find was genuine, and that he had translated some of the characters may not have been known at the time to the alleged conspiritors to deceive him..." (History of the Church, Vol. 5, p.379)
The history of Joseph Smith that contains the Kinderhook Plate statement was approved by Brigham Young, who himself was at Joseph Smith's house and saw the plates there. Young even includes a sketch of one of the plates he saw at Joseph's house in his diary (Ashment, p. 2).
Church Historian George A. Smith affirmed in 1858 that there was an accurate system in place so that the recorded history would be "strictly correct." The historians and clerks engaged in the work were "eye and ear witnesses of nearly all the transactions recorded in this history, most of which were reported as they transpired (Edward Ashment, unpublished article on file, Institute for Religious Research, Appendix A, p. 2)
Joseph Smith hired Clayton specifically to record what he did and said, and "beginning in early 1842, William Clayton found himself involved in nearly every important activity of Nauvoo, but especially the private concerns of the prophet. For two and a half years, until Joseph's death in 1844, they were in each other's company almost daily" (Intimate Chronicle: The Journals of William Clayton, George D. Smith, ed., pp. xxii-xxiii).
"I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth." (History of the Church, Vol. 5 page 372)
In a letter written from that city, dated May 2, 1843, Charlotte Haven said that when Joshua Moore "showed them to Joseph, the latter said that the figures or writing on them was similar to that in which the Book of Mormon was written, and if Mr. Moore could leave them, he thought that by the help of revelation he would be able to translate them." (Overland Monthly, Dec. 1890, page 630)
"I have seen 6 brass plates... covered with ancient characters of language containing from 30 to 40 on each side of the plates. Prest J. has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh king of Egypt...." (William Clayton's Journal, May 1, 1843, as cited in Trials of Discipleship — The Story of William Clayton, a Mormon, page 117)
Jethro Tull is a great musician. I have listened to him since my teens. Providing acurate history is not bashing. It is attempting to show a little of the real history of Mormonism. You are too indoctrinated to ever even look at your own, approved materials.
why don't you read those references before you quote them. They both back up what I say. Both give a disclaimer about this seer stone version. In fact the only first hand account says the following (from your reference)
"he translated, with the Urim and Thummim, or as the Nephites would have said, 'interpreters,' the history, or record called 'The Book of Mormon."
My point was that he stuck his head in a hat; this contradicts your position in points 1, 2 and 3. ""Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light. And in the darkness the spiritual light would shine." Ensign September 1977 Anderson, Richard Lloyd, quoting David Whimer (one of the 3 witnesses).
Also, I found a record that said that he was sitting across the table from Martin Harris, with nothing between them. Harris is reported in the Ensign to have seen the plates before anyone other than Joseph was allowed to see them.
I've got an excellent Antimormon source for you Comprehensive History of the Church (By BH Roberts, of the quorum of the 12) Volume 1 page 129--it says that the rock that Joseph Smith used for much of the translation was the one that he used for treasure hunting and was dug up during a treasure hunting expedition with his brother Hyrum.
Also, IMHO, when Harris said, "when finished he would say 'written;' and if correctly written, the sentence would disappear and another appear in its place; but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used" you'd think that a perfect translation like that would not need more than 3900 corrections, eh? Entire verses were added after the first edition.
Harris later clarified his testimony--he used both the rock in the hat (that was used for treasure hunting) and the seer stones were about like spectacles, only larger--this is from an official church magazine--The Millennial Star Volume 44 page 87. Who was right--were they transparent stones set in a breastplate, or were they spectacles?
BH Roberts, who was the official church historian fails to mention any curtain, anywhere in the Comprehensive History of the Church. Was he antiMormon?
B H Roberts wasn't of the Quorum of the 12, though sorry. B H Roberts was of the Quorum of the 70.
Did you know that B H Roberts was denied a senate seat because of his polygamous marriages? One of these marriages took place in the territory of Utah and the other took place in the state of Utah. These both took place after church leadership officially said that no one had been involved in a polygamous marriage since the national government issued an order forbidding it.
Many people saw and reported on the translation process. No one actually ever saw the physical plates. Both Whitmer and Harris later admitted that they saw them in a "visionary" state.
You know the name calling is really quite childish. It is a really poor attempt at ad hominem. Keep it up and you won't be posting here. Read all of the information including the quotes from the Comprehensive History of the Church. It is quite clear how the translation was done.
That sounds really fair! God is going to send me to eternal torture for denying his existence. I don't even believe that Hitler would deserve ETERNAL torture.
Besides, according to Mormonism, only people who apostasized with a full knowledge of everything could be sent to the Mormon equivalent of hell. The worst that I will get if Mormonism is right is the telestial kingdom, which Joseph Smith said was so much better than earth that you would kill yourself now to get here, if you only knew.
Helen Mar Kimball was the daughter of Heber C. Kimball who died in 1868, long after Smith's shootout. If you read Helen's journal there was NO doubt there was sex involved.
The average age of puberty in 1840 according to all of the medical information was 17. He was marrying girls at 14. The average age has declined since 1840. Look it up.
The youngest wife I know of was Helen Mar Kimball at age 14. Nancy Winchester was also 14, but a couple of months older. He propositioned, but did not marry Mary Rollins when she was 12. He did marry her later as a polyandrous husband after she was already married and was Mary Rollins Lightner.
Yes, I agree. Joseph Smith had nothing but a bunch of lies. What a coward, not even willing to look at your own Mormon approved books. Afraid of what you will find.
EVERYONE.. find Professor Criddle's theory on who wrote the BOM... VERY interesting ....
54v115 9 months ago
Thanks for sharing the truth finally. I felt deceived by the Mormon church when I finally discovered that they had been lying to me as a child. How can any truly honest leaders of the church continue to indocrinate children after investigating the evidence from the Book of Abraham. It's completely dishonest.
theoptionator 1 year ago
He didn't translate anything. This is absolutely correct. He used the peep stone and he also had a Jupiter Talisman which is a amulet used in witchcraft. The church is said to have his peep stone. Now. If you really want to see how well he translated things, look at how he "translated" the book of Abraham from the papyri that has nothing to do with Abraham at all. LDS turn the eye to that in embarrassment.
KakkoiGuy1 1 year ago
btw, Joseph did not translate the Kinderhook Plates via revelation. He translated them the good old fashioned way. That's why he was fooled. Wow, Jospeh was human and a far better human than the asshole who made this video. Thanks to Brother Joseph we have the pure form of Christianity of the Earth. You don't like it. Go ahead and say I'm wrong that call me names. Your Lord Satan will be very proud of you. But in your heart, however black it may be, knows I'm correct.
GohModley 2 years ago
Call you names? My black heart? Guys like you are so funny. Your post truly shows the depth of your delusion. I love it. I leave the vids just for people like you. How did he translate the Book of Abraham? It has proven to be a common Egyptian Book of Breathings, or funeral text. It has been re-translated several times with exactly the same results. Joseph Smith's translation was a fraud. Then there is the Greek Psalter that he tried to translate. Again a total fake.
jhuston7 2 years ago
How could he have translated them if it wasn't by revelation? He could barely read English, and plates contained made up symbols that had no relation to any language that ever existed. How would you go about beginning to translate them using traditional methods?
Think, McFly, think!
DejectedPanda 2 years ago
First, he was not uneducated. His father and brother Hyrum were both school teachers. His brother was a principal member of the local school board. While he did not attend school there is strong evidence he was educated. This includes the borrowing of books from local libraries.
Second, it only takes an imagination to translate something that doesn't exist. The plates never existed and the characters were bogus as shown by his "translation" of the Kinderhook plates.
jhuston7 2 years ago
Anyone who has a modicum of critical thinking skills and is willing to look at the history and circumstances surrounding the translation will come to the same conclusion I came to. This is one more case of a petty con man making a living off of dupes. It is still working. People send money to support a bunch of old men in cheap Mr. Mac suits.
jhuston7 2 years ago
Lol. I probably didn't explain my point well. Mormons explain the Kinderhook plates and the book of Abraham by saying that those translations were not done by "Revelation". They were translated by Smith himself, in other words, without God's help, using conventional methods.
But he would have no way of even starting to translate the plates normally, since they were complete gibberish. Hence, another hoax by the con man.
DejectedPanda 2 years ago
@DejectedPanda, he didn't have godly revelation. He made things up and he had people help him. He wasn't a dumb guy. He lacked education but wasn't stupid. He knew how to use people. Please study how he translated the book of Abraham. If anything, that is clear evidence of how didn't translate anything. Also there is no such thing as "reformed egytian".
KakkoiGuy1 1 year ago
Does this prove that the Book of Mormon is a fake! No. It just proves that God uses peep stones and hats to reveal his mysteries as well as ancient scripture from the Americas. So what? Moses used a gourd and and sackcloth to receive revelation.
GohModley 2 years ago
So.. God is a second rate con man using smoke and mirrors? Not my God.
jhuston7 2 years ago
You are a servant of Satan because you deny miracles. I curse you deceiver of God's children. You will bow down before Christ and that your evil words will be stricken from the Book of Life.
GohModley 2 years ago
Ohhh - CURSED!! I am so scared. You and your God have no power. You are just weak worthless wannabes.
jhuston7 2 years ago
what a hoax.
Juandecrosso 2 years ago
the most important rule of pulling off a lie: commit.
if you're going to say you can translate ancient texts and someone sticks an apparently ancient text under your nose, you're not going to say "I can't translate this."
carlasue88 2 years ago 6
seriously, all the art and movies show Joseph sitting at a table with a scribe, with his finger apparently following the text while he "translated." and yet ALL eyewitness accounts say the plates were never in sigh and he had his face stuck in a hat with a magical stone telling him what to write.
carlasue88 2 years ago
hahaha!
qpakis24 2 years ago
Heard the latest LDS revisionist history? Smith KNEW the plates were hoaxes and all the writings, historical church documents, even Smith's own words in his "History of the Church" are wrong.
Yes, according to History 2.0 Smith knew they were fake & all the translation stories (by his personal secretary) were alas, mistaken. I guess Smith was also a happily married man devoted to one wife.
smb12321 2 years ago
Wow! Talk about throwing something against a wall to see if it may stick! I would like to read the "historical church document" which states your absured claim.
What's not mentioned is that all of the scribes attest to the authenticity of the Book of Mormon and that the book is the work and word of God. They also testified that the whole translation was done without any other book, bible, script, etc. in the room. Where was the translation coming from? Stories? Memory? Yea, right!
cbritton11 2 years ago
I got a better idea. Instead of relying on disputed and highly dubious signatures of scribes (lol) ask any non-Mormon archaeologs, biologist, linguist, historian or anthropologist THEIR view of the BOM and see what they say.
smb12321 2 years ago
Arch. began in Central and South America less than 200 yrs. ago. And although only about 1% of sites in Central and South America have been discovered and studied there is a lot of information that supports the BOM. Can you show me where they have excavated the names of Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Moses, or Adam? Does it mean they did not exist?
cbritton11 2 years ago
cbritton - What are you babbling about? -Arch began less than 200 yr ago - Less than 1% of sites have been discovered - This is what you hear by those ignorant of archaeolgy and history. They spit out these blatant lies & think people will read and go, "Wow, I'm convinced now."
FOR THE RECORD - universities, museums & privately-financed groups have conducted thousands of surveys for over 200 years. Stop humiliating yourself with this nonsense and read something besides the BOM. .
smb12321 2 years ago
That's BS, CBritton;
I was a serious LDS investigator for about 2 yrs. I invited an LDS Bishop to travel CA with my family & me (at our expense!), with the intention of visiting some of the sites he told me gave credence to BoM.
When I informed him that we would be meeting with archaeological & anthropological experts, as well as CA Gov't Ministry of Antiquities experts, his focus shifted from matters of evidence to matters of"faith", then to suspicion, and into outright anger & hostility.
Outlaw1257 2 years ago
The official Mormon Comprehensive History of the Church Vol 1 pages 29 and 129 describe finding the seer stone and its use in translating. David Whitmer in his pamphlet "To All Believers in Christ" also discusses this in detail. Need I go on? 16 pages of the History of the Church (also an official history) are dedicated to the Kinderhook plates. This is all very well documented from Mormon sources.
jhuston7 2 years ago
I never denied that JS used the seer stone during the translation. Oft times he never had the plates in the same room with him while he received the translation. I was posting more to the point of SMB's claims. I have no more problem with JS using the seer stone, and/or the U&T for translation as Jesus used mud to heal the blind. I may not understand the need for the stone or mud but I have no problem with them using them.
cbritton11 2 years ago
Why do the Mormon approved pictures always portray him with the plates and not with his face in a hat? You might not have a problem with occult practices, but the Mormon Church obviously must. It is not discussed in lessons and not shown in pictures. Smith used the same stone and method scrying for buried treasure.
jhuston7 2 years ago
@jhuston,
You deem something an occult practice, yet, every messenger came in the name of the LORD. Funny the stone worked just fine without the hat. You wanna make the object the hat, but it wasn't. The stone only worked based on the faith of the holy man. Otherwise it was dark, just like the liahona. cbritton11 is right and so is GohModley. Funny you don't have any videos condemning Moses, cause he used the same sort of stones.
*guffaw*
LDSapologist71 2 years ago
The family was known to own magic parchments, a magic dagger, and other occult items. Lucy Smith read tea leaves. Joseph Smith was a known necromancer and was known to have studied the works of Emmanuel Swedenborg, a well known European occultist. Give me documentation one instance when the seer stone was not used in the hat.
Joseph Smith was a petty con man and pedophile. A holy man? Give me a break, Sparky - nobody who has studied the history can possibly believe that.
jhuston7 2 years ago
What History you talkin bout? The fabricated ones by anti-mormons or the real truth.
joseph was no con, no charlatan, not a pedaphile, nothing of the sort. You revile all you want on this miniscule little thread, but not you, not Missouri, nor anyone will ever change the real truth, that Joseph communed with JVH and Elohim.
LDSapologist71 2 years ago
I am talking about verified history. The seer stone was discussed in the Comprehensive History of the Church Volume 1 pages 29 and 129.
Joseph Smith had 8 underage "wives" (not legally married to any of them) The youngest two were 14. Age of mensus in the 1840s is documented at age 16+ at that time. Average age of marriage was 19+. Hence it is clearly pedophilia. Con man and charlatan are clearly shown in the transcripts of his "glass looking" trial.
jhuston7 2 years ago
Further evidence of his deceit is given in his trial over the Kirtland Safety Society - "anti-banking" scheme. He was convicted, then jumped bail while waiting for an appeal. Mormons in the area had to pay off officials to keep the peace, but Smith was in Missouri by that time.
Smith was all about Smith, his sexual appetite and greed.
jhuston7 2 years ago
So they paid the state with their blood of their children at Haun's Mill, and the Looted homes by Missourians without any restitution. ok it all seems so clear now.
LDSapologist71 2 years ago
Let me see. There was an unprovoked attack on the Missouri State militia at Crooked Creek prior to Haun's Mill. There was also a widely publicized declaration of war given by Sidney Rigdon called his Salt Sermon. Then there is the little matter of the murder of 120 people in Utah who happened to be from Missouri. How many people were at Haun's Mill? Don't try to be self-righteous at this point.
Also you need a geography lesson. The bank fraud was committed in Ohio, not Missouri.
jhuston7 2 years ago
@LDSapologist71 Actually my friend, if you study LDS history fully, you will see that Smith had "the saints" survey land in the Independence Missori area that was already lived on. He taught that since that area was to be the New Zion that God was giving it to them and that wherever they put their foot down the land was theirs. He also taught that it was ok to take livestock, land, and other things from the "gentiles" because it was God's will for the Saints to have it.
KakkoiGuy1 1 year ago
@LDSapologist71 When the people of the area stood up to him, He built an army and had his special Ninjas the Danites, off anyone that would stand in the way. Their killing was blessed by God because they stood up for him. Young eventually had the same Danites do his bidding here in Utah. The LDS church tries to make it look like they were done so wrong when it was Smith that started these things and put them in a bad position that caused people to war with them and push them out
KakkoiGuy1 1 year ago
@KakkoiGuy1
Making up tall tales we see? Ok you have ANY proof to back it up?
lol
LDSapologist71 1 year ago
@LDSapologist71 Yes. The same proof you do. I read Mormon texts. I'm not mormon nor do I hate mormons. However I do look at your texts, History of the Church, Doctrines and Covenants, the BOM, and even the King Follett Discourses to get all my information. Porter Rockwell is highly revered here in Utah, especially in Draper, for some reason. Come to Utah and I'll show you around and well go to BYU and U of U to the Library and I'll show you info there.
KakkoiGuy1 1 year ago
@LDSapologist71 Also, please, please, do your research on the papyri that he used to "translate" the Book of Abraham. It's quite odd that every egyptologist on the Planet that isn't mormon will tell you that it has nothing to do with Abraham at all. That is the nail in the coffin for Smitty and his translations.
KakkoiGuy1 1 year ago
@KakkoiGuy1
not in the slightest. The anti mormon videos are a cover up of the truth, because they use strawman arguements to attempt to undermine it.
the book of Abraham is 100% correct.
LDSapologist71 1 year ago
@LDSapologist71
The Book of Abraham 100% correct? Lets ignore for a minute that the scrolls have been re-translated several times. Once before they were lost and several more times since they have been found and it is a common funeral text.
Abraham 3 4-9 explains that larger planets revolve more slowly. This is absolutely false. Facsimile 2 figure 5 is the sun borrowing light from Kolob. These are just two of the errors in God's instruction to Abraham. Is your God that stupid?
jhuston7 1 year ago
@LDSapologist71
The Dannites and their activities are very well documented in Mormon documents. Brigham Young referred to them as "Avenging Angels." John D. Lee gave a fairly complete outline of their organization while sitting in prison having been scapegoated for the Mountain Meadows Massacre. There is a lot of information on their formation and activities. Mormons keep very good records on everything. The Dannite Manifesto was signed by 88 prominent Mormons, including Hyrum Smith.
jhuston7 1 year ago
@KakkoiGuy1 A small replica of these gold plates can cure anything from cancer to bankruptcy. You're going to see restoration, you're gon-a see miracles in your life. The price? It's free, absolutely free! " FREE' but that promise of Godly miracles comes with a earthly request. 750 of MY followers ARE turning over all worldly goods for the privilege of joining. I invite you to do the same. Before you give me everything, I feel led to ask youto prove God with a $20 offering."
onstageagain 1 year ago
@onstageagain hahahahhaha. That's a good one. :) Hard to believe people will fall for such foolishness. I was praying and talking to God and asked "How can educated people fall for such bogusness when it's obviously not true"... As quick as I could ask God said "There's a difference between being educated and being SPIRITUALLY DECEIVED". And I understood. Spiritual deception can truly supercede intelligence. Which is why many "Professors" at BYU can teach and stand by something so false
KakkoiGuy1 1 year ago
LSD71, It's bad enough he used his old white hat and seer stone to assist him in producing a stolen plagiarized book. He was using Jewish Kabbalah as well. He dropped the ball hard with the Abraham papyrus. And wiggle as you guys will we all know the head was wrong and so was everything on that particular papyrus. So, it's end game right there, no claims of other missing papyrus pieces. And If he got everything right why dont you read a J Smith inspired KJ bible?
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Outlaw1257 3 years ago
Wow Joseph Smith is just as bad a L.Ron Hubbard. Rock in a hat = word of God?! C'mon....
leocivic 3 years ago
You can also check the accuracy of this translation method, because he used it to translate the Pearl of Great Price, and detail the meaning of the stock Egyptian, Pagan funerary texts contained therein.
His head in the hat method didn't work too well there.
grnmessiah 3 years ago
Leocivic;
At least L. Ron Hubbard could write somewhat decent science fiction!!
Outlaw1257 3 years ago
You've obviously never attempted to even open the Book of Mormon. It's interesting the same claims are made against Christians by agnostic, athiest, and secular "experts". "God exists? C'mon! Son of God? C'mon! Took away all of our "sins"? C'mon! All these stories derive from antient Greek and Roman mythology! Can't Christians see this? They are duped!" Look at what is....not what isn't.
cbritton11 2 years ago
Never read the Book of Mormon? Read it, studied it and taught it for 40 years, Sparky. Mission to Brazil, Bishoprics, Stake Callings and even a temple officiator in my silly white suit. As far as the rest, I agree with you, but we are discussing the bogus Mormon claims here. I am looking at what is, and Mormonism is a fraud.
jhuston7 2 years ago
Question: The letters showed up one by one for the BofM. So, WHY ARE THE PAGES TO THE PRINTER IN LONG HAND CURSIVE??
hypnotstcollector 3 years ago
A character in 'Reformed Egyptian' (an imaginary language) showed up, and underneath a translation of that character. Like Japanese, one character stands for a word or phrase.
Also, there were two copies created--the first one was created as Joseph had his head in the hat and the copy that was sent to the printer was created from that.
grnmessiah 3 years ago
so, where is the original one letter at a time words/verse. the other story is that it was said aloud as words and slowly said and written. this would account for cursive. but somewhere should be single letters. and if single letters, not like chinese/egyptian glyphs with a sentence in a simple mark but as letters as whitmer says.
hypnotstcollector 3 years ago
Mormons can claim that the 3913 changes in the Book of Mormon were original to the shorthand manuscript, as the shorthand manuscript was buried in the foundation of the Kirtland temple, we will never be able to prove them wrong, but they have cast reasonable doubt on their own scriptures.
grnmessiah 3 years ago
The comments are more interesting than the film.
suckfist 3 years ago
...A rock in a hat?...smells to me more like "theological malpractice" (sorcery)...pathetic hoe millions are falling for this nonsense but then again the new testament warned us about this in Galations 1:8-9 that MANY would be deceived by satan coming as an "angel of light"...
dimtry19 3 years ago
..another forgery of joseph smith exposed along with the book of abraham...LOOK at this site on your pc: WHY WE LEFT...hear the 700 (and still counting) testimonies of mormons who left the church after discovering things about joseph smith, brigham young and other church founders the church concealed from its members...SEE on MY FAVORITES: "THE LOST BOOK OF ABRAHAM" how scientists busted wide open the joseph smith forgery of the book of abraham (part of mormon scriptures)...
dimtry19 3 years ago
to critics:
I have heard time and time again from investagors to the LDS church,
that when they come to these anti mormon sites filled with dark negitive energy in contrast to the the light they feel on LDS sites it's testimony to them where truth and error really are.
Thank you for bringing the good folks over to us!
skyaglow 3 years ago
Radical Islamists also have "testimony" as do Buddahists, Janaists, Taoists and Hindus. More Jehovah Witnesses,Seventh Day Adventists and Pentecostals are finding the truth through testimony than Mormons. What does tat tell you? Relying on testimony is an extremely poor way to find the "TRUTH".
jhuston7 3 years ago
i feel in the presence of the gates of hell when on lds sites and feel it powerfully near their buildings, mormonism is satans best trick since islam.
Gutcheckcoming 3 years ago
lol he was given scribbles and claimed to "translate" it. Just like the "reformed Egyptian" funeral scroll that he "translated" completely wrong.
mystynight 3 years ago
It just occurred to me that Smith must have been breathing a lot of carbon dioxide with his face stuck into the hat. No wonder the writing is so atrocious. "Tight, like unto a dish" - really???
2 Nephi 4:14 "...many of which sayings are written upon mine other plates; for a more history part are written upon mine other plates."
Other plates? like the 116 lost pages he couldn't reproduce... Why not? Let's employ Occam's Razor... he made it up!
Trillidotia 3 years ago
i'm mormon, thats true, i don't care. he did have 33 wives though!
garrettanderson983 4 years ago
He had at least 33. Mormon historian Todd Compton positively identfied 33. 7 of them under age, as young as 14. 11 of them married to living husbands when he maried them. He "shared" them with the husbands. Many of the husbands were unaware that they were sharing. What a profit. Some of the husbands were his closest associates. One called his activities a "dirty nasty affair."
jhuston7 4 years ago
1978 mormons allowed black people into the church. 1978 US Government said that if they dont allow blacks to enter the church the would not be allow tax excemptions. 1978 Church elders called it the Revelation that God gave to allow Blacks in. 2007 CIA agents used water boarding to a head terror leader. The very next day he said Allah to him to tell the CIA everything. Its funny how scare tactics allow God to work instantly. HM can you see where this is going?
redheadguy20 4 years ago
Losing the tax exemption is not completely accurate. A religious tax exemption has never been lost for bigotry. I have many extreme examples of hate groups with religious tax exempt status. What was in jeopardy was the exempt status of the Mormon Church owned schools, including BYU. Bob Jones University vs. the IRS was the test case before the Supreme Court at the time. It was determined that an educational institution would lose its tax exemption for bigotry.
jhuston7 4 years ago
There was a second issue at the same time. The South American offices and new temple were being completed in Brazil. Brazil is a true mixing pot and it is difficult to even guess at the racial mix. This was a real problem, because they did not have enough members with verified ancestry to staff the temple. This problem was the subject of a news conference and at least one high profile letter. LeGrand Richards was the point man for interface with the press. I was in Brazil at that time.
jhuston7 4 years ago
Joseph Smith was a lying conman. He lied about everything that had to do with mormonism.
I laugh every sunday when I think how many millions of fools are praying within the walls of a church started on lies by a con man.
johninves 4 years ago 5
@johninves A small replica of these gold plates can cure anything from cancer to bankruptcy. You're going to see restoration, you're gon-a see miracles in your life. The price? It's free, absolutely free! " FREE' but that promise of Godly miracles comes with a earthly request. 750 of MY followers ARE turning over all worldly goods for the privilege of joining. I invite you to do the same. Before you give me everything, I feel led to ask youto prove God with a $20 offering."
onstageagain 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
In 1823, seventeen-year-old Joseph Smith was told by the angel Moroni that: "God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people." (Joseph Smith History 1:33.)
CatholicsRantiGods 4 years ago
He also told one account that placed his first vision about an year later.
grnmessiah 4 years ago
lol why do you call him horny joe? just wondering.
robisnum1 4 years ago
He had 33 known wives. 7 of them under age, as young as 14 and 11 of them married to living husbands when he maried them. He "shared" them with the husbands. Many of the husbands were unaware that they were sharing.
jhuston7 4 years ago
damn, gotta give em props for gettin him some though no?
robisnum1 4 years ago
Needing a restoration, the structure of Apostles and Prophets came from horny Joe's uncle. That is Seeker doctrine. The United Order came from the Shakers - Jesse Gause (a Shaker) set it up. Polygamy and Spiritual Wivery came from the Cochranites.
jhuston7 4 years ago
He wasn't the founder. Mormonism has no relationship to anything at the time of Christ. Your temple ceremony was not restored, but is a copy of 19th century Freemasonry. Your plan of salvation is a rip off of Emmanuel Swedenborg's book Heaven and Hell.
jhuston7 4 years ago
They are the same person. The early Hebrew manuscripts use the same name. The KJV Bible was partly from Greek texts, which used the other name. This has been very well researched. You need to read some authorities on the subject rather than the milk the Mormon Church provides.
jhuston7 4 years ago
Your point is? Did you know that Elijah is the Greek form of the Hebrew name Elias? How come they were both seen in te Kirtland temple when they are both the same person?
jhuston7 4 years ago
The MORmON answer is that the 'Spirit of Elijah' is the Spirit of Prophecy--it was just a random prophet.
grnmessiah 4 years ago
Soo... how do you see the physical being of the "Spirit of Prophecy" as recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants? Horny Joe said he saw them both and called them by name.
jhuston7 4 years ago
It was just someone with the spirit of Elijah--it was just some random prophet. It's in the comment on my video about Elijah and Elias.
grnmessiah 4 years ago
Oliver Cowdry left the church a few months after for unknown reasons.
CompleteConservative 4 years ago
Ha! that's funny cause I recall that Baptist are the go to people for disaster relief. For all disasters, they provide thousands of showers, millions of meals and bottles of water. Baptist organizations are the govenments best friends when it comes to disasters. Mormons could give a lot more if they wanted to.
CompleteConservative 4 years ago
By the way, Methodists (a sect that is much smaller financially) sent a lot more money to help with either the tsunami or Katrina.
grnmessiah 4 years ago
If his efforts are for naught, why are you even bothering with him?
If his efforts are for naught, your efforts to oppose his efforts are for naught. If your efforts are for naught, perhaps you should be going out and trying to reactivate some of the 70% of members who are inactive, rather than wasting your time with the evil apostate.
grnmessiah 4 years ago
Did the LDS church send much? I've got a video called "All About the MOrmons 21--stealing . . . redone because of facts" it's very well referenced. I've got links to official government documents showing that they stole at least 500 million dollars in charity that was supposed to go to Katrina. I invite you to watch that viddy.
grnmessiah 4 years ago
Sorry I meant the tsunami.
grnmessiah 4 years ago
Joseph Smith couldn't have been reading something from behind the curtain or out of the hat?
grnmessiah 4 years ago
Early missionaries were expected to sell the book to help supplement their missions:
On the 26th of March, 1830, the Book of Mormon is first advertised for sale. Mormon Hierarchy, op. cit., pg. 615.
You can see actual transactions on Dale Broadhurst's web site.
jhuston7 4 years ago
The closest thing to that title is "The True Origin of the Spaulding Theory" which is a pro-Mormon book by Shook, but page 17 has no such quote. I suggest you read some impartial discussions. The book by Vernal Holley is very good. It is available as an e-book on Dale Broadhurst's web site.
jhuston7 4 years ago
Rigdon's honesty: "that I never saw a sentence of the BoM, I never penned a sentence of the BoM, I never knew that there was such a book in existence as the Book of Mormon, until it was presented to me by Parley P. Pratt, in the form that it now is" (Van Wagoner 1994, 133).
Van Wagoner listed a great deal of evidence that Rigdon did know about the BoM. He cites statements by Orson Hyde, Eliza Snow, Adamson Bentley, Alexander Campbell, and Darwin Atwater, as well as newspaper accounts.
jhuston7 4 years ago
Rigdon was called in on a treasure hunting expidition that Smith was heading in 1826, long before their initial meeting. There were eye witnesses to the fact.
jhuston7 4 years ago
How about a quote from someone who wasn't a relative or stood to profit from the book?
jhuston7 4 years ago
Rigdon was accused by Spaulding's widow 12 years before Hurlbut started taking statements. Of course Rigdon woulod deny it. Of course Cowdrey would deny it. They were part of the troika.
jhuston7 4 years ago
Reference please. "Sidney Rigdon did not write it. Mr. Spaulding did not write it." This quote never happened. You are full of shit. There is reliable evidence that Smith Cowdrey and Rigdon knew each other long before they officially met. Cowdrey was a school teacher in the same town and Hyrum Smith was on the school board. Smith and Cowdrey were related.
jhuston7 4 years ago
If you do the simple calculus on the numbers since the 1989 Ensign, your church is going to have negative average growth within just a few short years.
grnmessiah 4 years ago
What half-truth is presented in this video? I can give you LDS approved sources to get all of this stuff out of.
grnmessiah 4 years ago
Mormons have gained 2.2 million in the last 7 years . . . reasonable growth, but many sects are growing faster (Presbyterians and Evangelicals, for example)
grnmessiah 4 years ago
It isn't even growing at a reasonable rate, now. I have been doing the statistical analysis, and although it's not last, it's certainly not first.
grnmessiah 4 years ago
There are 100 thousand people like me per year that are officially resigning and 15 percent of the people that are baptized are active. You do the math - The growth is a joke - just like the golden plates. It is a sham and a farce.
jhuston7 4 years ago
There are no half truths here, the half truth is the growth you are talking about. I can direct you to Mormon sites that admit that there is no growth.
jhuston7 4 years ago
Rigdon was also named by Spaulding's wife as the person who stole the manuscript long before there was ever any tie to the Book of Mormon. You have evidently never looked at the documentation. Accepting the Mormon Church's whitewashed version of history?
jhuston7 4 years ago
That is not quite true. They lived in the same small town and used the same printer and the same post office. Solomon Spaulding was a trained minister with a Doctor of Divinity and Rigdon was a Campbellite preacher. What are the chances that they DIDN'T KNOW each other? This is all documented facts.
jhuston7 4 years ago
That's one hell of an exaggeration! The last figure given was 12,868,606--however you get nearly 14 million from 12.9 million is well beyond me. Do you have the April Ensign from this year?
grnmessiah 4 years ago
I know all about Mormons. Much more than I care to. I would guess I know a hell of a lot more than you do Sparky. There was nothing restored it was a long con that got the con man killed.
jhuston7 4 years ago
Testiphony time. Ohhh Geeee it is twoo. American Indians and Pacific Islanders are Lamanites - sorry, they are Asian. None of the witnesses ever denied their testiphony - sorry, they did. The Book of Mormon was "traslated using the Urim and Thummim, sorry it was an occult seer stone in the crown of a hat. It is all crap. Magik underwear, magik rocks, superstition and occult magik.
jhuston7 4 years ago
lol why argue? what are the chances the mormons got it right? Im saying Zeus could take the mormon god any day of the week anyways. Or that hindu shiva chick shes a badass. better yet thor, hes got a freakin hammer he could take em all.
robisnum1 4 years ago
Father Odin can beat Thor's ass--he's the royal badass.
grnmessiah 4 years ago
Have you ever tried writing your own Book of Mormon? Try it sometime. Finish it within 40 days, don't use any computer, internet, or technology at all, and then publish it for the world to critique. Good luck. Who cares how it was done, can you do it yourself?
brandonslc 4 years ago
It depends on what method you use. Plagerizing the work of Solomon Spaulding would not take long at all. Plagerizing sectionsfrom View of the Hebrews as Mormon Church Historian BH Roberts suggested would also not take that long. Needing to make over 3,000 corrections does not sound to me like the original version was all that correct.
jhuston7 4 years ago
It would also be much easier because much of the doctrine in the Book of Mormon is Campbellite. Sydney Rigdon happened to be a Campbellite minister. One of Rigdon's grandsons said he was told that his grandfater had actually written the book over a period of a little over a year.
Smith claimed to have received the plates in 1827 and the book was published in 1830. That is three years by my count.
jhuston7 4 years ago
LOL - why do you tout bullshit? So Joseph, YEARS prior to knowing of Sidney Rigdon's existence, told people about Gold Plates, translated 116 pages that got lost - i'm sure youhave something on that - before ever knowing the man Sidney who had been creating the book Joseph foretold about? LOL. Are you calling Joseph a seer, but not a translator?? That's funny stuff right there man.
brandonslc 4 years ago
You have only read the Mormon white washed history. Oliver Cowdrey was a relative and was in Palmyra 7 years before they met. There is testimony of Cowdrey's boss that Smith hung around the print shop at the time. There are eye witness accounts of Rigdon being in Palmyra with Smith in 1826.
jhuston7 4 years ago
Smith was nothing but a con man. It was necessary to hide the relationships to successfully perpitrate the fraud. Smith was the front man, Rigdon was the brains and Cowdrey was the worker.
jhuston7 4 years ago
LOL, I can't stop laughing, that's hilarious, ..... I do not mind anti-Joseph material, but come on man, this is seriously laughable as an argument and you have to admit, at least with this, that it's pure crap.
brandonslc 4 years ago
I am perfectly capable of documenting everything I said. For starters I suggest you read "who really wrote the Book of Mormon." There is a significant amout of documted research that ties the troika together as early as 1823.
jhuston7 4 years ago
Brandon he is right. I am a 6th generation Mormon. I worked at Deseret Book after my Mission. I have read just about every well researched book on the Church. You are out of your element with these guys. Go and read the 7 volume history of the Church. Read Rough Stone Rolling (you can get it at Deseret Book). Read the Journal of Discourses. You need to study before taking on former members. They know their stuff. I know, I left the Church after my stay at Deseret Book.
john813what 3 years ago
john -
I am ever enlightened by your convincing testimony that I am "out of my element" with these guys. You must be right if you're a "6th generation mormon". Anyway who spends this much effort debunking anything is suspect to me, why waste your time? The only reason to fight something so forcefully is if it's a blaring contradiction of your actions - if only half the effort was spend finding your own God as was spent worrying about mormons you might actually learn something about Him.
brandonslc 3 years ago
Brandon I am sorry. They are right. Joseph did not see or translate what he said he did. I wish it was true but it just is not. You will have to do the study your self. Brandon I wish I had better news for you. I tried and tried to find evidence but could not. Joseph was a great religious thinker but he was no Prophet.
john813what 3 years ago
You are just spouting the faith promoting crap they expect you sheeple to believe. Nobody really believes any of that.
jhuston7 4 years ago
Then go ahead and astound us with your own Book of Mormon, like I originally challenged, go for it, don't give a bunch of "so and so said this" bullshit, write one.
And your other 3 comments, list sources, show me the 3,000 corrections, etc... Anyone can claim what they want without sources.
brandonslc 4 years ago
Some of the significant changes can be found at saintsalive dot com slash mormonism slash bomchanges dot htm. A more complete listing can be found at irr dot org slash mit shash changingscrips dot html. You can find pdf of scans of the 1830 version for verification at jhuston dot com slash Documents slash 1830_Book_of_Mormon dot pdf
jhuston7 4 years ago
The only source that one needs is the 1830 edition of the Book of MORmON. There have been books written about the 3900+ changes, though. Entire verses were added after the translation was pronounced correct and the book was taken back by Moroni.
grnmessiah 4 years ago
so where are the gold plates? can't we just let some scientists take a look at the plates? wouldn't everyone be a little happier?
robisnum1 4 years ago
Looking at the plates would make everyone happy. An angel came down and took the plates away. Thar is a highly plausable story, isn't it?
jhuston7 4 years ago
StuckWithJoseph'sLies:
Smith DID translate The Kinderhook Plates, and that is well documented, even by LDS "approved" sources.
Your comments are as fallacious and untrue as your claims on the Y/T Vid:
"The Untold Story of The Death of Joseph Smith", where you emphatically denied that Smith had a smuggled pistol as he was trying to blast his way out of jail.
You tripped over your lies then, just as you are doing now.
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
it is well attested fact JS did 'translate' partialy some Kinderhook plates and then stopped his translation. for a fuller in depth look at the occult joseph smith and Mormonism see D.M. Quinn,Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, 1987. and Lance Owens,J.S and Kabbalah: the occult Connection. Many pics. worse still is the Abraham Papyrus. see H.M. Marquardt, 1981. available from utah lighthouse ministries.
hypnotstcollector 4 years ago
What about History of the Church Volume 5 (taken from the writings of Joseph Smith by official church historian B H Roberts)?
grnmessiah 4 years ago
He wrote that he did in his journal, and this is mirrored in History of the Church, vol. 5, pp. 374--75. That was a collection of quotes from Joseph Smith collected by B. H. Roberts, who was the official church historian and one of the first quorum of the 70.
grnmessiah 4 years ago
For 130 years this statement was accepted as unquestionably accurate. Joseph Smith claimed to have seen the Kinderhook Plates, he identified them as ancient artifacts, and translated part of them. However, since 1980 some LDS scholars and apologists have argued that these statements did not originate with Smith, but rather Clayton himself invented them or merely recorded hearsay.
jhuston7 4 years ago
Even B. H. Roberts had to admit that Joseph Smith's statement that "the find was genuine, and that he had translated some of the characters may not have been known at the time to the alleged conspiritors to deceive him..." (History of the Church, Vol. 5, p.379)
jhuston7 4 years ago
The history of Joseph Smith that contains the Kinderhook Plate statement was approved by Brigham Young, who himself was at Joseph Smith's house and saw the plates there. Young even includes a sketch of one of the plates he saw at Joseph's house in his diary (Ashment, p. 2).
jhuston7 4 years ago
Church Historian George A. Smith affirmed in 1858 that there was an accurate system in place so that the recorded history would be "strictly correct." The historians and clerks engaged in the work were "eye and ear witnesses of nearly all the transactions recorded in this history, most of which were reported as they transpired (Edward Ashment, unpublished article on file, Institute for Religious Research, Appendix A, p. 2)
jhuston7 4 years ago
Joseph Smith hired Clayton specifically to record what he did and said, and "beginning in early 1842, William Clayton found himself involved in nearly every important activity of Nauvoo, but especially the private concerns of the prophet. For two and a half years, until Joseph's death in 1844, they were in each other's company almost daily" (Intimate Chronicle: The Journals of William Clayton, George D. Smith, ed., pp. xxii-xxiii).
jhuston7 4 years ago
"I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth." (History of the Church, Vol. 5 page 372)
jhuston7 4 years ago
I just want to highlight this one--this reference was written by Joseph Smith himself.
History of the Church, Vol. 5 page 372
grnmessiah 4 years ago
In a letter written from that city, dated May 2, 1843, Charlotte Haven said that when Joshua Moore "showed them to Joseph, the latter said that the figures or writing on them was similar to that in which the Book of Mormon was written, and if Mr. Moore could leave them, he thought that by the help of revelation he would be able to translate them." (Overland Monthly, Dec. 1890, page 630)
jhuston7 4 years ago
"I have seen 6 brass plates... covered with ancient characters of language containing from 30 to 40 on each side of the plates. Prest J. has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh king of Egypt...." (William Clayton's Journal, May 1, 1843, as cited in Trials of Discipleship — The Story of William Clayton, a Mormon, page 117)
jhuston7 4 years ago
STICKofJOSEPH:
You are posting on this thread as a guest. Continue with the childish name calling and you will no longer be posting here.
jhuston7 4 years ago
STICKofJOSEPH, this is how scared I am of all of this. My super secret name from the Holy House of Handshakes is Gabriel. Did you get that? Gabriel.
jhuston7 4 years ago
Jethro Tull is a great musician. I have listened to him since my teens. Providing acurate history is not bashing. It is attempting to show a little of the real history of Mormonism. You are too indoctrinated to ever even look at your own, approved materials.
jhuston7 4 years ago
This video is antimormon garbage.
(1)it has Joseph translating so no one can see him (he uses the curtain)
(2) it says Joseph's scribes saw how he translated. (I thought you said no one saw)
(3) It says he translated with a hat. Joseph said he translated with a breastplate.
(4) Quotes an exmormon (much like jhustler) about how Joseph translated.
(5) I love how the exmormon knew exactly what was written on a secret parchment that only supposedly Joseph saw.
omiolo 4 years ago 2
omiolo, here are some of the sources for this anti-Mormon garbage:
Comprehensive History of the Church 1:29
Comprehensive History of the Church 1:129
Ensign July 1993
Ensign September 1977
"The Word of God" -- Interview with Joseph Smith III
"An Address to all Believers in Christ" David Whitmer
These all support the rock in the hat.
jhuston7 4 years ago
Let me narrow these references down--
Nelson, Russel M. "A Treasured Testament" Ensign July 1993.
Anderson, Richard Lloyd. "By the Gift and Power of God." Ensign September 1977--you are definitely right the Ensign is an Antimormon magazine.
grnmessiah 4 years ago
greatmessup,
why don't you read those references before you quote them. They both back up what I say. Both give a disclaimer about this seer stone version. In fact the only first hand account says the following (from your reference)
"he translated, with the Urim and Thummim, or as the Nephites would have said, 'interpreters,' the history, or record called 'The Book of Mormon."
omiolo 4 years ago 2
My point was that he stuck his head in a hat; this contradicts your position in points 1, 2 and 3. ""Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light. And in the darkness the spiritual light would shine." Ensign September 1977 Anderson, Richard Lloyd, quoting David Whimer (one of the 3 witnesses).
grnmessiah 4 years ago
Also, I found a record that said that he was sitting across the table from Martin Harris, with nothing between them. Harris is reported in the Ensign to have seen the plates before anyone other than Joseph was allowed to see them.
grnmessiah 4 years ago
I've got an excellent Antimormon source for you Comprehensive History of the Church (By BH Roberts, of the quorum of the 12) Volume 1 page 129--it says that the rock that Joseph Smith used for much of the translation was the one that he used for treasure hunting and was dug up during a treasure hunting expedition with his brother Hyrum.
grnmessiah 4 years ago
Also, IMHO, when Harris said, "when finished he would say 'written;' and if correctly written, the sentence would disappear and another appear in its place; but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used" you'd think that a perfect translation like that would not need more than 3900 corrections, eh? Entire verses were added after the first edition.
grnmessiah 4 years ago
Doesn't that pretty well say that the first version had to be 100% correct? Why so many changes, if the first version was 100% correct?
grnmessiah 4 years ago
Harris later clarified his testimony--he used both the rock in the hat (that was used for treasure hunting) and the seer stones were about like spectacles, only larger--this is from an official church magazine--The Millennial Star Volume 44 page 87. Who was right--were they transparent stones set in a breastplate, or were they spectacles?
grnmessiah 4 years ago
BH Roberts, who was the official church historian fails to mention any curtain, anywhere in the Comprehensive History of the Church. Was he antiMormon?
B H Roberts wasn't of the Quorum of the 12, though sorry. B H Roberts was of the Quorum of the 70.
grnmessiah 4 years ago
Did you know that B H Roberts was denied a senate seat because of his polygamous marriages? One of these marriages took place in the territory of Utah and the other took place in the state of Utah. These both took place after church leadership officially said that no one had been involved in a polygamous marriage since the national government issued an order forbidding it.
grnmessiah 4 years ago
Many people saw and reported on the translation process. No one actually ever saw the physical plates. Both Whitmer and Harris later admitted that they saw them in a "visionary" state.
jhuston7 4 years ago
jhustler,
nice try. Nelson gives a disclaimer right before he quotes David whitmer. You should read the WHOLE talk. Which proves my point. Thank you!!!!
omiolo 4 years ago
You know the name calling is really quite childish. It is a really poor attempt at ad hominem. Keep it up and you won't be posting here. Read all of the information including the quotes from the Comprehensive History of the Church. It is quite clear how the translation was done.
jhuston7 4 years ago
The book of Mormon quotes many things from other books, including the works of William Shakespere and those by George Washington.
Also, there are the large segments that were taken from the King James bible (including translation errors).
grnmessiah 4 years ago
That sounds really fair! God is going to send me to eternal torture for denying his existence. I don't even believe that Hitler would deserve ETERNAL torture.
grnmessiah 4 years ago
Besides, according to Mormonism, only people who apostasized with a full knowledge of everything could be sent to the Mormon equivalent of hell. The worst that I will get if Mormonism is right is the telestial kingdom, which Joseph Smith said was so much better than earth that you would kill yourself now to get here, if you only knew.
grnmessiah 4 years ago
Nancy Winchester also had two living parents and was secretly married to him when she was 14.
jhuston7 4 years ago
Helen Mar Kimball was the daughter of Heber C. Kimball who died in 1868, long after Smith's shootout. If you read Helen's journal there was NO doubt there was sex involved.
jhuston7 4 years ago
The average age of puberty in 1840 according to all of the medical information was 17. He was marrying girls at 14. The average age has declined since 1840. Look it up.
jhuston7 4 years ago
The youngest wife I know of was Helen Mar Kimball at age 14. Nancy Winchester was also 14, but a couple of months older. He propositioned, but did not marry Mary Rollins when she was 12. He did marry her later as a polyandrous husband after she was already married and was Mary Rollins Lightner.
jhuston7 4 years ago
Yes, I agree. Joseph Smith had nothing but a bunch of lies. What a coward, not even willing to look at your own Mormon approved books. Afraid of what you will find.
jhuston7 4 years ago