Firstly, I would guess the 5.7 is most likely polymer-tipped and expands, while I doubt you used a polymer-tipped .22 wmr. You also used a rifle compared to a pistol. This is far and away one of the least intelligent "tests" I've ever seen.
Sour grapes! this video is about 5.7 & 22WMR not the music....FN57 is not an IDEAL weapon due to high costs of unit & ammo.. I'd rather stick to my SAM Elite Cal45.. nice info!
.22 WMR all the way. Its alot cheaper than shooting that $25 for 50 rds 5.7 crap. The five seven is a cool pistol though, but for the money you spend on five seven ammo, id much rather shoot 45 acp
just went to buds guns and checked out the FN and DAMN!!!!!!!!!!! it's around $1000 bucks for it! isn't that the gun used in the VA shootings? if it is, i guess the price sky rocketed after that crazed incident. RIP to those who passed.
@blaziankhmer it was used at the fort hood shootings yeah. the cost has always been around $1000. that seems expensive compared to a glock or something, but quite normal compared to a 1911. bear in mind that gun is made of a mix of metal/polymer, including the slide which is part polymer part metal. its a damn good gun, if you can find the ammo for it.
@jimmyhoffa9 yea, i was reading articles on the fort hood shooting. it's sad to see someone with a US army uniform to go berserk. i hope they don't execute him, he is paralyze from the waste down now. let the fucker suffer in a wheel chair for life. death is too easily, trapped in a wheel chair is hard.
yeah, but what is that round good for other then penetrating Armour? in a full auto sub gun you can put a lot down range to make up for its small over penetrating bullet, but in a pistol, good luck in a defense situation.
@Halvorson it was used in the fort hood shooting where 12 people were killed by the 5.7 round and 30 wounded. its around the same diameter as a 5.56 round, but a little shorter. roughly the same weight too i believe.
@jimmyhoffa9 well it will kill people, its just not nearly the best choice. and the 5.56 has enough energy to fragment or tumble on impact, and produce hydrostatic shock. In your argument, the .22 short would be comparable to the 5.56 too.
I would like to post this as a response anywhere people compare the 5.7x28 to a .22mag. I can certainly see a comparison to the .22 Hornet. Yes the .22 WMR is cheaper and totally effective for what it's made for in a rifle, but I think people forget (besides the differences in deposited energy, penetration and fragmentation) that straight sided cases are really jam prone in a semi-auto pistol when that feed ramp and chamber start getting dirty. Thanks for the post!
@762girl "straight sided cases are really jam prone in a semi-auto pistol when that feed ramp and chamber start getting dirty." really? I haven't found that to be that case with my Browning Buckmark 22LR semiauto pistol, it's very reliable.
Great test. It would be fun to see the difference between a .357 Sig and the 5.7x28 too. Still amazed that people are trying to argue that the .22 WMR is in the same ballpark as the 5.7! Imagine trying to design a semiauto handgun on a straight walled rimfire mag case and have it be reliable!
@762girl i don't think people honestly compare it to a .22 mag so much as they're exaggerating how ineffective the round is compared to other combat loads.
here in ky i know old guys who use ta hund deer with a 22 mag. it was out of a rifle, but still thats pretty good. id rather have a five seven any day, but there aint no way i can afford one, soon at least, so ill probly end up with a keltec pmr-30.
i have killed some pretty big critters with a 22 mag.don't knock it till you actually shoot something with it.there are a lot of dead coyotes who have met their end with that round.I woul not want to be hit with it.
if you have the money to put down on a five-seven, money really isn't a factor when it comes to ammo. I'd prefer that over a 22 magnum. Obviously it comes down to personal preference in the end though
@pokesfan92 not entirely. people readily pay upto $2000+ dollars for a 1911 handgun with an age old design(still good though). as one of the most cutting edge handguns out there, its not that much really. considering the slide is a metal/polymer mix.
it all comes down to what you want to do with the gun. if you just want to target practice or what not sure the 22 mag would be good but if your gonna conceal a pistol a 22 mag pistol has nothing on the five seven
again what it all comes down to is what youll be doing with the gun
@GENODELMAROATL the 5.7. waaay dominates in power and innovation. it was used in the fort hood shootings, and unfortunately it was damned effective. the .22 mag round is pretty inaccurate to be honest. search up a vid of it, theres one on the keltec channel of its accuracy, which is bad. the pmr-30 looks like a cool gun and the design is good, but the round sucks balls. sub par accuracy.
@ghostbudda depends on the amunition and the calber of the glock. personaly i'd rather have the glock .40 with a 16 rnd mag filled with hydroshocks. but i'd take the five seveN over a 9mm any day.
this test is vary bais all 5.7x28 ammo are all hollow points your usimg a .22 rn of coarse it not going to expand this would only be afair test if you use vmax type 22mag ammo
Most 5.7 x 28mm opponents (1) have never owned a weapon that utilizes this round, (2) have no quantifiable experience shooting this round, (3) think the platform is too expensive or they can't afford a weapon that shots this round, and (4) don't realize it's close relationship to .223, including wound channels, tumbling, penetration and yaw characteristics.
Why didn't you use the CCI 40 Grain FMJ in .22 WMR with a shorter barreled rifle like you would find on a much cheaper more readily availiable Savage Bolt Action Rifle in .22 WMR. Actaully the .22 WMR reaches its greatest velocity in barrels shorter than 24" 19-20inches being the ideal length for the fastest velocities in .22 WMR. I firmly believe you would have noticed considerably less differences in the level of penetration if you had conducted your test in this way. The test seems biased
2:34 WOW, a ragged hole almost an inch wide!!!??? just by a thousandsth off. Goddamn imagine how much blood can pour out of a hole an inch wide?? Now imagine several holes??? I know that there are other guns that can make a bigger hole, just that the piercing power, flight pattern of the bullet, range and accuracy, how concelable the pistol is, length and width and weight makes it really amazing, it weighs the same as a glock17. DAMN plus the 20 rnd magazine!!! holy shit...
The FN Five-Seven was developed AFTER the P90 PDW. The handgun was the realization of 'omg' we can engineer a pistol for this round.
Which really isn't that new of an idea. The Russians did that before FN. Some of their most recent applications thereof: are the SR-3 Veresk PDW and the SR-1 Pistol that fire 9x21 mm SP-10 ammunition.
here is my piece on the whole deal...the .22 mag is cheaper, same diameter, and in some cases can expand faster than the 5.7...you can say all you want about your test but, the pmr 30 is 1/4 the price of the fn-57, looks pretty much the same, and holds the same amount of rounds....though i do believe that the reliability is better with the 5.7 due to the .22 rimfire FTF nature, sales is going to prove the pmr 30 to be successful
ok first off a 22 WMR is used for varmint hunting as a 5.7 SS190 is used for close range armor piercing combat situations such as the infamous North Hollywood Bank Robbery (even though 5.7mm was not in use at that time). Now if you want to compare pistol round bang for buck a box of 5.7 SS190 is about hte same as a box of .357Sig compare the difference with a .357Sig and im sure you will be floored. However you are correct in the statement of 5.7 SS190 is NOT an overpriced 22WMR or 17HMR.
fn herstal 5.7X28 holds 20 rounds in a clip that's the same size as the factory 10 round clip. It can also except a 10 round extension on the 20 round clip totaling a 30 round clip that only sticks out 1.5 inches farther. Also, the gun has very small recoil and is extremly accurate at long distances.
These rounds are designed for varmint hunting where penetration is not that significant and this test was at 7 yards, the 22 Mag would have more energy left at 50 yards. and I get 216ftlbs of energy from my AMT Automag II 6" barrel, 34 gr @ 1690fps. I can buy 50, 22mag rounds anywhere for less than $8 and for the real purpose of the round they are every bit as good.
a .22 magnum cci 40 grain maxi mag has 320 ft lbs of energy. thats more than a .380 and about on par with a .38 special. they cost about 10 cents a bullet or less.
@captainvirgilHilts depends what kind of pistols. Those little dinky NAA revolvers have tiny barrels and they hit about as hard as a 22lr from a rifle would hit. A good revolver like a rough rider or a single six with a long 6+ inch barrel can easily generate over 250 foot pounds with the right bullets.
@captainvirgilHilts amen brother, I'm tired of stupid commets about the power of the 22 magnum NAA revolvers, in such a short barrel that cartridge almost doesn´t overpass a 22lr
@captainvirgilHilts there's 40 grain cci's that'll do good out of a 22mag pistol, but u need at least a 6 inch barrel, then ur lookin at about 1400 fps, not anything like a 57 tho
@captainvirgilHilts For whatever reason the 22 wmr is pretty barrel length friendly since its loaded with high velocity powders. According to hornady there new 45gr 22wmr critical defense gets 868 fps at 100 yards from a S&W model 351 with a 1.875inch barrel and gets 1222 fps at 100 yards through a unkown 24 inch rifle barrel. Pistol velocity would pick up considerably with a 4 inch. This is only a difference of 354 fps from a barrel less then 2 " and a 24".
@captainvirgilHilts The 5.7 gets over 2000 fps in pistols so no matter weather its a 22wmr rifle or pistol it still is considerably stronger. Brass fetcher web shows three different 5.7FN loads as yielding superior ballistics gel performance to a 230 grain 45acp federal loaded Hydra shocks.
@CHOPERUS23 your incorrect most .223 ammunition gets about 1282 to 1300 ftlbs at the muzzle. So a PS-90 with full power ammo from Elite ammo is about 50% to 75% as powerful as a .223. Elite Ammunition loads it way above Fn's lightly loaded factory ammo and energy is 600 ftlbs +
@elitesack hmm assuming that 320 ft lbs is fired out of a rifle... has to be no 22 mag pistol can produce that amount of force.
the equvilent of a rifle in the 5.7 calibre is the P90 with a 16" the force excurted is right at 800 Ft Lbs so doing the math and lack of a better word the .22 mag is out of its league
use something that isnt bottom of the barrel for .22 wmr . you can get 50 rounds of CCI MaxiMag for about 5 bucks. it would have made it a much closer scenario than this
I agree with you on the 5.7 round but the only pistol available to my knowledge is the fn which seems like an air soft gun that is way over priced. Hopefully some day the gun makers will expand and manufacture guns in this round. As a side note some gun stores will only sell the 5.7 gun as well as the ammo to people with proof that they work in law enforcement. Good review.
5.7 is like a .22 "super" magnum concerning shell capacity but you didn´t mention what ammunition you were using - hollows? shooting telephone books isn´t comparable to real life issues I guess - according to manufactorer civilian 5.7 bullet is designed with aluminium tip or hollow point to frag easily especially on hard targets like steel - don´t think there would be much difference on these type of targets
It is not only about speed but rather bullet shape and material for penetration i.e. soft body armour; for instance there is a KGB pocket pistol out there (called PSM) that fires a "5,45x18"mm round (bullet basically shaped like .223 rem but smaller in lenght at 315m/s (around sonic speed) - the result: penetration of up to 45 layers of kevlar (more than police standard) and with civilian ammo (may be illegal in US ,don´t know ?) why? because bullet doesn´t frag or deform at all !!
It looks like the SS195 would make a better Personal Defense Round, but all i can find in stores is the SS197SR. Where can i find SS195? Would it be better for defense??
I know next to nothing about the 5.7and am a fan of the .22wmr, but who in their right mind says it's just an overpriced .22wmr? A quick ballistics check will show otherwise...
I am personally ashamed that the US would allow such a sleazy piece of work as yourself make it all the way to Captain, I wouldn't doubt two months from now you create another Houston disaster when enough people point out how ridiculous your ballistics "proof" is, and just continue to troll you for being such a loser.
I don't know why I'm even still posting aside from sheer boredom, perhaps to see if you finally blow the last screw in your defective brain.
Who said I was a Captain? Oh wait your just making ASSumptions based on my id as well as just generally talking out your ass and making stuff up AGAIN.
You see Mr Genius, Captain Virgil Hilts is simply a well known character played by Steve McQueen in The Great Escape.
Kid you're a joke XD, I tried to link you a few of the cites on here to check out, and youtube won't let me post links in it... so you're whining about me not citing things that I can't technically site on this comment box anyhow.
Furthermore, it's been proven you're a censoring coward, that you think people are stupid enough to relate an FMJ to an HP or a fragmenting round... that you become pissy when people disagree with you, even non-aggressively, and that you're a fat piece of nothing.
-Unable and unwilling to stand behind your many false statements as usual. (btw ding-dong you don't have to link a URL you could just cite the website or source)
"it's been proven you're a censoring coward"
-But yet your still here rambling, interesting.
"you're a fat piece of nothing"
-Yet it obviously bugs you so much that you can't seem to come up with anything factual to debate with.
Oh and BTW, no one has or has had to 'prove' anything because I have clearly stated more than once that posts with excessively vulgar language and/or that stray from topic will be deleted.
And those who continue to do so will get the boot.
Will this not let me link? Because if not I don't see how you expect me to cite the proof of just how sad the damage is from the M80 .308 nato is compared to even a .357 unless you're thick enough to be packing a chest depth of over 10".
I mean.. do you not see the problem with him being easily able to buy V-max 30 grain rounds for a .22 magnum and posting them in comparison to the 5.7's 40 grainer? I think he's afraid of proving his pistol's not much more than an overpriced .22 mag.
Then he even tried to make the rebuttal that the hp rounds made for FN don't tend to mushroom properly, as if this is a good reason to compare it to a weak 40 grain winchester round not even meant to max the .22 mag's ability. Pfft.
"I think he's afraid of proving his pistol's not much more than an overpriced .22 mag"
-Oh by all means please prove it to us. Show us how two similar weight projectiles can perform ~equal when one delivers nearly 2x the energy at about 30% more velocity.
"he even tried to make the rebuttal that the hp rounds made for FN don't tend to mushroom properly"
-Ah lying again I see. SS192/195 were not designed to expand/fragment as stated by FN.
Oh and Captain... how is a pistol round that hits 50,000 PSI pressures not considerably more dangerous than the measly 18,000 a 45 fires? I mean I'd be afraid that plastic gun of yours would explode in my hand. CZ52's are notorious for exploding from using slightly higher pressure rounds than stock, and I've seen plenty of glocks explode from hot .40 ammo, which is running maybe 40k?
Moving the bar again to try and weasel your way out of your own words I see.
You first stated 5.7 was dangerously overpressured, now you try and infer something else by comparing it to 45. How about simply backing your original statement and answering the question I asked you in that post?
Now he's pretending I'm friends with FN, and that the points I've made aren't valid. He used an FMJ and compared it's damage to a hollowpoint and a fragmentation round.. and he's too ignorant to notice the flaw in this, or why people hammer him so much for it.
And now he's saying I was defensive from responding in multiple posts... I'm so sorry that I can't type more than 300 characters in one string ~snickers~ I wouldn't doubt this guy's still in a foxhole somewhere hiding from Desert Storm
-Hey genius, I know your having difficulty using even such a simple format such as this, but if you go back and look at that post you will see that I replied to and was responding to someone else.
"now he's saying I was defensive from responding in multiple posts"
-actually I stated quite a bit more than that but honesty isn't your thing either I take it. It was your posting the same thing over, not responding or answering questions, etc
Screw that... especially if he doesn't even know the wound channel from a FMJ 7.62 nato is far less than that of a .44 mag hollowpoint. It's in federal documentation... Also you're correct on censorship sucking, as well as him having issues. I started out this conversation with him as nicely and uninsultingly as possible.
Yet, Captain here decides to get pissy, tries to void my points by taking a few errors I spoke and using them to make me out to be some idiot.
I mean have you ever looked up the ballistic differences between a hollow point and an FMJ? Even out of a 7.62 NATO round, the damage done is horrendously inferior compared to even a .44 magnum hollow point, whereas a .308 hunting round with a soft point will leave a massive hydraulic wound channel.
How is that for facts and consistency? Oh wait... if you knew anything about that, you'd know an FMJ doesn't equate to a V-max fragmenting round or a hollow point now wouldn't you?
And once again in your frustration you have not actually quoted anything so we have no idea what you are addressing.
See if you look over here ------------------------------->
you will see a reply button, when you see something you would like to comment on click it. That way we all will know what the heck you are yapping about.
As for knowing anything... cite where I stated "FMJ equates to V-max".
I find it rather sad how defensive you've gotten when I've just tried to make a simple, non-aggressive discussion/argument over the two handguns. I mean with some of the points you've laid out, I could also add in that the 5.7mm is known as a cop killer, and was used against your own men in the recent Houston killings, Captain.
With all your crying, false statements, and inability to stand behind them I have nothing to get 'defensive' about. I actually find this quite entertaining, sad, but entertaining.
"Tin bullets".... LOL ;-)
Oh boy, you brought up a media-hype ignorant talking point, I better run and hide as you got me pinned against a wall.
LOL
"My own men"....?
Um... okay....?
BTW, what the heck does a nutballs use of a particular weapon have to with anything in this thread?
Your the one citing all these facts and having all sorts of issues, how about you address just half of your false/incorrect statements.
I keep having to correct all your bad info to which you you become a shrinking-violet then ignore it or change your heading.
I'm still waiting for you to cite your 'detuned' performance figures, your bullet weights & materials that do not exist, or CCI's guarantee among a bunch of other of your claims.
The SS195 is classified as a hollow, it's not my fault it acts more like an FMJ, that's the manufacturers fault, as well as an overpriced one. I mainly stated the P30 grendel coming with the optional 8" pipe because it's there, and it's a vast difference to the 5".
I haven't ignored the ballistic difference, nor have I left out that the 5.7mm is ballistically superior from a pistol in at least the efficiency. But if you want a solid comparison, show it, don't cite it.
(Such spastic postings that you can't even quote so that folks can follow what you are trying to go on about)
I thought you were buds with FN reps? If so you should be able to talk to them over some hot coco where they would inform you that SS192/198 were never designed to expand/fragment. Per their own design history the design is to alter CG to create 90 deg yaw as well as alter aerodynamics. Not a failure but per design. SS197 otoh was designed to fragment.
BTW it was rather obvious that your mention 'after the fact' was simply you back pedaling after posting all your incorrect figures.
I'm also curious as to why you fail to address the fact that I keep busting you on all your incorrectly stated figures. You ramble on post after post whining that you don't approve of my basic comparison all the while you can't even get your info correct.
You bitch about showing and not citing... okay, back up your claims. After all your the one making them
And honestly... do you think nitpicking at things like whether it's aluminum or tin cored, or 28 grain vs. 29.5 makes you seem intelligent when you keep dodging the obvious fact that you're trying to compare the V-max's power mainly to the WMR? Sure you've got the others showing, but you seem to pay the most attention to the biggest hole.
Also in admitting you never said that your ballistic aimpoint is nothing like flesh, doesn't that in itself flaw your comparison further? Food for thought.
The main flaw of course.. being you used an FMJ round from the WMR for a damage comparison against A V-max round in the 5.7mm. Of course the V-max is going to win against a FMJ, and sticking your fingers in the hole like it's some magic trick just picks at the serious flaw in the comparison.
If you showed the comparison with a V-max, then you'd be able to show the difference if what you're saying is true... and it wouldn't be comparing a needle to a screw driver.
-It's also interesting how you would like to pick at this comparison for not fitting as you see fit but you guys always ignore the pistol versus rifle aspect when making claims of ballistics being equal.
-Ignore the video and simply note the huge difference in figures when comparing pistol versus pistol specs as opposed to the all to often cited rifle data
There are no flaws? LOL... now I see why you get so much flack. I've been GENEROUS in being so friendly to your terribly skewed comparison, and how could you possibly think the handle on the FN is as thin as the Kel-tec... your source must be pretty flawed too.
It wasn't a particular round, it was a V-max round verses a V-max round. Is that so hard to show? Or are you lying about your overpriced toy with it's overpriced, dangerously high pressured rounds?
It isn't a particular round, it's V-max verses V-max. Again something you should be able to comprehend. Is it so hard to show? Or are you lying about your overpriced toy with it's overpriced, dangerously high pressured rounds?
Ah the desperate ramblings of someone trying to save face. You state that I am getting all defensive yet you are the one cranking out multiple repeat posts, resorting to claims of lies, emotional critique, etc, LOL
But to address
-YES it's a particular round you want DUH
-If you can't afford one to bad for you
-ammo is typically less than mid/top shelf 9mm
-Cite how 5.7x28mm is "dangerously high pressured"
Not entirely like an FMJ, but correct, and there is a tradeoff, much like the tradeoff between the 21 vs 31 capacity, and in the instance of the Kel-tec handgun being a far thinner, easier concealable gun in comparison. I think both are good handguns, and there are situations where both will have there benefits. In the .22 mag specifically, woodwork full of pack animals... 10 extra rounds can come in handy when you're too nervous to aim well and they're running at high speeds.
I assume you mean my statement about SS12/195 behaving like a FMJ.
Yes it acts entirely like an FMJ as is does not fragment or expand, the nib HP is a matter of semantics to fit in where HP is required. The most it does is sometimes spit the core.
As for being 'far thinner'... Grip width is the same, the PMR beats the FN by 0.1" at the controls versus FN's max width at the nubs on the rear of the slide (using FN and KT specs).
I'm sure you're happy to at least have a valid argument over the two rounds though as opposed to a bunch of rednecks calling names and talking out of their butts LOL
I'd just like to see a video which shows the difference between the two V-maxes. One thing I do think is relevant though is a 6" penetration can be good in a situation where you might have a lot of bystanders, f'rinstance in an urban area. People are legally liable for overpenetration shots wounding innocent bystanders, which is the main reason I love the .22 magnum, because even with the lack of frag out of smaller barrel, chances are it won't make it through the back of their ribs.
I'm not trying to be a prick, I mean it's obvious I prefer the .22 magnum and honestly doubt there's a lot of difference between the felt-damage in most cases I could be wrong. However, the comparison was a bit unfair by using winchester FMJ 40 grain ammo from the .22 magnum. They're not known for explosive damage like the hotter fragmenting rounds out of a .22 magnum are.
Yes I know which rounds you compared, but I was saying you'd get a lot less flack if you gave the .22 mag a better review by using the 30 grain V-max against the FN's 40 grain V-max. By giving the .22 magnum back a bit of the velocity advantage as well as a fragmenting bullet... if your correct about the damage still being less than the 5.7mm, you'll find a lot less people finding flaws with the video, and irrefutable proof.
There are no flaws as is and I was already being GENEROUS by comparing the two using rifle versus pistol. Most people that compare the two do so using WMR rifle ballistics versus 5.7 pistol ballistics.
I didn't have any at the time but all that using a hi-vel 30gr WMR would show is similar damage/fragmentation but with FAR less penetration. All one has to do is look at the numerous gel tests posted on line to confirm.
Also, one thing I forgot to add... the civilian 28 grain round was demoted to around 1800 fps due to armor piercing issues, which it still has... so although there are private companies producing hotter ammo, which undoubtably packs about 50% more energy than the .22 magnum, this isn't the case with the civilian 28 grain.
Furthermore, the Kel-tec is a far sleeker gun, and can compensate for velocities by a locked-breech or direct blowback which triggers on the pressures of the round. Also, no organ in the body is made of the exact same tissue, none of which compare to a phonebook. With that said, I can almost guarantee a rib-shot above the heart with a blunter .22 mag round is going to bust more bone fragment into it than the pointier 28 grainer tin-core, although I could be wrong.
Incorrect, because you're basing the velocities stated for the 10" pipe on the P90, not the 5" FN barrel, once again a skewed comparison. Also the P30 grendel came with an optional 8" barrel, and CCI's ammunition guarantees 1700fps from a 6" barrel. The Keltec is saying closer to 1230 for a standard 40 grainer, so I'm guessing around 1500fps give or take with the hottest .22 mag rounds.
As for the 28 grainer you're correct, although you still got which round I meant.
I mean on a video of course, because the .22 mag fanatics are going to have more fuel to throw on the fire without a proper comparison. FMJ verses a hollow or fragmenting round is apples to oranges, which is why I think you've had so much bad feedback.
Sorry for the multiple posts... but I honestly think you'd have a much better time comparing the two if you put some 30 grainer V-max and TNT rounds through the .22 mag, perhaps both through a pistol and rifle, as well as the 5.7mm through the pistol and the PC90 civvie model with the 18.5" barrel. I'd love to see how hot those rounds would go from the carbine barrel in comparison to the pistol or the 10" government P90.
Also, I did forget to add the P30 and the new keltec have a 10 round capacity upgrade compared to the FN, and the Keltec's model is a smaller, thinner gun for the more compact and sleek sort've feel... but as I said the muzzle flame is going to be worse out of the .22 mag always.
One thing I've always wondered though with the 5.7mm... the chamber pressures make it up toward 50k PSI, is the gun beefed up for that aspect?
I'm still not betting the damage is much different from a 40vmax in the 5.7mm and a 30 vmax in the .22 wmr out of a P30 grendel, but it's possible considering the former is made for a pistol, or at least a 10" barrel as opposed to a 16-18". The 24" you're using isn't exactly optimal either though... but as you said I'm not going to cuss or assert myself without factual information.
bad vid, bad comparison, horrible music. Disliked.
ObtainedReality 1 month ago
Firstly, I would guess the 5.7 is most likely polymer-tipped and expands, while I doubt you used a polymer-tipped .22 wmr. You also used a rifle compared to a pistol. This is far and away one of the least intelligent "tests" I've ever seen.
PooPoo2U 1 month ago
the 5.7 is a shaved down .223
JKCDLT 1 month ago
FN57, funny hole driller, but has the stopping power to "deal" with a home breaker? I doubt it
newhuskytwenty 2 months ago
stupid video and comparison. 22WMR out of a rifle. 5.7 out of a pistol. Should have done a rifle to rifle comparison.
ronin223 2 months ago
@ronin223 five seven is combat proven.
idontplaymmos 1 week ago
Sour grapes! this video is about 5.7 & 22WMR not the music....FN57 is not an IDEAL weapon due to high costs of unit & ammo.. I'd rather stick to my SAM Elite Cal45.. nice info!
jehranicus 3 months ago
stupid video
tje music for u ass stupid
foking u.
antotamakasan3000 3 months ago
Good vid, bad music, great idea. Thanks for sharing.
GunnyStilgar 3 months ago
@GunnyStilgar
idontplaymmos 1 week ago
Glorified 1000 dollar 22 magnum.
45 ACP or 10mm all the way.
Fotis416 3 months ago
4 mins of pointing and flipping pages .... wow best review ever
jsd5179 3 months ago
ⓣⓗⓤⓜⓟⓢⓤⓟⓘⓕⓨⓞⓤ©ⓐⓝⓡⓔⓐⓓⓣⓗⓘⓢ
isarr12 5 months ago in playlist FN 5.7mm X 28 Pistol
.22 WMR all the way. Its alot cheaper than shooting that $25 for 50 rds 5.7 crap. The five seven is a cool pistol though, but for the money you spend on five seven ammo, id much rather shoot 45 acp
lEgaLiZeVOLVE 6 months ago
EXELENT JOB thanks for sharing this, very informative!
curseofa5r5a 7 months ago
This is a great illustration of why I choose to use the SS195, I wanted a yawing round, not a fragmenting round. Thanks!
Reynard13Fuchs 7 months ago
just went to buds guns and checked out the FN and DAMN!!!!!!!!!!! it's around $1000 bucks for it! isn't that the gun used in the VA shootings? if it is, i guess the price sky rocketed after that crazed incident. RIP to those who passed.
blaziankhmer 8 months ago
@blaziankhmer it was used at the fort hood shootings yeah. the cost has always been around $1000. that seems expensive compared to a glock or something, but quite normal compared to a 1911. bear in mind that gun is made of a mix of metal/polymer, including the slide which is part polymer part metal. its a damn good gun, if you can find the ammo for it.
jimmyhoffa9 8 months ago
@jimmyhoffa9 yea, i was reading articles on the fort hood shooting. it's sad to see someone with a US army uniform to go berserk. i hope they don't execute him, he is paralyze from the waste down now. let the fucker suffer in a wheel chair for life. death is too easily, trapped in a wheel chair is hard.
blaziankhmer 7 months ago
yeah, but what is that round good for other then penetrating Armour? in a full auto sub gun you can put a lot down range to make up for its small over penetrating bullet, but in a pistol, good luck in a defense situation.
Halvorson 8 months ago
@Halvorson it was used in the fort hood shooting where 12 people were killed by the 5.7 round and 30 wounded. its around the same diameter as a 5.56 round, but a little shorter. roughly the same weight too i believe.
jimmyhoffa9 8 months ago
@jimmyhoffa9 well it will kill people, its just not nearly the best choice. and the 5.56 has enough energy to fragment or tumble on impact, and produce hydrostatic shock. In your argument, the .22 short would be comparable to the 5.56 too.
Halvorson 7 months ago
I'd love to hear what you have to say and not listen to the awful music. Thanks for the pictures though.
dayh8 9 months ago
Lets just say I wouldnt want to get shot with a five seven.......it can drop someone in a hurry. Outstanding home defense weapon.
f3nixfire 10 months ago
whoever chose the song for this video needs to be shot with the five seven
lookitsagrape1 10 months ago
I would like to post this as a response anywhere people compare the 5.7x28 to a .22mag. I can certainly see a comparison to the .22 Hornet. Yes the .22 WMR is cheaper and totally effective for what it's made for in a rifle, but I think people forget (besides the differences in deposited energy, penetration and fragmentation) that straight sided cases are really jam prone in a semi-auto pistol when that feed ramp and chamber start getting dirty. Thanks for the post!
762girl 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@762girl "straight sided cases are really jam prone in a semi-auto pistol when that feed ramp and chamber start getting dirty." really? I haven't found that to be that case with my Browning Buckmark 22LR semiauto pistol, it's very reliable.
taymerelane 5 months ago
Thank you for the video Captain.
POINT137 11 months ago
try using a dry phone book
38rosco29 11 months ago
i couldnt find the mute button fast enough
jrmyscttwds 11 months ago
Great test. It would be fun to see the difference between a .357 Sig and the 5.7x28 too. Still amazed that people are trying to argue that the .22 WMR is in the same ballpark as the 5.7! Imagine trying to design a semiauto handgun on a straight walled rimfire mag case and have it be reliable!
762girl 1 year ago
@762girl i don't think people honestly compare it to a .22 mag so much as they're exaggerating how ineffective the round is compared to other combat loads.
MaxAC40 1 year ago
here in ky i know old guys who use ta hund deer with a 22 mag. it was out of a rifle, but still thats pretty good. id rather have a five seven any day, but there aint no way i can afford one, soon at least, so ill probly end up with a keltec pmr-30.
gunman848 1 year ago
i have killed some pretty big critters with a 22 mag.don't knock it till you actually shoot something with it.there are a lot of dead coyotes who have met their end with that round.I woul not want to be hit with it.
jasonsxtn 1 year ago
if you have the money to put down on a five-seven, money really isn't a factor when it comes to ammo. I'd prefer that over a 22 magnum. Obviously it comes down to personal preference in the end though
pokesfan92 1 year ago
@pokesfan92 not entirely. people readily pay upto $2000+ dollars for a 1911 handgun with an age old design(still good though). as one of the most cutting edge handguns out there, its not that much really. considering the slide is a metal/polymer mix.
jimmyhoffa9 8 months ago
So 1st they said, 5.7mm is just a high dollar 22 mag.
Than the numbers come in, and it is clearly more.
Now the I hate 5.7mm crowd "22 mag is way cheaper"
Its a total different rnd.
bob
bobfall 1 year ago
im trying to buy a kel tec 22 mag or a fn. 5 .7 what bullet wins
the kel tec is $700 less lol
GENODELMAROATL 1 year ago
@GENODELMAROATL yeah but stopping someone from causing harm to your family or your self with a 22 mag huhha good luck
Shaggy2dope90 1 year ago
@Shaggy2dope90 so a 22mag is a bad deal compare to a 5.7
GENODELMAROATL 1 year ago
@GENODELMAROATL
i guess i came on a bit strong
it all comes down to what you want to do with the gun. if you just want to target practice or what not sure the 22 mag would be good but if your gonna conceal a pistol a 22 mag pistol has nothing on the five seven
again what it all comes down to is what youll be doing with the gun
Shaggy2dope90 1 year ago
@GENODELMAROATL the 5.7. waaay dominates in power and innovation. it was used in the fort hood shootings, and unfortunately it was damned effective. the .22 mag round is pretty inaccurate to be honest. search up a vid of it, theres one on the keltec channel of its accuracy, which is bad. the pmr-30 looks like a cool gun and the design is good, but the round sucks balls. sub par accuracy.
jimmyhoffa9 8 months ago
whats more deadly a glock or a fn five seven pistol?
ghostbudda 1 year ago
@ghostbudda depends on the amunition and the calber of the glock. personaly i'd rather have the glock .40 with a 16 rnd mag filled with hydroshocks. but i'd take the five seveN over a 9mm any day.
drstrangeman 1 year ago
this test is vary bais all 5.7x28 ammo are all hollow points your usimg a .22 rn of coarse it not going to expand this would only be afair test if you use vmax type 22mag ammo
9mmlugers 1 year ago
best test of fn 5.7mm vs. 22 mag. I have ever seen ,it shows all characteristics of both rounds. ! Thanks!
chattmanjiii 1 year ago
Most 5.7 x 28mm opponents (1) have never owned a weapon that utilizes this round, (2) have no quantifiable experience shooting this round, (3) think the platform is too expensive or they can't afford a weapon that shots this round, and (4) don't realize it's close relationship to .223, including wound channels, tumbling, penetration and yaw characteristics.
MrMrbighitter1 1 year ago
I wish someone would make a different gun that fires the 5.7 round
carter050591 1 year ago
Therefore i cannot regard this as a valid test to determine the true penetration ability of the .22 WMR.
SuperPoacher777 1 year ago
Why didn't you use the CCI 40 Grain FMJ in .22 WMR with a shorter barreled rifle like you would find on a much cheaper more readily availiable Savage Bolt Action Rifle in .22 WMR. Actaully the .22 WMR reaches its greatest velocity in barrels shorter than 24" 19-20inches being the ideal length for the fastest velocities in .22 WMR. I firmly believe you would have noticed considerably less differences in the level of penetration if you had conducted your test in this way. The test seems biased
SuperPoacher777 1 year ago
2:34 WOW, a ragged hole almost an inch wide!!!??? just by a thousandsth off. Goddamn imagine how much blood can pour out of a hole an inch wide?? Now imagine several holes??? I know that there are other guns that can make a bigger hole, just that the piercing power, flight pattern of the bullet, range and accuracy, how concelable the pistol is, length and width and weight makes it really amazing, it weighs the same as a glock17. DAMN plus the 20 rnd magazine!!! holy shit...
Jesus1229 1 year ago
XDXD even the yellow book cant help ya
BSMTSinger33274 1 year ago
The 5.7 is fastest bullet in a handgun at 2100 fps as a 9 mm would be around 1200 fps and it's also used in the p90 / ps90( same things) has a little
More kick than a .22 awsome and fun bullet to shoot!!!
amino715 1 year ago
@amino715
The FN Five-Seven was developed AFTER the P90 PDW. The handgun was the realization of 'omg' we can engineer a pistol for this round.
Which really isn't that new of an idea. The Russians did that before FN. Some of their most recent applications thereof: are the SR-3 Veresk PDW and the SR-1 Pistol that fire 9x21 mm SP-10 ammunition.
karkkosvolfe 1 year ago
here is my piece on the whole deal...the .22 mag is cheaper, same diameter, and in some cases can expand faster than the 5.7...you can say all you want about your test but, the pmr 30 is 1/4 the price of the fn-57, looks pretty much the same, and holds the same amount of rounds....though i do believe that the reliability is better with the 5.7 due to the .22 rimfire FTF nature, sales is going to prove the pmr 30 to be successful
fireball676 1 year ago
STOPPING POWER FMJ STEADY AIM SLEIGHT OF HAND = PWN
ipwnm00bs 1 year ago
the only way to go is a .22 mag...ruger allweather if you ask me....with cci jacketed hallow points and i real nice durable scope(leupold)
Chipm0nk14 1 year ago
5.7x28mm more better because it use by Speacial Force Military. And It range 200 meter. Good For Military.
MafiaGENGTEAM1970 1 year ago
@MafiaGENGTEAM1970
just because its used by the military doesnt mean its better.
21343 1 year ago
@MafiaGENGTEAM1970 You must be a COD Fanboy with that kind of a response.
stockaccord 1 year ago
Makes me wonder what the 5.7 would do in a rifle
Madclocker 1 year ago
ok first off a 22 WMR is used for varmint hunting as a 5.7 SS190 is used for close range armor piercing combat situations such as the infamous North Hollywood Bank Robbery (even though 5.7mm was not in use at that time). Now if you want to compare pistol round bang for buck a box of 5.7 SS190 is about hte same as a box of .357Sig compare the difference with a .357Sig and im sure you will be floored. However you are correct in the statement of 5.7 SS190 is NOT an overpriced 22WMR or 17HMR.
Spartan536 1 year ago
@Spartan536 Yes, also compare the recoil difference between a 5.7 and a .357sig and you will be floored by the difference too.
mimixownzall 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Giuen Outright Webstore - Google Groups
Giuelith 1 year ago
fn herstal 5.7X28 holds 20 rounds in a clip that's the same size as the factory 10 round clip. It can also except a 10 round extension on the 20 round clip totaling a 30 round clip that only sticks out 1.5 inches farther. Also, the gun has very small recoil and is extremly accurate at long distances.
ajohnson 1 year ago
So what?
These rounds are designed for varmint hunting where penetration is not that significant and this test was at 7 yards, the 22 Mag would have more energy left at 50 yards. and I get 216ftlbs of energy from my AMT Automag II 6" barrel, 34 gr @ 1690fps. I can buy 50, 22mag rounds anywhere for less than $8 and for the real purpose of the round they are every bit as good.
Nunnyabizz101 1 year ago
Man, FN Herstal is the best! 5.7x28mm FTW!!!
Recon911PDW 1 year ago
ditch the music and talk to us.
jmosler9 1 year ago
a .22 magnum cci 40 grain maxi mag has 320 ft lbs of energy. thats more than a .380 and about on par with a .38 special. they cost about 10 cents a bullet or less.
elitesack 1 year ago
@elitesack
-40gr WMR can approach that energy figure but ONLY out of a rifle, in pistols one is hard pressed to hit the 130's with it.
captainvirgilHilts 1 year ago
@captainvirgilHilts depends what kind of pistols. Those little dinky NAA revolvers have tiny barrels and they hit about as hard as a 22lr from a rifle would hit. A good revolver like a rough rider or a single six with a long 6+ inch barrel can easily generate over 250 foot pounds with the right bullets.
EliteAmericans 1 year ago
@captainvirgilHilts amen brother, I'm tired of stupid commets about the power of the 22 magnum NAA revolvers, in such a short barrel that cartridge almost doesn´t overpass a 22lr
newhuskytwenty 1 year ago
@captainvirgilHilts there's 40 grain cci's that'll do good out of a 22mag pistol, but u need at least a 6 inch barrel, then ur lookin at about 1400 fps, not anything like a 57 tho
SupremeAmerican 1 year ago
@captainvirgilHilts For whatever reason the 22 wmr is pretty barrel length friendly since its loaded with high velocity powders. According to hornady there new 45gr 22wmr critical defense gets 868 fps at 100 yards from a S&W model 351 with a 1.875inch barrel and gets 1222 fps at 100 yards through a unkown 24 inch rifle barrel. Pistol velocity would pick up considerably with a 4 inch. This is only a difference of 354 fps from a barrel less then 2 " and a 24".
smartguy104 10 months ago
@captainvirgilHilts The 5.7 gets over 2000 fps in pistols so no matter weather its a 22wmr rifle or pistol it still is considerably stronger. Brass fetcher web shows three different 5.7FN loads as yielding superior ballistics gel performance to a 230 grain 45acp federal loaded Hydra shocks.
smartguy104 10 months ago
@elitesack
ARE YOU FUCKING MAD?! a .223 has more than 2000ft/lb of energy at the muzzle a .308 has even more. Go back to sleep you retard
CHOPERUS23 1 year ago
@CHOPERUS23 your incorrect most .223 ammunition gets about 1282 to 1300 ftlbs at the muzzle. So a PS-90 with full power ammo from Elite ammo is about 50% to 75% as powerful as a .223. Elite Ammunition loads it way above Fn's lightly loaded factory ammo and energy is 600 ftlbs +
reesie0414 11 months ago
@CHOPERUS23 .223 doesnt have that kind of power. 1,400ft/lb at the most. maybe some REALLY hot loads, but barely. the 5.7 has power though.
jimmyhoffa9 8 months ago
@elitesack hmm assuming that 320 ft lbs is fired out of a rifle... has to be no 22 mag pistol can produce that amount of force.
the equvilent of a rifle in the 5.7 calibre is the P90 with a 16" the force excurted is right at 800 Ft Lbs so doing the math and lack of a better word the .22 mag is out of its league
Shaggy2dope90 1 year ago
10 cents a bullet? where's that again?
01KravenMoorehead 1 year ago
use something that isnt bottom of the barrel for .22 wmr . you can get 50 rounds of CCI MaxiMag for about 5 bucks. it would have made it a much closer scenario than this
elitesack 1 year ago
@elitesack
-Cite specifically how the Federal is "bottom of the barrel"
-Vel & ft/lbs are nearly identical
-Cite where one can purchase the CCI you for $5 as the cheapest bulk distributors can hardly hit $9.50/50 in case quantity
captainvirgilHilts 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@captainvirgilHilts
-Cite where one can purchase the CCI you for $5 as the cheapest bulk distributors can hardly hit $9.50/50 in case quantity
ditto on that ! .22 LR on sale is .10/round here....
great test here, thx
iamtheomega 1 year ago
@captainvirgilHilts
I would like to know where you can buy it that cheap as well!!
lkn4cat 7 months ago
@elitesack more like 15.00 dollars for 50
DishonorableSlap 1 year ago
Μολών Λαβέ at the end.. nice :)
timtanx 1 year ago
@timtanx Yep, I thought that was the best part!
axishans 1 year ago
3 rounds and some wet phone book is hardly a test......FAIL .
blazed013 1 year ago
Who cares? Why would you spend almost 1k for this pistol? I don't get it. Not worth the money.
richtherake 1 year ago
I agree with you on the 5.7 round but the only pistol available to my knowledge is the fn which seems like an air soft gun that is way over priced. Hopefully some day the gun makers will expand and manufacture guns in this round. As a side note some gun stores will only sell the 5.7 gun as well as the ammo to people with proof that they work in law enforcement. Good review.
georgedori51 1 year ago
haha i would much rather get shot by the .22 than the 5.7
hbauer222 1 year ago
but a 22 magnum fired out of a rifle and fired out of a pistol like the keltec pmr30 are not the same velocity..
joi1900 2 years ago
Thats the point, morons love to say that 5.7x28 is nothing but expensive 22WMR yet 5.7 out of the pistol outperforms 22WMR fired from a rifle.
Pretty simple concept.
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
Of coarse, it's just that you can't pick up 5.7 ammo at Wal-Mart.
MorfeuV 1 year ago
Nor can you get a PMR30... so what?
captainvirgilHilts 1 year ago
@captainvirgilHilts
Hahaha! I'm not saying that it's my preference. I'm just demonstrating the mentality of the people who don't like 5.7
MorfeuV 1 year ago
@captainvirgilHilts
5.7 is like a .22 "super" magnum concerning shell capacity but you didn´t mention what ammunition you were using - hollows? shooting telephone books isn´t comparable to real life issues I guess - according to manufactorer civilian 5.7 bullet is designed with aluminium tip or hollow point to frag easily especially on hard targets like steel - don´t think there would be much difference on these type of targets
janius777 1 year ago
@joi1900
It is not only about speed but rather bullet shape and material for penetration i.e. soft body armour; for instance there is a KGB pocket pistol out there (called PSM) that fires a "5,45x18"mm round (bullet basically shaped like .223 rem but smaller in lenght at 315m/s (around sonic speed) - the result: penetration of up to 45 layers of kevlar (more than police standard) and with civilian ammo (may be illegal in US ,don´t know ?) why? because bullet doesn´t frag or deform at all !!
janius777 1 year ago
Amazing results from the Pistol against the .22mag rifle. And that is with standard 5.7 ammo. EA ammo would have been even more impressive.
cakley01 2 years ago
@cakley01 and how!!!
axishans 1 year ago
It looks like the SS195 would make a better Personal Defense Round, but all i can find in stores is the SS197SR. Where can i find SS195? Would it be better for defense??
Reapers261 2 years ago
Nicely done
I do wish however to hear the narration by the guy fingering his way thought this phone book vs. the music
UltraXryder 2 years ago
What was the song accompanying this video?
I know next to nothing about the 5.7and am a fan of the .22wmr, but who in their right mind says it's just an overpriced .22wmr? A quick ballistics check will show otherwise...
jsmaye 2 years ago
I notice you only test one type of WMR ammo (Federal WMR isn't that great I was suprised it did so well)
I would test a couple others that are designed to expand.
Hornady, 30 Grain, V-MAX
CCI Maxi-Mag
Both of these will preform much better than the Fedral.
pfcthiel 2 years ago
Well then feel free to do so.
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
bansheekiller- On average:
.44 Mag 300 grain @ 430 mps = 8 Newtons
.308 155 grain @ 954 mps = 9.5 Newtons
That's pretty close. MATH DOES NOT LIE.
Different bullets, different purpose.
I delete lame comments to, it's nothing to worry about.
PROADVENTURER 2 years ago
how did u do these calculations? Kinetic Energy = 1/2 x MASS x (VELOCITY)^2
are ur calculations at the muzzle?
gvsfgdf 2 years ago
The energy of a .44 magnum isn't even comparable to that of 7.62 NATO. Keep playing Call of Duty, kids.
bansheekiller 2 years ago
.308(7.62x51) has more kenetc eery at like 1,000 yards then a 357 does at point plank
HEADBANGERBEAST09 2 years ago
can a 22 also fire a .17?
sparklerbombg 2 years ago
NO!!!!!!!!!!
huntwithairguns 2 years ago
I am personally ashamed that the US would allow such a sleazy piece of work as yourself make it all the way to Captain, I wouldn't doubt two months from now you create another Houston disaster when enough people point out how ridiculous your ballistics "proof" is, and just continue to troll you for being such a loser.
I don't know why I'm even still posting aside from sheer boredom, perhaps to see if you finally blow the last screw in your defective brain.
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
Who said I was a Captain? Oh wait your just making ASSumptions based on my id as well as just generally talking out your ass and making stuff up AGAIN.
You see Mr Genius, Captain Virgil Hilts is simply a well known character played by Steve McQueen in The Great Escape.
A pure genius you are sir LOL
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
Kid you're a joke XD, I tried to link you a few of the cites on here to check out, and youtube won't let me post links in it... so you're whining about me not citing things that I can't technically site on this comment box anyhow.
Furthermore, it's been proven you're a censoring coward, that you think people are stupid enough to relate an FMJ to an HP or a fragmenting round... that you become pissy when people disagree with you, even non-aggressively, and that you're a fat piece of nothing.
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
"I tried to link you a few of the cites..."
-Unable and unwilling to stand behind your many false statements as usual. (btw ding-dong you don't have to link a URL you could just cite the website or source)
"it's been proven you're a censoring coward"
-But yet your still here rambling, interesting.
"you're a fat piece of nothing"
-Yet it obviously bugs you so much that you can't seem to come up with anything factual to debate with.
Nice... LOL :-)
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
Oh and BTW, no one has or has had to 'prove' anything because I have clearly stated more than once that posts with excessively vulgar language and/or that stray from topic will be deleted.
And those who continue to do so will get the boot.
If you don't like like it either:
a) post like at least a halfway mature adult
b) post someplace else
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
Will this not let me link? Because if not I don't see how you expect me to cite the proof of just how sad the damage is from the M80 .308 nato is compared to even a .357 unless you're thick enough to be packing a chest depth of over 10".
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
Another failure to back up or stand behind your own words I guess.
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
I mean.. do you not see the problem with him being easily able to buy V-max 30 grain rounds for a .22 magnum and posting them in comparison to the 5.7's 40 grainer? I think he's afraid of proving his pistol's not much more than an overpriced .22 mag.
Then he even tried to make the rebuttal that the hp rounds made for FN don't tend to mushroom properly, as if this is a good reason to compare it to a weak 40 grain winchester round not even meant to max the .22 mag's ability. Pfft.
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
"I think he's afraid of proving his pistol's not much more than an overpriced .22 mag"
-Oh by all means please prove it to us. Show us how two similar weight projectiles can perform ~equal when one delivers nearly 2x the energy at about 30% more velocity.
"he even tried to make the rebuttal that the hp rounds made for FN don't tend to mushroom properly"
-Ah lying again I see. SS192/195 were not designed to expand/fragment as stated by FN.
"Honesty & accuracy Pfft" -IcabodCrane
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
Oh and Captain... how is a pistol round that hits 50,000 PSI pressures not considerably more dangerous than the measly 18,000 a 45 fires? I mean I'd be afraid that plastic gun of yours would explode in my hand. CZ52's are notorious for exploding from using slightly higher pressure rounds than stock, and I've seen plenty of glocks explode from hot .40 ammo, which is running maybe 40k?
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
Moving the bar again to try and weasel your way out of your own words I see.
You first stated 5.7 was dangerously overpressured, now you try and infer something else by comparing it to 45. How about simply backing your original statement and answering the question I asked you in that post?
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
Now he's pretending I'm friends with FN, and that the points I've made aren't valid. He used an FMJ and compared it's damage to a hollowpoint and a fragmentation round.. and he's too ignorant to notice the flaw in this, or why people hammer him so much for it.
And now he's saying I was defensive from responding in multiple posts... I'm so sorry that I can't type more than 300 characters in one string ~snickers~ I wouldn't doubt this guy's still in a foxhole somewhere hiding from Desert Storm
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
"Now he's pretending I'm friends with FN"
-Hey genius, I know your having difficulty using even such a simple format such as this, but if you go back and look at that post you will see that I replied to and was responding to someone else.
"now he's saying I was defensive from responding in multiple posts"
-actually I stated quite a bit more than that but honesty isn't your thing either I take it. It was your posting the same thing over, not responding or answering questions, etc
Try again
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
Screw that... especially if he doesn't even know the wound channel from a FMJ 7.62 nato is far less than that of a .44 mag hollowpoint. It's in federal documentation... Also you're correct on censorship sucking, as well as him having issues. I started out this conversation with him as nicely and uninsultingly as possible.
Yet, Captain here decides to get pissy, tries to void my points by taking a few errors I spoke and using them to make me out to be some idiot.
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
Can you ever stand behind your own words? Let me cite you again;
"Even out of a 7.62 NATO round, the damage done is horrendously inferior compared to even a .44 magnum hollow point"
-Yet you move the bar again to try and cover your original statement. So again, show us how 7.62 NATO is "horrendously inferior" to 44 mag.
BTW you void your own points everytime you start typing LOL
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
Phonebook = poor man's ballistic gelatin
navyavi469 2 years ago
I mean have you ever looked up the ballistic differences between a hollow point and an FMJ? Even out of a 7.62 NATO round, the damage done is horrendously inferior compared to even a .44 magnum hollow point, whereas a .308 hunting round with a soft point will leave a massive hydraulic wound channel.
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
7.62 NATO is "horrendously inferior" to a 44 magnum HP.
-picks jaw off floor
-starts uncontrollably laughing
-snorts morning coffee out of nose onto keyboard
-almost wets pants
-regains composure long enough to type........
You sir are a hoot!
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
How is that for facts and consistency? Oh wait... if you knew anything about that, you'd know an FMJ doesn't equate to a V-max fragmenting round or a hollow point now wouldn't you?
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
And once again in your frustration you have not actually quoted anything so we have no idea what you are addressing.
See if you look over here ------------------------------->
you will see a reply button, when you see something you would like to comment on click it. That way we all will know what the heck you are yapping about.
As for knowing anything... cite where I stated "FMJ equates to V-max".
I will be waiting ;-)
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
I find it rather sad how defensive you've gotten when I've just tried to make a simple, non-aggressive discussion/argument over the two handguns. I mean with some of the points you've laid out, I could also add in that the 5.7mm is known as a cop killer, and was used against your own men in the recent Houston killings, Captain.
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
LOL
With all your crying, false statements, and inability to stand behind them I have nothing to get 'defensive' about. I actually find this quite entertaining, sad, but entertaining.
"Tin bullets".... LOL ;-)
Oh boy, you brought up a media-hype ignorant talking point, I better run and hide as you got me pinned against a wall.
LOL
"My own men"....?
Um... okay....?
BTW, what the heck does a nutballs use of a particular weapon have to with anything in this thread?
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
Also:
- prove it'll push that vel out of your pistol with the chrono.
- prove your buddy's single six doesn't have a wide gap and is in working order, followed by a chrono.
- prove the 30 grain V-max won't go further than 6-7"
- point out the vast difference in price in the two rounds.
Then if you can get your hands on a P30 or a Keltec, let's see how your FN does at 25 yards accuracy wise.
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
By all means... after you.
Your the one citing all these facts and having all sorts of issues, how about you address just half of your false/incorrect statements.
I keep having to correct all your bad info to which you you become a shrinking-violet then ignore it or change your heading.
I'm still waiting for you to cite your 'detuned' performance figures, your bullet weights & materials that do not exist, or CCI's guarantee among a bunch of other of your claims.
Oh wait, nitpicking
:-P
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
The SS195 is classified as a hollow, it's not my fault it acts more like an FMJ, that's the manufacturers fault, as well as an overpriced one. I mainly stated the P30 grendel coming with the optional 8" pipe because it's there, and it's a vast difference to the 5".
I haven't ignored the ballistic difference, nor have I left out that the 5.7mm is ballistically superior from a pistol in at least the efficiency. But if you want a solid comparison, show it, don't cite it.
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
(Such spastic postings that you can't even quote so that folks can follow what you are trying to go on about)
I thought you were buds with FN reps? If so you should be able to talk to them over some hot coco where they would inform you that SS192/198 were never designed to expand/fragment. Per their own design history the design is to alter CG to create 90 deg yaw as well as alter aerodynamics. Not a failure but per design. SS197 otoh was designed to fragment.
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
BTW it was rather obvious that your mention 'after the fact' was simply you back pedaling after posting all your incorrect figures.
I'm also curious as to why you fail to address the fact that I keep busting you on all your incorrectly stated figures. You ramble on post after post whining that you don't approve of my basic comparison all the while you can't even get your info correct.
You bitch about showing and not citing... okay, back up your claims. After all your the one making them
:-)
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
And honestly... do you think nitpicking at things like whether it's aluminum or tin cored, or 28 grain vs. 29.5 makes you seem intelligent when you keep dodging the obvious fact that you're trying to compare the V-max's power mainly to the WMR? Sure you've got the others showing, but you seem to pay the most attention to the biggest hole.
Also in admitting you never said that your ballistic aimpoint is nothing like flesh, doesn't that in itself flaw your comparison further? Food for thought.
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
"And honestly... do you think nitpicking at things like whether it's aluminum or tin cored, or 28 grain vs. 29.5"
-It's not nitpicking it just shows your lack of facts and consistency
"makes you seem intelligent when you keep dodging"
-I have addressed all your points and then some
"you're trying to compare the V-max's power mainly to the WMR"
-All three were shown, your the one who keeps ignoring the 195
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
The main flaw of course.. being you used an FMJ round from the WMR for a damage comparison against A V-max round in the 5.7mm. Of course the V-max is going to win against a FMJ, and sticking your fingers in the hole like it's some magic trick just picks at the serious flaw in the comparison.
If you showed the comparison with a V-max, then you'd be able to show the difference if what you're saying is true... and it wouldn't be comparing a needle to a screw driver.
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
-Interesting how you keep leaving out the SS195
-It's also interesting how you would like to pick at this comparison for not fitting as you see fit but you guys always ignore the pistol versus rifle aspect when making claims of ballistics being equal.
-Ignore the video and simply note the huge difference in figures when comparing pistol versus pistol specs as opposed to the all to often cited rifle data
:-)
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
There are no flaws? LOL... now I see why you get so much flack. I've been GENEROUS in being so friendly to your terribly skewed comparison, and how could you possibly think the handle on the FN is as thin as the Kel-tec... your source must be pretty flawed too.
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
-Just because you want a particular round tested does not make anything in the video flawed.
-FN and KT have spec'd their respective dimensions
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
It wasn't a particular round, it was a V-max round verses a V-max round. Is that so hard to show? Or are you lying about your overpriced toy with it's overpriced, dangerously high pressured rounds?
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
It isn't a particular round, it's V-max verses V-max. Again something you should be able to comprehend. Is it so hard to show? Or are you lying about your overpriced toy with it's overpriced, dangerously high pressured rounds?
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
Ah the desperate ramblings of someone trying to save face. You state that I am getting all defensive yet you are the one cranking out multiple repeat posts, resorting to claims of lies, emotional critique, etc, LOL
But to address
-YES it's a particular round you want DUH
-If you can't afford one to bad for you
-ammo is typically less than mid/top shelf 9mm
-Cite how 5.7x28mm is "dangerously high pressured"
:-)
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
Not entirely like an FMJ, but correct, and there is a tradeoff, much like the tradeoff between the 21 vs 31 capacity, and in the instance of the Kel-tec handgun being a far thinner, easier concealable gun in comparison. I think both are good handguns, and there are situations where both will have there benefits. In the .22 mag specifically, woodwork full of pack animals... 10 extra rounds can come in handy when you're too nervous to aim well and they're running at high speeds.
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
I assume you mean my statement about SS12/195 behaving like a FMJ.
Yes it acts entirely like an FMJ as is does not fragment or expand, the nib HP is a matter of semantics to fit in where HP is required. The most it does is sometimes spit the core.
As for being 'far thinner'... Grip width is the same, the PMR beats the FN by 0.1" at the controls versus FN's max width at the nubs on the rear of the slide (using FN and KT specs).
A tenth of an inch is no where near 'far thinner'
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
I'm sure you're happy to at least have a valid argument over the two rounds though as opposed to a bunch of rednecks calling names and talking out of their butts LOL
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
I'd just like to see a video which shows the difference between the two V-maxes. One thing I do think is relevant though is a 6" penetration can be good in a situation where you might have a lot of bystanders, f'rinstance in an urban area. People are legally liable for overpenetration shots wounding innocent bystanders, which is the main reason I love the .22 magnum, because even with the lack of frag out of smaller barrel, chances are it won't make it through the back of their ribs.
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
I'm not trying to be a prick, I mean it's obvious I prefer the .22 magnum and honestly doubt there's a lot of difference between the felt-damage in most cases I could be wrong. However, the comparison was a bit unfair by using winchester FMJ 40 grain ammo from the .22 magnum. They're not known for explosive damage like the hotter fragmenting rounds out of a .22 magnum are.
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
Out of like barrels
-28/40gr 5.7 delivers 275/256 ft-lbs
-30/40gr WMR delivers 149/138 ft-lbs
-Simple ballistics shows that respective HP projectiles will favor 5.7 in fragmentation.
-Simple ballistics shows that respective FMJ projectiles will favor 5.7 in penetration.
-This is not opinion but fact
-I have no issues with WMR as it will do the job well, 5.7 just does it better
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
Yes I know which rounds you compared, but I was saying you'd get a lot less flack if you gave the .22 mag a better review by using the 30 grain V-max against the FN's 40 grain V-max. By giving the .22 magnum back a bit of the velocity advantage as well as a fragmenting bullet... if your correct about the damage still being less than the 5.7mm, you'll find a lot less people finding flaws with the video, and irrefutable proof.
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
There are no flaws as is and I was already being GENEROUS by comparing the two using rifle versus pistol. Most people that compare the two do so using WMR rifle ballistics versus 5.7 pistol ballistics.
I didn't have any at the time but all that using a hi-vel 30gr WMR would show is similar damage/fragmentation but with FAR less penetration. All one has to do is look at the numerous gel tests posted on line to confirm.
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
Also, one thing I forgot to add... the civilian 28 grain round was demoted to around 1800 fps due to armor piercing issues, which it still has... so although there are private companies producing hotter ammo, which undoubtably packs about 50% more energy than the .22 magnum, this isn't the case with the civilian 28 grain.
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
Incorrect
FN has produced 3 types of 28gr load, 192, 195, 198.
The first two produced 2100fps out of the pistol, neither are still in production but can still be found retail.
SS198 is being currently produced and delivers about 2250fps out of the pistol, it is restricted sale per FN.
Projectile construction is identical for all three.
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
Still waiting for that cite... yawn
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
Furthermore, the Kel-tec is a far sleeker gun, and can compensate for velocities by a locked-breech or direct blowback which triggers on the pressures of the round. Also, no organ in the body is made of the exact same tissue, none of which compare to a phonebook. With that said, I can almost guarantee a rib-shot above the heart with a blunter .22 mag round is going to bust more bone fragment into it than the pointier 28 grainer tin-core, although I could be wrong.
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
-How on earth do you come up with 'far sleeker' as dimensionally they are nearly identical?
-PMR operation is not an either/or, it's a hybrid system like the FN's recoil/delayed-blowback hybrid.
-Never said any organs were.
-Never said they did.
-No guarantees here, just fact as follows
-28/40gr 5.7 delivers 275/256 ft-lbs
-30/40gr wmr delivers 149/138 ft-lbs
(both out of like barrels)
-FN does not make any loads with a 'tin-core' all are lead or aluminum (some with steel pen or poly tip)
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
Incorrect, because you're basing the velocities stated for the 10" pipe on the P90, not the 5" FN barrel, once again a skewed comparison. Also the P30 grendel came with an optional 8" barrel, and CCI's ammunition guarantees 1700fps from a 6" barrel. The Keltec is saying closer to 1230 for a standard 40 grainer, so I'm guessing around 1500fps give or take with the hottest .22 mag rounds.
As for the 28 grainer you're correct, although you still got which round I meant.
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
-I have cited no specs from the P90 or PS90.
-Out of the Fiveseven SS197 produces 1700fps
-Out of the Fiveseven SS195 produces 2100fps
-As for the 8" Grendel it's interesting how you keep moving the bar
-CCI website simply states over 1600 fps from 6 inch revolver, cite this guarantee that I cannot find
-My 9.5 single six cronos the 30gr Vmax at 1700fps
-My buds 6.5 single six barely breaks 1600fps with the 30gr Vmax
-Also these hi-vel rounds are relatively inaccurate out of shorter barrels
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
I mean on a video of course, because the .22 mag fanatics are going to have more fuel to throw on the fire without a proper comparison. FMJ verses a hollow or fragmenting round is apples to oranges, which is why I think you've had so much bad feedback.
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
As I said the 30gr Vmax WMR out of a rifle produces damage/fragmentation similar to SS197 but with less penetration.
Out of a short 5" pistol it typically does not have enough vel to reliably fragment and thus behaves more like an FMJ (more penetration).
The 22WMR can get in the ballpark with one of the two aspects but not both, there is a trade off.
captainvirgilHilts 2 years ago
Sorry for the multiple posts... but I honestly think you'd have a much better time comparing the two if you put some 30 grainer V-max and TNT rounds through the .22 mag, perhaps both through a pistol and rifle, as well as the 5.7mm through the pistol and the PC90 civvie model with the 18.5" barrel. I'd love to see how hot those rounds would go from the carbine barrel in comparison to the pistol or the 10" government P90.
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
Also, I did forget to add the P30 and the new keltec have a 10 round capacity upgrade compared to the FN, and the Keltec's model is a smaller, thinner gun for the more compact and sleek sort've feel... but as I said the muzzle flame is going to be worse out of the .22 mag always.
One thing I've always wondered though with the 5.7mm... the chamber pressures make it up toward 50k PSI, is the gun beefed up for that aspect?
IcabodCrane 2 years ago
I'm still not betting the damage is much different from a 40vmax in the 5.7mm and a 30 vmax in the .22 wmr out of a P30 grendel, but it's possible considering the former is made for a pistol, or at least a 10" barrel as opposed to a 16-18". The 24" you're using isn't exactly optimal either though... but as you said I'm not going to cuss or assert myself without factual information.