Choral III César Franck - 1st part

[Shenandoah58]

So many comments on here are too harsh. TOO HARSH!

[flute1234]

Where is your youtube video on you playing the organ?

[daviddifiore]

ps...the opening 16th notes would never be played all equally anymore than you would speak a sentence with every syllable the same amount of accent...while he may take this further than I would, the other extreme is far worse..cheers!

[organman52]

@daviddifiore That is utterly ridiculous. How can you equate persistent 16th notes [or any values] with spoken sentences? You betray your own lack of musicianship by asserting this. This freedom crap has gotten out of control. But how else can everyone 'express themselves?' According to you, we are to experience something different in each and every person's performance of this [or any] piece. That is absurd. The composer WROTE the music with a specific approach in mind.

[daviddifiore]

@organman52...there is important and unimportant in any phrase of music.Without this,..well... .I rest my case...and I will not resort to insulting you the same manner that you have others...though I could write a dissertation on what you propose as a good performance of the a-minor chorale...you are ignoring the French traditions by what you assert..and yes we should experience something different from every performance ...it's called performance art...sadly many sound like you propose......

[organman52]

@daviddifiore I rest my case as well. I believe all 'decisions' about how to play are piece are implied by the architecture of the music. So, I can only discuss this with someone who is not only interested in that subject, but a master of it as well. When the music is distorted in the above fashion, the architecture becomes unclear - to the educated, if not cultivated - and widely experienced listener. You have every right to believe what you believe, and so do I.

[daviddifiore]

@organman52 I agree that architecture is important,,I also know that Marie Claire Alain, Jean Guillou , (same Piece Heorique with a slight hesitation at the start...it's a French tradition)...and a host of other French organists begin the a-minor chorale in a similar manner to this video...since you appear to assert a superior attitude I see no point in continuing this exchange...as you can see I have no problem owning what I say..:)...have a good day..

[organman52]

@daviddifiore Don't you get it? I am simply not interested in what others 'do' with the music. Of course I totally respect Mlle. Alain and love her musicianship. I wish to repeat something I noted earlier - are we not to believe that Franck had a specific approach in mind? Were there a gazillion organists running around in 1890 trying to outdo each other and poisoning the canvas with jealousy and suspicion? I think Franck would be revolted by some of the things we hear 'done' to his great music.

[daviddifiore]

@organman52

O dear... I do get it and I don't agree with you....I like Mme Alain as well but she plays the opening of the a-minor Chorale not unlike what you have blasted as revolting..as do several other well known French organists including Daniel Roth..as none of us have heard Franck play I don't think you can assert that he would be revolted unless perhaps you have a ouija board..the fact that "you don't care" belies a very narrow point of view...cheers d

[organman52]

@daviddifiore And furthermore, I am not interested in traditions. They are questionable. to begin with. And who established them? Did Franck tell the people of 1890 anything about his music? Did he care what others thought? Did organists say 'let me get my hands on that' and ravage it with their own ideas. Or is this something that just happened to happen in the last several decades? Better than traditions - the ability to understand the printed music ON ONE'S OWN.

[daviddifiore]

@organman52 ps...music, dance, conducting and speech are all related...all of my teachers asserted this...so are you saying that there is no difference in weight or accent in strings of 16th notes? Please post a video of your interpretation of the a-minor chorale as I am very curious how you would sound playing this in the manner you propose.

[organman52]

@daviddifiore ps - it is you that I am grateful for. - just today I was listening to the Franck and noticed something that I had never seen before - in the 40 years that I know the piece. It is a wonderful thematic connection and I am surprised I didn't see it before. So thank you.

[daviddifiore]

@organman52 well..this is quite an exchange..I have a feeling we may agree about many things... I don't believe in slavishly following traditions but I do think they need to be considered...but I also think like you, that the music does teach..well my friend, if I got you thinking and you discovered something else that's great..after all we all learn from each other..best to you d

[daviddifiore]

@organman52 ps..was it Jeanne Demessieux who said " a performer has her

rights"...I love that one...d

[organman52]

@daviddifiore Never heard that one. Love it.

[daviddifiore]

@organman52 me too..thanks for the heated exchange..I love those too :)

[codeman2008]

I have to say it, organman52 is right. This organist does go too far with distortions of tempo, rubato, and he definitely enters a little early numerous times.

(And for the record, organman52 is an incredibly fine organist.)

[cdmcl3]

11/83>43>63

[organman52]

@Jsbfugue1 To the contrary, the man in this youtube has NO IDEA how to play this music. If he did, he wouldn't take FOREVER just to play the first four notes. And would you please tell me - what does MY playing have to do with my ability to comment on others? Answer that, O gifted one.

[MrDomi77]

Et bien riez maintenant.

Je vous souhaite juste un jour d'avoir la chance de poser vos doigts sur le Cavaillé Coll de Ste Clotilde et vous comprendrez peut-être...

[chrpayen]

@MrDomi77 : Il faudrait arrêter de fantasmer autour de cet orgue. Sans même parler des nombreuses transformations qu'il a connues depuis le temps de Franck, c'est certes un très bel instrument, mais parmi beaucoup d'autres très beaux instruments de Cavaillé-Coll.

Quant à Franck, il est venu en France parce que c'était là que les opportunités de carrière se trouvaient pour lui. Ni plus, ni moins.

[MrDomi77]

C.F. a seulement eu la légion d'honneur et et repose au cimetière du Montparnasse parmi les illustres.... avec Marguerite et Jean Paul

[chrpayen]

@MrDomi77 : Citer la légion d'honneur et le cimetière Montparnasse pour parler d'un "esprit français" en musique ? Laissez-moi rire...

[MrDomi77]

Cesar Franck à St-Eustache, tout l'esprit de l'orgue français que ne peuvent pas comprendre tous les auteurs précédents avec leurs critiques faciles. L'âme de l'orgue romantique par excellence, pas d'effets superflus, une ambiance mystique et recueillie. Les musiciens anglo-saxons ne pourront jamais comprendre l'état d'esprit de Franck, Vierne ou Boellmann.

[chwidder]

"esprit de l'orgue français" — Right, especially since Franck was ... Belgian of German origin.

(The rest of your chauvinistic prose doesn't even deserve to be commented.)

[MrDomi77]

C.F. a juste vécu 55 ans en France, et a terminé Directeur du Conservatoire de Paris...

[chrpayen]

@MrDomi77 : Non, Franck n'a jamais été directeur du Conservatoire ; vérifiez donc vos infos avant de dire n'importe quoi.

Et Marguerite Yourcenar a "juste" vécu 48 ans aux Etats-Unis...

[fastmotorcycle]

Mr. Wahain has matched this performance to the building he is in.

St. Eustache is a very "bright" building

with a very long decay. Few if any critics

have performed in buildings with these

characteristics. Their edifices are "dead"

as is probably their playing. Being crit-

ical is Oh-so-easy.

[daniel15671]

He may be rushing the beginning simply because of the excitement of live performance.

[markpianoman]

this organist looks like a tall individual. I'm 6'4" and never felt comfortable at any organ even with seat adjustments.....

[VDGG94ki]

This was used as the music to The Skin of the Teeth episode of Kenneth Clark's Civilisation.

[niamaztor]

That being said, I still think the overall performance is great and well done Mr Walhain.

[organman52]

Worse yet, he doesn't observe the silences with fermatas. He reenters early. Not a good sign.

[niamaztor]

This bothers me too.

[theophileoctobre]

@organman52 NO !! he's a really artist and a very good organist. An Artist has his own vision of the music. Interpretation is free !

You are not a musician. Do the same thing, and you'll cas talk after !!!

[organman52]

@theophileoctobre You don't know what you are talking about.

[organman52]

He does what many organists do at the beginning - too much stretching of the tempo. Why can't it be played AS IT IS WRITTEN - even sixteenth notes. The same kind of distortion is often heard in the first measure of Piece Heroique et Cantabile. JUST PLAY THE MUSIC.

[EvilPuffball]

I agree about the 'stretching' of the tempo... I prefer to dwell ever-so-slightly on the eighth notes (they are the important notes in the opening theme - all of the sixteenth notes are counter-melody, right?)

Anyway - if you ever want to hear the opening of this piece played AS FAST AS POSSIBLE, just see if you can listen to Vincent Dubois playing it. He's a mad man.

[organman52]

Thanks - I'll pass on Mr. Dubois.

The thing about the stretching of the opening measure is that people nowadays think they can do anything they damn well please with the music of the masters. They don't stop for a minute and realize exactly WHO deserves the praise, namely, the composer himself. The composers would not be happy with all this 'anything goes' crap that we see around us today. I would bet my life that Franck would not approve of this man's distortions.

[niamaztor]

I agree 100%! Besides, this piece must display intense agony and suffering from the torture of love...and hello, if u stretch the opening notes too much then all that goes to POT! Then it's like "oooh my darling I love u but actually...i love myself more" or something like that I don't know but it just doesn't work for ME!

[blackberriestastegoo]

actually, franck took many liberties when playing his own music. but i do agree about the "anything goes" thing being frustrating..

on the other hand, it is music after all, so a performer is entitled to some liberties, as long as they're musical.

[Jsbfugue1]

@organman52 With all due respect to you sir: You have no idea of how Cesar Franck should be played. Either state that this is "Your opinion" or stop from making silly remarks.

[organman52]

@Jsbfugue1 To the contrary, the man in this youtube has NO IDEA how to play this music. If he did, he wouldn't take FOREVER just to play the first four notes. And would you please tell me - what does MY playing have to do with my ability to comment on others? Answer that, O gifted one.

[organman52]

@Jsbfugue1 To the contrary, the man in this youtube has NO IDEA how to play this music. If he did, he wouldn't take FOREVER just to play the first four notes. And would you please tell me - what does MY playing have to do with my ability to comment on others? Answer that, O gifted one.

[daviddifiore]

@organman52

oh my!!..there are several traditions of how to play this composition...his is freer..I don't play it that way, but I enjoyed his as it is different...the fermatas..simply a means of letting the sound die in a big space...must change with the space..and I really liked the adagio especially, the way it built...by the way I studied with a Frenchman..kind of a combination of the Dupre and Langlais tradiitons..please allow others their interpretations.

[2468HOTROD]

This is beautiful! But another great recording of Franck's Choral #3 is on NAXOS CD # 8.550955 entitled 'Organ Showpieces From St. Paul's Cathedral', Andrew Lucas, organist. A must have for organ lovers. A beautiful and grand recording. Peace

[wurlitzer3]

Ah Guillou messed with this organ? I saw him only once - bizarre registrations, odd interpretations and sloppy playing (that might be beause he was old). It seems still a pretty nice French organ though the treble work is too strong for the foundations. Careful registration can compensate to a degree.

[zigeunerlieder]

Wonderful! I love this work. Thank you,

[Authman84]

Nice one, thanks for sharing... I am practicing this work these days, and this video is the first recording I am listening to...

[richard50000]

Affreusement joué,une honte!

[musicien91]

...oui je vois pas qui peut aimer....à part les américains....

[suduiraut64]

Great organist! But.... Guillou has destroyed this wonderfull VAn den Heuvel organ... They are only metallic sounds! That's a pity!

[octave4]

What do you mean "Destroyed" Changed original pipework, added or removed. This is an electric console. This was added, right. Was this not a A. C-C organ originally?

[suduiraut64]

NO, this organ is not a CC.

The terrific metallic souds are due to the higher pressure and to new metallic pipes added such as mixtures and fournitures.

[octave4]

I see. Most organ pipes made today are made of metal. One might say all organs have a "Metalic Sound". Generaly Mixtures are metal pipes. High pressure usually results in higher cut-ups, regardless of stop or material. This tends to drive tone flutey rather than bright. An excess of Mixtures, Mixtures which are too loud, extreme high pitch or badly balanced. In passing, A Fourniture is a Mixture - Usually 4 or 5 ranks.

[GJ1986]

I don't agree. This organ doesn't sound metallic. It's in the registration of the first part, where french sounding trumpets (higher pressure, indeed) are combined with too few foundation stops. Listen to 2.30: very warm flutes and strings. I have played this organ myself and I can tell that perhaps this organ has a more symphonic or neo-classical sound than the more common traditional french CC organ. A matter of taste I guess. I loved it. ;]

[octave4]

You mentioned in your original comment that the organ sounded "metallic", My comment was based on that. C.C. built symphonic organs. Perhaps you mean the NeoBaroque organs which are harsh, thin sounds. They do not have the "Big sound the many of the C.C organs, and many builders in England and US. I am withy ou, Do not like these new tonal concepts. Breaking glass might be a better description than metalic.

[GJ1986]

You're not talking to the same person now, eh?

I don't think this organ sounds metallic at all... have you thought about the fact that the audio quality of youtube is a bit iffy? :P This thing sounds gloriously rich. I even prefer it over the Notre Dame CC... ;]

[octave4]

You are so right. Not sure how I sent to wrong person. Appologies. Actually it is thinner, has less body than a C-C. There are many reasons but there is no disputing preference. Sorry to bother you.

[octave4]

It is not only the organs - The music Listen to that building !!! Where else could music like that have ever been written. This is the "King of instruments" sitting in the castle. Wow!!! WOnderful. One of the best I have heard.

[mpark91]

Very well played. Especially the Adagio is wonderful. Keep doing it! Greetings from Germany.

[Hautbois8]

Great!!

[rauschquint]

This is the best of the three chorales by Cesar Franck, and you play it beautifully. Thanks for sharing this (and part 2 as well).