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@1firsvy Yes if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints wasn't true it would of dried up a long time ago sort of like the RLDS . Think they have 100, 000 members .
@TheSoulamore I am a defender a PRO, I will tell you what you and those silly friends you have, are. You are ANTI, you are a NEGATION,, you don´t have a further purposal than believe blindly in a book to which you do not even honor really. I am sure in the Bible there´s condemnation for what you called me because you lied horribly calling me b**h , Jesus knows your cruel intention. I didn´t lie about you. My church is not God but it helps me to sin less and thx to u I know how much it works !
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
@dorisfenella Yes I think it all boils down to jealously from them and the people who ''claim '' to be an atheist . But I have figured out there is no such thing as an atheist , nobody is that stupid .
@markwalser No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing. Persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame. But the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and dependent till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, until the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the Great Jehovah will say, ‘The work is done
@jazzbummer There is so much evidence of what, jazzbummer? I haven't seen any convincing evidence for supernatural claims in the bible, and even its natural claims tend to be pretty shakey. Looking at the bible, it is interesting that god never seems to know more about science than the people he is talking to, and his sense of morality is never superior to theirs either. Why is that? And why are you only interested in how science applies to other's faith, and not your own?
@SammyHales You brought up morality and science from my comment on archeological evidence. I was agreeing with William F. Albright who said "There can be no doubt that archaeology has confirmed the substantial historicity of Old Testament tradition." Now first, what do you mean by "His (God) sense of morality is never superior to theirs"? Explain because it sounds like you are just quoting someone rather your own research.
@jazzbummer What I mean is that the morality of the Bible's authors is reflected in the Bible. In the Bronze Age--during which the Old Testament was written--it was morally acceptable to commit genocide, rape, torture, and even to take slaves. Not surprisingly, God spends a lot of time in the Old Testament committing mass murder, or ordering his people to do it. He also gives sanction to all kinds of horrible treatment, including infanticide, rape, torture, and even slavery.
@SammyHales Can you show me in scripture where God "commits" these acts: infanticide, rape, torture, and even slavery. I ask because I used to think the same thing on hearing what other people say and what I want to hear.
@jazzbummer God senselessly murdered millions of humans and billions of animals in the flood of Noah. God murdered all the first born sons of Egypt. God ordered his followers to murder other people, including children, many times. God stands idly by while these events unfold: Isaiah chapter 13, Jeremiah chapter 49, Hosea chapter 13, Numbers chapter 31, Deuteronomy Chapter 3,
@SammyHales God never murdered anyone. You have to understand the reason for the flood. When He created the heavens and the earth and all living creatures He saw that it was "good". When He created Man He saw it was "very good". In Genesis 6, after the fall, He saw man was very wicked so thats why He did what He did but not all were which we all know of Noah's Ark. The children of Egypt had to be done because pharaoh had to know that God is God and he is not.
@jazzbummer Wait a minute, first you state that God did not murder anybody, and then you go on to give reasons for why he murdered people. You don't get to throw unwarranted condescention at me for rejecting the logic that an all-loving God spent a great deal of time either killing people directly, or ordering them to be killed by others. I also reject your implied invitation to join you in your religiously inspired sense of self loathing. That is disgusting, and it is the true wickedness here.
@SammyHales There is a difference between killing someone and murder. If someone came in with a gun in your home and tried to harm your family yet you shoot the person to save your family you would not have murdered him, killed him yes, murder no. The sad thing is how you responded to my statement. I don't think adults should stomp their feet over a simple disagreement. I am not loathing in myself only the fact that "I was once lost and now I am saved".
@SammyHales You have to understand in Gods eyes we are all wicked unless we repent and accept Jesus as Lord. The scripture you mentioned I am sure you have no idea what each book is about? You don't understand that people ruled over a people back then, God wanted to protect His people but at the same time He used Israel as a light to the world so that others from different tribes and nations can come to know the real God. Until you realize that mankind is truly wicked then you wont understand.
@SammyHales By the way, God also punished Israel for there sin too. Funny you mentioned about the Babylonians in Isaiah 13 because God allowed them to capture the Southern Kingdom (Judah) because of Israel's sin. God in the Old testament we see a God who hates and judges sin. God in the Gospels (Jesus Christ) we see Him being a friend/savior. God in the New Testament (Holy Spirit) we see Him guiding and convicting. But we can see all three in the whole Bible because they are One. God bless you.
@jazzbummer Albright was a brilliant man, but a great deal of his work has either been overturned or dismissed for lack of evidence. So again, to cirticize Mormons on the basis of any legitimate science is the height of hypocrisy. Don't get me wrong, I encourage the dialogue because smarter Christians will continue to see their superstion is precisely as substantial as that of Mormonsim (which is not at all). Are you sure you want people to abandon faith for rational reasons? He he he! :)
@SammyHales I know you believe that "God is Dead", or maybe to go further in your thinking "He was really never alive". I will never ever change your mind and you can probably guess your never change my mind. If God is real and alive, as I believe He is, then He will speak to you maybe not with an audible voice but reveal something in your life that only you can say to yourself "That had to be God" because God is a personal God who is our Father who loves us. The prove is the cross.
@jazzbummer There is not a single shred of evidence for supernatural claims in the Bible, and the natural claims are incredibly shakey at best. You have no argument vis-a-vis evidence for religious claims, whether Christian or Mormon.
@SammyHales God created the heavens and earth out of nothing. You ask for evidence, look around you, look above. He is not bound by the law of nature for He is the creator off all. So nature can't explain God, only reveals His power and glory.
@jazzbummer That is not the subject I was discussing. You seem to believe it is important that archeological evidence does not support Mormonism. Surprisingly, you don't appear to have a problem that it doesn't support Christianity either. So why should Mormons care what you think, and why do you think your fairly tale is superior to theirs? Honestly, Mormonism is a thousand times more logical than Christianity. Mormon god doesnt punish ignorance, for instance, or put Hitler, M. Luther in heaven
@SammyHales "Honestly, Mormonism is a thousand times more logical than Christianity. Mormon god doesnt punish ignorance, for instance, or put Hitler, M. Luther in heaven" God doesn't send us to hell, we do. Christ died so that we can receive life. It's that when we reject Him becomes the problem. The Mormon church is growing because there is no consequences for sin which is dangerous. There is numerous archeological evidence that proves the historical context of the Bible. Go to Israel.
@jazzbummer Wrong. The burden of proof demands that it is for you to make your case. I am not simply denying, I am rejecting your promotion of untestable dogma in lieu of evidence for your position. I also reject the implication that dogma is on equal footing with science and reason in discerning the truth. Finally, it was intellectually dishonest of you to embrace science when you mistakenly thought it supported your cause, but then pretend it isn't important when shown otherwise.
The kid actually managed to make a good argument, which is very rare among Evangelicals. He stated that he could not hope to meet the mormon standard for repentence because it requires that the same sin will not be committed again. The Mormon doctrine is still logically superior because it eliminates Hitler and Manson in Heaven, but it obviously has many problems of its own. I think the problem was the mormon attempt to reform christianity for a more enlightened people. Xianity's not reformable!
Please explain what part of Mormon Doctrine is logicaly superior. Look up HOTM.org or UTLM.org and you will see that Mormonism is one mans scam that combines masonic ritual, American hyper-nationalism, universalism and the sexual fantasy of their prophet into a non-sensical and immoral hybrid with ZERO historical proof.
@Jonathan2342 If you reference my post, you will see that I clearly explained my belief that Mormon doctrine vis-a-vis repentence is logically superior to that of Evangelicals. I even offered my rational for that assessment. I don't believe a discussion on semantics will inform my contention--either way--that religious societies have failed, in modern times, to produce utopias, or even societies that can compete with those that largely reject religious belief.
Weird. It is like watching a believer in leprechauns trying to convince a believer in unicorns that his belief is silly! Understand this: Religion is dying, and none too soon! Atheistic societies have less crime, less war, and more prosperity than any others. Japan and Holland are the future and you morons are destined to the dustheap of history. bye!
@Jonathan2342 Nobody was calling for an end to religious freedom. The fact of the matter is that a large part of Europe is atheistic. It supports secular societies. And those non-religious societies have much less crime, war, and poverty than religious ones. I will keep countries like Japan, Sweden, and Holland. You bet! Fundamentalist Christians are pulling very hard to keep America less educated than it could be, and the rest of us are tired of you dragging the rest of us down.
You seem to not understand the difference between Secular and Athiest societies. The ones you mention are all secular - meaning they are neutral in religious matters. Most societies (Including the USA) are secular. Athiest socities take the governmental stance that there is no God and they are mentioned in my last post. Many Christians agree with secularism in society because it allows religious freedom where Athiest societies generally promote worship of the state.
Bear in mind that this girl is not a representative of the mormon church. She has learned a lot (like all of us) and still has a lot to learn (like all of us). She's explaining things to the best of her understanding, but clearly has some things to figure out, both in terms of her Savior, and about what her church teaches about Him. It would be silly to construe her thoughts as "official Mormon doctrine".
@smcphie I wrote an article related to this issue at mrm[dot]org/official-doctrine --- The Mormon Church has no binding, consistent, official doctrine on what constitutes official doctrine.
I don't understand the point of the whole "do you think Jesus is better than you?" line of questioning. It seems that what the born agains are trying to refute is the possibility that mankind could attain Godhood. And yet, that is unrelated to our current state. Yes, Jesus is infinitely greater than me. But that's not to say that I couldn't one day attain what Jesus has attained. Eternal Increase. Eons from now, I hope to be greater than I am now. At that point, Jesus will be too.
It's amazing they are playing Amazing Grace at the pageant when they don't even know the meaning behind grace. This hymn isn't even in their current hymnals.
@GraceAlone71 so you say that we don't have to work to geat forgivenise. if we don't do are put than you wold have good and evil people in the same place with God and why wold we need to be her than if that is how it is?
@BryceisBibleMan I'm not sure exactly whet you asking here. No, we don't have to do "works of repentance" as Mormonism teaches to receive God's forgiveness. God is very clear on this matter, if we repent He is more than willing to forgive the moment we ask.
No one is "good", everyone is a sinner. People will live with God because of what Jesus has done on the cross not because they were "good". They first must repent, and accept Jesus Christ into their hearts.
@GraceAlone71 so by you that I can go out and kill 50 people and befor I die I say Christ forgivge me and it is don and I be in the kingdom of God no for Repentnes we need to work for it by fixing the wong we have done.
This is for the coward that left a post and decided to close the account before I could answer-Matthew 21..‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord”, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?” 23Then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers. Repent! evildoer.
"The teachings of Jesus which say to love all other people are not meant to apply to you. " I see they don't apply to you at all. I don't need to leave the church is see how it is outside the church.
I got a really obnoxious email. I have done nothing but answer a question posted in my email. I would be really appreciate it if you kept your opinions to yourself if you don't want an answer.
"It was owed to us"?!?! im screaming in my chair NOOOOO!!! Everyone watching this read romans! oh my goodness read it and pray, what this girl thinks is but the opposite of what the bible teaches.
@bernytheplayboy, it looks to me that everyone in this video is practicing their religious freedom. It looks to me like two people freely talking about their religous views. Your argument doesn't seem to hold water. What would you consider the gospel? Blessings!
With respect, I can't see how what the guy with the cross in this video is doing is at all a "violation of religious freedom". Rather, both the guy and the girl that he's talking to are exercising their freedom of speech to compare and contrast their religious beliefs. Yes, he's trying to convert her, but that's still not violation of any rights (besides, the Mormons do that to). If he was campaigning to outlaw the LDS church or something, then that'd be against religious freed
I watched the video you mentioned, and I don't think that it necessarily supports your claim that large portions of the Bible that we have today are falsified or distorted. The fact that there were different versions in the past doesn't automatically make what we have today a "false" version.
But, I think you misunderstood my question to 2grace4me. I wasn't asking for proof that the LDS Church was true, rather I want to know the criteria by which she judges its truthfulness.
@2grace4me The only problem is that the LDS church teaches doctrine in complete contrast to what God has already revealed in His word. The Holy Ghost will not confirm something in contrast to what God has said. God is not the author of confusion. We can trust God, and He won't change His truth. That good/peaceful feeling in your heart was not the Holy Ghost, it couldn't be because it conflicts with truth. That is why God told us, "He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool."
@2grace4me But if you leave it for whatever reason - watch out! The teachings of Jesus which say to love all other people are not meant to apply to you. And you could be treated by LDS members like you are dirt or worse because Jesus taught people to do tha-- oh, wait... no he didn't!
Berny, you are such a hypocrite. You are mad at Aaron for correcting what he sees as an error, and then here you go doing the same thing to him. What makes you the ultimate judge?
@Bernytheplayboy OK, let's use logic.We all know the 2nd law of thermodynamics refers to entropy or randomness. Somehow enough random molecules met that somehow a single cell structure came to be. And after more random occurrences the multicell structures came to be. The rationality of these complex organisms is based at some point (going back) on randomness.
@Bernytheplayboy How is discussing religion with someone a "violation of religious freedom"? When a Mormon knocks on my door to promote his worldview is he "violating" my religious freedom or is it religious freedom that gives him the legal right to knock on my door with the sole intent of convincing me my religious beliefs are wrong?
@Bernytheplayboy No its not, thats sharing your opinion, its not like he sat her down in a chair and tortured her until she changed her beliefs. you are being intolerant towards intolerance, which is hypocritical.
@aaronshaf2006 Thanks for your friendly reply; I appreciate that. Now here's my point of view: if Mormons really have been deceived, you needn't worry about them because I don't believe God would condemn anyone for having been deceived, for He knows it wasn't their fault. He would never condemn the victims of a deceit, but only the deceivers tehemselves. He is far smarter than that.
thats the same logic that mormons point to when they say God has a body. you cant jusy go at them and say that my interpretation of the scripture is more right than yours with out backing it up, and expect them to back their claims. also for the mere fact that the lectures on faith were official and then were taken out of the d&c is a great example to point out to a mormon concerning their religions inconsistency. why argue about their consistencies?
@thedaoofplus1 I've spoken more about the inconsistencies within Mormonism with you than I have with Mormons. When I am speaking with Mormons, I try to keep things as simple as possible because it can become a huge mess. And I never once said (nor hinted) that I approach them with a "my interpretation is better than yours" attitude. I know better than that. When I tell them what I believe, I show them why I believe what I believe and I use Scripture and reason to do it.
@thedaoofplus1 If you wish, you can email me. I don't want to use Aaron's video as a springboard to debate the Trinity with you. If you wish to continue discussing a topic that is not related to this video, email me. I'll be more than happy to assist you in whatever you desire from me.
@SavedInLouisiana My friend Eric was filming, not sure why he shut off the camera at that point. I REALLY WISH the whole conversation was recorded. It was INCREDIBLE.
@aaronshaf2006 Incredible? I would say embarrassing at best. With apparent great effort and planning, all this Evangelical was really able to offer was: Mormonism isn't fundamentalism Christianity. That is hardly a damning critique. Actually, things that ARENT fundamentalist Christianity are making the future and shaping societies across the globe. It is obvious to responsible and honest observers that Mormonism is not true, but it is still vastly more sophisticated than F.Christianity.
What an articulate young woman. She worked pretty hard here, and it might appear that nothing was accomplished. But it was conversations like this that led me out of my ignorance about my faith (I'm not ex-mo, but I am ex-arrogant haha). The seeds of truth have been planted.
As an ex-Mormon, I have never heard anyone say that Jesus isn't any better then us...wow, that one blew me away....Seems like so many of them believe many different things about Jesus....I was told in Sunday School Class one day that Jesus never had any blood....Yeah, get that one....
Keep preaching. I visited you all this Sunday. Now I know why you weren't there. :) This girl was clearly indoctrinated and what I've been finding lately is that it's really hard for many Mormons to understand all out G.R.A.C.E. Unmerited favor. The gift that can't be paid for or work for because Jesus did it all. They have a hard time understanding that. As always its so good to see you your demeanor always stay calm and you to just ask questions that get them to research the Bible.
what does jesus being "better than us" have anything to do with anything when trying to argue the difference of mormanism and christianity? the mormon kid was way better prepared for the argument and way more rooted in their principles. the cat with the cross got schooled. heshouold rethink his motive for trying to witness to the mormons. trying to be right is no cause worth a fight.
@thedaoofplus1 Because Jesus is God & hence better than us. Mormonism teaches we're all the same ontologically (we're gods by nature or the gods are men by nature). That's the difference being argued.
@srprimeaux mormons also believe in the attonement, they believe christ created the heavens and the earth etc... arguing the trinity i can understand. arguing that christ is better seems to lead into an " i'm w\right your wrong" argument that plays a self defeating role in the over all doctrinal debate.
@thedaoofplus1 Mormonism doesn't teach a creation at all, actually. The gods, according to Mormonism, merely organized eternal existing matter into earth-like planets for their spirit-children to dwell on. And this is a "I'm right/you're wrong" debate. It's always been that way. Nor do I see how the argument that Christ is God and hence better (ontologically) is self-defeating.
@srprimeaux the book of mormon does not teach creation, but their books on mormon doctrine do, and they believe it. start that debate with one of them and find out. their books on mormon doctrine have sidesteps to christ being God. they believe that christ is sperate and can speak for God. Thats why i say argue the trinity, atleast you can prove from their earlier writing that they believed in the trinity.
@thedaoofplus1 When it comes to Mormon doctrine, especially theology, you'll come to realize that the Book of Mormon doesn't teach Mormon theology - at least, not the current LDS belief. The Book of Mormon describes God is a modalistic sense, not in a pluralistic sense that modern Mormonism does. And, to my knowledge, Mormonism never taught the Trinity. In fact, Joseph Smith said all Christian creeds were abominable (which would include the Trinitarian creed).
@srprimeaux i already realized that years ago which is why sited the books of mormon doctrine. and if you check out older videos on this channel(the prophecies of joseph smith, by james walker 40 minutes in) you will see when and how they believed in the trinity. up until 1921 they believed that the Godhead consisted of the Father, the son and the holy spirit. God being spirit, Christ being the body, and the holy spirit being the mind of them both.
@thedaoofplus1 That's not the Trinity, though. And any perusal through LDS.org on the subject of the Trinity will reveal the LDS disagreement of such a theological view. Joseph Smith was clear in his testimony that all the Christian creeds were abominable.
@srprimeaux please excuse my ignorance. but will you please explain the difference between a triune Godhead and the trinity? also will you please explain what lds.org in 2010 has anything to do with what was taught up until 1921? i also understand that joseph smith preached differently, is it your argument that mormonism is consistent?
@thedaoofplus1 The Trinity is defined as one God in nature who is three in His person. Do you have evidence that this was the LDS view of God at any point in its history ... especially in light of Smith's testimony? I'm talking about something official. And it was never my argument that Mormonism is consistent, but in order for that to be true in this case you will have to show me an official teaching of the Trinity from within Mormonism.
@srprimeaux how bout you look at the video i suggested. just go to the video drop down menu for this page,and then go to page 2. click the title of the video i gave you, and then go to the time in the video i suggested. the teaching of a triune godhead was part of the d&c up until 1921. you will get to see it and everything.
@thedaoofplus1 I've watched the relevant clip and I am familiar with what is said in the Lectures on Faith. But what's said within the Lectures on Faith is both inconsistent with LDS theology (past and present) and Christian theology (i.e., the Trinity). There are three persons within the Trinity while the Lectures on Faith Q&A states there are two. That's not the Trinity nor is it a triune view of God.
@srprimeaux again. i am not arguing the consistency of the mormonism. I am not arguing the consistency of the lectures on faith. what i am arguing is that lecture 5 page 53 teaches a triune Godhead. the inconsistency is exactly why it was removed in 1921. and no matter the inconsistency it was part of the D&C for over 80 yrs, i.e. doctrine. and honestly if you are arguing with a mormon this passage, and the inconsistencies that go along with it are pearls as far as leading arguments.
@thedaoofplus1 I don't see a triune God when reading the Lectures on Faith. In fact, it says there are two persons (the Father and the Son) and the Holy Spirit is the mind of both. That's not a trinity. That's more like a duality. So to use this as a proof that the LDS Church was once Trinitarian is not very convincing.
@srprimeaux what is the point of your argument? i am failing to see a common thread. are you saying the facts arent the facts because mormanism is inconsistent, and the facts should make it consistent? are you areguing that the theology is or should be the same as what the books state? what biblical basis are you coming from concerning the trinity? what verse says that God, Christ, and the holy spirit are three seperate persons within one trinity?
@thedaoofplus1 The fact is that Joseph Smith's view of God obviously fluctuated and the only sure thing we can go by is what is official (i.e., his "First" vision). That is what I use when I approach Mormons. I don't see the point in bringing up a theological viewpoint that is not official. And there's no single verse that states the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct & yet one in nature. It's what the entire panoply of Scripture reveals, though.
@aaronshaf2006 I understand where you're coming from, but sometimes one doesn't have the time to delve into every little nook and cranny of Mormonism when talking to individual Mormons. Plus one must use discernment because there are times when some Mormons would love to drag someone down into a seemingly endless array of LDS beliefs and opinions of history resulting in a seemingly fruitless discussion without any progress being made or issue being addressed.
@srprimeaux if you arent prepared or willing to dive into the nooks and crannies, then why talk to them? if you know what you are talking about it doesnt matter what road they try to lead you down, especially if you can refute them with their own doctrine and maybe get them curious enough to research their churches history and writings that they dont learn.
@thedaoofplus1 I don't need to get into the depths of Mormon history and bring up every single opinion of an LDS leader to have a conversation with a Mormon and I seriously doubt you do this yourself.
@srprimeaux you're right, i dont bring up every opinion. i just bring up the ones that contradict themselves. i try to stick mostly to the bible, the book of mormon, and the d&c. i wait for them to bring up other teachings before i bring them up myself.
@srprimeaux thats the same logic that mormons point to when they say God has a body. you cant jusy go at them and say that my interpretation of the scripture is more right than yours with out backing it up, and expect them to back their claims. also for the mere fact that the lectures on faith were official and then were taken out of the d&c is a great example to point out to a mormon concerning their religions inconsistency. why argue about their consistencies?
@srprimeaux there are even inconsistencies about the first vision depending on what accout you read from which church leader. how is the lectures on faith not official? and how do you come to the revelation that the trinity is three seperate personages and yet one in nature if there are no verses pointing you in that direction? hoe does your trinity differ from the one described in the lectures on faith lecture 5 page 53. not the q&a but page 53? how can you prove that difference?
@thedaoofplus1 The Lectures on Faith is not recognized as official LDS doctrine to the modern Latter-day Saint. So why would I even bring that up? There are bigger fish to fry, thedaoofplus1. If you would read the Athanasian & Nicean creeds, you'll familiarize yourself with the orthodox teaching of the Trinity and see how it in no way correlates to what is written within the Lectures on Faith.
@srprimeaux i personally dont care about the nicean creed, nor did i ask you about the nicean creed. you would be hard pressed to use the nicean creed with a mormon aswell. the lectures on faith pg 53 atleast can draw on biblical scripture for its backing. God being spirit, christ being the word made flesh ect..., and your going to come back at them with the council of nicea, really? so why wouldnt you waste time telling a mormon that their d&c has been changed doctrinally? how many know that
@thedaoofplus1 You brought up the Trinity, not me. It appears to me that you don't even know what you're talking about regarding it seeing that you seem to think the Lectures on Faith is a Trinitarian apologetic. If you don't care about knowing what you're talking about before you talk about it, what does that say about you? At least I try to understand the beliefs of others before I seek to convince them that their beliefs are wrong. Plus, I am not talking to a Mormon here.
@thedaoofplus1 The nature of God, the atonement of Christ, the sufficiency of grace. These three bedrocks of Christian faith is more than sufficient to create a very fruitful conversation with a Mormon individual without the need to bring up things he or she doesn't even believe in. Time is too precious to waste when it comes to these matters.
@thedaoofplus1 As far as creation goes, any Mormon who has been through the temple knows the LDS version of the "creation" story. A "creation" never took place. Rather, Elohim told Jehovah and Michael to go yonder to unorganized eternal matter and organize it into an Earth. It would be more accurate to describe the LDS belief of the origin of the cosmos as an organization rather than a creation. Do Mormons refer to a creation? Sure. But Mormons are also known to equivocate on a lot of things.
@srprimeaux the christ being better is self defeating because you can believe christ is better without having to believe he is God. it takes two seconds to sidestep just like the mormon kid did to the cat with the cross in the video.
@thedaoofplus1 But, Mormons believe Christ is a God. In fact, Mormons believe we all possess a divine nature. As such, no one is "better" than the other (not even Christ and not even Heavenly Father) since we're all equal ontologically. The point is that if Christ is better than we are it is because He has a totally different nature from us. We're human, He's divine. We're created, He's creator. When speaking of Christ as better, it's regarding the quintessential difference between Him and us.
@srprimeaux argue joseph smith, argue the difference in temple work from the torah, bible and the book of mormon. argue the trinity from the book of mormon, argue how one is deemed a false prophet, argue the textual changes from the past hundred years of the doctrine & covenants. ask them to reconcile the differences in jacob 2 and d&c 132, argue that God is spirit. but does jesus being better make jospeph smith any more or less of a prophet to a mormon?
@thedaoofplus1 There are a lot of problems in Mormonism and one can indeed argue from either of those points ... including the nature of God (which is primarily the number one issue that Mormonism completely fails to get right). But for anyone who has encountered Mormons before, they always seem to have an answer for whatever problem one brings to their attention. It's always a "back and forth, I'm right/you're wrong" scenario. It's a matter of making a defense & trusting in God's sovereignty.
@Brucev7 That's a huge deviation from Biblical truth, you're exactly right. However, let me say that they don't believe Jesus is the half-brother of Satan (although that's bad enough). They believe they're biologically related since they have the same parents (i.e., Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother). If two people have the same mother & father, they're related on an ontological basis. Don't let any Mormon try to convince you otherwise.
@srprimeaux Yea, one of H. Father's wives, one of many spirit children. As the 1st born of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. Col 1:15; D&C 93:21
@Brucev7 Cont'd According to official LDS teacher’s man'l, Gospel Principles, 2 of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus C, who was then called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” Abra 3:27,Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1).
Respond to this video... Cont'd According to official LDS teacher’s man'l, Gospel Principles, 2 of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus C, who was then called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” Abra 3:27,Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1).
@Brucev7 No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing. Persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame. But the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and dependent till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, until the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the Great Jehovah will say, ‘The work is done
Wrong! Mormonism doesn't teach we're gods! What's more, it's wrong to say Mormons teach: they only inform about what they know from everything the Lord revealed to Joseph and that's found in Mormon scriptures. Jesus is the Son of God, and only He was worthy to perform the atoning sacrifice for our sins, for He is only the sinless person to have lived on earth: that's the core of Mormonism, based on those scriptures.If you're testifying to something you know, that's not "teaching" but "informing"
@Bernytheplayboy Mormonism teaches that everyone is a spirit son/daughter of Heavenly Parents and thus possesses a divine nature. Just as I am a human being because I have human parents, I would be a god if I am a literal child of divine beings. This is ontology 101, my friend.
@srprimeaux Yeah,according to Mormon scriptures,God is the father of your soul. If you deny that, it'll make you not only in conflict with Mormonism but with the Bible,since Paul himself wrote that God is "the father of our spirits." But none of us are gods nor allowed to become gods unless we fulfill the conditions required in section 132 of "Doctrine and Covenants". ("Doctrine & Covenants" is the name of one of the 3 canonical books of Mormonism.): a total contradiction. So far for ontology.
Getalife311, Amber is the color of your energy....
TheSoulamore 4 weeks ago
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TheSoulamore 1 month ago
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TheSoulamore 1 month ago
Trinitarians believe in a god with three heads & each head has it's own name...father, son & holy ghost
leSavaii 2 months ago
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TheSoulamore 2 months ago
@TheSoulamore yeah and yoiur post was anything but christ-like,get a life chump!
getdownto311 1 month ago
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TheSoulamore 2 months ago
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TheSoulamore 2 months ago
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@1firsvy Yes if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints wasn't true it would of dried up a long time ago sort of like the RLDS . Think they have 100, 000 members .
mollymu1 2 months ago
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TheSoulamore 2 months ago
It says all over the Bible to Praise and worship the king. I feel sorry for this girl. She is lead by the wrong people. She does not praise Jesus.
TheSoulamore 5 months ago
The question should be where did the Book of Mormon Another Testament of Jesus Christ come from .
There is only one answer .
Joseph Smith didn't write it ,
it wasn't written by a group of 150 men as I heard for the first time recently .
It isn't a copy of Spaldings
or the Life of the Hebrews or whatever it's called .
It came to us from our Heavenly Father .
Read it sincerely and you'll know . Nothing else matters.
mollymu1 6 months ago
@mollymu1 True. These people only show their own insecurity otherwise they wouldn´t come here for trolling a faith. Pathetic
dorisfenella 2 months ago
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TheSoulamore 2 months ago
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dorisfenella 2 months ago
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dorisfenella 2 months ago
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@TheSoulamore I am a defender a PRO, I will tell you what you and those silly friends you have, are. You are ANTI, you are a NEGATION,, you don´t have a further purposal than believe blindly in a book to which you do not even honor really. I am sure in the Bible there´s condemnation for what you called me because you lied horribly calling me b**h , Jesus knows your cruel intention. I didn´t lie about you. My church is not God but it helps me to sin less and thx to u I know how much it works !
dorisfenella 2 months ago
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@dorisfenella Yes I think it all boils down to jealously from them and the people who ''claim '' to be an atheist . But I have figured out there is no such thing as an atheist , nobody is that stupid .
mollymu1 2 months ago
Joh 14:6, 10:30 Col 1:13-20
Brucev7 6 months ago
anyone else find it ironic that a "dead end" sign is posted in front of the LDS meeting in the background?
markwalser 7 months ago
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@markwalser No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing. Persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame. But the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and dependent till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, until the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the Great Jehovah will say, ‘The work is done
1firsvy 2 months ago
There is no archeological evidence of anything that is in the book of mormon; battles, coins, people, TEMPLE. The Bible there is so much evidence.
jazzbummer 11 months ago
@jazzbummer There is so much evidence of what, jazzbummer? I haven't seen any convincing evidence for supernatural claims in the bible, and even its natural claims tend to be pretty shakey. Looking at the bible, it is interesting that god never seems to know more about science than the people he is talking to, and his sense of morality is never superior to theirs either. Why is that? And why are you only interested in how science applies to other's faith, and not your own?
SammyHales 11 months ago
@SammyHales Archeological Evidence.
jazzbummer 11 months ago
@jazzbummer So you have no answer. I guess your cricism is as dishonest as your response then.
SammyHales 11 months ago
@SammyHales You brought up morality and science from my comment on archeological evidence. I was agreeing with William F. Albright who said "There can be no doubt that archaeology has confirmed the substantial historicity of Old Testament tradition." Now first, what do you mean by "His (God) sense of morality is never superior to theirs"? Explain because it sounds like you are just quoting someone rather your own research.
jazzbummer 11 months ago
@jazzbummer What I mean is that the morality of the Bible's authors is reflected in the Bible. In the Bronze Age--during which the Old Testament was written--it was morally acceptable to commit genocide, rape, torture, and even to take slaves. Not surprisingly, God spends a lot of time in the Old Testament committing mass murder, or ordering his people to do it. He also gives sanction to all kinds of horrible treatment, including infanticide, rape, torture, and even slavery.
SammyHales 11 months ago
@SammyHales Can you show me in scripture where God "commits" these acts: infanticide, rape, torture, and even slavery. I ask because I used to think the same thing on hearing what other people say and what I want to hear.
jazzbummer 11 months ago
@jazzbummer God senselessly murdered millions of humans and billions of animals in the flood of Noah. God murdered all the first born sons of Egypt. God ordered his followers to murder other people, including children, many times. God stands idly by while these events unfold: Isaiah chapter 13, Jeremiah chapter 49, Hosea chapter 13, Numbers chapter 31, Deuteronomy Chapter 3,
SammyHales 11 months ago
@SammyHales God never murdered anyone. You have to understand the reason for the flood. When He created the heavens and the earth and all living creatures He saw that it was "good". When He created Man He saw it was "very good". In Genesis 6, after the fall, He saw man was very wicked so thats why He did what He did but not all were which we all know of Noah's Ark. The children of Egypt had to be done because pharaoh had to know that God is God and he is not.
jazzbummer 11 months ago
@jazzbummer Wait a minute, first you state that God did not murder anybody, and then you go on to give reasons for why he murdered people. You don't get to throw unwarranted condescention at me for rejecting the logic that an all-loving God spent a great deal of time either killing people directly, or ordering them to be killed by others. I also reject your implied invitation to join you in your religiously inspired sense of self loathing. That is disgusting, and it is the true wickedness here.
SammyHales 11 months ago
@SammyHales There is a difference between killing someone and murder. If someone came in with a gun in your home and tried to harm your family yet you shoot the person to save your family you would not have murdered him, killed him yes, murder no. The sad thing is how you responded to my statement. I don't think adults should stomp their feet over a simple disagreement. I am not loathing in myself only the fact that "I was once lost and now I am saved".
jazzbummer 11 months ago
@SammyHales You have to understand in Gods eyes we are all wicked unless we repent and accept Jesus as Lord. The scripture you mentioned I am sure you have no idea what each book is about? You don't understand that people ruled over a people back then, God wanted to protect His people but at the same time He used Israel as a light to the world so that others from different tribes and nations can come to know the real God. Until you realize that mankind is truly wicked then you wont understand.
jazzbummer 11 months ago
@SammyHales By the way, God also punished Israel for there sin too. Funny you mentioned about the Babylonians in Isaiah 13 because God allowed them to capture the Southern Kingdom (Judah) because of Israel's sin. God in the Old testament we see a God who hates and judges sin. God in the Gospels (Jesus Christ) we see Him being a friend/savior. God in the New Testament (Holy Spirit) we see Him guiding and convicting. But we can see all three in the whole Bible because they are One. God bless you.
jazzbummer 11 months ago
@jazzbummer Albright was a brilliant man, but a great deal of his work has either been overturned or dismissed for lack of evidence. So again, to cirticize Mormons on the basis of any legitimate science is the height of hypocrisy. Don't get me wrong, I encourage the dialogue because smarter Christians will continue to see their superstion is precisely as substantial as that of Mormonsim (which is not at all). Are you sure you want people to abandon faith for rational reasons? He he he! :)
SammyHales 11 months ago
@SammyHales I know you believe that "God is Dead", or maybe to go further in your thinking "He was really never alive". I will never ever change your mind and you can probably guess your never change my mind. If God is real and alive, as I believe He is, then He will speak to you maybe not with an audible voice but reveal something in your life that only you can say to yourself "That had to be God" because God is a personal God who is our Father who loves us. The prove is the cross.
jazzbummer 11 months ago
@jazzbummer There is not a single shred of evidence for supernatural claims in the Bible, and the natural claims are incredibly shakey at best. You have no argument vis-a-vis evidence for religious claims, whether Christian or Mormon.
SammyHales 11 months ago
@SammyHales God created the heavens and earth out of nothing. You ask for evidence, look around you, look above. He is not bound by the law of nature for He is the creator off all. So nature can't explain God, only reveals His power and glory.
jazzbummer 11 months ago
@jazzbummer That is not the subject I was discussing. You seem to believe it is important that archeological evidence does not support Mormonism. Surprisingly, you don't appear to have a problem that it doesn't support Christianity either. So why should Mormons care what you think, and why do you think your fairly tale is superior to theirs? Honestly, Mormonism is a thousand times more logical than Christianity. Mormon god doesnt punish ignorance, for instance, or put Hitler, M. Luther in heaven
SammyHales 11 months ago
@SammyHales "Honestly, Mormonism is a thousand times more logical than Christianity. Mormon god doesnt punish ignorance, for instance, or put Hitler, M. Luther in heaven" God doesn't send us to hell, we do. Christ died so that we can receive life. It's that when we reject Him becomes the problem. The Mormon church is growing because there is no consequences for sin which is dangerous. There is numerous archeological evidence that proves the historical context of the Bible. Go to Israel.
jazzbummer 11 months ago
@jazzbummer What confused rambling nonsense. All you can do is drone on about irrelevent dogma and standard evangelical criticism of mormonism.
SammyHales 11 months ago
@SammyHales Nice try. And all you can do is deny it. Looks like we came to the crossroads. You go one way, I went the other.
jazzbummer 11 months ago
@jazzbummer Wrong. The burden of proof demands that it is for you to make your case. I am not simply denying, I am rejecting your promotion of untestable dogma in lieu of evidence for your position. I also reject the implication that dogma is on equal footing with science and reason in discerning the truth. Finally, it was intellectually dishonest of you to embrace science when you mistakenly thought it supported your cause, but then pretend it isn't important when shown otherwise.
SammyHales 11 months ago
I don't want to be part of any church that has been teaching this girl her beliefs. She's whacked out.
Nepthu 1 year ago
The kid actually managed to make a good argument, which is very rare among Evangelicals. He stated that he could not hope to meet the mormon standard for repentence because it requires that the same sin will not be committed again. The Mormon doctrine is still logically superior because it eliminates Hitler and Manson in Heaven, but it obviously has many problems of its own. I think the problem was the mormon attempt to reform christianity for a more enlightened people. Xianity's not reformable!
SammyHales 1 year ago
@SammyHales
Please explain what part of Mormon Doctrine is logicaly superior. Look up HOTM.org or UTLM.org and you will see that Mormonism is one mans scam that combines masonic ritual, American hyper-nationalism, universalism and the sexual fantasy of their prophet into a non-sensical and immoral hybrid with ZERO historical proof.
Jonathan2342 1 year ago
@Jonathan2342 If you reference my post, you will see that I clearly explained my belief that Mormon doctrine vis-a-vis repentence is logically superior to that of Evangelicals. I even offered my rational for that assessment. I don't believe a discussion on semantics will inform my contention--either way--that religious societies have failed, in modern times, to produce utopias, or even societies that can compete with those that largely reject religious belief.
SammyHales 1 year ago
Weird. It is like watching a believer in leprechauns trying to convince a believer in unicorns that his belief is silly! Understand this: Religion is dying, and none too soon! Atheistic societies have less crime, less war, and more prosperity than any others. Japan and Holland are the future and you morons are destined to the dustheap of history. bye!
SammyHales 1 year ago
@SammyHales
Both examples have religious freedom. Athiest countries are North Korea, China, Cuba and Russia. You can have those.
Jonathan2342 1 year ago
@Jonathan2342 Nobody was calling for an end to religious freedom. The fact of the matter is that a large part of Europe is atheistic. It supports secular societies. And those non-religious societies have much less crime, war, and poverty than religious ones. I will keep countries like Japan, Sweden, and Holland. You bet! Fundamentalist Christians are pulling very hard to keep America less educated than it could be, and the rest of us are tired of you dragging the rest of us down.
SammyHales 1 year ago
@SammyHales
You seem to not understand the difference between Secular and Athiest societies. The ones you mention are all secular - meaning they are neutral in religious matters. Most societies (Including the USA) are secular. Athiest socities take the governmental stance that there is no God and they are mentioned in my last post. Many Christians agree with secularism in society because it allows religious freedom where Athiest societies generally promote worship of the state.
Jonathan2342 1 year ago
Bear in mind that this girl is not a representative of the mormon church. She has learned a lot (like all of us) and still has a lot to learn (like all of us). She's explaining things to the best of her understanding, but clearly has some things to figure out, both in terms of her Savior, and about what her church teaches about Him. It would be silly to construe her thoughts as "official Mormon doctrine".
smcphie 1 year ago
@smcphie I wrote an article related to this issue at mrm[dot]org/official-doctrine --- The Mormon Church has no binding, consistent, official doctrine on what constitutes official doctrine.
aaronshaf2006 1 year ago
@aaronshaf2006
It definitely does. The scriptures as well the words of prophets.
vespergo 1 year ago
I don't understand the point of the whole "do you think Jesus is better than you?" line of questioning. It seems that what the born agains are trying to refute is the possibility that mankind could attain Godhood. And yet, that is unrelated to our current state. Yes, Jesus is infinitely greater than me. But that's not to say that I couldn't one day attain what Jesus has attained. Eternal Increase. Eons from now, I hope to be greater than I am now. At that point, Jesus will be too.
smcphie 1 year ago
the "dead end" sign behind this born again nut-job seems very appropriate
rtardbox 1 year ago
i wonder what happened with this girl
mainstdancer08 1 year ago
It's amazing they are playing Amazing Grace at the pageant when they don't even know the meaning behind grace. This hymn isn't even in their current hymnals.
GraceAlone71 1 year ago
@GraceAlone71 want do you mean we don't know Grace?
BryceisBibleMan 1 year ago
@BryceisBibleMan Your Book of Mormon teaches that grace comes in after all you can do. In other words if you do your best, Jesus will do the rest.
This goes completely against God's Word. We are saved by grace through faith alone, not of ourselves, after nothing we do.
Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"
GraceAlone71 1 year ago
@GraceAlone71 so you say that we don't have to work to geat forgivenise. if we don't do are put than you wold have good and evil people in the same place with God and why wold we need to be her than if that is how it is?
BryceisBibleMan 1 year ago
@BryceisBibleMan I'm not sure exactly whet you asking here. No, we don't have to do "works of repentance" as Mormonism teaches to receive God's forgiveness. God is very clear on this matter, if we repent He is more than willing to forgive the moment we ask.
No one is "good", everyone is a sinner. People will live with God because of what Jesus has done on the cross not because they were "good". They first must repent, and accept Jesus Christ into their hearts.
GraceAlone71 1 year ago
@GraceAlone71 so by you that I can go out and kill 50 people and befor I die I say Christ forgivge me and it is don and I be in the kingdom of God no for Repentnes we need to work for it by fixing the wong we have done.
BryceisBibleMan 1 year ago
this chick's got the Gospel wrong... if you don't hold Christ higher than yourself.... who are you worshiping?!
wolfec 1 year ago
@wolfec the mormons or him?
BryceisBibleMan 1 year ago
@BryceisBibleMan Well, whoever the chick on the left is...
wolfec 1 year ago
@wolfec ok
BryceisBibleMan 1 year ago
How can I get into this ministry next year to share the gospel to Mormons at this pageant
jbuzzell70 1 year ago
the taberknuckle choir in the background drowns out the conversation. Oh well.
awolLDSasap 1 year ago
@aaronshaf2006 Question: Why do you think that we Mormons don't know what's best for us?
lindalds 1 year ago
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@lindalds The best for you is always apparent. You tell everyone. The best you can do on this earth will never allow you into heaven.
awolLDSasap 1 year ago
This is for the coward that left a post and decided to close the account before I could answer-Matthew 21..‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord”, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?” 23Then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers. Repent! evildoer.
2grace4me 1 year ago
"The teachings of Jesus which say to love all other people are not meant to apply to you. " I see they don't apply to you at all. I don't need to leave the church is see how it is outside the church.
2grace4me 1 year ago
I got a really obnoxious email. I have done nothing but answer a question posted in my email. I would be really appreciate it if you kept your opinions to yourself if you don't want an answer.
2grace4me 1 year ago
"It was owed to us"?!?! im screaming in my chair NOOOOO!!! Everyone watching this read romans! oh my goodness read it and pray, what this girl thinks is but the opposite of what the bible teaches.
MrHappiness777 1 year ago
Is there a part 2 to this?
pinheirov 1 year ago
@bernytheplayboy, it looks to me that everyone in this video is practicing their religious freedom. It looks to me like two people freely talking about their religous views. Your argument doesn't seem to hold water. What would you consider the gospel? Blessings!
jal84084 1 year ago
@Bernytheplayboy
With respect, I can't see how what the guy with the cross in this video is doing is at all a "violation of religious freedom". Rather, both the guy and the girl that he's talking to are exercising their freedom of speech to compare and contrast their religious beliefs. Yes, he's trying to convert her, but that's still not violation of any rights (besides, the Mormons do that to). If he was campaigning to outlaw the LDS church or something, then that'd be against religious freed
Doliath 1 year ago
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Bernytheplayboy 1 year ago
Thank you young girl for defending our faith. The true church is: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
2grace4me 1 year ago
@2grace4me
By what criteria are you judging the truthfulness of the LDS Church?
Doliath 1 year ago
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Bernytheplayboy 1 year ago
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Bernytheplayboy 1 year ago
@Bernytheplayboy
I watched the video you mentioned, and I don't think that it necessarily supports your claim that large portions of the Bible that we have today are falsified or distorted. The fact that there were different versions in the past doesn't automatically make what we have today a "false" version.
But, I think you misunderstood my question to 2grace4me. I wasn't asking for proof that the LDS Church was true, rather I want to know the criteria by which she judges its truthfulness.
Doliath 1 year ago
@Doliath I judge the truthfulness of the LDS church by the word of God and by confirmation from the Holy Ghost.
2grace4me 1 year ago
@2grace4me The only problem is that the LDS church teaches doctrine in complete contrast to what God has already revealed in His word. The Holy Ghost will not confirm something in contrast to what God has said. God is not the author of confusion. We can trust God, and He won't change His truth. That good/peaceful feeling in your heart was not the Holy Ghost, it couldn't be because it conflicts with truth. That is why God told us, "He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool."
redboxgift 1 year ago
@2grace4me But if you leave it for whatever reason - watch out! The teachings of Jesus which say to love all other people are not meant to apply to you. And you could be treated by LDS members like you are dirt or worse because Jesus taught people to do tha-- oh, wait... no he didn't!
EmBeesWeb 1 year ago
There is a Heavenly Father, there is a Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior and there is a Holy Ghost.
2grace4me 1 year ago
That poor girl.
walkonking 1 year ago
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lgazzini 1 year ago
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Bernytheplayboy 1 year ago
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Bernytheplayboy 1 year ago
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Cainky 1 year ago
Berny, you are such a hypocrite. You are mad at Aaron for correcting what he sees as an error, and then here you go doing the same thing to him. What makes you the ultimate judge?
lgazzini 1 year ago
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Bernytheplayboy 1 year ago
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Bernytheplayboy 1 year ago
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Bernytheplayboy 1 year ago
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Bernytheplayboy 1 year ago
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Bernytheplayboy 1 year ago
@Bernytheplayboy OK, let's use logic.We all know the 2nd law of thermodynamics refers to entropy or randomness. Somehow enough random molecules met that somehow a single cell structure came to be. And after more random occurrences the multicell structures came to be. The rationality of these complex organisms is based at some point (going back) on randomness.
lgazzini 1 year ago
@Bernytheplayboy How is discussing religion with someone a "violation of religious freedom"? When a Mormon knocks on my door to promote his worldview is he "violating" my religious freedom or is it religious freedom that gives him the legal right to knock on my door with the sole intent of convincing me my religious beliefs are wrong?
Cainky 1 year ago
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Bernytheplayboy 1 year ago
@Bernytheplayboy No its not, thats sharing your opinion, its not like he sat her down in a chair and tortured her until she changed her beliefs. you are being intolerant towards intolerance, which is hypocritical.
philosophizer149 1 year ago
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Bernytheplayboy 1 year ago
@aaronshaf2006 Thanks for your friendly reply; I appreciate that. Now here's my point of view: if Mormons really have been deceived, you needn't worry about them because I don't believe God would condemn anyone for having been deceived, for He knows it wasn't their fault. He would never condemn the victims of a deceit, but only the deceivers tehemselves. He is far smarter than that.
Bernytheplayboy 1 year ago
@Bernytheplayboy Saying that they can't try to convince them their religious views are wrong is also a violation of religious freedom. Duh.
ThornInYrSide 1 year ago
I love "DEAD END" sign right in front of the temple. =) Yes, Mormon temple rites do lead to a "dead end".
GraceAlone71 1 year ago
thats the same logic that mormons point to when they say God has a body. you cant jusy go at them and say that my interpretation of the scripture is more right than yours with out backing it up, and expect them to back their claims. also for the mere fact that the lectures on faith were official and then were taken out of the d&c is a great example to point out to a mormon concerning their religions inconsistency. why argue about their consistencies?
thedaoofplus1 1 year ago
@thedaoofplus1 I've spoken more about the inconsistencies within Mormonism with you than I have with Mormons. When I am speaking with Mormons, I try to keep things as simple as possible because it can become a huge mess. And I never once said (nor hinted) that I approach them with a "my interpretation is better than yours" attitude. I know better than that. When I tell them what I believe, I show them why I believe what I believe and I use Scripture and reason to do it.
srprimeaux 1 year ago
@srprimeaux but apparently you cant use scripture with me?
thedaoofplus1 1 year ago
@thedaoofplus1 If you wish, you can email me. I don't want to use Aaron's video as a springboard to debate the Trinity with you. If you wish to continue discussing a topic that is not related to this video, email me. I'll be more than happy to assist you in whatever you desire from me.
srprimeaux 1 year ago
Owed to us she said?...GOD owes sinners nothing.....Where is the next part bro.
SavedInLouisiana 1 year ago 6
@SavedInLouisiana My friend Eric was filming, not sure why he shut off the camera at that point. I REALLY WISH the whole conversation was recorded. It was INCREDIBLE.
aaronshaf2006 1 year ago 2
@aaronshaf2006 any way of talking you into providing a summary of the rest of the conversation? Some of the highlights? Oh please, please.
redboxgift 1 year ago
@aaronshaf2006 Incredible? I would say embarrassing at best. With apparent great effort and planning, all this Evangelical was really able to offer was: Mormonism isn't fundamentalism Christianity. That is hardly a damning critique. Actually, things that ARENT fundamentalist Christianity are making the future and shaping societies across the globe. It is obvious to responsible and honest observers that Mormonism is not true, but it is still vastly more sophisticated than F.Christianity.
SammyHales 1 year ago
I wonder if the young lady in this video is aware of how much she sounds like a run-of-the-mill practicing Catholic.
EmBeesWeb 1 year ago
What an articulate young woman. She worked pretty hard here, and it might appear that nothing was accomplished. But it was conversations like this that led me out of my ignorance about my faith (I'm not ex-mo, but I am ex-arrogant haha). The seeds of truth have been planted.
carlasue88 1 year ago
As an ex-Mormon, I have never heard anyone say that Jesus isn't any better then us...wow, that one blew me away....Seems like so many of them believe many different things about Jesus....I was told in Sunday School Class one day that Jesus never had any blood....Yeah, get that one....
Keep up the good work for Jesus
carpentersdaughter2 1 year ago
Sharing Grace... Sharing Truth.... Sharing Life... Sharing Jesus!
MORONIANGELOFLIGHT 1 year ago
Keep preaching. I visited you all this Sunday. Now I know why you weren't there. :) This girl was clearly indoctrinated and what I've been finding lately is that it's really hard for many Mormons to understand all out G.R.A.C.E. Unmerited favor. The gift that can't be paid for or work for because Jesus did it all. They have a hard time understanding that. As always its so good to see you your demeanor always stay calm and you to just ask questions that get them to research the Bible.
KakkoiGuy1 1 year ago
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KakkoiGuy1 1 year ago
what does jesus being "better than us" have anything to do with anything when trying to argue the difference of mormanism and christianity? the mormon kid was way better prepared for the argument and way more rooted in their principles. the cat with the cross got schooled. heshouold rethink his motive for trying to witness to the mormons. trying to be right is no cause worth a fight.
thedaoofplus1 1 year ago
@thedaoofplus1 Because Jesus is God & hence better than us. Mormonism teaches we're all the same ontologically (we're gods by nature or the gods are men by nature). That's the difference being argued.
srprimeaux 1 year ago
@srprimeaux mormons also believe in the attonement, they believe christ created the heavens and the earth etc... arguing the trinity i can understand. arguing that christ is better seems to lead into an " i'm w\right your wrong" argument that plays a self defeating role in the over all doctrinal debate.
thedaoofplus1 1 year ago
@thedaoofplus1 Mormonism doesn't teach a creation at all, actually. The gods, according to Mormonism, merely organized eternal existing matter into earth-like planets for their spirit-children to dwell on. And this is a "I'm right/you're wrong" debate. It's always been that way. Nor do I see how the argument that Christ is God and hence better (ontologically) is self-defeating.
srprimeaux 1 year ago
@srprimeaux the book of mormon does not teach creation, but their books on mormon doctrine do, and they believe it. start that debate with one of them and find out. their books on mormon doctrine have sidesteps to christ being God. they believe that christ is sperate and can speak for God. Thats why i say argue the trinity, atleast you can prove from their earlier writing that they believed in the trinity.
thedaoofplus1 1 year ago
@thedaoofplus1 When it comes to Mormon doctrine, especially theology, you'll come to realize that the Book of Mormon doesn't teach Mormon theology - at least, not the current LDS belief. The Book of Mormon describes God is a modalistic sense, not in a pluralistic sense that modern Mormonism does. And, to my knowledge, Mormonism never taught the Trinity. In fact, Joseph Smith said all Christian creeds were abominable (which would include the Trinitarian creed).
srprimeaux 1 year ago
@srprimeaux i already realized that years ago which is why sited the books of mormon doctrine. and if you check out older videos on this channel(the prophecies of joseph smith, by james walker 40 minutes in) you will see when and how they believed in the trinity. up until 1921 they believed that the Godhead consisted of the Father, the son and the holy spirit. God being spirit, Christ being the body, and the holy spirit being the mind of them both.
thedaoofplus1 1 year ago
@thedaoofplus1 That's not the Trinity, though. And any perusal through LDS.org on the subject of the Trinity will reveal the LDS disagreement of such a theological view. Joseph Smith was clear in his testimony that all the Christian creeds were abominable.
srprimeaux 1 year ago
@srprimeaux please excuse my ignorance. but will you please explain the difference between a triune Godhead and the trinity? also will you please explain what lds.org in 2010 has anything to do with what was taught up until 1921? i also understand that joseph smith preached differently, is it your argument that mormonism is consistent?
thedaoofplus1 1 year ago
@thedaoofplus1 The Trinity is defined as one God in nature who is three in His person. Do you have evidence that this was the LDS view of God at any point in its history ... especially in light of Smith's testimony? I'm talking about something official. And it was never my argument that Mormonism is consistent, but in order for that to be true in this case you will have to show me an official teaching of the Trinity from within Mormonism.
srprimeaux 1 year ago
@srprimeaux how bout you look at the video i suggested. just go to the video drop down menu for this page,and then go to page 2. click the title of the video i gave you, and then go to the time in the video i suggested. the teaching of a triune godhead was part of the d&c up until 1921. you will get to see it and everything.
thedaoofplus1 1 year ago
@thedaoofplus1 I've watched the relevant clip and I am familiar with what is said in the Lectures on Faith. But what's said within the Lectures on Faith is both inconsistent with LDS theology (past and present) and Christian theology (i.e., the Trinity). There are three persons within the Trinity while the Lectures on Faith Q&A states there are two. That's not the Trinity nor is it a triune view of God.
srprimeaux 1 year ago
@srprimeaux again. i am not arguing the consistency of the mormonism. I am not arguing the consistency of the lectures on faith. what i am arguing is that lecture 5 page 53 teaches a triune Godhead. the inconsistency is exactly why it was removed in 1921. and no matter the inconsistency it was part of the D&C for over 80 yrs, i.e. doctrine. and honestly if you are arguing with a mormon this passage, and the inconsistencies that go along with it are pearls as far as leading arguments.
thedaoofplus1 1 year ago
@thedaoofplus1 I don't see a triune God when reading the Lectures on Faith. In fact, it says there are two persons (the Father and the Son) and the Holy Spirit is the mind of both. That's not a trinity. That's more like a duality. So to use this as a proof that the LDS Church was once Trinitarian is not very convincing.
srprimeaux 1 year ago
@srprimeaux what is the point of your argument? i am failing to see a common thread. are you saying the facts arent the facts because mormanism is inconsistent, and the facts should make it consistent? are you areguing that the theology is or should be the same as what the books state? what biblical basis are you coming from concerning the trinity? what verse says that God, Christ, and the holy spirit are three seperate persons within one trinity?
thedaoofplus1 1 year ago
@thedaoofplus1 The fact is that Joseph Smith's view of God obviously fluctuated and the only sure thing we can go by is what is official (i.e., his "First" vision). That is what I use when I approach Mormons. I don't see the point in bringing up a theological viewpoint that is not official. And there's no single verse that states the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct & yet one in nature. It's what the entire panoply of Scripture reveals, though.
srprimeaux 1 year ago
@srprimeaux Please see my article on this issue at mrm[dot]org[slash]official-doctrine
aaronshaf2006 1 year ago
@aaronshaf2006 I understand where you're coming from, but sometimes one doesn't have the time to delve into every little nook and cranny of Mormonism when talking to individual Mormons. Plus one must use discernment because there are times when some Mormons would love to drag someone down into a seemingly endless array of LDS beliefs and opinions of history resulting in a seemingly fruitless discussion without any progress being made or issue being addressed.
srprimeaux 1 year ago
@srprimeaux if you arent prepared or willing to dive into the nooks and crannies, then why talk to them? if you know what you are talking about it doesnt matter what road they try to lead you down, especially if you can refute them with their own doctrine and maybe get them curious enough to research their churches history and writings that they dont learn.
thedaoofplus1 1 year ago
@thedaoofplus1 I don't need to get into the depths of Mormon history and bring up every single opinion of an LDS leader to have a conversation with a Mormon and I seriously doubt you do this yourself.
srprimeaux 1 year ago
@srprimeaux you're right, i dont bring up every opinion. i just bring up the ones that contradict themselves. i try to stick mostly to the bible, the book of mormon, and the d&c. i wait for them to bring up other teachings before i bring them up myself.
thedaoofplus1 1 year ago
@srprimeaux thats the same logic that mormons point to when they say God has a body. you cant jusy go at them and say that my interpretation of the scripture is more right than yours with out backing it up, and expect them to back their claims. also for the mere fact that the lectures on faith were official and then were taken out of the d&c is a great example to point out to a mormon concerning their religions inconsistency. why argue about their consistencies?
thedaoofplus1 1 year ago
@thedaoofplus1 I don't.
srprimeaux 1 year ago
@srprimeaux there are even inconsistencies about the first vision depending on what accout you read from which church leader. how is the lectures on faith not official? and how do you come to the revelation that the trinity is three seperate personages and yet one in nature if there are no verses pointing you in that direction? hoe does your trinity differ from the one described in the lectures on faith lecture 5 page 53. not the q&a but page 53? how can you prove that difference?
thedaoofplus1 1 year ago
@thedaoofplus1 The Lectures on Faith is not recognized as official LDS doctrine to the modern Latter-day Saint. So why would I even bring that up? There are bigger fish to fry, thedaoofplus1. If you would read the Athanasian & Nicean creeds, you'll familiarize yourself with the orthodox teaching of the Trinity and see how it in no way correlates to what is written within the Lectures on Faith.
srprimeaux 1 year ago
@srprimeaux i personally dont care about the nicean creed, nor did i ask you about the nicean creed. you would be hard pressed to use the nicean creed with a mormon aswell. the lectures on faith pg 53 atleast can draw on biblical scripture for its backing. God being spirit, christ being the word made flesh ect..., and your going to come back at them with the council of nicea, really? so why wouldnt you waste time telling a mormon that their d&c has been changed doctrinally? how many know that
thedaoofplus1 1 year ago
@thedaoofplus1 You brought up the Trinity, not me. It appears to me that you don't even know what you're talking about regarding it seeing that you seem to think the Lectures on Faith is a Trinitarian apologetic. If you don't care about knowing what you're talking about before you talk about it, what does that say about you? At least I try to understand the beliefs of others before I seek to convince them that their beliefs are wrong. Plus, I am not talking to a Mormon here.
srprimeaux 1 year ago
@srprimeaux what are the bigger fish in your opinion?
thedaoofplus1 1 year ago
@thedaoofplus1 The nature of God, the atonement of Christ, the sufficiency of grace. These three bedrocks of Christian faith is more than sufficient to create a very fruitful conversation with a Mormon individual without the need to bring up things he or she doesn't even believe in. Time is too precious to waste when it comes to these matters.
srprimeaux 1 year ago
@thedaoofplus1 As far as creation goes, any Mormon who has been through the temple knows the LDS version of the "creation" story. A "creation" never took place. Rather, Elohim told Jehovah and Michael to go yonder to unorganized eternal matter and organize it into an Earth. It would be more accurate to describe the LDS belief of the origin of the cosmos as an organization rather than a creation. Do Mormons refer to a creation? Sure. But Mormons are also known to equivocate on a lot of things.
srprimeaux 1 year ago
@srprimeaux the christ being better is self defeating because you can believe christ is better without having to believe he is God. it takes two seconds to sidestep just like the mormon kid did to the cat with the cross in the video.
thedaoofplus1 1 year ago
@thedaoofplus1 But, Mormons believe Christ is a God. In fact, Mormons believe we all possess a divine nature. As such, no one is "better" than the other (not even Christ and not even Heavenly Father) since we're all equal ontologically. The point is that if Christ is better than we are it is because He has a totally different nature from us. We're human, He's divine. We're created, He's creator. When speaking of Christ as better, it's regarding the quintessential difference between Him and us.
srprimeaux 1 year ago
@srprimeaux argue joseph smith, argue the difference in temple work from the torah, bible and the book of mormon. argue the trinity from the book of mormon, argue how one is deemed a false prophet, argue the textual changes from the past hundred years of the doctrine & covenants. ask them to reconcile the differences in jacob 2 and d&c 132, argue that God is spirit. but does jesus being better make jospeph smith any more or less of a prophet to a mormon?
thedaoofplus1 1 year ago
@thedaoofplus1 There are a lot of problems in Mormonism and one can indeed argue from either of those points ... including the nature of God (which is primarily the number one issue that Mormonism completely fails to get right). But for anyone who has encountered Mormons before, they always seem to have an answer for whatever problem one brings to their attention. It's always a "back and forth, I'm right/you're wrong" scenario. It's a matter of making a defense & trusting in God's sovereignty.
srprimeaux 1 year ago
@srprimeaux The main deviation in my opinion is their belief Jesus Christ is the half brother of Satan.
Brucev7 6 months ago
@Brucev7 That's a huge deviation from Biblical truth, you're exactly right. However, let me say that they don't believe Jesus is the half-brother of Satan (although that's bad enough). They believe they're biologically related since they have the same parents (i.e., Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother). If two people have the same mother & father, they're related on an ontological basis. Don't let any Mormon try to convince you otherwise.
srprimeaux 6 months ago
@srprimeaux Yea, one of H. Father's wives, one of many spirit children. As the 1st born of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. Col 1:15; D&C 93:21
Brucev7 6 months ago
@Brucev7 Cont'd According to official LDS teacher’s man'l, Gospel Principles, 2 of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus C, who was then called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” Abra 3:27,Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1).
Brucev7 6 months ago
Respond to this video... Cont'd According to official LDS teacher’s man'l, Gospel Principles, 2 of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus C, who was then called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” Abra 3:27,Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1).
Brucev7 6 months ago
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@Brucev7 No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing. Persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame. But the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and dependent till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, until the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the Great Jehovah will say, ‘The work is done
1firsvy 2 months ago
Wrong! Mormonism doesn't teach we're gods! What's more, it's wrong to say Mormons teach: they only inform about what they know from everything the Lord revealed to Joseph and that's found in Mormon scriptures. Jesus is the Son of God, and only He was worthy to perform the atoning sacrifice for our sins, for He is only the sinless person to have lived on earth: that's the core of Mormonism, based on those scriptures.If you're testifying to something you know, that's not "teaching" but "informing"
Bernytheplayboy 1 year ago
@Bernytheplayboy Mormonism teaches that everyone is a spirit son/daughter of Heavenly Parents and thus possesses a divine nature. Just as I am a human being because I have human parents, I would be a god if I am a literal child of divine beings. This is ontology 101, my friend.
srprimeaux 1 year ago
@srprimeaux Yeah,according to Mormon scriptures,God is the father of your soul. If you deny that, it'll make you not only in conflict with Mormonism but with the Bible,since Paul himself wrote that God is "the father of our spirits." But none of us are gods nor allowed to become gods unless we fulfill the conditions required in section 132 of "Doctrine and Covenants". ("Doctrine & Covenants" is the name of one of the 3 canonical books of Mormonism.): a total contradiction. So far for ontology.
Bernytheplayboy 1 year ago