Lordship salvation brings up a debate because some go as far as to say you wont sin anymore (taken from 1 John). Obviously this never happens but I do believe Jesus has the power to transform our lives (take away anger issues, addictions, etc). But we all still sin in thought and deed.
"Repent and believe" implies that what we need to repent from is disbelief. It seems that LS folks are saying, "Repent from drinking, immoral sex, etc."
Disbelief is the only Sin, with a capital S. The other immoral actions are symptoms of the big S. It is when we doubt the Justification that Christ did on the cross, then that is disbelief. When we focus on the "evidence" of our works, we take our eyes off the presupposition that we are justified by the cross.
God never changes completely at new birth. Because Romans 12 :1,2 declares we are renewed in the spirit of our mind, change. New birth is not change you are made new creation perfect Believers given the Spirit can have little of Rom 12: 1,2 are they saved.? Is Jesus their Lord.? How anyone remembers all their sin to repent is a great mystery. If you say general repentance you change meaning.Repentance is a gift of God.New birth makes Jesus Lord not behavior. You are bought with a price.
Does anyone find it odd that the singlemost important doctrine in Christianity...the criteria by which one obtains eternal life...can even be debated in the first place? By intellignet, learned theologians? I'm just a little confused why God would leave any ambiguity whatsoever about this issue, let alone the amount of amiguity that leads to a reasonable debate.
@cbat. Where in Scripture do you find them heretics? You can't find what they teach as heretical. If you can't see that then you are blind my friend and you've got itching ears. Repent and believe the one true gospel!
White and MacArthur are both wolves in sheeps clothing, White just proved he is a works salvation teacher a heretic in the first degree, what do you expect he is a Calvinist
@cbat36 neither arminians or calvinists believe in salvation by works, if you are saved, why mock your brethren? They believe faith is a gift from God and that God commands all to repent and believe, that when he saves he gives a faith that produces good works, where is the heresy?
@MartyMcflyMG your wrong they both do, Arminians believe if your not good enogh you can lose your salvation, (even though the real Arminius did not believe that) and the Calvinist believe's if your not good enough well then you never were saved in the first place, both dont believe in eternal security, I do we are saved by believing in him are works have nothing to do with it, except they help in rewards in this life and the next.
A homerun! White really knocked it out of the park with his response here. I've also had to study up on this issue because I was told a favorite pastor of mine--Paul Washer--is a >gasp!< Lordship Salvationist. After conducting the research I discovered that Washer is simply a biblical Christian calling on believers to live biblically. White clarified his position well and yes, biblical Christians have to reject the cheap-grace teachers and find a church where the full counsel of God is taught.
Yes I have listened to the anti lordship messages what I have heard don't say that you just ask Jesus in your heart and live like hell. The problem they say is that Lordship Salvation teaches that after asking Christ in you heart you should not have struggles with sin, or your not really saved.That is what is not biblical about it.
If I had freewill, I would simply will myself to live forever and by the decree of my will, I would never die. If I had freewill, I would jump up and fly like superman by the decree of my will. If I had freewill, I would redeem myself apart from Christ, by the mere decree of my will. That is....if I had freewill. There is one little problem. Human will is not free. It has limitations. Otherwise, those in Hell would leave. if I had freewill, I would be sovereign. Only God has freewill.
The question is not what you call it, the question is whether or not the ability to repent is a Gift of God. It is only the suffering and death of Jesus that justifies those He intended to save. Our repentance is wrought by His Chastening Hand, not by our own will. This is the work of Sanctification. Here, White was not clear - How does one repent? How is Jesus the LORD? Again, the problem is lack of clarity. White does not explain it clearly and it leads to confusion.
@diligentile Yes, I would think they would from nearly all I've heard from both of them. But phrases like; "The Gospel is a call to obedience" and "non-repentant Salvation", are easily spun out of context and confusing. When obedience and repentance are the fruit of Salvation not the means of Salvation. It is theologically irresponsible to throw phrases out like that without clarification. "It is God who works in us both to will and to do of His Good Pleasure". This needs to be made more clear.
i heard alot( i dont know if all) of LS believers use the NIV Bible.....you should know that Bible removes the name "Jesus" in 38 places, removes "hell" 40 times, and completely removes the words "Godhead" and "sodomite"...atleast 65'000 words are removed or changed....BUT EVEN MORE INTERESTING: Zandervan Publishing published it, which is owned by Harper Collins, who also publishes the satanic bible!!!! just a heads up people...luv yall
The term "repentance" must first be defined. It does no good to argue with both sides using a different definition of the same word.
Repent:
Webster's Dictionary- "1: to feel sorry for, 2: to feel such regret over as to change one's mind."
When Jesus commands us to repent, is it not a call to change our minds and attitudes? Do we not believe that God works THROUGH us, through our willingness to be conformed to Him? It is not US that changes our lives but God Almighty through our repentance.
Awesome. You've got to appreciate the scholarship of James White. He's very careful in what he does. I actually thought he espoused the easy beliefism view, but I didn't have a correct understanding of easy beleifism. I don't agree one can become an atheist, die an atheist, and still be saved. Thanks for the clarification diligentile.
Luke 13:2-3 Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse <b>sinners</b> than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
- the context is clearly one of repenting from sin. Please don't take away from scripture.
A professor is someone who has given the Lord, lip service & made a profession of faith but there's been no change in one's life. For all practical purposes his faith is dead . JAMES2;14-18 The Scriptural balance between the 2 extremes he says show me thy faith w/o thy works & I will show thee my faith by my works.
In Acts chapter 16;31 when that Philippian jailer ask, how he can be save? Paul & Silas said, Believe on the LORD Jesus Christ & thou shalt be saved. Don't try to separate His Saviourship from His Lordship. How are we save? We're save by placing our faith in the LORD Jesus Christ. Period, faith alone,but the kind of faith that truly save is the kind of faith that will manifest itself in a holy life! It's the difference between a professor & a posessor.
And you got this 2 armies coming from either extreme, and they're both arm w/ their proof text. And personally, I think both extremes are wrong! I think the Scriptural view point is in the balance between those 2 extremes- it's a balance! I think 1 camp has made a mistake by trying to separate Jesus christ from His Lordship. It's a mistake! He is the LORD Jesus Christ! That's His identity! That's who He is!
nd now, we've got this silly controversy in the Church over the Lordship of Jesus Christ, And the question is; Can you receive Jesus Christ as Saviour w/o also receiving Him as Lord? Is Lordship a requirement of salvation? Well, you've got people at one end of the spectrum who are saying, all you have to do is believe because salvation is absolutely free. They say, first you receive Him as Saviour then later you make Him Lord.......................
@reyldeguz you have to balance it.. if someone is truely saved, there will be eveidence of it in them.. but it dont mean that there gonna be batting 1000 every day also..
Believed in God is the requirement for salvation. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be save. The Bible says, it's not church membership, it's not catechism, it's not confirmation, it's not baptism, it's not keeping the law. It's trusting in the LORD Jesus Christ & His saving work on Calvary. Period.-Faith alone, PLus nothing minus nothing. BUT & here's the BALANCE, the kind of faith that truly saves is the kind of faith that will reflect itself in the quality of your life!
Faith without works is dead just like the dead sea because living faith always works its way out in your life in the form of good works, it's not salvation by works but it's a salvation that works.
repentance means to rethink, or change of mind.. you go from not caring about your sin, to hating the fact that you have sin.. we all still sin... no one can become perfect.. even christians struggle in sin.,.. but a true christian tries to have victory over it, and a non christian dont care that they even do it.. its not a big deal to them.. it not like the "murdered" anyone..
Repentance is a change of mind that leads to believing the gospel. You can repent and not be saved, but you must repent. I don't doubt that. I don't disregard His Lordship, I do disregard Lordship Salvation though because it teaches a false gospel of works salvation. Easy believism is a slam to those who believe we are saved by faith in Jesus work on the cross alone without works and saying that we teach salvation is too easy. Well, God made it that way, not me or any other man.
Mr White is not listening to what the LS preachers are saying. Repenting does not save you. Turning from your sin does not save you. Christ saves you. Keeping the law does not save you.
Yes I do believe in not sinning but we all know we all do. We must call on the Lord to save us from our sin. And remember the Lord Always gives the elect a path to flee from sin.
Let's remember ALL our works are nothing but dirty rags.
Lordship salvation, Lordship schmalvation. Just call it true salvation, i.e., God sanctifies those whom he justifies. If there is no fruit or repentance whatsoever, then there is surely no true, saving faith, only a false, dead faith.
I don't think any proponent of LS even REMOTELY believes that it is the CAUSE of their salvation, but that it is the EFFECT of their salvation and the outward evidence of it. It saddens me to see such attacks on the saints.
And I wouldn't even consider myself to necessarily be an advocate of LS, however, I will say that the most edifying sermons I have seen have come from those within the camp.
And I've been staying out of all the bickering, but I've been extremely frustrated by what, by all appearances, seems to be a deliberate misrepresentation of what LS even means. And some people seem to be taking their "theology" to idolatrous levels.
The one thing I always think of especially when many define LS as works i.e. must overcome every sin to make Christ Lord and thus saved, I always wander, does not people realize LS is often advocated by Calvinists? Total Depravity teaches that man under the wieght of sin will never choose or even have the ability to choose salvation let alone overcome sins to make Christ Lord!
I don't get it either daveme....He chose us, so EVERYTHING afterwards, works or not, are all *after* the fact of salvation. To say that a Calvinist teaching LS is teaching works-based salvation just seems silly to me.
I was having this very conversation on another thread. As a Calvinist, not even our own "choice" for Christ was of our own doing! So yeah...Him saving us is the first thing that happens, before works even enter into the picture!...I don't know what people don't get about that :P
@skintightpotato Sharing with a friend the other night...to over come sins to make Christ Lord...would it not make sense to say you are making your self Lord by overcoming sin? At a IFB college, one day something hit me-aty least those I knew(and do understand not all are always this way)-seems the one thought came to mind was they say they are saved by grace and act like they are saved by works(and sometimes, God uses people worst than you to show you how bad you are. Read Galatians on that
The one thing nthat always comes to mind to me is do non Lordship advocates confess that Christ is not their God but still going to heaven? Sometimes I will ask if they agree we really do not have to love the Lord our God with all our might.
Of course when bring this understanding I will usually get one of a couple actions including back pedaling and re-redefining LS
Thanks for the video. I've read through Phil Johnson's TeamPyro postings on the Lordship Salvation debate and it was very imformative.
The problem that we've had recently though is people in the "Reformed" camp believing that the idea of MacArthur's Lordship Salvation isn't anything other than Roman Catholic teachings on Justification. I don't see it personally, but then again, I haven't read any of their heroes Gordon Clark or John Robbins yet.
@Raada77 Evidently you haven't read Luther or Calvin either. The Roman Catholic position is that Christ's righteousness is infused. In other words, the Holy Spirit works IN us to help us do good works of obedience. Based on this obedience we are justified. The biblical and Protestant view is that God imputes our sins to Jesus and His righteousness to us. That is the exchange. It is not something done in us but wholly outside of us. Rome confuses the fruit with the root or cause with effect.
I pray you stay away from the likes of Redbeetle and his crew. They strain out a gnat and swallow a camel. They profess sound theology in parts, but deny it in their tongue and attitude. I'm hoping you are different. I'm hoping they can become different.
I know the difference between infused and imputed. So does MacArthur, Sproul, and Piper who Redbeetle and crew deem as heretical false teachers. So very sad.
@Blogrich55, Straw man -- no LS proponent denies "alien, imputed righteousness". What IS denied is that this imputed, alien righteousness will fail to produce good works. What is also denied is that this imputed and alien righteousness is applied to those who do not despise and repent of their sins. See Westminster Shorter Catechism questions 85-88 in particular. Notice the use of the word REPENTANCE.
@stegokitty And if you say that those who do not promote LS do not believe that good works follow from those who are justified by grace you hare trotted out a straw man. If you also believe that only LSist believe Jesus is our Lord and Savior you have brought out another straw man.
The very fact that Calvinists stress the sovereignty of God should show they stress His lordship for that is what a sovereign is...He is LORD. One thing needs to be clear in all of this--
#2. What we need to have clear is the Arminians like Bill Bright are the ones who deny Jesus must be BOTH Lord and Savior. Also, the favorite whipping boy of the LSist is the DAMNABLE doctrine of decisional regeneration is NOT taught by those Calvinists who do not tout so-called Lordship Salvation.
Jesus is either Lord or NOT Savior. Period! Now we may have fuit the size of a grape and not a watermellon but we will have fruit. One last thing, bad fruit does NOT negate the good!
@Blogrich55 - I'm afraid you're mixing up all sorts of things that have nothing to do with LS. The on-LS folks are Dispensationalists, who believe in the so-called "carnal Christian" doctrine, and those who THINK they're Reformed but are not.
Not sure why you included anything about bad fruit negating the good. No one has said otherwise.
@stegokitty: "The on-LS folks are Dispensationalists, who believe in the so-called "carnal Christian" doctrine, and those who THINK they're Reformed but are not."
Could you explain this for me? I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying here.
@BlogRich55, if this is so, then what's the problem with LS? LS is simply the Reformed view of salvation. God saves sinners UNTO good works. Works have nothing to do with justification, but if there is no good works, there is no justification. If there is no perseverance, there is no justification. That's all LS is saying.
Lordship salvation brings up a debate because some go as far as to say you wont sin anymore (taken from 1 John). Obviously this never happens but I do believe Jesus has the power to transform our lives (take away anger issues, addictions, etc). But we all still sin in thought and deed.
jebenn23 2 weeks ago
If someone says "repent and pay your taxes", then that implies that we should repent of tax evasion.
RomansGalatians 1 month ago
"Repent and believe" implies that what we need to repent from is disbelief. It seems that LS folks are saying, "Repent from drinking, immoral sex, etc."
Disbelief is the only Sin, with a capital S. The other immoral actions are symptoms of the big S. It is when we doubt the Justification that Christ did on the cross, then that is disbelief. When we focus on the "evidence" of our works, we take our eyes off the presupposition that we are justified by the cross.
RomansGalatians 1 month ago
God never changes completely at new birth. Because Romans 12 :1,2 declares we are renewed in the spirit of our mind, change. New birth is not change you are made new creation perfect Believers given the Spirit can have little of Rom 12: 1,2 are they saved.? Is Jesus their Lord.? How anyone remembers all their sin to repent is a great mystery. If you say general repentance you change meaning.Repentance is a gift of God.New birth makes Jesus Lord not behavior. You are bought with a price.
polopowers1 2 months ago
Does anyone find it odd that the singlemost important doctrine in Christianity...the criteria by which one obtains eternal life...can even be debated in the first place? By intellignet, learned theologians? I'm just a little confused why God would leave any ambiguity whatsoever about this issue, let alone the amount of amiguity that leads to a reasonable debate.
mjt532 2 months ago
@cbat. Where in Scripture do you find them heretics? You can't find what they teach as heretical. If you can't see that then you are blind my friend and you've got itching ears. Repent and believe the one true gospel!
igniteJC 3 months ago
@igniteJC Galatians chapter 1 read it sometime, and dont be so proud that is a sin :)
cbat36 2 weeks ago
White and MacArthur are both wolves in sheeps clothing, White just proved he is a works salvation teacher a heretic in the first degree, what do you expect he is a Calvinist
cbat36 4 months ago
@cbat36 neither arminians or calvinists believe in salvation by works, if you are saved, why mock your brethren? They believe faith is a gift from God and that God commands all to repent and believe, that when he saves he gives a faith that produces good works, where is the heresy?
MartyMcflyMG 1 month ago
@MartyMcflyMG your wrong they both do, Arminians believe if your not good enogh you can lose your salvation, (even though the real Arminius did not believe that) and the Calvinist believe's if your not good enough well then you never were saved in the first place, both dont believe in eternal security, I do we are saved by believing in him are works have nothing to do with it, except they help in rewards in this life and the next.
cbat36 2 weeks ago
A homerun! White really knocked it out of the park with his response here. I've also had to study up on this issue because I was told a favorite pastor of mine--Paul Washer--is a >gasp!< Lordship Salvationist. After conducting the research I discovered that Washer is simply a biblical Christian calling on believers to live biblically. White clarified his position well and yes, biblical Christians have to reject the cheap-grace teachers and find a church where the full counsel of God is taught.
GaryPeterson67 4 months ago
Yes I have listened to the anti lordship messages what I have heard don't say that you just ask Jesus in your heart and live like hell. The problem they say is that Lordship Salvation teaches that after asking Christ in you heart you should not have struggles with sin, or your not really saved.That is what is not biblical about it.
dfleha 5 months ago
easy believism is a false gospel
DIVINESOTERIOLOGY 9 months ago
@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY believing is easy you fool, what's so hard about it? if it must be hard you obviously are a legalist and That is a False Gospel!
cbat36 2 weeks ago
Wilkin exposed that James White is unsaved.
jacksmack77 11 months ago
If I had freewill, I would simply will myself to live forever and by the decree of my will, I would never die. If I had freewill, I would jump up and fly like superman by the decree of my will. If I had freewill, I would redeem myself apart from Christ, by the mere decree of my will. That is....if I had freewill. There is one little problem. Human will is not free. It has limitations. Otherwise, those in Hell would leave. if I had freewill, I would be sovereign. Only God has freewill.
VeryImagesozo 1 year ago
Let's look at these two scriptures.
This one below is a popular scripture people use for salvation.
Is it salvation or temporal judgment?
Let's use it as a salvation verse as that's how its mostly used and see what happens.
Luke 13:5
"...but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."
Now lets look at John 3:16
"that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"
OK, so what does a person have to do to not perish?
"except ye repent" = except ye believe
onlineministries 1 year ago
The question is not what you call it, the question is whether or not the ability to repent is a Gift of God. It is only the suffering and death of Jesus that justifies those He intended to save. Our repentance is wrought by His Chastening Hand, not by our own will. This is the work of Sanctification. Here, White was not clear - How does one repent? How is Jesus the LORD? Again, the problem is lack of clarity. White does not explain it clearly and it leads to confusion.
RefutingSkellyism 1 year ago
@RefutingSkellyism James White and MacArthur would both say that repentance is a gift from God.
diligentile 1 year ago
@diligentile Yes, I would think they would from nearly all I've heard from both of them. But phrases like; "The Gospel is a call to obedience" and "non-repentant Salvation", are easily spun out of context and confusing. When obedience and repentance are the fruit of Salvation not the means of Salvation. It is theologically irresponsible to throw phrases out like that without clarification. "It is God who works in us both to will and to do of His Good Pleasure". This needs to be made more clear.
RefutingSkellyism 1 year ago
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i heard alot( i dont know if all) of LS believers use the NIV Bible.....you should know that Bible removes the name "Jesus" in 38 places, removes "hell" 40 times, and completely removes the words "Godhead" and "sodomite"...atleast 65'000 words are removed or changed....BUT EVEN MORE INTERESTING: Zandervan Publishing published it, which is owned by Harper Collins, who also publishes the satanic bible!!!! just a heads up people...luv yall
MrDddlll 1 year ago
The term "repentance" must first be defined. It does no good to argue with both sides using a different definition of the same word.
Repent:
Webster's Dictionary- "1: to feel sorry for, 2: to feel such regret over as to change one's mind."
When Jesus commands us to repent, is it not a call to change our minds and attitudes? Do we not believe that God works THROUGH us, through our willingness to be conformed to Him? It is not US that changes our lives but God Almighty through our repentance.
pmoores21 1 year ago
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Awesome. You've got to appreciate the scholarship of James White. He's very careful in what he does. I actually thought he espoused the easy beliefism view, but I didn't have a correct understanding of easy beleifism. I don't agree one can become an atheist, die an atheist, and still be saved. Thanks for the clarification diligentile.
Gernatch 1 year ago
Comment removed
Gernatch 1 year ago
Luke 13:2-3 Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse <b>sinners</b> than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
- the context is clearly one of repenting from sin. Please don't take away from scripture.
RobertMOdell 1 year ago
THE LORDSHIP CHURCH I WENT TO HAD
TAKEN RADICAL SUPER SELF SANCTIFICATION TOO FAR..
THE FREE GRACE POSITION DOES NOT TEACH THAT
YOU CAN JUST DO WHAT YOU WISH BUT, THAT GOD
IN LOVE DISCIPLINES US IN HOLINESS...
m1tchish 1 year ago
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A professor is someone who has given the Lord, lip service & made a profession of faith but there's been no change in one's life. For all practical purposes his faith is dead . JAMES2;14-18 The Scriptural balance between the 2 extremes he says show me thy faith w/o thy works & I will show thee my faith by my works.
reyldeguz 1 year ago
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In Acts chapter 16;31 when that Philippian jailer ask, how he can be save? Paul & Silas said, Believe on the LORD Jesus Christ & thou shalt be saved. Don't try to separate His Saviourship from His Lordship. How are we save? We're save by placing our faith in the LORD Jesus Christ. Period, faith alone,but the kind of faith that truly save is the kind of faith that will manifest itself in a holy life! It's the difference between a professor & a posessor.
reyldeguz 1 year ago
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And you got this 2 armies coming from either extreme, and they're both arm w/ their proof text. And personally, I think both extremes are wrong! I think the Scriptural view point is in the balance between those 2 extremes- it's a balance! I think 1 camp has made a mistake by trying to separate Jesus christ from His Lordship. It's a mistake! He is the LORD Jesus Christ! That's His identity! That's who He is!
reyldeguz 1 year ago
nd now, we've got this silly controversy in the Church over the Lordship of Jesus Christ, And the question is; Can you receive Jesus Christ as Saviour w/o also receiving Him as Lord? Is Lordship a requirement of salvation? Well, you've got people at one end of the spectrum who are saying, all you have to do is believe because salvation is absolutely free. They say, first you receive Him as Saviour then later you make Him Lord.......................
reyldeguz 1 year ago
@reyldeguz you have to balance it.. if someone is truely saved, there will be eveidence of it in them.. but it dont mean that there gonna be batting 1000 every day also..
jarcar202 1 year ago
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Believed in God is the requirement for salvation. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be save. The Bible says, it's not church membership, it's not catechism, it's not confirmation, it's not baptism, it's not keeping the law. It's trusting in the LORD Jesus Christ & His saving work on Calvary. Period.-Faith alone, PLus nothing minus nothing. BUT & here's the BALANCE, the kind of faith that truly saves is the kind of faith that will reflect itself in the quality of your life!
reyldeguz 1 year ago
Faith without works is dead just like the dead sea because living faith always works its way out in your life in the form of good works, it's not salvation by works but it's a salvation that works.
reyldeguz 1 year ago
@reyldeguz
Oh wow, that is a really cool way of putting it. Not a salvation by works, but a salvation that works. Thanks, bro.
rofyle 1 year ago
repentance means to rethink, or change of mind.. you go from not caring about your sin, to hating the fact that you have sin.. we all still sin... no one can become perfect.. even christians struggle in sin.,.. but a true christian tries to have victory over it, and a non christian dont care that they even do it.. its not a big deal to them.. it not like the "murdered" anyone..
jarcar202 1 year ago 2
@jarcar202 What do you mean by "become perfect" and "struggle with sin" ???
RobertMOdell 1 year ago
Repentance is a change of mind that leads to believing the gospel. You can repent and not be saved, but you must repent. I don't doubt that. I don't disregard His Lordship, I do disregard Lordship Salvation though because it teaches a false gospel of works salvation. Easy believism is a slam to those who believe we are saved by faith in Jesus work on the cross alone without works and saying that we teach salvation is too easy. Well, God made it that way, not me or any other man.
bibleword 1 year ago
Jesus is Lord over every saved person. I don't know what James White is talking about, but he is barking up the wrong the wrong tree.
bibleword 1 year ago
Mr White is not listening to what the LS preachers are saying. Repenting does not save you. Turning from your sin does not save you. Christ saves you. Keeping the law does not save you.
Yes I do believe in not sinning but we all know we all do. We must call on the Lord to save us from our sin. And remember the Lord Always gives the elect a path to flee from sin.
Let's remember ALL our works are nothing but dirty rags.
youratm 2 years ago
REPENT and believe.
RMCDisciple 2 years ago
Why does James White always try to speak for the Reformers as though he were representing all of them?
}: /
RPM11111 2 years ago
Lordship salvation, Lordship schmalvation. Just call it true salvation, i.e., God sanctifies those whom he justifies. If there is no fruit or repentance whatsoever, then there is surely no true, saving faith, only a false, dead faith.
GPLeague 2 years ago 6
True. You can't be a 'new creation' in Christ and not have clear and present evidence of it in your life.
RPM11111 2 years ago
Amen and Amen!!!
DIETOSELFREPENT 2 years ago 2
Amen.
seanpaynedotnet 2 years ago 2
I don't think any proponent of LS even REMOTELY believes that it is the CAUSE of their salvation, but that it is the EFFECT of their salvation and the outward evidence of it. It saddens me to see such attacks on the saints.
And I wouldn't even consider myself to necessarily be an advocate of LS, however, I will say that the most edifying sermons I have seen have come from those within the camp.
skintightpotato 2 years ago 3
And I've been staying out of all the bickering, but I've been extremely frustrated by what, by all appearances, seems to be a deliberate misrepresentation of what LS even means. And some people seem to be taking their "theology" to idolatrous levels.
Thanks for posting this diligentile :)
skintightpotato 2 years ago 3
The one thing I always think of especially when many define LS as works i.e. must overcome every sin to make Christ Lord and thus saved, I always wander, does not people realize LS is often advocated by Calvinists? Total Depravity teaches that man under the wieght of sin will never choose or even have the ability to choose salvation let alone overcome sins to make Christ Lord!
daveme7 2 years ago
I don't get it either daveme....He chose us, so EVERYTHING afterwards, works or not, are all *after* the fact of salvation. To say that a Calvinist teaching LS is teaching works-based salvation just seems silly to me.
I was having this very conversation on another thread. As a Calvinist, not even our own "choice" for Christ was of our own doing! So yeah...Him saving us is the first thing that happens, before works even enter into the picture!...I don't know what people don't get about that :P
skintightpotato 2 years ago
@skintightpotato Sharing with a friend the other night...to over come sins to make Christ Lord...would it not make sense to say you are making your self Lord by overcoming sin? At a IFB college, one day something hit me-aty least those I knew(and do understand not all are always this way)-seems the one thought came to mind was they say they are saved by grace and act like they are saved by works(and sometimes, God uses people worst than you to show you how bad you are. Read Galatians on that
daveme7 3 months ago
@daveme7 EXCELLENT POINT.....and 1 that exposes that those who teach such a thing are clearly talking out of both sides of their mouths!
orangewizard 3 months ago
Awesome. I heard this recently on TDL, but couldn't find it again.
I makes no sense to me that Reformed Christians would deny Lordship salvation. Seems more like an Arminian position: The weakest of faith can save.
But if faith is a gift from God, it would be unfailing.
I see it as a gift which contains repentance, perseverence, recognition of Lordship, good works, and other traits essential to the Christian life.
TheotherPrometheus 2 years ago 3
The one thing nthat always comes to mind to me is do non Lordship advocates confess that Christ is not their God but still going to heaven? Sometimes I will ask if they agree we really do not have to love the Lord our God with all our might.
Of course when bring this understanding I will usually get one of a couple actions including back pedaling and re-redefining LS
daveme7 2 years ago
Amen. The whole counsel of God must be preached when proclaiming the Gospel. Thank you for uploading this, brother. Praise the Lord.
Utopiang 2 years ago 2
Thanks for the video. I've read through Phil Johnson's TeamPyro postings on the Lordship Salvation debate and it was very imformative.
The problem that we've had recently though is people in the "Reformed" camp believing that the idea of MacArthur's Lordship Salvation isn't anything other than Roman Catholic teachings on Justification. I don't see it personally, but then again, I haven't read any of their heroes Gordon Clark or John Robbins yet.
Raada77 2 years ago 3
@Raada77 Evidently you haven't read Luther or Calvin either. The Roman Catholic position is that Christ's righteousness is infused. In other words, the Holy Spirit works IN us to help us do good works of obedience. Based on this obedience we are justified. The biblical and Protestant view is that God imputes our sins to Jesus and His righteousness to us. That is the exchange. It is not something done in us but wholly outside of us. Rome confuses the fruit with the root or cause with effect.
Blogrich55 2 years ago
Rich... Rich... Rich...
I pray you stay away from the likes of Redbeetle and his crew. They strain out a gnat and swallow a camel. They profess sound theology in parts, but deny it in their tongue and attitude. I'm hoping you are different. I'm hoping they can become different.
I know the difference between infused and imputed. So does MacArthur, Sproul, and Piper who Redbeetle and crew deem as heretical false teachers. So very sad.
Raada77 2 years ago 9
just a note macarthur also thinks there will be a rapture.
youratm 2 years ago
All Christians believe in the rapture. It's a matter of when that we differ on.
Raada77 2 years ago
@Raada77 That is true...
youratm 2 years ago
@youratm pretty funny about the rapture ehhh? All secret. Also all without scripture warrant. God bless you Tony.
Blogrich55 2 years ago
@Blogrich55, Straw man -- no LS proponent denies "alien, imputed righteousness". What IS denied is that this imputed, alien righteousness will fail to produce good works. What is also denied is that this imputed and alien righteousness is applied to those who do not despise and repent of their sins. See Westminster Shorter Catechism questions 85-88 in particular. Notice the use of the word REPENTANCE.
stegokitty 2 years ago 2
@stegokitty And if you say that those who do not promote LS do not believe that good works follow from those who are justified by grace you hare trotted out a straw man. If you also believe that only LSist believe Jesus is our Lord and Savior you have brought out another straw man.
The very fact that Calvinists stress the sovereignty of God should show they stress His lordship for that is what a sovereign is...He is LORD. One thing needs to be clear in all of this--
Blogrich55 2 years ago
@ stegokitty
#2. What we need to have clear is the Arminians like Bill Bright are the ones who deny Jesus must be BOTH Lord and Savior. Also, the favorite whipping boy of the LSist is the DAMNABLE doctrine of decisional regeneration is NOT taught by those Calvinists who do not tout so-called Lordship Salvation.
Jesus is either Lord or NOT Savior. Period! Now we may have fuit the size of a grape and not a watermellon but we will have fruit. One last thing, bad fruit does NOT negate the good!
Blogrich55 2 years ago
@Blogrich55 - I'm afraid you're mixing up all sorts of things that have nothing to do with LS. The on-LS folks are Dispensationalists, who believe in the so-called "carnal Christian" doctrine, and those who THINK they're Reformed but are not.
Not sure why you included anything about bad fruit negating the good. No one has said otherwise.
stegokitty 2 years ago
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@stegokitty: "The on-LS folks are Dispensationalists, who believe in the so-called "carnal Christian" doctrine, and those who THINK they're Reformed but are not."
Could you explain this for me? I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying here.
ATLpirate 1 year ago
@BlogRich55, if this is so, then what's the problem with LS? LS is simply the Reformed view of salvation. God saves sinners UNTO good works. Works have nothing to do with justification, but if there is no good works, there is no justification. If there is no perseverance, there is no justification. That's all LS is saying.
stegokitty 2 years ago