"What if your child becomes religious?" (Parenting Beyond Belief #5)

[8698gil]

I deliberately did not give my children any religious indoctrination, I never baptized them, took them to church, or any kind of religious instruction whatsoever. My oldest daughter is 30 years old. She knows nothing really about the bible, but she professes that she is a believer and that I am completely wrong. I have no idea what I did wrong here. I can't even reason with her, she won't listen. Hell, she believes that Noah's Ark is real.

[funboy1231]

/watch?v=x8GgOVfZiag Best parenting advice. Please watch I highly reccomend every1 to view

[xerdopwerko]

I was pondering this just this morning, actually. While I intend to never have children, if I ever had a child and he or she turned to become religious, I would begrudgingly raise them until their eighteenth birthday, and that day, I would immediately kick them out of the house, with just the clothes they are wearing, and tell them I hope their "christ" can feed and clothe them.

I really hate religion, and hope someday I can help it end permanently. I greatly fear it poisoning my kids.

[BoooDave]

Enjoyed all your videos a lot! The subjects up to now don't really have a wrong answer, as long as it's an informed answer. I'm looking forward to the next video especially, as that's going to be a bit more black and white and I'll be interested to hear how have you tackled conveying the facts of evolution, without turning your children in to drones that become hostile to the other kids/people they'll encounter in their lives that are less well educated on the subject and deny it without thought

[OGjimbo]

There is some really good insight here, I've been sort of avoiding it but I think I'm about to make a video on the subject after watching this.

More than anything I want my son to make up his own mind, I really don't want him to decide that he's an Atheist just because he's parroting his Dad.

I want him to look at all the possibilities and take into account all of the arguments for and against each one and then decide what he wants to believe.

[neoaeonian]

"And then she turned six"

LOL!

That's wonderful

[Shavarnarak]

If I had a child that'd become religious I'd deconvert them by showing all the errors, nonsense, cruelties and contradictions in the holy book in question.

If the deconversion failed, I'd admittedly be highly disappointed that I could have such an irrational child.

But fact is, in the end I think that'd wane, and I probably wouldn't be openly hostile about it or anything. But I'd admit I'd be seriously disappointed.

Of course a hypothetical child would know I hate religions to start with.

[Shavarnarak]

@Shavarnarak

Of course if a child of mine would become like Fred fucking Phelps or anything like that, I'd sever all ties with them.

They are on their own then and good riddance and I'd regret ever having had them. I'd also become their fiercest opponent.

If they think I'd give any love or support to a hateful piece of shit in the mold of Phelps they'd have another thing coming, blood or not. And they wouldn't be the first hateful familymembers I gave the heave ho.

[Shavarnarak]

Overall I think your way is far more permissive then mine would be if I had kids.

I can't say I'd be terribly open-minded if later on they had a partner choice I'd heavily disapprove of.

I could pretend to be different, but I'm just not the 'live and let live, it's all good' type and I never will be. And I do believe you got to ultimately be true to what you are.

No worries though, I don't want kids anyway. I don't think it'd work out, and there's to many people anyway.

[1RadicalOne]

If my daughter (who is currently a couple of months old) started to see validity in religion, I would make an effort to show her all the contradicting evidence I could find. Which would not be hard, especially with the Abrahamic religions.

Kendra is far too valuable to lose to the god virus.

[1RadicalOne]

"Not that dissimilar to Phelps."

And you show Robertson and Falwell. :)

[inquiry10]

thanks for mentioning the belief o matic test lol I have got to have my parents and sister do that test. Apparently I only agree with them 22% (fundamentalist Pentecostals) I am not sure what I agree with them on but ah well still fun thanks

[inquiry10]

I am so glad I found this video series.

Its adding a lot of informations to my questions about raising children as an atheist

science bless you

[detectivemoosers]

Finally! Thank you to Dale McGowan for putting together some fantastic books and creating this source of desperately needed information. It's so nice to hear these ideas and thoughts from other people. I've feel like I've been hiding for so long. Thank you!!!

[dayati]

...cont'd

The other problem I have with religion is that it causes otherwise intelligent people to shut off their brains whenever discussing anything contradictory to their faith. I have a brilliant friend who becomes the biggest apologist whenever this happens. I call it "doing mental gymnastics."

To me, this is unacceptable in the field of science. You cannot allow your faith to get in the way of scientific research. In America, the biggest example of this would be stem cell research.

[dayati]

Really glad I stumbled on these videos. I agree with most of what you teach, but I think you're a little too forgiving about religion's ability to poison the mind and cause otherwise good people to do horrible things that no rational person would do. I'm from Iran and I can't even begin to tell you the horrors brought about in the name of religion (jail, executions, torture, maiming, displacement, etc). I now live in Canada and people here don't realize how good they have it.

cont'd...

[PBBChannel]

Thanks dayati. I think we're actually in full agreement here. I am not in the least forgiving of religious atrocities and the ability of religion in many (not all) of its forms to suspend rational thought. But I do insist that my kids be allowed to sort that on their own. The conclusion will be more meaningful and long lasting when they do.

[dayati]

You're right about that. But how exactly do you tell them about the negative aspects without sounding overly biased? I mean, I could go on for days about the negatives because me and my family were affected directly in a negative way (I know most people are affected in indirect ways as well). I guess I find it difficult to remain as neutral as you suggest here.

BTW, I'm definitely going to pick up your books. I like most of what I've heard so far in your videos.

[PBBChannel]

Yes, it's a struggle to avoid dictating our own opinions to our kids. But I'm NOT neutral, and I'm not suggesting you should be either. I let my kids know exactly how I feel. But I also let them know that I trust them to use their own minds to sort the good from the bad. I think they'll do at least as well as I have. (See my video #4 for more on this.)

[dayati]

Ok, I see. Guess I misunderstood what you were trying to say. Thanks.

[scruethedemiurge]

@PBBChannel Why would you "trust your kids to use their own minds"? The fact is IF you religiously indoctrinated them, it would most likely take for life. This is why we, those who share a vision of a nation free from the scurge of religious oppression absolutely must seize power and abolish parenthood. Kids could then be raised in state facilities in which they'd be given a proper education and never even so much as hear the word "god".

[scruethedemiurge]

@PBBChannel The up bringing of kids is not the domaine of on the job training. This goes even for the best and brightest of people. As for the superstitious, the fanatically religious, the delusional - we've all committed a crime in allowing them custodionship of "their" kids. The crime is against the individual kids themselves and against all society, each generation of which suffers the scourge of a fresh legion of brainwashees.

[scruethedemiurge]

@PBBChannel I'm not suggesting we violate parents rights to raise their kids as they see fit. Indeed, no such right exists in the first place. We are obliged to save the kids from the shackles of religious brainwashing and stultification by those who are, really, not fit to raise hamsters. We are obliged to save society from the religous typs who would take us back to the bronze age - and they start their work on society within their own homes, on their kids.

[scruethedemiurge]

@PBBChannel Too much is at stake; we can't rely on half measures. For the health of the individual and for the sake of all future progress, we must set society up such that kids are raised by PROFESSIONAL child up bringers - people who've been rigerously trained and tested, who aren't deluded by superstitions and who have child raising down to a science and know what they're doing. Even the "good" parents only have some idea what their doing by about their 3rd or 4th kid. This can't go on.

[rainworthryan]

@PBBChannel What are your views on the Abortion attrocity first sanctioned by atheistic/secular governments in the west? What are your views on spirituality also?

[americanmuslimgirl]

@dayati Don't you understand that the "same" religion that turns some into monsters can turn others into angels? I really pity you if you don't know any practicing Muslims who are better people because of it. That is one of the great tragedies of the state of Islam in these modern times. There's a hadith that says Islam entered as a stranger and it will leave as one. I don't see the number of people who identify themselves as Muslim significantly lowering any time soon.

[dayati]

@americanmuslimgirl You just said Islam can turn people into both monsters and angels. You're crediting Islam for the "angels" but are you willing to blame Islam for the "monsters" as well? Judging from your name, chances are you are a "moderate" Muslim (meaning, you don't actually follow the Qu'ran). Just like white-washed Christians who don't really follow the Bible. You aren't good BECAUSE of Islam, you are good DESPITE it. The same book you praise has caused untold pain and suffering.

[americanmuslimgirl]

@dayati Thanks for your opinion, but it's bullshit. I am not a "moderate" Muslim. I blame the "monsters" on the inability to understand the spirit of Islam and a lack of proper education about Islam. Most people who become "bad Muslims" are not very well versed in Islam or in the Quran. They believe Islam is the same thing you think it is. You can't tell me what the Quran is or it isn't because you have no clue. Please let me learn my religion and stop trying to teach me what you think it is.

[americanmuslimgirl]

@dayati (cont) And if I'm not a "real" Muslim than 98-99% of the Muslims I know are not "real" Muslims either.Practicing Muslims are the best people I know&that is why I credit Islam for their qualities.Those people I talked about are converts who don't speak Arabic&haven't been around practicing Muslims..Every single "bad Muslim" I have known were bad before they decided they wanted to be Muslim.They did a lot of major sins in their youth,then they start practicing due to a political awakening.

[dayati]

@americanmuslimgirl Listen, I come from Iran, which is a theocracy based on Islam. My father is a scholar and is writing a book on Islamic history and another on Rumi. I think I know a thing or two about Islam, ok. American Muslims are mostly moderates. You are TOLD what Islam is, just like Catholics blindly following the Pope. To be honest, the whitewashing is actually a good thing because if you followed the Quran exactly, then you be just like the "monsters" you described.

[dayati]

@americanmuslimgirl To be honest, you don't want to debate me regarding Islam because you will be here for months trying to defend your silly religion. No amount of apologetics fed to you by spin doctors like that fraud Naik are going to help you. Your religion is a joke based on a another religion that's also a joke.

[americanmuslimgirl]

@dayati You're right, I don't want to get mired in the weeds of your ignorance. Believing that I listen to people like Zakir Naik is part of your ignorance of me and what I believe. I listen to scholars who know what the hell they're talking about and who are intellectually honest and would not continue practicing Islam if they believed it was bad. I don't get into silly debates. It's a waste of my fucking time.There is not one atom in my body that cares 1% what you think of something I know.Bye

[dayati]

@americanmuslimgirl Thanks for the insults. Anyway, case in point, you still learn of Islam from spindoctors. And again, I find the watered down version they feed you much more palatable than what Muhammad actually had his scribe write down. You are no different from cafeteria Christians who get all angry and swear that they are REAL Christians, yet do not actually follow their own holy book. I don't need to know you in order to know you. Anyone who's ever been in sales knows that "unique" is BS

[blomstersenter]

If your child does not belive in Jesus its important to do whatever you can whatsoever. Do you want your child to live in hell for eternity? What I did after trying everything was to kill my sons dog (at the vet of course). I had tried everything before, beating him, refusing food, bed and so on.

Because my son stopped beliving in God for 2 and half week he suffers from depression and anxiety. The scars he got from beating does not heal ( God wants to remind him)

I urge everyone to do the same

[milloselmejor]

I really hope this is some sort of Poe's law prank...

[weglarz]

There is nothing wrong with someone's beliefs, including whether or not they decide to join a religion, so long as they thought for themselves to get there.

[patricknelson]

Speaking of the importance of a world view in a child -I think it is important as well and, as a matter of fact, doesn't mean you should impose per se. Being as important as it is, chances are that if you impose at all, they may rebel out of spite.

[fr1j0l3]

Great stuff.

thanks for creating these.

(feels way better about how I raise my midgets)

[alakshak2006]

"Too much thinking = problem"

Haaaahahahahahahahahahahahahah­a!

That sums up religion pretty well. It and its followers prefer disabling the higher brain centers. Emotion does this thoroughly, and is the trick and device of choice.

[recs031687]

I believe you are over-thinking all of this.

[wangrachel1]

Wait recs, lemme write that down...Too much thinking is a problem. Got it. Check.

[Revyloution]

Nicely done, I've been 'preaching' this kind of child rearing myself. I've intentionally exposed my offspring to as many different types of religion as possible. I consider it similar to vaccinations. I start our lessons by compressing the core dogmas into a brief 10 minute story. And all religions seem ridiculous when compressed into 10 minutes.

I do disagree with one point. There is no way in hell im going to let my kid be 'political'

;)

[nleck]

Oh, I liked this video. great job.

[blotzphoto]

Great job per usual Dale. Our 4 year old is just starting to ask those big questions about the world and you've already been a big help.

BTW, you're kind of listing to the left throughout this video.

[PBBChannel]

True, and unintentional, and funny!

[99minerkc]

Although it can happen it's HIGHLY unlikely that a child will get religion in a non-religious family! Now, if it did happen in my family I would find out what led them to their experience and would make sure that they understood that religion as a whole was poison! Now Fred Rogers a good person?

[99minerkc]

Sure but it wasn't due to his religion! As a matter of fact that was the one area that he wasn't so nice! He tried to convert people in a very subtle passive manner but he tried to convert people non the less!

[PBBChannel]

This is a common mishearing. I never claimed Rogers' goodness was "due to his religion," since I don't believe that. The point of the video is to show that someone can be both religious and good, not that religion causes their goodness.

[99minerkc]

I'm not sure that I believe that a religious person can be good. If I think religion is evil which I do believe than a religious person(if he/she witnesses to others) in my opinion is not good. Can they do good things? Sure I think so. Anyway, that's just my opinion and I should have stated that(my mistake)to begin with.

Peace : )

[PBBChannel]

According to the most recent Pew study on the topic, your first sentence is incorrect. 54 percent of kids raised in unaffiliated homes end up identifying with a religious worldview at some point later in life.

[99minerkc]

What's a " Pew"? Is it a study done by religious people or secular? What do you mean by identifying, you mean making a commitment? When I said "get religion" I meant become born again and that maybe inaccurate as I didn't get that information from a poll!

[99minerkc]

One other thing, I think most people in the USA that claim to be Christian aren't what I would define as a truly committed born again Christian who truly follows the Christ of the bible. Our society is an example of what I say, don't you think? cya : )

[exacerbatedtaboo]

I have two kids and both of them go to church every week. I am an atheist and don't really wish my kids would take this route in life but I believe in religious freedom as well. If my kids have to stand up everyday and put their hands on their hearts and pledge alleigence to the flag then they can at very least be granted that much freedom in their young lives. Sorry this was so long.

[gatomjp]

I'm a staunch atheist who is with you 100% on this!

[tinabh]

Good job Dale! Liked it a lot. But how about everyone else trying to influence my child?

[PBBChannel]

That's where their own critical thinking skills and the unconditional love of reality come in. Build those early and deep, then let the games begin!

[PBBChannel]

"Whoever must deal with the consequences of a decision is entitled to make that decision."

I first heard this concept 25 years ago, and it still strikes me as one of the great ideas.

[librehombre10]

A great argument in favor of letting children decide the important questions in life for themselves. In our laws and mores there is the embedded concept that whoever must deal with the consequences of a decision is entitled to make that decision. No one else, not the state, not parents, not the Pope.

[carsoma19]

Just found the PBB YouTube channel after listening to Dale's interview on the Point Of Inquiry podcast. Thanks for organizing and sharing your thoughts, Dale. Really like your concept of "freethinker with a lower case 'f.'" I'm reading Parenting Beyond Belief now. My first child is 6 week old. -Matt

[PBBChannel]

@ wimvandenberghe: Yes! The Belief-o-Matic is one of the best ways to show how much we all overlap and intertwine in values and beliefs.

[wimvandenberghe]

I was brought up in a liberal Catholic tradition. The other day, my dad (who still sees himself as a Catholic) and I both did the Beliefomatic quiz over at Beliefnet. I came out as a secular humanist (no surprise there) and my dad came out as a unitarian universalist with secular humanist in 2nd place!. Out of 30 possible "faiths", Catholic" was about number 27 on his list. Just goes to show how misleading labels can be, even when people apply them to themselves.