Walls free-willism is problematic, but Ware the Neo-Cal does not understand the distinction between sovereignty and predestination, and conjoins them. Sovereignty is "dominion" whereas predestination is "action." While absolute predestination requires absolute sovereignty, absolute sovereignty does not require absolute predestination. In fact absolute sovereignty, of necessity, includes the authority to not predestine, else it is subservient to predestination and not absolutely sovereign.
Heh, indeed. But isn't it funny how some of us are delighted at eloquent and scriptural illustrations of the sovereignty will of God in action through men who according to their own hearts desires chose to do what they did, while others are offended? I don't know if people simply misunderstand or they really have set up an idol in their hearts that isn't the God of the Bible...
I have been born again since July 2003, recently maybe in the last year though, I have become a universalist, because I truly believe in my heart that we all shall be in Heaven by hook or crook.
@xhemexx Arminians and Calvinist have beautiful theologies:A-God desires the salvation of everyone(Arminian);B-God is sovereign therefore he will accomplish all that he desires(Calvinist).If God desires the salvation of everyone and he has the power to accomplish this desire,dosen't it seem logical that he will save everyone? Isn't the combination of A and B Biblical Universalism? Because both believe in eternal hell they are forced to reject or explain away each other's theology
How frustrating are these people that don't believe that God predestines all things. Did they understand this video? I understand their concerns but they are thinking according to their own standards not God’s standard. What’s more they are speaking nonsense on stilts!!!
@BeholdTheCross I have this whole debate and the Arminian side was faced with some strong truth by the end.It just seems like when these kinds of debates happen people just root for their own side and not listen to the arguments close enough.
Everyone has free will. EVERY single person CHOOSES to rebel, disobey, sin against God and go their own way. God has to intervene and save the lost. That's the beauty of grace and nobody deserves it.
All of our choices and decisions are based on our desires and a result of prior experiences. In order for free will to have any validity, our choices would have to be made by random selection with no thought for why we are making any decision.
umm...where does our ability to reason and our God-given consciences fit in with your statement?? If we were simply machines made of meat, I'd agree with what you wrote, but we're not.
We are God's image bearers, please don't denigrate some of His best work!
@rntlee Most creatures appear to have some ability to reason but lets not give humans more credit than we deserve. Yes, we have some ability to make decisions, too, but the scriptures say that humans are born in sin and that all are sinners and fall short. Nowhere does scripture say that men are born without sin, righteous, and able to come to Christ without the help of God. Believers who have been saved by God's grace are indeed some of God's "best work" but you ain't seen nothing yet!
These men argue and use philosophy while working with the builders. Just like Satan they use their knowledge to entice, with their fancy five point doctrines from men. They make new a covenant that God made obsolete, in their own terms they choose Jews over Jesus. Don't be a Calvinist! Seek the Lord in heaven Christ Yeshua.
To ARMINIANS -Romans 11:32 "for God has shut up all to unbelief, that he might have mercy on all".
To CALVINISTS -1 Timothy 4:10"for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of ALL MEN ESPECIALLY y of those believing."
DOUBTERS I Cor. 15:23-28"But every man in his own order:..For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet..last enemy...destroyed is DEATH... Son also Himself be subject unto Him..that God may be ALL IN ALL"
the harder it is to come out especially when one is not Born Again. It's the spirit of religion that blinds the eyes of the heart that is so deceiving, it's a damnable road.
@Strefanasha In other words, what I'm saying is they will never understand you nor the scripture in which they read, they will and do twist it to make it fit their false gospel. It's an "intellectual" gospel in which takes away "the simplicity in Christ." Unless people have had the Born-Again experience of an INDIVIDUAL free will choice to believe in Jesus Christ, surrendering to Him after that which God has drawn them, then your almost wasting time, the more ppl get enriched into false doctrine
@Strefanasha Calvinist's will never understand, they love Romans 9 but they never actually read the entirety of the Bible to understand that chapter. And yes, Calvin was a tyrant - hated his brother to the point of death. Wrought forth a damnable gospel that is leading millions astray, this is a perfect example of Satan coming "as an angel of light." Many "calvinists" aren't saved, they have head knowledge of their "Jesus" but they never had a surrender to Christ, no Holy Ghost discernment.
@Strefanasha The Trinity is not a paradox - it is an eternal, single entity containing three personalities. The titles of Father, Son and Spirit reflect the roles each Person of the Trinity has in their eternal relationship.
Read Romans 6:16-23. Paul makes it clear human 'freedom' is an illusion. We are slaves either to sin (our natural state), or slaves to righteousness through the undeserved Grace of God the Holy Spirit.
Your 'freedom' means God is not free, which is not the Biblical witness.
@Strefanasha Leaving Isaiah 46:9-10, Romans 9:16-18 and Proverbs 16:33 to one side, I wonder how your concept of creaturely 'freedom' can deal with the prophecy of Christ' death in Isaiah 53? Surely, if all creatures are utterly 'free' in their choices, it must be logically possible for God's plans to fail - and yet Peter explains in Acts 4:27-28 how God's plan was fulfilled.
I'm not even going to ask you to explain Ephesians 1:3-6 or Revelation 13:8, but I would recommend you consider them.
@Strefanasha Haha. 16th Century tyrants? Seriously? Are you a Christian? You know that you're talking about your brother in Christ right? I would also really like to understand what you actually know about reformed soteriology. I also am 100% positive that you have no more of a greater understanding of God's sovereignty than a Calvinist does. Please, put your arrogance aside brother. We can have these discussions without resorting to slander and crude rebuttals. Show some maturity.
because i denied free will as a hard derministic atheist, and denied moral responsiblity as a result, I will NEVER, as a christian, deny free will.
I will NEVER as a christian be a calvinist. preach all you like, moral accountability is the irreducible core of the thing, and free will is the irreduciible core of accountability.
you calvinists can define free will out of existence all you like i will NEVER go there.
i remember the hell of nihilism as from my determinism, to EVER follow you.
@Stref.. Do you know you are quoting Romans 9:19? You are asking "If I do a thing, but did not use my free will to do it, then how can I be held accountable?" OR as Paul says it "One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" The argument being made against Paul is that if God is sovereign over men as Paul is asserting, then how could God blame us when it is HIS will that we are doing. Paul answers "But who are you Strefanasha to talk back to God?"
I think that this lecture shows that God can use human sinful choices to greater good for the human race. God can use anything to the greater good and godly plans. God in the end will get what God plans. Gods will in the end will not be stopped by human behaviors. How about Job ?? He tried to not follow God and went west, and God put him into a whale and then Job was ready to trust God. God will not be stopped.
One essential biblical point is that God changes hearts. Indeed, that is the quality about Him that makes Him able to save, where human hands are not capable. That is the quality that makes Him Savior!
He takes out a heart of stone and puts in a heart of flesh.
Yet, Arminians claim that "love by definition, requires free will." Yet how could someone with a heart of stone love and choose Jesus? This Arminian view renders God powerless to do the one thing that only He can do! Save!
So God has this "latent" power, kind of like a "potential" power, but He lays back and allows the will of man to forge into the future?
How did he fulfull His prophecies? Or are you saying that they weren't "fulfilled" with His wonder-working power, but rather God was a passive fortune teller?
Oops, I got a meeting, talk to you a little later.
@TalmidRoi Hey, I just typed a response, but responded to myself instead, lol.
But the conclusion of my prior comment is this:
Those two principles seem to contradict, but there is a reason why they are not incompatible. It takes some faith and some digging to find out why they are not illogical. But first, you must surrender your own assumptions, and rather, let your reasoning flow from the WORD and not your own assumptions. That is what the Word says, cope with it, don't criticize it!
@RomansGalatians And let me comment on this. I based my reasoning from the Word of God. I even shown you Scriptures to back up my statements. And I don't criticize the Word of God. I only criticize doctrines that do the following:
a. make God a puppeteer who wills and predestines some men (elect) to go to heaven and some men to be burnt in hell
b. take God's love and justice away by manipulating men by sending "irresistible grace"
@TalmidRoi OK, let me say this, a robot is made by man. It is under the control of its maker. Now, for one man to claim to be the maker of another man, and to control another man is a bad thing.
But again, those truths applicable when another man is the subject of the sentence do not hold true when God is the subject.
God IS our Maker. We have nothing that He didn't give us. We are pots to Him. He IS in control.
@RomansGalatians JackWolf is not my friend and I'm not running with him. I don't even know him. If you ask me if I believe in the doctrine of Trinity, I would say yes to that. And don't equate me with him. I think, almost everyone has a differing belief on doctrines.
@TalmidRoi You know, the Bible does say that a saved man does not sin. I'd have to find that reference. I don't really know what it means, but I do know that I do things against God's law all the time.
But, again, I think that the word "sin" has a different biblical meaning than what the average Joe would call sin.
I have heard people say that we shouldn't view sin as little actions against the law, but as Sin with a capital S, and that has been crucified to the cross.
@RomansGalatians Frankly, I don't really have all the answers, and I am a little rusty on these arguments (I've been debating Creation against Evolutionists lately).
But, simply, I find the idea of a will, untethered and detached from self, as an untennable idea. I mean whether Calvinism is true or no, I just cannot logically grasp the idea of a "detached" will, that acts independently of my own mind and emotions. How would I be responisble, if this undetached thing acted on its own?
@RomansGalatians Really, I don't really try to reason on my own, when I find that the Word is clearly stating principles contrary to my feeble "reasoning."
I know of two very strong Christian principles:
1) Sinners are powerless over their sin. (If they could quit sinning on their own, why would they need a Savior to deliver them from sin. Why couldn't man just deliver himself with his own hands?),
@RomansGalatians I think you are not like those other Calvinists. I found you humble and not irritating. I hope you would not take away this impression from me.
Actually, I really believe that there's a logic on this. 1) Sinners are powerless over their sin. [It's because of the sin of one man that we are all dead spiritually. Rom. 5:12.] 2) Sinners are responsible for that Sin because of what Adam did. We inherited death through Adam and that is why we too are sinners and then comes Rom. 3:23.
@TalmidRoi Thanks bro, and no, you are very cool and not abrasive,too. I think that the questions that you ask, are sincere questions, and I don't really have good answers for them. But that does not keep me from holding onto the truth that I do know.
The way that I think about it is in terms of "horizontal" relationships among men, and "vertical" relationship with God. When we speak of men, for example, it would be a sin to worship another man, it is good to be independent from other men . .
@TalmidRoi we shouldn't fear other men. But when it comes to a "vertical" relationship with God, all of those truths about men are just the opposite!: for example, it is holy and good to worship God, we seek for the humility to know our great weakness and depend wholly on God, and fear of God is a good thing.
So, depending on what one's "truth" is in relation to, two contradicting things can be true, if the subject of the sentence is different. Do you kinda see what I mean?
@RomansGalatians Yes, I understand where you are at. But do you really believe that, with regards to your concept of "truth", God is both the author of sin and the Savior of sinners?
@RomansGalatians Okay. But Calvin, if you really look very closely to his theology, it seemed that he is saying that God purposed everything, even evil and sin. Am I right? And also, if God is not the creator of Sin, then it's like saying that Adam has the freedom to choose sin. And also, like Adam's previous "holy" state, saved persons have also the possibility of committing sin if we walk according to the flesh and not according to the Spirit.
@RomansGalatians If you suggest 1John 3:8 as the reference, it does not really say that a saved man does not sin even once because if it really does it contradicts the other chapter of the same book, 1John 2:1. The Bible is clear that many people who once are saved have already turned to satan and backslid. And this would mean that what you are saying, that we don't have the "freedom to choose" and all that we do is bound to the will of God once we are saved, is really false.
@TalmidRoi In response to your previous post. First, let me say that the purpose of the law was never to obey every bit of it. Rather, the purpose of the law was to humble us, and show us that we CANNOT possibly obey every bit of it. Thus, in despair of ever reaching heaven on the strength of our own hands, we throw ourselves at the foot of the cross and ask for MERCY.
A saved person is delivered from the penalty of the law, and that Sin was paid in a single event 2000 years ago.
@RomansGalatians Hmm... I totally disagree with you on saying that a person is delivered from the "penalty" of the law, which I think you mean for further saying "the law of sin." The Bible did not say it that way. We are free from the penalty of sin when we are in Christ and do not sin. But if we do not keep Jesus' commandments, we do not abide in Him, 1Jn3:24, (we are not in Christ) and thus we are not saved. We must repent of our sins and come again to Jesus.
@RomansGalatians Well, if you think I'm a legalist, then John the apostle is also a legalist. Am I right?
1John 3:24, "And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him..."
And one of his commandments, which is given through John, is do not hate your brother. And 1Jn3:15 says, "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."
@RomansGalatians Also, keep in mind that the Mosaic Law is not equal to Jesus' commandments. When John says keep His commands, he refers to the commandments of Jesus Christ, not the Mosaic Law.
Legalism is when you keep the Mosaic Law to get salvation.
@TalmidRoi Well, some people go to church, say all the right things, pay their tithe, but they are not saved. Even some people have recited a sinners prayer, but there was no change in their heart.
When a person is saved, he will have fruits consistent with salvation. That is what 1Jn 3:24 was saying: Don't let your heart deceive you to think that you are saved, when one is not.
Read it the other way: "People who are really saved change" NOT "change yourself to earn salvation."
@TalmidRoi 1Jn3:24 is a test to tell us whether we are really saved or not, true! But, of course, I am a Calvinist, and I believe that once saved, always saved.
@RomansGalatians Well, everything unfolds according to God's providence, but I don't think Calvin said that God created Sin. Rather sin is the lack of something, not a thing itself. Calvin also believed that man has a will.
Hey, can I suggest a three part series. You can give me a youtube homework assignment, too. It just explains where I am coming from so much better than I can.
The series is Mark Kielar's "To The Praise of the Glory of My Free Will . . " Simple, clear and concise.
@TalmidRoi After watching Dan Corner, let me ask: Why did you ask me: "Are you now perfect and do not sin?" Were you trying to disprove my salvation? Was that really your legalistic intent?
Are you contending that YOU are perfect and that YOU are without sin?
This is my question for the Calvinist. Who died for your sins? Jesus Christ did, not John Calvin. If Calvinism claims to be the gospel of "Grace" then why did he have so many people executed for disagreeing with him? Also why would God choose a select "few" over others? What qualifies the elect to be saved then the non elect? Calvinism is the exact doctrine that Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist church teaches. I don't see any grace in that. Sorry.
@TheFootballguy1010 Why would God choose anyone at all sir?No one deserves God's grace and Calvin's character as little to do with noyhing.Ad hominem arguments don't fly.Answer me one question who are the ones propitiated by the death of Christ? and for whome does He intercede?
@jeffpoet Answer me this... as Calvin wrote in chapter 18 of his Institution... If God not only allows, but directs evil, and man itself has no free will whatsoever, where exactly lies the cause of said evil? Please give a better answer than Calvin gave his opponents... you know: "Well, yeah, God does create evil... but he is not responsible... man is... even though man has no free will." Servetus was right... the god of calvinism is a three-headed, fatalistic Cerberus.
@TheFootballguy1010 The Bible teachs two things God's sovereignty and Man's responsibility.Luke:22:22 and Acts 4 :27-28.Plesee tell me does Christ intercede on behalf of unbelievers?I ask that last time still waiting for an answer.
@RomansGalatians So you mean, Adam did not have the freedom or the "free will" or the "will to choose" and still DISOBEYED God? Why would God call it DISOBEDIENCE, then, if all that he did was according to the will of God?
And if there is no freedom or the "free will" or the "will to choose" in heaven, why was lucifer and the fallen angels cast out from there? Are you trying to promote that God is the author of EVIL?
@RomansGalatians Before anything else, you are wrong in your concept of " 'free' will." It does not mean we are free from God. We say "free will". It says, you have the will to choose, you are free to choose for yourself. You are not being manipulated by God.
You are wrong when you said that speaking of the condition of "man's will" is misguided. Would you say that after being born again, everything that a man can do is God's will? And of course, that includes some sin.
@RomansGalatians Everyone has his free will, whether he is a lost man or a saved man. And by saying such thing, it does not take away God's sovereignty as some other men, and I guess including you, have as misconception to what we believe. If God HAS GIVEN us the "freedom to choose", does that take away His sovereignty? Absolutely "No." He is sovereign still. He even can stop everything and wipe away the universe with a single display of His might.
So, from what is this "free" will detached? Is it detached from yourself? Free from your addictions, pleasures, desires, dispositions, attitudes? Is it just this completely independent thing, not even remotely tethered to the self and the other faculties of man, such as the mind and emotions?
I mean, if indeed, the "will" is its OWN ENTITY "detached" from my very self, then it is not I who chooses, but rather my will chooses for me! And if so, why am I responsible?
@RomansGalatians I am just saying that instead of the word "free" (which carries with it American connotations of liberty, a good thing), let's use the word "detached" (as in "detached" from the Vine, Biblically).
Detached can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on the Subject of your sentence.
Lane, you should monitor the ads tagged on these videos, or remove ads altogether. Many of them are highly distracting and even offensive at times.. Thanks
Jesus said to Jews, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But you do not believe, because you are NOT MY SHEEP, as I said to you. My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who HAS GIVEN THEM TO ME, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand. - John 10:25 - 29
@DougCameraMan Jesus said that the disbelieving Jews did not believe because they were not his sheep. He never once said that they were not his sheep because they didn't believe. His sheep believe; non-sheep don't believe. Why is there even a debate over this?
To shteve It clearly states that god may grant (cause or give) them repentance. Which is in perfect harmony with the rest of the scriptures. To deny the doctrines of grace or election is to deny the heart and soul of the gospel and bible. And I'm not going to explain your other verses because Jesus himself could prove you wrong and you still would be rejecting it. Let god be god. He can sovereignly choose (as in scripture) whomever he desires , based on nothing but his own will. So may god bless
@TreborJNitram•You won’t answer because you don't know what to say about them. If you start to discuss them you will prove to yourself that Irresistible Grace is a lie, and you are determined to believe it no matter what the evidence.
.."O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often I HAVE LONGED to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing"
Actually you believe it was Jesus who wasn't willing.
@TreborJNitram Well said. The Arminian's problem is that they think God is being unfair if he gives grace and mercy to some while not giving it to everyone. So they want to shift the salvation responsibility away from God and place it with man, and man either making a good decision to believe, or making a bad decision to reject Christ. In their view, salvation is ultimately up to each person, not up to God. Their doctrine appeals to their own ego that they're smart enough to believe.
@DougCameraMan Oh really? Let's talk about doctrine for a moment... where does Calvin's denial of man's free will ultimately lead his theology? It leads to what all those theologians, Protestant and Catholic, then and now, have said it leads and which has NEVER been satisfactorily rebuffed by Calvin or his heirs: In calvinism, the logical end conclusion is that God is the author of sin. No ifs, ors and buts.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones reformed doctrine doesn't deny man's free will, but it proclaims that man's freewill is limited to his nature. The unregenerate man's will is to serve himself, not Christ. To the question of whether God is the author of sin that is a tough one. God made the angels and Adam with enough freewill at the time to go against what God said. Did God know they would disobey him and sin? Most would agree that God knew, but he made them anyway but it will all be ok in the end.
@DougCameraMan Calvin makes it quiet clear in chapter 18 of his Institution... More telling I think is his ambivalent commentary on 2 Peter 3:9, where out of nowhere he starts throwing around this idea of 'God's mystery plan', which is wholly unbiblical. Calvin states further that God WILLS and WILLS NOT evil at the same time. Evil is directed by him, yet MANKIND is to blame for sinning, says Calvin. That does NOT compute.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones I don't go by what Calvin wrote. No man knows it all. god knows everything and is the source of all knowledge. He rules the universe and he is in control of everything. He obviously allows evil because there is evil in the world. The question is why God allows evil when he could have a world where it was not allowed. But then humans would be no more than programmed robots. I think God knows what He's doing. I have full faith that He is doing what's best for us.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Through Adam, sin entered the world. We are born sinners not because we sin, but we are born sinners simply because we are sinners. God allows evil, so that He can be glorified. Take it as, the author allows the story to have a sad emotional first few chapters, just so that the story can have a happy ending. :) That's how I see it.
To shteve This is an example of how you inject your words into the verses to try and prove your unbiical doctrine. They were resisting the holy spirit by persecuting the prophets , who were the work of the holy spirit. That's all . It doesn't say the holy spirit was trying to save them and was unsuccessful . The were killing vessels of the holy spirit . To try to use this verse to refute irresistible grace is reaching. You are trying put something there that's not there.
@TreborJNitram Right, so they Holy Spirit wanted them to treat the prophets nicely but He didn't want them to believe the message His servants were bringing? I can't believe you would even write that. If the Sovereign God of Calvinism didn't want them to kill the prophets then why did He decree that they did? The Holy Spirit convicts men of sin, righteousness & judgement.Jn16. He did this to these men, but they resisted. The apostles proclaimed the message given by the Spirit, but they resisted.
To shteve Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life."
@TreborJNitram Oh, please "As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning......So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?..... they praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."
It doesn't say God made them repent. It says that God gave them the same offer of salvation as the jews. If ther repent they will have life.
To shteve 1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
But you say that he can have faith to bring about salvation.
@TreborJNitram I am not going to answer any more of your new verses until you answer the other three I have been asked you for more than a week now.....
verse 8 is saying that a person is born again (making faith possible) when and where god , through the holy spirit wills it to happen. And you have as much control over it as you do the wind.
To shteve John 3:3, "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
To shteve By persecuting the prophets. That's what it is referring to. It does nay say that the holy spirit was trying to bring about salvation, but it couldn't over power them. Such a thought is silly. Your whole view of salvation is based on man . It's in complete defiance to the bible. Faith is given by god to those whom he sovereignly chooses to give it to. Not based on knowing who was gonna believe, that is nowhere in the scriptures . Simply based on his own will. That's what bible teaches
@TreborJNitram The verse says "You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!". It is clear that these people, like their forefathers are resisting the Holy Spirit. We know historically that most of their Fathers (the Jewish people) perished in their sins because they "resisted the Holy Spirit". Obviously the Holy Spirit wanted them to do something, but they wouldn't. What was it? If the Holy Spirit didn't want them to believe the message of the Gospel that...cont...
@TreborJNitram[..the apostles were proclaiming (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) then how were they resisting the Holy Spirit at all, actually they were doing exactly what the Holy Spirit wanted them to do. The truth is that the Holy Spirit wanted these people to believe the message that was being preached, but the people resisted.
To shteve This verse , Acts 7:51 does not say anything about grace being irresistible. You try to keep using it and it's not worth even explaning. All reformers believe that the holy spirit can be resisted. Everytime we sin we resist the holy spirit. However the scriptures do say that The holy spirit CAN and DOES make his GRACE irresistible at times of his sovereign choosing. Big difference between the outward call and the inward call. Bible is quite clear on that .
1. God in His sovereignty ALLOWS men to accept or refuse the gift of Salvation.
2. Man can take no glory because Christ fullfilled the law on our behalf and offers to save all who call on the Name of the Lord. He did all the work. He simply believe He did all the work. (faith)
3. God is all powerful buy ALLOWS man to reject the Holy Spirit. (Acts7:51 "YOU ALWAYS RESIST THE HOLY SPIRIT". Scripture says men do this, not "my interpretation".
@TreborJNitram I shouldn't call myself a Christian because I don't accept Calvinism? Really? Scripture says to believe on the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved and I assure you I do believe on the Lord Jesus!
Actually I'd prefer not to talk to you about any scriptures after seeing how you treat them . For days i have tried to end the discussion with no success .So it was nice talking to you .
To TALMIDROI I have not lied at all. You however , as your doing right now , are, and have proven to be, a liar. Three different people have rightly accused and proven that you are a liar . On three different occasions. So you have no credibility around here. So it's about time you leave. Adios
To shteve we've discussed plenty of scriptures that you have twisted and rejected so you could deny god's grace . It's unnecessary to go any further. You should study the scriptures that we have already talked about, rather injecting , twisting or taking out of context any others , just to continue a debate.
@TreborJNitram Yes, I'm sure it's 'unnecessary to go any further' for you. You've been saying that for days now but actually you are quite happy to keep discussing as long as it's on the verse you want to talk about, but when I ask you about verses you can't explain suddenly it's 'unnecessary' to keep talking. You're silence on these verses says everything about what you really know to be the truth....
To shteve your scriptures say nothing about god's predestining work to salvation being irresistible. Why would I address them? They don't need addressed because they don't even have the appearance of proving irresistible grace to be wrong .
@TreborJNitram "Why would I address them?" so you can show me how I am 'wrongly' applying these scriptures, but you can't and that's why you won't/. Honestly, at least have the courage to admit you don't know how to answer them. What sort of a discuss is this when you ask questions and expect me to answer them, and over and over I ask the same ones but you just ignore them. The fact you won't even attempt to explain them is very telling......
To shteve continuation : own sovereign will, that the person will undoubtedly be saved. The fact that god has predestined him for salvation is proof enough that it is irresistible. You mean to tell me that there are those whom god has predestined for salvation that are going to resist him and thwart his predetermined plan to set apart his elect. Men are saved because god causes them to be born again so they can believe and once they are born again they most assuredly believe.
@TreborJNitram You keep talking about it being Irresistible, yet you won't discuss the scriptures I quoted showing that it's not.........If Irresistible Grace is true then why don't you address those scriptures and explain how I am reading them wrong and what they really are saying?
To shteve And I have proven to you that all doesn't have to mean every single person. The reason that you believe that grace is irresistible is because you don't really believe in grace. You believe that it is man who arbitrarily chooses to believe in god or not to. You don't believe in the biblical version of god choosing those who will believe. If you knew how salvation worked you would understand that when a person has been predestined for salvation by god according to the purpose of his...
To Tamiroid you are just upset that you have proven yourself to be a liar. Not only that but you are a heretic, false teacher and have attempted to take remove god's sovereignty.
To shteve Matthew 20:28 “Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.” wonder why he never said all? Many verses like this.
I have showed you wrong. Yea the verses are there , but your interpretation of them are wrong . Same as you have added that god predestined based on foreknowledge of who would believe. Just adding your own commentary again. Stop imposing your arminian ,worldly idea of god into the scriptures
@TreborJNitram You have all ready said that a few days ago and as I said then, many can be used to show a large number, including all as it does in these verses.
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt."Dan12:2
"For if the many died by the trespass of the one man"Rom5:15 (Did only some die because of Adam's sin? No! All did!)
it's pretty simple. There's no mystery. It's because you have twisted the scriptures we have looked at so bad to fit what you want it to say, that there's no need to go any further.
@TreborJNitram Right! I am the one twisting scriptures, because I say when God says Christ tasted death for "everyone" He meant "everyone", not some. Or when God says He "wants all men to be saved", He actually meant what He said. All I did with those 4 passages was paste the verses & let them speak for themselves. Those passages are in the Bible, God put them there. They disprove Calvinism and you know it so you won't discuss them. If you thought you could show me wrong you would do it.
Deut. 7:9? Your joking right? Thats the verse your gonna use to prove that god predestines those to salvation based on his knowing that they will believe in him?
@TreborJNitram I'm saying that Deut. 7:7-10 tell us that there is a reason why God would love a person. There is a reason why God elects a person...
Rom 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good TO THEM THAT LOVE GOD, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did FOREKNOW, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren..."
1Pe 1:2 Elect ACCORDING to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
This foreknowledge of those WHO LOVED GOD(Rom. 8:28) is the basis of His election... And that's JUSTICE.
He predestined all those who god elected , those who foreknew who would trust in him and Jesus Christ from the beginning to the end,to be conformed to the image of his son. Show me where this verse is . These are your words that you have injected into the verses and then try to pass them off as scriptures. True liar. Show me the verse that says god elects those he knew would trust in him.
@TreborJNitram Deu 7:7 "The LORD DID NOT set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples.
Deu 7:8 But it was because the LORD loved you and KEPT THE OATH HE SWORE to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
@TreborJNitram Deu 7:9 "Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the FAITHFUL God, KEEPING HIS COVENANT OF LOVE to a thousand generations OF THOSE WHO LOVE HIM and KEEP HIS COMMANDS
Deu 7:10 "But those who hate him he will repay to their face by destruction; he will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate him.."
@TreborJNitram Notice that in Deut. 7:9, we must LOVE GOD and KEEP HIS COMMANDS. There... God based His foreknowledge also with that concept... He loved the elect because He knew beforehand that these people will love Him and obey His commands.
Calvinism is a doctrine of Satan (the Devil).
dandom01 2 weeks ago
@dandom01
People who say such things usually have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.
Keruaran 6 days ago
@dandom01
In fact, I don't think you even watched this video.
Keruaran 6 days ago
Walls free-willism is problematic, but Ware the Neo-Cal does not understand the distinction between sovereignty and predestination, and conjoins them. Sovereignty is "dominion" whereas predestination is "action." While absolute predestination requires absolute sovereignty, absolute sovereignty does not require absolute predestination. In fact absolute sovereignty, of necessity, includes the authority to not predestine, else it is subservient to predestination and not absolutely sovereign.
theearstohear 2 weeks ago
Norman Geisler watched this video and his head exploded.
saintoccasionally 3 weeks ago
@saintoccasionally
Heh, indeed. But isn't it funny how some of us are delighted at eloquent and scriptural illustrations of the sovereignty will of God in action through men who according to their own hearts desires chose to do what they did, while others are offended? I don't know if people simply misunderstand or they really have set up an idol in their hearts that isn't the God of the Bible...
Keruaran 6 days ago
I have been born again since July 2003, recently maybe in the last year though, I have become a universalist, because I truly believe in my heart that we all shall be in Heaven by hook or crook.
xhemexx 1 month ago
@xhemexx Arminians and Calvinist have beautiful theologies:A-God desires the salvation of everyone(Arminian);B-God is sovereign therefore he will accomplish all that he desires(Calvinist).If God desires the salvation of everyone and he has the power to accomplish this desire,dosen't it seem logical that he will save everyone? Isn't the combination of A and B Biblical Universalism? Because both believe in eternal hell they are forced to reject or explain away each other's theology
741rjohnson 1 month ago
@741rjohnson I would like to speak with you sometime. Do you have skype?
ArthurCorp1 4 weeks ago
@ArthurCorp1 No but you can reach me on face book. rjohnson741. Or we can comment on youtube.
741rjohnson 4 weeks ago
@741rjohnson I just tried finding you on FB and I wasn't able to. can you find me? rafrye8178@yahoo.com
ArthurCorp1 4 weeks ago
@ArthurCorp1 My e-mail adress is rjohnson741@yahoo.com
741rjohnson 4 weeks ago
@741rjohnson can you add me on FB? RAFrye8178@yahoo.com
ArthurCorp1 3 weeks ago
Does this mean that God has no free will either, since all of his actions are also pre-determined?
MGCAUSTIN4 1 month ago
@MGCAUSTIN4 I would like to speak with you about God's free will. Find me on FB RAFrye8178@yahoo.com
ArthurCorp1 4 weeks ago
Is this a joke?
gpgbrusa 2 months ago
How frustrating are these people that don't believe that God predestines all things. Did they understand this video? I understand their concerns but they are thinking according to their own standards not God’s standard. What’s more they are speaking nonsense on stilts!!!
BeholdTheCross 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@BeholdTheCross I have this whole debate and the Arminian side was faced with some strong truth by the end.It just seems like when these kinds of debates happen people just root for their own side and not listen to the arguments close enough.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
Everyone has free will. EVERY single person CHOOSES to rebel, disobey, sin against God and go their own way. God has to intervene and save the lost. That's the beauty of grace and nobody deserves it.
MasterOranda 3 months ago
If there is no such thing as free will then God is the author of sin. Simple as that.
CASchram 3 months ago
@CASchram That's only if He causes sin. He merely allows it in His sovereignty.
bloodisbleach 3 months ago
All of our choices and decisions are based on our desires and a result of prior experiences. In order for free will to have any validity, our choices would have to be made by random selection with no thought for why we are making any decision.
JesusIsTheOneWay 3 months ago
@JesusIsTheOneWay
umm...where does our ability to reason and our God-given consciences fit in with your statement?? If we were simply machines made of meat, I'd agree with what you wrote, but we're not.
We are God's image bearers, please don't denigrate some of His best work!
rntlee 3 months ago
@rntlee Most creatures appear to have some ability to reason but lets not give humans more credit than we deserve. Yes, we have some ability to make decisions, too, but the scriptures say that humans are born in sin and that all are sinners and fall short. Nowhere does scripture say that men are born without sin, righteous, and able to come to Christ without the help of God. Believers who have been saved by God's grace are indeed some of God's "best work" but you ain't seen nothing yet!
JesusIsTheOneWay 3 months ago
These men argue and use philosophy while working with the builders. Just like Satan they use their knowledge to entice, with their fancy five point doctrines from men. They make new a covenant that God made obsolete, in their own terms they choose Jews over Jesus. Don't be a Calvinist! Seek the Lord in heaven Christ Yeshua.
TheOringinalBRad 4 months ago
Calvinists are not Christians. They follow the devil.
wellsbranchdude 4 months ago
@wellsbranchdude you are an idiot
xVerdictsx 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
To ARMINIANS -Romans 11:32 "for God has shut up all to unbelief, that he might have mercy on all".
To CALVINISTS -1 Timothy 4:10"for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of ALL MEN ESPECIALLY y of those believing."
DOUBTERS I Cor. 15:23-28"But every man in his own order:..For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet..last enemy...destroyed is DEATH... Son also Himself be subject unto Him..that God may be ALL IN ALL"
motibi 5 months ago
VTEC
lambotwinturbo 5 months ago
wrong
trojantboneguy 5 months ago
Favorited.
patrckhh20 5 months ago
Gee, I guess this libertarian free will thing has a few unintended consequences . . .
Like the infallibility of God's word.
Awesome argument!
Bill244888 6 months ago
Wow...check mate
HeReformedMe 6 months ago
the harder it is to come out especially when one is not Born Again. It's the spirit of religion that blinds the eyes of the heart that is so deceiving, it's a damnable road.
TheKJVberean 6 months ago
@Strefanasha In other words, what I'm saying is they will never understand you nor the scripture in which they read, they will and do twist it to make it fit their false gospel. It's an "intellectual" gospel in which takes away "the simplicity in Christ." Unless people have had the Born-Again experience of an INDIVIDUAL free will choice to believe in Jesus Christ, surrendering to Him after that which God has drawn them, then your almost wasting time, the more ppl get enriched into false doctrine
TheKJVberean 6 months ago
@Strefanasha Calvinist's will never understand, they love Romans 9 but they never actually read the entirety of the Bible to understand that chapter. And yes, Calvin was a tyrant - hated his brother to the point of death. Wrought forth a damnable gospel that is leading millions astray, this is a perfect example of Satan coming "as an angel of light." Many "calvinists" aren't saved, they have head knowledge of their "Jesus" but they never had a surrender to Christ, no Holy Ghost discernment.
TheKJVberean 6 months ago
Well I Love the God blessings
emilio57702 7 months ago
wow. His point on the Bible and God's sovereignty towards the end of the video is so true! Never thought of it...
baconbits411 8 months ago
even if the will is fallen, which it is, i will never deny its freedom.
I dont care if you calvinists hate paradox that much, that is a sign of small minds and small faith.
the will is free AND fallen. i cant resolve this parardox any more than i can resolve the trinity.
I asuggest you get over it and accept the paradox, for it wil not go away just because of your vain and arrogant reasoning.
the human will is FREE AND FALLEN
Strefanasha 8 months ago
@Strefanasha then you would have to explain how NO ONE is ABLE to come to jesus unless the Father draws him. John 6:44 NO ONE CAN. It is Gods will.
ArthurCorp1 8 months ago
@Strefanasha The Trinity is not a paradox - it is an eternal, single entity containing three personalities. The titles of Father, Son and Spirit reflect the roles each Person of the Trinity has in their eternal relationship.
Read Romans 6:16-23. Paul makes it clear human 'freedom' is an illusion. We are slaves either to sin (our natural state), or slaves to righteousness through the undeserved Grace of God the Holy Spirit.
Your 'freedom' means God is not free, which is not the Biblical witness.
curvalecce 7 months ago
@curvalecce you calvinsts are it seems incapable of viewing god's sovereignty except in the crudest terms.
"If you are free God is not" WHAT UTTER NONSENSE.
God's sovereignty is SO transcendant, his mastery so deep, his wisdom so insearchable that He is absolute soverieign of created beings with free will.
if you want to follow the doctrines of a man who viewed sovereignty in terms of 16th century tyrants, ie Calvin, be my guest
Strefanasha 7 months ago
@Strefanasha Leaving Isaiah 46:9-10, Romans 9:16-18 and Proverbs 16:33 to one side, I wonder how your concept of creaturely 'freedom' can deal with the prophecy of Christ' death in Isaiah 53? Surely, if all creatures are utterly 'free' in their choices, it must be logically possible for God's plans to fail - and yet Peter explains in Acts 4:27-28 how God's plan was fulfilled.
I'm not even going to ask you to explain Ephesians 1:3-6 or Revelation 13:8, but I would recommend you consider them.
curvalecce 7 months ago
@Strefanasha Haha. 16th Century tyrants? Seriously? Are you a Christian? You know that you're talking about your brother in Christ right? I would also really like to understand what you actually know about reformed soteriology. I also am 100% positive that you have no more of a greater understanding of God's sovereignty than a Calvinist does. Please, put your arrogance aside brother. We can have these discussions without resorting to slander and crude rebuttals. Show some maturity.
xrevisex 6 months ago
because i denied free will as a hard derministic atheist, and denied moral responsiblity as a result, I will NEVER, as a christian, deny free will.
I will NEVER as a christian be a calvinist. preach all you like, moral accountability is the irreducible core of the thing, and free will is the irreduciible core of accountability.
you calvinists can define free will out of existence all you like i will NEVER go there.
i remember the hell of nihilism as from my determinism, to EVER follow you.
Strefanasha 8 months ago
@Stref.. Do you know you are quoting Romans 9:19? You are asking "If I do a thing, but did not use my free will to do it, then how can I be held accountable?" OR as Paul says it "One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" The argument being made against Paul is that if God is sovereign over men as Paul is asserting, then how could God blame us when it is HIS will that we are doing. Paul answers "But who are you Strefanasha to talk back to God?"
rolysantos 8 months ago
@rolysantos but God does blame us. and man can and does resist God's will.
itis you who have inverted the sense of Paul
Strefanasha 7 months ago
to confuse free will with arbitrary choice is straw man fallacy.
if there is no free wil there is no moral accountability.,
PERIOD
Strefanasha 8 months ago
@MRGV7373, Job didn't go west???? You are thinking of Jonah
dsullfbc 9 months ago
I think that this lecture shows that God can use human sinful choices to greater good for the human race. God can use anything to the greater good and godly plans. God in the end will get what God plans. Gods will in the end will not be stopped by human behaviors. How about Job ?? He tried to not follow God and went west, and God put him into a whale and then Job was ready to trust God. God will not be stopped.
MRGV7373 9 months ago
One essential biblical point is that God changes hearts. Indeed, that is the quality about Him that makes Him able to save, where human hands are not capable. That is the quality that makes Him Savior!
He takes out a heart of stone and puts in a heart of flesh.
Yet, Arminians claim that "love by definition, requires free will." Yet how could someone with a heart of stone love and choose Jesus? This Arminian view renders God powerless to do the one thing that only He can do! Save!
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
So God has this "latent" power, kind of like a "potential" power, but He lays back and allows the will of man to forge into the future?
How did he fulfull His prophecies? Or are you saying that they weren't "fulfilled" with His wonder-working power, but rather God was a passive fortune teller?
Oops, I got a meeting, talk to you a little later.
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@RomansGalatians Are you saying that God also is the author of evil?
TalmidRoi 9 months ago
@TalmidRoi Hey, I just typed a response, but responded to myself instead, lol.
But the conclusion of my prior comment is this:
Those two principles seem to contradict, but there is a reason why they are not incompatible. It takes some faith and some digging to find out why they are not illogical. But first, you must surrender your own assumptions, and rather, let your reasoning flow from the WORD and not your own assumptions. That is what the Word says, cope with it, don't criticize it!
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@RomansGalatians And let me comment on this. I based my reasoning from the Word of God. I even shown you Scriptures to back up my statements. And I don't criticize the Word of God. I only criticize doctrines that do the following:
a. make God a puppeteer who wills and predestines some men (elect) to go to heaven and some men to be burnt in hell
b. take God's love and justice away by manipulating men by sending "irresistible grace"
c. make God the author of evil and sin
d. make men puppets
TalmidRoi 9 months ago
@TalmidRoi OK, let me say this, a robot is made by man. It is under the control of its maker. Now, for one man to claim to be the maker of another man, and to control another man is a bad thing.
But again, those truths applicable when another man is the subject of the sentence do not hold true when God is the subject.
God IS our Maker. We have nothing that He didn't give us. We are pots to Him. He IS in control.
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@TalmidRoi You might want to ask your "friend" JackWolf (in sheep's clothing) whether he believes in the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity.
He doesn't. (even though, he will try to avoid a straight "yes" or "no" answer to the question if you ask him).
You might want to be carefull about what pack you run in.
Just an observation, I'm not trying to be snotty, just helpful.
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@RomansGalatians JackWolf is not my friend and I'm not running with him. I don't even know him. If you ask me if I believe in the doctrine of Trinity, I would say yes to that. And don't equate me with him. I think, almost everyone has a differing belief on doctrines.
TalmidRoi 9 months ago
@RomansGalatians hmmm
TalmidRoi 9 months ago
Everyone has a will. I like for mine to be bound. Bound to God. I fully submit and am perfectly fine with that.
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@RomansGalatians Are you now perfect and do not sin?
TalmidRoi 9 months ago
@TalmidRoi You know, the Bible does say that a saved man does not sin. I'd have to find that reference. I don't really know what it means, but I do know that I do things against God's law all the time.
But, again, I think that the word "sin" has a different biblical meaning than what the average Joe would call sin.
I have heard people say that we shouldn't view sin as little actions against the law, but as Sin with a capital S, and that has been crucified to the cross.
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@RomansGalatians Frankly, I don't really have all the answers, and I am a little rusty on these arguments (I've been debating Creation against Evolutionists lately).
But, simply, I find the idea of a will, untethered and detached from self, as an untennable idea. I mean whether Calvinism is true or no, I just cannot logically grasp the idea of a "detached" will, that acts independently of my own mind and emotions. How would I be responisble, if this undetached thing acted on its own?
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@RomansGalatians Really, I don't really try to reason on my own, when I find that the Word is clearly stating principles contrary to my feeble "reasoning."
I know of two very strong Christian principles:
1) Sinners are powerless over their sin. (If they could quit sinning on their own, why would they need a Savior to deliver them from sin. Why couldn't man just deliver himself with his own hands?),
YET,
2) Sinners are responsible for that Sin.
Incompatible with logic?
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@RomansGalatians I think you are not like those other Calvinists. I found you humble and not irritating. I hope you would not take away this impression from me.
Actually, I really believe that there's a logic on this. 1) Sinners are powerless over their sin. [It's because of the sin of one man that we are all dead spiritually. Rom. 5:12.] 2) Sinners are responsible for that Sin because of what Adam did. We inherited death through Adam and that is why we too are sinners and then comes Rom. 3:23.
TalmidRoi 9 months ago
@TalmidRoi Thanks bro, and no, you are very cool and not abrasive,too. I think that the questions that you ask, are sincere questions, and I don't really have good answers for them. But that does not keep me from holding onto the truth that I do know.
The way that I think about it is in terms of "horizontal" relationships among men, and "vertical" relationship with God. When we speak of men, for example, it would be a sin to worship another man, it is good to be independent from other men . .
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@TalmidRoi we shouldn't fear other men. But when it comes to a "vertical" relationship with God, all of those truths about men are just the opposite!: for example, it is holy and good to worship God, we seek for the humility to know our great weakness and depend wholly on God, and fear of God is a good thing.
So, depending on what one's "truth" is in relation to, two contradicting things can be true, if the subject of the sentence is different. Do you kinda see what I mean?
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@RomansGalatians Yes, I understand where you are at. But do you really believe that, with regards to your concept of "truth", God is both the author of sin and the Savior of sinners?
TalmidRoi 9 months ago
@TalmidRoi Well, no, God is not the Creator of Sin. Genesis says that His Creation was "good", not sinful.
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@RomansGalatians Okay. But Calvin, if you really look very closely to his theology, it seemed that he is saying that God purposed everything, even evil and sin. Am I right? And also, if God is not the creator of Sin, then it's like saying that Adam has the freedom to choose sin. And also, like Adam's previous "holy" state, saved persons have also the possibility of committing sin if we walk according to the flesh and not according to the Spirit.
TalmidRoi 9 months ago
@TalmidRoi I guess one of my main concepts is this: Sin is not an action, or a bunch of little actions. Yes, that is how it is manifest.
However, essentially, SIN IS A MATTER OF THE HEART. A sin can be an actionless thought. To "covet" is to break the 10 Commandments.
A saved person has their heart of stone removed and a heart of flesh installed, and his the penalty for his Sin is nailed to the cross.
We need to BIBLICALLY define: "sin, man, free, will, etc."
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@RomansGalatians If you suggest 1John 3:8 as the reference, it does not really say that a saved man does not sin even once because if it really does it contradicts the other chapter of the same book, 1John 2:1. The Bible is clear that many people who once are saved have already turned to satan and backslid. And this would mean that what you are saying, that we don't have the "freedom to choose" and all that we do is bound to the will of God once we are saved, is really false.
TalmidRoi 9 months ago
@TalmidRoi In response to your previous post. First, let me say that the purpose of the law was never to obey every bit of it. Rather, the purpose of the law was to humble us, and show us that we CANNOT possibly obey every bit of it. Thus, in despair of ever reaching heaven on the strength of our own hands, we throw ourselves at the foot of the cross and ask for MERCY.
A saved person is delivered from the penalty of the law, and that Sin was paid in a single event 2000 years ago.
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@RomansGalatians Hmm... I totally disagree with you on saying that a person is delivered from the "penalty" of the law, which I think you mean for further saying "the law of sin." The Bible did not say it that way. We are free from the penalty of sin when we are in Christ and do not sin. But if we do not keep Jesus' commandments, we do not abide in Him, 1Jn3:24, (we are not in Christ) and thus we are not saved. We must repent of our sins and come again to Jesus.
TalmidRoi 9 months ago
@TalmidRoi Well, I just think that your last comment is legalistic.
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@RomansGalatians Well, if you think I'm a legalist, then John the apostle is also a legalist. Am I right?
1John 3:24, "And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him..."
And one of his commandments, which is given through John, is do not hate your brother. And 1Jn3:15 says, "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."
So am I still a legalist?
TalmidRoi 9 months ago
@RomansGalatians Also, keep in mind that the Mosaic Law is not equal to Jesus' commandments. When John says keep His commands, he refers to the commandments of Jesus Christ, not the Mosaic Law.
Legalism is when you keep the Mosaic Law to get salvation.
TalmidRoi 9 months ago
@TalmidRoi Well, some people go to church, say all the right things, pay their tithe, but they are not saved. Even some people have recited a sinners prayer, but there was no change in their heart.
When a person is saved, he will have fruits consistent with salvation. That is what 1Jn 3:24 was saying: Don't let your heart deceive you to think that you are saved, when one is not.
Read it the other way: "People who are really saved change" NOT "change yourself to earn salvation."
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@TalmidRoi That's how the Pharisees were. They went to synagogue, paid tithes, prayed (publicly and loudly), but were not saved.
Instead of saying, "God, I cannot do this on my own" and throw themselves on God's mercy.
They said, "God, I will show you how I can forge my own salvation with my own hands."
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@TalmidRoi 1Jn3:24 is a test to tell us whether we are really saved or not, true! But, of course, I am a Calvinist, and I believe that once saved, always saved.
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@RomansGalatians Well, everything unfolds according to God's providence, but I don't think Calvin said that God created Sin. Rather sin is the lack of something, not a thing itself. Calvin also believed that man has a will.
Hey, can I suggest a three part series. You can give me a youtube homework assignment, too. It just explains where I am coming from so much better than I can.
The series is Mark Kielar's "To The Praise of the Glory of My Free Will . . " Simple, clear and concise.
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@RomansGalatians Okay. I'll check on that later... If you want to know what I really believe, check out Dan Corner's page.
I really think that TULIP was formulated and designed thoroughly to defend the "P" on it. So that's it.
God bless! Just trust in Jesus and keep away from sin. I think this is our common ground.
TalmidRoi 9 months ago
@TalmidRoi Cool, I'll check it out bro. (I believe that Arminians are saved, but they are stingy with giving up ALL the credit to God.) Take care.
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@TalmidRoi Whoa, I just checked out some of that Dan Corner stuff. No way!
So, let me ask the same question that you asked of me?
Are you perfect and without any sinful actions in your life? Even thoughts like lust and covetousness?
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@TalmidRoi After watching Dan Corner, let me ask: Why did you ask me: "Are you now perfect and do not sin?" Were you trying to disprove my salvation? Was that really your legalistic intent?
Are you contending that YOU are perfect and that YOU are without sin?
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
This is my question for the Calvinist. Who died for your sins? Jesus Christ did, not John Calvin. If Calvinism claims to be the gospel of "Grace" then why did he have so many people executed for disagreeing with him? Also why would God choose a select "few" over others? What qualifies the elect to be saved then the non elect? Calvinism is the exact doctrine that Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist church teaches. I don't see any grace in that. Sorry.
TheFootballguy1010 10 months ago
@TheFootballguy1010 Why would God choose anyone at all sir?No one deserves God's grace and Calvin's character as little to do with noyhing.Ad hominem arguments don't fly.Answer me one question who are the ones propitiated by the death of Christ? and for whome does He intercede?
jeffpoet 10 months ago
@jeffpoet Answer me this... as Calvin wrote in chapter 18 of his Institution... If God not only allows, but directs evil, and man itself has no free will whatsoever, where exactly lies the cause of said evil? Please give a better answer than Calvin gave his opponents... you know: "Well, yeah, God does create evil... but he is not responsible... man is... even though man has no free will." Servetus was right... the god of calvinism is a three-headed, fatalistic Cerberus.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 9 months ago
@TheFootballguy1010 The Bible teachs two things God's sovereignty and Man's responsibility.Luke:22:22 and Acts 4 :27-28.Plesee tell me does Christ intercede on behalf of unbelievers?I ask that last time still waiting for an answer.
jeffpoet 9 months ago
Free will? Free from what? From what, exactly, does the Arminian want to be detached.
RomansGalatians 10 months ago
For the Arminian, freedom is not possible without evil. Is there freedom in Heaven?
It just seems Ying Yang to me: freedom is in a mutually dependent relationship with evil.
Freedom apparently is defined as detached from God. It might be better if we just concentrated on a definition of freedom as: Detached from Sin.
RomansGalatians 10 months ago
@RomansGalatians So you mean, Adam did not have the freedom or the "free will" or the "will to choose" and still DISOBEYED God? Why would God call it DISOBEDIENCE, then, if all that he did was according to the will of God?
And if there is no freedom or the "free will" or the "will to choose" in heaven, why was lucifer and the fallen angels cast out from there? Are you trying to promote that God is the author of EVIL?
TalmidRoi 9 months ago
@TalmidRoi Well, to speak of the condition of "man's" will is misguided. Because, it matters which "men" you speak.
Are you speaking of elect men after salvation, elect men before salvation, damned men on earth, saved men in heaven, or damned men in hell?
And when you say "free" will, from what is that man free?
An unsaved man is a slave to Sin. A saved man is a slave to God.
An unsaved man is "free" from God. A saved man is "free" from Sin.
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@RomansGalatians Before anything else, you are wrong in your concept of " 'free' will." It does not mean we are free from God. We say "free will". It says, you have the will to choose, you are free to choose for yourself. You are not being manipulated by God.
You are wrong when you said that speaking of the condition of "man's will" is misguided. Would you say that after being born again, everything that a man can do is God's will? And of course, that includes some sin.
TalmidRoi 9 months ago
@RomansGalatians Everyone has his free will, whether he is a lost man or a saved man. And by saying such thing, it does not take away God's sovereignty as some other men, and I guess including you, have as misconception to what we believe. If God HAS GIVEN us the "freedom to choose", does that take away His sovereignty? Absolutely "No." He is sovereign still. He even can stop everything and wipe away the universe with a single display of His might.
TalmidRoi 9 months ago
@TalmidRoi OK, I'm back.
So, from what is this "free" will detached? Is it detached from yourself? Free from your addictions, pleasures, desires, dispositions, attitudes? Is it just this completely independent thing, not even remotely tethered to the self and the other faculties of man, such as the mind and emotions?
I mean, if indeed, the "will" is its OWN ENTITY "detached" from my very self, then it is not I who chooses, but rather my will chooses for me! And if so, why am I responsible?
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
@RomansGalatians I am just saying that instead of the word "free" (which carries with it American connotations of liberty, a good thing), let's use the word "detached" (as in "detached" from the Vine, Biblically).
Detached can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on the Subject of your sentence.
RomansGalatians 9 months ago
Lane, you should monitor the ads tagged on these videos, or remove ads altogether. Many of them are highly distracting and even offensive at times.. Thanks
speakthetruthplease1 10 months ago
Jesus said to Jews, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But you do not believe, because you are NOT MY SHEEP, as I said to you. My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who HAS GIVEN THEM TO ME, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand. - John 10:25 - 29
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan Jesus said that the disbelieving Jews did not believe because they were not his sheep. He never once said that they were not his sheep because they didn't believe. His sheep believe; non-sheep don't believe. Why is there even a debate over this?
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
To shteve It clearly states that god may grant (cause or give) them repentance. Which is in perfect harmony with the rest of the scriptures. To deny the doctrines of grace or election is to deny the heart and soul of the gospel and bible. And I'm not going to explain your other verses because Jesus himself could prove you wrong and you still would be rejecting it. Let god be god. He can sovereignly choose (as in scripture) whomever he desires , based on nothing but his own will. So may god bless
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
Comment removed
shteve77 11 months ago
Comment removed
shteve77 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram•You won’t answer because you don't know what to say about them. If you start to discuss them you will prove to yourself that Irresistible Grace is a lie, and you are determined to believe it no matter what the evidence.
.."O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often I HAVE LONGED to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing"
Actually you believe it was Jesus who wasn't willing.
shteve77 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram Well said. The Arminian's problem is that they think God is being unfair if he gives grace and mercy to some while not giving it to everyone. So they want to shift the salvation responsibility away from God and place it with man, and man either making a good decision to believe, or making a bad decision to reject Christ. In their view, salvation is ultimately up to each person, not up to God. Their doctrine appeals to their own ego that they're smart enough to believe.
DougCameraMan 10 months ago
@DougCameraMan Oh really? Let's talk about doctrine for a moment... where does Calvin's denial of man's free will ultimately lead his theology? It leads to what all those theologians, Protestant and Catholic, then and now, have said it leads and which has NEVER been satisfactorily rebuffed by Calvin or his heirs: In calvinism, the logical end conclusion is that God is the author of sin. No ifs, ors and buts.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 9 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones reformed doctrine doesn't deny man's free will, but it proclaims that man's freewill is limited to his nature. The unregenerate man's will is to serve himself, not Christ. To the question of whether God is the author of sin that is a tough one. God made the angels and Adam with enough freewill at the time to go against what God said. Did God know they would disobey him and sin? Most would agree that God knew, but he made them anyway but it will all be ok in the end.
DougCameraMan 9 months ago
@DougCameraMan Calvin makes it quiet clear in chapter 18 of his Institution... More telling I think is his ambivalent commentary on 2 Peter 3:9, where out of nowhere he starts throwing around this idea of 'God's mystery plan', which is wholly unbiblical. Calvin states further that God WILLS and WILLS NOT evil at the same time. Evil is directed by him, yet MANKIND is to blame for sinning, says Calvin. That does NOT compute.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 9 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones I don't go by what Calvin wrote. No man knows it all. god knows everything and is the source of all knowledge. He rules the universe and he is in control of everything. He obviously allows evil because there is evil in the world. The question is why God allows evil when he could have a world where it was not allowed. But then humans would be no more than programmed robots. I think God knows what He's doing. I have full faith that He is doing what's best for us.
DougCameraMan 9 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Through Adam, sin entered the world. We are born sinners not because we sin, but we are born sinners simply because we are sinners. God allows evil, so that He can be glorified. Take it as, the author allows the story to have a sad emotional first few chapters, just so that the story can have a happy ending. :) That's how I see it.
rainbowcicak 9 months ago
To shteve This is an example of how you inject your words into the verses to try and prove your unbiical doctrine. They were resisting the holy spirit by persecuting the prophets , who were the work of the holy spirit. That's all . It doesn't say the holy spirit was trying to save them and was unsuccessful . The were killing vessels of the holy spirit . To try to use this verse to refute irresistible grace is reaching. You are trying put something there that's not there.
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram Right, so they Holy Spirit wanted them to treat the prophets nicely but He didn't want them to believe the message His servants were bringing? I can't believe you would even write that. If the Sovereign God of Calvinism didn't want them to kill the prophets then why did He decree that they did? The Holy Spirit convicts men of sin, righteousness & judgement.Jn16. He did this to these men, but they resisted. The apostles proclaimed the message given by the Spirit, but they resisted.
shteve77 11 months ago
To shteve Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life."
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram Oh, please "As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning......So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?..... they praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."
It doesn't say God made them repent. It says that God gave them the same offer of salvation as the jews. If ther repent they will have life.
shteve77 11 months ago
To shteve 2 Timothy 2:25 ... God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
To shteve 1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
But you say that he can have faith to bring about salvation.
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram I am not going to answer any more of your new verses until you answer the other three I have been asked you for more than a week now.....
shteve77 11 months ago
To shteve
verse 8 is saying that a person is born again (making faith possible) when and where god , through the holy spirit wills it to happen. And you have as much control over it as you do the wind.
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
To shteve John 3:3, "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
To shteve
John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;"
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
To shteve By persecuting the prophets. That's what it is referring to. It does nay say that the holy spirit was trying to bring about salvation, but it couldn't over power them. Such a thought is silly. Your whole view of salvation is based on man . It's in complete defiance to the bible. Faith is given by god to those whom he sovereignly chooses to give it to. Not based on knowing who was gonna believe, that is nowhere in the scriptures . Simply based on his own will. That's what bible teaches
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram The verse says "You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!". It is clear that these people, like their forefathers are resisting the Holy Spirit. We know historically that most of their Fathers (the Jewish people) perished in their sins because they "resisted the Holy Spirit". Obviously the Holy Spirit wanted them to do something, but they wouldn't. What was it? If the Holy Spirit didn't want them to believe the message of the Gospel that...cont...
shteve77 11 months ago
Comment removed
shteve77 11 months ago
Comment removed
shteve77 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram[..the apostles were proclaiming (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) then how were they resisting the Holy Spirit at all, actually they were doing exactly what the Holy Spirit wanted them to do. The truth is that the Holy Spirit wanted these people to believe the message that was being preached, but the people resisted.
shteve77 11 months ago
To shteve And how was there fathers resisting the holy spirit?
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
To shteve This verse , Acts 7:51 does not say anything about grace being irresistible. You try to keep using it and it's not worth even explaning. All reformers believe that the holy spirit can be resisted. Everytime we sin we resist the holy spirit. However the scriptures do say that The holy spirit CAN and DOES make his GRACE irresistible at times of his sovereign choosing. Big difference between the outward call and the inward call. Bible is quite clear on that .
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram Scripture says, "YOU ARE JUST LIKE YOUR FATHER'S, YOU ALWAYS RESIST THE HOLY SPIRIT".
That's not worth explaining if you claim that the Holy Spirit's conviction is Irresistible?.......
shteve77 11 months ago
To shteve
Keep this in mind . Your interpretation of the bible .
1. Makes man sovereign in salvation instead of god.
2. Gives man some glory in salvation because in himself he was able to have faith and cause his salvation. Making it a salvation based on works.
3. Makes man more powerful than god because he can reject the holy spirit.
4. Makes god a victim of man's choice.
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram No:
1. God in His sovereignty ALLOWS men to accept or refuse the gift of Salvation.
2. Man can take no glory because Christ fullfilled the law on our behalf and offers to save all who call on the Name of the Lord. He did all the work. He simply believe He did all the work. (faith)
3. God is all powerful buy ALLOWS man to reject the Holy Spirit. (Acts7:51 "YOU ALWAYS RESIST THE HOLY SPIRIT". Scripture says men do this, not "my interpretation".
shteve77 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram..
4. You sacrifice God's love and justice at the hands of your interpretation of what His sovereignty should be like.
If you still maintain that men cannot resist the Holy Spirit and Grace is Irresistible then answer those questions.........
shteve77 11 months ago
To shteve Yea , and If you deny the scriptures as bad as you have you probably shouldn't call yourself a Christian.
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram I shouldn't call myself a Christian because I don't accept Calvinism? Really? Scripture says to believe on the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved and I assure you I do believe on the Lord Jesus!
shteve77 11 months ago
To shteve yea because I just can't handle your barrage of scriptures.
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram If you can't answer peoples simple questions from scripture on here then you probably should refrain from commenting.
shteve77 11 months ago
To shteve
Actually I'd prefer not to talk to you about any scriptures after seeing how you treat them . For days i have tried to end the discussion with no success .So it was nice talking to you .
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram Yes, it's evident that you'de prefer not to talk to me about any scriptures and we both know why.....
shteve77 11 months ago
To TALMIDROI I have not lied at all. You however , as your doing right now , are, and have proven to be, a liar. Three different people have rightly accused and proven that you are a liar . On three different occasions. So you have no credibility around here. So it's about time you leave. Adios
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
To shteve we've discussed plenty of scriptures that you have twisted and rejected so you could deny god's grace . It's unnecessary to go any further. You should study the scriptures that we have already talked about, rather injecting , twisting or taking out of context any others , just to continue a debate.
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram Yes, I'm sure it's 'unnecessary to go any further' for you. You've been saying that for days now but actually you are quite happy to keep discussing as long as it's on the verse you want to talk about, but when I ask you about verses you can't explain suddenly it's 'unnecessary' to keep talking. You're silence on these verses says everything about what you really know to be the truth....
shteve77 11 months ago
To shteve your scriptures say nothing about god's predestining work to salvation being irresistible. Why would I address them? They don't need addressed because they don't even have the appearance of proving irresistible grace to be wrong .
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram "Why would I address them?" so you can show me how I am 'wrongly' applying these scriptures, but you can't and that's why you won't/. Honestly, at least have the courage to admit you don't know how to answer them. What sort of a discuss is this when you ask questions and expect me to answer them, and over and over I ask the same ones but you just ignore them. The fact you won't even attempt to explain them is very telling......
shteve77 11 months ago
Unless a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of god
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
To shteve continuation : own sovereign will, that the person will undoubtedly be saved. The fact that god has predestined him for salvation is proof enough that it is irresistible. You mean to tell me that there are those whom god has predestined for salvation that are going to resist him and thwart his predetermined plan to set apart his elect. Men are saved because god causes them to be born again so they can believe and once they are born again they most assuredly believe.
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram You keep talking about it being Irresistible, yet you won't discuss the scriptures I quoted showing that it's not.........If Irresistible Grace is true then why don't you address those scriptures and explain how I am reading them wrong and what they really are saying?
shteve77 11 months ago
To shteve And I have proven to you that all doesn't have to mean every single person. The reason that you believe that grace is irresistible is because you don't really believe in grace. You believe that it is man who arbitrarily chooses to believe in god or not to. You don't believe in the biblical version of god choosing those who will believe. If you knew how salvation worked you would understand that when a person has been predestined for salvation by god according to the purpose of his...
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
Comment removed
shteve77 11 months ago
To Tamiroid you are just upset that you have proven yourself to be a liar. Not only that but you are a heretic, false teacher and have attempted to take remove god's sovereignty.
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram Yeah... Yeah... Yeah... Whatever! It's interesting to hear this from a liar himself. Well, I'm sick of this... I'm going out...
TalmidRoi 11 months ago
To shteve Matthew 20:28 “Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.” wonder why he never said all? Many verses like this.
I have showed you wrong. Yea the verses are there , but your interpretation of them are wrong . Same as you have added that god predestined based on foreknowledge of who would believe. Just adding your own commentary again. Stop imposing your arminian ,worldly idea of god into the scriptures
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram You have all ready said that a few days ago and as I said then, many can be used to show a large number, including all as it does in these verses.
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt."Dan12:2
"For if the many died by the trespass of the one man"Rom5:15 (Did only some die because of Adam's sin? No! All did!)
shteve77 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram......Still no answer from those scriptures about Irresistible Grace?.........
shteve77 11 months ago
To shteve
it's pretty simple. There's no mystery. It's because you have twisted the scriptures we have looked at so bad to fit what you want it to say, that there's no need to go any further.
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram What a BIG COWARD you are!
TalmidRoi 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram Right! I am the one twisting scriptures, because I say when God says Christ tasted death for "everyone" He meant "everyone", not some. Or when God says He "wants all men to be saved", He actually meant what He said. All I did with those 4 passages was paste the verses & let them speak for themselves. Those passages are in the Bible, God put them there. They disprove Calvinism and you know it so you won't discuss them. If you thought you could show me wrong you would do it.
shteve77 11 months ago
"FOREKNOW"
It doesn't say foreknow of you believing. Injecting your bad theology into the verses
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TreborJNitram WEll, answer first my question.. If you don't, you are a BIG COWARD.
Why does all things work together for good TO THEM THAT LOVE GOD?
TalmidRoi 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram Still not willing to answer the scriptures I asked you about?........I wonder why........
shteve77 11 months ago
Deut. 7:9? Your joking right? Thats the verse your gonna use to prove that god predestines those to salvation based on his knowing that they will believe in him?
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram I'm saying that Deut. 7:7-10 tell us that there is a reason why God would love a person. There is a reason why God elects a person...
Rom 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good TO THEM THAT LOVE GOD, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did FOREKNOW, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren..."
TalmidRoi 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram
1Pe 1:2 Elect ACCORDING to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
This foreknowledge of those WHO LOVED GOD(Rom. 8:28) is the basis of His election... And that's JUSTICE.
TalmidRoi 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TreborJNitram I have a question for you regarding Rom. 8:28.
Why does all things work together for good TO THEM THAT LOVE GOD?
TalmidRoi 11 months ago
Talmidroid's words
He predestined all those who god elected , those who foreknew who would trust in him and Jesus Christ from the beginning to the end,to be conformed to the image of his son. Show me where this verse is . These are your words that you have injected into the verses and then try to pass them off as scriptures. True liar. Show me the verse that says god elects those he knew would trust in him.
TreborJNitram 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram Do you know why God loved the Israelites? Did God love them with no reason? Did God chose them with no reason?
TalmidRoi 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram Deu 7:7 "The LORD DID NOT set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples.
Deu 7:8 But it was because the LORD loved you and KEPT THE OATH HE SWORE to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
TalmidRoi 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram Deu 7:9 "Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the FAITHFUL God, KEEPING HIS COVENANT OF LOVE to a thousand generations OF THOSE WHO LOVE HIM and KEEP HIS COMMANDS
Deu 7:10 "But those who hate him he will repay to their face by destruction; he will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate him.."
TalmidRoi 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram Notice that in Deut. 7:9, we must LOVE GOD and KEEP HIS COMMANDS. There... God based His foreknowledge also with that concept... He loved the elect because He knew beforehand that these people will love Him and obey His commands.
TalmidRoi 11 months ago
@TreborJNitram God cannot be a just God if he would judge those He programmed to hate him.
TalmidRoi 11 months ago