(The next count of glowing Noble Phantasms reached thirty-two. This time, even Rider kept silent. Berserker had endured a continuous attack of sixteen Noble Phantasms, but there was no way to resist twice that number. That was the same for all the other Servants. Nobody could estimate the limits of the latent power of the golden Archer anymore.)
@GUNDAM00745 Do you understand what savings throws are? A saving throw is the likelihood of resisting/avoiding a threat. Combined with his Protection of the Fairies (which drastically increases luck in a pinch), Arondight allows Lancelot to reduce the damage (if not nullify) of any noble phantasm. Furthermore, Arondight's unbreakable nature allows Lancelot to deflect the remaining damage. You have to understand that servant battles are based on battles btw concepts (not just pure damage output).
@GUNDAM00745 Arondight increases savings throws and is capable of receiving any attack without taking damage. Thanks to the increase in the success rate of savings throws plus his protection of the fairies, Lancelot can survive Enuma Elish and Excalibur due to a higher evasion rate. Furthermore, thanks to its ability to receive any attack without taking damage, Arondight can function as a shield. Against Rider/Caster, Lancelot would lose because he cannot survive a drawn out battle (Kariya sux).
@12992735 Evade Excalibur or Enuma Elish? Is that a joke?
Evade Anti City level attacks? Lancelot cant teleport bro. He'll be fried. Arondight wont protect him from being vaporised by Excaliblast nor protect him from being shredded by Enuma Elish
@GUNDAM00745 plus he isn't the protagonist...besides...explain how Berserker (Fate Stay Night) comepletely pwned Saber AND Archer (UBW) on the first meeting? :)..He also Kills archer (on fate stay night)
@GUNDAM00745 Why listen to a Theme of someone you don't like?....besides try trolling harder xD...And by general statistics, Berserker IS the most powerful servant, what makes him weak?, he lost his SANITY...he lost his mind, do you think someone who lost his sanity can think of a good battle plan?...sheesh, look at yourself, then look at berseker...I would laugh if you think you're more badass or stronger than him.
@DemonicDrone nope. Lancelot is the weakest servant in Fate zero.You applying real life logic into anime is stupid stop there.
What makes him weak? Read the novel yet? He practically has no NPs that can ever beat other servants.Stats means shit in Fate world. Doesn't let you tank anti army NPs or gives you the ability to best 1000 enemies at once. And duh. him losing sanity makes him even weaker as a berserker class. Fanboy and their fail logic..lmfao.
"Defeat Diarmuid's cursed lance?" This is somehow possible if he uses only arondight as not like it would break due to the spell destroying concept of Gae Dearg unlike Knight of Honor and physically Lancelot might be more skilled.
@GUNDAM00745 Knight of Honor means that weapon is now Berserker's, and thus unable to return to the kings vault unless Lancelot lets go of it. :3 and also, if you have read the novel, then you'd know that the other servants regard him more of a wild card than anything else. More importantly even with his sanity stripped, he has Eternal Arms Mastery that grants him a back some of his sanity, at least when it comes to weapons. The only reason he loses is because he has a crappy master
@undefundead Are you an idiot?...Berserker class servants ALL lose their Sanity...and Lancelot can wield almost any weapon =_=...at least he'd be more badass then you :)...anyway, I still have a life, I won't forsake it with conversing with a lifeless troll like you ;)
Prevents degradation of fighting skills when under the effect of mental hindrance. A+: Mastership of combat arts has reached the point of being said to be unrivaled in one's era. By complete merging of mind, body and technique, it is possible to make use of full fighting skills even when under the influence of any sort of mental hindrance.
@GUNDAM00745 Berserker is the Fucking strongest, his noble phantasms : knight of honor, for someone's glory and his true noble phantasm Arondight ( rank A++ )
His epic abilities can own all other servants, they won't stand a chance
@Anizero1000 Generally yes Berserker has the best abilities...however other classes may have better noble phantasms and if Berserker was seperated from it's master, it'd no longer be able to maintain a planned battle strategy and would just smash everything in plain sight. (Do know when you say berserker it means ALL of the Berserker class...not just the Fate/Zero one)
@Anizero1000 yeah his ability can do as much as kill himself in the holy grail war.
I suggest you go look up on what the other servants can do. Basically Lancelot's NPs are shit. Its nothing compared to any of the other servants except assassin.
Arondight A++ rank. Big fuck? All it does is grant amped stats which wont save his ass from a attack by any of the other servant's NP. Lets see him tank Gae bolg,Excalibur,Ionian Heitairoi,UBW,Ea or even Caster's magic bombardment.
@GUNDAM00745 Well...no not really...if you UNDERSTOOD the visual novel then you'd know berserker isn't weak. Berserker lost their sanity, BUT in order to summon berserker the master has to be strong..being strong as a magus means being smart...so what berserker lacks in tactics the master can provide. If it were real...Berserker would probably win almost everytime unless it's ganged up on by multiple servants..or a server with a stronger noble phantasm.
So tell me. Can Lancelot defeat Rider (both) Saber , Archer ( both again) Caster ( BOTH again) Lancer ( Both yet again) or Berserker (Fate Stay) ?
If you say yes you got some problems with logic man. The only Servant Lancelot can beat is Assassins. With or without mad enhancement he is doomed to fail. Basically this guy is fighting a nuclear war. Without any nukes.
@DemonicDrone Lancelot is weak as shit and cant take on any servants other than Assassin. And even Fate Zero Assassin might pawn him hard with numbers alone.
@GUNDAM00745 And how can you say that? You weren't actually IN the war were you?...besides, if you hate Berserker Class so much, why the heck would you listen to it's OCS?..actually nevermind, I won't lower myself to become as lifeless as a loser like you who trolls vids for a living.
I think Zero Berserker gets a bit overrated when it comes to Gil Vs Berserker. True Berserker was able to counteract the sword rain but you must recall that the gate of babylon can shoot far more weapons
From the novel:
"The next count of glowing Noble Phantasms reached thirty-two. This time, even Rider kept silent. Berserker had endured a continuous attack of sixteen Noble Phantasms, but there was no way to resist twice that number."
Gil was actually shoot even more if it wasn't for Tokiomi
@vergilheartnet and what makes him able to do such a thing. True Bersker can wield other noble phantasms but that doesn't make him some god that can deflect all of them non stop. Gilgamesh would just keep on increasing the weapon spam to the point where Berserker would be overwhelmed with the noble phantasms
@DawnBlader aha, indeed he may not deflect all of them non stop, and also , a FACT< gilgamesh cannot KEEP increasing the weapons, cuz it just increases the amount of mana hes using, it also depends on the Master's magic skills, and also, Berserker Wont just stand there and deflect those weapons, he would just charge towards Gilgamesh and Deflect them at the same time
@vergilheartnet I like that you actually replied instead of merely said something short like "lol he can just do it non-stop". Makes it more of a debate
Nonetheless where has it stated that prana is a huge factor for gilgamesh's GOB. Tokiomi is a good master so prana is not much of a problem for him. Bererker's ability is to wield weapons not catch them. Sure he would be able to wield some of the noble phantasms but in the end Berserker would be overwhelmed
@DawnBlader just look at the foght between Berserker can Gilgamesh , he can catch almsot every weapons Gilagemsh throws at him, and destroy some of them by using the weapons from gate of Babylon, Tokiomi is a good master, indeed, BUT IF gilgamesh's master was NOT Tokiomi, he would certainly lose to berserker, in fact, If KAriya was Stronger than he was, he could control berserker more efficiently, and Berserker can counter longer and destroy Gilgamesh soon, the key factor is The master
@vergilheartnet Not really, it's only gilgamesh's lack of being serious that keeps him from utterly dominating Zero Berserker. The most of Gate of Babylon that Berserker can take on is about 16 weapons and it's pretty much indicated that once Gilgamesh started opening up GoB to about 30 weapons Berserker wasn't going to fair as well.
and that's not even half of the full potential that GoB is capable of showing.
@ReroOnyx even though he expands GOB, he cannot keep expanding and fire the blades contiouosly for too long, his mana is limited, his master will need to supply him More mana
Other than Hollow Ataraxia (and I don't have near enough knowledge on that right now) the only other time Gilgamesh becomes truly serious is during his battle with Iskander where he uses the full power of Ea and opens up Gate of Babylon to what we can only assume to be it's full extent (it's the most he's ever opened it up anyways.) And he can casually fire off those weapons with ease. It's what he actually does in his fight with Iskander.
@ReroOnyx i wouldnt really call that FULL power, Ea should be more destructive than that, since it can show the "truth" of the world it once was, and also, i told u, he can fire those weapons with ease, ALL THX to Tohkiomi TOhsaka, for supplying him enough prana, lets just think like this, What happens if Tohkiomi Tohsaka had Iskandar as his servant, I would definitely bet on Iskandar to win, since he has a great master, and also, Ionion hetaroi would probably be used more often
@vergilheartnet Don't forget, by the time Gilgamesh faces Iskander, Tokiomi is no longer his master, it's Kotomine. The latter who doesn't have nearly the same skill as a magus than the former. Gilgamesh used the true power of Ea, opened the Gates Of Babylon to over a hundred weapons and used Enkindu without so much as breaking a sweat, while his master was Kotomine.
@ReroOnyx Woah, dude, kotomine was a great master, he was taught by Tokiomi himself, of course, he has the potential to be nearly as great as tohkiomi tohsaka
@vergilheartnet What can he do? Completely outclass Shirou in terms of sheer speed, power, endurnace, etc? Gilgamesh is still a Servant, and not only is he a servant, he's literally the strongest servant there is. There's only one thing that allowed Shirou to keep up with Gilgamesh, firstly Gli wasnt being serious and secondly Shirou's weapons did not have to be pulled, giving him more ample time to strike than Gil.
@ReroOnyx I believe your contradicting yourself, wouldn't you be saying that Shirou has the advantage in speed with having easier access to his weapons?..in terms of attack speed that is.
In terms of strength Gil may have the advantage,BUT what he doesn't have is proficiency with his weapons,Shirou due to his tracing ability had more experience with his weapons and thus used his weapons more effectively than Gil did.
@ReroOnyx what MrQvmateo said is true, his theory is absolutely correct, in terms of power and strenght, Gilgamesh is the strongest, but Victory is not determined by just sheer strength, but strategy , Shirou using his tracing abilities, can attack faster and kill Gilgamesh before he has the chance to use Ea
@vergilheartnet Also note that unlike Gate of Babylon, Unlimited Blade Works takes any weapon and reduces it it by one rank. GoB however gets stronger the more wealth the user has. Also, Enkindu might not have the necessary effect on Shirou with him being a non-divine being, but its still a chain and Shirou is still a human. If your body is haltered at any time, its going to put Shirou on the losing end.
@ReroOnyx Also Archer can overedge his weapons (i don't think shirou can though) making them a stronger 1 time use np, as well as being able to make multiple copies of the same np, which i think makes up for that 1 rank reduction .
And about Enkidu, would'nt one think that Shirou ,being the one that is on the attack and having the speed advantage would have more time to break the chain (by shooting it with a projected weapon maybe).
@MrQvmateo Actually, Gilgamesh himself had to have been going slightly faster. Both of them were clashing weapons at the same time but because Gil has more a of distance to close, he of course has to attack slightly faster. Shirou on his part basically puts Gilgamesh on the defensive and constantly attacks without waiting.
Also Shirou states that he and Gil are bother users, neither of which are proficient with their weapons. He doesn't have an advantage there.
@ReroOnyx actually i believe Shirou has proficiency of his projected weapons (atleast more than Gilgamesh).because thats what "tracing" does, w/c is having experience in using the weapon by tracing it's history.
Shirou may be just an owner but he does know how to use NP techniques like Nine lives or Crane Wing. So if you really read the novel you would be able to deduce that he does have proficiency.
@MrQvmateo I wouldn't use Wiki as a source if possible but you are right. Shirou is capable of firing off his blades. The use of Nine Lives was done because of the grafting of Archer's arm because of the shared link they have. It's what allows him to use Archer's powers in HF in the first place and utilize those abilities. Likewise in UBW, Shirou is able to gain more experience while fighting Archer.
@MrQvmateo Oh he's capable of tracing weapons, there's no argument on that and now that I've re-taken a look at said stats and realized my mistake on the whole 2/3 magical energy needed, the usage of UBW may not be as bad as I first thought. However it still lacks the overall power of GoB as the dupicated weapons inside of it are still reduced by a rank.
@MrQvmateo Basically meaning that unless Shirou (or Archer) somehow gain an EX-ranked weapon, none of their weapons will reach the Rank of 'A'. UBW as a whole itslef though is an EX-ranked NP.
However, this could mean that only duplicated weapons or weapons directedly duplicated in UBW have this effect. I say this basically because if Archer didn't have any 'A' ranked weapons, he wouldn't be able to get pasted Berserker's God Hand which negates 'B' ranked weapons or lower.
@MrQvmateo It's something that I honestly have to look up just to see exactly how it works. I fully admit that while while I try to use as much research and understanding as I can, I do make mistakes with my reasoning even with regards to the Fate/Stay Night universe.
@MrQvmateo Alright, I did myself a little more resarch, and looked at the VN again. It's stated that attacks of the "highest caliber" are capable of bypassing God Hand. We can assume that this means 'A" ranked weapons because by it's nature, EX weaons while higher are also undefinable.
By that logic alone, Archer (Who killed Berserker six times and without UBW in the VN if IRC) must have an "A" ranked weapon or higher.
@ReroOnyx i also looked at the VN again and saw that NP attacks powers aren't constant for example Lancers Gae Bolg NP ranks B in the abilities page then go to the Noble Phantasms page you'd notice that the attack skill ''Thrusting lance of death flight" it goes up a rank to B+
My understanding is that Archer used attack skills gained by his tracing to kill Berserker 6 times, instead of just normal attacking him with NP or shooting him like Gil did.
@ReroOnyx this also supports the statement in the novel that Archer killed Berserker 6 time and each time in 6 different ways.
So even if Archer or Shirou can only project NP with a rank reduction."tracing" does make up for it and because of this, Shirou is able to match Gilgamesh's superior NP's because even though they are stronger Gilgamesh has basically no experience in using them and cant use techniques or attack skills.
@MrQvmateo The only advantage Shirou has, one has has to take top concern about, is the fact that his swords are already by him for use. Shirou might be able to cut Enkidu (Which wouldn't destroy it completely anyways) but remember he has to also keep up the constant attack on Gilgamesh too. If Gilgamesh gets legimtately serious, Shirou's screwed. It isn't just attack power, but speed, endurance, etc. a human really has no match against a servant.
@ReroOnyx So...Shirou, like i said had the advantage in speed because of the easier accessible weapons (Gilgamesh may move faster but Gate of Babylon makes him draw weapons from behind and is slower right?)
And actually it's stated that Shirou is able to shoot and attack with his weapons at the same time if he's inside UBW (it's in the type moon ubw wiki page), So it is quite possible to shoot that normal chain off and maintain his attack on Gilgamesh
@MrQvmateo Lastly, Unlimited Blade Works requires a lot more prana than Gate of Babylon. Stated to be 2-3 times as much prana needed to use the NP actually. It's shown too after the battle as Shirou basically collapases, exausted and tired.
Back to Fate/Zero Gil uses both the full power of Babylon, the full power of Ea, plus Enkidu and doesn't show any problems or tiredness at all.
@ReroOnyx hmm i don't know where you got the prana cost information from...the novel never said anything about the exact UBW prana cost. I don't know if what you say is true or not. I just believed Shirou just had little prana to begin with thats why he got tired.
But even so UBW once activated is constant, you don't have to keep activating it.
@MrQvmateo Under the F/SN character stats page for Archer it's stated that the use of UBW negates the weapons by one rank and requires 2-3 times the amount of Prana. If you want I could PM you the stats personally just so you know I'm not pulling random crap out.
@MrQvmateo and upon looking at it again, I did make a mistake. It takes 2/3 times as much magical energy to create defensive weapons such as Rho Aius. It was a mistake on my part for not carefully reading it and I admit it.
@ReroOnyx weapons from unlimited Blade works are reduced by one rank, and due to that, Archer and Shirou filled up that gap by using Reinforcement, Enkidu does not have any effect on Shirou, but Shirou does have the ability to cut through Enkidu, and since when does Gilgamesh uses Enkidu on a Non divine being??? well, only once, against Shirou, when he was trapped, only when hes desperate, and Enkidu is not unbreakable, Even The Great Heracles, Berserker can destroy the chains with Sheer power
@vergilheartnet Also, Gilgamesh has never been serious against Saber at anytime. He's never been serious at all except for two times, once in Hollow Ataraxia and once against Fate/Zero Iskander.
@ReroOnyx at the end of Fate stay night, he looks pretty serious, but the power he unleashed from Ea was unknown since it was Countered by Avalon, whether hes serious at that time, im still not so sure
@vergilheartnet Trust me and any person who has read/played the Visual Novels and read Fate/Zero will tell you that Gilgamesh has never been serious in Fate/Stay Night, at all. It's what keeps him from dominating everyone because of his ego.
It's one of the things Shirou had to watch out for when he fought him in UBW because he knew that if Gilgamesh got his act together and took things seriously, there was no way he would ever be able to beat him.
@ReroOnyx first of all, even when Gilgamesh gets serious , what can he do????? he can only unleash the power of Ea to its full potential, which it needs charging, probably around 5 seconds, and that 5 seconds will be enough for Shirou to Kill him, and if he opens the GOB wider, Shirou can counter them inside Unlimited Blade works, and Enkidu???? it doesnt work on Shirou, since hes not a divine being
@vergilheartnet Plus, Gilgamesh's Independent Action (A) basically allows hims to do whatever he pleases for a few days without a master. including the supply of Prana given to him. He can basically use his noble phantasms whenever he wants and he does. After defeating Iskander and facing Saber, she notes that not a single thing was wrong Gilgamesh. No wounds or even a sign that he was hurt or tired.
Kotomine never showed even an ounce of the same magical skill of his mentor.
@ReroOnyx basically, Archer independant action allows Archer class servants to move freely anywhere, but Maximum for only 2 Days, his prana is still LIMITED, what do u expect from having a great master such as Tohkiomi ????in fact, Gilgamesh was never injured, hes too lazy, he only uses the GOB to shoot at his oponents, he never take weapons from GOB and engage in close combat, cuz if he did, he will lose for sure, Kotomine doesnt have the magical powers like Tohkiomi, but he does have the skill
@vergilheartnet I'm not really sure what your trying to go on? Kotomime may be physicallly strong but he's magically weak. Even assuming the use of Prana for GoB I've already pointed out that Gilgamesh is barely, if at all effected by its use where Shirou was dead tired after using UBW.
Nasu states that Gilgamesh is the strongest servant in terms of sheer firepower and can easily win the war in a day if he got serious.
@ReroOnyx Umm, first of al, Shoru Emiya was like an amateur in magic, OF COURSE he will be weak after using UBW, whatddya expect??it was his first time using such powerful magic, Nasu said this, Nasu said that, and if Nasu said Gilgamesh can kiss his Butt, u believe him?? How many times do i have to say this??? i said Kotomine is not as strong as Tohkiomi in magic POWER, but he has the SKILLS as Tohkiomi has, SKills and power are different, And thats what Gilgamesh is, he has power, but no skill
@vergilheartnet Yes, if the creator itslef states something, unless it's contradicted or reinstated somehow, you have to take it by word. Having skill and magic are two totally different things. A persons skill means jack to the amount of prana needed for a servant. Kotomine's apparent skill provided nothing for Gilgamesh, at all. The only thing Kotominhe provides Gilgamesh is prana to stay in the world.
@ReroOnyx Wrong, Skill is in terms of How a person knows to Utilize their weapons to its maximum potential, Such as Kotomine is quite skilled in magic, but not powerful enough , he Knows how to use magic wisely, he may not have lots of prana like Tohkiomi, but he uses them wisely, and Efficiently , thats Called a SKILL, Gilgamesh is the same, he has the POWER, which Includes Powerful noble phantasms, Such as Ea, and GOB, but he does not know how to use them wisely
@vergilheartnet Did you seriously not read? It was directly stated, in the Novel (Which I posted the quote) Kotomine's magical skill never went past that of a beginner. It's stated, directly in the novel, that most Kotomine can do as far as magic is healing, that's literally his best.
We can take the idea that GoB, Ea, all of it uses prana, it should. Yet it's shown that the effect it has on Gilgamesh or his master is not even noticable.
@vergilheartnet You clearly don't get it at all. You clearly aren't even reading (or even providing any evidence from the VN or Zero Novel to back up any claims. Archer/Shirou and Gil provide the same concept as users. Directly stated by Shirou. However, Gil always has the power advantage (which is already so high that an opponents skill means jack to him.)
@ReroOnyx Power is not the key to win everything, Skill is necessary as well, as u can see, Gilgamesh has power, but in the end, he was surprised and defeated by Saber, who rushed towards him and used Excalibur, so look at it this way, if he had master the weapons from GOB, would he be in trouble if he was just 10 inches away from Saber???? no, he will not
@vergilheartnet You really don't get it at all do you? If Gilgamesh is serious, Saber doesn't have a chance. She has absolutely no way, whatsoever, to counter against Gate of Babylon if Gil opens it enough. He was effectively screwing with her the entire time like he does with basically eveyrone else.
Heracles can't beat Gil because of Gil's EX NPs. He doesn't have any defensive capabilites against Gate of Babylon.
@ReroOnyx OOH , so right now, Blame it ALL ON THE stats, Berserker has the BEST stats of all servants, and now U just Blade it ALL ON the noble phantasm Stats, Dude, its easy to counter Gates of Babylon, unless u have Unlimited Blade works with ya, OR, u can just simply deflect some of them and run towards Gilgamesh, and Saber defeated Gilgamesh, thats a fact, and if other servants did what Saber did, Gilgamesh would end up in the same fate
@vergilheartnet Yet it's state in the VN that if Berserker was able to close the distance, he would kill gilgamesh. Gilgamesh is stated to have the firepower of 5 servants. His stats (and yes I'll be using that because it helps to clarify the servants abilities, strengths and weakness) are already naturally high. Gate of Babylon, a NP already stated to be at an EX rank level is increased in power thanks to the wealth of the owner.
@vergilheartnet Ea without going at its full power is already at an output equal or even greater than Exacliur and of course it's full power is perfectly capable of rendering the world apart. Between equal opponents, skill might matter, but Gilgamesh is vastly overpowered that said skills mean jack in a fight against him unless your bringing out a similiar level of power.
@ReroOnyx OOH REALLY????? skill means Jack???only an ignorant fool will ignore having skills, Such as Saber is skilled in Melee combat, and with that skill, she defeated Gilgamesh, and tell me, if Gilgamesh has that Skill< will he be defeated At the end of Fate Route, dont give me other facts, just answer, yes or No????
@vergilheartnet We can get rid of stats if you want, it won't change anything. Saber can barely handle a non-serious Gilgamesh at all. When he uses 47 NPs, she's struck continuously. that's about half of Gilgamesh's full power.
I already posted the quote about Zero Bersker and Gate of Babylon on here so you can look it up or better yet read the novel. And yes, Gilgamesh has used Ea against Shirou during the UBW route in the visual novel.
@ReroOnyx Gilgamesh Sledomly used GOB against Saber, he uses Ea mostly against Saber, and u said 47 weapons is HALF of his full power, which meanshis full power is not even 100 weapons,Archer can use over hundreds , maybe thousands of Weapons within UBW, and Gilgamesh shot 16 weapons at berserker, and later he doubled it, but He didnt use them on berserker, so HOW sure can u be that berserker cannot take them all?????was Berserker tired after taking all those 16 swords???? he didnt break a sweat
@vergilheartnet She didn't beat gilgamesh because of skill, she beat him because of gilgamesh's pride and arrogance. Her so called skill wasn't helping her when she was literally getting thrashed around by Gilgamesh who wasn't breaking a sweat or concerned in the slightest.
@ReroOnyx u just ignored my question, i asked u, if Gilgamesh mastered all weapons from GOB, and he can fight melee combat as perfect as Saber does, SO even though hes arrogant , he can block Saber's Sword attacks, so ANSWER the Question, Will he still lose to Saber, if hes skillfull ????? Well, YES OR NO????? just answer
@vergilheartnet You want the answer, it's like this. If gilgamesh was skillful with his weapons, then he'd beat Saber even more easily than he did when he wasn't skilled with them. Gilgamesh more than once was using GoB against Saber and every time he did, he easily battered her around. Her so called close ranged skill in swordsmanship didn't mean jack to Gilgamesh, at all.
Stats help to clarify a servants strengths and weaknesses, of course I'm going to use them.
@ReroOnyx STATS doesnt help to clarify, cuz if it does Heracles and Saber Alter would be the strongest, but he isnt, and That is correct, He would beat Saber easily, So there u go, Thats just one of his weaknesses, Her so called Close range DOES MEAN JACK to Gilgamesh, cuz if he was Skilled in close Range attacks as well, he would not be Defeated by Saber
@vergilheartnet And lastly. It was mentioned not by a character, but in the narration of the story itself that there was no way that Zero Berserker could handle 32 weapons. Even if it is an assumption, it's also the only line indicating any sort of cap to Knight of Honor.
Berseker never went past 16 weapons and if anything it's indicated that he won't get past 32. In short, there's more evidence to say he won't get past 32 weapons then he will.
@ReroOnyx yep your right it may be narration. but i'm still not entirely convinced if that the narration you'd be taken as fact because it may also be an assumption (not just rider but everyone who saw the fight)
And also that the statement was made before anyone had any idea of Berserker's abilities and overall strength so there's was just no way for anyone predict if Berserker could go past 32 NP.
@ReroOnyx yep your right it may be narration. but i'm still not entirely convinced if that the narration you'd be taken as fact because it may also be an assumption (not just rider but everyone who saw the fight)
And also that the statement was made before anyone had any idea of Berserker's abilities and overall strength so there's was just no way for anyone predict if Berserker could go past 32 NP.
@vergilheartnet Gilgamesh doesn't need Ea to kill people, GOB is already more than powerful enough as I've said more than once. Saber can't beat a serious Gilgamesh, Zero Berseker can't beat a serious Gilgamesh. I have provided more than enough information so as of this moment.is Not to mention GOB can be activated much faster than UBW anyways.
You don't get it, you're ignoring direct facts and statements and you know what. I'm done with you. Argue with someone else.
@ReroOnyx GOB can be activated faster than UBW, but once UBW is activated, weapons can be equiped much faster inside UBW than GOB, the point is, U keep saying the good points of Gilgamesh, but u never listed his weakneses, Except u said hes an arrogant fool, but there were plenty more weaknesses and u never list them out, i admit gilgamesh is powerful, but hes NOT unbeatable, im a fair man, i not only list the good parts but also the bad parts
@vergilheartnet The only thing that stopped Gilgamesh from literally thashing Saber was because of Avalon and it's directly stated that she has to has to be connected to it and near Shirou for it to work. Besides that, she has no way to actually deal Gate of Babylon what so ever. Gilgamesh was from start to finish, screwing with her.
@ReroOnyx Umm, at the end of fate, he never had the chance to use Enuma Elish, She killed him right before he was gona unleash its power, There are a few ways to counter, such as Knight of honour and UBW are counter for GOB, most of the times Gilgamesh only uses Ea against Saber though
@vergilheartnet Do I have to again explain that Nasu, the creator,, directly states that Gil is as strong as 5 servants in terms of sheer firepower. No matter how you look at it, Gilgamesh will always retain an advantage over Archer be it in power or stats.
And yes, in a debate you look at all the evidence you can to provide your point. Which you have yet to do. You haven't done anything to prove your point. Obviously better stats means better possibility of winning. *cont*
@ReroOnyx since u want to compare Stats, Heracles, berserker has the BEst stats,he has all stats A except his luck is B, and Why cant be beat Gilgamesh????? So, guess what, STATS ARE BS!!!!!
@vergilheartnet Yes, his stats are already high as it is, but then you add is absoltely broken NP even for EX ranks and he easily destroys nearly any opponent that goes against him. Knight of Honor can only last against 16+ swords, it's directly stated in the Zero novel that when Gilgamesh opened up GoB to 32 weapons, there was no way Berserker was going to win. this is literally less than half of the full power GoB is capable of producing.
@ReroOnyx Did Nasu himself say Zero berserker can no longer Defend against more than 16 weapons????? and LEMME GUESS U assumed he can only defend against 16 swords, But when The GOB opened up to 32, did u even See Berserker defend it???? NO, U never know How much is the true power of Knight of honour, and plz dont gimme Stats BS anymore, Stats have nothing to decide whos better
@vergilheartnet UBW provides a better offensive ability against GoB, but it sitll suffers under under the line of it's degraded Rank. While a better NP to GoB than Knight of Honor, it still falls slightlys hort of GoB int he end.
Gilgamesh has used Ea against Saber, Iskander, he's even used it against Shirou just to show off his power.
@ReroOnyx UBW is still a counter to GOB, and it has the same rank as GOB does, and when did Gilgamesh used it against Shirou????? he never used it in Fate route or UBW, even though he does, hes just showing off and playing with them, and like i always said , the key to defeat Gilgamesh is to kill him before he has a chance to use Ea
@vergilheartnet GoB and UBW have the rank of EX, it merely means that they can be given a direct rank itself. However obviously there are EX ranks higher than other EX ranks such as how Ea an EX ranked NP is stronger than Arturia's EX ranked Excalibur.
@vergilheartnet You know, you are right, Excalibur is A++, I might have been looking at Avalon or something. I perfectly admit my mistake on that part.
Of course Gilgamesh can lose and of course he has other weaknesses such as limited close fighting abilities but his main weakness stems from his overwhelming pride and arrogance. He let Saber get to him because firstly of Avalon (Which she needs Shirou for) and because he was going easy on her.
@vergilheartnet You can see it their fight in the Fate route. He's already beating her easily around well before he starts using those said 47 weapons I mentioned before. She's tired, weak, barely able to defend herself, etc. Blasts from Excalibur are being defeated easily by bursts from Ea. She actually get near him in fate for close range fighting and in that moment she actually does have a bit of advantage, attempting to overwhelm Gilgamesh.
@vergilheartnet But because she lacks knowledge on his swords and their abilities she has watch out and as the novel said, she's done it more than once but everytime she did, she couldn't get past GOB. After their scuffle when she's tried, breathing heavily, etc. Gilgamesh is described as calmly getting up, no fatigue, strain and the entire fight an entertainment.
@vergilheartnet That's the issue between a serious and non serious Gilgamesh. Non-Serious gilgamesh is already powerful enough as it is and you'll notice that in all the routes, the only reason anyone beats him, Saber, Shirou, Dark Sakura is becfause of his pride and underestimating their abilities.
When you take the characters, take CIS and PIS off as you would assumuably do in a character debate and put both characters and their maximum potentional, Gilgamesh will win.
@vergilheartnet I have provided more than enough information and material from creditable sources indicating Gilgamesh's power. They reign from direct lines from the Visual Novel and Zero Novel, F/SN side material as well as direct lines Nasu has stated himself.
Take it or leave it. I'm done with you. You clearly aren't gettting the issues that Saber, Berseker, etc are unable to beat a Serious Gilgamesh. I've already proven the advance GOB has over UBW.
@ReroOnyx And u have always been ignoring the weaknesses i state about Gilgames, cuz u know that im right about them, and u just dont wana admit it, once i told u about one weakness, u skipped it and came up with other facts
@vergilheartnet and as far as MrQvmateo is concerned if you haven't noticed not only as he been trying to provide legitimate facts on his arguments not only here but also in PMs but he's so debated with me on a fair and just manner. He hasn't insulted me, got angry with me, etc. While I've tried to disprove his arguments, I've done so in a respectable manner because he himself has respected me. I even admited when I was wrong on something.
@vergilheartnet You know if at some point I came off as an asshole or something I'm sorry. I'm very assertive in my arguments but I at no point intended to insult you but merely to clarify, correct and ultimately argue against your reasoning. I always try to use direct facts from the material in my arguments.
@ReroOnyx dude, Materials, Stats, Weapons, I know them all, but the problem is I dont trust those Stats crap, cuz I KNOW theres always a weakness in everyone, cuz im one myself, im a martial artist, which i dont buy things about anyone being unbeatable , i can find weaknesses in anyone, and i found quite a few in Gilgamesh, which proves that hes not invincible, and other Servants ARE CAPABLE to beat him, May not be in a fair way, but yes they can still beat him
@ReroOnyx Keep saying Stats BS every time, cuz everyone knows the stats are Just plain BS, Stats doesnt determine whos stronger, whos better, Gilgamesh will have better stats and powerful noble phantasms over Archer, and i told u, in terms of POWER, Gilgamesh is better, but in terms of SKILL, Archer is better, and dont forget u always ignore the fact that other servants can defeat Gilgamesh by killing him before let him using Ea
@vergilheartnet What keeps Gil from winning is his pride, it stops him from ever going full out against anyone except within two cases, once against Iskander and once in Fate/Hollow Ataraxia.
Kotomine's connection with Angra Maiyu has NOTHINg to do with skill. AM is providing a back up support for Kotomine's heart which was shot by Kiritsugu. Nor does he provide any skill for the corrupted grail at all.
@ReroOnyx umm, dude, Did u even read what i just said??? his connection with Anra Mainyu allows him to use the "black sticky thing from the grail" , its kinda a powerful dark magic, which traps the enemy inside and torture them, and yes, Kotomine was bathed in the Holy grail and he obtained a new body afterwards at the end of Fate Zero
@vergilheartnet When? Kotomine uses the black mud that comes from the corrupted grail but he isn't directly controling or producing it himself. It's not effecting his magic (Which was stated to suck anyways) as Kotomine strength comes from his own physical prowess, not his ability as a magus.
Kotomine states "This mud is not of my making" he only utilizes it.
@ReroOnyx which i said before, HE SKILLED In UTILIZING magic, that black mud must be some sorta dark magic from the Corrupted grail, in fact, a p[owerful mage like Rin cant even use that
@vergilheartnet Give me some facts. Tell me where Archer has the ability to match a serious Gilgamesh. Give me evidence either from the VN, Zero Novel or even nasu himself that puts Archer in the same vicinity as Gil. Give me some evidence that the prana cost for Gob is very great that gil has to be careful in its use (Cause he was abusing the hell out of it against Iskander)
In short, provide actual facts. You're doing nothing but basing your arguing on opinon.
@ReroOnyx i remember in the the UBW route before Archer and Shirou fought, when Shinji and Gilgamesh came and Archer and Gilgamesh where actually in the same room.
I remember Archer even saying to Shinji something like "If you insist on taking RIn then i suppose i should defeat you here",This suggests to me that Archer seems very confident that he can win against Gilgamesh.
But then again Gilgamesh just calls Archer a "clown" w/c suggests to me that he is underestimating Archer.
@MrQvmateo Gilgamesh underestimates people because of his intense pride and needless to say despite that he is still an extremely strong servant. Both Archer and Gil share a very similar ability and both of their abilities stems from the fact that they are just owners.
Archer may have a slight advantage over the usage of his own weapons but it's offset by Gilgamesh's more powerful weapons...*cont*
@ReroOnyx I agree that Gilgamesh is extremely strong, but is he just that stupid that he can't figure out that an opponent is a bad matchup for him and that he should'nt underestimate them. i mean he kept on fighting melee with Shirou where he had an attack speed disadvantage, instead of maybe running away a bit and attacking from range where he may have had a better chance, But obviously that pride won't allow him to back away from Shirou.
@MrQvmateo Except in rare caes (Such as Zero Berserker here) a master is able to read the stats of a servant and thus use that in helping themselves within the war and setting their plans in the best way possible.
Gilgamesh himself doesn't know the stats of his oponents but somelike Kotomine, his master, would be able to read them. Besides Saber, who he fought in Zero and thus has knowledge on her abilties, Gil has no way to determine on his own just how strong or weak someone is.
@ReroOnyx I believe Gilgamesh knows a bit about Archers stats and abilities (because of Lancer)
And against Shirou he had ample time to figure that out over the duration of the battle cuz as i remember the battle was pretty long, (it started at night and i think ended in dawn).
@MrQvmateo and again, that's why Shirou kept up the constant offensive against gilgamesh. He had to keep up that pressure and not let Gilgamesh actually collect himself or get his act back together. He fully admits that if Gil gets his composure, he'll lose.
@ReroOnyx and that's my point aswell his over the top arrogance is what i think he has a huge flaw. He just puts himself at the losing side, and in wars you don't get second chances.(why would shirou give him the chance to regain his composure anyway?).
Gilgamesh just has a huge weakness cuz of his arrogance.
@MrQvmateo That is in fact his one major weakness, his pride and arrogance. It's that arrogance which keeps him from going all out against opponents and thus leads to his defeats.
Assuming Gilgamesh was watching the fight between Lancer and Archer (can't recall) while he'll be able to know their moves and sets, he still wouldn't know their stats unless his master told him.
@ReroOnyx i would assume Kotomine told Gilgamesh what Archers stats were since Kotomine can use magic that allows him to see through his servants eyes like in fate zero he used this magic with his assassins.
Its like Tokiomi's strategy in using Assassins to gather intel on other servants. the same thing is done with lancer. except lancer fights the other servants, assassins only watch.
@MrQvmateo In the entirey of F/SN universe, there is only one servant who has ever fought a serious Gilgamesh and that's Fate Zero Iskander. This is the only battle in which Gil really has to use Ea to its full potential because otherwise, even with Gate of Babylon, he has no chance against Ionian Hetioari.
Heck, Iskander and his horse alone were taking the full force of GoB to the face and for iskander he didn't stop until Gil used Ekidnu. And that was without Gordius Wheel.
@MrQvmateo In the entirey of F/SN universe, there is only one servant who has ever fought a serious Gilgamesh and that's Fate Zero Iskander. This is the only battle in which Gil really has to use Ea to its full potential because otherwise, even with Gate of Babylon, he has no chance against Ionian Hetioari.
Heck, Iskander and his horse alone were taking the full force of GoB to the face and for iskander he didn't stop until Gil used Ekidnu. And that was without Gordius Wheel.
@MrQvmateo F/SN & Zero Berserker, F/SN & Zero Caster, F/SN, True and Zero Assassin, F/SN & Zero Lancer, Saber (assuming she doesn't have Avalon) F/SN Rider none of these servants are even capable of handling Gate of Babylon even less if Gil is actually serious. He's just that overpowered.
@ReroOnyx i actually think Zero Berserker has a decent chance of beating Gilgamesh.
because like with Shirou, Gilgamesh underestimates him so he won't use Ea, He probably can keep up with Gate of Babylon and he has no divinity Enkidu wont affect him.
As long as Saber isn't around there fight or his master doesn't go empty on prana he'd have a decent chance in my opinion.
@MrQvmateo Unfortunately Zero Berserker actually can't, regardless if Gil uses Ea or not. Zero Berserker can handle about 16+ weapons from Gate of Babylon but it's stated that as Gil started opening up GoB to 30+ weapons, Zero Berserker wasn't going to fair nearly as well.
@ReroOnyx hmm i believe that statement was one of Riders internal monologues?
i think Rider was just jumping to a conclusion there cuz he thought that not knowing that Berserker actually used his noble phantasm "A Knight Does Not Die with Empty Hands" in defending against GoB.
My understanding of that statement is that Rider mistakenly deduced that Berserker was defending without using any NP and was just defending because of high agility and endurance.
@ReroOnyx and that any servant no matter how high their stats where cannot possibly defend against 30 noble phantasms.
that statement is more likely a wrong deduction by Rider because of Berserkers stats being unreadable and Berserkers NP being a very unconventional one. LOL did that make sense? sorry for my english btw.
@MrQvmateo When back and personally re-read the fight just to make sure. Rider doesn't make the assumption himself but is overall idea basically shared by everyone or a narratoin itself of the story itself.
@MrQvmateo Even Ea, without being use to its full potential, is still vastly stonger than Rho Aius (Archer's greatest defense) and its output is already on par if not higher than Excalibur itself. Then you see the stats differences themselves where Archer pretty much irc, has the lowest stats and each of his stats is one or two ranks lower than Gil's.
@ReroOnyx Gilgamesh truly outclasses Archer in raw stats, but Archer is probably the most resourceful servant and the one that has the most experience in battle. (due to him becoming a counter guardian), with his Mind's Eye he may be able to predict Gilgamesh's attacks so he can evade or maybe counter them.He pressure Gil better than Shirou.
I think if he uses Ea in the Beginning of the match Gilgamesh wins, but he probably won't do that cuz as i said, he underestimates Archer.
@ReroOnyx Gilgamesh truly outclasses Archer in raw stats, but Archer is probably the most resourceful servant and the one that has the most experience in battle. (due to him becoming a counter guardian), with his Mind's Eye he may be able to predict Gilgamesh's attacks so he can evade or maybe counter them.He pressure Gil better than Shirou.
I think if he uses Ea in the Beginning of the match Gilgamesh wins, but he probably won't do that cuz as i said, he underestimates Archer.
@ReroOnyx Gilgamesh truly outclasses Archer in raw stats, but Archer is probably the most resourceful servant and the one that has the most experience in battle. (due to him becoming a counter guardian), with his Mind's Eye he may be able to predict Gilgamesh's attacks so he can evade or maybe counter them.He pressure Gil better than Shirou.
I think if he uses Ea in the Beginning of the match Gilgamesh wins, but he probably won't do that cuz as i said, he underestimates Archer.
@ReroOnyx Gilgamesh truly outclasses Archer in raw stats, but Archer is probably the most resourceful servant and the one that has the most experience in battle. (due to him becoming a counter guardian), with his Mind's Eye he may be able to predict Gilgamesh's attacks so he can evade or maybe counter them.He pressure Gil better than Shirou.
I think if he uses Ea in the Beginning of the match Gilgamesh wins, but he probably won't do that cuz as i said, he underestimates Archer.
@ReroOnyx Gilgamesh truly outclasses Archer in raw stats, but Archer is probably the most resourceful servant and the one that has the most experience in battle. (due to him becoming a counter guardian), with his Mind's Eye he may be able to predict Gilgamesh's attacks so he can evade or maybe counter them.He pressure Gil better than Shirou.
I think if he uses Ea in the Beginning of the match Gilgamesh wins, but he probably won't do that cuz as i said, he underestimates Archer.
@ReroOnyx You are disregarding Archer's Eye of the Mind (True) which allows him to see a path to victory even if there is a 1% chance of him winning.
TruAlvel 2 weeks ago
Gilgamesh dislikes this video."Mongrel! Keep your filthy hands away from my swords!"
legendarylaze 2 weeks ago 12
My GuD this is Beautiful in every sense *sniff*
neokid09 3 weeks ago
(The next count of glowing Noble Phantasms reached thirty-two. This time, even Rider kept silent. Berserker had endured a continuous attack of sixteen Noble Phantasms, but there was no way to resist twice that number. That was the same for all the other Servants. Nobody could estimate the limits of the latent power of the golden Archer anymore.)
*cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
spoilers ;_;
Chanosuk3 1 month ago
lol Arondight.
Nothing compared to the Sword That Cut The World Apart.
darkwind212 1 month ago
@GUNDAM00745 Do you understand what savings throws are? A saving throw is the likelihood of resisting/avoiding a threat. Combined with his Protection of the Fairies (which drastically increases luck in a pinch), Arondight allows Lancelot to reduce the damage (if not nullify) of any noble phantasm. Furthermore, Arondight's unbreakable nature allows Lancelot to deflect the remaining damage. You have to understand that servant battles are based on battles btw concepts (not just pure damage output).
12992735 1 month ago
@GUNDAM00745 Arondight increases savings throws and is capable of receiving any attack without taking damage. Thanks to the increase in the success rate of savings throws plus his protection of the fairies, Lancelot can survive Enuma Elish and Excalibur due to a higher evasion rate. Furthermore, thanks to its ability to receive any attack without taking damage, Arondight can function as a shield. Against Rider/Caster, Lancelot would lose because he cannot survive a drawn out battle (Kariya sux).
12992735 1 month ago
@12992735 Evade Excalibur or Enuma Elish? Is that a joke?
Evade Anti City level attacks? Lancelot cant teleport bro. He'll be fried. Arondight wont protect him from being vaporised by Excaliblast nor protect him from being shredded by Enuma Elish
GUNDAM00745 1 month ago
BTW top comment on how Bersker can beat Gilgamesh is retarded.
Everybody knows fking well that Gilgamesh can claim back his weapons just by making them return to the Vault. Enkidu Gilgamesh my ass.
Idgets.
GUNDAM00745 1 month ago
@GUNDAM00745 plus he isn't the protagonist...besides...explain how Berserker (Fate Stay Night) comepletely pwned Saber AND Archer (UBW) on the first meeting? :)..He also Kills archer (on fate stay night)
DemonicDrone 1 month ago
@DemonicDrone wtf man. Im talking about Fate Zero's Berserker. Lancelot.
-.-"
GUNDAM00745 1 month ago
@GUNDAM00745 Why listen to a Theme of someone you don't like?....besides try trolling harder xD...And by general statistics, Berserker IS the most powerful servant, what makes him weak?, he lost his SANITY...he lost his mind, do you think someone who lost his sanity can think of a good battle plan?...sheesh, look at yourself, then look at berseker...I would laugh if you think you're more badass or stronger than him.
DemonicDrone 1 month ago
@DemonicDrone nope. Lancelot is the weakest servant in Fate zero.You applying real life logic into anime is stupid stop there.
What makes him weak? Read the novel yet? He practically has no NPs that can ever beat other servants.Stats means shit in Fate world. Doesn't let you tank anti army NPs or gives you the ability to best 1000 enemies at once. And duh. him losing sanity makes him even weaker as a berserker class. Fanboy and their fail logic..lmfao.
I got no prob with the music.
GUNDAM00745 1 month ago
@GUNDAM00745 well you fail at trolling since noone ever actually believed you...
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
and i'm pretty damn sure, you didn't come to this vid for the music.
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
@GUNDAM00745 Arondight, STRONG AS FUCKING EXCALIBUR.
Who the fuck can't stand a chance against the indestructible light of the lake?
Even Saber herself say how Lancelot is the strongest sword-wielder heroic spirit.
Only Fake Assassin is maybe better, and he is a fake and fictional heroic spirit.
LironScatterGun 1 month ago
@LironScatterGun
I thought for moment before I decided oh well I'll reply you.
DO YOU KNOW WTF DOES ARONDIGHT DO?!
It is NOT A FKING NUKE WEAPON. Its maximum target is ONE. All it does is grant amped stats and then its a FKING NORMAL SWORD.
WTF can Lancelot actually do against any other servant with a fking SWORD!?
Beat Enuma Elish with it? Beat Excaliblast with it? Fight Ionian Heitairoi? Defeat Diarmuid's cursed lance? Kill Caster's tentacle army?!
NONE OF THE ABV.
GUNDAM00745 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@GUNDAM00745 Beat Enuma Elish with it? Beat Excaliblast with it? Fight Ionian Heitairoi? Defeat Diarmuid's cursed lance? Kill Caster's tentacle army?!
"Defeat Diarmuid's cursed lance?" This is somehow possible if he uses only arondight as not like it would break due to the spell destroying concept of Gae Dearg unlike Knight of Honor and physically Lancelot might be more skilled.
LieselotteHeart 1 month ago
@GUNDAM00745 Btw...why are you here?...if you don't like berserker? :)
DemonicDrone 1 month ago
@DemonicDrone the music duh?
GUNDAM00745 1 month ago
@GUNDAM00745 Knight of Honor means that weapon is now Berserker's, and thus unable to return to the kings vault unless Lancelot lets go of it. :3 and also, if you have read the novel, then you'd know that the other servants regard him more of a wild card than anything else. More importantly even with his sanity stripped, he has Eternal Arms Mastery that grants him a back some of his sanity, at least when it comes to weapons. The only reason he loses is because he has a crappy master
undefundead 1 month ago
@undefundead Are you an idiot?...Berserker class servants ALL lose their Sanity...and Lancelot can wield almost any weapon =_=...at least he'd be more badass then you :)...anyway, I still have a life, I won't forsake it with conversing with a lifeless troll like you ;)
DemonicDrone 1 month ago
@DemonicDrone Eternal Arms Mastership
Prevents degradation of fighting skills when under the effect of mental hindrance. A+: Mastership of combat arts has reached the point of being said to be unrivaled in one's era. By complete merging of mind, body and technique, it is possible to make use of full fighting skills even when under the influence of any sort of mental hindrance.
this is why he is OP :3
undefundead 1 month ago
Most hilarious bad-end of fate/stay night would be Shirou somehow summoning berserker >_>
JD867 1 month ago in playlist Favorite Music
lol people need to realize that this Servant IS WEAK. ABSOLUTELY WEAK.
For those who read the novel will fully understand that Berserker has in no way a single dam chance in winning the war. Both Zero and Stay Night.
Props to the badass look though.
GUNDAM00745 1 month ago
@GUNDAM00745 What's this? NOW YOUR GONNA BOTHER BERSEKER FANS? don't you ever get tired of this?
Your comment here just screams for another idiotic argument.
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
@GUNDAM00745 Berserker is the Fucking strongest, his noble phantasms : knight of honor, for someone's glory and his true noble phantasm Arondight ( rank A++ )
His epic abilities can own all other servants, they won't stand a chance
Anizero1000 1 month ago
@Anizero1000 Generally yes Berserker has the best abilities...however other classes may have better noble phantasms and if Berserker was seperated from it's master, it'd no longer be able to maintain a planned battle strategy and would just smash everything in plain sight. (Do know when you say berserker it means ALL of the Berserker class...not just the Fate/Zero one)
DemonicDrone 1 month ago
@Anizero1000 yeah his ability can do as much as kill himself in the holy grail war.
I suggest you go look up on what the other servants can do. Basically Lancelot's NPs are shit. Its nothing compared to any of the other servants except assassin.
Arondight A++ rank. Big fuck? All it does is grant amped stats which wont save his ass from a attack by any of the other servant's NP. Lets see him tank Gae bolg,Excalibur,Ionian Heitairoi,UBW,Ea or even Caster's magic bombardment.
GUNDAM00745 1 month ago
Comment removed
Anizero1000 1 month ago
@GUNDAM00745 Well...no not really...if you UNDERSTOOD the visual novel then you'd know berserker isn't weak. Berserker lost their sanity, BUT in order to summon berserker the master has to be strong..being strong as a magus means being smart...so what berserker lacks in tactics the master can provide. If it were real...Berserker would probably win almost everytime unless it's ganged up on by multiple servants..or a server with a stronger noble phantasm.
DemonicDrone 1 month ago
@DemonicDrone *facepalm*
So tell me. Can Lancelot defeat Rider (both) Saber , Archer ( both again) Caster ( BOTH again) Lancer ( Both yet again) or Berserker (Fate Stay) ?
If you say yes you got some problems with logic man. The only Servant Lancelot can beat is Assassins. With or without mad enhancement he is doomed to fail. Basically this guy is fighting a nuclear war. Without any nukes.
GUNDAM00745 1 month ago
@DemonicDrone Lancelot is weak as shit and cant take on any servants other than Assassin. And even Fate Zero Assassin might pawn him hard with numbers alone.
Deal with it.
GUNDAM00745 1 month ago
@GUNDAM00745 And how can you say that? You weren't actually IN the war were you?...besides, if you hate Berserker Class so much, why the heck would you listen to it's OCS?..actually nevermind, I won't lower myself to become as lifeless as a loser like you who trolls vids for a living.
DemonicDrone 1 month ago
@DemonicDrone Yah he's a TROLL a really bad one at that.
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
@DemonicDrone lmfao. fine I'll shut up and let the anime do the talking.
Spoilers for you wankboys. Berserk LOSES each and everytime he goes out to fight. 8D
GUNDAM00745 1 month ago
@GUNDAM00745 Berserker isn't the main character ^^
DemonicDrone 1 month ago
I would really love a download link for this o.O
Can't find it anywhere >.<
JD867 1 month ago in playlist Favorite Music
I like how this this berserker sounds I mean.... Hercules sound like:
HRBRBRBRBRBRBRHRBRHBRBRUAAAAAAHHH he sounds so retarded
and Lancelot sounds like: HRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREAEAAAAAAAAAAH which is cool LOL!!!
gawaian 1 month ago
When I heard the first note being prolonged, I automatically thought of the Phantom of the Opera. XD
Phantom has a mask, Lancelot here has a mask. 8D
threetailedfox1 1 month ago
haha. Im gonna laugh once Season 2 animates Lancelot being bitchslapped by Gilgamesh.
Noble Phantasms bitchslap at that.
GUNDAM00745 1 month ago
berserker is Lancelot!!
Raikein445 1 month ago
I think Zero Berserker gets a bit overrated when it comes to Gil Vs Berserker. True Berserker was able to counteract the sword rain but you must recall that the gate of babylon can shoot far more weapons
From the novel:
"The next count of glowing Noble Phantasms reached thirty-two. This time, even Rider kept silent. Berserker had endured a continuous attack of sixteen Noble Phantasms, but there was no way to resist twice that number."
Gil was actually shoot even more if it wasn't for Tokiomi
DawnBlader 2 months ago 8
@DawnBlader and Berserker can just counter those weapons non stop, LOL
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet and what makes him able to do such a thing. True Bersker can wield other noble phantasms but that doesn't make him some god that can deflect all of them non stop. Gilgamesh would just keep on increasing the weapon spam to the point where Berserker would be overwhelmed with the noble phantasms
DawnBlader 1 month ago
@DawnBlader aha, indeed he may not deflect all of them non stop, and also , a FACT< gilgamesh cannot KEEP increasing the weapons, cuz it just increases the amount of mana hes using, it also depends on the Master's magic skills, and also, Berserker Wont just stand there and deflect those weapons, he would just charge towards Gilgamesh and Deflect them at the same time
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet I like that you actually replied instead of merely said something short like "lol he can just do it non-stop". Makes it more of a debate
Nonetheless where has it stated that prana is a huge factor for gilgamesh's GOB. Tokiomi is a good master so prana is not much of a problem for him. Bererker's ability is to wield weapons not catch them. Sure he would be able to wield some of the noble phantasms but in the end Berserker would be overwhelmed
Gilgamesh is hax
DawnBlader 1 month ago
@DawnBlader just look at the foght between Berserker can Gilgamesh , he can catch almsot every weapons Gilagemsh throws at him, and destroy some of them by using the weapons from gate of Babylon, Tokiomi is a good master, indeed, BUT IF gilgamesh's master was NOT Tokiomi, he would certainly lose to berserker, in fact, If KAriya was Stronger than he was, he could control berserker more efficiently, and Berserker can counter longer and destroy Gilgamesh soon, the key factor is The master
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet Not really, it's only gilgamesh's lack of being serious that keeps him from utterly dominating Zero Berserker. The most of Gate of Babylon that Berserker can take on is about 16 weapons and it's pretty much indicated that once Gilgamesh started opening up GoB to about 30 weapons Berserker wasn't going to fair as well.
and that's not even half of the full potential that GoB is capable of showing.
*cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx even though he expands GOB, he cannot keep expanding and fire the blades contiouosly for too long, his mana is limited, his master will need to supply him More mana
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet *MAJOR SPOILERS*
Other than Hollow Ataraxia (and I don't have near enough knowledge on that right now) the only other time Gilgamesh becomes truly serious is during his battle with Iskander where he uses the full power of Ea and opens up Gate of Babylon to what we can only assume to be it's full extent (it's the most he's ever opened it up anyways.) And he can casually fire off those weapons with ease. It's what he actually does in his fight with Iskander.
*Cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx i wouldnt really call that FULL power, Ea should be more destructive than that, since it can show the "truth" of the world it once was, and also, i told u, he can fire those weapons with ease, ALL THX to Tohkiomi TOhsaka, for supplying him enough prana, lets just think like this, What happens if Tohkiomi Tohsaka had Iskandar as his servant, I would definitely bet on Iskandar to win, since he has a great master, and also, Ionion hetaroi would probably be used more often
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet Don't forget, by the time Gilgamesh faces Iskander, Tokiomi is no longer his master, it's Kotomine. The latter who doesn't have nearly the same skill as a magus than the former. Gilgamesh used the true power of Ea, opened the Gates Of Babylon to over a hundred weapons and used Enkindu without so much as breaking a sweat, while his master was Kotomine.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx Woah, dude, kotomine was a great master, he was taught by Tokiomi himself, of course, he has the potential to be nearly as great as tohkiomi tohsaka
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet What can he do? Completely outclass Shirou in terms of sheer speed, power, endurnace, etc? Gilgamesh is still a Servant, and not only is he a servant, he's literally the strongest servant there is. There's only one thing that allowed Shirou to keep up with Gilgamesh, firstly Gli wasnt being serious and secondly Shirou's weapons did not have to be pulled, giving him more ample time to strike than Gil.
*Cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx I believe your contradicting yourself, wouldn't you be saying that Shirou has the advantage in speed with having easier access to his weapons?..in terms of attack speed that is.
In terms of strength Gil may have the advantage,BUT what he doesn't have is proficiency with his weapons,Shirou due to his tracing ability had more experience with his weapons and thus used his weapons more effectively than Gil did.
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx what MrQvmateo said is true, his theory is absolutely correct, in terms of power and strenght, Gilgamesh is the strongest, but Victory is not determined by just sheer strength, but strategy , Shirou using his tracing abilities, can attack faster and kill Gilgamesh before he has the chance to use Ea
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet Also note that unlike Gate of Babylon, Unlimited Blade Works takes any weapon and reduces it it by one rank. GoB however gets stronger the more wealth the user has. Also, Enkindu might not have the necessary effect on Shirou with him being a non-divine being, but its still a chain and Shirou is still a human. If your body is haltered at any time, its going to put Shirou on the losing end.
*cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx Also Archer can overedge his weapons (i don't think shirou can though) making them a stronger 1 time use np, as well as being able to make multiple copies of the same np, which i think makes up for that 1 rank reduction .
And about Enkidu, would'nt one think that Shirou ,being the one that is on the attack and having the speed advantage would have more time to break the chain (by shooting it with a projected weapon maybe).
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
@MrQvmateo Actually, Gilgamesh himself had to have been going slightly faster. Both of them were clashing weapons at the same time but because Gil has more a of distance to close, he of course has to attack slightly faster. Shirou on his part basically puts Gilgamesh on the defensive and constantly attacks without waiting.
Also Shirou states that he and Gil are bother users, neither of which are proficient with their weapons. He doesn't have an advantage there.
*Cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx actually i believe Shirou has proficiency of his projected weapons (atleast more than Gilgamesh).because thats what "tracing" does, w/c is having experience in using the weapon by tracing it's history.
Shirou may be just an owner but he does know how to use NP techniques like Nine lives or Crane Wing. So if you really read the novel you would be able to deduce that he does have proficiency.
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
@MrQvmateo I wouldn't use Wiki as a source if possible but you are right. Shirou is capable of firing off his blades. The use of Nine Lives was done because of the grafting of Archer's arm because of the shared link they have. It's what allows him to use Archer's powers in HF in the first place and utilize those abilities. Likewise in UBW, Shirou is able to gain more experience while fighting Archer.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
Comment removed
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
@MrQvmateo Oh he's capable of tracing weapons, there's no argument on that and now that I've re-taken a look at said stats and realized my mistake on the whole 2/3 magical energy needed, the usage of UBW may not be as bad as I first thought. However it still lacks the overall power of GoB as the dupicated weapons inside of it are still reduced by a rank.
*cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@MrQvmateo Basically meaning that unless Shirou (or Archer) somehow gain an EX-ranked weapon, none of their weapons will reach the Rank of 'A'. UBW as a whole itslef though is an EX-ranked NP.
However, this could mean that only duplicated weapons or weapons directedly duplicated in UBW have this effect. I say this basically because if Archer didn't have any 'A' ranked weapons, he wouldn't be able to get pasted Berserker's God Hand which negates 'B' ranked weapons or lower.
*Cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@MrQvmateo It's something that I honestly have to look up just to see exactly how it works. I fully admit that while while I try to use as much research and understanding as I can, I do make mistakes with my reasoning even with regards to the Fate/Stay Night universe.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@MrQvmateo Alright, I did myself a little more resarch, and looked at the VN again. It's stated that attacks of the "highest caliber" are capable of bypassing God Hand. We can assume that this means 'A" ranked weapons because by it's nature, EX weaons while higher are also undefinable.
By that logic alone, Archer (Who killed Berserker six times and without UBW in the VN if IRC) must have an "A" ranked weapon or higher.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx i also looked at the VN again and saw that NP attacks powers aren't constant for example Lancers Gae Bolg NP ranks B in the abilities page then go to the Noble Phantasms page you'd notice that the attack skill ''Thrusting lance of death flight" it goes up a rank to B+
My understanding is that Archer used attack skills gained by his tracing to kill Berserker 6 times, instead of just normal attacking him with NP or shooting him like Gil did.
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx this also supports the statement in the novel that Archer killed Berserker 6 time and each time in 6 different ways.
So even if Archer or Shirou can only project NP with a rank reduction."tracing" does make up for it and because of this, Shirou is able to match Gilgamesh's superior NP's because even though they are stronger Gilgamesh has basically no experience in using them and cant use techniques or attack skills.
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
@MrQvmateo The only advantage Shirou has, one has has to take top concern about, is the fact that his swords are already by him for use. Shirou might be able to cut Enkidu (Which wouldn't destroy it completely anyways) but remember he has to also keep up the constant attack on Gilgamesh too. If Gilgamesh gets legimtately serious, Shirou's screwed. It isn't just attack power, but speed, endurance, etc. a human really has no match against a servant.
*Cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx So...Shirou, like i said had the advantage in speed because of the easier accessible weapons (Gilgamesh may move faster but Gate of Babylon makes him draw weapons from behind and is slower right?)
And actually it's stated that Shirou is able to shoot and attack with his weapons at the same time if he's inside UBW (it's in the type moon ubw wiki page), So it is quite possible to shoot that normal chain off and maintain his attack on Gilgamesh
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
@MrQvmateo Lastly, Unlimited Blade Works requires a lot more prana than Gate of Babylon. Stated to be 2-3 times as much prana needed to use the NP actually. It's shown too after the battle as Shirou basically collapases, exausted and tired.
Back to Fate/Zero Gil uses both the full power of Babylon, the full power of Ea, plus Enkidu and doesn't show any problems or tiredness at all.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx hmm i don't know where you got the prana cost information from...the novel never said anything about the exact UBW prana cost. I don't know if what you say is true or not. I just believed Shirou just had little prana to begin with thats why he got tired.
But even so UBW once activated is constant, you don't have to keep activating it.
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
@MrQvmateo Under the F/SN character stats page for Archer it's stated that the use of UBW negates the weapons by one rank and requires 2-3 times the amount of Prana. If you want I could PM you the stats personally just so you know I'm not pulling random crap out.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@MrQvmateo and upon looking at it again, I did make a mistake. It takes 2/3 times as much magical energy to create defensive weapons such as Rho Aius. It was a mistake on my part for not carefully reading it and I admit it.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx weapons from unlimited Blade works are reduced by one rank, and due to that, Archer and Shirou filled up that gap by using Reinforcement, Enkidu does not have any effect on Shirou, but Shirou does have the ability to cut through Enkidu, and since when does Gilgamesh uses Enkidu on a Non divine being??? well, only once, against Shirou, when he was trapped, only when hes desperate, and Enkidu is not unbreakable, Even The Great Heracles, Berserker can destroy the chains with Sheer power
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet Also, Gilgamesh has never been serious against Saber at anytime. He's never been serious at all except for two times, once in Hollow Ataraxia and once against Fate/Zero Iskander.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx at the end of Fate stay night, he looks pretty serious, but the power he unleashed from Ea was unknown since it was Countered by Avalon, whether hes serious at that time, im still not so sure
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet Trust me and any person who has read/played the Visual Novels and read Fate/Zero will tell you that Gilgamesh has never been serious in Fate/Stay Night, at all. It's what keeps him from dominating everyone because of his ego.
It's one of the things Shirou had to watch out for when he fought him in UBW because he knew that if Gilgamesh got his act together and took things seriously, there was no way he would ever be able to beat him.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx first of all, even when Gilgamesh gets serious , what can he do????? he can only unleash the power of Ea to its full potential, which it needs charging, probably around 5 seconds, and that 5 seconds will be enough for Shirou to Kill him, and if he opens the GOB wider, Shirou can counter them inside Unlimited Blade works, and Enkidu???? it doesnt work on Shirou, since hes not a divine being
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet Plus, Gilgamesh's Independent Action (A) basically allows hims to do whatever he pleases for a few days without a master. including the supply of Prana given to him. He can basically use his noble phantasms whenever he wants and he does. After defeating Iskander and facing Saber, she notes that not a single thing was wrong Gilgamesh. No wounds or even a sign that he was hurt or tired.
Kotomine never showed even an ounce of the same magical skill of his mentor.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx basically, Archer independant action allows Archer class servants to move freely anywhere, but Maximum for only 2 Days, his prana is still LIMITED, what do u expect from having a great master such as Tohkiomi ????in fact, Gilgamesh was never injured, hes too lazy, he only uses the GOB to shoot at his oponents, he never take weapons from GOB and engage in close combat, cuz if he did, he will lose for sure, Kotomine doesnt have the magical powers like Tohkiomi, but he does have the skill
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet I'm not really sure what your trying to go on? Kotomime may be physicallly strong but he's magically weak. Even assuming the use of Prana for GoB I've already pointed out that Gilgamesh is barely, if at all effected by its use where Shirou was dead tired after using UBW.
Nasu states that Gilgamesh is the strongest servant in terms of sheer firepower and can easily win the war in a day if he got serious.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx Umm, first of al, Shoru Emiya was like an amateur in magic, OF COURSE he will be weak after using UBW, whatddya expect??it was his first time using such powerful magic, Nasu said this, Nasu said that, and if Nasu said Gilgamesh can kiss his Butt, u believe him?? How many times do i have to say this??? i said Kotomine is not as strong as Tohkiomi in magic POWER, but he has the SKILLS as Tohkiomi has, SKills and power are different, And thats what Gilgamesh is, he has power, but no skill
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet Yes, if the creator itslef states something, unless it's contradicted or reinstated somehow, you have to take it by word. Having skill and magic are two totally different things. A persons skill means jack to the amount of prana needed for a servant. Kotomine's apparent skill provided nothing for Gilgamesh, at all. The only thing Kotominhe provides Gilgamesh is prana to stay in the world.
*Cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx Wrong, Skill is in terms of How a person knows to Utilize their weapons to its maximum potential, Such as Kotomine is quite skilled in magic, but not powerful enough , he Knows how to use magic wisely, he may not have lots of prana like Tohkiomi, but he uses them wisely, and Efficiently , thats Called a SKILL, Gilgamesh is the same, he has the POWER, which Includes Powerful noble phantasms, Such as Ea, and GOB, but he does not know how to use them wisely
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet Did you seriously not read? It was directly stated, in the Novel (Which I posted the quote) Kotomine's magical skill never went past that of a beginner. It's stated, directly in the novel, that most Kotomine can do as far as magic is healing, that's literally his best.
We can take the idea that GoB, Ea, all of it uses prana, it should. Yet it's shown that the effect it has on Gilgamesh or his master is not even noticable.
*Cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet You clearly don't get it at all. You clearly aren't even reading (or even providing any evidence from the VN or Zero Novel to back up any claims. Archer/Shirou and Gil provide the same concept as users. Directly stated by Shirou. However, Gil always has the power advantage (which is already so high that an opponents skill means jack to him.)
*Cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx Power is not the key to win everything, Skill is necessary as well, as u can see, Gilgamesh has power, but in the end, he was surprised and defeated by Saber, who rushed towards him and used Excalibur, so look at it this way, if he had master the weapons from GOB, would he be in trouble if he was just 10 inches away from Saber???? no, he will not
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet You really don't get it at all do you? If Gilgamesh is serious, Saber doesn't have a chance. She has absolutely no way, whatsoever, to counter against Gate of Babylon if Gil opens it enough. He was effectively screwing with her the entire time like he does with basically eveyrone else.
Heracles can't beat Gil because of Gil's EX NPs. He doesn't have any defensive capabilites against Gate of Babylon.
*Cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx OOH , so right now, Blame it ALL ON THE stats, Berserker has the BEST stats of all servants, and now U just Blade it ALL ON the noble phantasm Stats, Dude, its easy to counter Gates of Babylon, unless u have Unlimited Blade works with ya, OR, u can just simply deflect some of them and run towards Gilgamesh, and Saber defeated Gilgamesh, thats a fact, and if other servants did what Saber did, Gilgamesh would end up in the same fate
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet Yet it's state in the VN that if Berserker was able to close the distance, he would kill gilgamesh. Gilgamesh is stated to have the firepower of 5 servants. His stats (and yes I'll be using that because it helps to clarify the servants abilities, strengths and weakness) are already naturally high. Gate of Babylon, a NP already stated to be at an EX rank level is increased in power thanks to the wealth of the owner.
*cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet Ea without going at its full power is already at an output equal or even greater than Exacliur and of course it's full power is perfectly capable of rendering the world apart. Between equal opponents, skill might matter, but Gilgamesh is vastly overpowered that said skills mean jack in a fight against him unless your bringing out a similiar level of power.
*Cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx OOH REALLY????? skill means Jack???only an ignorant fool will ignore having skills, Such as Saber is skilled in Melee combat, and with that skill, she defeated Gilgamesh, and tell me, if Gilgamesh has that Skill< will he be defeated At the end of Fate Route, dont give me other facts, just answer, yes or No????
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet We can get rid of stats if you want, it won't change anything. Saber can barely handle a non-serious Gilgamesh at all. When he uses 47 NPs, she's struck continuously. that's about half of Gilgamesh's full power.
I already posted the quote about Zero Bersker and Gate of Babylon on here so you can look it up or better yet read the novel. And yes, Gilgamesh has used Ea against Shirou during the UBW route in the visual novel.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx Gilgamesh Sledomly used GOB against Saber, he uses Ea mostly against Saber, and u said 47 weapons is HALF of his full power, which meanshis full power is not even 100 weapons,Archer can use over hundreds , maybe thousands of Weapons within UBW, and Gilgamesh shot 16 weapons at berserker, and later he doubled it, but He didnt use them on berserker, so HOW sure can u be that berserker cannot take them all?????was Berserker tired after taking all those 16 swords???? he didnt break a sweat
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet She didn't beat gilgamesh because of skill, she beat him because of gilgamesh's pride and arrogance. Her so called skill wasn't helping her when she was literally getting thrashed around by Gilgamesh who wasn't breaking a sweat or concerned in the slightest.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx u just ignored my question, i asked u, if Gilgamesh mastered all weapons from GOB, and he can fight melee combat as perfect as Saber does, SO even though hes arrogant , he can block Saber's Sword attacks, so ANSWER the Question, Will he still lose to Saber, if hes skillfull ????? Well, YES OR NO????? just answer
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet You want the answer, it's like this. If gilgamesh was skillful with his weapons, then he'd beat Saber even more easily than he did when he wasn't skilled with them. Gilgamesh more than once was using GoB against Saber and every time he did, he easily battered her around. Her so called close ranged skill in swordsmanship didn't mean jack to Gilgamesh, at all.
Stats help to clarify a servants strengths and weaknesses, of course I'm going to use them.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx STATS doesnt help to clarify, cuz if it does Heracles and Saber Alter would be the strongest, but he isnt, and That is correct, He would beat Saber easily, So there u go, Thats just one of his weaknesses, Her so called Close range DOES MEAN JACK to Gilgamesh, cuz if he was Skilled in close Range attacks as well, he would not be Defeated by Saber
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet And lastly. It was mentioned not by a character, but in the narration of the story itself that there was no way that Zero Berserker could handle 32 weapons. Even if it is an assumption, it's also the only line indicating any sort of cap to Knight of Honor.
Berseker never went past 16 weapons and if anything it's indicated that he won't get past 32. In short, there's more evidence to say he won't get past 32 weapons then he will.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx yep your right it may be narration. but i'm still not entirely convinced if that the narration you'd be taken as fact because it may also be an assumption (not just rider but everyone who saw the fight)
And also that the statement was made before anyone had any idea of Berserker's abilities and overall strength so there's was just no way for anyone predict if Berserker could go past 32 NP.
MrQvmateo 4 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ReroOnyx yep your right it may be narration. but i'm still not entirely convinced if that the narration you'd be taken as fact because it may also be an assumption (not just rider but everyone who saw the fight)
And also that the statement was made before anyone had any idea of Berserker's abilities and overall strength so there's was just no way for anyone predict if Berserker could go past 32 NP.
MrQvmateo 4 weeks ago
@ReroOnyx but if it was narration that's to be taken as fact then Berserker would really have no chance of beating Gilgamesh.
.......so in the end i don't really have anything conclusive to say LOL.
MrQvmateo 4 weeks ago
@vergilheartnet Gilgamesh doesn't need Ea to kill people, GOB is already more than powerful enough as I've said more than once. Saber can't beat a serious Gilgamesh, Zero Berseker can't beat a serious Gilgamesh. I have provided more than enough information so as of this moment.is Not to mention GOB can be activated much faster than UBW anyways.
You don't get it, you're ignoring direct facts and statements and you know what. I'm done with you. Argue with someone else.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx GOB can be activated faster than UBW, but once UBW is activated, weapons can be equiped much faster inside UBW than GOB, the point is, U keep saying the good points of Gilgamesh, but u never listed his weakneses, Except u said hes an arrogant fool, but there were plenty more weaknesses and u never list them out, i admit gilgamesh is powerful, but hes NOT unbeatable, im a fair man, i not only list the good parts but also the bad parts
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet The only thing that stopped Gilgamesh from literally thashing Saber was because of Avalon and it's directly stated that she has to has to be connected to it and near Shirou for it to work. Besides that, she has no way to actually deal Gate of Babylon what so ever. Gilgamesh was from start to finish, screwing with her.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx Umm, at the end of fate, he never had the chance to use Enuma Elish, She killed him right before he was gona unleash its power, There are a few ways to counter, such as Knight of honour and UBW are counter for GOB, most of the times Gilgamesh only uses Ea against Saber though
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet Do I have to again explain that Nasu, the creator,, directly states that Gil is as strong as 5 servants in terms of sheer firepower. No matter how you look at it, Gilgamesh will always retain an advantage over Archer be it in power or stats.
And yes, in a debate you look at all the evidence you can to provide your point. Which you have yet to do. You haven't done anything to prove your point. Obviously better stats means better possibility of winning. *cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx since u want to compare Stats, Heracles, berserker has the BEst stats,he has all stats A except his luck is B, and Why cant be beat Gilgamesh????? So, guess what, STATS ARE BS!!!!!
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx Pluz, if u wana compare stats, Saber Alter has even better stats than Gilgamesh, so dont gimme This Stats CRAP
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet Yes, his stats are already high as it is, but then you add is absoltely broken NP even for EX ranks and he easily destroys nearly any opponent that goes against him. Knight of Honor can only last against 16+ swords, it's directly stated in the Zero novel that when Gilgamesh opened up GoB to 32 weapons, there was no way Berserker was going to win. this is literally less than half of the full power GoB is capable of producing.
*Cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx Did Nasu himself say Zero berserker can no longer Defend against more than 16 weapons????? and LEMME GUESS U assumed he can only defend against 16 swords, But when The GOB opened up to 32, did u even See Berserker defend it???? NO, U never know How much is the true power of Knight of honour, and plz dont gimme Stats BS anymore, Stats have nothing to decide whos better
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet UBW provides a better offensive ability against GoB, but it sitll suffers under under the line of it's degraded Rank. While a better NP to GoB than Knight of Honor, it still falls slightlys hort of GoB int he end.
Gilgamesh has used Ea against Saber, Iskander, he's even used it against Shirou just to show off his power.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx UBW is still a counter to GOB, and it has the same rank as GOB does, and when did Gilgamesh used it against Shirou????? he never used it in Fate route or UBW, even though he does, hes just showing off and playing with them, and like i always said , the key to defeat Gilgamesh is to kill him before he has a chance to use Ea
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet GoB and UBW have the rank of EX, it merely means that they can be given a direct rank itself. However obviously there are EX ranks higher than other EX ranks such as how Ea an EX ranked NP is stronger than Arturia's EX ranked Excalibur.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx can't be given a direct rank.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx LMAO, dude, Excalibur is not EX, its only A++ class, Where in the hell did ya get this crap about Excalibur being EX??? LOL!!!!
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet You know, you are right, Excalibur is A++, I might have been looking at Avalon or something. I perfectly admit my mistake on that part.
Of course Gilgamesh can lose and of course he has other weaknesses such as limited close fighting abilities but his main weakness stems from his overwhelming pride and arrogance. He let Saber get to him because firstly of Avalon (Which she needs Shirou for) and because he was going easy on her.
*Cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet You can see it their fight in the Fate route. He's already beating her easily around well before he starts using those said 47 weapons I mentioned before. She's tired, weak, barely able to defend herself, etc. Blasts from Excalibur are being defeated easily by bursts from Ea. She actually get near him in fate for close range fighting and in that moment she actually does have a bit of advantage, attempting to overwhelm Gilgamesh.
*Cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet But because she lacks knowledge on his swords and their abilities she has watch out and as the novel said, she's done it more than once but everytime she did, she couldn't get past GOB. After their scuffle when she's tried, breathing heavily, etc. Gilgamesh is described as calmly getting up, no fatigue, strain and the entire fight an entertainment.
*Cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet That's the issue between a serious and non serious Gilgamesh. Non-Serious gilgamesh is already powerful enough as it is and you'll notice that in all the routes, the only reason anyone beats him, Saber, Shirou, Dark Sakura is becfause of his pride and underestimating their abilities.
When you take the characters, take CIS and PIS off as you would assumuably do in a character debate and put both characters and their maximum potentional, Gilgamesh will win.
*Cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet I have provided more than enough information and material from creditable sources indicating Gilgamesh's power. They reign from direct lines from the Visual Novel and Zero Novel, F/SN side material as well as direct lines Nasu has stated himself.
Take it or leave it. I'm done with you. You clearly aren't gettting the issues that Saber, Berseker, etc are unable to beat a Serious Gilgamesh. I've already proven the advance GOB has over UBW.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx And u have always been ignoring the weaknesses i state about Gilgames, cuz u know that im right about them, and u just dont wana admit it, once i told u about one weakness, u skipped it and came up with other facts
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet and as far as MrQvmateo is concerned if you haven't noticed not only as he been trying to provide legitimate facts on his arguments not only here but also in PMs but he's so debated with me on a fair and just manner. He hasn't insulted me, got angry with me, etc. While I've tried to disprove his arguments, I've done so in a respectable manner because he himself has respected me. I even admited when I was wrong on something.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet You know if at some point I came off as an asshole or something I'm sorry. I'm very assertive in my arguments but I at no point intended to insult you but merely to clarify, correct and ultimately argue against your reasoning. I always try to use direct facts from the material in my arguments.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx dude, Materials, Stats, Weapons, I know them all, but the problem is I dont trust those Stats crap, cuz I KNOW theres always a weakness in everyone, cuz im one myself, im a martial artist, which i dont buy things about anyone being unbeatable , i can find weaknesses in anyone, and i found quite a few in Gilgamesh, which proves that hes not invincible, and other Servants ARE CAPABLE to beat him, May not be in a fair way, but yes they can still beat him
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx Keep saying Stats BS every time, cuz everyone knows the stats are Just plain BS, Stats doesnt determine whos stronger, whos better, Gilgamesh will have better stats and powerful noble phantasms over Archer, and i told u, in terms of POWER, Gilgamesh is better, but in terms of SKILL, Archer is better, and dont forget u always ignore the fact that other servants can defeat Gilgamesh by killing him before let him using Ea
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet What keeps Gil from winning is his pride, it stops him from ever going full out against anyone except within two cases, once against Iskander and once in Fate/Hollow Ataraxia.
Kotomine's connection with Angra Maiyu has NOTHINg to do with skill. AM is providing a back up support for Kotomine's heart which was shot by Kiritsugu. Nor does he provide any skill for the corrupted grail at all.
*cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx umm, dude, Did u even read what i just said??? his connection with Anra Mainyu allows him to use the "black sticky thing from the grail" , its kinda a powerful dark magic, which traps the enemy inside and torture them, and yes, Kotomine was bathed in the Holy grail and he obtained a new body afterwards at the end of Fate Zero
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet When? Kotomine uses the black mud that comes from the corrupted grail but he isn't directly controling or producing it himself. It's not effecting his magic (Which was stated to suck anyways) as Kotomine strength comes from his own physical prowess, not his ability as a magus.
Kotomine states "This mud is not of my making" he only utilizes it.
*Cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx which i said before, HE SKILLED In UTILIZING magic, that black mud must be some sorta dark magic from the Corrupted grail, in fact, a p[owerful mage like Rin cant even use that
vergilheartnet 1 month ago
@vergilheartnet Give me some facts. Tell me where Archer has the ability to match a serious Gilgamesh. Give me evidence either from the VN, Zero Novel or even nasu himself that puts Archer in the same vicinity as Gil. Give me some evidence that the prana cost for Gob is very great that gil has to be careful in its use (Cause he was abusing the hell out of it against Iskander)
In short, provide actual facts. You're doing nothing but basing your arguing on opinon.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx i remember in the the UBW route before Archer and Shirou fought, when Shinji and Gilgamesh came and Archer and Gilgamesh where actually in the same room.
I remember Archer even saying to Shinji something like "If you insist on taking RIn then i suppose i should defeat you here",This suggests to me that Archer seems very confident that he can win against Gilgamesh.
But then again Gilgamesh just calls Archer a "clown" w/c suggests to me that he is underestimating Archer.
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
@MrQvmateo lol Gilgamesh is pretty stupid that he keeps underestimating the servants that can actually be a threat to him.
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
@MrQvmateo Gilgamesh underestimates people because of his intense pride and needless to say despite that he is still an extremely strong servant. Both Archer and Gil share a very similar ability and both of their abilities stems from the fact that they are just owners.
Archer may have a slight advantage over the usage of his own weapons but it's offset by Gilgamesh's more powerful weapons...*cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx I agree that Gilgamesh is extremely strong, but is he just that stupid that he can't figure out that an opponent is a bad matchup for him and that he should'nt underestimate them. i mean he kept on fighting melee with Shirou where he had an attack speed disadvantage, instead of maybe running away a bit and attacking from range where he may have had a better chance, But obviously that pride won't allow him to back away from Shirou.
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
@MrQvmateo Except in rare caes (Such as Zero Berserker here) a master is able to read the stats of a servant and thus use that in helping themselves within the war and setting their plans in the best way possible.
Gilgamesh himself doesn't know the stats of his oponents but somelike Kotomine, his master, would be able to read them. Besides Saber, who he fought in Zero and thus has knowledge on her abilties, Gil has no way to determine on his own just how strong or weak someone is.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx I believe Gilgamesh knows a bit about Archers stats and abilities (because of Lancer)
And against Shirou he had ample time to figure that out over the duration of the battle cuz as i remember the battle was pretty long, (it started at night and i think ended in dawn).
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
@MrQvmateo and again, that's why Shirou kept up the constant offensive against gilgamesh. He had to keep up that pressure and not let Gilgamesh actually collect himself or get his act back together. He fully admits that if Gil gets his composure, he'll lose.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx and that's my point aswell his over the top arrogance is what i think he has a huge flaw. He just puts himself at the losing side, and in wars you don't get second chances.(why would shirou give him the chance to regain his composure anyway?).
Gilgamesh just has a huge weakness cuz of his arrogance.
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
@MrQvmateo That is in fact his one major weakness, his pride and arrogance. It's that arrogance which keeps him from going all out against opponents and thus leads to his defeats.
Assuming Gilgamesh was watching the fight between Lancer and Archer (can't recall) while he'll be able to know their moves and sets, he still wouldn't know their stats unless his master told him.
*cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx i would assume Kotomine told Gilgamesh what Archers stats were since Kotomine can use magic that allows him to see through his servants eyes like in fate zero he used this magic with his assassins.
Its like Tokiomi's strategy in using Assassins to gather intel on other servants. the same thing is done with lancer. except lancer fights the other servants, assassins only watch.
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
@MrQvmateo In the entirey of F/SN universe, there is only one servant who has ever fought a serious Gilgamesh and that's Fate Zero Iskander. This is the only battle in which Gil really has to use Ea to its full potential because otherwise, even with Gate of Babylon, he has no chance against Ionian Hetioari.
Heck, Iskander and his horse alone were taking the full force of GoB to the face and for iskander he didn't stop until Gil used Ekidnu. And that was without Gordius Wheel.
cont
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@MrQvmateo In the entirey of F/SN universe, there is only one servant who has ever fought a serious Gilgamesh and that's Fate Zero Iskander. This is the only battle in which Gil really has to use Ea to its full potential because otherwise, even with Gate of Babylon, he has no chance against Ionian Hetioari.
Heck, Iskander and his horse alone were taking the full force of GoB to the face and for iskander he didn't stop until Gil used Ekidnu. And that was without Gordius Wheel.
cont
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@MrQvmateo F/SN & Zero Berserker, F/SN & Zero Caster, F/SN, True and Zero Assassin, F/SN & Zero Lancer, Saber (assuming she doesn't have Avalon) F/SN Rider none of these servants are even capable of handling Gate of Babylon even less if Gil is actually serious. He's just that overpowered.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx i actually think Zero Berserker has a decent chance of beating Gilgamesh.
because like with Shirou, Gilgamesh underestimates him so he won't use Ea, He probably can keep up with Gate of Babylon and he has no divinity Enkidu wont affect him.
As long as Saber isn't around there fight or his master doesn't go empty on prana he'd have a decent chance in my opinion.
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
@MrQvmateo Unfortunately Zero Berserker actually can't, regardless if Gil uses Ea or not. Zero Berserker can handle about 16+ weapons from Gate of Babylon but it's stated that as Gil started opening up GoB to 30+ weapons, Zero Berserker wasn't going to fair nearly as well.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx hmm i believe that statement was one of Riders internal monologues?
i think Rider was just jumping to a conclusion there cuz he thought that not knowing that Berserker actually used his noble phantasm "A Knight Does Not Die with Empty Hands" in defending against GoB.
My understanding of that statement is that Rider mistakenly deduced that Berserker was defending without using any NP and was just defending because of high agility and endurance.
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx and that any servant no matter how high their stats where cannot possibly defend against 30 noble phantasms.
that statement is more likely a wrong deduction by Rider because of Berserkers stats being unreadable and Berserkers NP being a very unconventional one. LOL did that make sense? sorry for my english btw.
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
@MrQvmateo When back and personally re-read the fight just to make sure. Rider doesn't make the assumption himself but is overall idea basically shared by everyone or a narratoin itself of the story itself.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@MrQvmateo Also don't be bothered by your English, it's good. Better than my typing right now.
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@MrQvmateo Even Ea, without being use to its full potential, is still vastly stonger than Rho Aius (Archer's greatest defense) and its output is already on par if not higher than Excalibur itself. Then you see the stats differences themselves where Archer pretty much irc, has the lowest stats and each of his stats is one or two ranks lower than Gil's.
*Cont*
ReroOnyx 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx Gilgamesh truly outclasses Archer in raw stats, but Archer is probably the most resourceful servant and the one that has the most experience in battle. (due to him becoming a counter guardian), with his Mind's Eye he may be able to predict Gilgamesh's attacks so he can evade or maybe counter them.He pressure Gil better than Shirou.
I think if he uses Ea in the Beginning of the match Gilgamesh wins, but he probably won't do that cuz as i said, he underestimates Archer.
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ReroOnyx Gilgamesh truly outclasses Archer in raw stats, but Archer is probably the most resourceful servant and the one that has the most experience in battle. (due to him becoming a counter guardian), with his Mind's Eye he may be able to predict Gilgamesh's attacks so he can evade or maybe counter them.He pressure Gil better than Shirou.
I think if he uses Ea in the Beginning of the match Gilgamesh wins, but he probably won't do that cuz as i said, he underestimates Archer.
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ReroOnyx Gilgamesh truly outclasses Archer in raw stats, but Archer is probably the most resourceful servant and the one that has the most experience in battle. (due to him becoming a counter guardian), with his Mind's Eye he may be able to predict Gilgamesh's attacks so he can evade or maybe counter them.He pressure Gil better than Shirou.
I think if he uses Ea in the Beginning of the match Gilgamesh wins, but he probably won't do that cuz as i said, he underestimates Archer.
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ReroOnyx Gilgamesh truly outclasses Archer in raw stats, but Archer is probably the most resourceful servant and the one that has the most experience in battle. (due to him becoming a counter guardian), with his Mind's Eye he may be able to predict Gilgamesh's attacks so he can evade or maybe counter them.He pressure Gil better than Shirou.
I think if he uses Ea in the Beginning of the match Gilgamesh wins, but he probably won't do that cuz as i said, he underestimates Archer.
MrQvmateo 1 month ago
@ReroOnyx Gilgamesh truly outclasses Archer in raw stats, but Archer is probably the most resourceful servant and the one that has the most experience in battle. (due to him becoming a counter guardian), with his Mind's Eye he may be able to predict Gilgamesh's attacks so he can evade or maybe counter them.He pressure Gil better than Shirou.
I think if he uses Ea in the Beginning of the match Gilgamesh wins, but he probably won't do that cuz as i said, he underestimates Archer.
MrQvmateo 1 month ago