@TheCrookedTimber I am surprised, I thought you said that bishops in your denomination are not the Pope of Rome, and here you are saying that no one can condemn any of them or their teaching! How confusing. You have also insinuated that what an Orthodox Patriarch says is not important! How confusing! But since abortion is not an important issue in your church, I guess no of this really matters anyway.
@TheCrookedTimber Yes, you are probably correct. I suppose if I could understand hellenism I could understand how a canonical bishop (an "Ecumenical" one at that) of your denomination can teach what you declare is contrary to your faith, but still remain a bishop. Yes, it must be my fault. it could not possibly be a defect of your own ecclesiology!
@TheCrookedTimber So he is condemned? I have yet to see it. One suspects that if the archbishop of Canterbury grew a longer beard and wore a silly hat, you could be in communion with him as well since what a bishop teachers or does not teach doesn't matter in your religion.
@TheCrookedTimber So, you are right even if you are wrong! I guess, what you believe, or do not believe, is really whatever! Well, I suppose you can simply keep throwing anathamas at whomever...
@TheCrookedTimber Well no one seems to be taking this very seriously in your denomination. Making it all, very much like in Anglicanism, simply making your church a personal opinion. You are against abortion, find and dandy, and your religious leader is pro-abortion, also fine and dandy. I would, if I were you, modify your attitudes towards Anglicanism!
@TheCrookedTimber So you and your Patriarch belong to different religions? He invents his, and you invent yours? It is very confusing. At least you are now admitting that he is indeed pro-abortion.
@TheCrookedTimber If this were true, then "Orthodox" bishops, canonical ones that is, should condemn and refuse to maintain eucharistic communion with him: no one has. Even in Anglicanism there are bishops who refuse to concelebrate with Ms. Schori and have condemned her, I do not see anything like this in the Greek religion. I am happy that you are not a Papist. The same Patriarch declared, "Hellenism is Orthodoxy and Orthodoxy is Hellenism." He must belong to a different religion than you.
@TheCrookedTimber So it does not matter if your leaders are heretics? You simply remain in communion with them so long as they continue to preserve Hellenism?
@TheCrookedTimber Please see: "First Things." Oct 27, 2009. Then get back with me (Can be found by googling "Not so pro-life Patriarch.") Please see another statement where I stated that your ecclesiology seems very similar to that of Anglicanism, it does not really seem to matter what anyone believes, including Patriarchs, it is all simply private opinion in your denomination. I guess this also explains awards to pro-abortion Greek-American politicians.Papist or Byzantinist, about the same.
IGNATIUS TO THE SMYRNAEANS VIII. Avoid divisions,as the beginning of evil. Follow, all of you, the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed the Father; and follow the presbytery as the Apostles.
Moreover reverence the deacons as the commandment of God. Let no man do aught pertaining to the Church apart from the bishop. Let that eucharist be considered valid which is under the bishop or him to whom he commits it. Wheresoever the bishop appears, there let the people be, even as wheresoever Christ
@yshuasgathering Your falling back on ad hominem and not dealing with the issue of a major leader in your denomination declaring his support for a "women's right to choose" is pathetic to say the least.
May God have mercy on us sinners and lead us into all truth...
I wish to follow the advice of The Apostle when he says:
"I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them."
@yshuasgathering If I were a Greek and such things were directed towards my religious leader, Pat. Bartholomeos, regardless of his opinions on abortion, I would be offended. Personally, I do not support his position on abortion, but since no Orthodox bishop has condemned him for such support, it must be all right to hold such opinions in the Orthodox church.
"Also, to be considered "canonical" you must be in communion with Constantinople."
i must have missed that...that sounds more like The Anglicans and their relation ship to the Archbisop of Canterbury...
is Patriarch Bartholomew to be obeyed about abortion even if it is against 2000 years of Apostolic teaching? That kind obedience sounds more like Rome...
Since the Patriarch Batholomeos has already stated that the Orthodox Church is pro-abortion and believes in a woman's right to chose and has given awards to pro-choice Greek-American politicians, this individual, an ex-Episcopalian, needs to be obedient to the head of the church!
Kevin, imagine my surprise when you claim "the Orthodox Church is pro-abortion." Do you have anything besides some questionable choices by Patriarch Bartholomew on which to base this? Doctrinal truth supercedes obedience as a claim on the hearts of the faithful.
@yshuasgathering So the Orthodox Church is the same as the Episcopal Church? What your leaders believe and teach is not important? Only personal opinion? Jonah has his and the Patriarch has his theological opinions and the individual is free to believe whatever one they wish too?
@Kevin41581 show me where i said that. we have Bishops,Archbishops,Priests,Metropolitans...one reason for the great split was the Bishop of Rome was demanding too much power...do you want us to turn around and give that power to Constantinople?
Last time I looked,the OCA was not in Patriarch Bartholomew's jurisdiction.
@yshuasgathering But you are in full eucharistic communion with him. Also, to be considered "canonical" you must be in communion with Constantinople. So if you are in eucharistic communion with Pat Bart. you obviously accept his position on abortion as the teachings of your denomination. Your ecclesiology is very, very much like that of the Episcopal Church.
@yshuasgathering It seems strange that a Russian import denomination, preserving Russian tradition can be considered as an "American' Church; it would appear that the Greeks (with a far, far larger number of members) have just as much right to such platitudes.
1 Timothy 6:4-6 (King James Version) 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. 6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
@yshuasgathering So you are not in communion with the Greek Orthodox church because it is pro-abortion? Your responses are very hard to follow and very confusing. The real issue is that Jonah declares that the Orthodox Church is opposed to abortion and the Patriarch of the Greek Orthodox church has declared the opposite; hence, the real issue, is that theology appears only a personal opinion in your denomination (for you "The Church," but not to all; learn to live with it).
The Orthodox Church is NOT pro abortion. Orthodoxy is pro life from the cradle to the grace. Now, +Bartholomew is not the head of the church, he is a figure head only with no authority over the larger church. This supposed 'shepherd of souls' has proven any number of times in many different areas he is not Orthodox. He is a modernist and Ecumenist.
The Orthodox Church is NOT pro abortion. Orthodoxy is pro life from the cradle to the grave. Now, +Bartholomew is not the head of the church, he is a figure head only with no authority over the larger church. This supposed 'shepherd of souls' has proven any number of times in many different areas he is not Orthodox. He is a modernist and Ecumenist.
If you define Canonical in terms of submission to an old world Patriarch then you do not understand Orthodox. There is no such thing as a Canonical anything. See: celticorthodoxchurch com/canon28.html and the articles from it. I have no interest in curther back and forth, just read an learn. Constantinople recognized our Apostolic Succession when NONE OF OUR BISHOPS WERE IN UNION WITH HIM. That is on my succession page. You can read the letters.
@TheCelticboi What is it about you people and the ad hominem attack? It appears, as I have said, that your religion is simply a personal opinion, you may believe whatever you wish to, and that includes your leaders. One may be either pro-life, yourself, or pro-abortion the Ecumenical Patriarch; but you do not have the right to declare that your religion is pro-life, only certain members are, and some are not. No authority in your religion has publicly condemned Pat. Bart's position on this.
We are not associated with any Old World Patriarch and Celtic Orthodoxy is NOT a matter of personal opinion. It is the ancient faith once delivered to the Saints.
We are Orthodox in faith, order and worship. I will not continue this meaningless back and forth any longer. The devil is the only one that can gain by us fighting.
Thank you. Please see my Orthodox video promotions on youtube under marykfilms.
marykfilms 4 weeks ago
@TheCrookedTimber I am surprised, I thought you said that bishops in your denomination are not the Pope of Rome, and here you are saying that no one can condemn any of them or their teaching! How confusing. You have also insinuated that what an Orthodox Patriarch says is not important! How confusing! But since abortion is not an important issue in your church, I guess no of this really matters anyway.
Kevin41581 1 year ago
@Kevin41581
get a life
Gunnarr123abc 11 months ago
@Gunnarr123abc
You too!!!!
Kevin41581 11 months ago
@TheCrookedTimber Yes, you are probably correct. I suppose if I could understand hellenism I could understand how a canonical bishop (an "Ecumenical" one at that) of your denomination can teach what you declare is contrary to your faith, but still remain a bishop. Yes, it must be my fault. it could not possibly be a defect of your own ecclesiology!
Kevin41581 1 year ago
@TheCrookedTimber So your group of Orthodox are not in communion with him? Good!
Kevin41581 1 year ago
@TheCrookedTimber So he is condemned? I have yet to see it. One suspects that if the archbishop of Canterbury grew a longer beard and wore a silly hat, you could be in communion with him as well since what a bishop teachers or does not teach doesn't matter in your religion.
Kevin41581 1 year ago
@TheCrookedTimber So, you are right even if you are wrong! I guess, what you believe, or do not believe, is really whatever! Well, I suppose you can simply keep throwing anathamas at whomever...
Kevin41581 1 year ago
@TheCrookedTimber Well no one seems to be taking this very seriously in your denomination. Making it all, very much like in Anglicanism, simply making your church a personal opinion. You are against abortion, find and dandy, and your religious leader is pro-abortion, also fine and dandy. I would, if I were you, modify your attitudes towards Anglicanism!
Kevin41581 1 year ago
@TheCrookedTimber So you and your Patriarch belong to different religions? He invents his, and you invent yours? It is very confusing. At least you are now admitting that he is indeed pro-abortion.
Kevin41581 1 year ago
@TheCrookedTimber If this were true, then "Orthodox" bishops, canonical ones that is, should condemn and refuse to maintain eucharistic communion with him: no one has. Even in Anglicanism there are bishops who refuse to concelebrate with Ms. Schori and have condemned her, I do not see anything like this in the Greek religion. I am happy that you are not a Papist. The same Patriarch declared, "Hellenism is Orthodoxy and Orthodoxy is Hellenism." He must belong to a different religion than you.
Kevin41581 1 year ago
@TheCrookedTimber So it does not matter if your leaders are heretics? You simply remain in communion with them so long as they continue to preserve Hellenism?
Kevin41581 1 year ago
@TheCrookedTimber Please see: "First Things." Oct 27, 2009. Then get back with me (Can be found by googling "Not so pro-life Patriarch.") Please see another statement where I stated that your ecclesiology seems very similar to that of Anglicanism, it does not really seem to matter what anyone believes, including Patriarchs, it is all simply private opinion in your denomination. I guess this also explains awards to pro-abortion Greek-American politicians.Papist or Byzantinist, about the same.
Kevin41581 1 year ago
IGNATIUS TO THE SMYRNAEANS VIII. Avoid divisions,as the beginning of evil. Follow, all of you, the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed the Father; and follow the presbytery as the Apostles.
Moreover reverence the deacons as the commandment of God. Let no man do aught pertaining to the Church apart from the bishop. Let that eucharist be considered valid which is under the bishop or him to whom he commits it. Wheresoever the bishop appears, there let the people be, even as wheresoever Christ
yshuasgathering 1 year ago
I have read your posts kevin...you are looking for a fight...good luck with that...God Bless you
yshuasgathering 1 year ago
@yshuasgathering Your falling back on ad hominem and not dealing with the issue of a major leader in your denomination declaring his support for a "women's right to choose" is pathetic to say the least.
Kevin41581 1 year ago
@Kevin41581
May God have mercy on us sinners and lead us into all truth...
I wish to follow the advice of The Apostle when he says:
"I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them."
yshuasgathering 1 year ago
@yshuasgathering If I were a Greek and such things were directed towards my religious leader, Pat. Bartholomeos, regardless of his opinions on abortion, I would be offended. Personally, I do not support his position on abortion, but since no Orthodox bishop has condemned him for such support, it must be all right to hold such opinions in the Orthodox church.
Kevin41581 1 year ago
Comment removed
yshuasgathering 1 year ago
"Also, to be considered "canonical" you must be in communion with Constantinople."
i must have missed that...that sounds more like The Anglicans and their relation ship to the Archbisop of Canterbury...
is Patriarch Bartholomew to be obeyed about abortion even if it is against 2000 years of Apostolic teaching? That kind obedience sounds more like Rome...
yshuasgathering 1 year ago
God Bless Metropolitan Jonah
yshuasgathering 1 year ago
If one bothers to goggle pro-abortion Patriarch, one will find quite a bit of information on this.
Kevin41581 1 year ago
Since the Patriarch Batholomeos has already stated that the Orthodox Church is pro-abortion and believes in a woman's right to chose and has given awards to pro-choice Greek-American politicians, this individual, an ex-Episcopalian, needs to be obedient to the head of the church!
Kevin41581 1 year ago
@Kevin41581
Kevin, imagine my surprise when you claim "the Orthodox Church is pro-abortion." Do you have anything besides some questionable choices by Patriarch Bartholomew on which to base this? Doctrinal truth supercedes obedience as a claim on the hearts of the faithful.
ptrvns47 1 year ago 3
@Kevin41581 ,"needs to be obedient to the head of the church!"
Christ and the teachings of the Apostles are the head of the church...Metropolitan Jonah is absolutely obeying the head of the Church.
The Orthodox Church has no All Powerful Pope
yshuasgathering 1 year ago
@yshuasgathering So the Orthodox Church is the same as the Episcopal Church? What your leaders believe and teach is not important? Only personal opinion? Jonah has his and the Patriarch has his theological opinions and the individual is free to believe whatever one they wish too?
Kevin41581 1 year ago
@Kevin41581 show me where i said that. we have Bishops,Archbishops,Priests,Metropolitans...one reason for the great split was the Bishop of Rome was demanding too much power...do you want us to turn around and give that power to Constantinople?
Last time I looked,the OCA was not in Patriarch Bartholomew's jurisdiction.
yshuasgathering 1 year ago
@yshuasgathering But you are in full eucharistic communion with him. Also, to be considered "canonical" you must be in communion with Constantinople. So if you are in eucharistic communion with Pat Bart. you obviously accept his position on abortion as the teachings of your denomination. Your ecclesiology is very, very much like that of the Episcopal Church.
Kevin41581 1 year ago
Comment removed
yshuasgathering 1 year ago
But it is the local Church, the presbyters and
the deacons, and the faithful people gathered around their bishop.
This is the fullness of the catholic Church. This is the fullness of
the Orthodox Church as it was given to us from the holy Fathers, as it
was given to us by the Apostles. And, it is this that we must affirm.
Met .Jonah
yshuasgathering 1 year ago
@yshuasgathering It seems strange that a Russian import denomination, preserving Russian tradition can be considered as an "American' Church; it would appear that the Greeks (with a far, far larger number of members) have just as much right to such platitudes.
Kevin41581 1 year ago
1 Timothy 6:4-6 (King James Version) 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. 6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
yshuasgathering 1 year ago
@Kevin41581 No less than the Roman Catholic Church, which derives from dozens of foreign countries.
johnross12 1 year ago
That Church exists now, here, in our midst. It was planted by our
Fathers in the faith generations ago, on this continent. It has grown
and bears fruit. And, it subsists out of our common sacrificial
commitment to Jesus Christ. Let us give thanks to God for our unity,
let us give thanks to God for our diversity. Let us affirm to our
bishops that they will tell the bishops of the Old World,
"There is an American Orthodox Church. Leave it alone."
Metropolitan Jonah
yshuasgathering 1 year ago
@Kevin41581"Because the canonical organization of the Church, according to the
Holy Apostles and all of the ancient Fathers, is not about some kind
of international organization where we look 8000 miles away for some
source of canonicity.
Met Jonah
yshuasgathering 1 year ago
@yshuasgathering So you are not in communion with the Greek Orthodox church because it is pro-abortion? Your responses are very hard to follow and very confusing. The real issue is that Jonah declares that the Orthodox Church is opposed to abortion and the Patriarch of the Greek Orthodox church has declared the opposite; hence, the real issue, is that theology appears only a personal opinion in your denomination (for you "The Church," but not to all; learn to live with it).
Kevin41581 1 year ago
@Kevin41581 "you obviously accept his position on abortion as the teachings of your denomination."
Orthodoxy is not a denomination it is "The Church"
yshuasgathering 1 year ago
The Orthodox Church is NOT pro abortion. Orthodoxy is pro life from the cradle to the grace. Now, +Bartholomew is not the head of the church, he is a figure head only with no authority over the larger church. This supposed 'shepherd of souls' has proven any number of times in many different areas he is not Orthodox. He is a modernist and Ecumenist.
TheCelticboi 1 year ago
The Orthodox Church is NOT pro abortion. Orthodoxy is pro life from the cradle to the grave. Now, +Bartholomew is not the head of the church, he is a figure head only with no authority over the larger church. This supposed 'shepherd of souls' has proven any number of times in many different areas he is not Orthodox. He is a modernist and Ecumenist.
TheCelticboi 1 year ago
@TheCelticboi So you are NOT in eucharistic communion with him...and hence, non-canonical?
Kevin41581 1 year ago
If you define Canonical in terms of submission to an old world Patriarch then you do not understand Orthodox. There is no such thing as a Canonical anything. See: celticorthodoxchurch com/canon28.html and the articles from it. I have no interest in curther back and forth, just read an learn. Constantinople recognized our Apostolic Succession when NONE OF OUR BISHOPS WERE IN UNION WITH HIM. That is on my succession page. You can read the letters.
TheCelticboi 1 year ago
@TheCelticboi It is obvious that you have no idea of the ecclesiology of Orthodoxy. Many sects claim to be Orthodox, that does not make them so.
Kevin41581 1 year ago
I thought you had something intelligent to add, guess not. Study history and see the Patriarchs are not the source of Canonicity or grace.
TheCelticboi 1 year ago
@TheCelticboi What is it about you people and the ad hominem attack? It appears, as I have said, that your religion is simply a personal opinion, you may believe whatever you wish to, and that includes your leaders. One may be either pro-life, yourself, or pro-abortion the Ecumenical Patriarch; but you do not have the right to declare that your religion is pro-life, only certain members are, and some are not. No authority in your religion has publicly condemned Pat. Bart's position on this.
Kevin41581 1 year ago
We are not associated with any Old World Patriarch and Celtic Orthodoxy is NOT a matter of personal opinion. It is the ancient faith once delivered to the Saints.
We are Orthodox in faith, order and worship. I will not continue this meaningless back and forth any longer. The devil is the only one that can gain by us fighting.
May God bless you and keep you.
Bishop Brian J. Kennedy,
Holy Trinity Celtic Orthodox Church
Toledo, Ohio
celticorthodoxchurch com
TheCelticboi 1 year ago
@TheCelticboi Since it appears that your group is not canonical, it then must be the epitome of "personal opinion."
Kevin41581 1 year ago
@Kevin41581 If Patriarch Batholomeos is "pro-choice", then he is a traitor and false teacher, and should be dealt with by higher authority than he.
BBlueu2 9 months ago
His Grace nailed it!!!
aeghj03 2 years ago