Ray is a pity he did not read the story of life within the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. The Creator of all things, which is much larger than quelaquer man or organization can somehow we humans so limited, grant peace you sought earnestly seek throughout his career. Thanks Ray....
I have been silent for nearly 50 years until I stumbled on to one of these jehovah's witness videos. I realized that there are so many who have suffered at the hands of this fanatical brainwashing cult. Now I will add my voice to the growing numbers of those who came to realize that this is a dangerous, fanatical cult that DEMANDS complete obedience without question, the wtbt society's teachings. islam believes in honor killings, jw's is worse, the "Shunning bullet" makes you wish U were dead
Hello, i have just seen a video that said when Ray left the Watchtower he switched to believing the Trinity, is this correct? (search ray franz trinity) Thanks
@Mis4el1973 Love how you put your head in the sand. How about reading only reading older WTBTS books you'll be amazed what you'll uncover regarding the WTBTS past.
@TheBrightpower Love how ur prejudiced mind blocks ur way of thinking. FYI: I've read it ALL. I resent ur prejudices about what Ive read and not. I suggest u dont judge me so fast. How about focus on what the bible really teaches rather than pointing out errors of imperfect humans to make us look bad? I suppose ur flawless and perfect? I mean.... u must be since u feel that u have the right to judge.
If Satan could lure angels to follow him and fool two perfect humans (of which atleast Adam had lived for several 100 yrs b4 shunned from Eden) why does apostates celebrate an imperfect human? As if R.F would be the ultimate proof that Jehovah's Witnesses is a false religion? Makes no sense whatsoever. Dont put ur faith to a human. Put ur faith to Jehovah God!
@Mis4el1973 It's not Raymond Franz that people are putting their trust in, but the truths that he drew their attention to that enabled them to see the WT organization in the realistic light that people like yourself are yet to see it in. I encourage you to read his books. And yes, put your faith in Jehovah God not in some organization, comprised of imperfect men, that claims to be His sole channel of communication and to be the only ones who represent him correctly.
@TheAlan39 When the true christians in the first century was doing Gods work. Were there any other christian communities? No. Did they believe that others could have Jehovahs blessing outside their community? No. Does the bible mention more than 1 truth? No. So u see.. there can only be one belief that God approves of. Not several beliefs with different doctrines. God works only through one channel. Not through many. U might want to study the bible about this. Good bye.
@Mis4el1973 The true church was birthed 2000 yrs ago and has become divided because of people thinking they were the only ones who had the pure unadulterated truth and subsequently separating themselves from the rest of us. Charles Taze Russell was a man such as this who exemplified the very spirit that's reponsible for all the divisions we now see. But JW's deceive themselves into believing that because they are united among themselves (which btw, every group is) that somehow they're (cont)
@Mis4el1973 (cont2) above (in some high and lofty place) all the silly little scisms and divisions that christian church has become know for when in actual fact they just added one more little denomination when Russell and his adherants separated themselves.
God knows those that are His, those that are loyal to Him and set out to live by His truth to the best of their abililty and one day they will be one flock under one shepherd in a visible way.
@Mis4el1973 And even if there were one church that God had selected to represent Himself. Why would it be the WT society? They've made a host of false predictions and have changed there mind about certain truths on too many occasions to mention. If you believed something now that you believed 40 yrs ago you'd be disfellowshipped for it. Read Rays books and let the truth in them pop the false reality bubble you're living in.
@TheAlan39 The only ones actually following Christs commands is Jehovah's Witnesses. The only ones actually EDUCATING people about Jehovahs way and his will. You cannot base a faith 90% on singing and charismatic TV-preachers. Such a faith is very shallow. 1 John 4:1 FYI WT has never ever made a public announcement about the "false predictions" that yer mentioning. I'm sorry I'm not reading any apostate books. I dont need to read his garbage. I can make my own conclusions tyvm. Good bye
@Mis4el1973 "Does the Bible mention more than one truth? No."
The fact is bro the overwhelming majority of christians churches believe all the core truths that are essential to salvation and christian living. As someone once said, 'The church has shown the uncanny ability to agree on 98% of things but be divided over the 2% they don't agree on. And Jw's aren't separate from this division, they're are part of it.
There is only one truth and it has always been God intention to use His (cont)
@TheAlan39 Yeah.... whatever u wrote wont fall in good soil here, ty. I've studied the bible in such an immense way that whatever negative stuff u have to say about Jehovahs witnesses and whatnot doesnt fly. There is only one truth. And that is that who ever identify themselves with Gods name and use it in their prayers, talk to people about Gods name and his kingdom is those who actually are Gods friends. Hiding Gods name, neglecting to use it doesnt honor God Jehovah.
@Mis4el1973 Never once in the the NT was using the name Jehovah part of the criteria to test if one was a true believer or not.(see 1st John) In fact, the name Jehovah was not found in any of the 5000 existent ancient manuscripts of the NT, from which our modern day versions of the Bible have been translated. There is nothing found that supports the WT society inserting the name Jehovah 237 times in the NT section of their New World translation. The great importance the WT places upon (cont)
@TheAlan39 ...and for the rest of the dogmatic comments. YOu really need to study the Bible a bit more before u make such comments that Gods name was never mentioned in NT. Jesus, the apostles and the rest of the first century christians frequently quoted and studied the hebrew scriptures which was filled with Gods word and they quoted a lot from the hebrew scriptures, which was written down and today known as NT, or greek scriptures. Would be funny if they didnt use Gods name. Think again...
@Mis4el1973 The fact is bro, not one of the ancients Manuscripts found of the NT contains the name Jehovah in the way that your New World Translation contains it. You need to base your beliefs on the hard facts not on how you would like to imagine things were.
Your obviously very attached to this organization and believe everything it tells you and distrust anyone from outside of it and reject what they are saying even of they bring to your attention indisputable historical facts.
@Mis4el1973 Your friendship with the organization is stopping you being a friend of truth. Is causing you to willfully turn away from it. You say you can do your own research about other churches, but then say, " I'm sorry, I'm not reading any apostate books, I don't need to read that garbage". So your research basically amounts to hearing the warped version of reality the WT feeds you on a weekly basis. Open your eyes bro, they're are the ones practicing propaganda not me.
@Mis4el1973 (cont2) making the name of Jehovah known or using it in their prayers is in no way reflected in the ancient NT manuscripts. Even with the unjustifiable insertion of Jehovah 237 times it still not that much when you consider that the name Jesus appears 912 times and God 1275 times. So it would be unfair to to see using the name Jehovah in prayers and preaching etc as a way of identifying who God's true people are.
Ray Franz wrote a brilliant chapter on this subject in his 2nd (cont)
@Mis4el1973 (cont3) book "In search of christian freedom" called "A people for His name" between pages 489-523 in the copy I have. He will do a lot better job of explaining it to you than I have or will. I don't believe you could read it reflectively and come away with the same view you currently have.
@TheAlan39 Even if churches say that they "believe", their actions shows what lies in their hearts. Agreeing on stuff is not hard. But to actually live up to what u agree upon as a christian is harder. Churches support wars, they fraternise with the world and the political system, Jesus ran away when they wanted to make him a King, a political leader. That pretty much removes 99% of all churches concerning bibli criteria, according to Gods principles. Well.. that is all I had to say.
@Mis4el1973 I want to point out to that nowhere in the Bible does it say, that fighting in a war, supporting a war or being part of an army is a mark of a non believer. Jesus in his dealings with the Roman centurian or Peter in his dealings with Cornelius (also a centurian) never once referred to their occupations let alone asked them to get out of it. Also Paul dealt with men in politics and although tried to convert them to christianity, never once spoke negatively of their occupation.
@Mis4el197 I agree that neither Jesus nor the Apostles tried to get into politics or positions of rulership or started an army in order to further their cause. But they never said it was a sin to be in any of those positions or that it indicated you weren't a true child of God. The criteria you're using to determine whether someone is a true child of God or not is not the criteria we were given in the NT to make this determination. And the criteria we WERE given doesn't exclude 99% of christians
@TheAlan39 Never said it was a sin to be in that position? Do you think its wise to vote for a human government when Jehovah clearly says in Dan 2:44 that he's going to destroy the kingdoms of this world order? Furthermore Jesus said "love thy enemy" = dont kill people in war, dont support the government with their corrupt politicians, they cannot speak for you as a christian, NEVER. They look to whats best for themselves before they look to whats best in Gods eyes.
@Mis4el1973 Bro, I never said, I put my trust in politicians or that I look to them to peak on my behalf as a christian. But the fact is somebody has to be in power and it's no sin (there's no scriptural basis for any such assertion) for me to put my vote in for who I think would be best for the country. Even if it's a matter of the better of two evils at least my vote can help put the better man in and ensure a better quality of life for all the people affected.
@Mis4el1973 So when I vote for a politicain, I'm not, by doing so, declaring my total and unwavering support for everything he thinks says and does, but am simply saying, of the available candidates, he is the best person for the job. That does not in any way take away from my belief that Christ would be the ultimate ruler or implies that I'm handing my allegiance over to a man and not Christ. Have a think about it.
@Mis4el1973 When it comes to fighting in a war, one man may decide the loving thing to do is to put his life on the line to fight against the invading power in order to spare his fellow countrymen (women and children) from what would be a cruel, oppressive and exploitative regime. Another may decide it would be unloving to take up arms against the invaders and let them come in and take over.
Where the scriptures are not clear on such an issue, let every man be guided by his own conscience.
@Mis4el19 If you were out walking your dog one day and I was there with you and then suddenly you were physically attacked unjustly by some bullying thug, would the most loving thing be for me to enter into the fight on your behalf or just stand back and let you get beaten up?
In a perfect world you wouldn't need an army or a police force that had to at times resort to voilence. But the fact is we live in a fallen world and moreover you too as a Jw are protected by their presence in our world.
@TheAlan39 If you want "friendship with the world" then youre constituting yourself as an enemy of God. The worldly govts are a part of this world order. Satan is the ruler of this world order as "the god of this system of things" and is "misleading the entire inhabited earth" so how can u put ur trust to politicians who are run by Satan? So in conclusion: Yes, it is wrong in God Jehovahs eyes to be in a political position. (James 4:4; Rev 12:9; 2 Cor 4:4)
@Mis4el1973 Also, your negative view of the christian church, seeing them as not living up to what they agree is the truth. Although, to be fair, has some merit, is, I believe, a result of being heavily indoctinated by an organization that is determined to get you to see them as lukewarm and compromising, by constantly drawing your attention to the negative things they do and failing to bring to your attention the positive and honorable things they do and have done. There has been many (cont)
@Mis4el1973 (cont2) martyrs and people devoted to spreading the truth, (often at a great cost to themselves) in the past 120 yrs since the WT has been in existence, that you would need a few lifetimes to read about in full. What you've been fed about other believers is largely a myth.
Remember the WT's agenda is to portray themselves as the only ones faithful to Jehovah and the rest of the church as having prostituted themselves to the world. Time for you to check their claims out for yourself.
@TheAlan39 Dude, I really honestly don't care about your propaganda. I have eyes, I can see for myself. I have ears I can listen and make my own conclusions. I can study and make researches about other churches. My faith is firmly rooted with Jehovahs people, and made solid by knowledge through years and years of meticulous regular Bible studies every day, every week. Its fine. Save your breath.
@Mis4el1973 regarding your comments Your rude, arrogant, and misleading, as is your leaders. I have one thing you need to understand. Per your teachings you are out of your integrity with your God. Hypocrite!
You have heard and told yourself this crap for so long you don't notice when you are a liar, and a fraud.
@19868441 I have one thing you need to understand. I am very much capable of making my own researches about what I have been taught, I make my own studies and every time I see that it is correct to the letter, of what I'm being taught. Jesus wouldnt call med Satan... and you call me rude? Oh, dear... true apostate comment. Hypocrite? Thats only your opinion. Bye now, have a nice life.
@Mis4el1(cont2) church that He birthed into existence 2000 yrs ago not 120 yrs ago to bring it forth. And through all the mess of church history (which I reiterate Jw's have been a part of not separate from) His truth has been advancing. So if you want to believe God's only working through you guys even though there is not a single mention of you in scripture nor any supernatural signs pointing to you being entrusted with this great responsibility then go for it. But I believe Your missing out.
@TheAlan39 The heathen times would start after the last apostle had died @ end of 1st cent when christians were infected by worldly thoughts and human traditions. Paul talked about that. (Acts 20:29,30) The prophecies is clear on what would happen, and when J.C finally would reign as king in the heavens @ the end of times when a preaching campaign would take place lead by J.C. Read carefully what Matt 24:14 and 28:19, 20 teaches. Who is preaching about Gods kingdom? (Isa 52:7; Rom 10:13-15)
What I don´t understand is why isn´t his wife printing MORE Crisis books? They are damn hard to get a hold of. Why aren´t they available at book stores? You have probably a million people who want to read it!
Ray and Cynthia are perhaps the bravest people I know...
Thank you for helping set me and my wife free from the WTS with your words of truth, love and humility. Hope to see you when we are ALL happy and living in Peace
Raymond Franz ... that God in His infinite wisdom has a wonderful place for you my friend and brother. That Jesus Christ bless you. Rest in peace my friend. I did not know, but I admire his courage to put it right as the main thing to do.
The amount of ignorant hatred about Ray that people spew on his YouTube tribute page is astonishing.
Ray uncovered the practices and methods of the Watchtower leadership. He revealed the humanness of the "man behind the curtain" (like when the Wizard of Oz was exposed). He punctured the aura, and the Watchtower leadership hated him for it. They could not show a single instance of inaccuracy or libel in Ray's books, otherwise they would have sued him for it.
Hello, i have just seen a video that said when Ray left the Watchtower he switched to believing the Trinity, is this correct? (search ray franz trinity) Thanks
@Cesnna172 I recommend you read Rays two books carefully thoughtfully and prayfully considering all the hard facts about the WTO's history Ray presents in His books. I don't believe you'll came away with the same grand view of the organization you have now. You'll realize that the organization you trust so dearly has misled you somewhat regarding their true history. Not to mention misleading you about the character and conduct of other christian churches. What would stop you reading them?
@Cesnna172Oh no,you are blind( like me before i read his book) He don`t hate Jehova!But the WT-Org is a human Orgaisation that fails! They do HUMAN THINGS! He was a truly honest man( In so many countries he preaches and works in the headquarter-he saw things that we don`t saw)!You have been forbidden to read his book!And who has forbidden you to read it?The WT-Org! So you will not read their "human
" false doctrines and opinions that are not found in the bible!Because they are human doctrines!
@DocMegabrain Of course they do HUMAN THING!!! They are humans. We are human, dont we? Jesus said, "If you are not with me, you are against me".He tries to input his deas but the goverment body dont follow ideas and said no way Jose. This is not a platform for your ideas. We follow Jesuschrist. So what did he do???? Write a book of his "memoirs", what the he see and feel. Megabrain READ THE BIBLE DAILY. Instead following men follow the footstep of Jesuschrist. Did you read it today?
@Cesnna172 No, the first place by the WTG are "human opinions and doctrines"-NOT the bible!The bible has the2nd place! And I saw that so many years! Don`t tell me what "my" own eyes see and my ears hear! Yes, I read the bible, BUT NOT HUMAN OPINIONS and DOCTRINS-I DON`T READ THE WATCHTOWER! Jesus says: I am the way ,the truth and the life!The WTOrg. says: WE ARE THE WAY TO HIM.....WE ARE THE CHANNEL.......!:O)))WE ...WE....WE...WE........!
@DocMegabrain Your are a funny person. :))) Dont read the Bible regulary, READ IT DAILY. You dont read humans opinions?? Mmm. Who wrote the Bible?? Angels, God,oh no HUMANS!!!! You are a follower of man, and yes, you follow doctrines... from R. Franz. He wrote what he see and feel.And you are his follower. He was shunning. Of course he hate the WT. Nobody like when someone tell you that you are wrong. But if you are HUMBLE, you analized yourself and thanks. Something that R. Franz refuse to do.
@Cesnna172 No ,the things in the bible are from god-when you read the WT carefully ,you see that`s not the things fron bible,thats the words and prophecy from WTO! But the JW are blind! Ray saw this things and speak over human opinions !That was crime!
@Cesnna172 READ the book " crisis of conscience!" You don`t find bashing or hate against the WTO( Why you say, when you dont know his book???)!but you don`t READ, while the WTO has forbidden!!!:O)Poor,poor people in the Org.!!!
@DocMegabrain In the heavens an angels rebels and he was called later Satan. In moderns days we haved R. Franz. Oh he tries to put down the organization, now he dead and the organization continue and will continued until the finals days. They are growing!!! Remember that! No humans cant to shut up the only true God organization. So keep that in mind. They will continue knocking on your door until God says that is enought. Now is my turn!!
@DocMegabrain Well Megabrain, see you. I will no reply to you no more. The ends is near, just remember, Read the bible daily, not regulary. If you was JW think about it. You have time yet. If never talk with a JW, do it. Listen to them. Dont argue with them. Just listen. They are honest, good people, the only ones who come knocking your door. Other tries, they get tired. Why? Because this works comes from God and not from mens. The WT-Org are merely a corporation that by law they need it.
@Cesnna172 I was a JW 35 years! You are blind! Jesus says: I AM the way ,the truth and the life
! NOT the great channel ,the great preacher, the great god WTO!!!!!!!! " The end is near...." thats are in the Watchtower 1877, than 1911,than 1931( Cedar Point) than 1975....................................The Prophecy is fail! NOW we have 2011-it`s not GODS PROPHECY-it`s Prophecy FROM WTORG! In the bible are no dates to the end: "Nobody" knows the day-only the father---NOT THE WTORG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@DocMegabrain Read Hebrew 12:11 and then 10:32. Its true, 1911,1931 and 1975. The same that R. Franz preach and talks. He was disfellow on the 80s. I knew him, personally and in 1975 been part of the GB he said that the ends come 1975. But what happens in 1979 to 1981? What you read is his point of view. Now the Org in a humble and precious way dont mark time. They just talk and preach what the bible says, The end is near, follow Jesuschrist footstep.
@Cesnna172 AND what the WTO says, I read so many years!And that`s exactly what Ray Franz criticized.The human teachings and beliefs.He don`t criticized the words of Jehova-BUT what makes the WTO , namely human thougs!The end is near( I think so...)but "no one knows"when it comes.Not even the angels, jesus or the WTO( read the own calculations which are not fullfilled-and the changes that were maid by the calculations) ! Read the" bible", brother!Thats right!
@Antifatz You are living in the past. The WT never says that the Organization in the earth is perfect. Of course they are humans, same Franz. He was a human that try to put his "humans ideas" in the GB. You have to be humble, even if no ones think your are right. But no, Franz was not humble at all. He tries to corrupted the WTO but he fails miserable. He was disfellowed for the good of the Organization. And what did he do? Write a book and do a tour promoting his feelling. A black star who died
@Cesnna172 Look at the prophecy over the end ,and the 144.000! How often is the doctrine was changed?Whenever the old version of the doctrine did not arrived( 1887,1914,1931,1975)!!!HUMAN Prophecy-the bible says : NOBODY knows,not the son, not the angels- only the father!And Jehova never changed his words-only human like the WTO!They have ONLY THE SPIRIT FROM GOD??? ( They says :ALL the Spirit comes to us)!? FAIL!
@Cesnna172 Ray NEVER said that he is the god channel! He never said, " YOU MUST DO WHAT WE SAID, BECAUSE WE ONLY HAVE THE SPIRIT FROM JESUS" that`s only the WTO-part! And now: Don`t proof, during the WTO after!
@Antifatz Did you follow any organization at all? Did you was JW before? Are you disfellow member who hate the elders and the WTO because "you dont understand the WTO"and I dont believed in what humans says""? I sins but God understand me? Its that is??? Men you guys are all the same. Be humble my "brother". And if you never was JW, why talking so bad of something that you never tried?
@Antifatz Did you follow any organization at all? Did you was JW before? Are you disfellow member who hate the elders and the WTO because "you dont understand the WTO"and I dont believed in what humans says""? I sins but God understand me? Its that is??? Men you guys are all the same. Be humble my "brother". And if you never was JW, why talking so bad of something that you never tried?
@Cesnna172 There's not two doors to the Father through the WTO and then through Jesus. There is one door to the Father and that is simply Jesus.
The gospel is faith in Christ for your salvation, not membership in an earthly organization and faith in Christ for your salvation. The WTO has in their own way clearly added to the gospel.
Rays books help distinguish between man made rules, traditions and requirements and the simple requirements of God. They break it down to what really matters.
@Cesnna172 The WTO has no right to speak in the name of God or Jesus, to make predictions and revise them again.They have no right to judge others and to place itself above god! God says: "My word is true!"- Read the bible carefully! Not only the Awake and Watchtower!"The word of god,nothing should be added!" and "No one is the lord over your faith"
@Cesnna172 You weren't in the meeting either bro but choose to believe your organizations version of events rather than Rays. An organization notorious for presenting a glossed over version of their history.
Ray didn't reject the Bible or any of Jesus clear and plain stated claims, but rather some of the WTO's unique interpretations and in particular its claim to be God's only channel of communication to the world today and that one has to accept that to be found in right standing with God.
@DocMegabrain Maybe you was disipline by elders, or just left God house, You have time yet. If you was JW for 35 you know the true of this words, Read the bible daily, not regulary. Pray to Jah, he still listing to you. Dont go away. He is your father, your God and your friend. Nobody like when we need somebody to tell us what to do, but that is just following the path of independence. Dont hate the Org, we are all humns, and humans make mistake, so the WT-ORG.
@Cesnna172 Look at the prophecy over the end ,and the 144.000! How often is the doctrine was changed?Whenever the old version of the doctrine did not arrived( 1887,1914,1931,1975)!!!HUMAN Prophecy-the bible says : NOBODY knows,not the son, not the angels- only the father!And Jehova never changed his words-only human like the WTO!They have ONLY THE SPIRIT FROM GOD??? ( They says :ALL the Spirit comes to us)!? FAIL!
@Cesnna172 No,the WTOrg are the Slave( they says, they have the spirit from Jehova)! Did jehova lies? NO! But: where in the bible stands ,Har- magedon comes in few month? i find nothing!!!But the president of WTOrg says that 1931(!) on convention in Cedar Point! Human prophecy or God`s word??? So many different words are comes from WT -bible( 1887-2011)! The different words and opinions was called NEW LIGHT,when it was changed! Did Jehova CHANGED his WORDS???????No!
@Cesnna172 Has tought you something, the WT-Org???You want to be a Christian!? So I know the witnesses-christians outward,but dishonest and blindly following the WT-Org. No matter what the WT-Org orders it is done without brain,without love!The love to Jehova ( not human opinions and doctrines) has RAY FRANZ
Ray Franz's two books clearly outline that legalism and rule-making are major drivers of Watchtower leadership. He carefully documents with copies of actual correspondence to illustrate the point that they are the modern-day Pharisees.
Of course they aren't the only authoritarian religion that uses fear as a stick and false hopes as a carrot.
Who else besides the Watchtower associated with the United Nations while condemning them in their own literature? Who else but the Watchtower has a "two-witness rule" that prevents pedophiles from coming to justice? Who else but the Watchtower incorrectly predicted the end of the world's system to come in 1914, 1915, 1919, 1925, 1975 and before the end of the 20th century? Who else but the Watchtower issues confusing rules on medicine like no whole blood but allow certain defined fractions?
Brofun here continues the written assault against Ray Franz, which echoes what I heard from within the JW organization 25-30 years ago.
Just because he didn't kowtow to the leadership of uncle Freddie (then-leader of the Watchtower Society) doesn't prove "he wasn't interested in doing things Jehovah's way". Maybe he was right and the maybe the WTS wasn't interested in Jehovah's way.
None of us who appreciate what Ray did are his "followers". That's BS. He didn't seek followers.
@cooper79jeffr I am not mounting an assault on ray franz. I am defending Jehovah's witnesses tho..and ray mounted an assault of inuendo against eh governing body. There are always different sides to every story..for me, I look at the end of the matter..did Ray move forward serving God?..Did he fulfill any of the work that christ said his followers would do? no..but, he has a following..and that following does little by try to bring down faithful JWs. That is a fact..wrong or right?
@cooper79jeffr coop..again, just for emphasis. I look at those who have left the truth..either as apostates, or those who simply wanted to live a life free of Jehovah's laws..and I ask myself..are they doing Jehovah's will? Are they honoring and glorifying Jehovah and his son? I see nothing that would give any evidence of such a thing. But, I see JWs, continuiong in the work..putting in over 1.5 billion hrs a year. I see kingdom halls being built around the world..I see God's name known!
@brofun I disagree. When I left I determined that I would be faithful to God and do the right thing. The elders told me that my children would have "nothing" and be "nothing". I could only look at the teenagers in the congregation I was in and I thought "This is something I don't want for my children" as they were immoral and involved in drugs and getting married at very unusually young ages, and ending unsuccessfully. So I determined in my heart that this would not happen.
@SueHagen1 Interesting..I've been in the truth for over thirty years..and when I first came in..there were about 40 kids in the congregation..and now, those kids have around 45 kids in the congregation...most of these teens turned out very well..some left..some got into drugs..some married young..and some are divorced. Does this mean they were approved in their actions?..not at all. Those who married and divorced simply chose to ignore good counsel..those who did drugs suffered...
@SueHagen1 most of the kids are faithful and many of those who left (there were a few) came back. Some did not.
That is to be expected I suppose. You make it sound like your congregation was full of wickedness..something I have not seen in any congregation..and I've been to them from new york to california..and many places in between. If you raise your kids without Jah..that is your choice. Do you think some of the Isrealites left of being part of Isreal because of the wickedness of a few?
Sure, when wickedness or stupidity shows it's ugly head in a coingregation, it is certainly a test of faith for all involved or close to it. But, the same things happened in the first century. Did that mean the first century organization was not backed by Jehovah? Not at all. When Jesus addressed the seven congregations, some were chastised..some were praised..one even was threatened to be vomited out of Christ's mouth! What does that tell us?..that we are not to look for perfection.
It doesn't exist on this earth..but, what we ARE to look for is what christ said would identify his people..they would be doing God's will..they would be one flock with one shepherd..they would promote the good news of the kingdom..they would have love for one another, etc. Nothing said of leaving the flock because of problems that may come up. Those problems ARE a test of our loyalty to God. The organization is simply that..an organization designed to accomplish God's will.
@SueHagen1 True, SOME in the congregation do get involved in immoral and bad behavior. Most are dealt with either thru private reproof, public reproof or disfellowshipping. Being outside of Jehovah's congregation will make you or your children safer. Would you have rejected Isreal is you were born and isrealite because of isreal's bad behavior? Would you have said that they were not God's people? Jehovah dealt with his people..he also dealt with those who chose to ignore him.
@SueHagen1 Your children may, or may not do what is right..sometimes parents do all they can..but ultimately, it is your children's choice. I know some faithful men and women who's children left the truth..I know many who's children remained faithful. We all will stand before Jehovah. But, the question I have for you is this..do you believe JWs are teaching the truth about God and are they doing the preaching work that Jesus fortold would be one of the signs of the last days/
As for appreciating what ray DID? What did he do? He didn't expose anything..he made innuendos about the governing body..that is all. Those men who take the lead simply are focused on one thing..doing the work of preaching and teaching and making known God's kingdom..and helping the congregations around the world to keep on track. Are they perfect?..nope! They are men! Just as the apostles were men..they had problems..and the first century congs had problems..and we as JWs have problems.
@brofun - I'll just say one more thing: Ray did NOT use innuendo. If you read even a chapter or two of either of his books you would know this. But you don't care to examine both sides, but just to impugn Ray.
Ray carefully documented everything he wrote and left it up to the reader to decide if what happened in the WT Society matched either the BIble or their own claims to be Christian.
The WT Society's very sharp lawyers would have sued Ray for libel if he had stated any untruths about them.
but, here is what the bible says would identify Christ's true followers..they would have love among themselves..denoting an organized and cohesive group..they would do God's will..they would preach, teach and make disciples of people of all nations..they would make God's name known..just as Christ said he would. Ray made money off his 'expose'...people who hate witnesses would buy the book..and love it! That made ray enough money to live on. Well, he lived..and now it's in Christ's hands.
@brofun Even that statement is just not true, because Jesus was talking about his followers, not a manmade organization. Come on folks, he was not talking to YOU he was talking about the people who were not loving kind people who hated each other over their in Jerusalem....get the picture.???!!
@eddyrazo11 Jehovah's witnesses recognize that Christ is the only way to God..there is no agrugment there. the question is..who, as a group, are teaching what it TRUTH about christ? many say he is a trinity..many say he is God...the bible says he is God's son. So, THAT is the point. JWs are doing the work christ commanded..they work hard to find the truth in what the bible teaches. So..Jesus is the way, the truth and the light..but, you cannot have truth when you have conflicting doctrine.
@brofun - It is a matter of opinion and not fact as to who is following Christ. It's a sectarian dogfight, and there are loyalists of many religions including yours.
As you say, "you cannot have truth when you have conflicting doctrine". What's funny is you don't seem to realize that Watchtower doctrine conflicts with itself. They change their "light" (or doctrine) more often than any other religion going right now. Example: They've changed their generation doctrine 4x in the past 3 decades.
@cooper79jeffr It might be a matter of opinon to humans..but it certainly is not to God or Christ. True, most people who belong to a religion believe their religion is correct. That is only natural. However, are they really honest when they read the sriptures that clearly say one thing..yet contradicts what they believe? if the scriptures contradict what they believe, then are they following Christ? Our knowledge IS an ongoing process. AS it grows, we make the needed changes.
As for the generation?..you call it a doctrine..and I suppose it is..however, I view it more as an understanding. AND, the word generation and the way it is used IS different in different parts of the bible..the question is..are we humble enough to make the changes?..or will we reject Jehovah and his faithful and discreet slave because the understanding we had is not what Jehovah meant? The bible says ":let God be found true, tho every man a liar' It takes humility to change our thinking.
@brofun - It would take true humility to admit that none of what you presently have is the actual truth. When did WT encourage any JW to look at them, & the "truths" they print, as something that will change? When WT boldly stated "Millions Now Living Will Never Die", how many were to believe that was literal truth, & that truth can ever change? The WT has had millions clinging on to false hopes for some time now, & not having the ability to see that it's a prison for your mind, means it is.
@SueHagen1 You are absolutley wrong. Jesus DID have followers. He prayed about his followers. Read matt 9:9,
matt 19:21, matt 8:19-22, matt 10:38, matt 16:24, john 10:4, john 10:7, john 12:26. 1pet 2:21. what we are set free from is the false teachings of hellfire, trinity, immortal soul, the condition of the dead, and ultimatley, if we remain faithful, we will be free of sin. Jesus commanded his followers do the will of his father. He commanded his followers to preach and teach.
@brofun - You absolutely misunderstood or twisted what Sue Hagen said. She never said Jesus didn't have followers. She said Ray Franz didn't have followers, which confirmed what I had said in response to your asinine claim that Ray had "followers" as if he was leading some sort of cult or movement. Ray set people free from mental enslavement to the Watchtower by revealing inside facts about its history and operation, making it abundantly clear that they're run on the whims of the leadership.
@cooper79jeffr I don';t think I twisted anything..she was commenting on another persons's comment..and I replied to both. It sounded to me like they were saying that we weren't to follow christ..if I was wrong, well, no harm done! And Ray DID have followers..people who took up his way of thinking. simple as that.
i did not know that you knew his last name. anyway i just got off the phone with raymond's wife cynthia not long ago. she is working hard to get ray's memorial started. i agree with you on what you said about disassociation. even peter told me that when he left,there was no ruling on disassociation at that time. Anyway,anytime you'd like to message me, feel free. Take care.
@Paulgr - Yes Peter is well known among ex-JW's on the Internet. The WT Society sent Ray & Cynthia out to the "field" with only $10K after all those years of service. This is a tough position for someone in their 50's and few marketable job skills. Peter cared enough to help Ray get stabilized so he & Cynthia could live out their years with a little stability and dignity.
I appreciate the tribute to Raymond. Raymiond and my uncle Peter,who was an elder for years,were close friends. If it had not been for my uncle,raymond would have had no one to turn to. All he had was his wife,especially because his uncle Fred Franz wanted nothing to do with him. I talk to his wife at times,and she said around the 2nd ,they were going to put together a memorial for Raymond. I knew Raymond personally,and i can tell you that he was a great man.
@Paulgr - Thanks for posting, and I'm glad your uncle Peter Gregerson was a loyal friend to Ray & Cynthia. The way I see it, the Watchtower created disfellowshipping rules to trap Ray because Peter was his employer and landlord. I remember in the 1970's that the WT didn't enforce shunning against disassociated persons. The Watchtower has created this false mythology to paint Ray as a bad guy and absolute rebel. That notion can be easily dispelled by simply reading his book.
Ray Franz was one of many, perhaps one of the most important, who exposed the personal and spiritual corruption of the Watchtower leaders. We can see a parallel between the WT, God's Prophet (according to themselves), and Harold Camping and his disciples who are likewise blinded by their own pride and excuse every false teaching, false prophecy, and destruction of the personal lvies ofthose who have left it.
When I dedicated my life I did so to the Creator Jehovah, not to some organization. The baptism talk also emphasized this distinction. It was through later experience that I found out this was not true. I'm out now though not officially. Not being allowed to question or employ independent thought is just wrong and it certainly was not covered in my haste to get baptized.
Raymond Franz's book shows that there are both humble and arrogant men on the JW's Governing Body, and that the arrogant rule-makers have won the struggle between the two sides.
Pharisees were first-century Jewish religious leaders who opposed Christ and made life hard for common Jews with their long lists of manmade rules.
JW leaders also impose a long list of manmade rules on JW's. To see a small sample of these rules, search for the video "Jehovah's Witnesses Faithful in What is Least".
In terms of "beating fellow slaves" - this is a phrase the Watchtower uses to invoke a sympathy and/or persecution complex amongst its followers. I don't think publicly disputing the accuracy of their claims or pointing out what a high-control group they are is "beating" -- it's just a discussion, people. The WT just doesn't like that such discussion sometimes steers people away from their organization. But in today's information age there's little or nothing they can do about it.
@cooper79jeffr It is a form of slander. The WT is not a controlling org. It DOES keep close watch on the congregation to keep them clean as is their responsibiliity. They do encourage all to have a full share in the preaching and teaching work..which is also their responsibility. By accusing them of being controlling, it puts a false light on them..which in turn is putting a false light upon Christ..for christ said "to the extent you do it to the least of these, my brothers, you do to me.
@brofun - I don't "accuse" the Watchtower of being controlling. It's my assessment after decades in the organization and seeing what they print and how they operate. Even the Pharisees claimed to represent God and controlled people with rules and kept the temple "clean". To criticize them wasn't really "slander".
When you use the word "slander", you're implying that I'm talking against God himself. To you apparently the organization is on the same level as God.
@cooper79jeffr comparying the WT to the pharisees is simply ludicrous. There is no comparison. As for viewing the organization as god himself?..that is wrong, BUT, I do believe Jesus words where he says 'to the extent you do it to the least of these who are my brothers, you do it to me'. So, if you want to denegrate these men who humbly take the lead in the work that Christ commanded, and oversee the congregations in a biblical way, that is your right..but, you do it to christ also.
There is no term "Governing Body" in the New Testament. Look all you want. Governing Body is a corporate term, and aptly applies to leaders of a business corporation such as the Watchtower (publishing & real estate moguls).
The Watchtower teaches that the elders in Jerusalem were a governing body with centralized authority. And yet Paul overruled them at times, especially in regards to Judaizing. This shows they really didn't have central authority.
@cooper79jeffr Never said the term 'governing body' was in the bible. But, the meaning is easily understood. When problems of belief and conduct came up, they were sent to the group of men who were in jerusalem, made up of elders and apostles. These would pray and discuss the issues, make a decision, and send out the decision by way of letter thru overseers. This group of men can be termed as a governing body..since they govern, or guide, the congregations.
Ray wasn't "beating his brothers". Vice-versa - he was smeared by the Watchtower hierarchy - including his own uncle. That a JW would come here and post the opposite of truth shows how well the Watchtower smear program against Ray Franz worked.
Ray documented the "behind the scenes" activity of the WT Governing Body and documented how they said one thing and practiced another. The WT has some of the best lawyers in the business and they couldn't find anything untrue in what he wrote.
The Watchtower organization / Jehovah's Witnesses is a haven for pedophiles due to their "two eyewitness" rule which says that one witness cannot bring an accusation. Pedophiles do not bring or allow eyewitnesses to their perversion. Hence there is no "stringent" policy regarding pedophiles in the Jehovah's Witness organiztion -- actually quite the opposite.
What a great honest man with a lot of courage! He shows the" big fat chiefs " from WT, what the bible truely says!!! One of the " true" witnesses! He don`t know ,that he help me to brake out of the mental prison of Brooklyn! R.I.P. Ray Franz
@OriginalJoseyWales I teached the WT-people what the "bible" says!The WT changed the words and facts from president to president! I read the WT from 1930 to 2010.The time for armegeddon was 1896,1914,1931,1975..........! What says the bible:nobody knows when the end comes! NOBODY!
It took a lot of courage and energy for Raymond to sit down and put to pen and paper the story of his experience with the Watchtower; to tell the truth of what life is really like at Watchtower Headquarters; what really goes on behind closed doors.
As a lover of truth, he felt compelled to write his books so that any JW could have their questions answered, and so that they could decide for themselves what to think and what to believe. He was a humble and loving beacon of truth for THOUSANDS...
@OriginalJoseyWales What is your point, exactly? Biblical knowledge? You don't need the Watchtower for that. And Watchtower "understanding" has changed and changed again many times over the decades, so I wouldn't count "changing knowledge" as any real knowledge at all.
Ray was a learned Biblical man...which is a HUGE reason the Watchtower got rid of him & so many others; they studied the Bible secretly & were caught & disfellowshipped. So much for "Christian Love."
@1955annemarie The knowledge he had of the bible came from him being a witness - that was my point. Witnesses are encouraged to study the bible personally so the image you paint of him being 'caught' studying the bible and being disfellowshipped for studying the bible is just absurd. Rather it seems he wanted to exert an influence over the organisation and its direction which others were not prepared to accept.
@OriginalJoseyWales You are, of course, defending "The Mother," or the organization. Yes, I do get your point, which is one the WT has often expressed in relation to anyone thinking that they could "go somewhere else"; saying, "Whom did you learn THE TRUTH from?"
I am not "painting" any picture. What happened to Ray happened to a lot of other faithful ones at Bethel. Your "understanding" of the entire issue is straight "Standard Watchtower Rhetoric." Ray never tried to "influence" anyone
@1955annemarie I read about this matter on wikipedia not from the society. I am not taking a defensive position at all. I was just making the point that the organisation he claimed he was now trying to teach the bible to was the one that taught him the bible. The bottom line for me - whatever the details - was that he had a difference of theological viewpoint with the organisation which led to the rift.
@OriginalJoseyWales Your source surprises me as it sounded straight from the Law Department of the Watchtower. You may know that Time Magazine did a story on the incident, & one can be sure that a proper Watchtower Spokesman gave all the right answers to any questions asked...they always make the Organization look good. Your final point is exactly correct; he did try to share WHEN ASKED what he had learned from the Bible. What they did to him was disgusting. They threw him & his wife out.
@OriginalJoseyWales - My bottom line is different, after having read Franz's two books. He documented inconsistencies between what they taught and what they practiced. There were even inconsistencies in how they applied their own doctrines to members in different parts of the world. Ray carefully documented the Malawi / Mexico inconsistency of the 1970's.
Also the method of how they changed doctrines (more than the doctrines per se) was of great concern to Ray.
@cooper79jeffr and so ? I don't mean to discard your informed viewpoint but all organisations have inconsistencies in them right? From the family to the organisation of a fortune 500 company. Why should the existence of inconsistencies in themselves cause anyonee to lose their religous beliefs?
@OriginalJoseyWales - The Watchtower organization claims to be "the truth" that you cannot question. They tell people to put their trust in them. However they have proven to be utterly imperfect and human, and not worthy of the absolute loyalty they demand from their rank-and-file members.
Inconsistecies from such a religion would only cause THINKING people to lose their religious beliefs. However some people are born to be followers. Such inconsistencies will never bother them.
@cooper79jeffr If one expects perfection from humans then one is likely to be disillusioned with all the institutions in society. There is no suggestion that because someone speaks the truth that they will act or understand perfectly all the times..
@OriginalJoseyWales - It's not just "imperfection" we're discussing here. In Matt. 23:3 Jesus said to "practice and obey whatever the Pharisees tell you to do. But do not do what they do for they do not practice what they preach."
So the Pharisees "spoke the truth". Does this mean they were worthy of the trust and loyalty of the regular Jewish people?
They treated followers with contempt (calling them amha-arets) and kicked out any who didn't adhere to their manmade rules.
@cooper79jeffr Well Franz was hardly an amharet; he was a member of the governing body - a high position. He fell out with the organisation over doctrinal differences and he was removed to curtail his influence - rightly or wrongly. I think its sad that Franz got disillusioned after so many years of devotion but at the same time I cannot fault an organisation just for removing someone from post. Schools exclude pupils and companies fire staff.
@OriginalJoseyWales Your point is well made, however, what if a school expelled a student for finding out some ugly truth about the heads of the school, & smearing his good name, just to shut him up? And what if a company fired an employee for trying to bring to light covered up wrongs of that company, even threatening him? Would this make the one fired or expelled the one in the wrong??
Have you ever seen the movie with Russel Crow, who played the whistle blower for the tobacco industry??
Ray is a pity he did not read the story of life within the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. The Creator of all things, which is much larger than quelaquer man or organization can somehow we humans so limited, grant peace you sought earnestly seek throughout his career. Thanks Ray....
Imovendas 3 days ago
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I have been silent for nearly 50 years until I stumbled on to one of these jehovah's witness videos. I realized that there are so many who have suffered at the hands of this fanatical brainwashing cult. Now I will add my voice to the growing numbers of those who came to realize that this is a dangerous, fanatical cult that DEMANDS complete obedience without question, the wtbt society's teachings. islam believes in honor killings, jw's is worse, the "Shunning bullet" makes you wish U were dead
jonathonlb 2 weeks ago
What a truly honest man!Thank you, Ray!Rest in Peace!
Antifatz 2 weeks ago
Hello, i have just seen a video that said when Ray left the Watchtower he switched to believing the Trinity, is this correct? (search ray franz trinity) Thanks
djelc 1 month ago
@Mis4el1973 Love how you put your head in the sand. How about reading only reading older WTBTS books you'll be amazed what you'll uncover regarding the WTBTS past.
TheBrightpower 1 month ago
@TheBrightpower Love how ur prejudiced mind blocks ur way of thinking. FYI: I've read it ALL. I resent ur prejudices about what Ive read and not. I suggest u dont judge me so fast. How about focus on what the bible really teaches rather than pointing out errors of imperfect humans to make us look bad? I suppose ur flawless and perfect? I mean.... u must be since u feel that u have the right to judge.
Mis4el1973 1 week ago
If Satan could lure angels to follow him and fool two perfect humans (of which atleast Adam had lived for several 100 yrs b4 shunned from Eden) why does apostates celebrate an imperfect human? As if R.F would be the ultimate proof that Jehovah's Witnesses is a false religion? Makes no sense whatsoever. Dont put ur faith to a human. Put ur faith to Jehovah God!
Micah 4:5
Mis4el1973 1 month ago
@Mis4el1973 It's not Raymond Franz that people are putting their trust in, but the truths that he drew their attention to that enabled them to see the WT organization in the realistic light that people like yourself are yet to see it in. I encourage you to read his books. And yes, put your faith in Jehovah God not in some organization, comprised of imperfect men, that claims to be His sole channel of communication and to be the only ones who represent him correctly.
TheAlan39 1 month ago in playlist Favorite videos
@TheAlan39 When the true christians in the first century was doing Gods work. Were there any other christian communities? No. Did they believe that others could have Jehovahs blessing outside their community? No. Does the bible mention more than 1 truth? No. So u see.. there can only be one belief that God approves of. Not several beliefs with different doctrines. God works only through one channel. Not through many. U might want to study the bible about this. Good bye.
Mis4el1973 1 month ago
@Mis4el1973 The true church was birthed 2000 yrs ago and has become divided because of people thinking they were the only ones who had the pure unadulterated truth and subsequently separating themselves from the rest of us. Charles Taze Russell was a man such as this who exemplified the very spirit that's reponsible for all the divisions we now see. But JW's deceive themselves into believing that because they are united among themselves (which btw, every group is) that somehow they're (cont)
TheAlan39 1 month ago
@Mis4el1973 (cont2) above (in some high and lofty place) all the silly little scisms and divisions that christian church has become know for when in actual fact they just added one more little denomination when Russell and his adherants separated themselves.
God knows those that are His, those that are loyal to Him and set out to live by His truth to the best of their abililty and one day they will be one flock under one shepherd in a visible way.
TheAlan39 1 month ago
@Mis4el1973 And even if there were one church that God had selected to represent Himself. Why would it be the WT society? They've made a host of false predictions and have changed there mind about certain truths on too many occasions to mention. If you believed something now that you believed 40 yrs ago you'd be disfellowshipped for it. Read Rays books and let the truth in them pop the false reality bubble you're living in.
TheAlan39 1 month ago
@TheAlan39 The only ones actually following Christs commands is Jehovah's Witnesses. The only ones actually EDUCATING people about Jehovahs way and his will. You cannot base a faith 90% on singing and charismatic TV-preachers. Such a faith is very shallow. 1 John 4:1 FYI WT has never ever made a public announcement about the "false predictions" that yer mentioning. I'm sorry I'm not reading any apostate books. I dont need to read his garbage. I can make my own conclusions tyvm. Good bye
Mis4el1973 1 month ago
@Mis4el1973 "Does the Bible mention more than one truth? No."
The fact is bro the overwhelming majority of christians churches believe all the core truths that are essential to salvation and christian living. As someone once said, 'The church has shown the uncanny ability to agree on 98% of things but be divided over the 2% they don't agree on. And Jw's aren't separate from this division, they're are part of it.
There is only one truth and it has always been God intention to use His (cont)
TheAlan39 1 month ago
@TheAlan39 Yeah.... whatever u wrote wont fall in good soil here, ty. I've studied the bible in such an immense way that whatever negative stuff u have to say about Jehovahs witnesses and whatnot doesnt fly. There is only one truth. And that is that who ever identify themselves with Gods name and use it in their prayers, talk to people about Gods name and his kingdom is those who actually are Gods friends. Hiding Gods name, neglecting to use it doesnt honor God Jehovah.
Mis4el1973 1 month ago
@Mis4el1973 Never once in the the NT was using the name Jehovah part of the criteria to test if one was a true believer or not.(see 1st John) In fact, the name Jehovah was not found in any of the 5000 existent ancient manuscripts of the NT, from which our modern day versions of the Bible have been translated. There is nothing found that supports the WT society inserting the name Jehovah 237 times in the NT section of their New World translation. The great importance the WT places upon (cont)
TheAlan39 1 month ago
@TheAlan39 ...and for the rest of the dogmatic comments. YOu really need to study the Bible a bit more before u make such comments that Gods name was never mentioned in NT. Jesus, the apostles and the rest of the first century christians frequently quoted and studied the hebrew scriptures which was filled with Gods word and they quoted a lot from the hebrew scriptures, which was written down and today known as NT, or greek scriptures. Would be funny if they didnt use Gods name. Think again...
Mis4el1973 1 month ago
@Mis4el1973 The fact is bro, not one of the ancients Manuscripts found of the NT contains the name Jehovah in the way that your New World Translation contains it. You need to base your beliefs on the hard facts not on how you would like to imagine things were.
Your obviously very attached to this organization and believe everything it tells you and distrust anyone from outside of it and reject what they are saying even of they bring to your attention indisputable historical facts.
TheAlan39 1 month ago
@Mis4el1973 Your friendship with the organization is stopping you being a friend of truth. Is causing you to willfully turn away from it. You say you can do your own research about other churches, but then say, " I'm sorry, I'm not reading any apostate books, I don't need to read that garbage". So your research basically amounts to hearing the warped version of reality the WT feeds you on a weekly basis. Open your eyes bro, they're are the ones practicing propaganda not me.
TheAlan39 1 month ago
@Mis4el1973 (cont2) making the name of Jehovah known or using it in their prayers is in no way reflected in the ancient NT manuscripts. Even with the unjustifiable insertion of Jehovah 237 times it still not that much when you consider that the name Jesus appears 912 times and God 1275 times. So it would be unfair to to see using the name Jehovah in prayers and preaching etc as a way of identifying who God's true people are.
Ray Franz wrote a brilliant chapter on this subject in his 2nd (cont)
TheAlan39 1 month ago
@Mis4el1973 (cont3) book "In search of christian freedom" called "A people for His name" between pages 489-523 in the copy I have. He will do a lot better job of explaining it to you than I have or will. I don't believe you could read it reflectively and come away with the same view you currently have.
TheAlan39 1 month ago
@TheAlan39 Even if churches say that they "believe", their actions shows what lies in their hearts. Agreeing on stuff is not hard. But to actually live up to what u agree upon as a christian is harder. Churches support wars, they fraternise with the world and the political system, Jesus ran away when they wanted to make him a King, a political leader. That pretty much removes 99% of all churches concerning bibli criteria, according to Gods principles. Well.. that is all I had to say.
Mis4el1973 1 month ago
@Mis4el1973 I want to point out to that nowhere in the Bible does it say, that fighting in a war, supporting a war or being part of an army is a mark of a non believer. Jesus in his dealings with the Roman centurian or Peter in his dealings with Cornelius (also a centurian) never once referred to their occupations let alone asked them to get out of it. Also Paul dealt with men in politics and although tried to convert them to christianity, never once spoke negatively of their occupation.
TheAlan39 1 month ago
@Mis4el197 I agree that neither Jesus nor the Apostles tried to get into politics or positions of rulership or started an army in order to further their cause. But they never said it was a sin to be in any of those positions or that it indicated you weren't a true child of God. The criteria you're using to determine whether someone is a true child of God or not is not the criteria we were given in the NT to make this determination. And the criteria we WERE given doesn't exclude 99% of christians
TheAlan39 1 month ago
@TheAlan39 Never said it was a sin to be in that position? Do you think its wise to vote for a human government when Jehovah clearly says in Dan 2:44 that he's going to destroy the kingdoms of this world order? Furthermore Jesus said "love thy enemy" = dont kill people in war, dont support the government with their corrupt politicians, they cannot speak for you as a christian, NEVER. They look to whats best for themselves before they look to whats best in Gods eyes.
Mis4el1973 1 month ago
@Mis4el1973 Bro, I never said, I put my trust in politicians or that I look to them to peak on my behalf as a christian. But the fact is somebody has to be in power and it's no sin (there's no scriptural basis for any such assertion) for me to put my vote in for who I think would be best for the country. Even if it's a matter of the better of two evils at least my vote can help put the better man in and ensure a better quality of life for all the people affected.
TheAlan39 1 month ago
@Mis4el1973 So when I vote for a politicain, I'm not, by doing so, declaring my total and unwavering support for everything he thinks says and does, but am simply saying, of the available candidates, he is the best person for the job. That does not in any way take away from my belief that Christ would be the ultimate ruler or implies that I'm handing my allegiance over to a man and not Christ. Have a think about it.
TheAlan39 1 month ago
@Mis4el1973 When it comes to fighting in a war, one man may decide the loving thing to do is to put his life on the line to fight against the invading power in order to spare his fellow countrymen (women and children) from what would be a cruel, oppressive and exploitative regime. Another may decide it would be unloving to take up arms against the invaders and let them come in and take over.
Where the scriptures are not clear on such an issue, let every man be guided by his own conscience.
TheAlan39 1 month ago
@Mis4el19 If you were out walking your dog one day and I was there with you and then suddenly you were physically attacked unjustly by some bullying thug, would the most loving thing be for me to enter into the fight on your behalf or just stand back and let you get beaten up?
In a perfect world you wouldn't need an army or a police force that had to at times resort to voilence. But the fact is we live in a fallen world and moreover you too as a Jw are protected by their presence in our world.
TheAlan39 1 month ago
@TheAlan39 If you want "friendship with the world" then youre constituting yourself as an enemy of God. The worldly govts are a part of this world order. Satan is the ruler of this world order as "the god of this system of things" and is "misleading the entire inhabited earth" so how can u put ur trust to politicians who are run by Satan? So in conclusion: Yes, it is wrong in God Jehovahs eyes to be in a political position. (James 4:4; Rev 12:9; 2 Cor 4:4)
Mis4el1973 1 month ago
@Mis4el1973 Also, your negative view of the christian church, seeing them as not living up to what they agree is the truth. Although, to be fair, has some merit, is, I believe, a result of being heavily indoctinated by an organization that is determined to get you to see them as lukewarm and compromising, by constantly drawing your attention to the negative things they do and failing to bring to your attention the positive and honorable things they do and have done. There has been many (cont)
TheAlan39 1 month ago
@Mis4el1973 (cont2) martyrs and people devoted to spreading the truth, (often at a great cost to themselves) in the past 120 yrs since the WT has been in existence, that you would need a few lifetimes to read about in full. What you've been fed about other believers is largely a myth.
Remember the WT's agenda is to portray themselves as the only ones faithful to Jehovah and the rest of the church as having prostituted themselves to the world. Time for you to check their claims out for yourself.
TheAlan39 1 month ago
@TheAlan39 Dude, I really honestly don't care about your propaganda. I have eyes, I can see for myself. I have ears I can listen and make my own conclusions. I can study and make researches about other churches. My faith is firmly rooted with Jehovahs people, and made solid by knowledge through years and years of meticulous regular Bible studies every day, every week. Its fine. Save your breath.
Mis4el1973 1 month ago
@Mis4el1973 regarding your comments Your rude, arrogant, and misleading, as is your leaders. I have one thing you need to understand. Per your teachings you are out of your integrity with your God. Hypocrite!
You have heard and told yourself this crap for so long you don't notice when you are a liar, and a fraud.
What would Jesus call you "Satan"
19868441 1 week ago
@19868441 I have one thing you need to understand. I am very much capable of making my own researches about what I have been taught, I make my own studies and every time I see that it is correct to the letter, of what I'm being taught. Jesus wouldnt call med Satan... and you call me rude? Oh, dear... true apostate comment. Hypocrite? Thats only your opinion. Bye now, have a nice life.
Mis4el1973 1 week ago
@Mis4el1(cont2) church that He birthed into existence 2000 yrs ago not 120 yrs ago to bring it forth. And through all the mess of church history (which I reiterate Jw's have been a part of not separate from) His truth has been advancing. So if you want to believe God's only working through you guys even though there is not a single mention of you in scripture nor any supernatural signs pointing to you being entrusted with this great responsibility then go for it. But I believe Your missing out.
TheAlan39 1 month ago
@TheAlan39 The heathen times would start after the last apostle had died @ end of 1st cent when christians were infected by worldly thoughts and human traditions. Paul talked about that. (Acts 20:29,30) The prophecies is clear on what would happen, and when J.C finally would reign as king in the heavens @ the end of times when a preaching campaign would take place lead by J.C. Read carefully what Matt 24:14 and 28:19, 20 teaches. Who is preaching about Gods kingdom? (Isa 52:7; Rom 10:13-15)
Mis4el1973 1 month ago
What I don´t understand is why isn´t his wife printing MORE Crisis books? They are damn hard to get a hold of. Why aren´t they available at book stores? You have probably a million people who want to read it!
Mattmannish 1 month ago 3
Thanks so much Ray! So many people WILL be freed due to your works!
Theadmirablebuterfli 2 months ago in playlist Favorite videos 3
8 dislikes.......Now JW's ,Have a little respect for the dead......
You 8 should be ashamed of yourselves.But that's not going to happen because you don't have a conscience.
xsamitt 2 months ago
Ray and Cynthia are perhaps the bravest people I know...
Thank you for helping set me and my wife free from the WTS with your words of truth, love and humility. Hope to see you when we are ALL happy and living in Peace
LOKJazz 2 months ago
To say that his book has blown my mind is a huge understatement. It's one of those books you read that really turns your life around.
kassad84 2 months ago
Thanks Ray Thanks a lot.You saved my life.
ivanof77 2 months ago
Raymond Franz ... that God in His infinite wisdom has a wonderful place for you my friend and brother. That Jesus Christ bless you. Rest in peace my friend. I did not know, but I admire his courage to put it right as the main thing to do.
Imovendas 3 months ago 3
Thank you Ray. Rest in peace.
norbertobreda 3 months ago in playlist More videos from WTComments 2
The amount of ignorant hatred about Ray that people spew on his YouTube tribute page is astonishing.
Ray uncovered the practices and methods of the Watchtower leadership. He revealed the humanness of the "man behind the curtain" (like when the Wizard of Oz was exposed). He punctured the aura, and the Watchtower leadership hated him for it. They could not show a single instance of inaccuracy or libel in Ray's books, otherwise they would have sued him for it.
cooper79jeffr 3 months ago 13
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@cooper79jeffr
Hello, i have just seen a video that said when Ray left the Watchtower he switched to believing the Trinity, is this correct? (search ray franz trinity) Thanks
djelc 1 month ago
It's truly sad that Ray attained the status of being "Christ's brother" only to fall into the same trap of Judas Iscariot. A textbook case.
MrBobbNZ 4 months ago
apostate.
something2009able 4 months ago
R.I.P. Ray Franz! We will never forget you! Thank you!
Antifatz 4 months ago 5
"THUS ARE THE PATWAYS OF ALL THOSE FORGETTING GOD, AND THE VERY HOPE OF AN APOSTATE WILL PERISH." JOB 8:13
Cesnna172 5 months ago
@Cesnna172 I recommend you read Rays two books carefully thoughtfully and prayfully considering all the hard facts about the WTO's history Ray presents in His books. I don't believe you'll came away with the same grand view of the organization you have now. You'll realize that the organization you trust so dearly has misled you somewhat regarding their true history. Not to mention misleading you about the character and conduct of other christian churches. What would stop you reading them?
TheAlan39 5 months ago 9
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Thank God!!! He is no longer with us. Everybody like this better???
Cesnna172 5 months ago
@Cesnna172 What a pathetic, mean,arrogant comment! Arrogant, infallible and power aspiring to how the WTO!!!
DocMegabrain 5 months ago 8
@DocMegabrain "Power aspiring"mmm...I like that. THX
Cesnna172 5 months ago
He was wicked men. Read Psalm 139:19-22
Cesnna172 5 months ago
@Cesnna172Oh no,you are blind( like me before i read his book) He don`t hate Jehova!But the WT-Org is a human Orgaisation that fails! They do HUMAN THINGS! He was a truly honest man( In so many countries he preaches and works in the headquarter-he saw things that we don`t saw)!You have been forbidden to read his book!And who has forbidden you to read it?The WT-Org! So you will not read their "human
" false doctrines and opinions that are not found in the bible!Because they are human doctrines!
DocMegabrain 5 months ago 2
@DocMegabrain Of course they do HUMAN THING!!! They are humans. We are human, dont we? Jesus said, "If you are not with me, you are against me".He tries to input his deas but the goverment body dont follow ideas and said no way Jose. This is not a platform for your ideas. We follow Jesuschrist. So what did he do???? Write a book of his "memoirs", what the he see and feel. Megabrain READ THE BIBLE DAILY. Instead following men follow the footstep of Jesuschrist. Did you read it today?
Cesnna172 5 months ago
@Cesnna172 No, the first place by the WTG are "human opinions and doctrines"-NOT the bible!The bible has the2nd place! And I saw that so many years! Don`t tell me what "my" own eyes see and my ears hear! Yes, I read the bible, BUT NOT HUMAN OPINIONS and DOCTRINS-I DON`T READ THE WATCHTOWER! Jesus says: I am the way ,the truth and the life!The WTOrg. says: WE ARE THE WAY TO HIM.....WE ARE THE CHANNEL.......!:O)))WE ...WE....WE...WE........!
DocMegabrain 5 months ago 4
@DocMegabrain Your are a funny person. :))) Dont read the Bible regulary, READ IT DAILY. You dont read humans opinions?? Mmm. Who wrote the Bible?? Angels, God,oh no HUMANS!!!! You are a follower of man, and yes, you follow doctrines... from R. Franz. He wrote what he see and feel.And you are his follower. He was shunning. Of course he hate the WT. Nobody like when someone tell you that you are wrong. But if you are HUMBLE, you analized yourself and thanks. Something that R. Franz refuse to do.
Cesnna172 5 months ago
@Cesnna172 No ,the things in the bible are from god-when you read the WT carefully ,you see that`s not the things fron bible,thats the words and prophecy from WTO! But the JW are blind! Ray saw this things and speak over human opinions !That was crime!
DocMegabrain 5 months ago
@Cesnna172 READ the book " crisis of conscience!" You don`t find bashing or hate against the WTO( Why you say, when you dont know his book???)!but you don`t READ, while the WTO has forbidden!!!:O)Poor,poor people in the Org.!!!
DocMegabrain 5 months ago 3
@DocMegabrain In the heavens an angels rebels and he was called later Satan. In moderns days we haved R. Franz. Oh he tries to put down the organization, now he dead and the organization continue and will continued until the finals days. They are growing!!! Remember that! No humans cant to shut up the only true God organization. So keep that in mind. They will continue knocking on your door until God says that is enought. Now is my turn!!
Cesnna172 5 months ago
@Cesnna172 Ray Franz was truly honest man.40 years he preaches , works and pray to god-BUT HE DONT PRAY TO THE WTO!Thats was his fail!
DocMegabrain 5 months ago 3
@Cesnna172 the WTO don`t follow Jesus-they have OWN opinions, prophecy. They says: WE ARE THE CHANNEL!!!!!!!!!!
DocMegabrain 5 months ago 2
@DocMegabrain Well Megabrain, see you. I will no reply to you no more. The ends is near, just remember, Read the bible daily, not regulary. If you was JW think about it. You have time yet. If never talk with a JW, do it. Listen to them. Dont argue with them. Just listen. They are honest, good people, the only ones who come knocking your door. Other tries, they get tired. Why? Because this works comes from God and not from mens. The WT-Org are merely a corporation that by law they need it.
Cesnna172 5 months ago
@Cesnna172 I was a JW 35 years! You are blind! Jesus says: I AM the way ,the truth and the life
! NOT the great channel ,the great preacher, the great god WTO!!!!!!!! " The end is near...." thats are in the Watchtower 1877, than 1911,than 1931( Cedar Point) than 1975....................................The Prophecy is fail! NOW we have 2011-it`s not GODS PROPHECY-it`s Prophecy FROM WTORG! In the bible are no dates to the end: "Nobody" knows the day-only the father---NOT THE WTORG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DocMegabrain 5 months ago 3
@DocMegabrain Read Hebrew 12:11 and then 10:32. Its true, 1911,1931 and 1975. The same that R. Franz preach and talks. He was disfellow on the 80s. I knew him, personally and in 1975 been part of the GB he said that the ends come 1975. But what happens in 1979 to 1981? What you read is his point of view. Now the Org in a humble and precious way dont mark time. They just talk and preach what the bible says, The end is near, follow Jesuschrist footstep.
Cesnna172 5 months ago
@Cesnna172 Yes, he preaches from his birth to 1980! And THEN???He asked and talk in the headquarter what says "THE BIBLE"-that was his fail!
HE DON`T TALK AND PREACH HUMAN WORDS-HE PREACHES THE THINGS THAT WE ALL FIND IN THE BIBLE.
THAN he was an apostate!He don`t speak the human words from WTO!
Antifatz 5 months ago
@Antifatz And you were there? Are you were in the headquarter meeting that day? Right? NOP, you just read
what he says in the book. Sadly
Cesnna172 5 months ago
@Cesnna172 AND what the WTO says, I read so many years!And that`s exactly what Ray Franz criticized.The human teachings and beliefs.He don`t criticized the words of Jehova-BUT what makes the WTO , namely human thougs!The end is near( I think so...)but "no one knows"when it comes.Not even the angels, jesus or the WTO( read the own calculations which are not fullfilled-and the changes that were maid by the calculations) ! Read the" bible", brother!Thats right!
Antifatz 5 months ago
@Antifatz You are living in the past. The WT never says that the Organization in the earth is perfect. Of course they are humans, same Franz. He was a human that try to put his "humans ideas" in the GB. You have to be humble, even if no ones think your are right. But no, Franz was not humble at all. He tries to corrupted the WTO but he fails miserable. He was disfellowed for the good of the Organization. And what did he do? Write a book and do a tour promoting his feelling. A black star who died
Cesnna172 5 months ago
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@Cesnna172 Look at the prophecy over the end ,and the 144.000! How often is the doctrine was changed?Whenever the old version of the doctrine did not arrived( 1887,1914,1931,1975)!!!HUMAN Prophecy-the bible says : NOBODY knows,not the son, not the angels- only the father!And Jehova never changed his words-only human like the WTO!They have ONLY THE SPIRIT FROM GOD??? ( They says :ALL the Spirit comes to us)!? FAIL!
Antifatz 5 months ago 5
@Cesnna172 Ray NEVER said that he is the god channel! He never said, " YOU MUST DO WHAT WE SAID, BECAUSE WE ONLY HAVE THE SPIRIT FROM JESUS" that`s only the WTO-part! And now: Don`t proof, during the WTO after!
Antifatz 5 months ago 5
@Antifatz Did you follow any organization at all?
Cesnna172 5 months ago
@Antifatz Did you follow any organization at all? Did you was JW before? Are you disfellow member who hate the elders and the WTO because "you dont understand the WTO"and I dont believed in what humans says""? I sins but God understand me? Its that is??? Men you guys are all the same. Be humble my "brother". And if you never was JW, why talking so bad of something that you never tried?
Cesnna172 5 months ago
@Antifatz Did you follow any organization at all? Did you was JW before? Are you disfellow member who hate the elders and the WTO because "you dont understand the WTO"and I dont believed in what humans says""? I sins but God understand me? Its that is??? Men you guys are all the same. Be humble my "brother". And if you never was JW, why talking so bad of something that you never tried?
Cesnna172 5 months ago
@Cesnna172 There's not two doors to the Father through the WTO and then through Jesus. There is one door to the Father and that is simply Jesus.
The gospel is faith in Christ for your salvation, not membership in an earthly organization and faith in Christ for your salvation. The WTO has in their own way clearly added to the gospel.
Rays books help distinguish between man made rules, traditions and requirements and the simple requirements of God. They break it down to what really matters.
TheAlan39 5 months ago 6
@Cesnna172 The WTO has no right to speak in the name of God or Jesus, to make predictions and revise them again.They have no right to judge others and to place itself above god! God says: "My word is true!"- Read the bible carefully! Not only the Awake and Watchtower!"The word of god,nothing should be added!" and "No one is the lord over your faith"
Antifatz 5 months ago 4
@Cesnna172 You weren't in the meeting either bro but choose to believe your organizations version of events rather than Rays. An organization notorious for presenting a glossed over version of their history.
Ray didn't reject the Bible or any of Jesus clear and plain stated claims, but rather some of the WTO's unique interpretations and in particular its claim to be God's only channel of communication to the world today and that one has to accept that to be found in right standing with God.
TheAlan39 5 months ago 3
@DocMegabrain Maybe you was disipline by elders, or just left God house, You have time yet. If you was JW for 35 you know the true of this words, Read the bible daily, not regulary. Pray to Jah, he still listing to you. Dont go away. He is your father, your God and your friend. Nobody like when we need somebody to tell us what to do, but that is just following the path of independence. Dont hate the Org, we are all humns, and humans make mistake, so the WT-ORG.
Cesnna172 5 months ago
@Cesnna172 Look at the prophecy over the end ,and the 144.000! How often is the doctrine was changed?Whenever the old version of the doctrine did not arrived( 1887,1914,1931,1975)!!!HUMAN Prophecy-the bible says : NOBODY knows,not the son, not the angels- only the father!And Jehova never changed his words-only human like the WTO!They have ONLY THE SPIRIT FROM GOD??? ( They says :ALL the Spirit comes to us)!? FAIL!
DocMegabrain 5 months ago 5
@Cesnna172 No,the WTOrg are the Slave( they says, they have the spirit from Jehova)! Did jehova lies? NO! But: where in the bible stands ,Har- magedon comes in few month? i find nothing!!!But the president of WTOrg says that 1931(!) on convention in Cedar Point! Human prophecy or God`s word??? So many different words are comes from WT -bible( 1887-2011)! The different words and opinions was called NEW LIGHT,when it was changed! Did Jehova CHANGED his WORDS???????No!
DocMegabrain 5 months ago 3
@Cesnna172 Who does not change his opinion like the WTO ,is an apostate and will be excluded!Like Ray!
DocMegabrain 5 months ago 6
R.I.P. Raymond Franz. Your legacy lives on in all those who expose the Watchtower for being the charlatans that they are.
cooper79jeffr 7 months ago 24
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Thank GOD this guy is dead!!!!!!
Cesnna172 7 months ago
@Cesnna172 why?
tubealupe 7 months ago
@Cesnna172 new Light?.
tubealupe 7 months ago 3
@Cesnna172 Has tought you something, the WT-Org???You want to be a Christian!? So I know the witnesses-christians outward,but dishonest and blindly following the WT-Org. No matter what the WT-Org orders it is done without brain,without love!The love to Jehova ( not human opinions and doctrines) has RAY FRANZ
! R.I.P.
DocMegabrain 5 months ago 2
Never had his own children but a true father to many.
His memory will not be forgotten.
TheAlan39 8 months ago
Ray Franz's two books clearly outline that legalism and rule-making are major drivers of Watchtower leadership. He carefully documents with copies of actual correspondence to illustrate the point that they are the modern-day Pharisees.
Of course they aren't the only authoritarian religion that uses fear as a stick and false hopes as a carrot.
cooper79jeffr 8 months ago 4
Who else besides the Watchtower associated with the United Nations while condemning them in their own literature? Who else but the Watchtower has a "two-witness rule" that prevents pedophiles from coming to justice? Who else but the Watchtower incorrectly predicted the end of the world's system to come in 1914, 1915, 1919, 1925, 1975 and before the end of the 20th century? Who else but the Watchtower issues confusing rules on medicine like no whole blood but allow certain defined fractions?
cooper79jeffr 8 months ago
Raymond Franz was a good man!
Tycia15 9 months ago
Brofun here continues the written assault against Ray Franz, which echoes what I heard from within the JW organization 25-30 years ago.
Just because he didn't kowtow to the leadership of uncle Freddie (then-leader of the Watchtower Society) doesn't prove "he wasn't interested in doing things Jehovah's way". Maybe he was right and the maybe the WTS wasn't interested in Jehovah's way.
None of us who appreciate what Ray did are his "followers". That's BS. He didn't seek followers.
cooper79jeffr 9 months ago
@cooper79jeffr I am not mounting an assault on ray franz. I am defending Jehovah's witnesses tho..and ray mounted an assault of inuendo against eh governing body. There are always different sides to every story..for me, I look at the end of the matter..did Ray move forward serving God?..Did he fulfill any of the work that christ said his followers would do? no..but, he has a following..and that following does little by try to bring down faithful JWs. That is a fact..wrong or right?
brofun 9 months ago
@cooper79jeffr coop..again, just for emphasis. I look at those who have left the truth..either as apostates, or those who simply wanted to live a life free of Jehovah's laws..and I ask myself..are they doing Jehovah's will? Are they honoring and glorifying Jehovah and his son? I see nothing that would give any evidence of such a thing. But, I see JWs, continuiong in the work..putting in over 1.5 billion hrs a year. I see kingdom halls being built around the world..I see God's name known!
brofun 9 months ago
@brofun I disagree. When I left I determined that I would be faithful to God and do the right thing. The elders told me that my children would have "nothing" and be "nothing". I could only look at the teenagers in the congregation I was in and I thought "This is something I don't want for my children" as they were immoral and involved in drugs and getting married at very unusually young ages, and ending unsuccessfully. So I determined in my heart that this would not happen.
SueHagen1 8 months ago
@SueHagen1 Interesting..I've been in the truth for over thirty years..and when I first came in..there were about 40 kids in the congregation..and now, those kids have around 45 kids in the congregation...most of these teens turned out very well..some left..some got into drugs..some married young..and some are divorced. Does this mean they were approved in their actions?..not at all. Those who married and divorced simply chose to ignore good counsel..those who did drugs suffered...
brofun 8 months ago
@SueHagen1 most of the kids are faithful and many of those who left (there were a few) came back. Some did not.
That is to be expected I suppose. You make it sound like your congregation was full of wickedness..something I have not seen in any congregation..and I've been to them from new york to california..and many places in between. If you raise your kids without Jah..that is your choice. Do you think some of the Isrealites left of being part of Isreal because of the wickedness of a few?
brofun 8 months ago
Sure, when wickedness or stupidity shows it's ugly head in a coingregation, it is certainly a test of faith for all involved or close to it. But, the same things happened in the first century. Did that mean the first century organization was not backed by Jehovah? Not at all. When Jesus addressed the seven congregations, some were chastised..some were praised..one even was threatened to be vomited out of Christ's mouth! What does that tell us?..that we are not to look for perfection.
brofun 8 months ago
It doesn't exist on this earth..but, what we ARE to look for is what christ said would identify his people..they would be doing God's will..they would be one flock with one shepherd..they would promote the good news of the kingdom..they would have love for one another, etc. Nothing said of leaving the flock because of problems that may come up. Those problems ARE a test of our loyalty to God. The organization is simply that..an organization designed to accomplish God's will.
brofun 8 months ago
@SueHagen1 True, SOME in the congregation do get involved in immoral and bad behavior. Most are dealt with either thru private reproof, public reproof or disfellowshipping. Being outside of Jehovah's congregation will make you or your children safer. Would you have rejected Isreal is you were born and isrealite because of isreal's bad behavior? Would you have said that they were not God's people? Jehovah dealt with his people..he also dealt with those who chose to ignore him.
brofun 8 months ago
@SueHagen1 Your children may, or may not do what is right..sometimes parents do all they can..but ultimately, it is your children's choice. I know some faithful men and women who's children left the truth..I know many who's children remained faithful. We all will stand before Jehovah. But, the question I have for you is this..do you believe JWs are teaching the truth about God and are they doing the preaching work that Jesus fortold would be one of the signs of the last days/
brofun 8 months ago
As for appreciating what ray DID? What did he do? He didn't expose anything..he made innuendos about the governing body..that is all. Those men who take the lead simply are focused on one thing..doing the work of preaching and teaching and making known God's kingdom..and helping the congregations around the world to keep on track. Are they perfect?..nope! They are men! Just as the apostles were men..they had problems..and the first century congs had problems..and we as JWs have problems.
brofun 9 months ago
@brofun - I'll just say one more thing: Ray did NOT use innuendo. If you read even a chapter or two of either of his books you would know this. But you don't care to examine both sides, but just to impugn Ray.
Ray carefully documented everything he wrote and left it up to the reader to decide if what happened in the WT Society matched either the BIble or their own claims to be Christian.
The WT Society's very sharp lawyers would have sued Ray for libel if he had stated any untruths about them.
cooper79jeffr 9 months ago
@brofun The problem, as I see it is believing they have a monopoly on the truth. They do not.
SueHagen1 8 months ago
but, here is what the bible says would identify Christ's true followers..they would have love among themselves..denoting an organized and cohesive group..they would do God's will..they would preach, teach and make disciples of people of all nations..they would make God's name known..just as Christ said he would. Ray made money off his 'expose'...people who hate witnesses would buy the book..and love it! That made ray enough money to live on. Well, he lived..and now it's in Christ's hands.
brofun 9 months ago
@brofun Even that statement is just not true, because Jesus was talking about his followers, not a manmade organization. Come on folks, he was not talking to YOU he was talking about the people who were not loving kind people who hated each other over their in Jerusalem....get the picture.???!!
SueHagen1 8 months ago
@SueHagen1 You say they have a 'monoply on truth? who else is doing God's will..who else is teaching the truth about God? I'd like to know!
brofun 8 months ago
@brofun (John 14:6)Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me".
I pray that the lord open your eyes to see that salvation ONLY comes from Christ ,not in allegiance to any organisation lead by mortal men.
eddyrazo11 8 months ago
@eddyrazo11 Jehovah's witnesses recognize that Christ is the only way to God..there is no agrugment there. the question is..who, as a group, are teaching what it TRUTH about christ? many say he is a trinity..many say he is God...the bible says he is God's son. So, THAT is the point. JWs are doing the work christ commanded..they work hard to find the truth in what the bible teaches. So..Jesus is the way, the truth and the light..but, you cannot have truth when you have conflicting doctrine.
brofun 8 months ago
@brofun - It is a matter of opinion and not fact as to who is following Christ. It's a sectarian dogfight, and there are loyalists of many religions including yours.
As you say, "you cannot have truth when you have conflicting doctrine". What's funny is you don't seem to realize that Watchtower doctrine conflicts with itself. They change their "light" (or doctrine) more often than any other religion going right now. Example: They've changed their generation doctrine 4x in the past 3 decades.
cooper79jeffr 8 months ago
@cooper79jeffr It might be a matter of opinon to humans..but it certainly is not to God or Christ. True, most people who belong to a religion believe their religion is correct. That is only natural. However, are they really honest when they read the sriptures that clearly say one thing..yet contradicts what they believe? if the scriptures contradict what they believe, then are they following Christ? Our knowledge IS an ongoing process. AS it grows, we make the needed changes.
brofun 8 months ago
As for the generation?..you call it a doctrine..and I suppose it is..however, I view it more as an understanding. AND, the word generation and the way it is used IS different in different parts of the bible..the question is..are we humble enough to make the changes?..or will we reject Jehovah and his faithful and discreet slave because the understanding we had is not what Jehovah meant? The bible says ":let God be found true, tho every man a liar' It takes humility to change our thinking.
brofun 8 months ago
@brofun - It would take true humility to admit that none of what you presently have is the actual truth. When did WT encourage any JW to look at them, & the "truths" they print, as something that will change? When WT boldly stated "Millions Now Living Will Never Die", how many were to believe that was literal truth, & that truth can ever change? The WT has had millions clinging on to false hopes for some time now, & not having the ability to see that it's a prison for your mind, means it is.
RODikUlus 6 months ago 16
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(John 14:6)Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me".
I pray that the lord open your eyes to see that salvation ONLY comes from Christ ,not in allegiance to any organisation lead by mortal men.
eddyrazo11 1 second ago
eddyrazo11 8 months ago
@cooper79jeffr THAT is such a good point. He never had "followers". He just set us free.
SueHagen1 8 months ago
@SueHagen1 You are absolutley wrong. Jesus DID have followers. He prayed about his followers. Read matt 9:9,
matt 19:21, matt 8:19-22, matt 10:38, matt 16:24, john 10:4, john 10:7, john 12:26. 1pet 2:21. what we are set free from is the false teachings of hellfire, trinity, immortal soul, the condition of the dead, and ultimatley, if we remain faithful, we will be free of sin. Jesus commanded his followers do the will of his father. He commanded his followers to preach and teach.
brofun 8 months ago
@brofun - You absolutely misunderstood or twisted what Sue Hagen said. She never said Jesus didn't have followers. She said Ray Franz didn't have followers, which confirmed what I had said in response to your asinine claim that Ray had "followers" as if he was leading some sort of cult or movement. Ray set people free from mental enslavement to the Watchtower by revealing inside facts about its history and operation, making it abundantly clear that they're run on the whims of the leadership.
cooper79jeffr 8 months ago
@cooper79jeffr I don';t think I twisted anything..she was commenting on another persons's comment..and I replied to both. It sounded to me like they were saying that we weren't to follow christ..if I was wrong, well, no harm done! And Ray DID have followers..people who took up his way of thinking. simple as that.
brofun 8 months ago
@brofun - So if someone were to decide to become a JW based on what you write here, that person would be your follower - right? Simple as that?
cooper79jeffr 8 months ago
i did not know that you knew his last name. anyway i just got off the phone with raymond's wife cynthia not long ago. she is working hard to get ray's memorial started. i agree with you on what you said about disassociation. even peter told me that when he left,there was no ruling on disassociation at that time. Anyway,anytime you'd like to message me, feel free. Take care.
Paulgr 9 months ago
@Paulgr - Yes Peter is well known among ex-JW's on the Internet. The WT Society sent Ray & Cynthia out to the "field" with only $10K after all those years of service. This is a tough position for someone in their 50's and few marketable job skills. Peter cared enough to help Ray get stabilized so he & Cynthia could live out their years with a little stability and dignity.
cooper79jeffr 9 months ago
I appreciate the tribute to Raymond. Raymiond and my uncle Peter,who was an elder for years,were close friends. If it had not been for my uncle,raymond would have had no one to turn to. All he had was his wife,especially because his uncle Fred Franz wanted nothing to do with him. I talk to his wife at times,and she said around the 2nd ,they were going to put together a memorial for Raymond. I knew Raymond personally,and i can tell you that he was a great man.
Paulgr 9 months ago
@Paulgr - Thanks for posting, and I'm glad your uncle Peter Gregerson was a loyal friend to Ray & Cynthia. The way I see it, the Watchtower created disfellowshipping rules to trap Ray because Peter was his employer and landlord. I remember in the 1970's that the WT didn't enforce shunning against disassociated persons. The Watchtower has created this false mythology to paint Ray as a bad guy and absolute rebel. That notion can be easily dispelled by simply reading his book.
cooper79jeffr 9 months ago
Ray Franz was one of many, perhaps one of the most important, who exposed the personal and spiritual corruption of the Watchtower leaders. We can see a parallel between the WT, God's Prophet (according to themselves), and Harold Camping and his disciples who are likewise blinded by their own pride and excuse every false teaching, false prophecy, and destruction of the personal lvies ofthose who have left it.
truth5peaker 9 months ago
@truth5peaker Beautiful prose!
SueHagen1 8 months ago
When I dedicated my life I did so to the Creator Jehovah, not to some organization. The baptism talk also emphasized this distinction. It was through later experience that I found out this was not true. I'm out now though not officially. Not being allowed to question or employ independent thought is just wrong and it certainly was not covered in my haste to get baptized.
dorfus71 9 months ago
@dorfus71 I totally understand your commnet
SueHagen1 8 months ago
Raymond Franz's book shows that there are both humble and arrogant men on the JW's Governing Body, and that the arrogant rule-makers have won the struggle between the two sides.
Pharisees were first-century Jewish religious leaders who opposed Christ and made life hard for common Jews with their long lists of manmade rules.
JW leaders also impose a long list of manmade rules on JW's. To see a small sample of these rules, search for the video "Jehovah's Witnesses Faithful in What is Least".
cooper79jeffr 9 months ago 4
In terms of "beating fellow slaves" - this is a phrase the Watchtower uses to invoke a sympathy and/or persecution complex amongst its followers. I don't think publicly disputing the accuracy of their claims or pointing out what a high-control group they are is "beating" -- it's just a discussion, people. The WT just doesn't like that such discussion sometimes steers people away from their organization. But in today's information age there's little or nothing they can do about it.
cooper79jeffr 9 months ago
@cooper79jeffr It is a form of slander. The WT is not a controlling org. It DOES keep close watch on the congregation to keep them clean as is their responsibiliity. They do encourage all to have a full share in the preaching and teaching work..which is also their responsibility. By accusing them of being controlling, it puts a false light on them..which in turn is putting a false light upon Christ..for christ said "to the extent you do it to the least of these, my brothers, you do to me.
brofun 9 months ago
@brofun - I don't "accuse" the Watchtower of being controlling. It's my assessment after decades in the organization and seeing what they print and how they operate. Even the Pharisees claimed to represent God and controlled people with rules and kept the temple "clean". To criticize them wasn't really "slander".
When you use the word "slander", you're implying that I'm talking against God himself. To you apparently the organization is on the same level as God.
cooper79jeffr 9 months ago
@cooper79jeffr comparying the WT to the pharisees is simply ludicrous. There is no comparison. As for viewing the organization as god himself?..that is wrong, BUT, I do believe Jesus words where he says 'to the extent you do it to the least of these who are my brothers, you do it to me'. So, if you want to denegrate these men who humbly take the lead in the work that Christ commanded, and oversee the congregations in a biblical way, that is your right..but, you do it to christ also.
brofun 9 months ago
There is no term "Governing Body" in the New Testament. Look all you want. Governing Body is a corporate term, and aptly applies to leaders of a business corporation such as the Watchtower (publishing & real estate moguls).
The Watchtower teaches that the elders in Jerusalem were a governing body with centralized authority. And yet Paul overruled them at times, especially in regards to Judaizing. This shows they really didn't have central authority.
cooper79jeffr 9 months ago
@cooper79jeffr Never said the term 'governing body' was in the bible. But, the meaning is easily understood. When problems of belief and conduct came up, they were sent to the group of men who were in jerusalem, made up of elders and apostles. These would pray and discuss the issues, make a decision, and send out the decision by way of letter thru overseers. This group of men can be termed as a governing body..since they govern, or guide, the congregations.
brofun 9 months ago
@1955annemarie: You have a good day.
Mr30648270 10 months ago
Ray wasn't "beating his brothers". Vice-versa - he was smeared by the Watchtower hierarchy - including his own uncle. That a JW would come here and post the opposite of truth shows how well the Watchtower smear program against Ray Franz worked.
Ray documented the "behind the scenes" activity of the WT Governing Body and documented how they said one thing and practiced another. The WT has some of the best lawyers in the business and they couldn't find anything untrue in what he wrote.
cooper79jeffr 10 months ago 3
The Watchtower organization / Jehovah's Witnesses is a haven for pedophiles due to their "two eyewitness" rule which says that one witness cannot bring an accusation. Pedophiles do not bring or allow eyewitnesses to their perversion. Hence there is no "stringent" policy regarding pedophiles in the Jehovah's Witness organiztion -- actually quite the opposite.
cooper79jeffr 10 months ago
What a great honest man with a lot of courage! He shows the" big fat chiefs " from WT, what the bible truely says!!! One of the " true" witnesses! He don`t know ,that he help me to brake out of the mental prison of Brooklyn! R.I.P. Ray Franz
DocMegabrain 10 months ago 3
@DocMegabrain what did you do at brooklyn ?
OriginalJoseyWales 10 months ago
@OriginalJoseyWales I teached the WT-people what the "bible" says!The WT changed the words and facts from president to president! I read the WT from 1930 to 2010.The time for armegeddon was 1896,1914,1931,1975..........! What says the bible:nobody knows when the end comes! NOBODY!
DocMegabrain 10 months ago
It took a lot of courage and energy for Raymond to sit down and put to pen and paper the story of his experience with the Watchtower; to tell the truth of what life is really like at Watchtower Headquarters; what really goes on behind closed doors.
As a lover of truth, he felt compelled to write his books so that any JW could have their questions answered, and so that they could decide for themselves what to think and what to believe. He was a humble and loving beacon of truth for THOUSANDS...
1955annemarie 10 months ago 12
@1955annemarie but all this 'knowledge' he wouldd not have had had he not been taught it as a Witness.
OriginalJoseyWales 10 months ago
@OriginalJoseyWales What is your point, exactly? Biblical knowledge? You don't need the Watchtower for that. And Watchtower "understanding" has changed and changed again many times over the decades, so I wouldn't count "changing knowledge" as any real knowledge at all.
Ray was a learned Biblical man...which is a HUGE reason the Watchtower got rid of him & so many others; they studied the Bible secretly & were caught & disfellowshipped. So much for "Christian Love."
1955annemarie 10 months ago
@1955annemarie The knowledge he had of the bible came from him being a witness - that was my point. Witnesses are encouraged to study the bible personally so the image you paint of him being 'caught' studying the bible and being disfellowshipped for studying the bible is just absurd. Rather it seems he wanted to exert an influence over the organisation and its direction which others were not prepared to accept.
OriginalJoseyWales 10 months ago
@OriginalJoseyWales You are, of course, defending "The Mother," or the organization. Yes, I do get your point, which is one the WT has often expressed in relation to anyone thinking that they could "go somewhere else"; saying, "Whom did you learn THE TRUTH from?"
I am not "painting" any picture. What happened to Ray happened to a lot of other faithful ones at Bethel. Your "understanding" of the entire issue is straight "Standard Watchtower Rhetoric." Ray never tried to "influence" anyone
1955annemarie 10 months ago
@1955annemarie I read about this matter on wikipedia not from the society. I am not taking a defensive position at all. I was just making the point that the organisation he claimed he was now trying to teach the bible to was the one that taught him the bible. The bottom line for me - whatever the details - was that he had a difference of theological viewpoint with the organisation which led to the rift.
OriginalJoseyWales 10 months ago
@OriginalJoseyWales Your source surprises me as it sounded straight from the Law Department of the Watchtower. You may know that Time Magazine did a story on the incident, & one can be sure that a proper Watchtower Spokesman gave all the right answers to any questions asked...they always make the Organization look good. Your final point is exactly correct; he did try to share WHEN ASKED what he had learned from the Bible. What they did to him was disgusting. They threw him & his wife out.
1955annemarie 10 months ago
@OriginalJoseyWales - My bottom line is different, after having read Franz's two books. He documented inconsistencies between what they taught and what they practiced. There were even inconsistencies in how they applied their own doctrines to members in different parts of the world. Ray carefully documented the Malawi / Mexico inconsistency of the 1970's.
Also the method of how they changed doctrines (more than the doctrines per se) was of great concern to Ray.
cooper79jeffr 10 months ago
@cooper79jeffr and so ? I don't mean to discard your informed viewpoint but all organisations have inconsistencies in them right? From the family to the organisation of a fortune 500 company. Why should the existence of inconsistencies in themselves cause anyonee to lose their religous beliefs?
OriginalJoseyWales 10 months ago
@OriginalJoseyWales - The Watchtower organization claims to be "the truth" that you cannot question. They tell people to put their trust in them. However they have proven to be utterly imperfect and human, and not worthy of the absolute loyalty they demand from their rank-and-file members.
Inconsistecies from such a religion would only cause THINKING people to lose their religious beliefs. However some people are born to be followers. Such inconsistencies will never bother them.
cooper79jeffr 10 months ago
@cooper79jeffr If one expects perfection from humans then one is likely to be disillusioned with all the institutions in society. There is no suggestion that because someone speaks the truth that they will act or understand perfectly all the times..
OriginalJoseyWales 10 months ago
@OriginalJoseyWales - It's not just "imperfection" we're discussing here. In Matt. 23:3 Jesus said to "practice and obey whatever the Pharisees tell you to do. But do not do what they do for they do not practice what they preach."
So the Pharisees "spoke the truth". Does this mean they were worthy of the trust and loyalty of the regular Jewish people?
They treated followers with contempt (calling them amha-arets) and kicked out any who didn't adhere to their manmade rules.
cooper79jeffr 10 months ago
@cooper79jeffr Well Franz was hardly an amharet; he was a member of the governing body - a high position. He fell out with the organisation over doctrinal differences and he was removed to curtail his influence - rightly or wrongly. I think its sad that Franz got disillusioned after so many years of devotion but at the same time I cannot fault an organisation just for removing someone from post. Schools exclude pupils and companies fire staff.
OriginalJoseyWales 10 months ago
@OriginalJoseyWales Your point is well made, however, what if a school expelled a student for finding out some ugly truth about the heads of the school, & smearing his good name, just to shut him up? And what if a company fired an employee for trying to bring to light covered up wrongs of that company, even threatening him? Would this make the one fired or expelled the one in the wrong??
Have you ever seen the movie with Russel Crow, who played the whistle blower for the tobacco industry??
1955annemarie 10 months ago