I'm allergic to pretty much everything but not meat dairy or fruit/veges so if you cut out meat or meat and dairy I'd pretty much eat rabbit food. I like don't like fruit or vegetables I can't eat much dairy or I get eczema so do you want me to cut out one of the few things I can actually eat?
small farms don't kill their calfs and the animals live in better conditions I'm a vegetarian too and i live in texas so there is a lot of farms. I'm not sure if it would be as easy for your to find a small farm but if you look you might find one.
I personally wouldnt mind if someone would kill me fast and painlessly from behind without me knowing im going to die in advance, because i dont have time to worry before it happens and afterwards im dead so i cant care about anything anyways. An animal isnt smart enough to comprehend it is going to die, also it doenst leave back sad relatives.
@LatumWay I have an answer for you that will solve your problem. Buy a farm, raise a couple of goats, and milk em yourself! You may find it fun. Making cheese isn't that difficult either. ;-) Eat eggs? Buy a couple of chickens too. Good luck on your future investment. :3
@LatumWay ever tried going vegan? i've been trying it out recently (over christmas is a bad time to try something like that out, btw) and butter is pretty much the hardest thing to give up, i think. followed closely by cheese.
lol meat eating is a religion and all rationale for it is as religious as anything. people have never consumed such large amounts of meat as the west does now and they claim nothing must be changed. or they claim things should change, but do nothing about it other than write posts which manage to be morally superior even to the most self-righteous vegans.
@LatumWay I hope you read your messages, as I don't have the willingness to write multiple youtube comments and would rather just communicate in one go about this topic.
In a previous video you said "[the ALF and] Peter are complete twats". I assume you're referring to Peter Singer, and I think you should explain why you have this view of Singer.
@LatumWay I know that you've addressed his questionable views on bestiality (which doesn't alone make him a "twat", especially given his pro-animal advocacy), but have you considered his arguments on vegetarianism and ethics? (good vids: /watch?v=-BPna-fSNOE&list=FLQXe_W1Fgi7BlpGGAtabg_Q&index=4&feature=plpp_video and /watch?v=UHzwqf_JkrA)
A) your moral position on not eating meat is ultimately emotionally derived with some intellectual justification. That's ok, just as long as you recognize that emotional moral positions cannot and should not be universally applied.
B) moral justification for eating meat: the animal WILL die anyway, with varying degrees of suffering/struggle while alive. Either we eat it, or scavengers/bacteria do. We CAN humanely breed and slaughter, nature does not. Eat meat if you want to, encourage humane fa
@Celephais42 The animals are specifically bred for consumption. You pay to breed them... they don't live or die in the wild. It's also quite inefficient because they need water, food supplies, medical attention etc.
"your moral position on not eating meat is ultimately emotionally derived with some intellectual justification. "
You can make this claim about all moral arguments.
You do repeat yourself quite a bit, nothing personal it's just a bit annoying having to skip through several minutes to get past one point you try to make after you repeat yourself several times.
If you want a lunch with no animal death you are out of luck. The number of fish, insects, birds and small animals that die on a farm is mind boggling. Every time you plow you kills moles, voles etc... fertilizer run off kills fish. Pestacides kill....pests. Organic? Let's see what soil additives do you use for fertility? Bone meal, blood meal, chicken manure, cow manure, fish "manure" (which is ground up dead fish). I daresay a tomato salad has a higher body count than a steak.
The only way I can imagine a male calf paying for it's self and living to a ripe age is to become a breeding bull but of course most of the offspring of the bull has to be for meat.
The way to look at it however is this there are a number of calf sold for meat as a bi product of the milk industry additional to this there exist farms that bread with out milking they supply the difference between that witch is brought and that from the milk industry this is what you effect by not purchasing beef.
You say the word 'death' a lot in this video, do you not think animal suffering is a far more important problem than animal deaths? If so, I'd like to make you aware that the the vast majority of cows slaughtered for meat are ex-dairy cows, after they stop producing large quantities of milk despite the bovine growth hormones they are given.
Admittedly I don't know whether this is safe of financially feasible, but presumably the cows body can be tricked into producing milk by using hormones.
@shrikechan The problem he he referring to is that in order for a cow to start making milk it needs to have first calved. 1/2 of the resulting calves are born males and are therefore useless for dairy production. All veal is male--there is the connection between veal and dairy.
All I can say towards morality from my POV is that there is less impact on the world or human existence if we eat the meat of farm animals to a reasonable degree. But I have to be intellectuality honest with myself and say you make a good case to suggest there is no objective reason that we MUST eat meat or that it's even preferable. I guess the only other factor is, can you get the same nutrients on the same level from vegetarian products?
There have been many civilisations (both modern and ancient) that were vegetarian and still live normal human lifespans - often well above normal, if you include the high animal fat diet of the US and UK which has led to the biggest killer in our countries being heart attacks and stroke.
Besides, i think the fact that vegetarians and vegans are not dropping dead like flies at a young age is some pretty compelling evidence that their health has not deteriorated notciably.
@LiamBarden It's not high animal fat that's the problem, it's high carbohydrates in our diet that cause us to put on massive amounts of weight. Low carb, moderate fat, lots of fish, lean meats and tons of fruit and veg is the way to go, as that's how our bodies have evolved.
@Nightmare060 Yes. It is easy to get full nutrition from a vegan diet, and even easier from a vegetarian diet. You have to be a bit more conscious about what you eat, and make sure your diet is balanced... but that is a good thing to do regardless of if you eat meat or not. The reason that humans eat meat is because they like to eat it. If someone wants to stop eating meat, they can still get proper nutrition and be healthy.
It's not like animals aren't killed when growing vegetables or grain. If you care about baby cows that you're only indirectly funding the slaughter of by purchasing dairy, what about the indirect slaughter of rabbits and mice who get caught in harvesting equipment or are hunted as pests because they would simply eat away a farmer's crop? You can't even eat a slice of bread without blood on your hands. Change to the industry isn't made by removing your cash, it's funding the more ethical farms.
@IdaMiaDot I was saying it's beneficial to fund more ethical farms, not that no one should care about animals. I can't avoid purchasing goods that exploit or kill animals -> therefore I should fund programs that exploit and kill animals in a less harsh way or to a lesser degree so that these practices get money behind them.
"We"? I'm not an expert on farm equipment, and I doubt you're going to remodel the current standard... so by "we" do you mean someone else?
@Lloyath If you compare the most humane animal farming (small-scale pasture) to the least destructive methods of crop production then statistically you kill far fewer animals with the latter.
"I doubt you're going to remodel the current standard...?"
If the industrial status quo is unalterable then most people should not eat meat - because the majority of all meat products are supplied via intensive farming methods.
I can't avoid exploiting and killing animals -> Ergo I should endeavour not the cause undue suffering in the exploitation, or in the killing.
I can't avoid contributing to industries which Impact the environment -> Ergo I should select industries which are careful in their environmental impact, and do not cause irrevocable or massively harmful damage.
Animal Rights or Animal Welfare? If an Animal is a Sapient Being, it should get rights, otherwise, I'm concerned with welfare.
@Lloyath More grain has to be grown to produce meat from livestock by feeding livestock than buy just planting vegetables humans would eat straight away. In all cases of animal deaths vegetarianism is better.
On free range farming it's bad for the environment, because huge amounts of land are needed to get enough meat mass on an animal, as their grazing burns calories. the methane from free range farming is also more than factory farming!
@Lloyath These arguments you embraced have been destroyed by geoscientists plenty of times, but hey, remaining ignorant allows you to eat food, right?
The only morally acceptable way to get food on this planet is hunting. And even then I'd stop doing that if EVERYONE else did it too as it wouldn't be sustainable.
oh and eggs battery eggs are simply awe-full and so are a lot of dairy farms, they are incredibly cruel go free range or go vegan if you worry about animal cruelty
Regarding medical testing on animals, it's only necessary in the sense that we've assumed human lives are more valuable than animals, and therefore we don't test poorly understood substances on humans.
Problem is that if we are going to say animals are less valuable than humans, anything goes. How much less important are they? It becomes a question of degree, I think. If that's the case, it's hard to make argue about why your/my degree of valuation is better than anyone elses.
Browsing the comments reinforces that a lot of people seem to think vegetarians are vegetarian because they don't want to eat meat simply because you kill animals to get it and hate meat eaters. While that's true for some of them, other vegetarians understand that eating/killing animals for survival is necessary sometimes, but in this era it's done under horrifying conditions and we have plenty of alternatives.
To me the treatment of animals is more important than the fact that we eat them.
First, I think you were being smug. I rebuke your rebuke. :3 Secondly, there are farms that don't slaughter the offspring for food, but they sell them to people who raise them and kill them anyway. Otherwise it'd be an impossible business practice. Third, I ain't him, I dunno what he's saying. Fourth, no comment. Fifth; have a wonderful day, Jacob.
Milking doesn't generate enough money any more. My old man had to stop a while ago (altough, his slowly advancing age was contributory xD) so basically, I have to pay into their pension slightly o.o Only 100 pounds a month though.
I DIGRESS! The off-shoot is this; this whole "vegetarianism" debate is bloody stupid. Eat meat or don't, being a dick about it is not gonna help...
Meh, if you honestly think being a vegetarian does anything to help your cause then fill your boots.
While your at it gather all your vegetarian friends and try to drain the Atlantic with spoons.
(j/k j/k)
No but seriously, harvesting grains/corns/beans kill ten of thousands of rabbits,opossums,field mice,rats,racoons,frogs,gophers,shrews, feral cats/kittens,nesting birds.
You may think the numbers are small, but I worked for green giant and I know FOR SURE every field nets dump trucks FULL.
I don't tend to get my panties in a bunch over eating red meat. We are natural omnivores. That is evidenced by our teeth. But I tend to not eat a lot of red meat....mainly fish. This is because I prefer fish.
Omnivore: "I'm so superior to you that I'm happy to have you killed just to satiate a whim, a mere desire that will last for 20 minutes (i.e. during a meal). My 20 minutes of desire is worth more than your life." -> Justified attitude
Vegetarian: "I think that it's better not to kill animals for food." -> Smug, arrogant prick
Omnivore: "I shed skin cells everyday, so it's OK to extinguish the life of anything I want, for any reason." -> OK
Vegetarian: "I try to limit suffering." -> hypocrite
@Rationalific 1. you still are an Omnivore even if you choose not to eat meat. Also I don't think alot of meateaters think your a smug arrogant prick because you think it is better not to eat meat but though because alot of vagitarians present themselfs as I think it is better not to eat meat thus you I am superior to eat and look down on you for not following the same foodstandards as I do.
from my recollection of your old video - i can remember thinking you were being a bit smug. That being said the video response from your brother eating a burger titled 'meat orgasm' was Definatly smug. :D
As a species we have evolved to eat meat, it is a natural impulse and part of what made us a successful species, is it not? So why fight our natural impulses? Where does this idea that we must keep our natural impulses in check come from? Have we evolved to fight against our evolutionary behaviour? I'm curious about any response to this
@darkdawg100 As a species we did not evolve to eat meat, the shape of our mouths and the actions of our jaws are that of a herbivore not a carnivore. The human mouth looks more like the mouth of a grazing animal that a flesh eating one. Its also possible that our rapid mutation and evolution over other primates could have a lot to do with the drastic change in diet.
@123backinyerface Eating cooked meat and vegetation gave us an evolutionary advantage as it's easier to digest and in essence the frying pan is now an external stomach we can no longer digest raw meat. We lost the large jaw bones and attaching muscles of antecedent hominids that ate tougher vegetation.
But our mixed diet was probably an advantage over Homo Neanderthalensis who is now thought to have ate only meat.
Meat is not necessary for an individual to survive
@wounduppenguin Yeah I agree with that. I think we shouldn't try and cling to an instinctual past when we have the smarts to move far beyond it. I also have a sneaking suspicion that the violent nature of our species is directly related to diet. I myself have been veggie for 3 years, and I find that I want to rip peoples heads off a lot less...lol. Maybe turning the blind eye to millions of animals being slaughtered out of sight, correlates to waging wars out of sight too?
@123backinyerface Yes I do think that the argument that we are irrevocably binded to our evolutionary past is false when we we've moved past it in so many other ways- flying in aeroplanes, vaccines, etc- I think there is a certain amount of hunting instinct and we are ARE tribal apes after all so we probably have to accept that we can't completely irradiate war but can we minimize it? absolutely. (cont)
Eating corn = loads of mice, voles, moles and other small mammals killed by the combine harvesters.
I've explained this to you before Jacob and you choose to ignore it every time. Modern farming techniques kill hundreds of times more animals than farming livestock ever did, and while the cow is slaughtered humanely, the poor little vole is being scooped up and mulched by rotating blades. Or are you going to pretend this isn't the case... again.
@TornadoCreator Cows have a bigger brain capacity than mice and therefore propably a broader range of experiences (both good and bad). Cows propably form stronger attachments to other cows.
Also. In the case of the cow you breed it and 'make it suffer' deliberatly and for a long time. The vole you just kill as a collateral and otherwise it had a 'good life'. As to the death being more painfull: it is hard to say I assume the mouse doesn't feel much, it happens pretty fast.
So what cut off point do you have for brain capacity. At what level of sentience do you deem the life less worthwhile because my cat has a pretty small head but it's intelligent, has emotions, a distinct personality. Really, it's just special pleading.
As for your second point, actually the cow has the "good life", it has plenty of food, a safe place to live, no predators, vet care on demand; the mouse however lives it entire life fleeing predators and scavaging for food.
@TornadoCreator In what way is it special pleading? For me the right not to be killed is on a gradual scale. In the same sense you legaly turn adult at 18 but in reality it is a spectrum with gradual steps toward adulthood.
I would not say, that all organisms musn't be killed. It depends on weather or not it is a person and then how big its range of experiences is. I would also say that your housecat has more claim to live than the mouse.
@TornadoCreator Right, I am fucking sick of you, and others saying I 'choose to ignore' what you are saying. I've explained my opposition, and you are reiterating the same argument. That's not 'ignoring' you. That's 'growing tired of repeating myself'. Piss off.
so you have no problem keeping a cow pregnant her whole life so you can drink milk? I'm always interested in how vegetarians defend that. and i don't believe there are farms that don't kill the calves. see, when you use animals for ANY economic purpose, their treatment takes backseat. perhaps animal husbandry has a place in the future, but not now, i don't think
i feel bad for you. personally i looooooooooooove meat and have no problem with it. i have been present on 2-3 slaughterings (or how you now express that phrase right) and i didn't feel bad at all. my problem lies with the over slaughter, we kill more than we eat. its natural to eat what we can that including meat but to waste food on such a scale is bad in it self but i feel bad when we kill animals in vain
Are we not retrospectively condemn morally virtually all of our ancestors who had to eat meat to survive? Practically speaking, humankind would not have endured or even evolved without first becoming an apex predator back in the days. Also its interesting that as far as I know humans are classified as an omnivore species, that is a species that is evolutionarily compatible with eating both plants and meat like bears and pigs. Lastly I don't think all animals have complex consciousness.
the only good reason I've ever been given for meat eating (current veggie) is that certain species are more abundant as a result of us eating them. lobsters in Maine (for example) are more plentiful as a result of their fishing regulations than they would be if they were left to it. To a certain extent I accept it for free range and organic, but the idea of raising something to kill it is a bit macabre for me
The reason factory farms choose not to have the particular breed of cows that continuously produce milk without being pregnant is, of course, because they are able to make more money from the calf as well. If it weren't for people who consume veal, farmers would indeed prefer to go with the breed of cows that continuously produce meat without needing to be pregnant as this would be more economical.
Yes. They have even breed certain cows to continuously produce milk even without being pregnant. But just because dairy consumption does financially contribute toward an industry that abuses animals does not mean that it's on the same level as literally paying for the slaughtering of these animals. I've always held the position that this is a grayscale, not a black and white. Should we not drive cars, since tires and asphalt are made in part from animal byproducts?
What breed of cow continuously produces milk? Never comes across this, and a google search brings up nothing. A pituitary gland problem can cause a cow to produce a kind of milk continuously, but it's not real milk that is saleable.
@TheBoyFromNorfolk Hmm, I remember reading something about this once. Can't find it again. But even if I'm wrong, wouldn't it be a simple matter of giving the cow hormones to trick its body into thinking it's pregnant?
i understand the argument against eating meat but what i wonder is what will happen to the animals we eat if every one stopped eating them would they die out, after all farmers will not keep these animals just as pets and in a lot of country's there is not the space for them to run wild. i know this is not a good argument but one no one has answered me on. also would abortion of milking cows young be moral to keep milk and cheese, and is it worth eating meat thats tasteless worth it.
To me the tastiness of animals are worth killing them. A grey area results when looking at factory farming, because I think animals suffering is bad, but just killing them isn't bad. I think that it may actually be moral to engage in animal husbandry if the overall experience for the animal is better than trying to survive in the wild (at least we can kill cows quickly using the right technology. predation causes a long painful process of death). But overall I am such a greedy fuck I will eat..
One last thing. Only the best males are kept in almost every farm animal- and they go on to be real studs. The rest are sold as meat- I'm doubtful that you can find many sources that don't follow this practice, unless you want to try horse milk.
Those animals had a good life. Their life was good not only because it made their meat better, but because it made my life better, too. Up to the end, and especially there, they were happy.
If not for meat, they would never have lived. They never would have existed at all- and that stardust would never have played in the spring grass. Personally, I know I would always choose to exist.
Do you not think that animals deserve the right to be treated the same as humans in cases such as meat production and testing, since the difference of species, in the example, say, of a pig, does not affect its ability to suffer from these events just as a human would. Why would we not put a human through involuntary, often physically damaging testing? Do none of those reasons apply to pigs (etc.)?
I was a farmer, and I raised sheep for meat (and dairy- but thanks to the government, I couldn't sell that.)
I was in the high quality lamb market, so I did everything I could to improve the quality of the meat. I pasture raised them, ad gave them a good life, one with little fear (this damages the meat)
My favorite memory is the "Lamb races", where all the little lambs would race each other across the pasture, over the roundbales, and even across their mothers backs (who oddly didn't mind)-cont
Before the pre- chimp and hominid lineage separated, our ancestors lived much like Chimps do today. It wasn't until our ancestors moved out to the plains of Africa and started scavenging meat that we experienced rapid brain growth and started developing "culture" and eventually language. A lot of scientists believe the change from a largely vegetarian life to a omni existence is directly what coincided our current evolution.
Also, our omni lifestyle is what separates us from the other G. Apes.
While I understand that you believe there is some moral reason why your nutritional needs are less important then the preservation of the life of an animal. My first question is what defines the value of an animals life? I've seen you post to others about animals nervous system being a factor, in which case what is the difference between a multi-cellular nervous system designed to listen and respond to stimuli vs a cells receptor proteins with exactly the same function just on a smaller scale?
@failedcontinuum Nutritional needs? What nutritional needs? If you are a vegan or vegetarian and do enough research on the lifestyle (and if you're a meat eater who does the same research about vegan nutrition--including reading books on it and such) then you'd know that you can get all nutrients from a plant-based diet you can get from animal meat. I could give you a few websites on where we get our protein, calcium, zinc, iron, omega 3's, omega 6's, Vitamin B12, Vitamin D, etc. :)
@failedcontinuum There are 2 things which we should considre: 1. Animals (especially mammals) have very similar nervous systems. We know from ourselfs that this system can produce pain AND that animals try to avoid pain. From the golden rule we can assume, that neither other humans nor suficently similar animals want pain and have a preference for it's avoidance and we should respect this preference.
@reafdaw01 Maybe giving the wrong stimuli to a protist is like torture but so far we have no indication that it is the case.
2. Animals with self-awareness and a grasp of time have additional rights, because they have whises for the future and they have a prima facie right to have these wishes respected.
It all stems from a naturalistic argument for the rights of humans. If you applie these cathegories for all animals this is were you end up.
@reafdaw01 I personally think we have to respect animal preferences and not make them suffer. I however think it can be justified to kill an animal and eat it if you have treated it correctly and kill it without it knowing beforehand.
(con't) It's really annoying when people say human existence kills animals. Of course it does. They think wrongly by assuming vegetarianism or veganism is about "100% purity." Nope...it is to the best of our ability to try and not kill. It is not about purity. Of course we will participate in killing animals without directly being involved. It's the lifestyle change that attempts to aid in a decrease of suffering as well as decrease chances of cardiovascular disease and other things. :)
You would have more impact by only purchasing from farmers who treat their animals humanly, (more expensive, better product) which would give more farmers an incentive to produce that kind of product. If enough people switched, farmers still producing in an inhuman matter would not only be thought of as brutal, but their product would be considered inferior. As it is now, many farmers would love to do better by their animals, but simply can't afford to. Not much money in farming.
@mike000000000000able I respect anyone who purchases from farmer's markets and contributes to family farms. Your statements about purchasing that sort of meat are correct and it's a shame that's probably not going to happen any time soon, sadly. You are right that inhumane treatment produces a poor product. I recommend the doc "Food Inc." Very informative. Yes, mastitis is the infection the cow gets due to irritation. A very negative thing in the dairy industry. LOL I'm nutty? lol :)
Can't they just give the cow some hormones to keep her producing milk? I would bet that they could, but then they wouldn't get money from selling dead babies.
(con't) And I can provide sources for what I've said here. Primarily a few good lectures found here on youtube. :) I have close to NO knowledge about the UK dairy/meat industry, however. Only mainly American. But I can hardly imagine it would be a bit different. Maybe it is. I will go research a bit.
(con't) And cows are routinely injected with sperm to be kept continually pregnant, their babies are ripped from them days after they're born, and then the milk that is intended for their young is continually sucked from them...sometimes they milk so much they get infections which the puss can get into the milk. The USDA allows a certain percentage of puss in every pint of milk I think it is. And dairy cows, once served their purpose, get auctioned off to slaughter houses.
@fruitikay These animals selected to produce milk, but it' not an exact science. As I'm sure many nursing mothers know, overuse hurts, but so does having too much milk in there. Both cases can lead to irritation, and this can lead to a infection(called mastitis). the very early stage of this is undetectable visually, so you run a test every few animals to try and catch it.
The only way to cure this is to carefully milk it out, but this milk is dumped.
(con't) *sigh* It's usual for meat-eaters to point out "Well you eat eggs, HAH" or "You drink milk, HAH!" While I myself am leaning to be more vegan, it's sort of a sad excuse for them to try and accuse us of being hypocrites when they haven't acknowledged the problem at hand. Red herring if you will. But I will say Jacob, you should do research on the dairy and egg industry. They have just as much harmful hormones in milk as they can in meat and cows aren't treated well (and chickens) (con't)
@fruitikay I really don't have an issue with most hormones- but poor treatment of animals is not only disgusting, but it produces an inferior product.
I've been spending a lot of my time reading tons of books and doing tons of online research in defense of a plant-based diet. I might contribute to the discussion with a video soon...but I want the discussion to be peaceful just like you because there is a lot of passion on both sides. It's typical for meat-eaters to think we are smug just because we are choosing a different lifestyle we personally see to be better for health, environment, and animals. They hate that we think like that. (con't)
Anyone that says animal testing can be eliminated or that we shouldn't do it is talking bollocks.
Yes, computer modelling has come on by leaps and bounds - indisputable fact.
The notion that we could do without it... a nonsense.
What truly galls me is the animal rights fanatics want to paint scientists as sadistic torturers. Ironic given the record of organisations such as PETA...
Some theists are going to think an atheist is smug just because s/he says s/he's an atheist. Similarly, people are going to think a veg*n is smug just because s/he say s/he's vegan.
Honestly, I find it frustrating that the same people who, rightfully, rooted for Hitchens whenever he shot down some religious argument is a way most find arrogant, would then flip out whenever someone expresses the slightest concern for any animal other than humans or maybe cats and dogs..
Not all diets work for everyone. I was a vegetarian for a year and I got very sick. This was even with researching my diet and eating properly. I know it can work for some people but health wise I think overall vegetarianism is not a superior diet and veganism is detrimental to health. Morally I don't have a problem with eating meat but I certainly don't agree with the factory farming industry. I definitely don't think animals should be abused and be mistreated for their entire lives until death
I'm not sure that there aren't small dairy's that just produce what they have, but you would have to check your area. Do some local research. If not you could move to India. They have neighborhood cows that go around and give milk to the homes in a particular area.
I made comment about animal testing in the original video.
You need to go to choose veg dot com and look up "cage free" in the videos section. Unless I had my own hens and could insure their care, I will never eat an egg again.
no one says I'm morally superior to someone else without sounding a bit smug but also I don't think I could make an argument that would reach your level for justifying eating meat it but it reaches my level and I have no problems of moral consistency. Basically I'm trying to say based on your morality you are superior to me but from my point of view we are the same. Therefore I'm morally superior :) (joke)
you should do a video on putting peanut butter on your balls and letting the family dog lick it off. come on. that would be an interesting video. not that I wasnt on the edge of my seat for this one one though. ha ha.
As long as the animals are dying for the benefit to society (IE medical research, providing food, managing populations so they don't destroy themselves, ect) I see no problem with killing animals. The only think I'm against is when the deaths of animals lack a purpose or the only purpose is to provide entertainment.
I think it's possible to get milk that comes from sources that do not slaughter animals. Dairy cows are quite different from beef cows.I suspect they are only slaughtered at the end of their useful milking lifespan. They may in some instances just be put out to pasture.
Hey Jacob. I don't recall if I asked you this question before so this may be redundant:
Do you kill insects/arachnids? If yes, what (if anything) separates them from other arthropods (shellfish) or mollusks? All have central nervous systems, although I'm not sure if any of them are sentient; one might make the case in favor of arthropods being sentient, but it's a much harder one for mollusks.
If mollusks aren't sentient, would that make you more inclined to eat them?
@SiriusMined Which mollusks are you talking about? Mollusca is, after all, a huge phylum that includes the cephalopods, among other things. There's probably a really good case for the cephalopods being sentient.
What Meats do you miss? Could you justify eating a stupid animal, say, turkey? What If they all dies in unfortunate rain-drowning accidents, could you eat meat then?
@LatumWay "Perhaps the "dumb bird" reputation is the reason behind the tale that during a rainstorm, turkeys will stare up at the sky with their beaks hanging open, transfixed, until they drown."
I'm a vegetarian, and I'm really glad you're not one of those vegetarians that make the rest of us look bad. I'm glad you're really respectful about it (:
paris creek DB farms in Australia dont slaughter (or sell) bobby calves (the male calves that they cant use in the dairies). They allow the calves to grow up to about 1 year old and those are then sent to the slaughterhouses. not great, but it eliminates the veal component of the dairy industry
@SelfImmolator its a sustainable approach by all accounts. dont take my word for it though, Im certain there are other farms out there doing the same thing. this group was pretty heavily publicised after a debacle here in Australia about live cattle exports to a 'halal' slaughterhouse in indonesia, and they were held up as a model on what could be done with this approach. Tha being said- and this is my own two cents seperate from the main topic here, but ban halal and kosher
In the UK theres a growing movement to support something called 'Rose Veal' as opposed to white veal (the european, crated, kind), which is pretty much exactly what you describe.
Male calves have no value in the dairy industry and are mostly killed, same in the egg industry, male chicks have no value and are killed.
I think the solution to "guilt" free milk would be something akin to hormonal birth control for cows wherein the hormonal combination mimics pregnancy and keeps them lactating, and parthenogenesis for cows eliminating the need for males. Though the cost involved in the research alone means that the industry will never consider it a viable option.
@Cyrathil True and I've heard this before, although I'm not sure exactly which hormones are used and whether such complaints are legitimate or media driven.
challange... wait for it..... aaaaaccepted! =D
anchor83 2 weeks ago
I'm allergic to pretty much everything but not meat dairy or fruit/veges so if you cut out meat or meat and dairy I'd pretty much eat rabbit food. I like don't like fruit or vegetables I can't eat much dairy or I get eczema so do you want me to cut out one of the few things I can actually eat?
Plasticplas1 2 weeks ago
small farms don't kill their calfs and the animals live in better conditions I'm a vegetarian too and i live in texas so there is a lot of farms. I'm not sure if it would be as easy for your to find a small farm but if you look you might find one.
DearJayyCee 1 month ago in playlist More videos from LatumWay
MAN TIME!!!
WillTheFace 1 month ago
I personally wouldnt mind if someone would kill me fast and painlessly from behind without me knowing im going to die in advance, because i dont have time to worry before it happens and afterwards im dead so i cant care about anything anyways. An animal isnt smart enough to comprehend it is going to die, also it doenst leave back sad relatives.
TheAst4rtes 1 month ago
@LatumWay I have an answer for you that will solve your problem. Buy a farm, raise a couple of goats, and milk em yourself! You may find it fun. Making cheese isn't that difficult either. ;-) Eat eggs? Buy a couple of chickens too. Good luck on your future investment. :3
D0nutHutSlut 1 month ago
meat is tasty. Animals would eat you too if they knew how tasty you are
TheJorjj 1 month ago
@LatumWay ever tried going vegan? i've been trying it out recently (over christmas is a bad time to try something like that out, btw) and butter is pretty much the hardest thing to give up, i think. followed closely by cheese.
seymoureable 1 month ago
lol meat eating is a religion and all rationale for it is as religious as anything. people have never consumed such large amounts of meat as the west does now and they claim nothing must be changed. or they claim things should change, but do nothing about it other than write posts which manage to be morally superior even to the most self-righteous vegans.
doutonight 1 month ago
@LatumWay I hope you read your messages, as I don't have the willingness to write multiple youtube comments and would rather just communicate in one go about this topic.
NoMoreMasters 1 month ago
In a previous video you said "[the ALF and] Peter are complete twats". I assume you're referring to Peter Singer, and I think you should explain why you have this view of Singer.
4iner2 1 month ago
@4iner2 -___-
LatumWay 1 month ago
Comment removed
4iner2 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@LatumWay I know that you've addressed his questionable views on bestiality (which doesn't alone make him a "twat", especially given his pro-animal advocacy), but have you considered his arguments on vegetarianism and ethics? (good vids: /watch?v=-BPna-fSNOE&list=FLQXe_W1Fgi7BlpGGAtabg_Q&index=4&feature=plpp_video and /watch?v=UHzwqf_JkrA)
Or am I missing something given the "-___-"?
4iner2 1 month ago
..... Farming
Celephais42 1 month ago
A) your moral position on not eating meat is ultimately emotionally derived with some intellectual justification. That's ok, just as long as you recognize that emotional moral positions cannot and should not be universally applied.
B) moral justification for eating meat: the animal WILL die anyway, with varying degrees of suffering/struggle while alive. Either we eat it, or scavengers/bacteria do. We CAN humanely breed and slaughter, nature does not. Eat meat if you want to, encourage humane fa
Celephais42 1 month ago 2
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@Celephais42 The animals are specifically bred for consumption. You pay to breed them... they don't live or die in the wild. It's also quite inefficient because they need water, food supplies, medical attention etc.
"your moral position on not eating meat is ultimately emotionally derived with some intellectual justification. "
You can make this claim about all moral arguments.
IdaMiaDot 1 month ago
You do repeat yourself quite a bit, nothing personal it's just a bit annoying having to skip through several minutes to get past one point you try to make after you repeat yourself several times.
SeNsaToR 1 month ago
If you want a lunch with no animal death you are out of luck. The number of fish, insects, birds and small animals that die on a farm is mind boggling. Every time you plow you kills moles, voles etc... fertilizer run off kills fish. Pestacides kill....pests. Organic? Let's see what soil additives do you use for fertility? Bone meal, blood meal, chicken manure, cow manure, fish "manure" (which is ground up dead fish). I daresay a tomato salad has a higher body count than a steak.
MichaelnChristine 1 month ago
The only way I can imagine a male calf paying for it's self and living to a ripe age is to become a breeding bull but of course most of the offspring of the bull has to be for meat.
The way to look at it however is this there are a number of calf sold for meat as a bi product of the milk industry additional to this there exist farms that bread with out milking they supply the difference between that witch is brought and that from the milk industry this is what you effect by not purchasing beef.
hens0w 1 month ago
You say the word 'death' a lot in this video, do you not think animal suffering is a far more important problem than animal deaths? If so, I'd like to make you aware that the the vast majority of cows slaughtered for meat are ex-dairy cows, after they stop producing large quantities of milk despite the bovine growth hormones they are given.
LiamBarden 1 month ago
Admittedly I don't know whether this is safe of financially feasible, but presumably the cows body can be tricked into producing milk by using hormones.
phsopher 1 month ago
I'm putting this on my list of now two vids I intend to make a video response to... both of 'em yours.... funny how that turns out.
MiniarHalfshasa 1 month ago
There probably are farms that only raise cows for dairy, I just don't personally know the names of any.
shrikechan 1 month ago
@shrikechan The problem he he referring to is that in order for a cow to start making milk it needs to have first calved. 1/2 of the resulting calves are born males and are therefore useless for dairy production. All veal is male--there is the connection between veal and dairy.
Veal is delicious.
no2religions 1 month ago
All I can say towards morality from my POV is that there is less impact on the world or human existence if we eat the meat of farm animals to a reasonable degree. But I have to be intellectuality honest with myself and say you make a good case to suggest there is no objective reason that we MUST eat meat or that it's even preferable. I guess the only other factor is, can you get the same nutrients on the same level from vegetarian products?
Nightmare060 1 month ago
@Nightmare060
There have been many civilisations (both modern and ancient) that were vegetarian and still live normal human lifespans - often well above normal, if you include the high animal fat diet of the US and UK which has led to the biggest killer in our countries being heart attacks and stroke.
Besides, i think the fact that vegetarians and vegans are not dropping dead like flies at a young age is some pretty compelling evidence that their health has not deteriorated notciably.
LiamBarden 1 month ago
@LiamBarden It's not high animal fat that's the problem, it's high carbohydrates in our diet that cause us to put on massive amounts of weight. Low carb, moderate fat, lots of fish, lean meats and tons of fruit and veg is the way to go, as that's how our bodies have evolved.
spackhollogay 1 month ago
@LiamBarden Name one vegitarian/vegan culture please....
MichaelnChristine 1 month ago
@LiamBarden Point taken. Thanks for the info :).
Nightmare060 1 month ago
@Nightmare060 Yes. It is easy to get full nutrition from a vegan diet, and even easier from a vegetarian diet. You have to be a bit more conscious about what you eat, and make sure your diet is balanced... but that is a good thing to do regardless of if you eat meat or not. The reason that humans eat meat is because they like to eat it. If someone wants to stop eating meat, they can still get proper nutrition and be healthy.
MNICY 1 month ago
i like meat...
LewisAM37 1 month ago
It's not like animals aren't killed when growing vegetables or grain. If you care about baby cows that you're only indirectly funding the slaughter of by purchasing dairy, what about the indirect slaughter of rabbits and mice who get caught in harvesting equipment or are hunted as pests because they would simply eat away a farmer's crop? You can't even eat a slice of bread without blood on your hands. Change to the industry isn't made by removing your cash, it's funding the more ethical farms.
Lloyath 1 month ago 3
@Lloyath I can't avoid exploiting and killing animals -> therefore I should exploit and kill animals.
I can't avoid contributing to industries which destroy the environment -> therefore I should destroy the environment.
How about we take animal rights seriously and work on ways to improve the practises in crop production?
IdaMiaDot 1 month ago
@IdaMiaDot I was saying it's beneficial to fund more ethical farms, not that no one should care about animals. I can't avoid purchasing goods that exploit or kill animals -> therefore I should fund programs that exploit and kill animals in a less harsh way or to a lesser degree so that these practices get money behind them.
"We"? I'm not an expert on farm equipment, and I doubt you're going to remodel the current standard... so by "we" do you mean someone else?
Lloyath 1 month ago
@Lloyath If you compare the most humane animal farming (small-scale pasture) to the least destructive methods of crop production then statistically you kill far fewer animals with the latter.
"I doubt you're going to remodel the current standard...?"
If the industrial status quo is unalterable then most people should not eat meat - because the majority of all meat products are supplied via intensive farming methods.
IdaMiaDot 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@IdaMiaDot
I can't avoid exploiting and killing animals -> Ergo I should endeavour not the cause undue suffering in the exploitation, or in the killing.
I can't avoid contributing to industries which Impact the environment -> Ergo I should select industries which are careful in their environmental impact, and do not cause irrevocable or massively harmful damage.
Animal Rights or Animal Welfare? If an Animal is a Sapient Being, it should get rights, otherwise, I'm concerned with welfare.
TheBoyFromNorfolk 2 weeks ago
@Lloyath More grain has to be grown to produce meat from livestock by feeding livestock than buy just planting vegetables humans would eat straight away. In all cases of animal deaths vegetarianism is better.
On free range farming it's bad for the environment, because huge amounts of land are needed to get enough meat mass on an animal, as their grazing burns calories. the methane from free range farming is also more than factory farming!
Atheogen 1 month ago
@Lloyath These arguments you embraced have been destroyed by geoscientists plenty of times, but hey, remaining ignorant allows you to eat food, right?
The only morally acceptable way to get food on this planet is hunting. And even then I'd stop doing that if EVERYONE else did it too as it wouldn't be sustainable.
Atheogen 1 month ago
@Atheogen Hunting> plant agriculture> livestock.
Atheogen 1 month ago
oh and if everyone went vegi then all meat animals would be culled as they would be no use to the farmers
KinSmallProductions 1 month ago
oh and eggs battery eggs are simply awe-full and so are a lot of dairy farms, they are incredibly cruel go free range or go vegan if you worry about animal cruelty
KinSmallProductions 1 month ago
also anyone who thinks medical testing is wrong then if they truly believe it let them take the 1st possibly fatal tests
KinSmallProductions 1 month ago
nothing against vegetations who dont use the 'i dont eat meat because its cruel' any other reason is valid
KinSmallProductions 1 month ago
and justification of meat... its nice
tjyc1 1 month ago
Regarding medical testing on animals, it's only necessary in the sense that we've assumed human lives are more valuable than animals, and therefore we don't test poorly understood substances on humans.
Problem is that if we are going to say animals are less valuable than humans, anything goes. How much less important are they? It becomes a question of degree, I think. If that's the case, it's hard to make argue about why your/my degree of valuation is better than anyone elses.
hooloovoo1st 1 month ago
i love the little diggs at each over
tjyc1 1 month ago
Browsing the comments reinforces that a lot of people seem to think vegetarians are vegetarian because they don't want to eat meat simply because you kill animals to get it and hate meat eaters. While that's true for some of them, other vegetarians understand that eating/killing animals for survival is necessary sometimes, but in this era it's done under horrifying conditions and we have plenty of alternatives.
To me the treatment of animals is more important than the fact that we eat them.
aerendyll 1 month ago
I have cut milk and eggs out of my diet, but i have the hardest time cutting out cheese. I recognize thats its quite hypocritical of me.
Salment 1 month ago
First, I think you were being smug. I rebuke your rebuke. :3 Secondly, there are farms that don't slaughter the offspring for food, but they sell them to people who raise them and kill them anyway. Otherwise it'd be an impossible business practice. Third, I ain't him, I dunno what he's saying. Fourth, no comment. Fifth; have a wonderful day, Jacob.
PressXtonotdie 1 month ago
Milking doesn't generate enough money any more. My old man had to stop a while ago (altough, his slowly advancing age was contributory xD) so basically, I have to pay into their pension slightly o.o Only 100 pounds a month though.
I DIGRESS! The off-shoot is this; this whole "vegetarianism" debate is bloody stupid. Eat meat or don't, being a dick about it is not gonna help...
LichQueenKathie 1 month ago
Meh, if you honestly think being a vegetarian does anything to help your cause then fill your boots.
While your at it gather all your vegetarian friends and try to drain the Atlantic with spoons.
(j/k j/k)
No but seriously, harvesting grains/corns/beans kill ten of thousands of rabbits,opossums,field mice,rats,racoons,frogs,gophers,shrews, feral cats/kittens,nesting birds.
You may think the numbers are small, but I worked for green giant and I know FOR SURE every field nets dump trucks FULL.
Connected2U2 1 month ago
Our family eats very little red meat, but we eat a lot of fish. It's not for any moral reasons, just because we tend to like fish better.
Hereticbooks 1 month ago
"I do miss some meat."
...That's what she sa--*is shot*
Sloth7d 1 month ago
Actually, a cow only has to give birth once to produce milk for a lifetime.
Hereticbooks 1 month ago
@Hereticbooks Yes this is true I'm glad someone mentioned that. Although male calves are still valueless in the dairy industry and are mostly killed.
wounduppenguin 1 month ago
@wounduppenguin
I don't tend to get my panties in a bunch over eating red meat. We are natural omnivores. That is evidenced by our teeth. But I tend to not eat a lot of red meat....mainly fish. This is because I prefer fish.
Hereticbooks 1 month ago
Omnivore: "I'm so superior to you that I'm happy to have you killed just to satiate a whim, a mere desire that will last for 20 minutes (i.e. during a meal). My 20 minutes of desire is worth more than your life." -> Justified attitude
Vegetarian: "I think that it's better not to kill animals for food." -> Smug, arrogant prick
Omnivore: "I shed skin cells everyday, so it's OK to extinguish the life of anything I want, for any reason." -> OK
Vegetarian: "I try to limit suffering." -> hypocrite
Rationalific 1 month ago
@Rationalific 1. you still are an Omnivore even if you choose not to eat meat. Also I don't think alot of meateaters think your a smug arrogant prick because you think it is better not to eat meat but though because alot of vagitarians present themselfs as I think it is better not to eat meat thus you I am superior to eat and look down on you for not following the same foodstandards as I do.
sirilidion 1 month ago
from my recollection of your old video - i can remember thinking you were being a bit smug. That being said the video response from your brother eating a burger titled 'meat orgasm' was Definatly smug. :D
SpiritKeeper 1 month ago
As a species we have evolved to eat meat, it is a natural impulse and part of what made us a successful species, is it not? So why fight our natural impulses? Where does this idea that we must keep our natural impulses in check come from? Have we evolved to fight against our evolutionary behaviour? I'm curious about any response to this
darkdawg100 1 month ago
@darkdawg100 As a species we did not evolve to eat meat, the shape of our mouths and the actions of our jaws are that of a herbivore not a carnivore. The human mouth looks more like the mouth of a grazing animal that a flesh eating one. Its also possible that our rapid mutation and evolution over other primates could have a lot to do with the drastic change in diet.
123backinyerface 1 month ago
@123backinyerface Eating cooked meat and vegetation gave us an evolutionary advantage as it's easier to digest and in essence the frying pan is now an external stomach we can no longer digest raw meat. We lost the large jaw bones and attaching muscles of antecedent hominids that ate tougher vegetation.
But our mixed diet was probably an advantage over Homo Neanderthalensis who is now thought to have ate only meat.
Meat is not necessary for an individual to survive
wounduppenguin 1 month ago
@wounduppenguin Yeah I agree with that. I think we shouldn't try and cling to an instinctual past when we have the smarts to move far beyond it. I also have a sneaking suspicion that the violent nature of our species is directly related to diet. I myself have been veggie for 3 years, and I find that I want to rip peoples heads off a lot less...lol. Maybe turning the blind eye to millions of animals being slaughtered out of sight, correlates to waging wars out of sight too?
123backinyerface 1 month ago
@123backinyerface Yes I do think that the argument that we are irrevocably binded to our evolutionary past is false when we we've moved past it in so many other ways- flying in aeroplanes, vaccines, etc- I think there is a certain amount of hunting instinct and we are ARE tribal apes after all so we probably have to accept that we can't completely irradiate war but can we minimize it? absolutely. (cont)
wounduppenguin 1 month ago
@wounduppenguin (cont) I don't think eating meat is necessarily linked to war, a lot of wars are about territory, read: apes.
wounduppenguin 1 month ago
@darkdawg100 Look up 'naturalistic fallacy'.
LatumWay 1 month ago
Let's just agree that it's no one else's fucking business what someone else eats.
MikaelDryden 1 month ago
Eating beef = 1 cow
Eating corn = loads of mice, voles, moles and other small mammals killed by the combine harvesters.
I've explained this to you before Jacob and you choose to ignore it every time. Modern farming techniques kill hundreds of times more animals than farming livestock ever did, and while the cow is slaughtered humanely, the poor little vole is being scooped up and mulched by rotating blades. Or are you going to pretend this isn't the case... again.
TornadoCreator 1 month ago 2
@TornadoCreator I guess the argument would be that the cow has a bigger claim to live than mice.
reafdaw01 1 month ago
@reafdaw01
Why? What makes a cow more intrinsically valuable and deserving of life than a mouse or vole?
TornadoCreator 1 month ago
@TornadoCreator Cows have a bigger brain capacity than mice and therefore propably a broader range of experiences (both good and bad). Cows propably form stronger attachments to other cows.
Also. In the case of the cow you breed it and 'make it suffer' deliberatly and for a long time. The vole you just kill as a collateral and otherwise it had a 'good life'. As to the death being more painfull: it is hard to say I assume the mouse doesn't feel much, it happens pretty fast.
reafdaw01 1 month ago
@reafdaw01
So what cut off point do you have for brain capacity. At what level of sentience do you deem the life less worthwhile because my cat has a pretty small head but it's intelligent, has emotions, a distinct personality. Really, it's just special pleading.
As for your second point, actually the cow has the "good life", it has plenty of food, a safe place to live, no predators, vet care on demand; the mouse however lives it entire life fleeing predators and scavaging for food.
TornadoCreator 1 month ago
@TornadoCreator In what way is it special pleading? For me the right not to be killed is on a gradual scale. In the same sense you legaly turn adult at 18 but in reality it is a spectrum with gradual steps toward adulthood.
I would not say, that all organisms musn't be killed. It depends on weather or not it is a person and then how big its range of experiences is. I would also say that your housecat has more claim to live than the mouse.
reafdaw01 1 month ago
@TornadoCreator Right, I am fucking sick of you, and others saying I 'choose to ignore' what you are saying. I've explained my opposition, and you are reiterating the same argument. That's not 'ignoring' you. That's 'growing tired of repeating myself'. Piss off.
LatumWay 1 month ago
i think the world should just follow the diet opinions of one of your shorter video's - BEANS!
JellyMan3634 1 month ago
Cheers for the response at last :D it was well worth the wait :D
I'll try and answer some of your questions in a video response, ASAP.
well, ASAICBA.
TheBoyFromNorfolk 1 month ago
@TheBoyFromNorfolk Ha.
LatumWay 1 month ago
@LatumWay What's your response to the whole vole in the cornfield argument? I think it's a bit silly but would like to know your opinion.
reafdaw01 1 month ago
@LatumWay
so you have no problem keeping a cow pregnant her whole life so you can drink milk? I'm always interested in how vegetarians defend that. and i don't believe there are farms that don't kill the calves. see, when you use animals for ANY economic purpose, their treatment takes backseat. perhaps animal husbandry has a place in the future, but not now, i don't think
mellamosean 1 month ago
i feel bad for you. personally i looooooooooooove meat and have no problem with it. i have been present on 2-3 slaughterings (or how you now express that phrase right) and i didn't feel bad at all. my problem lies with the over slaughter, we kill more than we eat. its natural to eat what we can that including meat but to waste food on such a scale is bad in it self but i feel bad when we kill animals in vain
MrOhitsujiza 1 month ago
Are we not retrospectively condemn morally virtually all of our ancestors who had to eat meat to survive? Practically speaking, humankind would not have endured or even evolved without first becoming an apex predator back in the days. Also its interesting that as far as I know humans are classified as an omnivore species, that is a species that is evolutionarily compatible with eating both plants and meat like bears and pigs. Lastly I don't think all animals have complex consciousness.
eydos 1 month ago
the only good reason I've ever been given for meat eating (current veggie) is that certain species are more abundant as a result of us eating them. lobsters in Maine (for example) are more plentiful as a result of their fishing regulations than they would be if they were left to it. To a certain extent I accept it for free range and organic, but the idea of raising something to kill it is a bit macabre for me
kingOFtheFISHpeople 1 month ago
@kingOFtheFISHpeople Me too.
LatumWay 1 month ago
One more thing, keep an eye out for the ingredient "rennet" in cheeses (i.e. grinded up calf stomachs).
JacobSpinney 1 month ago
@JacobSpinney I try to.
LatumWay 1 month ago
The reason factory farms choose not to have the particular breed of cows that continuously produce milk without being pregnant is, of course, because they are able to make more money from the calf as well. If it weren't for people who consume veal, farmers would indeed prefer to go with the breed of cows that continuously produce meat without needing to be pregnant as this would be more economical.
JacobSpinney 1 month ago
Comment removed
kingOFtheFISHpeople 1 month ago
Yes. They have even breed certain cows to continuously produce milk even without being pregnant. But just because dairy consumption does financially contribute toward an industry that abuses animals does not mean that it's on the same level as literally paying for the slaughtering of these animals. I've always held the position that this is a grayscale, not a black and white. Should we not drive cars, since tires and asphalt are made in part from animal byproducts?
JacobSpinney 1 month ago
@JacobSpinney
What breed of cow continuously produces milk? Never comes across this, and a google search brings up nothing. A pituitary gland problem can cause a cow to produce a kind of milk continuously, but it's not real milk that is saleable.
TheBoyFromNorfolk 1 month ago
@TheBoyFromNorfolk Hmm, I remember reading something about this once. Can't find it again. But even if I'm wrong, wouldn't it be a simple matter of giving the cow hormones to trick its body into thinking it's pregnant?
JacobSpinney 1 month ago
Soya milk. Taste like shit but you get used to it.
PrometheusIsFree 1 month ago
i understand the argument against eating meat but what i wonder is what will happen to the animals we eat if every one stopped eating them would they die out, after all farmers will not keep these animals just as pets and in a lot of country's there is not the space for them to run wild. i know this is not a good argument but one no one has answered me on. also would abortion of milking cows young be moral to keep milk and cheese, and is it worth eating meat thats tasteless worth it.
333derick333 1 month ago
To me the tastiness of animals are worth killing them. A grey area results when looking at factory farming, because I think animals suffering is bad, but just killing them isn't bad. I think that it may actually be moral to engage in animal husbandry if the overall experience for the animal is better than trying to survive in the wild (at least we can kill cows quickly using the right technology. predation causes a long painful process of death). But overall I am such a greedy fuck I will eat..
TheRepublicOfUngeria 1 month ago
@TheRepublicOfUngeria ...tortured ass animals when they are sold to me.
TheRepublicOfUngeria 1 month ago
I say eat what you want to eat and if anyone doesn't like it. Tell them to balls
spaceman300 1 month ago
I wonder if the same results (milk production) could be obtained by artificial hormone regulation? It seems plausible enough.
download333 1 month ago
One last thing. Only the best males are kept in almost every farm animal- and they go on to be real studs. The rest are sold as meat- I'm doubtful that you can find many sources that don't follow this practice, unless you want to try horse milk.
mike000000000000able 1 month ago
ued
So you may ask- what kind of monster am I?
Those animals had a good life. Their life was good not only because it made their meat better, but because it made my life better, too. Up to the end, and especially there, they were happy.
If not for meat, they would never have lived. They never would have existed at all- and that stardust would never have played in the spring grass. Personally, I know I would always choose to exist.
mike000000000000able 1 month ago
Do you not think that animals deserve the right to be treated the same as humans in cases such as meat production and testing, since the difference of species, in the example, say, of a pig, does not affect its ability to suffer from these events just as a human would. Why would we not put a human through involuntary, often physically damaging testing? Do none of those reasons apply to pigs (etc.)?
vandbg 1 month ago
I was a farmer, and I raised sheep for meat (and dairy- but thanks to the government, I couldn't sell that.)
I was in the high quality lamb market, so I did everything I could to improve the quality of the meat. I pasture raised them, ad gave them a good life, one with little fear (this damages the meat)
My favorite memory is the "Lamb races", where all the little lambs would race each other across the pasture, over the roundbales, and even across their mothers backs (who oddly didn't mind)-cont
mike000000000000able 1 month ago
Before the pre- chimp and hominid lineage separated, our ancestors lived much like Chimps do today. It wasn't until our ancestors moved out to the plains of Africa and started scavenging meat that we experienced rapid brain growth and started developing "culture" and eventually language. A lot of scientists believe the change from a largely vegetarian life to a omni existence is directly what coincided our current evolution.
Also, our omni lifestyle is what separates us from the other G. Apes.
skinnywhop87 1 month ago
While I understand that you believe there is some moral reason why your nutritional needs are less important then the preservation of the life of an animal. My first question is what defines the value of an animals life? I've seen you post to others about animals nervous system being a factor, in which case what is the difference between a multi-cellular nervous system designed to listen and respond to stimuli vs a cells receptor proteins with exactly the same function just on a smaller scale?
failedcontinuum 1 month ago 4
@failedcontinuum Nutritional needs? What nutritional needs? If you are a vegan or vegetarian and do enough research on the lifestyle (and if you're a meat eater who does the same research about vegan nutrition--including reading books on it and such) then you'd know that you can get all nutrients from a plant-based diet you can get from animal meat. I could give you a few websites on where we get our protein, calcium, zinc, iron, omega 3's, omega 6's, Vitamin B12, Vitamin D, etc. :)
fruitikay 1 month ago
@failedcontinuum There are 2 things which we should considre: 1. Animals (especially mammals) have very similar nervous systems. We know from ourselfs that this system can produce pain AND that animals try to avoid pain. From the golden rule we can assume, that neither other humans nor suficently similar animals want pain and have a preference for it's avoidance and we should respect this preference.
reafdaw01 1 month ago
@reafdaw01 Maybe giving the wrong stimuli to a protist is like torture but so far we have no indication that it is the case.
2. Animals with self-awareness and a grasp of time have additional rights, because they have whises for the future and they have a prima facie right to have these wishes respected.
It all stems from a naturalistic argument for the rights of humans. If you applie these cathegories for all animals this is were you end up.
reafdaw01 1 month ago
@reafdaw01 I personally think we have to respect animal preferences and not make them suffer. I however think it can be justified to kill an animal and eat it if you have treated it correctly and kill it without it knowing beforehand.
reafdaw01 1 month ago
@failedcontinuum Are you talking about plants?
LatumWay 1 month ago
(con't) It's really annoying when people say human existence kills animals. Of course it does. They think wrongly by assuming vegetarianism or veganism is about "100% purity." Nope...it is to the best of our ability to try and not kill. It is not about purity. Of course we will participate in killing animals without directly being involved. It's the lifestyle change that attempts to aid in a decrease of suffering as well as decrease chances of cardiovascular disease and other things. :)
fruitikay 1 month ago 10
@fruitikay
You would have more impact by only purchasing from farmers who treat their animals humanly, (more expensive, better product) which would give more farmers an incentive to produce that kind of product. If enough people switched, farmers still producing in an inhuman matter would not only be thought of as brutal, but their product would be considered inferior. As it is now, many farmers would love to do better by their animals, but simply can't afford to. Not much money in farming.
mike000000000000able 1 month ago
@mike000000000000able I respect anyone who purchases from farmer's markets and contributes to family farms. Your statements about purchasing that sort of meat are correct and it's a shame that's probably not going to happen any time soon, sadly. You are right that inhumane treatment produces a poor product. I recommend the doc "Food Inc." Very informative. Yes, mastitis is the infection the cow gets due to irritation. A very negative thing in the dairy industry. LOL I'm nutty? lol :)
fruitikay 1 month ago
@fruitikay
I apologize if it seems I'm attacking you, your comments were simply more interesting, and thus they caught my attention.
mike000000000000able 1 month ago
Can't they just give the cow some hormones to keep her producing milk? I would bet that they could, but then they wouldn't get money from selling dead babies.
raythetse 1 month ago
@raythetse Hormones extend the milk cycle, but not indefinitely.
mike000000000000able 1 month ago
(con't) And I can provide sources for what I've said here. Primarily a few good lectures found here on youtube. :) I have close to NO knowledge about the UK dairy/meat industry, however. Only mainly American. But I can hardly imagine it would be a bit different. Maybe it is. I will go research a bit.
fruitikay 1 month ago
(con't) And cows are routinely injected with sperm to be kept continually pregnant, their babies are ripped from them days after they're born, and then the milk that is intended for their young is continually sucked from them...sometimes they milk so much they get infections which the puss can get into the milk. The USDA allows a certain percentage of puss in every pint of milk I think it is. And dairy cows, once served their purpose, get auctioned off to slaughter houses.
fruitikay 1 month ago
@fruitikay These animals selected to produce milk, but it' not an exact science. As I'm sure many nursing mothers know, overuse hurts, but so does having too much milk in there. Both cases can lead to irritation, and this can lead to a infection(called mastitis). the very early stage of this is undetectable visually, so you run a test every few animals to try and catch it.
The only way to cure this is to carefully milk it out, but this milk is dumped.
mike000000000000able 1 month ago
(con't) *sigh* It's usual for meat-eaters to point out "Well you eat eggs, HAH" or "You drink milk, HAH!" While I myself am leaning to be more vegan, it's sort of a sad excuse for them to try and accuse us of being hypocrites when they haven't acknowledged the problem at hand. Red herring if you will. But I will say Jacob, you should do research on the dairy and egg industry. They have just as much harmful hormones in milk as they can in meat and cows aren't treated well (and chickens) (con't)
fruitikay 1 month ago
@fruitikay I really don't have an issue with most hormones- but poor treatment of animals is not only disgusting, but it produces an inferior product.
mike000000000000able 1 month ago
@fruitikay Yeah... something I messed out in my video. Even if we recognised that dairy is a problem, that doesn't automatically make meat okay.
LatumWay 1 month ago
I've been spending a lot of my time reading tons of books and doing tons of online research in defense of a plant-based diet. I might contribute to the discussion with a video soon...but I want the discussion to be peaceful just like you because there is a lot of passion on both sides. It's typical for meat-eaters to think we are smug just because we are choosing a different lifestyle we personally see to be better for health, environment, and animals. They hate that we think like that. (con't)
fruitikay 1 month ago
@fruitikay
I don't hate you, I just think your a little.... fruity. Perhaps a bit nutty. But you certainly are not hated.
mike000000000000able 1 month ago
HEY. I know a plant that talks, but you kinda have to smoke the plant first for it to talk to you. :/
MagnusIan 1 month ago
Anyone that says animal testing can be eliminated or that we shouldn't do it is talking bollocks.
Yes, computer modelling has come on by leaps and bounds - indisputable fact.
The notion that we could do without it... a nonsense.
What truly galls me is the animal rights fanatics want to paint scientists as sadistic torturers. Ironic given the record of organisations such as PETA...
ProphetTenebrae 1 month ago
you have my vote for worst vegetarian ever.
sWeepingsAnd 1 month ago
@sWeepingsAnd Seconded.
LatumWay 1 month ago
Some theists are going to think an atheist is smug just because s/he says s/he's an atheist. Similarly, people are going to think a veg*n is smug just because s/he say s/he's vegan.
Honestly, I find it frustrating that the same people who, rightfully, rooted for Hitchens whenever he shot down some religious argument is a way most find arrogant, would then flip out whenever someone expresses the slightest concern for any animal other than humans or maybe cats and dogs..
kissfan7 1 month ago
Everything's stardust, EAT IT MOTHERFUCKER
omar12331 1 month ago
Not all diets work for everyone. I was a vegetarian for a year and I got very sick. This was even with researching my diet and eating properly. I know it can work for some people but health wise I think overall vegetarianism is not a superior diet and veganism is detrimental to health. Morally I don't have a problem with eating meat but I certainly don't agree with the factory farming industry. I definitely don't think animals should be abused and be mistreated for their entire lives until death
CappitranoBellephant 1 month ago
Buy your own cow.
QuantumGh0st 1 month ago
I'm not sure that there aren't small dairy's that just produce what they have, but you would have to check your area. Do some local research. If not you could move to India. They have neighborhood cows that go around and give milk to the homes in a particular area.
I made comment about animal testing in the original video.
You need to go to choose veg dot com and look up "cage free" in the videos section. Unless I had my own hens and could insure their care, I will never eat an egg again.
RoseWhiteRoseRed 1 month ago
I am a meater, but it was refreshing to see someone make honest arguments, instead of being very agressive.
polarlarve 1 month ago
Is it sad that it took me half the video to realize he was saving "calves" instead of "carbs"?
GodofVengence 1 month ago
@GodofVengence It took me half of the video too...
SlapPopStacy 1 month ago
@SlapPopStacy it feels good to know that I'm not alone lol...
GodofVengence 1 month ago
@GodofVengence @SlapPopStacy you guys are weird.
LatumWay 1 month ago
no one says I'm morally superior to someone else without sounding a bit smug but also I don't think I could make an argument that would reach your level for justifying eating meat it but it reaches my level and I have no problems of moral consistency. Basically I'm trying to say based on your morality you are superior to me but from my point of view we are the same. Therefore I'm morally superior :) (joke)
johnnyd101 1 month ago
you should do a video on putting peanut butter on your balls and letting the family dog lick it off. come on. that would be an interesting video. not that I wasnt on the edge of my seat for this one one though. ha ha.
Slapnuts6931 1 month ago
@Slapnuts6931 Given this comment, and your username, I think your obsessed with nuts. Go check it out.
LatumWay 1 month ago
As long as the animals are dying for the benefit to society (IE medical research, providing food, managing populations so they don't destroy themselves, ect) I see no problem with killing animals. The only think I'm against is when the deaths of animals lack a purpose or the only purpose is to provide entertainment.
Jamez377 1 month ago
Well, now when are you going to respond to ME, huh? ¬_¬
FishofMuu 1 month ago
@FishofMuu About?
LatumWay 1 month ago
@LatumWay About anarchism. You told me multiple times to PM you about it, but you never replied when I have.
FishofMuu 1 month ago
Answer to the milk issue: Soy Milk. Problem solved.
FrillyDoom17 1 month ago
@FrillyDoom17 BUT ITS SOOOO GROSSSSSS
LatumWay 1 month ago
Sorry, did I say "needed to"? I meant "purely to consume them when i want to."
Anghellik9 1 month ago
I think it's possible to get milk that comes from sources that do not slaughter animals. Dairy cows are quite different from beef cows.I suspect they are only slaughtered at the end of their useful milking lifespan. They may in some instances just be put out to pasture.
SiriusMined 1 month ago
Hey Jacob. I don't recall if I asked you this question before so this may be redundant:
Do you kill insects/arachnids? If yes, what (if anything) separates them from other arthropods (shellfish) or mollusks? All have central nervous systems, although I'm not sure if any of them are sentient; one might make the case in favor of arthropods being sentient, but it's a much harder one for mollusks.
If mollusks aren't sentient, would that make you more inclined to eat them?
SiriusMined 1 month ago
@SiriusMined Which mollusks are you talking about? Mollusca is, after all, a huge phylum that includes the cephalopods, among other things. There's probably a really good case for the cephalopods being sentient.
Longuncattr 1 month ago
@Longuncattr
Good point, I should have been more specific.
However, I used "mollusks" in the colloquial sense, as in all the typical bi-vlaves that people know (clams, mussels, etc.)
SiriusMined 1 month ago
I eat beef, and i'm fine with it. I fucking hate cows, and i'd kill them myself if I needed to.
Anghellik9 1 month ago
What Meats do you miss? Could you justify eating a stupid animal, say, turkey? What If they all dies in unfortunate rain-drowning accidents, could you eat meat then?
tamc1337 1 month ago
@tamc1337 Animals tend to die in unfortunate accidents when i'm hungry.
Anghellik9 1 month ago
@Anghellik9
I'm reminded of a comedian I once saw....
"we don't hurt people, but people get hurt...." ;-)
SiriusMined 1 month ago
@tamc1337 ...like in Heavy Rain?
LatumWay 1 month ago
@LatumWay "Perhaps the "dumb bird" reputation is the reason behind the tale that during a rainstorm, turkeys will stare up at the sky with their beaks hanging open, transfixed, until they drown."
animals (dot)howstuffworks(dot)com/birds/turkey-drown(dot)htm
It's a funny story to tell around Thanksgiving in the US, though as the site says, it's a myth
tamc1337 1 month ago
GO VEGAN AND STOP TALKING ABOUT NUANCES!
mullen2105 1 month ago
I'm a vegetarian, and I'm really glad you're not one of those vegetarians that make the rest of us look bad. I'm glad you're really respectful about it (:
Hollandai 1 month ago
paris creek DB farms in Australia dont slaughter (or sell) bobby calves (the male calves that they cant use in the dairies). They allow the calves to grow up to about 1 year old and those are then sent to the slaughterhouses. not great, but it eliminates the veal component of the dairy industry
DeusExWhyZed 1 month ago
@DeusExWhyZed that 'paris creek DB farms' approach, is it a sustainable practice or is it more like one farm making it feel better about itself?
SelfImmolator 1 month ago
@SelfImmolator its a sustainable approach by all accounts. dont take my word for it though, Im certain there are other farms out there doing the same thing. this group was pretty heavily publicised after a debacle here in Australia about live cattle exports to a 'halal' slaughterhouse in indonesia, and they were held up as a model on what could be done with this approach. Tha being said- and this is my own two cents seperate from the main topic here, but ban halal and kosher
DeusExWhyZed 1 month ago
@DeusExWhyZed
In the UK theres a growing movement to support something called 'Rose Veal' as opposed to white veal (the european, crated, kind), which is pretty much exactly what you describe.
TheBoyFromNorfolk 1 month ago
Male calves have no value in the dairy industry and are mostly killed, same in the egg industry, male chicks have no value and are killed.
I think the solution to "guilt" free milk would be something akin to hormonal birth control for cows wherein the hormonal combination mimics pregnancy and keeps them lactating, and parthenogenesis for cows eliminating the need for males. Though the cost involved in the research alone means that the industry will never consider it a viable option.
wounduppenguin 1 month ago
@wounduppenguin There are also the people who complain about hormones in the cows currently, so adding more will probably piss people off more.
Cyrathil 1 month ago
@Cyrathil True and I've heard this before, although I'm not sure exactly which hormones are used and whether such complaints are legitimate or media driven.
wounduppenguin 1 month ago