Let's Talk About Race with Baratunde & Cenk Part 3

[flow267]

dude your brilliant but the color of your skin is why your still home on youtube and cenk's on msnbc and the tyt army is going strong.... dropping elbow from the top rope lmaooooooooo

[thescooterscoop]

What makes it so difficult is the the word "racist" and "racism". These words are so incredibly charged that the mere hint of an accusation can cause a firestorm of fight or flight responses.

Anyone who has studied Crucial Conversation methodology knows that for open dialog to happen you must first disarm the conversation. You must allow the other party to feel comfortable that they will not be judged. Help them to resist their natural instincts and keep an open dialog. We need a better wrd

[SamariaTV]

alcoholics must admit that they are alcoholics in order to address alcoholism. racists must do the same.

To heal a disease it must be attended to, not ignored.

[ncfwhitetigress]

I like your idea but disarming the term "racism" is going to be really hard to do because it's so taboo in our modern society. Changing a word's negative connotations can take a long time.

[theastrusmega]

Baratunde + Cenk = Network Television Show.

.....you guys should seriously think about it. ID MUCH RATHER WATCH YOU THAN DL HUGHLEY.....

[genxtargetmarket]

If the end goal is to eradicate racism in America then Cenk's approach makes the most sense. It's called politics and the slow gentle approach is what is called for on this issue, in this day & age.

If more work has to be done by white people, then the argument has to be made palatable to them. You can 'fatigue' them with cries of racism.

[Indubitably14]

great debate, im really enjoying it

[YasirTV]

i think the best of both worlds would be to talk about these issues but watch your words...

stop labelling everythin as racist, its a harsh word

[yuhavinit1]

why don't you stop that. don't be envious. lets get with the discussion. i actually wanted to start this but you got there first; thanks LOL

[juliact]

I personally think that the racism dialogue would be absolutely strengthened if it includes sexism, class and disabled discrimiination. Otherwise I believe that it can be fundamentally undermined by itself. Eg. how can any movement that supports emancipation of any ethnic group ignore the subjugation of its women? I believe that the discussion needs to be underpinned by the idea of universal human rights, rather than splintering off people's identities and loyalties.

[Ironzealot7531]

what subjugation of women?

do honestly think white women have it as bad as racial minorities in the western world?

If you want to talk about what happens to women in the third world, that's fine.

But white females are just fine in this society, better off than white males in certain respects(longevity, family law, healthcare, etc).

[LifeUntilLove]

Better off? What are you talking about? How is getting paid at best 70% of what a male earns better? If you haven't noticed we have had a minority president but not a female president and African Americans got the right to vote 60 years before women (14th amendment vs. 19th amendment.) No one is willing to accept that women are still discriminated against in this country and everywhere in the world. At least minorities don't have to worry about the rights to their bodies being taken away.

[Ironzealot7531]

first off, according to the latest "data," it's about 80% today. And even this is misleading as it's simply a comparison of ALL working men against ALL working women.

This figure seems to imply that women are paid less for the same work, which is not the case. The reality is that men simply take slightly higher paying jobs on average.

If that's all you have to complain about, I'd say women have it pretty good.

(cont)

[Ironzealot7531]

women are better off because they: have a longer life expectency, get de facto custody of children in divorce, receive lighter sentences than men for similar crimes, violence against women is seen as more serious than violence against men, despite men comprising the majority of the victims of violent crime, and receive a number of special legal protections that don't apply to men, a violation of the 14th ammendment BTW.

If all you've got is the mythical pay gap I'd say you're doing well

[LifeUntilLove]

Are you serious? Men just "take better jobs" like women don't want jobs that pay well? So women just chose to be in poverty right? How about all the stereotypes women have to face and the glass ceiling? The list goes on and on. Plus, our life expectancy has nothing to do with society, it's just that was biologically so you can't use that as an excuse like society 'allowed' women to have longer lives.

[Ironzealot7531]

*facepalm*

men are women are NOT interchangable. They go into different fields because they have different interests on average. The service sector doesn't typically pay as well as the engineering sector for instance.

Despite this the pay gap has narrowed from 60% to 80% in just a few decades. This makes sense as more old men retire and more young women rise the ranks

It has nothing to do with discrimination. Employers aren't idiots, why not have (cont)

[Ironzealot7531]

why not hire all female staff if you're able to pay them less for the same work? Short answer is because you can't pay them less for the same work.

And yes, the life expectency gap is indeed partially the fault of society. Men are much more likely then women to die young because they are less likely to seek medical care and because they tend to work far more dangerous jobs and engage in more generally risky behaviors.

this is due to the pressure to be "manly" that exists in our culture

[LifeUntilLove]

The risky behaviors is driven by testosterone, not society so that is not a good point and what about the pressure women face to be "thin" and "sexy"? At least no one is turning men into sex objects and still treating them like property( Especially out of the US.) Employers do pay less if they can get away with it which in the past they have, but hopefully that will end. Plus, why are women so underrepresented in the government?

[Ironzealot7531]

women are underrepresented in government because most representatives are dinosaurs. As they exit they will be replaced by more women

and yes, society does contribute to the lack of male life expectency. We have always valued the lives of women over the lives of men. Think back to the sinking of the Titanic, "women and children first" etc

this is why violence against women is focused on despite the vast majority of murder and assault victims being male

[LifeUntilLove]

The Titanic was almost a hundred years ago. I don't think the infant girls being killed in China or the widows in India who are burned alive think that they are being valued by society. Women have not been valued, they have been considered property and second class citizens for centuries. If we were so valued, then women would be in all the positions of power.

[Ironzealot7531]

you do realize that I'm speaking of western society, right? You have no influence on cultures other than your own.

Even in medieval Arthurian poems men are commanded to serve women, and in the last 150 years murdering a woman has always been seen as especially heinous.

Female power has always been more informal than male power, but simply stating that "women are property" doesn't tell the whole story.

(cont)

[Ironzealot7531]

For instance, nearly all advertising of consumer goods is targeted towards women. This is because women have controlled approximately 80% of all consumer spending since the 1920's.

Basically meaning, 80% of every dollar spent on consumer goods is either spent BY or FOR women. Including times when women had little to no personal income.

I'm not sure how you make the leap from value to power however, and I don't understand why you think all positions of power should be occupied by women

[LifeUntilLove]

I was making a point about how if you value people, you generally want them in charge because you believe that they know best. How is having advertising targeted to women have anything to do with their social standing? There are plenty of ads target towards kids, does that mean that they have gained some social status and respect?

[Ironzealot7531]

kids actually have a great deal of power and influence in our society, though not as much as women.

Because women decide what is purchased, corporate america caters to them rather than men. This has nothing to do with respect, I was just using it as an example of some of the more subtle power that women have traditionally had.

I suggest you learn some history. I think you'd be surprised by how complex gender dynamics have been over the years.

It's not as simple as "male priviledge"

[LifeUntilLove]

I know more history then you do. All the catering in the world doesn't erase the fact that women are still not considered equal to men in terms of options and choices and there are facts to prove that.

[Ironzealot7531]

you know more history than me? That's quite a claim considering you know nothing about my educational background or particular interests.

I'd also be interested in seeing these "facts" of yours that supposedly prove how tough it is to be female. Academia's coddling of feminist dogma aside, the average american woman is doing better than the average american man, by all accepted measures of welfare except income.

[LifeUntilLove]

If you are going to claim I don't know history then I can claim that neither do you. It's harder for women to get into a lot of colleges because they accept less qualified men over women on purpose to try to balance the ratio. The facts I am talking about come from personal experience, education, reading, and from UNICEF, the UN, the WHO, the ILO, and the FAO to name a few.

[Ironzealot7531]

indeed some colleges do have a form of affirmative action for men to balance the ratio of males and females. Although some colleges do the exact opposite.

MIT and other tech schools accept far more less qualified women over more qualified men to balance the ratio. I don't see what this has to do with feminism.

Your also talking about women outside of western society, which is something not applicable to this conversation. Neither of us can influence what happens in india or afghanistan

[juliact]

Point 2: I think racism is obviously a complex phenomenon which has many levels: economic, political, psychological, social. The political aspect means that racism is definitely related to class, sexism and able body-ism! (among others!) This means it is a power issue. It is one way of the powerful to cement their status, and while it is a very powerful way (cos' it has the many other dimensions) it is only one way. Sexism is also very powerful as it is similarly multi-layered. cont...

[juliact]

Point 1: I really agree with you Baratunde about calling out racism and "embracing it" - and FYI I'm a white woman in Australia. I agree that "we're all a little bit racist" and one of the biggest problems is people who get hysterically offended about being called racist rather than being able to consider their actions/attitudes and language etc. From a white person's perspective I would say white people need to be challenged on this MORE, along the lines of what you're saying.

[astmapiippu]

The problem in USA is that ALL THINGS are seen through race. In USA everything is about race.

I didnt see this cartoon as racist. I thought the idea in the cartoon was that stimulus bill was so stupid/disordered that it was like monkey would have written it. Maybe Im naive, but I thought it didnt have anything to do with race.

Im not American so I dont know all the details of this case, maybe im wrong.

[eirefrance]

You know, in complete contrast to my comment on part 1, I wonder if a lot of white people are actually 100% aware of white priviledge, but since it benefits them, they lazily accept it.

[elfielvr]

Baratunde, first of all, I am a white girl - and as big a fan as I am of Cenk's, was sorely disappointed with his response to the NYP cartoon, for the reasons you cited - too much foofy "oh-let's-consider-what-they might-have-been-thinking" bullshit. One should be able to call something what it is - plain and simple. I understannd and condone the need for conversation, which is why what you and he are doing is so awesome BUT. Like I said - CALL SOMETHING WHAT IT IS.Quit pandering to the spoiled.

[akaEtoo]

you know I enjoy the ability you both show in being able to disagree agreeably, its just a nice change for both the internet and the pundits. When Cenk gets his show on MSNBC you guys should have a "weekly" segment just like this.

[billionaireby16]

I feel ya Baratunde... I do believe that black folks have to appease white folks before white folks ever come close to admitting anything..It's as if we have to walk a mile, so they can walk two feet... Moreover, I also agree that CLASS has to be included in this discussion, and I believe it is CLASS that has revealed the true condition of America and the World, white, black, brown, yellow and red. Poor is poor and Rich is rich. There's, the common link between the inner-city and the rural poor.