Response to NYTN on the issue of women pastors.

[gimmie1261]

you ppl need to watch the history of Christianity. it is a pBS special but also available on netflix etc. half the things you practice are in error and passed down in corruption. learn to think for yourselves.

[oldschoolstinger]

@gimmie1261 With all respect to you, I have studied Christian History and not real optimistic in getting an objective view of Christian History from PBS.

[gimmie1261]

@oldschoolstinger funny thing. the same things in the doc are what you will find in any research. unless of course, you are researching from within "the church".

[Wormanatti]

I agree with CincyTucky. The scripture doesn't say Junia was a woman in the 1st place. When one examines the text carefully. Paul addresses Andronicus & Junia follow by fellow kinsmen & my fellow prisoners. He is referring to the names forementioned. We know women aren't kinsmen b/c bible refers to women being kinswomen(Leviticus18:17) Let's use the argument Junia was a women. THE TEXT STILL DOES NOT SAY "SHE" WAS AN APOSTLE. THE TEXT CLEARLY SAYS THEY WERE NOTE OR (KNOWN) AMONG THE APOSTLES.

[coolwater55]

@Wormanatti

Junia - a form of Julia. JuniaS is the male name. This is specifically Junia a woman.

Rm 16: 7

"Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives and my fellow prisoners; they are prominent among the apostles and they were in Christ before me"

I love how men spend pages of writing to refute that Junia was a women and the apostle term here means NOTHING.

[coolwater55]

@Wormanatti

The translation is NOT kinsmen. It is relatives. Junia is a woman. That has been established by many esteemed scholars who had to reevalute and study at times.

Even Catholics have Junia as a woman.

[ThatRockWasChrist]

The video stops at 1:10 - nonetheless - an elder must be the husband of one wife presents problems regarding Paul - who had none. Also, there's an issue that you have not considered - men had been practicing polygamy and frequently had concubines. This was never an issue with women who never had more than one husband.

[cincytuckyblk]

What do you do with Junias in Roman 16:7?

[oldschoolstinger]

Part 1 First let me apologize 4 not being here in a while. I finished school last month & have been trying 2 get a job. Real life has kept me from the You Tube community. I do plan on responding to CRoadwarrior real soon. As far as your question about Junia goes, a couple of things. Its not conclusive that Junia is a woman. Church fathers arent in a agreement about that.

[oldschoolstinger]

Second if Junia is an apostle than were talking about 2 different offices. Apostle & Elder. I stand by what I said before. The scriptures teach that the office of Elder is exclusive for a qualified man.

[CRoadwarrior]

The word of God did not come to us in English. The passage in 1 Tim. 2 is speaking in the context of the husband/wife relationship. The Greek words mistranslated "a woman" and "a man" should be translated "a wife" and "a husband." The passage is not talking about men and women in general. 1 Tim. 3 does not make a positive statement against women pastors. It is speaking about men in that context, but it does not exclude women by default of the silence on women.

[oldschoolstinger]

Thanks 4 taking the time to look at my vid & responding. I'm well aware that the Bible's original languages were in Hebrew 4 the OT & Koine Greek for the NT. I use the NASB considered 1 of the best English translations that r on the market today. You'll have to show me, why you're right, & they r wrong. I must take exception w/ you that these passages are not talking about setting the church in order & the qualifications of Elders/Pastors/Bishops/Oversee­rs. I continue my thought.

[CRoadwarrior]

Arguing from a translation that is supposed to be the "best" is not an argument. You don't learn the original languages from relying on English translations.

[oldschoolstinger]

In fairness, you haven't given me a good reason to believe you're right about the Greek & the NASB & just about every other English translation that translated the words that way is wrong. I'm not a Greek scholar. I do know how to use the tools that are out there though. My main concern is what do these passages teach, and what are the qualifications that God has given for Elders. Thank you though for your decorum. God bless.

[oldschoolstinger]

You are putting yourself on the spot though in saying that the NASB & other sound Bible translations have this wrong & you are right. My question is valid in asking you, why you're right on this & they are wrong. I'm not saying you can't do this, I'm just saying you you're making some big claims and need to show proof.

[CRoadwarrior]

I have learned Greek years ago and have taught it. So I don't have to rely on English translations. I'm not the only one saying this, as this was pointed out years ago. There are translations which show that those words should be translated "wife" and "husband" in 1 Tim. 2. I did a graduate level paper on 1 Corin. 14:35 and 1 Tim. 2:11,12, and I know from that study that we cannot forbid women in general from ministry from those passages. They have been misunderstood for years.

[loveangelc]

is there a way you could pm it to me if you even still have it? thnks

[CRoadwarrior]

loveangelc. If you are referring to my paper on women in ministry, I could email it to you. But I am about to put it up on my website soon. I will be away in Israel for 3 weeks with limited Internet access. So hopefully I can post it before I leave. Otherwise, you can message me your email and I can send it to you.

[CRoadwarrior]

loveangelc. I have begun to put my article up on my website regarding women preachers. I also encourage you to view my series on the topic. I have not touched women pastors as yet, but the arguments against women pastors are very weak logically and Biblically.

[oldschoolstinger]

In these passages Paul gives the qualifications 4 the office of Elder & Deacon. These passages r talking about church order. There is no getting away from it. If Paul understood that woman could hold the office of Elder/Pastor, than it would be logical 2 assume that he would list the qualifications that a woman would need 2 have 2 hold that office. However, in 1 Tim. 2 he unequivocally says he doesn't allow a woman 2 exercise authority over a man, & he says why.

[CRoadwarrior]

Again, if you study the Greek, not an English translation, you will understand the point that the Greek words used are usually translated "husband" and "wife." They are the EXACT same words you find in Ephesians 5:22-28 and 1 Peter 3:1-7. So in 1 Tim. 2, Paul is speaking in the context of the husband/wife relationship, not men and women in general. We know this because there are Greek words for males and females in general, as used in Romans 1:26,27.

[oldschoolstinger]

For the sake of argument, lets say you're right. The terms for men & woman are better translated husband & wife. How does that negate that the passage is talking about qualifications for Elders/Pastors. That's what I'm more concerned about. If these passages aren't talking about church order & the qualifications of Elders, what is it talking about.?

[CRoadwarrior]

The issue is in how we interpret 1 Tim. 2:11,12, which many have misinterpreted to mean women in general cannot teach men in general or pastor. That passage is speaking in the context in the Greek about the husband/wife roles in the family. 1 Tim. 3 is another story, where people assume from silence that women cannot hold the elder/bishop offices. Yet Phoebe was a deacon, despite the fact that 1 Tim. 3 gives no qualifications for female deacons, which means 1 Tim. 3 is not a prohibition.

[oldschoolstinger]

In context it's how Christ's church should be ordered.The passages in ! Timothy & Titus give us the qualifications for Elder & Deacon. I not only believe these passages exclude woman to be Pastors/Elders but also unqualified men. If you believe the Bible does allow for woman pastors, I would ask you to show me from scripture & maybe give an example. Thanks again for checking out my vid and your comments.

[CRoadwarrior]

Again, in the Greek of Romans 16:1, Pheobe is called a deacon, not just a "servant" as many translations render it. You can easily check this by looking into various translations. Paul nowhere clearly says "women cannot be deacons and pastors/elders." That is a misreading and a form of eisegesis. God does not restrict his gifting to men only, as even in the OT there were female prophets who did exactly the same thing as males. There were not many, but there were some.

[oldschoolstinger]

I can tell, you & are I going to have fun. I'm not objecting to female deacons. So no contention there. If Paul was not restricting the office to woman, than what was he saying in 1 Tim. 2 & than after in 3 giving what the qualifications were for an Elder. If a woman can hold the office of Elder, where are their qualifications listed? I'm not guilty of eisegesis. I'm just reading the text in context. I'll continue my thought.

[CRoadwarrior]

Asking why the office of elder does not list qualifications for women in 1 Tim. 3 is not a valid argument since it is an argument from silence. Why is there no qualifications for prophets, apostles, evangelists, teachers in 1 Tim. 3? You can't build an entire doctrine around a question based on silence in a text. Otherwise, no one can be prophets, apostles, evangelists because no qualifications are given.

[oldschoolstinger]

Yes there were a few woman prophets in the OT, however, the office of Prophet in the OT is not the same as the Elder in the NT. No comparison. I think we would agree that the office of an Elder is a calling. However, God gave us the qualifications for the office of an Elder. That calling has to line up with what God has already revealed.

[CRoadwarrior]

I do not accept the claim that the OT "office" of prophet and today's "elder" are not comparable. That makes no sense, since an elder gives the word from God just like a prophet. The qualifications do not say a woman cannot have the office. WE make that assertion, but that's not what the text itself says.

[oldschoolstinger]

croadwarrior; I'd love to take the time to respond to you now, however, I'm a full time student & have 2 tests tomorrow. So I need to do some studying tonight. Please be patient with me and I'll get back to you in a couple of days. God bless.

[CRoadwarrior]

@oldschoolstinger. You can take your time. I understand, since I am a part time student who is studying Hebrew. So I completely understand. I am planning to post my graduate paper on women in ministry to my website. I fully get the arguments and have gone through them in my paper, and came to the conclusion that 1 Tim. 2:11,12 and 1 Cor. 14 cannot be used to deny women ministry positions from that study. I am hoping to get to that this weekend.

[darthfocus]

@CRoadwarrior

if a husband cant sit under his wife's teaching then if she was a pastor i guess he couldn't go to her church?

[CRoadwarrior]

@darthfocus But where does it say that a husband can't be under his wife's teaching? Scripture does not make that claim. I suggest you watch my series on Women Preachers.

[darthfocus]

@CRoadwarrior

1 Tim 2 talks about a woman not exercising authority over a man, pro female pastor position holds that this is speaking of husbands and wives and has nothing to do with chapter 3. If this has to do with husbands and wives alone then the husband of a female pastor could not sit under her pastoral teaching authority at her church?

[CRoadwarrior]

@darthfocus Do you know what the Greek word for "excercise authority" in 1 Tim. 2 is? Do you know its meaning? If not, I suggest you view my series and learn some facts from the Greek text, not what many English versions read.

[darthfocus]

@CRoadwarrior

Could you answer the question without asking me questions, I've asked two times. =)

[CRoadwarrior]

@darthfocus The answer is simply you misunderstand the passage.

[darthfocus]

@CRoadwarrior

But saying that doesn't answer my question. Judging my understanding totally changes the subject. The question remains and I've yet to hear anyone answer it.

[suntop321]

@darthfocus If we take this literally, it would mean that women are not allowed to sing in church nor respond when the pastor asks for comments or questions from the congregation. And it would contradict what Paul said in chapter 11, where he said that women could pray and prophesy in church if they had the appropriate attire. Calling you stupid would be an insult to stupid people.

[darthfocus]

@suntop321 You might want to take a class on exposition. The argument isn't over speaking in church. It's over the qualifications for the pastor.

[suntop321]

@darthfocus Are your parents siblings??Have you considered suing your brains for non-support??

[darthfocus]

@suntop321" Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen."

- you might want to search your heart in light of that verse because you clearly are rebelling against it.

- your desire for me reveals the self righteous idol in your heart and underscores your misunderstanding of grace. Finding your wholeness in Jesus rather than personally attacking others would give you rest.

[imno1special]

I formerly believed a female was not to be a pastor according to the Word. But, after a Hermaneutics class @ Calvary Chapel Bible College I understood that Paul was speaking to a cultural dogma not a spiritual one. CC doesn't graduate women as pastors but I believe that outside of the USA, where our western culture carries no weight, CC has no objection. In China the majority of "pastors" at teenage girls. Any believer teaching truth should be heard. God "hates" the practices of Nicolaitans.

[oldschoolstinger]

Sorry it took me so long to respond to your comment. I haven't been on you tube in a while. That surprises me that CCBC would teach this. I go 2 a Calvary Chapel myself. All the CC Pastors I've heard have the same understanding on this issue that I have. 2 the best of my knowledge there are no woman pastors in the Calvary Chapel movement. I may contact CCBC myself & ask their official position. I can't see how Paul is dealing w/ a cultural dogma when discussing the qualifications for Elders.

[oldschoolstinger]

Continued. The point of my video is the qualifications of the office of Elder/Pastor/Overseer/Bishop. Terms that describe the one office. My conclusion from the Bible is that only qualified men can hold that office. So all woman and unqualified men can't. If what is happening in China is true I can give some grace on it because they are a intensely persecuted church. However, the Biblical norm is for qualified men to be Pastors/Elders.

[oldschoolstinger]

I'm not saying woman can't proclaim the gospel or teach the Bible. However, she needs to be under the authority of a Pastor of a local church, just as any man should be. I would encourage you to check out the articles on CARM I suggested at the end of the video. I think they really have a good biblical understanding on this. I'm also going to check into CCBC about what they believe on this issue. Thanks for your comments and God bless you.

[oldschoolstinger]

With only the information you've given to me, I don't see why not. All she's doing is talking about what she learned or heard from another man. The issue here is can a woman be Elders/Pastors. As long as she's not doing that, I don't see a problem.

[natureboy83]

Hey, I haven't listened to you video yet, however, I can share a comment or two. In the 1st century during and following Jesus' death, ALL Christians were ministers, preaching and teaching unbelievers about the Good News of the Kingdom of God, just as Jesus did. However when it came to teaching fellow believers, the brothers, or men, were the ones who took the lead in that regard. This follows the 'headship" pattern described at I Cor. 11:3 where is says that the man is the head of the woman..

[natureboy83]

This doesn't mean that men run all over the women, but the men are to do a I Peter 3:7 says and treat women with respect because they too have the same prize awaiting them in either God's "new heaven and new earth". II Peter 3:13.

[oldschoolstinger]

That's not what I 'm saying either. I'm not anti woman. Woman can serve in the church, just not as Elders/Pastors/Bishops/Oversee­rs, which is the same office. I believe all Christian men & woman are in equal in Christ as Galatians 3 says. However, we all have different roles. The qualifications spelled out in 1 Tim. & Titus would exclude some men as well. Please see the vid & give me your feedback. Thank you for time & interest. God bless!

[oldschoolstinger]

Hello natureboy; thank you for stopping by. I hope you l watch the vid & get your thoughts. I agree w/ you that men & woman were proclaiming the gospel. That's not what I'm dealing with though. I'm dealing specifically with the office of Elder/Pastor & who's qualified to hold it. I'm dealing w/ the qualifications in 1 Tim. 3 & Titus. My desire is to get to the bottom of what the Bible has to say on this issue. Thanks for your contribution. Take care & God bless!

[natureboy83]

No problem..In 1 Tim. 3, the apostle Paul leaves no doubt on who can qualify for the office of overseer or elder. From the NIV it says that to qualify, one needs to be among many things "a HUSBAND of but one wife" and that "HE must manage his own family well." 1st, marriage should be between a man and woman. Therefore, a man (husband) should only have one wife and he is the head of the family, responsible for all the FINAL decisions made there in. True christian women would not marry (con't)

[natureboy83]

woman because it goes against God's will for marriage.

[natureboy83]

And Titus 1, Paul repeats "a husband of but one wife." You are correct: only men who MEET the qualifications for overseer or elder can serve in that position. And since women cannot meet certain requirements, they can't serve as an elder. I'm not being dogmatic nor am I sexist, the Scriptures speak for themselves.

[eiffuy]

I have a question... What about repeating information developed and initially given by male leaders.

For example, I expound on a passage in the bible (as a man), and a woman heard it. Does she not have the right to communicate the same thoughts and ideas to another?

[oldschoolstinger]

Hello, and thank you for checking out my video. I'd be grateful for your feedback. Positive or Negative. If you think I'm wrong & can show me from scripture, I like to know. Thank you & God bless.