Well admittedly if you google "God is limited by his word" gives zero results
the the notion without some qualification sort of makes me cringe too - I should qualify it by saying that I dont think it limits God for us to hold him at his word - to believe it - to know that he wont change. You are right that we will never know everything about him - but what we do know about his character in the scriptures we can believe is true without a doubt - take care...
I recanted on the "fully aware" already :-) "How is the killing of a human being expressly or impliedly inconsistent with GOD's character? Actually, now that you mention it, IT'S NOT."
Interesting that you desire that I quote other "scholars" and google for advice rather than sharing my own thoughts. I read and study, but don't necessarily adopt everything that I read...and I read scholars from both sides, not boycotting MacArthurs OR Bells.
Many a man unknowingly defines God by his theology.
I am fully aware of the Messianic nature of the Abraham story. I'm also aware that Abraham stepped outside of the moral Law that had been handed down through the generations because, as you mentioned, he believed God. "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness (Gen. 15:6; James 2:23)." For His glory, Abraham held God in the highest esteem possible. I strive to do the same.
One point at a time - A pivotal doctrine in systematic theology is to let scripture interpret scripture (and I havent even started on supporting extrinsic academic material yet) - so how on earth do you evidence your proposition that Gods command to Abraham is either expressly or impliedly inconsistent with his character? Clearly Heb. 11:17-19 contradicts your version of Abrahams subjective reasoning at this command.
So, because Abraham "REASONED" that God could raise the dead, he moved forward and willingly raised the knife above his son of promise, intent on killing him as God had commanded? Yes! Exactly that! Trusting GOD above his own human understanding of morality and mortality.
How is the killing of a human being expressly or impliedly inconsistent with GOD's character? Actually, now that you mention it, IT'S NOT. According to Scripture, God has killed and commanded the killing of men, women, children, animals... We DO know of God's earlier response to man killing man as revealed in the account of Cain and Abel. We also know of God's "thou shalt not" when referring to murder a short time after.
So, it seems that if God commands the death, it's Scripturally supported, but if He doesn't, Scripture commands against it. WAIT A MINUTE! That means that God's spoken word usurps God's written word, again positioning God above the Scriptures.
Your "pivotal doctrine" in "systematic theology" is a man-made-design for striving to understand the Scriptures in hopes of better understanding God...a noble effort, no doubt, and one that I engage in regularly. Still, I propose that God is FAR larger than the Scriptures, and man's interpretation is, without doubt, fallible.
Again, the Scriptures are not intended to DEFINE God, but reveal God's interaction with his creation...namely, mankind. If all that could be known of God were written down, I suppose there wouldn't be room enough in all the world to contain the volumes...
Of course mans understanding of God's infinite being is infallible and theology does not attempt in any way to define him - in stead of resorting to straw men, why don't you quote some reliable academic material to support your propositions?
I didnt "mention" anything like that - Love those straw man arguments dont you! You said "FULLY AWARE that putting his own son to death would go against Gods character" but we see this is not what he "Reasoned" at all Heb.11:19 - we see that he "reckoned" (greek Logizamai)or accounted that God was able to raise him from the dead - at least maintain some consistency and try and confine your responses to the fact in issue.
In John 1:1-4, Word refers to Jesus, not to the Holy Scriptures. We've no right to take the Scriptures out of context to support our own agendas.
Know this, God's spoken word (i.e. the Scriptures) IS truth, but God Himself is NOT bound by it. Were He bound by it, He is no longer God, but is subject to the Scriptures. God handed "down" His word to mankind, and on occasion, asked individuals to act contrary to that which He handed down.
Own agenda?Ps 89-34 by His own decree He is bound by His Word. 1st Cent. Jewish author of great significance Philo-Judaeus wrote extensively on prominent themes in Johns Gospel and Pauls epistles particularly GOD AND HIS WORD ARE ONE. The first English Bible manuscripts by John Wycliffe Oxford professor scholar theologian expounded in his book Of the Truth of Holy Scripture GOD AND HIS WORD ARE ONE and said CHRIST HIMSELF is IN the Scriptures AND TO BE IGNORANT OF THEM IS TO BE IGNORANT OF HIM
How can God not be bound by his own word if it must be met first? Surely we can say in order to act consistently with Himself, and with His Holy Word and that because he is Truth and truth flows from his nature they are inseparable?
WORD is a term used by theologians and philosophers both Jews and Greeks in many different ways and accordingly applying the construction human Logos at the exclusion of the written Logos is meaningless. If scripture is a part of the mind of Christ (1Cor2:16) It expresses the mind of God because God and his Word are one in fact in Hebrew thought the Word was another expression for God. Gods very integrity means that God and His Word are one like you and your word are one if you have integrity
How do you explain the issues that I brought up in the earlier discussion (you referred to it saying, 'which looks like it has been dealt with ad nauseam') regarding God's interaction with Abraham, Hosea, Isaiah, and Peter? Did God not actually request these acts of them? If not, then Scripture is inaccurate. If so, God moved above (on a different plain than) His own Word. These types of things are what I'm referring to. Again, it's not to lessen the Scriptures, but to exalt God as being...
How do I explain it? - like I would explain it to a 2 year old - You place such a high premium on context yet, for starters, your "Abraham" rationale is just plain stupid - you should pay more attention to the messianic expectation of the resurrection- Abraham knew what God had promised and it is manifestly obvious that Abraham himself believed in the resurrection; his expectation of returning together with Isaac after sacrificing his son implies this hope (Gen. 22:5; cf. Heb. 11:17-19).
the creator, 'breath-er', and 'potter' of the Words. I do understand the "one-ness" of God and His Word that you are speaking of, and to a degree, I agree. However, in the manner that I believe you understand it, God becomes the lesser...not allowed to move and act as GOD. Think of this: the OT was came first. Those that 'understood' it (Sadduccees/Pharisees) would not accept God acting/moving outside of THEIR understanding. So, they held Him to His Word and killed Him. Are we not fallible?
No friend if you understand "One-ness" you understand that it shares it's traits with pantheism. Please support your propositions with scolarly references (Heretics and others such as Rob Bell are illadvised)
Cupcake? Interesting choice...likely revealing the unfortunate 'reality' that you claim will do you 'fine'. For clarity sake, what is your 'reality', and how does it differ from the 'dream' (a term simply used as a literary device, not referring to a literal dream) that is described within the video? If you're interested in conversing, that's great...but if your comment was simply a jab from cyberspace, I understand you not replying.
Come now, you cant hold true to your relativistic emergent philosophy and summaraily judge other peoples reality as "unfortunate". If the fact that emergent types make me want to gag is a part of my reality and it works for me, then thats ok - isn't that how it works?
I don't hold to a "relativistic emergent philosophy", and, contrary to numerous misconceptions, neither to the majority that may refer to themselves as "emergent". Anyone that has taken the time to visit the gatherings of and converse with emergent theologians knows that "emergent" types are no more "relative" in their theology than "evangelical" types. Typically, Emergents are simply more willing to discuss the possibility that some church doctrines/beliefs are not Biblically supported.
I know of the doctrines that you talk about and I submit it is a contemptable thing what your movement is doing - you are enemies of the cross. I hope you, the Bells, Jones' and the Mclarens of this world truly repent and find true salvation
I openly invite you to pick the video apart :-) Just as I've invited others, all that I ask is that you support, Biblically, any heretical statements that you believe you hear within the video. Odds are EXTREMELY high that you (as has been the case with many others that I've conversed with) will not be able to find any discontinuity between what I share and what the Scriptures teach UNLESS you take my comments out of context. Regardless, the invitation is open!
500 words doesn't allow such a synopsis suffice to say that if you dont even understand the relationship between God and his word (which looks like it has been dealt with ad nauseam)- you disqualify yourself from even opening your mouth subsequently, this video doesnt need to be picked apart - it totally falls apart, - it is nothing short of just plain dopey
It's an unfortunate truth that many evangelical Christians are quick to rebuke and slow to actually engage and converse about God and the Scriptures. I leave you with a standing invitation...
Interesting. He who defends bears the obligation or burden of proof? Ridiculous. You've not shared with me any heretical statements in need of defense, therefore I'm not obligated.
Start then with the proposition that God is above his word. If this is true he can ammend/recind what he says ad lib (like Allah). To believe God is to accept what God says as true - period. If you say, "I believe in God," but you do not believe what God says in the Holy Scriptures, then you do not really believe God. God and His Word ARE ONE (John 1:1-4). If you believe God, you will believe and obey His Word. If you do not believe what God says, it is God Himself you are rejecting.
I appreciate the compliment! If there is a community that is truly making a difference for the Kingdom of God, Mars Hill in Michigan is definitely one of those communities!
"Please share with me,from a Scriptural standpoint,any doctrinal heresies within this video.I'm open to correction"
1.Holding God above His Word 2.Finding commonality with homosexuals and bisexuals "at the cross" 3.Rejecting the fact that not all are teachers. 4.Your definition of "saved" 5.God does not dream. I will take the 1st one right now, God hold His word higher than His name Psa 138:2 God cannot be separated from His word on any level,"Word was God" also read PS. 119 .......
It's exciting to see that someone is ACTUALLY turning to the Scriptures! There's hardly anything better than getting to converse and learn alongside one another in this way! I'll likely have to use a few comments to respond since we're limited to 500 words per comment...and we may ultimately be better off using our "mail" feature...we'll have to see.
Please know that my statement, "I dreamt of a faith community where the Bible was held in high esteem, but God was held even higher," is not meant to negate the value of the Scriptures. Both are held in high esteem, but without question, I believe that God is to be held highest. More on that in a moment. Please know also that your reference to John 1 (...the Word was God...) is referring to Jesus as the Word, and is NOT referring to the Scriptures.
I'm assuming you're reading from either the (N)KJV or ASV: "I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name (KJV)."
Not that I'm advocating one translation over another, but it is worth noting that there are other translations (not just paraphrases) of the Scriptures that do not say, '...for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name,' but translate it, '...you have exalted above all things your name and your word (NIV),' or '...You have magnified Your word according to all Your name (NASV).' According to the purpose of your argument (to refute my statement), these differences could prove significant.
Rather than getting into the Hebrew of the Scriptures, as I trust the numerous teams of scholars that translated the NKJV and the NASB (differently, I might add) have, let's examine some other Scriptures and Scriptural principles, and actually look at a couple of Biblical characters that I believe held God in higher esteem than the Scriptures:
1. Abraham -- In Genesis 22 (pre-written Law), Abraham, fully aware that putting his own son to death would go against God's character and the known moral laws (consider God's response to Cain), takes his son of promise, Isaac, to sacrifice him because God told him to.
2. Consider Hosea -- God said, "Go, take to yourself a wife of harlotry and have children of harlotry; for the land commits flagrant harlotry, forsaking the LORD." I can see it now...Hosea: "Mom, God told me to marry a harlot." Mom: "The Scriptures are VERY CLEAR about this, son! God would NEVER ask you to do such a thing!" And yet, there it is, in one of the canonized books of the Bible.
Though the woman should have been put to death in accordance with the Law (Lev. 20:10), God tells Hosea to do differently...to bring her back into his home. Had Hosea held God's Word higher than God Himself, this never would have taken place.
3. Nakedness was a shameful thing according the Scriptures, and yet God tells his servant, Isaiah, to expose himself for 3 years as a sign (Isaiah 20). ??????????
4. How about Peter? "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat." "Surely not, Lord!" See, Peter knew that God's Word said not to eat those sorts of things, nor to hang with those sorts of people...and yet, God was telling him to do JUST THAT! Thankfully, God IS higher than His the Scriptures...and we're redeemed.
You see, if what you are claiming is true, then God has built around Himself a prison (the Scriptures) that He Himself (the creator) cannot escape. And what's worse is that mankind has altered, manipulated, and interpreted the prison (the Scriptures) to his own design, thus making God a slave to his greatest creation, mankind. If it is the Scriptures that are the greater, then God has become the lesser...and is no longer God.
As for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.
Oh, I also want to add that this "emerging" church is definately NOT the true Body of Christ. A seperated people UNTO God and his word. This is definately a dream indeed and not the church that Jesus bought with his Own blood that those who believe in Him would no longer live for themselves but for the one who died and rose from the dead for them. The True Bride of Christ!
The offer still stands if you're interested in discussing from a Scriptural perspective any inconsistencies within the video. However, based on this most recent post, I get the feeling that you have a pre-established posture, positioning yourself against any that may refer to themselves as an "emerging" community. I'll willingly place to the side the "emerging" label if you'll willingly discuss Scripture :-)
If my facial expressions seem to you to equal 'I'm lying,' then I confess that I'm thankful to know a God that does not judge the outward appearance, but the heart ;-) Please share with me, from a Scriptural standpoint, any doctrinal heresies within this video. I'm open to correction and instruction in the event that you uncover any areas within which my words swim against the current of God's Truth as revealed in Scripture. And thanks for the "eyes" insight...I'll work on it ;-)
I'm not gonna argue on here butI see your dream to be a "community" who live in their sins without being convicted by the holy word of God. No, you'll want the people to make up their own interpretations of what God has already established as truth. You can't hold God higher than his word cuz he clearly said that he holds his own word higher than his name. It's obvious to people who know the truth that you and this community will be preaching another gospel of another Jesus.
I find it very interesting, yet discouraging, that you've already decided to "interpret" for yourself what this "community" would be like. Whether you realize it or not, what you "know" of God's Word is a man's interpretation, be it your own or one who has instructed you. You've listened to various interpretations (a pastor's/an author's/etc.), weighed it against your own interpretation, and drawn conclusions that you believe to be "what God has already established as truth."
Well Jesus whas seen as a heretic and martin luther to of those that thought that power and tradition give them right to call them self children of god and judge others as unclean i gods eyes.
I appreciate your comment, and it makes me wonder if Luther's and Jesus' accusers were as silent as mine have been when I've asked them to Biblically support and point out specific heretical statements within my video without taking me out of context. I've opened the conversation up to each of my "accusers", but as of yet, none of them are willing to engage in such a dialogue. It's a privilege to be counted a heretic along with Jesus, Luther, and countless others! Thanks again ;-)
I'm more interested in how you believe verse 5 has to do with the "Dreaming" video? Specifically, if you're able, please share how God's power is denied within the dialog of the video. It's VERY likely that you've misinterpreted various statements, taking them out of context...I would be more than happy to clarify if you would provide your feedback.
Wow Paul did know what he was talking about 1950 years ago.
Verse 9 is the most telling......
5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.
it's kinda scary that the thought of sinner gathered at the foot of the cross could not be a beautiful thing. I think this "dream" with the Gospel could change the world
It's scary that the thought of sinners (the sin doesn't matter) gathered at the foot of the cross. We're not there... so maybe some rethinking is required. Questioning is not heretical it's responsible. Jesus is the only way thats why we are gathered at the foot of the cross.
Close your eyes and dream. Dream of a church that is no longer bound by truth or morals. Dream of a church that becomes a syncretistic blend of various belief systems. Dream of a church that would be popular with the world and never be persecuted. Dream of a church that is no longer Christian! Wow man! These guys are so hip!
I'd like to offer you the same opportunity that I've offered many... Please share with me, from a Scriptural standpoint, any doctrinal heresies within this video. Upon further investigation, you'll likely find that you simply jumped to conclusions and took my words out of context. I am, however, open to correction and instruction in the event that you uncover any areas that my words swim against the current of God's Truth as revealed in Scripture.
Diamond: You know very well that there is no space here for a thorough biblical analysis of your movement. Start your study by reading the neutral article on Wikipedia regarding the emerging church. Then read the critiques reccommended in the article. Be sure to read Carson, Erickson, Smith, Kowalski, and Moreland. Please inform yourself before you regret your alliance with this heretical, antinomian group of chameleons who speak out of both sides of their mouths.
Why assume I'm aligned with the Emerging church? I use "emerging" and "church" in the search knowing that more individuals will happen upon the video. You believe I'm united with this movement, thus, I must be a heretic. There are heretics in EVERY denomination and movement...we should filter their teaching through God's Word rather than through our preconceived notions of whatever "group" we lump them into. I'm open to Scripturally based rebuke and instruction, but please, no pigeon-holing.
Diamond you are quite uninformed. Heretics in Evangelical denominations lose their credentials. The Emerging Church Movement Stands for heresy and antinomianism. Please inform yourself.
You really can't be as ignorant as you sound. Do some reading. The truth is out there but you have to educate yourself. You should have done this before making this video.
The doctrines of the deity of Christ, the blood atonement, salvation by faith, and judgment are essential. Emergents would have us throw these things out of the window to be "nice." These are cowards who would have us conform to the world's beliefs and standards so that the world will like us. Shame on them for this compromise and shame on them for such misleading propaganda as this ridiculous video!
I'd like to offer you the same opportunity that I've offered many... Please share with me, from a Scriptural standpoint, any doctrinal heresies within this video. Upon further investigation, you'll likely find that you simply jumped to conclusions and took my words out of context. I am, however, open to correction and instruction in the event that you uncover any areas that my words swim against the current of God's Truth as revealed in Scripture.
My use of the phrase, "Let's call it 'God's Dream'," is simply a metaphorical way of saying that I believe God would be pleased if His people would come together in this manner... John 17
yea we can have a "conversation" but first let me ask you a few questions. Do you believe that the bible is inerrant? Second do you believe in absolute truth?
i have talked with many an emergent or better yet a postmodern(er).. but i digress...this will obviously eat up some space so if you like go to my profile and send me a message... i would like to dialogue
he says that the bible is held in high esteem but God is held higher...well even God holds his word higher than himself...how would they know this? maybe dave should read it before talking abou it. this guy is clueless this movement for the most part is anti biblical
Very interesting that you say, "...this guy is clueless this movement for the most part is anti biblical" I would love to hear more from you, and in GREATER BIBLICALLY SUPPORTED DETAIL. I doubt very highly that you'll be able to support Biblically your argument that the movement is anti Biblical unless you're simply misinterpretting what I've shared. I'm open to correction :-)
Where Church people gather to be Unchurched? So is this a place where the Sheep gather to become Goats? Maybe its where the Saved get Unsaved? Or perhaps its where the Found get Lost? Avoid this false teacher!!!
First you have we have to let go of thinking the church is for the "saved" Church is really for those that are not in relationship with Christ. We should gather for the "unchurched" to be exposed to the Love and truth of Christ not until we have tried to LOVE them into the kingdom should we use "laws" or as the bible says the fear of God.. it is a last point we should use not the first. I am glad God used it for you and he can use it for others but not for all!!!
ummm no church is for the "called out" ones.. you know...eccelesia. you cant have church for the world that would defeat the whole purpose of having church. we gather to worship and hear the Word and if unchurched come then cool but church is not for them its for us.
(this the rest of my comment) we are to expose the love of christ by going into the community...they get into a right relationship with God and then they want to come to fellowship. thats how the bible teaches it. how do you love someone into the kingdom? the only way they get into the kingdom is by recogonizing their fallen state...repenting and putting their trust in Jesus.
(ok this is the last part)I would say that all must come to repentance through the law and if you dont then you are coming with a false presupposition and doomed to "backslide" if you even believe of such a thing. not really sure why you are trying to redefine church but i have my hunches.
I'm not sure where you're coming from, exactly. As for why I'm "trying to redefine church," I don't believe that I am. I'm veering away from what many believe that "church" is (an organization established with a doctrinal statement, bi-laws, 501c3, etc.) My goal moreso is to return to Christ's teachings, discarding as unBiblical many divisive and power-based doctrines that the modern evangelical movement clings tightly to. I'm open to Biblically supported correction and conversation.
Lovedbyjesus3 -- I did not mean to offend you. I think part of the church problem reaching people is thinking that people that are living in Sin can not attend church. Personally that is where I want them to be. Your comments were just very direct and kind of hard a soft answer turns away wrath I heard htat some place LOL.
well all i can say dude is keep dreamin cause you aint living in reality. and this dream you keep havin aint gonna be seen without comprimising the bible
Why not? Jesus had sluts, crooks and killers around him and those are only the closest ones to him. If we are to dream the kingdom expanding we need to love all people through and during their sinful choices while saying the truth and His truth will set them free but if they are not in a christ centered community then how will they hear the truth and change?
Jesus Did both snaveybbor -- I fear the day when the church is to holy to have unsaved enter into the doors. God said Love them (emotion) or put the fear (emotion) of God into them. Sounds like God uses emotions to me, that is how I came to know Him by love and happiness!!!
its ok to unsaved enter the doors but dont assume they are part of the body of christ. i came to know him by the law and thats when i saw my need for saving not to make me happy although thats part of it but not in and of itself.
"My people die with out a dream" KEEP the dream as long as God is the center the Dream can only be good and nothing good coems from the enemy!! Dave I have 99% the same dream here in my town in Fl.. Those that are lambbasting you in the name of "god" need to re think their own ego and self importance. God needs us all to bring people into the KINGDOM. DREAM ON!!!!
I totally agree with Alybear91 and with what Peacy says: " TRUTH CAUSES DIVISION not a false unity where everyone can come together and just put truth aside so everyone feels happy. " this what we watched or not even finish watching is a dream, that clearly is not from God,i feel terror for those who dare to even say," its from God "..remenber" do not take the name of GOD in vain "...
Therefore," declares the LORD, "I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me. Yes," declares the LORD, "I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, 'The LORD declares.' Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams," declares the LORD. "They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least," declares the LORD."
They say, 'I had a dream! I had a dream! How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds? ...
Let the prophet who has a dream tell his dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain?" declares the LORD. "Is not my word like fire," declares the LORD, "and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?
The anger of the LORD will not turn back until he fully accomplishes the purposes of his heart. In last days you will understand it clearly. I did not send these prophets, yet they have run with their message; I did not speak to them, yet they have prophesied... I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name.
Jeremiah 23 - "This is what the LORD Almighty says:
"Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD. They keep saying to those who despise me, 'The LORD says: You will have peace.' And to all who follow the stubbornness of their hearts they say, 'No harm will come to you...
Dave, your vision is not from God. God gives us his truths through deep study and devotion to his word and time in prayer... not through some mental idea that pops in your head while doing nothing. While your vision may in a way sound good, its not biblical.
TRUTH CAUSES DIVISION not a false unity where everyone can come together and just put truth aside so everyone feels happy. The body of Christ is unified in CHRIST alone. The center must always be Christ. It's not about some "kingdom experience" but the holy inworking of God through the Holy Spirit in the life of someone spiritually dead.
Calling this God's vision is an abomination. God's "vision" is clearly laid out in the bible, but it's not really a vision at all because the future is already in place, God's will cannot be changed, and there is no vision, only the reality of what He has willed that will come to pass.
If you think there is reason to come together to question truth, you know not truth because when God changes a man he cannot question the existance of God, he cannot escape it because he has been radically altered to hate what God hates and love what God loves. If we come to the cross of Christ we must HATE our sin, and be BROKEN over it. It's not just to recognize our sin but to lament and weep and turn from it in disgust.
Interesting comment. I'm curious as to how you could know that I've not engaged in "deep study and devotion to his word and time in prayer..." Regardless, I'll accept your rebuke in the event that you can share with me from a Biblical perspective (supported with Scripture) where I go astray in the video. I highly doubt that you can support your argument without taking either my comments or God's Word out of context (which I anticipate). I'm open to correction!
Ok NiseyG. I'm sinful. Without the Holy Spirit I am totally depraved. I see that my path lead to distruction and now, because of Christ's atoneing work on the cross, I change direction from my path of sin, toward the righeousness of Christ. I am saved. Diamond, I like your dream. I have dreamed it as well. It comes from the Holy Spirit. Hopefully, it will come true and we can share what Christ has done for us ... and possibly even put a smile on NiseyG's face.
NiseyG ~ The message of the cross is interwoven throughout this entire presentation. Please listen again, and if you desire, outline where you find "heresy" or "the directions to hell" in the video. I appreciate all comments, especially those that take the time and "respond" rather than "react". The honest truth is that at the foot of the cross (as mentioned in the video) we are all forgiven, loved, and accepted. Hell is absent as we gather there, acknowledging all that Christ has done for us.
How can a church or " community " like its called in the video, can have people that believe in Christ or love Christ, yet be living in sin.. God is a Holy God, we know what the Bible says about it, i guess we all know what the Lord says about homosexuality, Just to mention something!
God loves the homosexual not the action but the person the same as He love people that hate people because of thier Sin -- do not throw the first stone friend...
I agree with you in that; God loves the person not their sin, i never said God does not love homosexuals, i said " we know what God says about homozexuality "
God wants everyone to be saved and to be Him, but we must dive in His word as well! If, you read comments below, you will understand better. Be blessed in Christ!
" do not throw the first stone friend... " I am not certainly, for i am not to judge anyone, i have no right and i am not perfect to do so...If you read closely you can see i am not doing what you think i am doing. Blessing! in Christ!
>>But what will your message be? "The Kindgom Life"? Will "you are sinful and God commands you to repent" like Jesus used to say be part of that message?
So that's the summary of a Bible-believer's problems w/ this presentation of a counterfeit of a biblical local church.
Feel free to respond. I will as I get opportunity.
This is not as heretical as I was expecting after having read the comments, but as the guy in the vid implies (not says) if God is behind something, it will bear fruit. This fruit would need to be the fruit Christ describes, so if this church is 1) empty 2) a den of immorality 3) an empty den of immorality, then He is not blessing the ministry. I thought worship was to give glory to God, and was Youtube to express my creativity in a not-unglorifying manner, not the other way around. Silly me!
But praise be to God that ALL OF US can find commonality in forgiveness and newness of life at the foot of the cross. You see, what many seem to overlook is that Jesus came not to CONDEMN, but to provide a way of forgiveness and completeness in Him. I recognize where you're coming from, taking my "at the foot of the cross" comment out of context. I'm not saying that all of "these things" are OK, but rather, that all of us can find forgiveness at the foot of the cross of Jesus.
Interesting comment! I'd love to hear which parts (a few, multiple, all???) of the thought process you feel is "sincerely wrong". The place that I find myself is open to discussion, considering what others may have to share, and sincerely considering their thoughts. So, let me know! I'm curious, are you open to considering other's thoughts as well, or have you arrived at your conclusions to conversations far before the conversations begin?
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of G-d? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
But praise be to God that ALL OF US can find commonality in forgiveness and newness of life at the foot of the cross. You see, what many seem to overlook is that Jesus came not to CONDEMN, but to provide a way of forgiveness and completeness in Him. I recognize where you're coming from, taking my "at the foot of the cross" comment out of context. I'm not saying that all of "these things" are OK, but rather, that all of us can find forgiveness at the foot of the cross of Jesus.
Oh, absolutely! But first one MUST repent! Just like Jesus told the adulterous woman, 'Go and sin no more'. It is a lie that you can live as you wish and enter heaven. The other thing that I'd like to point out is that the 1st time, Jesus came as the Lamb of G-d. The 2nd time He comes, He will be recognized as King of Kings and L-rd of Lords! Scripture says that it will be so terrifying that people will scream for the mountains to fall on them...
Interesteing, especially considering the fact that the adulturous woman never repented. "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way, and from now on do not sin again."
Yes, you are correct that all may come. The problem enters when people believe that they can hold on to their sin AND Jesus. That is not true. There is forgiveness for all people but first one MUST repent. Jesus told the woman at the well, 'go and sin no more'.
Where is the repentance in this story? This just shows that we have lost the true meaning of metanoia (translated as repentance), which means "to change one's mind or purpose." This has a thoughtful component, meta (with) noiew (deep thought). Make sure that, if you read and support arguments with scripture, you actually read ALL of it. Repentance is not confession, it is a thoughtful change in mind or purpose.
Jesus will not come back as the Lamb of G-d; no. No underfed, sickly looking, Englishman that has been portrayed in the movies. No, He will be amazing to behold. So much so, read Revelation 6:15-17. The KING IS coming! Who will be able to stand?
You could tell that I smoked a doobie before shooting this!?! You're perceptive...very perceptive! (KIDDING!!!) I suppose people that voice what's going on in their heads and hearts run the risk of being poked fun at...but I'm OK with that ;-) Poke away!
Interestingly, I've been running across many in my travels that are having the same dream, but struggle in communicating it for fear of rejection and being labeled heretical or "sincerely wrong" (see killerbeeee's response) ;-) Dream, dream, dream!!!
Dave that is no way to hold the Bible in high esteem, the truth is not hinged on collective responses by the community, but rather the truth was nailed to the Cross and the preaching of the Cross brings about the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. Why do you want to question that?
Jude 1:8 Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. NASB
Bororean ~ I in no way question the truth that the message of the cross presents, rather, I EMBRACE it and RECEIVE and ACCEPT the FORGIVENESS that it represents. I DO question the manner in which some present this Truth, as well as the content of many of the messenger's messages...because I believe that many of the messenger's messages present far more Law (a new evangelical law) and very little Truth (see: Sadduccees and Pharisees).
You said quote: "The explanation of the truth, or God's Word, the Bible didn't hinge on any one person's the buck stops here preaching, but rather on creative teaching and the community's collective responses and thoughts on the matter where people are free to think, to think of questions and to question the answers."
You say you don't question the Truth, but your double talk reveals a doctrine that is being tossed too and fro by every wind.
Where do you go for the Truth? The Bible? Me too. Do you see any hint of "doubletalk" in your philosophy? For anyone to ever have come to any conclusions regarding spiritual matters, one has had to think...and in thinking, we're questioning...and whenever we draw a conclusion, I certainly hope that the questioning and learning doesn't stop there, because though we may be sincere in what we believe, we may be sincerely WRONG. And so, for me, the conversations continue...as does the learning.
I agree. What would it be like if all churches actually put into practice these two ideas: 1) Love God with all you've got, and 2) Love and look after everybody as much as you love and look after yourself???
"God and His Word are one" Depending on how you understand this statement, I agree.
"God is above His Word" Depending on how you understand this statement, I agree.
"God transcends His Word" Depending on how you understand this statement, I agree.
"God is not limited by His Word" Depending on how you understand this statement, I agree.
diamondd73 3 years ago
Well admittedly if you google "God is limited by his word" gives zero results
the the notion without some qualification sort of makes me cringe too - I should qualify it by saying that I dont think it limits God for us to hold him at his word - to believe it - to know that he wont change. You are right that we will never know everything about him - but what we do know about his character in the scriptures we can believe is true without a doubt - take care...
lahridon2000 3 years ago
I recanted on the "fully aware" already :-) "How is the killing of a human being expressly or impliedly inconsistent with GOD's character? Actually, now that you mention it, IT'S NOT."
Interesting that you desire that I quote other "scholars" and google for advice rather than sharing my own thoughts. I read and study, but don't necessarily adopt everything that I read...and I read scholars from both sides, not boycotting MacArthurs OR Bells.
Many a man unknowingly defines God by his theology.
diamondd73 3 years ago
Just for a laugh Google these:
"God and his word are one" - 2770 results pretty much all in the affirmative;
"God is above his word" - 3 results (John Wimber LOL - lunatic fringe agrees with you!!)
"God transcends his word" - 3 results
"God is not limited by his word" - 5 results
lahridon2000 3 years ago
I am fully aware of the Messianic nature of the Abraham story. I'm also aware that Abraham stepped outside of the moral Law that had been handed down through the generations because, as you mentioned, he believed God. "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness (Gen. 15:6; James 2:23)." For His glory, Abraham held God in the highest esteem possible. I strive to do the same.
Hosea? Isaiah? Peter?
diamondd73 3 years ago
One point at a time - A pivotal doctrine in systematic theology is to let scripture interpret scripture (and I havent even started on supporting extrinsic academic material yet) - so how on earth do you evidence your proposition that Gods command to Abraham is either expressly or impliedly inconsistent with his character? Clearly Heb. 11:17-19 contradicts your version of Abrahams subjective reasoning at this command.
lahridon2000 3 years ago
So, because Abraham "REASONED" that God could raise the dead, he moved forward and willingly raised the knife above his son of promise, intent on killing him as God had commanded? Yes! Exactly that! Trusting GOD above his own human understanding of morality and mortality.
diamondd73 3 years ago
How is the killing of a human being expressly or impliedly inconsistent with GOD's character? Actually, now that you mention it, IT'S NOT. According to Scripture, God has killed and commanded the killing of men, women, children, animals... We DO know of God's earlier response to man killing man as revealed in the account of Cain and Abel. We also know of God's "thou shalt not" when referring to murder a short time after.
diamondd73 3 years ago
So, it seems that if God commands the death, it's Scripturally supported, but if He doesn't, Scripture commands against it. WAIT A MINUTE! That means that God's spoken word usurps God's written word, again positioning God above the Scriptures.
diamondd73 3 years ago
Your "pivotal doctrine" in "systematic theology" is a man-made-design for striving to understand the Scriptures in hopes of better understanding God...a noble effort, no doubt, and one that I engage in regularly. Still, I propose that God is FAR larger than the Scriptures, and man's interpretation is, without doubt, fallible.
diamondd73 3 years ago
Again, the Scriptures are not intended to DEFINE God, but reveal God's interaction with his creation...namely, mankind. If all that could be known of God were written down, I suppose there wouldn't be room enough in all the world to contain the volumes...
diamondd73 3 years ago
Of course mans understanding of God's infinite being is infallible and theology does not attempt in any way to define him - in stead of resorting to straw men, why don't you quote some reliable academic material to support your propositions?
lahridon2000 3 years ago
If God spoke and it was not accordingly written then how did you find out about it?
lahridon2000 3 years ago
I didnt "mention" anything like that - Love those straw man arguments dont you! You said "FULLY AWARE that putting his own son to death would go against Gods character" but we see this is not what he "Reasoned" at all Heb.11:19 - we see that he "reckoned" (greek Logizamai)or accounted that God was able to raise him from the dead - at least maintain some consistency and try and confine your responses to the fact in issue.
lahridon2000 3 years ago
In John 1:1-4, Word refers to Jesus, not to the Holy Scriptures. We've no right to take the Scriptures out of context to support our own agendas.
Know this, God's spoken word (i.e. the Scriptures) IS truth, but God Himself is NOT bound by it. Were He bound by it, He is no longer God, but is subject to the Scriptures. God handed "down" His word to mankind, and on occasion, asked individuals to act contrary to that which He handed down.
I hold the Scriptures VERY high...but God is God.
diamondd73 3 years ago
Own agenda?Ps 89-34 by His own decree He is bound by His Word. 1st Cent. Jewish author of great significance Philo-Judaeus wrote extensively on prominent themes in Johns Gospel and Pauls epistles particularly GOD AND HIS WORD ARE ONE. The first English Bible manuscripts by John Wycliffe Oxford professor scholar theologian expounded in his book Of the Truth of Holy Scripture GOD AND HIS WORD ARE ONE and said CHRIST HIMSELF is IN the Scriptures AND TO BE IGNORANT OF THEM IS TO BE IGNORANT OF HIM
lahridon2000 3 years ago
How can God not be bound by his own word if it must be met first? Surely we can say in order to act consistently with Himself, and with His Holy Word and that because he is Truth and truth flows from his nature they are inseparable?
lahridon2000 3 years ago
WORD is a term used by theologians and philosophers both Jews and Greeks in many different ways and accordingly applying the construction human Logos at the exclusion of the written Logos is meaningless. If scripture is a part of the mind of Christ (1Cor2:16) It expresses the mind of God because God and his Word are one in fact in Hebrew thought the Word was another expression for God. Gods very integrity means that God and His Word are one like you and your word are one if you have integrity
lahridon2000 3 years ago
How do you explain the issues that I brought up in the earlier discussion (you referred to it saying, 'which looks like it has been dealt with ad nauseam') regarding God's interaction with Abraham, Hosea, Isaiah, and Peter? Did God not actually request these acts of them? If not, then Scripture is inaccurate. If so, God moved above (on a different plain than) His own Word. These types of things are what I'm referring to. Again, it's not to lessen the Scriptures, but to exalt God as being...
diamondd73 3 years ago
How do I explain it? - like I would explain it to a 2 year old - You place such a high premium on context yet, for starters, your "Abraham" rationale is just plain stupid - you should pay more attention to the messianic expectation of the resurrection- Abraham knew what God had promised and it is manifestly obvious that Abraham himself believed in the resurrection; his expectation of returning together with Isaac after sacrificing his son implies this hope (Gen. 22:5; cf. Heb. 11:17-19).
lahridon2000 3 years ago
the creator, 'breath-er', and 'potter' of the Words. I do understand the "one-ness" of God and His Word that you are speaking of, and to a degree, I agree. However, in the manner that I believe you understand it, God becomes the lesser...not allowed to move and act as GOD. Think of this: the OT was came first. Those that 'understood' it (Sadduccees/Pharisees) would not accept God acting/moving outside of THEIR understanding. So, they held Him to His Word and killed Him. Are we not fallible?
diamondd73 3 years ago
No friend if you understand "One-ness" you understand that it shares it's traits with pantheism. Please support your propositions with scolarly references (Heretics and others such as Rob Bell are illadvised)
lahridon2000 3 years ago
You stay in your dreams cupcake - reality will do me fine
lahridon2000 3 years ago
Cupcake? Interesting choice...likely revealing the unfortunate 'reality' that you claim will do you 'fine'. For clarity sake, what is your 'reality', and how does it differ from the 'dream' (a term simply used as a literary device, not referring to a literal dream) that is described within the video? If you're interested in conversing, that's great...but if your comment was simply a jab from cyberspace, I understand you not replying.
diamondd73 3 years ago
Come now, you cant hold true to your relativistic emergent philosophy and summaraily judge other peoples reality as "unfortunate". If the fact that emergent types make me want to gag is a part of my reality and it works for me, then thats ok - isn't that how it works?
lahridon2000 3 years ago
I don't hold to a "relativistic emergent philosophy", and, contrary to numerous misconceptions, neither to the majority that may refer to themselves as "emergent". Anyone that has taken the time to visit the gatherings of and converse with emergent theologians knows that "emergent" types are no more "relative" in their theology than "evangelical" types. Typically, Emergents are simply more willing to discuss the possibility that some church doctrines/beliefs are not Biblically supported.
diamondd73 3 years ago
I know of the doctrines that you talk about and I submit it is a contemptable thing what your movement is doing - you are enemies of the cross. I hope you, the Bells, Jones' and the Mclarens of this world truly repent and find true salvation
lahridon2000 3 years ago
I openly invite you to pick the video apart :-) Just as I've invited others, all that I ask is that you support, Biblically, any heretical statements that you believe you hear within the video. Odds are EXTREMELY high that you (as has been the case with many others that I've conversed with) will not be able to find any discontinuity between what I share and what the Scriptures teach UNLESS you take my comments out of context. Regardless, the invitation is open!
diamondd73 3 years ago
500 words doesn't allow such a synopsis suffice to say that if you dont even understand the relationship between God and his word (which looks like it has been dealt with ad nauseam)- you disqualify yourself from even opening your mouth subsequently, this video doesnt need to be picked apart - it totally falls apart, - it is nothing short of just plain dopey
lahridon2000 3 years ago
It's an unfortunate truth that many evangelical Christians are quick to rebuke and slow to actually engage and converse about God and the Scriptures. I leave you with a standing invitation...
diamondd73 3 years ago
On the contrary, he who asserts bears the onus of proof....
lahridon2000 3 years ago
Interesting. He who defends bears the obligation or burden of proof? Ridiculous. You've not shared with me any heretical statements in need of defense, therefore I'm not obligated.
diamondd73 3 years ago
Start then with the proposition that God is above his word. If this is true he can ammend/recind what he says ad lib (like Allah). To believe God is to accept what God says as true - period. If you say, "I believe in God," but you do not believe what God says in the Holy Scriptures, then you do not really believe God. God and His Word ARE ONE (John 1:1-4). If you believe God, you will believe and obey His Word. If you do not believe what God says, it is God Himself you are rejecting.
lahridon2000 3 years ago
Is this Rob Bell Jr.?
diligentile 3 years ago
I appreciate the compliment! If there is a community that is truly making a difference for the Kingdom of God, Mars Hill in Michigan is definitely one of those communities!
diamondd73 3 years ago
Dave,
Our old conversation between you and me and AB Dada on p43 of your blog is no longer available. Did it go down?
Do you have that page perchance on archive?
Rhology 3 years ago
"Please share with me,from a Scriptural standpoint,any doctrinal heresies within this video.I'm open to correction"
1.Holding God above His Word 2.Finding commonality with homosexuals and bisexuals "at the cross" 3.Rejecting the fact that not all are teachers. 4.Your definition of "saved" 5.God does not dream. I will take the 1st one right now, God hold His word higher than His name Psa 138:2 God cannot be separated from His word on any level,"Word was God" also read PS. 119 .......
ericdraws 3 years ago
It's exciting to see that someone is ACTUALLY turning to the Scriptures! There's hardly anything better than getting to converse and learn alongside one another in this way! I'll likely have to use a few comments to respond since we're limited to 500 words per comment...and we may ultimately be better off using our "mail" feature...we'll have to see.
diamondd73 3 years ago
Please know that my statement, "I dreamt of a faith community where the Bible was held in high esteem, but God was held even higher," is not meant to negate the value of the Scriptures. Both are held in high esteem, but without question, I believe that God is to be held highest. More on that in a moment. Please know also that your reference to John 1 (...the Word was God...) is referring to Jesus as the Word, and is NOT referring to the Scriptures.
diamondd73 3 years ago
I'm assuming you're reading from either the (N)KJV or ASV: "I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name (KJV)."
diamondd73 3 years ago
Not that I'm advocating one translation over another, but it is worth noting that there are other translations (not just paraphrases) of the Scriptures that do not say, '...for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name,' but translate it, '...you have exalted above all things your name and your word (NIV),' or '...You have magnified Your word according to all Your name (NASV).' According to the purpose of your argument (to refute my statement), these differences could prove significant.
diamondd73 3 years ago
Rather than getting into the Hebrew of the Scriptures, as I trust the numerous teams of scholars that translated the NKJV and the NASB (differently, I might add) have, let's examine some other Scriptures and Scriptural principles, and actually look at a couple of Biblical characters that I believe held God in higher esteem than the Scriptures:
diamondd73 3 years ago
1. Abraham -- In Genesis 22 (pre-written Law), Abraham, fully aware that putting his own son to death would go against God's character and the known moral laws (consider God's response to Cain), takes his son of promise, Isaac, to sacrifice him because God told him to.
diamondd73 3 years ago
2. Consider Hosea -- God said, "Go, take to yourself a wife of harlotry and have children of harlotry; for the land commits flagrant harlotry, forsaking the LORD." I can see it now...Hosea: "Mom, God told me to marry a harlot." Mom: "The Scriptures are VERY CLEAR about this, son! God would NEVER ask you to do such a thing!" And yet, there it is, in one of the canonized books of the Bible.
diamondd73 3 years ago
Though the woman should have been put to death in accordance with the Law (Lev. 20:10), God tells Hosea to do differently...to bring her back into his home. Had Hosea held God's Word higher than God Himself, this never would have taken place.
diamondd73 3 years ago
3. Nakedness was a shameful thing according the Scriptures, and yet God tells his servant, Isaiah, to expose himself for 3 years as a sign (Isaiah 20). ??????????
4. How about Peter? "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat." "Surely not, Lord!" See, Peter knew that God's Word said not to eat those sorts of things, nor to hang with those sorts of people...and yet, God was telling him to do JUST THAT! Thankfully, God IS higher than His the Scriptures...and we're redeemed.
diamondd73 3 years ago
You see, if what you are claiming is true, then God has built around Himself a prison (the Scriptures) that He Himself (the creator) cannot escape. And what's worse is that mankind has altered, manipulated, and interpreted the prison (the Scriptures) to his own design, thus making God a slave to his greatest creation, mankind. If it is the Scriptures that are the greater, then God has become the lesser...and is no longer God.
As for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.
diamondd73 3 years ago
Oh, I also want to add that this "emerging" church is definately NOT the true Body of Christ. A seperated people UNTO God and his word. This is definately a dream indeed and not the church that Jesus bought with his Own blood that those who believe in Him would no longer live for themselves but for the one who died and rose from the dead for them. The True Bride of Christ!
maemae1979 4 years ago
The offer still stands if you're interested in discussing from a Scriptural perspective any inconsistencies within the video. However, based on this most recent post, I get the feeling that you have a pre-established posture, positioning yourself against any that may refer to themselves as an "emerging" community. I'll willingly place to the side the "emerging" label if you'll willingly discuss Scripture :-)
diamondd73 4 years ago
Is this real?? His facial expressions equal - I'm lying.
maemae1979 4 years ago
If my facial expressions seem to you to equal 'I'm lying,' then I confess that I'm thankful to know a God that does not judge the outward appearance, but the heart ;-) Please share with me, from a Scriptural standpoint, any doctrinal heresies within this video. I'm open to correction and instruction in the event that you uncover any areas within which my words swim against the current of God's Truth as revealed in Scripture. And thanks for the "eyes" insight...I'll work on it ;-)
diamondd73 4 years ago
I'm not gonna argue on here butI see your dream to be a "community" who live in their sins without being convicted by the holy word of God. No, you'll want the people to make up their own interpretations of what God has already established as truth. You can't hold God higher than his word cuz he clearly said that he holds his own word higher than his name. It's obvious to people who know the truth that you and this community will be preaching another gospel of another Jesus.
maemae1979 4 years ago
I find it very interesting, yet discouraging, that you've already decided to "interpret" for yourself what this "community" would be like. Whether you realize it or not, what you "know" of God's Word is a man's interpretation, be it your own or one who has instructed you. You've listened to various interpretations (a pastor's/an author's/etc.), weighed it against your own interpretation, and drawn conclusions that you believe to be "what God has already established as truth."
diamondd73 4 years ago
Well Jesus whas seen as a heretic and martin luther to of those that thought that power and tradition give them right to call them self children of god and judge others as unclean i gods eyes.
LarsNilsson23 4 years ago
I appreciate your comment, and it makes me wonder if Luther's and Jesus' accusers were as silent as mine have been when I've asked them to Biblically support and point out specific heretical statements within my video without taking me out of context. I've opened the conversation up to each of my "accusers", but as of yet, none of them are willing to engage in such a dialogue. It's a privilege to be counted a heretic along with Jesus, Luther, and countless others! Thanks again ;-)
diamondd73 4 years ago
Dreaming - It is where leprechauns and unicorns come from. Why not doctrine too?
Rikfleming 4 years ago
Conversation, because the pooling of ignorance just feels better than hard truth
hasani42 4 years ago
I'm more interested in how you believe verse 5 has to do with the "Dreaming" video? Specifically, if you're able, please share how God's power is denied within the dialog of the video. It's VERY likely that you've misinterpreted various statements, taking them out of context...I would be more than happy to clarify if you would provide your feedback.
diamondd73 4 years ago
Wow Paul did know what he was talking about 1950 years ago.
Verse 9 is the most telling......
5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.
~ 2 Timothy Chapter 3: 5 and 9 ~
kaylarose624 4 years ago
the first sentence was suppose to be
it's kinda scary that the thought of sinner gathered at the foot of the cross could not be a beautiful thing. I think this "dream" with the Gospel could change the world
lemon2211 4 years ago
It's scary that the thought of sinners (the sin doesn't matter) gathered at the foot of the cross. We're not there... so maybe some rethinking is required. Questioning is not heretical it's responsible. Jesus is the only way thats why we are gathered at the foot of the cross.
lemon2211 4 years ago
Close your eyes and dream. Dream of a church that is no longer bound by truth or morals. Dream of a church that becomes a syncretistic blend of various belief systems. Dream of a church that would be popular with the world and never be persecuted. Dream of a church that is no longer Christian! Wow man! These guys are so hip!
hansok77 4 years ago
I'd like to offer you the same opportunity that I've offered many... Please share with me, from a Scriptural standpoint, any doctrinal heresies within this video. Upon further investigation, you'll likely find that you simply jumped to conclusions and took my words out of context. I am, however, open to correction and instruction in the event that you uncover any areas that my words swim against the current of God's Truth as revealed in Scripture.
diamondd73 4 years ago
Diamond: You know very well that there is no space here for a thorough biblical analysis of your movement. Start your study by reading the neutral article on Wikipedia regarding the emerging church. Then read the critiques reccommended in the article. Be sure to read Carson, Erickson, Smith, Kowalski, and Moreland. Please inform yourself before you regret your alliance with this heretical, antinomian group of chameleons who speak out of both sides of their mouths.
raspeaker 4 years ago
Why assume I'm aligned with the Emerging church? I use "emerging" and "church" in the search knowing that more individuals will happen upon the video. You believe I'm united with this movement, thus, I must be a heretic. There are heretics in EVERY denomination and movement...we should filter their teaching through God's Word rather than through our preconceived notions of whatever "group" we lump them into. I'm open to Scripturally based rebuke and instruction, but please, no pigeon-holing.
diamondd73 4 years ago
Diamond you are quite uninformed. Heretics in Evangelical denominations lose their credentials. The Emerging Church Movement Stands for heresy and antinomianism. Please inform yourself.
raspeaker 4 years ago
You really can't be as ignorant as you sound. Do some reading. The truth is out there but you have to educate yourself. You should have done this before making this video.
raspeaker 4 years ago
The doctrines of the deity of Christ, the blood atonement, salvation by faith, and judgment are essential. Emergents would have us throw these things out of the window to be "nice." These are cowards who would have us conform to the world's beliefs and standards so that the world will like us. Shame on them for this compromise and shame on them for such misleading propaganda as this ridiculous video!
raspeaker 4 years ago
I'd like to offer you the same opportunity that I've offered many... Please share with me, from a Scriptural standpoint, any doctrinal heresies within this video. Upon further investigation, you'll likely find that you simply jumped to conclusions and took my words out of context. I am, however, open to correction and instruction in the event that you uncover any areas that my words swim against the current of God's Truth as revealed in Scripture.
diamondd73 4 years ago
where in the bible does it say that God dreams?
snaveybbor 4 years ago
My use of the phrase, "Let's call it 'God's Dream'," is simply a metaphorical way of saying that I believe God would be pleased if His people would come together in this manner... John 17
diamondd73 4 years ago
yea we can have a "conversation" but first let me ask you a few questions. Do you believe that the bible is inerrant? Second do you believe in absolute truth?
i have talked with many an emergent or better yet a postmodern(er).. but i digress...this will obviously eat up some space so if you like go to my profile and send me a message... i would like to dialogue
snaveybbor 4 years ago
Please visit "The Seduction of Christianity" on YouTube. In four 30 min. parts.
SoonVerySoon 4 years ago
he says that the bible is held in high esteem but God is held higher...well even God holds his word higher than himself...how would they know this? maybe dave should read it before talking abou it. this guy is clueless this movement for the most part is anti biblical
snaveybbor 4 years ago
Very interesting that you say, "...this guy is clueless this movement for the most part is anti biblical" I would love to hear more from you, and in GREATER BIBLICALLY SUPPORTED DETAIL. I doubt very highly that you'll be able to support Biblically your argument that the movement is anti Biblical unless you're simply misinterpretting what I've shared. I'm open to correction :-)
diamondd73 4 years ago
Where Church people gather to be Unchurched? So is this a place where the Sheep gather to become Goats? Maybe its where the Saved get Unsaved? Or perhaps its where the Found get Lost? Avoid this false teacher!!!
bororean 4 years ago
This guy was not convincing at all! He watched away to somewhere else too often!... And how can a gay be religious!
Unfortunately it was the only video that youtube found after i searched for my name!
erwinparker 4 years ago
not the kind of community I want to be a part of.
peetred 4 years ago
polished.
jamesbizbang 4 years ago
answer me this...how do church people gather to be unchurched?
snaveybbor 4 years ago
First you have we have to let go of thinking the church is for the "saved" Church is really for those that are not in relationship with Christ. We should gather for the "unchurched" to be exposed to the Love and truth of Christ not until we have tried to LOVE them into the kingdom should we use "laws" or as the bible says the fear of God.. it is a last point we should use not the first. I am glad God used it for you and he can use it for others but not for all!!!
par2972 4 years ago
ummm no church is for the "called out" ones.. you know...eccelesia. you cant have church for the world that would defeat the whole purpose of having church. we gather to worship and hear the Word and if unchurched come then cool but church is not for them its for us.
snaveybbor 4 years ago
(this the rest of my comment) we are to expose the love of christ by going into the community...they get into a right relationship with God and then they want to come to fellowship. thats how the bible teaches it. how do you love someone into the kingdom? the only way they get into the kingdom is by recogonizing their fallen state...repenting and putting their trust in Jesus.
snaveybbor 4 years ago
(ok this is the last part)I would say that all must come to repentance through the law and if you dont then you are coming with a false presupposition and doomed to "backslide" if you even believe of such a thing. not really sure why you are trying to redefine church but i have my hunches.
snaveybbor 4 years ago
I'm not sure where you're coming from, exactly. As for why I'm "trying to redefine church," I don't believe that I am. I'm veering away from what many believe that "church" is (an organization established with a doctrinal statement, bi-laws, 501c3, etc.) My goal moreso is to return to Christ's teachings, discarding as unBiblical many divisive and power-based doctrines that the modern evangelical movement clings tightly to. I'm open to Biblically supported correction and conversation.
diamondd73 4 years ago
Lovedbyjesus3 -- I did not mean to offend you. I think part of the church problem reaching people is thinking that people that are living in Sin can not attend church. Personally that is where I want them to be. Your comments were just very direct and kind of hard a soft answer turns away wrath I heard htat some place LOL.
par2972 4 years ago
well all i can say dude is keep dreamin cause you aint living in reality. and this dream you keep havin aint gonna be seen without comprimising the bible
snaveybbor 4 years ago
Why not? Jesus had sluts, crooks and killers around him and those are only the closest ones to him. If we are to dream the kingdom expanding we need to love all people through and during their sinful choices while saying the truth and His truth will set them free but if they are not in a christ centered community then how will they hear the truth and change?
par2972 4 years ago
you take the gospel to them...where they are not change the gospel so that they will respond out of some lame emotional appeal to a better life.
snaveybbor 4 years ago
Jesus Did both snaveybbor -- I fear the day when the church is to holy to have unsaved enter into the doors. God said Love them (emotion) or put the fear (emotion) of God into them. Sounds like God uses emotions to me, that is how I came to know Him by love and happiness!!!
par2972 4 years ago
its ok to unsaved enter the doors but dont assume they are part of the body of christ. i came to know him by the law and thats when i saw my need for saving not to make me happy although thats part of it but not in and of itself.
snaveybbor 4 years ago
"My people die with out a dream" KEEP the dream as long as God is the center the Dream can only be good and nothing good coems from the enemy!! Dave I have 99% the same dream here in my town in Fl.. Those that are lambbasting you in the name of "god" need to re think their own ego and self importance. God needs us all to bring people into the KINGDOM. DREAM ON!!!!
par2972 4 years ago
I totally agree with Alybear91 and with what Peacy says: " TRUTH CAUSES DIVISION not a false unity where everyone can come together and just put truth aside so everyone feels happy. " this what we watched or not even finish watching is a dream, that clearly is not from God,i feel terror for those who dare to even say," its from God "..remenber" do not take the name of GOD in vain "...
lovedbyjesus3 4 years ago
Therefore," declares the LORD, "I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me. Yes," declares the LORD, "I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, 'The LORD declares.' Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams," declares the LORD. "They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least," declares the LORD."
Alybear91 4 years ago
They say, 'I had a dream! I had a dream! How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds? ...
Let the prophet who has a dream tell his dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain?" declares the LORD. "Is not my word like fire," declares the LORD, "and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?
Alybear91 4 years ago
The anger of the LORD will not turn back until he fully accomplishes the purposes of his heart. In last days you will understand it clearly. I did not send these prophets, yet they have run with their message; I did not speak to them, yet they have prophesied... I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name.
Alybear91 4 years ago
Jeremiah 23 - "This is what the LORD Almighty says:
"Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD. They keep saying to those who despise me, 'The LORD says: You will have peace.' And to all who follow the stubbornness of their hearts they say, 'No harm will come to you...
Alybear91 4 years ago
Dave, your vision is not from God. God gives us his truths through deep study and devotion to his word and time in prayer... not through some mental idea that pops in your head while doing nothing. While your vision may in a way sound good, its not biblical.
Peacy 4 years ago
TRUTH CAUSES DIVISION not a false unity where everyone can come together and just put truth aside so everyone feels happy. The body of Christ is unified in CHRIST alone. The center must always be Christ. It's not about some "kingdom experience" but the holy inworking of God through the Holy Spirit in the life of someone spiritually dead.
Peacy 4 years ago
Calling this God's vision is an abomination. God's "vision" is clearly laid out in the bible, but it's not really a vision at all because the future is already in place, God's will cannot be changed, and there is no vision, only the reality of what He has willed that will come to pass.
Peacy 4 years ago
If you think there is reason to come together to question truth, you know not truth because when God changes a man he cannot question the existance of God, he cannot escape it because he has been radically altered to hate what God hates and love what God loves. If we come to the cross of Christ we must HATE our sin, and be BROKEN over it. It's not just to recognize our sin but to lament and weep and turn from it in disgust.
Peacy 4 years ago
Interesting comment. I'm curious as to how you could know that I've not engaged in "deep study and devotion to his word and time in prayer..." Regardless, I'll accept your rebuke in the event that you can share with me from a Biblical perspective (supported with Scripture) where I go astray in the video. I highly doubt that you can support your argument without taking either my comments or God's Word out of context (which I anticipate). I'm open to correction!
diamondd73 4 years ago
People need to acknowlege they are sinners- sinful. They need to REPENT. They need to ask Jesus to forgive them and accept Him as Lord and Savior.
The love love, la- la, watered down gospel will not save your soul. period.
The gospel if offensive to the perishing! YUP!
NiseyG 4 years ago
Ok NiseyG. I'm sinful. Without the Holy Spirit I am totally depraved. I see that my path lead to distruction and now, because of Christ's atoneing work on the cross, I change direction from my path of sin, toward the righeousness of Christ. I am saved. Diamond, I like your dream. I have dreamed it as well. It comes from the Holy Spirit. Hopefully, it will come true and we can share what Christ has done for us ... and possibly even put a smile on NiseyG's face.
aczook 4 years ago
gay
erwinparker 4 years ago
Funny...did you happen upon this video because we share last names? Too funny.
diamondd73 4 years ago
This is the epitome of postmodern humanism.
Where is the message of the cross?
Where is Jesus, the Savior, son of God who died on the cross for our sins so that we might have eternal life?
This "cool" church will lead people to hell. period.
NiseyG 4 years ago
Amen, NiseyG.
RaptureAlert 4 years ago
NiseyG ~ The message of the cross is interwoven throughout this entire presentation. Please listen again, and if you desire, outline where you find "heresy" or "the directions to hell" in the video. I appreciate all comments, especially those that take the time and "respond" rather than "react". The honest truth is that at the foot of the cross (as mentioned in the video) we are all forgiven, loved, and accepted. Hell is absent as we gather there, acknowledging all that Christ has done for us.
diamondd73 4 years ago
How can a church or " community " like its called in the video, can have people that believe in Christ or love Christ, yet be living in sin.. God is a Holy God, we know what the Bible says about it, i guess we all know what the Lord says about homosexuality, Just to mention something!
lovedbyjesus3 4 years ago
God loves the homosexual not the action but the person the same as He love people that hate people because of thier Sin -- do not throw the first stone friend...
par2972 4 years ago
I agree with you in that; God loves the person not their sin, i never said God does not love homosexuals, i said " we know what God says about homozexuality "
God wants everyone to be saved and to be Him, but we must dive in His word as well! If, you read comments below, you will understand better. Be blessed in Christ!
lovedbyjesus3 4 years ago
" do not throw the first stone friend... " I am not certainly, for i am not to judge anyone, i have no right and i am not perfect to do so...If you read closely you can see i am not doing what you think i am doing. Blessing! in Christ!
lovedbyjesus3 4 years ago
Crud, it only posted my last comment.
I'll try again.
Rhology 5 years ago
--"in outreach, in world missions"
>>But what will your message be? "The Kindgom Life"? Will "you are sinful and God commands you to repent" like Jesus used to say be part of that message?
So that's the summary of a Bible-believer's problems w/ this presentation of a counterfeit of a biblical local church.
Feel free to respond. I will as I get opportunity.
Peace,
Rhology
Rhology 5 years ago
This is not as heretical as I was expecting after having read the comments, but as the guy in the vid implies (not says) if God is behind something, it will bear fruit. This fruit would need to be the fruit Christ describes, so if this church is 1) empty 2) a den of immorality 3) an empty den of immorality, then He is not blessing the ministry. I thought worship was to give glory to God, and was Youtube to express my creativity in a not-unglorifying manner, not the other way around. Silly me!
blackblog 5 years ago
Color your new age dream as " freedom " and " creativity , God calls it rebellion, ...and vain imagination ..
Welcome to Babel
gta4ever 5 years ago
But praise be to God that ALL OF US can find commonality in forgiveness and newness of life at the foot of the cross. You see, what many seem to overlook is that Jesus came not to CONDEMN, but to provide a way of forgiveness and completeness in Him. I recognize where you're coming from, taking my "at the foot of the cross" comment out of context. I'm not saying that all of "these things" are OK, but rather, that all of us can find forgiveness at the foot of the cross of Jesus.
diamondd73 4 years ago
Interesting comment! I'd love to hear which parts (a few, multiple, all???) of the thought process you feel is "sincerely wrong". The place that I find myself is open to discussion, considering what others may have to share, and sincerely considering their thoughts. So, let me know! I'm curious, are you open to considering other's thoughts as well, or have you arrived at your conclusions to conversations far before the conversations begin?
diamondd73 5 years ago
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of G-d? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
walksbyf8h 5 years ago
This goes, also, for those 'christians' sitting on pews and thinking that they can live how they wish.
walksbyf8h 5 years ago
But praise be to God that ALL OF US can find commonality in forgiveness and newness of life at the foot of the cross. You see, what many seem to overlook is that Jesus came not to CONDEMN, but to provide a way of forgiveness and completeness in Him. I recognize where you're coming from, taking my "at the foot of the cross" comment out of context. I'm not saying that all of "these things" are OK, but rather, that all of us can find forgiveness at the foot of the cross of Jesus.
diamondd73 5 years ago
Oh, absolutely! But first one MUST repent! Just like Jesus told the adulterous woman, 'Go and sin no more'. It is a lie that you can live as you wish and enter heaven. The other thing that I'd like to point out is that the 1st time, Jesus came as the Lamb of G-d. The 2nd time He comes, He will be recognized as King of Kings and L-rd of Lords! Scripture says that it will be so terrifying that people will scream for the mountains to fall on them...
walksbyf8h 5 years ago
Interesteing, especially considering the fact that the adulturous woman never repented. "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way, and from now on do not sin again."
Bookman1269 5 years ago
Yes, you are correct that all may come. The problem enters when people believe that they can hold on to their sin AND Jesus. That is not true. There is forgiveness for all people but first one MUST repent. Jesus told the woman at the well, 'go and sin no more'.
walksbyf8h 5 years ago
Where is the repentance in this story? This just shows that we have lost the true meaning of metanoia (translated as repentance), which means "to change one's mind or purpose." This has a thoughtful component, meta (with) noiew (deep thought). Make sure that, if you read and support arguments with scripture, you actually read ALL of it. Repentance is not confession, it is a thoughtful change in mind or purpose.
Bookman1269 5 years ago
Jesus will not come back as the Lamb of G-d; no. No underfed, sickly looking, Englishman that has been portrayed in the movies. No, He will be amazing to behold. So much so, read Revelation 6:15-17. The KING IS coming! Who will be able to stand?
walksbyf8h 5 years ago
Is this satire? It really seems like it, but it's hard to tell. If not, then color me gagging.
Rhology 5 years ago
What color would you gagging be, exactly??? (I picture a redish, greenish-yellow shade.) ;-)
diamondd73 5 years ago
I remember seeing actor Donald Southerland act as goofy as this on Animal House...desribing an atom in his fingernail after smoking a doobie...
Mysticism leads one to full delusional deception
MITZMAN 5 years ago
You could tell that I smoked a doobie before shooting this!?! You're perceptive...very perceptive! (KIDDING!!!) I suppose people that voice what's going on in their heads and hearts run the risk of being poked fun at...but I'm OK with that ;-) Poke away!
diamondd73 5 years ago
I completly agree and thought I needed to say, your not the only one having this dream.
redwardsjah123 5 years ago
Interestingly, I've been running across many in my travels that are having the same dream, but struggle in communicating it for fear of rejection and being labeled heretical or "sincerely wrong" (see killerbeeee's response) ;-) Dream, dream, dream!!!
diamondd73 5 years ago
so umm that was cool i forgot what i was ganna say but u speak well haha and it was inspiring
chicapbball 5 years ago
Super that you were inspired! I'm wondering what you may have been inspired to do...but "inspired" has to be a positive comment, eh??? ;-)
diamondd73 5 years ago
Dave that is no way to hold the Bible in high esteem, the truth is not hinged on collective responses by the community, but rather the truth was nailed to the Cross and the preaching of the Cross brings about the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. Why do you want to question that?
Jude 1:8 Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. NASB
bororean 5 years ago
Bororean ~ I in no way question the truth that the message of the cross presents, rather, I EMBRACE it and RECEIVE and ACCEPT the FORGIVENESS that it represents. I DO question the manner in which some present this Truth, as well as the content of many of the messenger's messages...because I believe that many of the messenger's messages present far more Law (a new evangelical law) and very little Truth (see: Sadduccees and Pharisees).
diamondd73 5 years ago
You said quote: "The explanation of the truth, or God's Word, the Bible didn't hinge on any one person's the buck stops here preaching, but rather on creative teaching and the community's collective responses and thoughts on the matter where people are free to think, to think of questions and to question the answers."
You say you don't question the Truth, but your double talk reveals a doctrine that is being tossed too and fro by every wind.
bororean 4 years ago
Where do you go for the Truth? The Bible? Me too. Do you see any hint of "doubletalk" in your philosophy? For anyone to ever have come to any conclusions regarding spiritual matters, one has had to think...and in thinking, we're questioning...and whenever we draw a conclusion, I certainly hope that the questioning and learning doesn't stop there, because though we may be sincere in what we believe, we may be sincerely WRONG. And so, for me, the conversations continue...as does the learning.
diamondd73 4 years ago
An excelent living dream. Great eyes. I'd vote for you.
tuguys 5 years ago
The dream is something that's been living and growing in me for some time now...the eyes are a gift from my mom and dad :-) I'll accept your vote ;-)
diamondd73 5 years ago
Freaking Awesome! All church's should be like this!
Viciouskiller 5 years ago
I agree. What would it be like if all churches actually put into practice these two ideas: 1) Love God with all you've got, and 2) Love and look after everybody as much as you love and look after yourself???
diamondd73 5 years ago
Well done and well thought out.
emergingconversation 5 years ago
Thanks for the comment! This is an ongoing dream, ever emerging, and ever changing...
diamondd73 5 years ago