1977 World Cup 1500m - Steve Ovett

[TheEctomorph]

@bootymanager It is funny that you should mention Pat Butcher (the distinguished athletics writer) on the very day that his namesake - the 'EastEnders' character - passed away in 'soapland' !!

[mahtivaari72]

It's a pity that Ovett never won olympic gold in 1500m. He would have earned it as one of the all time greatest milers.

[deano27671]

@mahtivaari72 He already is one of the all time great milers courtesy of 2 x 1500 WRs (plus a sort of = it), 2 x 1 Mile WRs and 2 golds in the 1500m World cups of 77 and 81. In my mind both are equivalent to being world champion in an era just before the World Champs existed. Not to mention of course his Olympic 800 gold. The important thing to be considered an all time great is to win an individual Olympic gold, the exact event is of secondary importance.

[whitbyjet65]

I loved the way he held up his hand before the race was even over. That must have totally crushed the opposition. Cocky bastard lol.

[phuketjamie]

Amazing last 250m, and amazing that in the next few years the world record would drop by several seconds thanks to Ovett, Coe and then Cram. In 1977, in this race Ovett ran a British record of over 3:34!

[TheEctomorph]

What a superlative performance by the 'big O', on that evening in September 1977. Even if John Walker, the renowned Kiwi athlete, had still been in his vintage [1975] form, I doubt whether he would have been able to live with Ovett.  The Brightonian had a very formidable finishing kick at that stage in his career ...... in addition to the high degree of endurance required of a world class 1500 metres runner/miler.

It's a pity that the IAAF World Championships weren't held in 1977, eh Steve?!

[thenorthfacetrek]

Ovett - supremely talented and supremely confident....

Effortless.......loving the wave for confidence!

[TheEctomorph]

@deano27671 [Continuing on from my previous 'post' about the Coe/Ovett rivalry]: by the late John Rodda of The Guardian newspaper.

I have also read "Running Free" - a 1980 biography of Mr Coe - which, I believe, was written in part by Mr David Millar, and in part by the great middle-distance runner himself.

It is about time that Lord Coe and Mr Ovett started working on new, updated autobiographies ... in my humble opinion, at any rate!

[deano27671]

@TheEctomorph Running Free is only the first part of Coe's biography up to the end of 81. There are 2 further installments which are actually more probing. They are called "Coming Back" (1984) and "Born to Run" (1991, I think), Both were written with David Miller. You might find them on ebay.

[bootymanager]

@TheEctomorph Shame John Rodda's gone. He was one of the greatest athletics writers of the modern era. There's Pat Butcher, Duncan Mackay and even Frank Horwill. Coleman and Bruce MacAvaney (Aussie) are the best commentators. Crammie's good, so's Ovett - Bren, not so much (with all due respect to one of the great driving forces in the promotion of running in th UK). What do you other people think? Ectomorph? Deano?

[TheEctomorph]

@bootymanager Yes ... John Rodda, who was the athletics correspondent of 'The Guardian' newspaper for many years, was indeed a great writer, and a man with an exceptional knowledge of the sport. I don't think that the good Mr Rodda ever turned his hand, as it were, to commentating (that is to say, broadcasting) on athletics - but if he had done, he would probably have been very good at it.

Incidentally, Mr Rodda co-wrote Steve Ovett's

[TheEctomorph]

@bootymanager [continuing on from my previous 'post' about Mr John Rodda.]

autobiography, "Ovett", which was originally published in October 1984. You may well have read the book to which I refer.

Let me take this opportunity to wish you a Happy New Year.

[deano27671]

@bootymanager I think Cram & Hutchings are the best commentators at the moment. Can't stand Brendan Foster as a commentator. He tends to witter on, is biased and is full of hyperbole.

[TheEctomorph]

@deano27671 Hello, sir. I certainly wasn't offended by your constructive criticisms of my 'words of wisdom' (!) about the relative merits of Sebastian Coe and Steven Ovett - the two outstanding middle-distance runners of the late 1970's and early 80's.

I understand that my recent series of 'posts' on You Tube contained at least two factual errors, which you were quite right to allude to, in your response to my comments.

I have read Mr Ovett's [1984] autobiography (which was 'ghost-written'

[TheEctomorph]

@deano27671 [Continuing on from my previous 'post' about Mr Brendan Foster]: have no reason to doubt your word about this) then I can only conclude that it was a slip of the tongue on the part of the distinguished athletics pundit (and ex-European Champion at 5000m). Perhaps Brendan was 'Brahms & List' at the time !

[deano27671]

@TheEctomorph Hi! Hope my comments didn't offend you? I appreciate that Foster was in the vanguard of the re-emergence of UK athletics in the 70's and he was a v.good runner. I just find he rambles a bit in the last few years when he commentates. I also find him somewhat biased in favour of some athletes. I know most of us on here are to some extent, but we're not commentators on the BBC. He really did say that about Dobrisky! Perhaps he meant UK female, but he didn't specify that at the time.

[TheEctomorph]

@deano27671 What can I say - but thank you for your insightful and perceptive comments about the Ovett/Coe rivalry? Having read your comments, I am in no doubt that you are more knowledgeable about those two great athletes - and about middle-distance running generally - than my good self.

Are you, by any chance, that chap who wrote a book called: "The Perfect Distance: Ovett and Coe - The Middle Distance Rivalry"?

[deano27671]

@TheEctomorph No, I'm not Pat Butcher. His book is a very good read, although I can remember a series of articles/interviews he wrote with Cram in 1986, where he wasn't quite so glowing in his praise of Ovett and Coe. Perhaps that was more a reflection of Cram's thoughts at the time!? To get a more rounded view of the whole Coe/Ovett rivalry, it's worth reading both their biographies as well, if you haven't already done so.

[TheEctomorph]

[Continuing on from my previous 'post' about S. Ovett and S. Coe]: as a middle-distance runner.

It is also worth mentioning that Coe [in 1980] was under a great deal of pressure and stress going into that race - partly due to the fact that it was a race of great importance and prestige, and partly due to the fact that he had been beaten - well beaten -  by his fabled rival from Brighton, in the 800 metres final, just six days earlier.

[MrPonko]

@TheEctomorph I do apologise for what I said about your relative and I will post my entire reply and apology here as you have blocked me...

[MrPonko]

@TheEctomorph 1. I do apologise and am sorry for the comments I posted. I recant all of them and free myself from them. Esepcially as it seems as though I was talking about a relative of yours, perhaps your uncle or father or father in law or something...

I don't agree with the way he spoke to Motson, not that my comments were any better. But I accept my comments were rude and offensive, and understandably would have made his family angry, and I apologise for that.

[MrPonko]

@TheEctomorph 2. I must say though, although I do accept I was wrong, that these are 'only' YouTube comments. It would have been better if you had not taken them so seriously. MAAAAANY people are simply 'trolling' on here, saying what they don't believe to get reactions out of people. Many people are 'wind up merchants', many people are just bored. I'm sure many people have insulted Mr Clough online, but do you thin ANY of them actually have an issue with him? I doubt any of them do.

[MrPonko]

@TheEctomorph 3. When one reads comments on the internet about ones family, I believe a person should have a thick skin, and understand many people are saying what they don't truly believe or mean. Many people say things like "I hate all niggers and believe they should all be killed" but the person does not care one iota about the people he is insulting. He is probably just bored or a prankster. On YouTube you have people calling the most beautiful women in the world "ugly",

[MrPonko]

@TheEctomorph 4. people saying Lionel Messi is not good enough to play for Barnsley, and people saying Charles Dickens was a terrible writer. I once made the claim my sister plays football better than the greats like Maradona, Zidane, Cruyff etc, and others say similar things. Do you think we truly believe that?

So, although I am sorry for what I have said, I did not really mean it nor have any reason at all to dislike Mr Brian Clough, who everyone agrees was one of the best managers this

[MrPonko]

@TheEctomorph 5. country has produced. I did not like his mannerisms in that interview, but I have no issue with him at all.

But I wish goodness and happiness for you and the rest fo your family, and peace be upon those that follow the guidance...

[houghgree2]

@TheEctomorph A very interesting analysis of Coe and Ovett. I know that Brendan Foster knows a thing or two but I don't agree that Ovett was at his peak in 77/78. He was equally as good-if not better in 80/81. Coe certainly had not reached his peak in 77/78. Ovett beat Coe in the '78 European Championships 800 final when they were both beaten. All things considered my opinion is that Coe was marginally the superior 1500 runner and distinctly the better 800 runner.

[TheEctomorph]

@houghgree2 Yes, I agree with your conclusion that Mr Coe was (marginally) the superior 1500 metres runner and distinctly the better 800 runner. It is somewhat ironic that his fabled rival from Brighton, Mr Ovett, managed to become Olympic champion at the shorter of those two distances, whereas he [Coe] failed to do so. Top class sport can be very unpredictable. I suppose that, in that respect, it mirrors life itself!

[TheEctomorph]

[Continuing on from my previous 'post' about S. Ovett and S. Coe]: superlative performance in Moscow on 1st August 1980 was superior - marginally - to Ovett's stunning performance in Dusseldorf on 3rd September, 1977. The evidence - such as it is - points to the conclusion that Coe was truly INVINCIBLE on that summer day in Russia, 31 years ago - and that Ovett would still have finished in his slipstream, as it were, even if he had still been at the absolute peak of his powers

[TheEctomorph]

[Continuing on from my previous 'post' about S. Ovett and S. Coe], was able to take plenty of rest, and thus was able to preserve his energy and strength for the big night, as it were. By contrast, in the seven day period leading up to the 1500 metres Olympic final in Moscow in August 1980, Coe had to compete in a gruelling series of competitive races in the Lenin stadium - three races at 800 metres, followed by two at 1500. Given that this was the case, I am inclined to believe that Mr Coe's

[TheEctomorph]

[Continuing on from my previous 'post' about S. Ovett and S. Coe]: Of course, that statistic (which may not be reliable anyway, seeing that it was not electronically timed) does NOT prove that Mr Ovett was a greater middle-distance runner (in 1977)than Mr Coe was (in 1980). There are other considerations which need to be taken into account. For instance, one has to bear in mind that, during the two-week period immediately prior to that 1500 metres race in Dusseldorf in September 1977, Ovett

[TheEctomorph]

[Continuing on from my previous 'post' about S. Ovett and S. Coe]: Mr Ovett's burst of speed - over the final furlong [200m] of that 1500 metres race in Dusseldorf, West Germany, on 3rd September 1977 - was comparable (if not superior) to Coe's finishing speed in the Olympic final, three years later. I believe that, in '77, Mr Ovett covered the final 200 metres in 24.7 secs (hand-timed), whereas Mr Coe took 24.8 secs to cover the last 200 metres of the 1500 metres race in Moscow.

[deano27671]

@TheEctomorph No. Ovett's last 200m was 25.1, Coe's was 25.0. As my previous post points out, the 2 races were TOO different in terms of pace to compare. Coe's last lap in Moscow was 52.2, Ovett's in Dusseldorf, 54.2. So, Coe was able to run the last furlong (marginally faster) than Ovett, but off a much faster (2.0 secs) penultimate 200m. Ovett's turn of speed, as amazing as it was, was against athletes he was significantly better than. That makes it look all the more impressive.

[deano27671]

@TheEctomorph No. Ovett's last 200m was 25.1, Coe's was 25.0. As my previous post points out, the 2 races were TOO different in terms of pace to compare. Coe's last lap in Moscow was 52.2, Ovett's in Dusseldorf, 54.2. So, Coe was able to run the last furlong (marginally faster) than Ovett, but off a much faster (2.0 secs) penultimate 200m. Ovett's turn of speed, as amazing as it was, was against athletes he was significantly better than. That makes it look all the more impressive.

[TheEctomorph]

@houghgree2 [Continuing on from my previous 'post' about S. Ovett and S. Coe]: Mr Brendan Foster (who knows a thing or two about athletics) was quoted in Pat Butcher's book "The Perfect Distance: Ovett and Coe", as saying that he believed Ovett's prime years, athletically speaking, were '77 and '78.

My own view is that I am uncertain as to whether or Ovett was past his prime as a middle-distance runner by the time of the 1980 Olympics. What I would say with conviction is this:

[deano27671]

@TheEctomorph Brendan Foster may have been a good runner but he is a dreadful commentator and knows less than he thinks about 1500m running. He said only last year that Lisa Dobrisky had the best turn of speed ("kick") over the last 200m than ANY other British athlete EVER! (male or female). This is laughable and shows the man is deluded.

[TheEctomorph]

@deano27671 I must admit that I have always been something of a Foster fan, ever since I was about 10 years of age [back in 1975]. This may well have something to do with the fact that one of my friends at primary school was related to the distinguished Geordie athlete.

Tbh, I was not aware that Mr Foster had gone on record as saying that Ms Dobrisky had a better turn of speed over the last 200m than ANY other British athlete EVER (male or female). If indeed he did say that (and I

[deano27671]

@TheEctomorph Yes, he was a bit before my time, but I'm aware of his records and medals. As I said above, I have always found him biased towards specific athletes and over-blow their abilities.

[TheEctomorph]

@houghgree2 [Continuing on from my previous 'post' about S. Ovett and S. Coe]: The blistering finishing speed which Coe unleashed that day in Moscow - 31 years ago now - was astonishing to behold ...... and probably unprecedented in any race of that distance. On that particular day, Ovett could not live with him, so to speak.

However, there is a school of though that the 'big O's' peak years - as a middle-distance runner - were 1977 and '78. From what I remember, Mr Brendan Foster

[TheEctomorph]

"...... and there's one man's blazing speed that has torn this field asunder!"

Memorable words from Mr Ron Pickering (G.R.H.S.); the late, great BBC athletics commentator, who passed away in 1991.

If is somewhat unfortunate - from Steve Ovett's perspective - that, that race in September of 1977 wasn't the Olympic final! If it had been, the 'big O' would have now been regarded as one of the greatest - if not THE greatest - 1500 metres runner of all time.

[houghgree2]

@TheEctomorph A certain Sebastian Coe at his best was not in this race. Ovett was obviously a great runner but I think Coe had the edge on him when they were both at their peak. Coe won the Olmpyic 1500 metre final twice and I do not think even a fit Ovett would have beat him in '84. Look at Ovett's race against Cram in '83. Ovett tracked Cram all the way and could not beat him. Coe outkicked Cram in '84. Also Coe's 1500 P.B. was a second quicker than Ovetts. His 800 P.B. two seconds quicker.

[TheEctomorph]

@houghgree2 Whilst I have made it clear in previous comments that I have posted (on this 'You Tube' board) that I consider Steve Ovett to have been a genuinely great athlete in his prime, I have never said that he was superior to Sebastian Coe.

During the 1500 metres Olympic final - which took place in Moscow on 1st August, 1980 - Mr [now Lord] Coe displayed phenomenal speed in the final 100 metres of the race. In fact, I believe that he covered the last 100 metres in 12.1 secs.

[deano27671]

@TheEctomorph Again, his run in 77 made him unquestionably the World Champion AT THAT TIME. It wasn't that Ovett wasn't as good in Moscow (I'd argue he was better than he was in 77) but rather that Coe had emerged as the great force he was. Coe was not that force in 77. Had Coe from the Moscow 1500 final or from the 84 final been in that 77 World Cup race, I don't think it's a formality that Ovett would have still won.

[TheEctomorph]

[Continuing on from my previous post about Mr Ovett]: It MAY be true that he was marginally past his peak at the time of the Olympic Games in 1980 ... but, as I have argued in my recent 'posts' on this You Tube site, that was not necessarily the case.

I would definitely say that, by the summer of 1983, Steve was no longer the athlete that he had been in '77. And yet, to his great credit, he still managed to produce a fantastic time of 3:30.77 for 1500 metres. What a talented athlete he was!

[TheEctomorph]

[Continuing on from my previous comment about Mr Ovett]: With hindsight, it is perhaps not surprising that the great man was unable, in Moscow, to replicate the scintillating form that he had displayed in Dusseldorf, three years earlier. After all, in the seven day period immediately prior to the Olympic 1500m final (on 1st August 1980) he had had to compete in six races - including the final of the 800 metres, which he won.

[deano27671]

@TheEctomorph Not quite. It was 5 races before the 1500 final. With the final, that made 6 races in 8 days. It was in LA that they had to run 7 races in 9 days.

[TheEctomorph]

[Continuing on from my previous post about Mr Ovett], I think that it would be churlish to make a direct comparison between the great man's scintillating performance in Dusseldorf [on 03.09.77] and his relatively lack-lustre performance in Moscow, three years later [on 01.08.80].

When he went into the latter race, he was hampered - if that is the right word - by the fact that he had already competed in six races - at the Olympic Games -within the previous week.

[TheEctomorph]

[Continuing on from my previous post about Mr Ovett], I would certainly say that, during the final furlong or so of that famous1500 metres race in Moscow (on 1st August 1980), he APPEARED to be an athlete who was no longer at the peak of his phenomenal powers, physically.

However (to coin an old cliche) appearances CAN be deceptive. One has to remember that, at the Moscow Olympics, Ovett had to compete seven races (including heats, semi-finals, etc) within a relatively short period of time.

[TheEctomorph]

Was Mr Ovett already slightly past his best as an athlete in August 1980 - when he was (surpisingly) beaten in third place in the final of the 1500 metres, at the Moscow Olympics? Well, I believe that it is virtually impossible for anyone - with the possible exception of the great man himself - to answer that question with certainty.

What I would say is this: Back in Sept. 1977 - when Ovett produced that inspired performance in Dusseldorf - he was not running tired, so to speak.

[deano27671]

@TheEctomorph I disagree. The 77 World Cup was a one off race against lesser (relative) opponents. The way the race played out was tailor made for Ovett's strengths, which were, a relative consistent pace with a very fast last 200m. His last 800m in Dusseldorf was a relatively sedate (for 3:34.4 race) 1:54.2. The penultimate 200m from the bell was also pretty slow at 29.1. It was because of this that he had the energy to then run a 12.0 100m curve from 200m & finish with a 13.1 in the straight.

[deano27671]

Despite easing down slightly in the last 50m, his effort was made on the bend & he wasn't able to maintain that sort of speed in the last 100m. That was his ONE "great" race in 77 where everything fell in place.

He was a BETTER athlete in 1980 & ran several great races over 800 & 1500/Mile. Had the same pace materialised in a 1500 (e.g Moscow final) that year, I have no doubt he would have been able to at least re-produce the same finish, and possibly run slightly faster in the last 100m.

[deano27671]

However the Moscow final was the 6th race in 8 days, so it wasn't a ONE off. Moreover the pace wasn't steady for 1300m, but started off slow and got progressively faster. Coe's last 800m was 1:48.6 (5.5 secs faster than the 77 World Cup), and the first 200m of the last lap was 27.2 (1.9 faster than the Dusseldorf race). Coe then ran a 12.9 curve, followed by a 12.1 final 100m! Ovett actually closed on the curve with 12.7, but couldn't find an extra gear to match Coe, with 12.6.

[deano27671]

This was FASTER than his last 100m in the 800 final (12.7) & in 77 World Cup. Had the 77 race been run at the same pace as Moscow, I have no doubt Ovett would still have beaten the field he faced in Dusseldorf, but he wouldn't have been able to inject that 12.0 curve with 200m to go. The dynamics of the 2 races are completely different! Of course Ovett was more tired in the Moscow race, but that is what the Olympics is about & he would have geared his training to those conditions accordingly.

[deano27671]

Moreover, Coe was in exactly the same position in term of tiredness.

A lot of people think that Ovett did not run that well in the Moscow 1500, but the stats show this was NOT the case. The fact that Straub beat him is the diverting influence. Straub had NEVER ran anything approaching that quality before Moscow and NEVER produced anything approaching that form again. Why? Probably due to the now known GDR state sponsored drug programme.

[deano27671]

He trained in the same group as Olaf Beyer, who was named in files found after re-unification, as part of the drug programme. Straub shouldn't have been anywhere near Coe and Ovett at the finish. Take him out of the equation and the race looks completely different.

[TheEctomorph]

What a marvellous athletic perfomance by Mr Ovett, when he was young and in his prime. (That race took place on 3rd September, 1977, I believe - when he was 21 years of age.) It is a pity that he was not able to replicate that scintillating form in the Olympic 1500 metres final in Moscow, three years later. Had he been able to do so, he would have given Sebastian Coe a good run for his money - and may even have beaten him.

Mr Ovett, in his prime, was unquestionably an awesome athlete.

[martynhanson]

Strange but part of the rules. It was well known at the time that Ovett's slower time would be scrubbed if not beaten by the end of 81 season. Sometimes quirky rules work like that. Take 300m in lanes for 800m. That was mad but it certainly helped a 400m runner like Juanterena in his quest to win 800m gold.

[4miler]

What a classic race! I had the honour of meeting Steve at a British Milers' Club coaching week-end many years ago and what a talent, and gentleman, he was! Without doubt this was THE performance!

[martynhanson]

On the subject of times and PB's I would much rather have Ovett's 1500m than Coe's faster mark? Now some people would say that is daft. Let me explain for two reasons. First, Ovett's WR 1983 of 3-30-77 is in the record books for a lifetime. It was his third time and is still in the IAAF record progression - you have to go back 60 years for the last man to have three records. Secondly, it was obvious he could have run faster later if illness in 84 hadn't have intervened.

[deano27671]

@martynhanson Though having said that, his first listed WR actually equalled Coe's mark. It was actually slower (3:32.09) than Coe's WR (3:32.03), but they were both rounded up to 3:32.1. And in actual fact it wouldn't have counted had Ovett not run 3:31.36 later in 1980, as of 1.1.81, world records reverted back to the nearest hundredth. A strange state of affairs.

[martynhanson]

I find that generally people who bang on about stats imply this. For example, some guy - because Scott's mile time was better than Ovetts- was trying to say he was a better athlete than Ovett!! that is stupid. Without getting too carried away with nostalgia etc I do believe the milers of the mid 70's to early 80's were the best. This is because they still had plenty of races without pacemakers as well as with them. So I would say they were more balanced milers.

[deano27671]

@martynhanson I agree. Ovett's potential over a Mile was greater than Scott's. No comparison. Scott was a great runner but Ovett was an all-time great.

[GranpaChook1986]

John Walker at the end is hilarious. He's like "WTF just happened?!"

[xxxDAPROBLEMxxx]

great quality video, thank you. that final 200 was amazing, I love it when big john walker steps off the track- priceless

[newromantic888]

Steve was totally amazing.

[hales51]

My favourite athlete.

[martynhanson]

Ah!! It's the president of the Seb Coe fan club.

You are obessed by stats and there's loads of people like this now. We are talking about racing (RIP). iN 1978 the times did not reflect the ability of the runners as much less time trials. By 1984 more and more races were becoming time trials. So the Anthony Wightmans of this world can get 3-32 coming about 9th but is he better than Wessinghage, Coughlan? According to you , Yes! How sad and lacking depth.

[deano27671]

@martynhanson No I never said Anthony Whiteman was as good as Coghlan or Wessinghage! Of course he wasn't. For a start he was competing in a different era, some 20 years later. In the late 90's, not only was there widespread EPO use, but every race on the circuit was paced at WR speed & he would have been chasing EL G, Lagat, etc. Coghlan, Ovett, Coe, etc were all racing in the same era, under same conditions. So in that respect using stats to compare them tells us a lot, though not everything.

[martynhanson]

Actually, the Euro champ field that Ovett trounced in 1978 was better than Moscow olympics 80 and LA 84 (Ovett ill, and Cram below best through injury)

[deano27671]

@martynhanson Nonsense! At the time of the 78 Euro Wessinghage (3:34.77- 1976!) was the only man other than Ovett (3:34.45 pb from 77) to have broken 3:35. The next best was Moorcroft at 3:35.48.In Moscow there were 3 men sub 3:34 (Coe WR holder, Ovett 3:32.09 & Straub 3:33.68). In LA 6 men entered the event with a pb of sub 3:33 (the 3 Brits, Scott, Maree & Deleze) & then there was Abascal-3:33.12, Spivey -3:34.12 & Chesire-3:34.52. That's 9 men faster than anyone Ovett faced in Prague 78.

[deano27671]

And Cram was in as good a form as he'd been the year before in Helsinki. He said so himself on the eve of the games. He just expected it to be run in 3:38 not 3:32. The fact Coe beat him so easily underlines how easy Cram had it in 82 & 83 when Coe & Ovett to a large extent, were absent through injury and illness.

[GranpaChook1986]

Walker at the end is like "WTF just happened?"

[knightsxc06]

The picture quality of this race blows my mind.

[FullMontyUK]

One further comment. Ovett's greatest strength, in my opinion, was his change of pace. It's not that he could cover the last 100 or 200 metres more quickly than the other athletes but he could reach sprinting speed two or three strides earlier than his competitors. Add that to his generally good tactical brain and his run of middle distance successes in the late 70s through to the early 80s is easily explainable. As is his slight vulnerability to the 'long kick'.

[slimdynamite]

Not only is Steve Ovett the 'Greatest' middle distance runner of all time. He's the 'Greatest' character ever to pull on the spikes. How much better off would athletics be if there were 5 Steve Ovett's running around? Guerrouj doesn't have 5% of Ovett's character.

[Averagebum2]

Wow, that's amazing! Ovett looks like he was trying to chase Bolt down in the final 200m.

[mackapacka]

Jurgen Straub WAS in the field in this race - if you look closely he congratulates Ovett at the end of the race after Ovett totally blew him him away. Straub was also in the 1500m field in Prague 78 which Ovett destroyed too. So - here's the thing - how could the same runner - Straub - improve so much to outrun Ovett in the 1500m final in Moscow 80? Straub never threatened Ovett before or after Moscow.?Similarly with the Olaf Beyer in the 800m final in Prague - he ran STRAIGHT off the track.

[deano27671]

@mackapacka Exactly. Straub in Moscow wasn't the same athlete he had been before or after. That's why it is misleading to use him as a point of reference when explaining Ovett wasn't in top form in the Moscow final. He was, one only has to look at Ovett's splits to see that. I have little doubt that Straub was using peds at the time, based on the fact he was coached by the same guy as Beyer, who was listed on a drug programme found after Unification.

[FullMontyUK]

@deano27671 I can recall a GB vs DDR match where Straub ran Ovett pretty close. Maybe 1979? But one major difference in Moscow was that Straub went for the 'long kick' which he hadn't been willing, or maybe able, to do before. Tactically it was spot on because that was what Ovett struggled to cope with. He may have been on drugs but you have to give him some credit for way he ran.

[deano27671]

@FullMontyUK It was June 78 at Crystal Palace. It was a very slow 1500m (3:53.8!!) and Ovett won by 0.28 with a 24.8 last 200m.

You're absolutely right about Straub's tactics though. Ovett's 200m kick was rendered impotent if someone went early enough. Cram did a similar thing to him at the Palace in 83, but Ovett wasn't quite as good still by then. Even so, Straub's last 100m in Moscow was c. 12.6, which is faster than Ovett's last 100m in Dusseldorf! Straub was never able to do that.

[FullMontyUK]

@deano27671 Cheers. Didn't think my memory was failing me (much). I can remember watching the Olympic 1500 and being surprised that Ovett couldn't get past Straub. At the time I put it down to the fact that he'd won Gold in the 800 and lacked the desire to push that little bit harder in the 1500. But given that Straub never repeated that kind of form (much like Beyer at the Europeans in '78) it makes his performance suspect. But we'll never know sadly.

[deano27671]

@FullMontyUK Ovett should really be regarded as the double European champion from 78, in my opinion. The Moscow 1500 was a completely different type of race to this one (Dusseldorf) or Prague. People make the mistake of using these 2 races to compare with, when analysing Ovett's run in the Moscow 1500. There, Ovett's last 100m (12.6) was faster than in Dusseldorf (13.1) & Prague (13.4). His last 200 (25.3) was only slightly faster than 77 (25.1), but faster than in 78 (25.7). 

[deano27671]

The difference is that in Moscow, the opposition was far better than it had been in the World Cup or European Champs. Ovett wasn't "not running as well" in Moscow, he was actually running faster! Which basically contradicts all those that say Ovett had an off day in Moscow.

[FullMontyUK]

@deano27671 Faster running doesn't necessarily equate to 'better performance' compared to other races because there are so many factors involved. I'm not saying you're wrong mind you, just pointing out the reality of the situation. People have tried using speed and/or time statistics to compare racehorses but it's a very inexact science (as I know to my cost! (8 ).

[FullMontyUK]

@deano27671 Of course the other point would be that at the level that Coe, Cram and Ovett competed the difference between winning and losing was very small meaning that psychological factors play a very big part. Ovett would have only needed to have been fractionally off his game for a pumped up Coe to beat him, all other things being equal. The same was true for their races over 800 metres.

[mjad191]

In his autobiography Steve Ovett says that he had difficulty motivating himself for

the Olympic 1500 meters final because he'd won the gold in the 800 meters and

was still a bit emotionally drained from accomplishing that. Coming from just about anyone else you would suspect that was just a churlish

comment because he hadn't done a double. But not Steve , he was like that - very

emotional guy with an artistic temperament. For what it's worth he was a very good artist as well.

[augusteve1]

Grandissimo,credo l'unico campione Olimpico degli 800 metri che sia riuscito a battere tutti i primatisti mondiali di quel periodo,Coe negli 800,Henry Rono nelle 2 miglia Kimombwa nel cross.Elegante,potente ma con una elasticita' unica,credo che se non avesse avuto l'incidente al ginocchio nel 1981 avrebbe fatto ancor di piu' la storia...era in grado di primeggiare dagli 800 ed i 5000,ma se lo avesse voluto anche nei 10.000mt.Unicamente inimitabile...AUGUSTO da PESCARA ITALY.

[futuremodal]

Deano needs a timeout.

You keep saying that Ovett couldn't run the last 100 as fast as his penultimate 100, yet you provide no practical evidence, just your subjective opinion. I've shown you plenty of examples of negative splits in the last 200 of races - proof that is the norm. You can also see for yourself that Ovett deliberately slows here in the last 100 to look back and then wave to the crowd. What more do you need?

[deano27671]

@futuremodal You offered 1 example of a negative split; Coe's LA win.

[runningshoe1]

When I was kid I idolised Ovett. For me he made athletics cool. Think Usain Bolt. I remember a match against the DDR, I think, when he started celebrating and waving to the crowd with about 100m to go and the East Germans chasing hard..

[futuremodal]

You'll have to forgive deana27671 - doesn't understand why running a curve is harder than running a straight, doesn't understand an athlete having to fight centrifugal forces that resist the constant change of direction. Ovett's 12.0 on the curve here is worth at least an 11.7 on the straight if he had kept pushing instead of turning his head and waving to the crowd. He certainly wasn't straining in any way.

[deano27671]

@futuremodal Does your arrogance and ignorance know no bounds!? Where did I ever say that running a curve is easier than running a straight? Nowhere!

If you can't respond to the point I'm making, but instead respond to something I've never cited, then that's your problem. If Ovett had run the penultimate 100m here on a straight and recorded 11.7, his last 100m would still be much slower; at least a second, whether it was on a straight or curve.

[futuremodal]

Ovett probaby could have run that last 200 in 24 seconds if he hadn't waved to the crowd, or if someone like a Coe would have pushed him. To me this is the pinnacle of finishing speed from a miler that even Coe could not match in his heyday. In my book this makes Ovett the best miler ever from an observational standpoint.

[deano27671]

His last 200m was 25.1. The wave may have cost him 2 or 3 tenths, not over a second! All out he may have run 24.7. But then Coe and Cram have also finished a 1500m with a last 200m in under 25.0. The reason he had such an amazing turn of pace in this race is that the previous 100m had been a slow 14.4, the previous 200m 29.1! It's almost unheard of in a major Championship at 1500m for the first 200m on the last lap to be run so slowly. They played right into Ovett's hands.

[futuremodal]

@deano27671 It wasn't just the wave. Indeed, the wave was just an indicator of someone coasting to the finish line. He easily could have run a second faster had he pushed to the line, or realized he was just off the record. That is the one striking difference between Coe and Ovett - Coe always pushed to the finish line even if he knew he was beat, while Ovett seemed to give up if he knew he wasn't going to win. For proof - Moscow Olympics.

[deano27671]

@futuremodal There is no way on Earth Ovett could have run 24.1 that day. After running the curve in 12.0, he was slowing down at the end. Yes, he could have strained & been a bit faster, but not a second. That's 8m or 4 strides. Coe didn't always push to the finish- see European 1500 in 86 where he clearly eased down knowing he was beat- & Ovett didn't give up against Cram at the Palace in 83 or at the Worlds. In Moscow 1500 he couldn't get past Straub, so eased up in last few strides.

[futuremodal]

@deano27671 Keep in mind it is easier to run faster on a straight than on a curve. An athlete that can run 12 seconds on the curve should in theory be able to run under 12 on the straight if he simply holds his form. Ovett didn't let up because he was straining, he let up because he knew he had it won by the time he entered the home straight. As for Coe, he was washed up by '86 - what I am saying is that in their respective primes, Coe always seemed to push to the finish while Ovett let up.

[deano27671]

@futuremodal "As for Coe, he was washed up by '86 " - that comment alone tells me you can't be taken seriously. In 86, not only was Coe ranked No. 1 in world at 800m, winning the European gold, but was fastest over 1000m &1500m (3:29.77). Clearly he was "washed out"! LOL!

NO, if you run 12.0 on the curve in a 3:34 1500m you cannot hold on to that form. Find me one example of someone doing that, ..ever!? A 3:45 1500m then yes, but not at that speed. The wave flattered to deceive.

[futuremodal]

@deano27671 Excercise dynamics and the laws of physics dictate that straightaways are easier to run than curves. Oh, an example of someone running the last 100 faster than the penultimate 100? How about Coe in LA? Keep in mind also that Ovett was moving up from being primarily an 800 runner where sub 25 200's are the norm. Ovetts stride length and frequency were at the optimum here, a combo that began to diminish even as he improved as the world's best miler from '77 to '81.

[deano27671]

@futuremodal You're having problems comprehending! Of course there are examples of the last 100being faster than the penultimate one. That's not what I said! If you ran the curve in 12.0 you cant maintain that speed in the straight in a 3:34. Coe's curve 100m in LA was 13.0, before running 12.7 in the straight. That was off a last 400 in 53.2 (compared to Ovett's 54.5 here) & a last 800 in 1:49.8 (Ovett's 1:54.2); very different type of races. Sub 25 last 200m have never been the norm in 800m.

[deano27671]

@futuremodal Dynamics & Physics aren't too relevant to Ovett's form here I'm afraid. He invariably kicked with 200m to go, got the daylight & the others couldn't close on him. Even when winning the 800m in Moscow, he ran the last curve in 12.3 & then slowed in the straight to 12.7, despite no waving and running all out to the last stride or 2. In Moscow 1500 Ovett was actually only 0.2s slower over the last 200 than here, but 1.7 faster in Moscow over last lap & over 5 sec faster over last 800m

[deano27671]

It's all relative. Just because Ovett won by a mile in 77 and it looked faster, it wasn't really any faster than Moscow. That's because he wasn't racing Coe or Straub in 77. As for Ovett being the No. 1 Miler up to 81, Coe was ranked 1 in 79 & 81 and beat him in Moscow! Ovett's undisputed reign ended in 79.

[futuremodal]

@deano27671 As for Coe being washed up by '86, it seems you want to dwell on semantics. Fine - I'll retract my original statement and supplement it with "Coe was on the downside after '86." Sheesh. The fact remains Coe was no longer the stud that he was, and 1986 was the beginning of his slide.

Oh, and a bit of advice - I've read many of your posts and for the most part respect your obsevations, but you're starting to act like that jerk "VirenKickedPresAss". Keep it on the up & up, okay?

[deano27671]

@futuremodal What, because I disagree with you & can back up my points with cohesive points!? I need no advice from you thanks. Ask anyone who knows about inter. middle distance running at this level and they'll tell you that no one runs 2 consecutive 12.0 100m at the end of what would then be a 3:33. Ovett was magnificent here, but you can't assess it properly just by looking at the last 200m. Other factors, like a 29.1 previous 200 have to be considered. I personally feel he was better in 78.

[KingLiopleurodon]

This is one of the rare moments in track history when we see the crown of world number 1 being handed over directly from incumbent to challenger. Ovett took it from Walker in this race. Walker, No1 75-77. Ovett, number 1 77-80. After three years of dominance, Ovett then lost his crown when Coe outkicked him in the 1980 Olympic final. Here, Walker knows it and yields to this force with his uncharacteristic DNF.

[martynhanson]

Cliff Temple also said it was, in his opinion, the greatest 1500m race. Sadly he passed away a few years ago. Now, Deano I will not allow you to say nobody could have stopped Coe. That's what you lot said prior to the 800m!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!­!!!!!!!!

[martynhanson]

You can;t talk about the 1500m in Moscow in isolation - the 800m was part of it too. There were factors that made up the result of both races.

The thing that pisses me off the most is the Coe fans say their man handed Ovett the 800 so if it hadnt have been for his 'mistake' then he would have won the double. Nobody knows that, as far as I know.

[AllanWellsfanclub]

what about Moorcroft's 5000 record? Great footage here. Did Walker step off in the huff?

[Irenaeus03]

I believe this was when John Walker began to experience ailments related to compartment syndrome, so I don't think he gave up in a huff.

[AllanWellsfanclub]

I was unaware of said ailment.

[TheEctomorph]

@Irenaeus03 Pardon me for being such an ignorant muppet ... but what is compartment syndrome exactly?

I know that Mr Walker (the outstanding Kiwi middle-distance runner of the 1970's and early 80's) was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease at some point after his career in athletics had come to a close, but I wasn't aware that he had also been diagnosed with this syndrome that you mentioned in your comment. Is it connected with Parkinson's disease?

[knightsxc06]

Superb quality for a 32 year old race!!

[deano27671]

Ovett's burst with 200 to go here is awesome. 12.0 round the curve (25.1 last 200) has rarely been matched. However, when one looks at it in context, we see that the 3rd lap of the race was a rather pedestrian 59.7, and the two 100m stretches that preceded the last 200 were 14.7 (54.2 last 400) & 14.4 (39.5 last 300). Compare this to Moscow, where the 3rd lap was 54.6 and the last four 100m went 13.5 (52.2), 13.7 (38.7), 12.9 (25.0) & 12.1, and it's not hard to see why Ovett couldn't kick.

[wylamman]

The red vested Algerian in this race is the elder brother and coach of Noureddine Morceli in one of his early international races. He was only 19 or 20 and later ran in the Moscow and LA Olympics.

[ARRISIPPY]

Cheers for this! I've seen this on Youtube before,but never in such high quality. Keep on shoving 'em on! Haven't got C'wealth Games 1500 from '74,or even better,the Rono /Ovett clash from '78 over 2 miles?...being greedy!!

[micksaltydog]

anyone got the footage of Ovett training at merthy maw sand dunes ???

[CraigMac4h]

I've watched this video over and over- I think that Ovett eased off and said "eh, a medal's fine, I already got my gold." Ovett has been quoted as saying that if the 1500 had been first, he probably would have won that and lost the 800- he just really wanted a gold medal. Compare this to Coe's "do or die, must get this gold to redeem myself" attitude going into the final. Coe has said if he had lost this race, he would have quit running. I think Ovett threw the race, personally.

[deano27671]

Of course he didn't throw the race! He did say the quote about "if the 1500m had been first..." but that's just an excuse. The fact is, no one before or since the Moscow 1500m has run faster over the last 100m in a Championship race, than Coe's 12.1. And this in a race where the last 700m was at 1:46 800m pace. No one would have beaten Coe that day!

[fitzieo1]

In 1986 European championships Coe knew what Ovett meant about his quote in 1980,as he would have beaten Cram in the 1500 if he hadn't have won the 800 first,I thought they were both fantastic great era of middle distance running.

[deano27671]

Yes, he did say that. The difference being that Coe gave himself little chance of beating Cram in the 86 1500m, due to being too far behind him and boxed at the bell. Coe ran the penultimate bend in lane 2, and had he just run the same distance as Cram, would have covered the last lap about 0.4 faster than Cram. With Ovett, he was in the perfect position at the bell and on Coe's shoulder with 100m to go. Coe covered the last 100m in 12.1. Ovett was never going to beat that.

[toninho1994]

The Moscow 1500 was effectively turned into a 2nd 800 metres race by the ridiculous slow pace of the first 2 laps and Straub's big kick with 700m to go. So talk of the incredible finishing splits is misleading as the early pace was so slow. Ovett was quoted as saying that he believes if Straub were not in the race he would have beaten Seb . I don't think Coe would have had the confidence to "go" from 700 metres out on his own even though I believe it was probably his best tactic.

[deano27671]

Most championship 1500m races were tactical in the same way as Moscow; Montreal, Prague, Helsinki, Stuttgart, etc. In none of those (or any other since) was the last 100m as quick as in Moscow, despite the finishing times in 76 Oly, 83 Worlds, 86 Eur all being slower than Moscow. So it is very relevant. In many of those, the pace didn't hot up til the last lap which meant the guy with the best basic speed usually won. The only fast "true miler" race in that period was LA, and Coe won that too.

[deano27671]

I don't think it mattered that Straub went with 700m to go. Coe was clearly well placed, and he would have been able to outkick Ovett if it came to a last 300m or 200m burn up. Statistics don't lie, and Coe was covering the closing stages quicker than Ovett in both the 800 and 1500. The only concern for Coe would be if he got boxed. Straub's long drive merely made that less of an issue. Ovett was always well positioned and Coe went away from him in the straight. The better 1500m runner won.

[mackapacka]

Seb Coe - no less - described this as THE textbook championship 1500m race -ovett made it all look so ridiculously easy at this stage of his career - he should be awarded a retrospective 800/1500 double for prague 78 and an Olympic silver for Moscow 1500 because of the Beyer/Straub East German drugs assisted cheats. Justice should be done there

[International1ify]

When Ovett was in top form, such as in this race, he could beat anyone from any era. He ran 11.8 for the penultimate 100m, then coasted in the final 100. HIs final 200 was 25.1, and he wasn't even trying in the final 100m. Incredible runner.

[Averagebum2]

Simply unbelievable, Ovett. I read somewhere that he trained 300+ miles a week. Is that true?

[wetzel267]

respect for 1 st place but one of the worst things you can do in a race is looking around and behind you stay focused and look forward

[sebcoe81]

I love the debates on these videos - I think putting this race in its proper context i.e. prior to the whole Coe/Ovett saga this was a sensational performance

[huntinwr]

Anyone know if there is a video of 5000 meters from same meet?

[bootymanager]

Yeah, I want to see Yifter(Ethiopia/Africa), Dave Fitzsimons (RIP Australia/Oceania) and the great if slightly over rated Liquori (USA).

[JacktheDaniels]

Thank you so much for posting this race - I had been missing it!

[markgregamy]

if only olympics were 77 or 78 steve would have had another olympic gold. 78 in prague he was also unbeatable.

[deano27671]

He wasn't unbeatable in Prague, because Beyer beat him! lol. No, seriously, it came out in the early 90's that Beyer was listed on documents claiming that he was part of the National GDR state funded drug scheme, proving the suspicion at the time that he was taking something to run "out of himself" in Prague. So really, Ovett should have won the double in 78. Likewise, Straub was a training partner of Beyer's (same coach) and ran out of his skin in Moscow.

[deano27671]

I think Ovett's kick here is phenomenal. But remember his last 200m of 25.1 was off a last lap of only 54.4 and a last 800m of 1:54! Coe's last 200m in Moscow was faster (25.0) off a much faster last 400 (52.2) and 800m, 1:48.5. I think people sometime see what Ovett did to the opposition in this one race and then mistakenly think he run below par when he didn't do the same in other races. Ovett was just as good in Moscow as he was here or in Prague, if not better.

[bootymanager]

He (Ovett) would've been much faster over the last 200 and last 400 if he wanted to be. He only started to sprint at the 200 and pretty much stepped off the gas with 100 to go, knowing he had about 10m or so on Wessinghage (who was a brilliant runner, by the way). Walker,for some reason, just wasn't up to it on the day. He actually ran 3.32 that season, but didn't seem at all like the supremely confident, dominating superstar of Montreal.

[deano27671]

I think you exaggerate slightly. He ran the curve (penultimate 100m) in 12.0, which is phenomenal! He didn't step off the gas with 100m to go. He eased up over the last 20m and perhaps if he'd gone all out the last 200m might have been 24.7/24.8. He was never going to sustain the speed he generated round the bend. That was Ovett's trademark; to kick hard at 200m, get a gap and sustain it. In Moscow he couldn't get past Coe at the 200m mark because they were already operating at such a fast pace.

[deano27671]

Yes he could have run a second to a second & a half faster over the last 400m, but at the expense of his kick at 200m. Had the pace picked up at the bell & the last lap was run at 53.0, I have no doubt Ovett would have still won, but his last 200m wouldn't have been as fast. It would probably have drifted to 25.6 - 26.0; still v. impressive. He was certainly capable of breaking the WR that year & I think he could have got Juantorena's 800 record in '78 had he tried seriously in a few top meets.

[LPCLASSICAL]

Surely the difference between 1977 and 1980 finals is that in 77 ovett looks comfortable in the home straight - in moscow he is flat out and straining. he was off par that day in moscow - probably psyched out by coes agression on the track.

[deano27671]

The difference between the 2 races is that in 77 Ovett ran the last 100m in 13.1 while in Moscow he ran it in 12.8. But more importantly the last 800 in Moscow was 1:48 pace compared to 1:54 pace in 77. He strained because he had nothing left.

[LPCLASSICAL]

Yes you are right. That is a big difference and I suppose just goes to demonstrate Coe's superiority over the 77 also rans. Though I will never come to terms with Straub's second place in Moscow albeit probably drug assisted.

[deano27671]

Of course Ovett was "naturally" better than Straub, and I too cannot accept what Straub did. There was no evidence in any other race in his career which backs up this sort of form, whereas Ovett can point to plenty. I think Ovett perhaps eased off a bit when he knew he couldn't close on Coe, which might have just sneaked him a silver. The main thing is that Ovett had never been in this sort of race before (with a long drive for home). Ovett was also cheated out of a Euro double in 78 by Beyer!

[LPCLASSICAL]

I actually think that seeing Straub in front of him obscured his view of Coe and he probably thought the race was well lost - with no Straub in the picture the race winner might have been the same - but Ovett would have been closer to Coe giving us the race we wanted. Yes I recall the Beyer win - one of the most outrageous results in athletics history. If he had any honour he would send the gold to ovett - just as straub ought to send him the silver (not that ovett would care for it)

[deano27671]

@LPCLASSICAL The reason he was straining in the last 100m in Moscow and not here has more to do with the fact that here, his last 800 was in 1:54.3, whereas in Moscow it was sub 1:49. His last 100 here was 13.2 ( yes looking relaxed, but hardly "not even trying"), while in Moscow it was half a second faster, 12.7. When people like Ovett & Coe were at their best, they often looked like they weren't trying, but that's only half the truth.

[deano27671]

The course of this race played into the hands of Ovett's main strength; namely his explosive kick with 200m to go. The pace just prior to that point was v. slow (29 secs for the previous 200m). In Moscow it had been 27.0. You can't really compare the 2 races, as they were very different in terms of pace efficiency.

[markgregamy]

i meant he was unbeatable at 1500 in 77 and 78, not the 800. also think if only he had raced in 1500 in montreal in 76 he could have gone close, if only he was born 2 years earlier etc. beyer and straub no doubt on the ben johnson nutrition plan.

[deano27671]

Ovett did actually run the 1500m in Montreal but was knocked out in the semis. You have to remember though that he was only 20.

[yorks432]

what a kick!

[carlfromhastings]

Thanks so much for posting this and the other races - very much appreciated!