Sub Panel Boxes Wired Incorrectly, Home Inspection

[894973bee]

thanks for info on bonding jumper and and proper grounding of sub panel

[TexasHomeInspector]

@894973bee Glad to be of help.

[DiveOregon]

@TexasHomeInspector So i am not sure why a Home Inspector would be catching this and not the City/county inspector if its a brand new house? or is there no such thing in Texas? It is also important to point out that the same rules would apply to the wiring of a hot tub disconnect or other types of enclosures that house a separate over current device.

[TexasHomeInspector]

@DiveOregon Hello DO, yes there are city/county code compliance inspectors in most areas of central Texas where I work. Not sure why these issues are missed so often, I still see many problems with panel boxes in new construction. And yes, especially with pool/hot tub equipment, thanks for the pointing that out.

[DiveOregon]

@TexasHomeInspector I noticed that you use the term 220V. There is no such thing as 220V. Or 110V for that matter. There is only 240V and 120V. The common Voltages are 480V, 277V,240V,208V,and 120V. It is just a pet peeve I have is all.

[cbarsonfire]

There are only several cases where the code would allow the installation of a over fused cicuit such as a fire pump. The idea would be that the pump must not trip under any load. Better to burn up a fire pump than to have a failure of the automatic fire sprinkler system. Ref: NEC 230-90.

[MGiants82]

Even though you can oversize the breaker for that motor, I still would never run the undersized wire. The whole point of the breaker is to protect the wire not the motor as they have their own protection. If that circuit were to draw 40 amps guess what will happen, possible fire hazard. That will not pass here nor have I ever seen a HVAC tech do that.

[TexasHomeInspector]

@MGiants82 I’m guessing as to why it may not be appropriate to up size the wire. A breaker on a motor circuit often has to be over-sized (but never higher than manufacture’s spec) due to the power surge when the motor is turned on; if the breaker was sized to the wire ampacity then the breaker may trip often during normal operation. Increasing the wire ampacity to match the circuit breaker will also increase the watts and may exceed the watt rating of the motor

[russdonruss]

@TexasHomeInspector No that's incorrect. Watts are a unit of work. The wire is not a load or wattage considered in the load of the motor. If the breaker size is increased and the wire size is smaller than the requirements of table 310-15(B)(2) --new 2011 NEC-- the wire is the weakest link in the circuit and can overheat under the oversized load. Overheating of the conductors can cause a breakdown of the insulation and lead to short circuits and fire hazards. Larger wire = lower resistance.

[TexasHomeInspector]

@russdonruss Here is a website that expains it better than I can, inspectapedia. com/aircond/aircond06.htm (note: youtube won't let me post web addresses so I put a space in the address to fool them, remove the space). Read the section "Locked Rotor Amperage"

[TexasHomeInspector]

@MGiants82 Over sizing the circuit breaker on HVAC units is common here in the central Texas area. But your point is well taken.

[MGiants82]

@TexasHomeInspector I don't want to come off as a jerk, I was just a little worried is all when I saw that. Plus good catch on the bonding jumper.

[nsaminder]

@TexasHomeInspector - "HVAC + dedicated motors can be 30 amps over..."

Thanks I did not know that. (Yeah the first panel looks like it has tons of violations).

Good explanations.

[nsaminder]

Just have to add -

At the beginning of the video the two bottom breakers on the right are clearly marked 40 amp - but the wires connected appear to be not larger than 12 or 10 ga.

[TexasHomeInspector]

@nsaminder A 40 amp breaker typically would be oversized for a #10 conductor, but for HVAC &circuits dedicated to motors, the breaker can be 30 amps over wire ampacity but can't exceed motor or HVAC amp rating.

Most motors & special receptacles will be labeled with maximum ampacity and/or maximum size circuit breaker allowed, from there you can get an idea of the required wire size for that circuit.

If it were for a 220v clothes dryer circuit or water heater, it would be over sized

[nsaminder]

what 's the deal with those red wire (or white) being re-identified with tape?

I thought that #6 & smaller HAD TO be original white factory jacket. Is it #4?

Also shouldn't the sub panel connector have a bushing even though it's a PVC fitting?

Yes / No?

[TexasHomeInspector]

@nsaminder I’m not familiar with any code requirement about original wire insulation color, there may be but not sure. There are a few problems with the panel box and I’ve received many comments about the lack of bushings, however, the basic theme of the video was about grounding.

[steji113]

Great video! Awesome explanation of your work as well

[steji113]

Great video! Awesome catch.

[normanmj]

What is that thing in his hand he keeps poking the box with?

[GLOCKIOMM]

the 2" conn and pipe in this sub panel are PVC and do not require a bonding bushing or a plastic bushing.no current fault or otherwise will flow on this raceway

[russdonruss]

Nice catch. Most inspectors would not have caught that bus tie between the grounded and grounding systems. Now, had this been the main service, the panel would have been correct except for the missing bushing on the 2" TA. Because it is a subpanel,this effectively provides an alternative path for ground-fault current to travel on--in other words even current from the main service may travel through this panel in the event of a ground fault-a hazard for service personnel and fire risk.

[TexasHomeInspector]

Thanks and you are correct. Uploaded a new vid yesterday on appliances that are not grouded and that may expain the consequences of improperly wired panel boxes.

[georgedori51]

very informative, thanks

[fidely]

Awesome fucking video. I can't believe someone bother to share it, thanks.

Now! : ) Does the sub panel requires to have a separate grounding rod in addiction to the grounding/green coming from the main panel?

Thanks (California)

[TexasHomeInspector]

The sub panel will not have a grounding electrode (ground rod). However, the 2009 IRC I believe (haven't purchased the code book yet) will require all sub panel boxes in detached buildings to have a grounding electrode (The IRC code pulls the electrical code directly from the NEC). Many cities in Texas are still using the 2003 codes which may be happening in your Cali area also.

[74VDC]

I was a whiz at the NEC and particularly in regards to grounding, but that was long ago and am now a locomotive electrician, and not nearly as fluid as I once was. My last NEC knowledge comes from the 1999 NEC, and I believe then you could service up to, but not exceeding 6 branch circuits w/o a seperate grounding electrode (ground rod or equivalent) beyond that, a ground rod (or equiv.) would be req'd. This additional GEC would be req'd to be bonded to the main service GEC's.

[deathcow]

> and in a sub panel the ground cant be in circuit

One reason is that current flowing back from the subpanel flows over both ground AND neutral, connecting the metal chassis of everything in the house to power. In a house like this you can detect voltage on the exterior chassis (metal) of nearly everything that plugs into the wall.

[74VDC]

Yup...you know it. Ever pulled apart conduit fittings, or been installing new ones and see it draw a small arc as you brought them together? It is SO prevelant in residential and low scale commercial ops it isn't even funny. Funny thing is, I've met career electricians who either didn't know this, or did, but could not explain WHY. Mix in a bit of solid state, like PLC's, and you find out how important this whole business of grounding really is.

[deathcow]

I actually learned this lesson by getting a rather frightful shock from a bare ground ! For a second I thought I had shorted a hot somewhere to ground, but then it all clicked. I had recently purchased a BK precision "voltage detector" and was rather frustrated that any piece of metal in my house would make it light up. I had thought the thing was broken. I immediately went to my interior subpanel and found the neutral grounded.

[kijifled2]

thanks a lot. Would it be violating any electrical codes if you have a four wire feeder cable going into a main? i know that it might vary by what state you live in too.

[TexasHomeInspector]

Your question make me get my code book out and read it (for once). The four wire from the meter to the main is ok from what I can tell.

[74VDC]

You may want to ask how he plans to use these 4 conductors, because I can think of a number of scenarios where it most definitely WOULD NOT be ok.

[kijifled2]

how come in the main panel the ground and neutral are bonded together and in a sub panel the ground cant be in circuit. If the ground is bonded to the neutral in the main panel should'nt it be considered part of a circuit

[brkfstclub35]

The code stipulates that the the grounds be separated after the first means of disconnect. They should have "bushed" that MA too.

[TexasHomeInspector]

You are correct on both accounts and thanks for the help.