How The Discovery Institute Could Really 'Challenge Evolution' (v2)

[finderfinder100]

The cool thing is while they are doing this research they most likely will be doing research that would strengthen our understanding of evolution and not at all help their cause

[SqueakerAlpha]

what I personally find more interesting , and I find little info on it, is instinctive behaviors in animals. How do they get created. This seems like a learned behavior being transferred by the dna. Unless there is no instinctive behavior, which seems unsupported by animals like turtles.

[momentofsciencetx]

ID challenges evolution by lying.

[CreationistVotebot99]

Here's how the Discovery Institute challenges evolution: censorship.

[NeoSentience1]

false challenge!!!

"give an example of the ERV in 2 different animals that are WIDELY ACCEPTED as not coming from the same gene pool"

impossible task due to circular reasoning

if an ERV is found in 2 animals, then the WIDELY ACCEPTED idea is that they are from the same gene pool

someone who claims to be smart, should have caught this before wasting the time of making the video

"Neuro-Linguistic Programming" is a very useful tool, but some of us can see right through. try again!

[C0nc0rdance]

I disagree. Systematics is based on many factors. At this point, most animals are classified by a few simple AFLP assays, which don't do any sequencing, and would be insensitive to ERVs.

The only shortcoming of the test is that we don't have full sequence data for all animals yet. At this point, only a few hundred genomes are "completed" meaning all of the genes are sequenced.

My username is c0nc0rdance, which means arriving at the same conclusion by multiple methods. That's the test.

[bitbutter]

'false challenge!!!

"give an example of the ERV in 2 different animals that are WIDELY ACCEPTED as not coming from the same gene pool" impossible task due to circular reasoning'

You misheard and/or misunderstood. What you just described is not the challenge I've described. You can find a summary of the challenge in the info box.

[Ripley747]

Do you even know what NLP is? NLP is a lot more than just the words you choose to use. It involves a host of different things from "anchoring" to "eye axis queues." Accusing him of manipulating you through NLP is like getting run over by a police motor cycle and claiming the US military declared war on you. Or was that a separate statement and you were just saying NLP was useful?

[Chrisnoscrub047]

Good video bitubtter. There's nothing more intellectually honest than spelling out a way that your beliefs would be falsified.

[Paulginz]

It shouldn't be too hard to find one....

I remember there being a particular species of spider that has almost no "junk" DNA. That's probably a good place to start looking for missing ERVs (there must have been a lot of gene deletion)

[GoodGuy4life199]

00:50 or maybe they were infected with the same erv......

[Beefstew2011]

Unlikely to even be the same and if it was the same it wouldn't be in the same relative location.

[Tumblemark]

Is this a really effective challenge? Maybe in familiar genomes, such as those of diploid animals. But there are many polyploid plant species. IIRC they can speciate by losing genome copies as well as by gaining them. Thus a plant species could have arisen by losing a copy of its genome containing a recombinant viral fragment yet still be in a lineage with others that retain it.

There could also be other living things that lost (by lateral transfer?) sections of genome.

Don't get too smug.

[bitbutter]

Thanks for the information. I hope I don't come across as being smug. I'm learning about this as i go.

So the challenge needs qualifying, limiting it to diploid animals. Do you think that would do it?

[bubka]

Polyloidism is when the number of chromosomes is doubled, or at least some are doubled. This doubles that genetic information and can allow few new genes, which Creationists deny can happen

There could be an exception where the ERV could have been removed because of a polyploid event where the gene was duplicated and removed by mutation. Probably rare but given the nature of these events, especially plants, I am sure it could be found.

Actually most polyploid events probably double the ERV.

[Beefstew2011]

This could happen, but if the same thing holds as above as long as the statistically significant correlation predicted by the theory of common descent holds. Molecular biologists can then calculate the probability of mutations occuring in that area and would probably get a number of far over 99 percent accuracy predicted by common descent. The authior of this video goes too far in saying find just a single one.

[bitbutter]

"The authior of this video goes too far in saying find just a single one."

You're right, maybe I over-egged the wording. Just one would not be enough to topple common descent, but it would be the start of a body of evidence that could represent a serious challenge to CD, and examples should not be difficult to find.

[bubka]

Yes, but again you are using Evolution Theory to support evolution by explaining how genes could change by a polyploidism. Creationists would nitpick this, but again, it only strengthens evolution theory in the end.

[middlekk]

All creationists HAVE are nits.

[iamnotloggedon]

nits?

[middlekk]

Do ERVs infect plants?

You could limit this to multicellular animals.

After all, the only animal theists are interested in his humans. And I've even had some theists challenge whether humans ARE animals - as if our bigger brains were evidence that we're something else.

You'll never satisfy the truly brainwashed.

[COMALiteJ]

Of course, the entire I.D. logic system is based on a logical fallacy. Let's grant their highly debatable premise for sake of argument:

1. If life were Created / Intelligently Designed, it would be very complex.

2. Observe: life is very complex indeed.

3. Thus, life was Created / Designed.

Now let's substitute a much less debatable premise:

1. If Paris Hilton were President of the USA, she'd be very famous.

2. Observe: Paris Hilton is very famous indeed.

3. Thus, she's President of the USA.

[bitbutter]

Their claim seems to be that life in not just very complex, but irreducibly so. Of course claiming that any system is irreducibly complexity is problematic, since you can never know if you've found a genuine IC system--or whether we just didn't figure out yet how a reduced version of it could be adaptive. God of the gaps-ish.

[COMALiteJ]

God of the Gaps is itself a fallacy, and Irreducible Complexity is basically Argument from Personal Incredulity. "We can't think of nor imagine a way that these things could be useful if only partly implemented, therefore they must not be." No, that only demonstrates the limits of their imaginations, and has nothing to do with reality.

[hilbert54]

Excellent.

Really well conceived, produced and presented.

[bitbutter]

Thanks very much hilbert.

[seanmPWH]

Your inference is an assumption; ERVs don't have to be acquired by inheritance only. The original infestation was not acquired by  inheritance, therefore the assumption is not justified.

[bitbutter]

"Your inference is an assumption; ERVs don't have to be acquired by inheritance only."

I didn't claim otherwise.

[middlekk]

You don't understand.

ERVs are viruses that infect the sex cells - egg or sperm. They are therefore passed on by straightline Mendelian processes to the offspring.

The INITIAL infection is acquired, but all SUBSEQUENT appearance is by inheritance.

Since we're talking billions and billions of base pairs, the odds of the same ERV infecting the same DNA spot is vanishingly small.

Therefore, proof of relatedness if seen at the same spot across species.

So simple even a creationist can understand.

[ticobassie]

Excellent use of graphics to help making your point come across.

[bitbutter]

Thanks very much ticobassie, glad you liked the visuals.

[bcosten2007]

nice graphics sir ;) - better than the paint version we're most often stuck with

[bitbutter]

Thanks bcosten

[shiningwhiffle]

We don't need no steekin' science to prove God did it. It's in the Bible! [/sarcasm]

[cobol528]

Ironically, if there is ever any evidence found to challenge the theory of evolution it will be found by "evolutionists" not creationists. Creationists do not do real research.

[COMALiteJ]

Funny you should mention that. Just the opposite happened not so long ago.

Bacteria in a lab were observed to EVOLVE a BRAND NEW BENEFICIAL TRAIT, something that Creationists/IDers have long claimed was impossible!

And now, the kicker: this happened in a CREATIONIST lab! They were TRYING to DISprove evolution!

(Looks like the "Discovery" Institute FINALLY actually DISCOVERED something! Just not what they wanted...)

[bitbutter]

Interesting. Do you have any keywords/urls for finding more about this discovery COMALiteJ?

[COMALiteJ]

Wiki "Biologic Institute"

[bitbutter]

"...she discussed leaky growth, in microbial colonies at high densities, leading to horizontal transfer of genetic information, and announced that under such conditions she had actually found a novel variant that seemed to lead to enhanced colony growth. Gunther Wagner said, So, a beneficial mutation happened right in your lab? at which point the moderator halted questioning."

Ouch.

[COMALiteJ]

Yeah, that's an eleven on the ol' irony meter.

(And it only goes up to ten.)

[DragonGreenFire]

@cobol528 That's called flusablity. (yes i miss spelled it) The reson creationists fail so badly is how little they understand the concept.

[rkyeun]

@cobol528

They don't even do fake research.

[dave28lax]

Ooh - deja vu. I must be in the matrix.

[AmericanApostate]

Excellent video. Some of the best evidence is on the molecular level, with genetic markers. This is where IDers will never go, because they know that they will not win.

[bitbutter]

Thanks very much AmericanApostate. I'm very keen to find out what DI's stance is on this; and whether they will address the issue. I mailed them about it and will post back if i get a reply.

[eals524]

I can probably save you some time there mate, they'll go on about same designer, same genes and finish up with a strawman argument, evolution can't prove bananas, or something like that...

[Neilsama]

So, the challenge would be to find something similar to the following:

An ERV carried by a dog an an ape in the same relative location to one another without having the same ERV appear in humans, a species believed to have a much closer common ancestry with apes than dogs.

That would be a major coo for the ID people, but the problem of ERVs is much more potent than even that. Fact is, we have LOTS of ERVs in common with apes, and they get much more common in closely related species.

[Neilsama]

ERV commonality not only suggests close ancestry between species with that share the highest frequency, but it also correlates with what science has already predicted to be true.

Like the bunny in the Cambrian challenge, this is one challenge that I don't expect Discovery Institute to take up any time soon, because I suspect that they already know that they're going to fail.