Roberto Duran vs Esteban De Jesus II (Part 3 of 4)

[1BBNM]

Don't forget Shugar Sissy Leanard is BLIND because Duran busted out his Eye Sockets!!!

[Blackjaynut]

And Yes Laughran held on to a weak title for three years without a defense. On his first and only defense he lost. Who cares how he's ranked. In Official records he's a paper champion. I only want to debate details about the ring skills of Roberto Duran in comparison with his opponents and fighters around his era who deserve to be in front of him on the bogus P4P list.

[jtowen06]

@Blackjaynut Mate, you're stuck in the 50's man. Racism isn't all that anymore, you need to grow you, you sound so bitter in all your posts.

[jtowen06]

@jtowen06 grow up.*

[faltagh]

Just another cry baby who falsely assumes he's owed something, disgusting !!

BTW, that ESPN list is a joke.

Duran doesn't need you-tube jerk offs to insure his place in HOF.

[Blackjaynut]

@faltagh That is just the type of comment a "Youtube jerkoff" would make. Yes the ESPN list is inaccurate. Duran is ranked to high. Got his tail whipped by too many other HOFers.

[faltagh]

You want to try to explain the difference between "black" and non-black fighters ? Isn't it you that has a race issue ?

My comment on Duran is based on boxing skills. It's only my opinion. Though shared by many. You don't have to agree, don't bring race into it. I'm "white", not Hispanic.

[Blackjaynut]

@faltagh The difference between the two is fan support. The two can have equal skills & accomplishments yet the general public will favor the non-black. As in this fight. DeJesus beat Duran in their first fight & gets no credit for it through most of the posted comments. If the tables were turned, it would be a countless number of comments giving excuses for Duran's loss & giving him all the credit in the world for beating DeJesus in the first fight. I see that kind of thing on here a lot.

[faltagh]

@Blackjaynut Your certainly not addressing the comments you made earlier, and I don't really care. You can have your slanted view as can many others. Its clear you have a jaded view of things, too bad. Enjoy the vids.

[Blackjaynut]

@faltagh Were not in preschool dude. There aren't very many all time great white fighters who used an elusive style of boxing from a distance. Pep was good and I like the Klitschkos. The majority of top tier popular white fighters are brawlers. C'mon lets not waste time. We all have busy lives. Give me some quality material to debate on. I'm a busy guy.

[1saxonwolf]

@Blackjaynut Your commentary is pre-schoolish. Pep & Klitschkos in the same sentence ? Mosley, Mayweather, Whitaker ahead of Duran @ LW ? LMAO. Jones, Holyfield top 10? R U serious ?

U started this with your racist comments. "white fighter r brawlers"? like Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Loughran, Gibbons brothers, Tunney, Benny Leonard, etc.... Your an idiot. Quit trying to sound educated about something you know little about. "people like Duran cause he's not black" , your fkin sick on top of stupid.

[Blackjaynut]

@1saxonwolf The Klitschos are dominant. If you worship at the altar of Pep thats your problem. Could you please explain in detail why Duran is a better fighter than Whitaker, Mayweather, Pacquiao, or Mosely? Jones was #1 P4P most of his career. Holyfield was never in a one sided fight. Corbette, Fitzsimmons, Gibbons bros, Tunney & Leonard fought in the Golden age of fixed bouts & no ethnic competition. TGibbons had 44 draws. C'mon! Loughran lost his only title defense. I'm educated on my era Sir

[1saxonwolf]

@Blackjaynut R U sick in the head ?? Tommy Gibbons had 44 draws ?? How about 4 ! He Ko'd Kid Norfolk in 6. Only stopped once in over 100 fights. Loughran lost his only title defense ?? He's ranked as 4th all-time at LHW. Defended his title 6 times. U obviously don't know much, quit pretending, U look like a fool. Your not educated!!

Duran is consistently ranked with B. Leonard & J. Gans as the 3 greatest LW's ever. PERIOD!!!!

[Blackjaynut]

@1saxonwolf I'm not interested in debating those fighters Sir. the era was too prejudiced. Not enough global competition. Thanks for the heads up on those guys. It's nice to see white guys studying their history. I'm interested in eras of inclusion such as late 60's and on. You proved your point about whites being able to box outside but those fighters aren't top tier. Only the very old ones who fought differently and just don't fit in comparison for this debate. The P4P list is bogus anyway.

[faltagh]

PFP greatest fighter in the last 40 years !!

[vwazp]

@faltagh amen!

[Blackjaynut]

@faltagh Thats a very biased statement. Has racial elements to it. What about DeJesus? They're both equally skilled. I wonder if Duran was not a fair skinned ethnic would you say he was the greatest.

[faltagh]

@Blackjaynut Nothing race based about it !! If it was I would have picked a "white" fighter. DeJesus was very skilled, agreed. Sorry I can't indulge you on the race issue. Very biased indeed !! Great fighter ! Duran had everything a "GREAT" fighter exemplified. As shown exceptionally well on this vid.

R U whining that Duran's not "black" ?

[Blackjaynut]

@faltagh No reason for whining. I've never thought of Duran as the greatest fighter. If I did it wouldn't matter about his race. He fights more similar to most white fighters than black. I do find fault whith comments like yours implying that in the recent past era of 40 yrs where the majority of top tier fighters were Black there are none who were as good as Roberto Duran. I say thats pure racially charged B.S.

[garethac81]

@Blackjaynut

Your racial stereotypes are complete nonsense. There is no such thing as a "black style" or a "white style" of boxing. Who represents the black style of fighting...cautious, slippery defensive masters like Pernell Whitaker, or bullish, aggressive punchers like Mike Tyson? Their styles could not be more different. Duran "fights more similar to most white fighters"? Like who...Rocky Marciano, or Willie Pep? Your comments are a load of crap.

[Blackjaynut]

@garethac81 Most non-black fans today favor a brawler over an elusive boxer. Roberto Duran is a fighter who non-blacks favor because of his brawler style talents & for the fact that he is not black. This element of favoritism toward Duran sparks exaggerated opinions from many of his fans on where he should be placed on the best P4P list. That kind of method for judging elite talent or any similar method is inaccurate, biased, & prejudiced against black fighters who earn a top spot on the list.

[garethac81]

"Most non-black fans today favor a brawler over an elusive boxer."

That statement is utter garbage, and borderline racist.

"This element of favoritism toward Duran sparks exaggerated opinions from many of his fans on where he should be placed on the best P4P list"

Duran is consistently ranked beneath Robinson and Ali (two elusive boxers who happen to be black) on the vast majority of P4P lists. Where's the favouritism there? And WHO exactly is being overlooked in favour of Duran?

[Blackjaynut]

@garethac81 The statement is my honest opinion from watching sports all my life, & debating fans from all walks of life. Yes many Duran fans say he is the best ever. I have favorites but I don't play around with the all-time great list. I accept the truth in the talents of my favorites fighters, & don't boost them up through biased support or make weak excuses for their losses. I'm not an expert but Duran is too high on ESPNs P4P. His all-time position is where his lightweight ranking should be.

[garethac81]

"Yes many Duran fans say he is the best ever."

No shit...THAT'S BECAUSE THEY'RE DURAN FANS. Go watch a Roy Jones clip...you'll find Roy Jones fans saying he's the best ever. Go watch a Floyd Mayweather clip...same thing.

Amongst boxing experts, Duran is consistently ranked exactly where he belongs: in the middle of the P4P top 10. Ring Magazine - the most respected source of boxing journalism on the planet - ranks him at #5. I'll ask again: WHO is being overlooked in favour of Duran?

[Blackjaynut]

@garethac81 I'll name this guys from ESPN's. Don't have access to Ring's. Mayweather, Hopkins, Jones, Tyson, Holyfield, Holmes, Hagler, Leonard, Marciano, Dempsey, Johnson. I'm talking P4P all-time not just dominating one division. Moving up in weight counts in my book. If you have Ring's message it to me and I'll break that one down.

[garethac81]

@Blackjaynut

I assume you're telling me some or all of those fighters deserve to be ranked above Duran on the all-time P4P list?

Mayweather's legacy is on hold until he fights Pacquiao. Jones' lack of ambition and losses to Tarver cost him his top 10 spot. Douglas and Holyfield exposed Tyson as a bully who couldn't win a tough fight. Bowe and Lewis cost Holyfield his spot. Holmes had no big wins. Dempsey fought one great fighter in his career (Tunney), and was soundly beaten twice...

[Blackjaynut]

@garethac81 I give you a rebuttal later on.

[Blackjaynut]

@garethac81 I'm talkin the best skilled P4P fighters with the performances and overall records to prove it. Pacquiao doesn't define Mayweather's place on the list. He is only in competition with him in who's placed ahead of who. Jones' KO losses were at the brink of retirement. Pinklon Thomas, Tony Tucker, & Frank Bruno were tough Tyson fights. We all know he lost focus B4 Douglas/Holyfield. Holmes/Norton for the vacated title??? What!!! The Cooney fight set records. Dempsey reigned for years.

[garethac81]

"Pacquiao doesn't define Mayweather's place on the list." Yes he does. If Mayweather doesn't fight Pacquiao, he will be remembered as a coward who ducked the best opponent of his era.

"Jones' KO losses were at the brink of retirement". Jones is still officially active today. Tarver and Johnson beat him SIX YEARS AGO.

"Pinklon Thomas, Tony Tucker, & Frank Bruno were tough Tyson fights". No they weren't. They were one-sided victories against midlevel opposition.

[Blackjaynut]

@garethac81 No Mayweather will not. That never happens in history. They're both great fighters who couldn't agree on a bout. Jones retired from top rank competition six years ago. He fights for entertainment now. I can say the same about Duran who actually lost to midlevel competition on several occasions.

[garethac81]

@Blackjaynut

"That never happens in history"...because historically, great fighters have nearly always fought their best opponents. This is the first generation where big matches are more likely NOT to happen, purely because the participants are more interested in money than their boxing legacy. Mayweather is a prime example of this...he's running scared from Pacquiao, making petty demands to scupper negotiations and prevent the fight from happening. This WILL severely damage his legacy.

[Blackjaynut]

@garethac81 Not at this point in his career. Mayweather is not in a tournament or anything. Doesn't even contend for a belt. Pacquiao isn't a mandatory fight for him. Mayweather had established that type of fight long schedule before Pacquiao gained his current level of popularity.

[garethac81]

@Blackjaynut

Hahahaha! Mayweather ducks the biggest challenge of his career, and you claim it won't affect his legacy? You absolute HYPOCRITE. You claim that boxing experts have a pro-Duran bias, while you sit there and say that about Mayweather? If that's not a crystal clear example of bias, then I don't know what is.

[Blackjaynut]

@garethac81 You interpret it as such, but it's not the case. It didn't hurt Leonard when he avoided Hagler. Tyson avoided Lewis for the longest and nobody cared. It's just how boxing goes. A great fighter is respected for his skill, not his challenges of other fighters. There you go again Mr. Public Opinion. Work on your biases, and study your own subjects.

[1saxonwolf]

@Blackjaynut BTW, My list of boxers previously was a counter to your ridiculous comment about "white" fighters not be elusive,long distance boxers", or some crap along those lines. Like Calzaghe, Butte, Kessler, Froch, etc. for a modern example.

"general public is racially biased against black fighters" ?? And U don't see that as U having a "RACE" issue???

U NEED HELP !!! U R A SICK MAN !!!

[Blackjaynut]

@1saxonwolf You proved your point. I'll give that to you. I could debate you on style performance. But back to the greats for me & the biased placement of Roberto Duran who is ridiculously placed as a top 5 ATG. His record does not warrant such a position. Did ok wading around the LW division. But when he moved up to welterweight (with the exception of Leonard 1) he was a flop. I don't need to be expert for that. I watched his fights as he brought mediocre competition to the higher weights.

[Blackjaynut]

@garethac81 Not at this point in his career. Mayweather is not in a tournament or anything. Doesn't even contend for a belt. Pacquiao isn't a mandatory fight for him. Mayweather had established that type of fight schedule long before Pacquiao gained his current level of popularity. (typo correction)

[garethac81]

"Jones retired from top rank competition six years ago. He fights for entertainment now"

Jones fought Joe Calzaghe 2 years ago, and Bernard Hopkins less than 1 year ago...two of the most highly ranked fighters in the world.

Your arguments for these fighters being ranked above Duran just tally up one false statement after another...and I've shot down every single one of them. Face it...there's NOTHING you can say to justify your silly nonsense about a "racial bias" in favour of Duran.

[Blackjaynut]

@garethac81 Jones fought both guys on name alone. Not true ranking. Duran doesn't measure up to any of these guys. You can't justify him being ranked so high other than your worship of the ground he walks on. You present no hard evidence that would exemplify Duran's greatness. Absolutely no hard facts or details of his skill that surpasses even one of the names I 've mentioned.

[garethac81]

"You present no hard evidence that would exemplify Duran's greatness..."

This conversation is a farce. You make one false statement after another ("Jones stopping fight top ranked opponents 6 years ago", "Pinklon Thomas gave Tyson a tough fight", etc.), and now you've stooped to making false statements about MY statements!

(continued)

[Blackjaynut]

@garethac81 Go back and watch the Tyson fight. He was a young fighter who had to dig deep. It was a surprise knockout. Do you know boxing or do you just know spectating.

[Blackjaynut]

@garethac81 Give me P4P details. Why is he the best mechanically? Can you do that all by yourself? Or do you just take pride in being able to carry Duran's jockstrap the furthest?

[garethac81]

Word for word from one of my earlier posts on Duran's legacy:

"Right...because being the most dominant lightweight champion of all time, being a world champion at four different weights, and still defeating much larger, much younger world class opponents into his late 30's couldn't POSSIBLY have anything to with it!"

[Blackjaynut]

@garethac81 Ray Leonard did more. Did it impressively and should be ahead of Duran.

[garethac81]

You've said boxing experts overrate Duran due to his ethnicity...I've shown you the ratings which prove that to be false. Duran is the only Latin-American in Ring Magazine's P4P top 10...if there was a racial bias in his favour, there would be more fighters of the same ethnicity ranked around him. And as if that wasn't bad enough, your arguments for rating other fighters above Duran are strewn with factual errors AND personal bias, as I've already pointed out.

You're wrong...I'm done here.

[Blackjaynut]

@garethac81 Yep finish you are digging a deeper hole. You're too easily influenced by popular opinion instead of really looking for yourself to decide. I said that the general public is racially biased against Black fighters & support Roberto Duran's career on that premise. The experts rate Duran in allignment with the favor that the general public awards him. His overall fight record does not fit the profile of a top 5 ATG. You should never have to make excuses for a fighter thats rated so high

[garethac81]

(continued)

Marciano's best wins were against smaller, much older men. Ditto Jack Johnson.

The only fighters you mentioned who could CONCEIVABLY rank above Duran are Hopkins, Hagler and Leonard. For the sake of argument, let's assume all three deserve to go above him. That's still only 3 names! Shuffling 3 names around on the P4P list hardly changes it at all.

You'll have to do A LOT better than that to back up your absurd claim of a "racial bias" in Duran's favour. Got anything else?

[Blackjaynut]

@garethac81 Marciano and Johnson fought everybody in their era. From #5 add Whitaker, Mayweather and Pacquiao (lightweights BTW) to place Duran at 10. With more research I could see a fair placement around the mid to late teens without much dispute from people who are not fans of Duran.

[Blackjaynut]

@Blackjaynut excuse me thats already out of the top ten at 11.

[garethac81]

"Marciano and Johnson fought everybody in their era" In both their eras, the heavyweight division was relatively weak. Not their fault...but neither of them have the victims to warrant top 10 P4P rankings.

"Holmes/Norton for the vacated title??? What!!! The Cooney fight set records." Norton = good, not great (and past his prime when Holmes fought him). Cooney = mediocre, overhyped.

"Dempsey reigned for years." Very infrequent defenses, against almost entirely mediocre opposition.

[Blackjaynut]

@garethac81 Again, these champions reigned for long periods of time unike Duran. And Duran didn't fight a whole lot of high level competition either, but when he did he lost in basicly every weight class. 

[garethac81]

Oh, and for the record, at #5, Duran is the ONLY light skinned fighter in The Ring's P4P top 5. He's also the only Latin-American fighter in the top 10.

Admit it...your claim about a racial bias in favour of Duran is pure nonsense. You've assumed that the majority of boxing experts rate him as highly as his diehard fans do. As I have just shown you....you're wrong.

[Blackjaynut]

@garethac81 Yeah they're trying to sqeeze him into the top 5 where he truly doesn't belong. Whitaker should be where he is and Leonard should be ahead. #5 all-time is very close and certainly in allignment with biased die hard fans. Roberto Duran has absolutely no business in the top 5 of any all-time greats list. There is no tangible or intangible justification for it except racial and sociological bias.

[garethac81]

@Blackjaynut

"Roberto Duran has absolutely no business in the top 5 of any all-time greats list. There is no tangible or intangible justification for it except racial and sociological bias"

Right...because being the most dominant lightweight champion of all time, being a world champion at four different weights, and still defeating much larger, much younger world class opponents into his late 30's couldn't POSSIBLY have anything to with it!

[Blackjaynut]

@garethac81 How was he the most dominant? by wading around in the division until he got old? DeJesus beat Duran at lightweight when Duran had a belt, and knocked him down in this 2nd fight. Leonard did all that you've mentioned and beat Duran twice!

[faltagh]

@Blackjaynut You have no credibility with these comments. Whitaker, R. Leonard ahead of Duran ? If u had your way it would be top 100 all black, right? Get off the page ! Racist POS. Entitlements? Reparations? Yes?

Fight game knowledge= 0. You have nothing to bring to debate. Go study. Take off your racist blinders so you can see a quality fighter. Your embarrassing yourself(if thats possible).

[Blackjaynut]

@faltagh Truth & live testimony in watching these fighters is my credibility. Here you go exposing the roots of your bias against Black fighters. The rest of your commentary is prosecutable. Horrible race based venom! I hope that you will be ok. Roberto Duran is a great fighter but if you study you will find that he is not regarded as top tier on any official list of records stored in the pro boxing community. This "all-time P4P" list is very subjective, unofficial, always changing & irrelevant.

[faltagh]

@Blackjaynut I have nothing against black fighters, just against a-holes like you. Playing the blame game,finger pointing to make up for insecurities & demented views. Absolutely juvenile. Remember you can always pack your bags and leave the country.

As far as your credibility, you have none. Your slanted view & statements are ridiculous, consistently false and poorly if at all researched. Do us all a favor and quit commenting.

[Blackjaynut]

@faltagh "No Mas" Folks! & through dejected expressions this SOB tells me to leave the country like he's America's gate keeper. Typical sour grapes after getting exposed for who you are - a run of the mill, anti-black, pathetically biased bubble gum card sports fan. I've said my peace about your underserving, unofficial, underachieving champ in Roberto Duran. I won't say he sucks, but even if no Blacks were on the list, Duran is not a top 5 ATG by official record. Do your own homework next time.

[tw69hands2]

@Blackjaynut:

Duran's no Sugar Ray Robinson. He's one of the best, but not THE BEST.

[Blackjaynut]

@tw69hands2 I could agree with that. Finally a sensible statement and outlook.