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@MrPawnman99 A good Lutheran follows the Word, the result of which Jesus warned us. Holding to the Truth will divide families and cause believers to be hated as He was. Speaking the Truth is not showing discrimination, rather a desire to spread the pure Word of God. If some choose not to hear than we move on. (Mt10:14) Also, Psalm 5: 4-5 tells us that God does hate some people.
@mconklin3love "Fairness" and "kindness" should never get in the way of truth. The actual truth of what the Bible says is more important than how people might feel. It is more "unChristian" to trust our own feelings more than we trust the Word. (See Prov. 28:26.)
This video reminded me of how that kind of Lutheranism (which I was born and baptized into) helped make me fear believing the wrong thing. So much emphasis in Lutheranism is put on being right and it seems it was more important to believe the absolute right thing on every nitpicking hairsplitting point of theology than it was to develop any kind of loving faith. I also found so much condescension on the part of Missouri Synod Lutherans towards those of other Lutheran synods.
And, of course, there was even more condescension towards other protestant religions. We were always told what made us superior, how we MS Lutherans were right on this point and that point. It gave me a lot of pain.
Baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is the initiatory sign and seal into the covenant of grace. As circumcision referred to the cutting away of sin and to a change of heart (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4; 9:25,26; Ezk.44:7,9) baptism refers to the washing away of sin (Acts 2:38; 1 Pet. 3:21; Tit. 3:5) and to spiritual renewal (Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:11-12). The circumcision of the heart is signified by the circumcision of the flesh, that is, baptism (Col. 2:11-12).
One last thought: If someone maintains that baptism is necessary for salvation, is he adding a work, his own, to the finished work of Christ? If the answer is yes, then that person would be in terrible risk of not being saved. If the answer is no, then why is baptism maintained as being necessary the same way as the Jews maintained that works were necessary?
@Taiwan1997 Baptism is not our work. It is God's work to us, joining us with Christ, forgiving our original sin, connecting us to Christ's death and resurrection, making us sons of God, now saving us, and saving us through the washing of rebirth and renewal of the Holy Spirit. You can find these references in Romans, Titus, 1Peter, 1Corinthians.
Baptism is your work if you are adding it as a work towards salvation as with communion. When you are born again you don't lose your salvation because that is a work of God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit cannot fail. You will have to keep your faith in the flesh by doing your religious rites. Repent and believe the gospel.
I liked the ending where you refer all complaints to our Bishop, Hanson. He seems like a nice guy. I have only met him a few times while my church was closing. (Want to buy a church in Waukesha, WI? Call Bishop Hanson's office) HeHe.
Are you aware that the church in front of which these characters are standing is techinically, at least according to you Missouri folks. no longer a Lutheran church but a Union church (i.e. mixed or united Lutherans with Reformed)? Guess they're "not my kind of Lutheran" either.
He keeps saying "...along with the Ancient Christian Faith...." Should he come right out and say, "The Orthodox Christian Church", since that's precisely what it is....?
"No-I belong to the REAL Lutheran church. The one that thinks gays are real icky and that women shouldn't claim to talk to the Invisible One because of an Iron Age text written by people nobody's ever met." "And no-I'm NOT being sarcastic and yes, I do expect to be taken seriously. Even though we've changed our minds before, that was different."
There is a divide between many denominations, where some get away from preaching Christ Crucified, Died and Resurrected, neglect or down play the Sacraments, get tired of preaching on the forgiveness of sin and move towards the concept of political areas. The distinction as to the Kingdom of the Left and the Kingdom of the Right comes into play.
I am an ex-ELCA member (raised in ELCA, 30+years) and just left after an implosion at my ELCA Church in 2008 over differing beliefs, and joined WELS. I woke up the morning after the ELCA Conference to hear the news and rejoiced that I was no longer part of that circus. Thanks be to God for a Lutheran Church body that preaches the Word--Wisconsin Synod! That's my kind of Lutheran!
whether or not you are ECLA or whatever, one point we can ALL agree on, is not all lutherans are the same. There are LUTHERAN pastors who don't believe in christ, the resurrection, and things like that. And there is a difference between evil people and evil doctrines. I know all people are sinful, but a church or synod is evil if the sin seeps into the doctrines they teach. for instance, baptism. if your church teaches baptism is a symbol, then sin has corrupted your doctrine.
Why are you busting on the ELCA? Defining oneself in the negative is a sign of weakness. Lutherans are good at self-depreciation.....however you crossed the line into dogging on other people. Unless the Missouri Synod has reached a state of perfect grace, then you need to be doing work on your own denomination.
@Okiepastor76 Actually, defining one's self in the negative is simply a form of...well...defining one's self... Then there's how you went about criticizing Hans for criticizing... Well I know I can be a hypocrite and since it takes one to know one I'd call that hypocritical and I mean that with as much truth and love as I, a sinner, can give haha. Anyway, peace out!
New to Lutheranism (LCMS) and thankful we found it. Left 33 years of evangelical/non-denominational/charismatic teachings and really got tired of the "agree to disagree" mentality instead of sticking to the Word. Lots of itching ears out there; and lots of pastors willing to preach a different gospel to fill their churches. Love the Lutheran satire.
Dear ELCA people: as an ELCA-er myself, I can say a number of you have failed at this argument. Why does everyone in my denomination argue for women's ordination from a base of power? Ordained ministry is not, despite many peoples' ideas to the contrary, about power or authority. If you are going to make an argument, it better be predicated off of servanthood instead of authority!
@john91722 Perhaps reading the catechism in light of Jesus' teaching to the Apostles about what it means to be an Apostle would clarify what I mean (John 13, specifically v.13-15). My denomination sees power and authority in almost entirely temporal and political terms. What Christ (and Luther) has in mind is a bit different.
@mandyho - anyone can do good things for other people. That doesn't make them godly.
Standing up for the oppressed? More like standing up for sin. So God created people to be homosexual? I'm wondering, then why he didn't make Steve for Adam.
@LadyAibrean Oh, Adam and Steve... never heard that one. How original of you... Why would anyone choose a life in which they knew they would be ridiculed and hated for who they are and who they love?
@mandyho13 Well... a Christian. Because God called them and chose them. However the perversion of sexuality when it comes to homosexuality (or beasteality or pornography or pediphelia et al) are clearly denounced in scripture as sin. Last I checked, sin causes death and we are to resist it. It is the enemy of God. It is the enemy of the Christian. Therefore when it is taught against, it should be stated just as wrong as the other perversions. To go against God is not to love.
"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked person from among you."
Yes, it's our responsibility to help with the accountability of those within the church. Otherwise you get the ELCA - people who are obviously living in habitual sin and being a horrible example of living a godly life.
@LadyAibrean Yes, those in the ELCA are wicked, vile people. They are out there doing mission work, helping feed the hungry, clothe the naked, stand up for the oppressed, and accepting others for who God created them to be. What an awful example of a godly life! God should really strike them down....
@mandyho13 Just curious. I have Bahai friends who do all the works you mentioned above. They are kind, don't drink or smoke, they are truly good people. By man's definition of good that is. Now they don't believe in Jesus so are they just being what God created them to be; non-believers. Also, when people break the law and the cop pulls them over, do you think they could get away with telling the officer, "you're so judgmental?"
@mandyho13, very sadly, I read words very like yours in Matthew 25 "‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?"
So you're uncomfortable with the idea that the ELCA members are vile and sinful people? Though we're not in the ELCA, we're not comfortable with the fact that we are sinners, but we know it's true. Accuse us. It's true.
I pray you could know Christ's word for you instead of relying upon your own works.
@LadyAibrean You know, no one has even uttered a harsh word about the Missouri synod on here, yet the ELCA has repeatedly been bashed over and over. Honestly, who wants to join a church that just bashes other churches? Like it or not, we ARE the body of Christ, doing our best to live out his call to us. Why don't you start spending more time and energy doing good rather than telling everyone else how they are doing it wrong.
@mandyho13 In a way you're right. I'm LCMS and honestly, there are a lot of LINO (lutheran in name only) people just like there are many CINO's as well. Here however, since this is a specific video against some of the doctrine of the ELCA it would be logical that the debate would circle around them. It wouldn't make sense to change a topic to cream puffs no matter how delectible they are. Hopefuly the Christians here can convey criticism in truth and love.
@mandyho - The whole Bible is the Word of God. Since Paul was sent by Jesus and the words are the inerrant Word of God, I don't see the teachings to be separate.
Jesus was here to save people from their sins. He didn't "accept" sin. When he dined with sinners it was to lead them to salvation - not accept their lifestyle.
@LadyAibrean We are all sinners. How are we to avoid all of these sinners when we ALL are sinners and all sin in many different ways? We are not here to judge others and their sins... That is up to God. We are here to spread the Good News and live our lives in loving reaction to what Jesus has done for us... saved us.
@mandyho13 What you are in fact saying is that since everyone is a sinner, there is no way that we can tell somebody that their behavior is wrong. What you have written is about the worst parenting advice you can give anybody.
@mandyho13 If God is our Father, and if you want to emulate His love, wouldn't the advice you give be similar to how you would expect people to raise their children? Seems to me, you prefer the "just love 'em" mentality but let them figure out sin on their own. "We are all sinners" after all, so we shouldn't judge our children and their sins, it might hurt their feelings if we tell them what they are doing wrong...you may not think you are saying this, but you really are.
@hahnbd No, I'm really not saying all that... you are reading too far into this and have totally gone away from my original point. I am not here to judge others. God will do that. But Jesus has asked to love others--care for those in need, accept others in need of acceptance, fight for justice, and so on. I wish you could see more of God's grace instead of only being concerned with God's law.
@mandyho13 The problem is, we do not share an understanding of what Law or Gospel is. When I read your post, "Jesus has asked to love others..." Orthodox Lutheranism has defined this as Law Language falling under the "New Obedience" in the Book of Concord. (The Book of Concord which neither speaks on women's ordination or homosexuality). So when we talk about loving our neighbor, it's for the sake of the Gospel that we do this, not because love gives us the freedom to live our lives as we want
It's very Christian not accept sin as well and treating sin as though it's not, and most especially when the sin is within the church.
1 Cor 5:11 "But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one."
It's a shame that I was totally on board with your videos until this one, especially since they create such a strawman of ELCA practice. Once you got past homosexuality and interfaith worship (which was likely a prayer service), you listed things I've never heard of the ELCA approving. I don't know anyone in the ELCA who would think these are good ideas. Moreover, as a student at a left-leaning ELCA seminary, I can tell you many of my colleagues would also have a problem with these things.
Furthermore its satire based on a frustration that some have with dealing with those who have abandon Lutheranism in all except the name. You can call your self the quess of Siam for all i care but it does not mean you are. And for all your progressive attributes your just as haughty and arrogant as those whom you say are. You can't see it because your synod has poison you and you love it. The truth is its even futile to debate this topic with you, and its ok because i dont expect you too.
I have read all the comments on this video and seeing mandy is on the biggest supporters of woman ordination I ask you to consider the topic and read the bible and the church fathers more closely and to abandon your post modern, 21st century perspective and look to see why it is. Of course mandy I don't expect you to and thats ok you can go living in your rainbow world where your the god of it and your ego and sense of what right and wrong is. Just dont call your self Lutheran
I'm an ELCA pastor and really enjoyed Episodes 1 and 2 but this one is not funny at all. I still hope we can work together as brother's and sisters in Christ in spite of our differences. This one was a bit mean spirited in my opinion. Too bad you chose to go this route. It brings more hurt than healing and understanding.
@spiritandflesh If you are an ELCA pastor and are not trying to leave the ELCA after their most recent synodical gathering, then you are a heretic and not a Christian.
@hahnbd I'm making an effort to live my life as Jesus would want... loving others, even people like you, thought it's quite difficult. It's not our job to condemn others... God is the one who will judge us. It's pretty self-righteous of you to say God won't listen to me. What makes you think God wouldn't listen to someone who is praying to God? I may not agree with what you may pray for, but I would never say God does not listen to you.
@mandyho13 Read 1 John 5:14-15, we must pray in accordance to the will of God, but how can you with confidence know that you are praying according to His will, when you stand in judgment of His will towards social issues?
To Lutheran Satire: my great sadness is the way you have condemned entire groups in your latest video. The Buddhists are not responding because they are too busy praying for you. The Methodist, gays, elephants, and whomever else you chose to degrade, who knows, perhaps you will hear from them. The women respond because they've, sadly, had so many opportunities to do so.
@gratiasola My remark about your mysogynicstic tendencies was based on my 'observation' of the way you treated the women in this thread. It has been my experience that those who hate an entire group of people (anti-Semites, homophobes, Anti-Christians, racists, ) often say in rebuttal "Why No...some of my best friends are....Jews, gay, Christians, blacks, women.... So, an observation, and if in error, an apology. If not, perhaps some searching of the heart is in order.
@lmlcpastor Let's be serious - this debate is not about anybody being a misogynist. One side is about women's rights at all costs, the other about adherence to the letter of the scripture, at all costs. The only person hating women here is, as @thelutheransatire points out, a straw man.
@konfessionalist My remark about the misogynist was and is based on the way I observed the way the women on this thread were being treated.
I was raised LCMS, but am thankful that I serve the ELCA, proud of the way it lives out our Gospel reading from 2 Lent. God loves the whole world, indeed, and does not send the Son to condemn it. And by the way, does not call us to condemn it either.
God does not send women pastors. Why would you discriminate against God's Word so boldly by claiming to be God's ambassador? And to say Paul's words have less authority than Jesus words! - this is to deny the whole pastoral office in the first place (as the Father has sent Me, so I send you). A woman pretending to be a pastor is like a man pretending to be a mother. It is immoral, heterodox and perverts the order of creation. It is not to be tolerated in the church of Jesus Christ.
@gratiasola I must disagree. There is one Savior, Jesus. Paul was not the Son of God, but one who came after to testify to Christ crucified. If we hold Paul's words (human words, though divinely inspired) with the same authority as the words of Jesus (Son of God), we put Paul on the same plane as God, which, as I understand, would be idolatry and thus breaking the First Commandment, as well and Jesus' Greatest Commandment.
@jlh2081 What part of "Whoever hears you hears Me" is unclear? I don't understand. I forgive sins by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ. Nobody can say, "Your forgiveness isn't as good as Jesus'". That would false (Reformed) doctrine. Paul was an apostle by the will of Jesus Christ. God spoke through him as through Moses. Once again, should we disagree with Paul, who is an apostle of God? If you don't listen to him, you're not listening to Jesus. That is breaking the 3rd commandment.
@gratiasola That's pretty arrogant of you, to know the will of God... I believe God can call whomever God chooses. Why is it such a threat to you to think that a woman can be a pastor? Seriously. What is it about being a male that makes one worthy of sharing the good news?
@mandyho13 lol. Arrogant to know that what God says is true? That adultery, stealing, murder, etc are against God's will? Seriously. Why make it personal by saying that women pastors are a threat to me? Why is God's word such a threat to you? Why be filled with animosity against God's will revealed in the Scriptures? Who taught you to reject Paul's words? Jesus?the one who sent Paul and gave him his authority? Stop the hate! Love! Stop the discrimination against Paul!
@gratiasola Well since you know the will of God, tell me, why is it that God does not want women to be pastors? I am not threatened by God's word... I'm just not a fool to take everything at face value and read the bible in black and white rather than leaving room for interpretation and consideration of why something may be written as it is.
@mandyho13 Mandy, that's quite beside the point. I could recite "The Female of the Species" by Rudyard Kipling, which might give some interesting answers from Natural Law, but that wouldn't be the answer. The point is that God says so. I can rely on Him. Who am I to question him? May I think He is a fool for forbidding women to teach or usurp authority over men in the churches? What gives me the right to reject His apostle? Is your interpretation to reject Paul's authority on this matter?
@gratiasola You are a child of God. That is who you are to question. I am not questioning God, but I am questioning Paul. And I don't care how you turn it or spin it, Paul is NOT God.
@mandyho13 Paul speaks God's word. That's how Paul spins it, Mandy. For the same reason that you believe Matthew, Mark, Luke and John you believe Paul. "Whoever hears you hears Me." You are questioning God's apostle. What gives you the right to do that? Could it be that you have a problem with authority? This is not good, Mandy. Christians shouldn't claim that they can reject the authority of an angel (messenger) of God.
@gratiasola So we shouldn't question the texts that speak in favor of slavery? If we shouldn't question scripture, why did it need to be edited by men? Why is every last little ounce that was "inspired by God" not in the bible?
@mandyho13 "In favor of slavery?" You gotta show me this. The Scripture can't be broken. Jesus said that about the Old Testament after many very minor editions. Let's believe Jesus! He's so right on! We can rely on God's Word! It won't deceive us! If God gave it with His Spirit, then we didn't receive something that can change, can err, can be wrong. God doesn't lie. He speaks to us the truth.
@gratiasola No, God does not lie, but men (humankind) do. And the Word was put in the hands of men, and therefore, it is our right and duty to discern what is truth. It is not as clear cut and dry and you would like it to be. Things were written for a reason, addressing certain situations that were being faced at the time. I seek the truth in His Word, but I don't take it for granted that it is in black in white. Sometimes its between the lines.
@gratiasola and yet somehow I think God will forgive my "heinous sin" of trying to spread of Good News of Jesus Christ as a female pastor(heavy dose of sarcasm in the former sentence, in case you were wondering)..in fact didn't Jesus have something to say to his disciples when they got all onry about "non disciples" casting out demons and healing in his name...
@cmbmsu . You practice this sacrilege in open defiance of the Word of God. It is rebellion against your Lord. You have no call to preach in Christ's name, you have the call to be a priest, confessing Christ's name in whatever vocation God puts you in. You should fear God's anger since He does not take it lightly when His Word is ignored. "The Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain." "God threatens to punish all who break these commandments," therefore what should we do?
@gratiasola then I guess all that is left for me is to beg for God's mercy, which is vast and limitless and have faith that Jesus death for the forgiveness of sin was not in vain.
@cmbmsu What was it that Jesus said to the woman? "Go and sin no more." How can you teach others to trust in God's grace to reform their lives when you refuse to reform your behavior according to the Word of God? This is wrong on so many levels.
@gratiasola If I recall correctly, before Jesus tells her to "go and sin no more," we should read the entirety of the story. Jesus also tells all her accusers ‘Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.' When all of her accusers walked away (they didn't dare pick up a stone) he also told this to the woman: ‘Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?’ 11She said, ‘No one, sir.’* And Jesus said, ‘Neither do I condemn you.'
@jlh2081 Totally, I agree! This means we should never tell anybody that he has sinned, but then we should tell him to go and sin no more... (pardon my poor attempt at sarcasm). I apologize if my salt has too much flavor. Isn't God a loving God to give to His church the pastoral office! Why can't we accept a gift from God as He gives it, instead of doubting His apostle and relying more on Marxist distinctions of class warfare than Biblical distinctions on the order of creation?
@gratiasola I am signing off. But before I do, I leave you with this. I believe, as you say you do, that God in Jesus has died for me and my sinfulness, as well as for you and your sinfulness. God sent God's only Son for all creation, so that sin and death will not have the final say over us.
@gratiasola Knowing I have received this gift, not by my own doing, but by the boundless grace and mercy of God, I life my life, each and every day, as a beloved and blessed child of God, living out my faith and striving to be EXACTLY who God created me to be. And God has called me to be a daughter, sister, wife, friend, Christ-follower, Pastor. Thanks be to God.
@jlh2081 You can use masculine pronouns, you know! God does! And you can confess that before men. But you're not allowed to preach it, sister.God says no.That's the Law.Live out your faith by listening to your Lord. God does not call you to be a pastor. You can't thank God for doing something He didn't do. Are you a Christian? Then be exactly that! You can listen to your Lord, get out of the pulpit, give back the stoles, step away from the altar, and rejoice that God made you a woman! ; )
@gratiasola Indeed the Church and the One who called her have equipped and ordained her to preach it. Centuries of patriarchal proof texting have tried to say otherwise, but the Holy Spirit is stronger than any mysogynist, which ultimately is what this conversation is about, You may love God, but you hate women, and that is something you will need to search deeply within yourself to resolve.
@lmlcpastor LOL. Hate women? You will rarely meet a man who loves women more! "Centuries of Patriarchal proof-texting?" Ma'am or Sir, what's wrong with Paul? What's wrong with believing your Lord's apostle? The real issue is whether one thinks it's permissible to reject Christ's apostle. Whoever rejects him rejects Him who sent Him. The issue is the Bible's and our Lord's authority.
By the way, maybe our mother Sarah was a patriarchal proof-texter. She did call her husband "lord."
@gratiasola My comment about your mysogynicstic tendencies were based on the way I was "observing" your treatment of the women on this thread. It has been my experience that those minds that hate an entire group (Anti-semites, Anti-Christians, Homophobics, Racists) will often say in rebuttal "But no! Some of my best friends are....jews, Christians, gay, black, women.... So, if I am off mark, my apologies, if not, again, perhaps some heart searching.
@lmlc So what exactly are my misogynistic tendencies? Could you make your judgments a little clearer? What have I done or said that indicates that I hate women? This is a serious accusation! I hold to the doctrine of Paul, the apostle whom the Son of God, Jesus Christ, sent. He says that women should be silent in the churches and that women should not teach or usurp authority over a man. This is what has guided my very loving attitude toward women who mistakenly think that they are pastors.
@gratiasola They are not mistaken. They are pastors, whether you approve or not. So if women are to be silent in church, why is it that you allow them to teach Sunday School? Why do you contradict the doctrine of Paul????
@mandyho13 It isn't a matter of whether or not human beings approve. Just because you claim they are Pastors does not mean that God views them as such. The very fact that they are openly defying Scripture, the Word, suggests that they are in opposition to God on the matter. As for why women are allowed to speak and teach in the Church is a matter of understanding the context which Paul speaks. Paul spoke concerning order in the church. It does not change the requirements for a Pastor.
@gratiasola The words you speak are hurtful and offensive; not just the words you speak to me, a sister in Christ, but to all who have entered into discussion here. But mostly, my heart is sad. You may call that a victory for your cause, that is fine. But I know who God made me. In my baptism I was given the gift of the Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit Jesus gave to each of his disciples. And that Holy Spirit, God's Spirit, leads me to preach God's word.
@jlh2081 The Law kills. You, more than others, should know this. It doesn't make you happy. It is God's law that you are not a pastor. I have no malice against you. Every Christian is made a priest in baptism, but baptism isn't ordination. Baptism doesn't entitle one to exercise authority over a congregation. This is a variation of the Anabaptist error, which you should also reject. But instead of addressing my arguments you complain that my words are hurtful. What have I said that is wrong?
@gratiasola You make a valid point, as well. Perhaps I will step out of the pulpit, give away my stoles. They don't make me a pastor. God does. And I will rejoice in the God who created me. I will rejoice in the God who calls me, loves me, equips me each and every day to be a Minister of Word and Sacrament.
@jlh2081 How can God make you a pastor when He forbids women to teach in the Church? Do you teach that your modern opinions should be obeyed rather than the word of Christ's apostle Paul? How can you exalt yourself above Jesus' apostle and then claim to be Jesus' minister? Please explain this to me. Meaning no hurt at all - gratiasola
@jlh2081 In fact, the Lord has not called you to the office of Pastor because His word clearly denies you that office as it denies all women the authoritative offices of elder-shepherd or deacon.
Scripture is the standard, not your subjective feelings of fairness and personal desires
@jlh2081 In fact, the Lord has not called you to the office of Pastor because His word clearly denies you that office as it denies all women the authoritative offices of elder-shepherd.
Scripture is the standard, not your subjective feelings of fairness and personal desires
@jlh2081 In fact, the Lord has not called you to the office of Pastor because His word clearly denies you that office as it denies all women the authoritative offices of elder-shepherd.
Scripture is the standard, not your subjective feelings of fairness and personal desires
@jlh2081 In fact, the Lord has not called you to the office of Pastor because His word clearly denies you that office as it denies all women the authoritative offices of elder-shepherd.
Scripture is the standard, not your subjective feelings of fairness and personal desires
@gratiasola Guess you will be fearing too since Jesus said "Judge not lest ye be judged." You say stop the hate one moment, and then you spew this vile hatred.
@mandyho13 lol. vile hatred? wow. WRONG interpretation! I love you, Mandy! Jesus loves you too. He just doesn't want women to be pastors. His Word and will are clear, even when the world's and ours aren't. We can rely on the Word of God! This is the most wonderful treasure a Christians has and something Lutherans especially teach with all its power!
@gratiasola Yes, the Word of God is a wonderful treasure and needs to be treated as such. That's why God calls us to read AND discern the word. You may think the bible is clear in women not wanting to be pastors, but I don't see it that way along with MANY other Christians. I would rather err on the side of love and beg forgiveness.
@mandyho13 . It's not loving to question the authority of Paul. To tell Christians that Paul's Word is less divine than Jesus' is to call into question everything that Paul says, including that forgiveness that we Lutherans know more clearly than any other denomination. You wouldn't be erring on the side of love, you would be erring on the side of the world, Mandy. Love is defined by the law of God. Love does no harm to the neighbor. Teaching people to doubt Paul's word harms our neighbor.
It's quite clear to me that those who have been posting lately don't understand the position of those who oppose women's ordination. I'm more than happy to have a straw-man free conversation with anyone who's interested. But I find the comment thread here to be unsuitable for such a discussion. Anyone who so desires, shoot me an email at pastorfiene@gmail.com.
@TheLutheranSatire You are right, I don't understand, and I never will. I frankly don't ever care to. As an seminary educated, called and currently serving a wonderful congregation female ELCA pastor, I resent the fact that the church is one of the few places still allowed to practice discrimination based on gender, orientation, socio economic status and belief. Thanks for reminding me of what I hope the ELCA never bcomes
@TheLutheranSatire As a seminary educated, M.Div holding, ordained female pastor currently serving in the ELCA, I second cmbmsu's opinion. I'm thankful for the churches that welcome ALL God's children to teach and preach, serve and minister, live and love, exactly how God created them to be.
@TheLutheranSatire While I appreciate your willingness to discuss this, I'm going to have to agree to disagree. Actually, to me, this video serves more as reasons why to be in the ELCA.
once (more like 50 times) i visited a congregation where the pastor, he of great import, failed miserably in mumbling anything even resembling the gospel.
then, another time, i visited a congregation and heard a woman proclaim the gospel of the resurrected, living christ with integrity, honesty and relevance.
i really wish god would have given her a penis so i could feel better about whether the bible supports such action.
I find it disturbing that there seems to be more authority placed upon Paul than on Jesus himself. To reiterate a point made by another, Jesus never once said that women were unworthy to serve as priest or pastor. I am also reminded that the very first preachers of the resurrection were, in fact women...women who had the courage to go to the tomb in the first place, the women who had the courage to tell those disciples IN HIDING exactly what Jesus would have them do.
@chazlehmann No, of course not. But do you truly believe women do not have a right to serve as a church leader? As pastor? Women were clearly important to Jesus and were amongst his "inner circle" in a time when that would be unaccepted. Women have the ability and right to serve as church leaders as much as men do.
YA, I think I'll take my open arms, loving others as they are, ELCA Lutherans anyday. You can keep your repression of women and unacceptance of others to yourself.
@TheLutheranSatire I think that question has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm sorry that you feel that women should not be ordained, because Jesus clearly felt women were just as important and vital to ministry as men. Who did he first show himself to after he rose from the dead? Oh, that's right... Women. Besides, God did not establish the "rules" of who should and should not be leaders of the church, men on this earth did that.
The point about the OT priesthood is that God ordered that only the Levites were to be priests, which left out the other 11 tribes. In the same way, I'm arguing, based on 1st Timothy 2, 1 Corinthians 14 and Ephesians 5, that God has ordered that only qualified men are to serve as pastors. So if it wasn't discrimination in the OT, why does it suddenly becomes discrimination in the NT?
@TheLutheranSatire There are A LOT of things that happen in the OT that totally get thrown out in the NT. Show me where Jesus says only qualified men are to serve as pastors. If it was that important, don't you think Jesus would've said only men are to be pastors?
The Words of Christ, through the mouth of His apostle Paul, explicitly state in 1 Timothy 2 that women are not to teach or have authority over men and, in 1 Timothy 3, that overseers (pastors) are to be men who are above reproach, able to teach, and not given to a number of vices.
1. Jesus' actions speak clear enough. When it came to selecting the 12, He selected all men. Furthermore, He doesn't specifically address women acting as priests/pastors for the same reason He doesn't specifically address auto insurance fraud. Neither of those things are happening among the Jews. But women acting as priests does happen among the gentiles. That's why Paul specifically addresses it.
2. Jesus Himself chose Paul to be an apostle and to speak with His authority. I find it hard to believe that the Son of God who knows all things would pick an apostle who is going to go rogue and try to pass off as his own personal opinions the will of God Almighty.
3. Had Paul been binding the Church to a practice that was contrary to God's will, the other apostles would have rebuked him, as Paul did to Peter. That didn't happen.
@mandyho13 "[Paul's] words were not infallible." There's the rub. You deny that Paul spoke by God's authority and you thus deny the Holy Scriptures and God's authority. This is a horrible sin and has led your churches to accept all manner of wickedness. Professing to be wise you have become fools and can't even tell the difference between right and wrong anymore while you exult in a love that covers sin not with the blood of Christ, but the license of Sodom. Are we wrong to believe Paul?
@gratiasola Whoa... First of all, get off your high horse. Secondly, I am merely saying its possible that this was not God's intention. Actually, strike that. I firmly believe it was not God's intention for women to be "slient" as Paul says. Are you wrong to believe Paul? No. But you are wrong to think that this small verse is the basis of excluding women in ministry.
4. If you can't trust the words of Paul in once place, you can't trust them anywhere else. So throwing out 1 Timothy 2 means you must also throw out our clearest texts on justification, sanctification, the substitutionary atonement, the resurrection of the body, baptism, the Lord's Supper, Christian love, etc...As well as the entire Gospels of Mark and Luke, as they both received their instruction through Paul.
@TheLutheranSatire Okay...but if we take 1 Tim to it's end...then why do we have female sunday school teachers? Perhaps if we have female sunday school teachers, we should only have them teach classes of girls? We wouldn't want a female teacher to have any authority over anyone of "value" after all...and please...if we are going to talk about overseers(pastors) being above reproach and not given to a number of vices somehow chauvinism and outright discrimination seem to be problems.
Sunday School teachers teach children. And, to echo my buddy Chaz, if you think that women only have value to the church if they're serving as pastors, I think that's about as chauvinistic of a position as one can take on the issue.
So female sunday school teachers can warp the minds of innocent impressionable children but can't study, interpret and then preach the Word of God to grown men(and women, if they are even allowed in the sanctuary) And just so we are crystal clear....I think women and men can do whatever they feel a call to for a vocation. It is not my role or right to limit God's call to preach and teach on the basis of gender
@TheLutheranSatire 1 Timothy is not considered to have been written by Paul, but is rather attributed to him. Second, as a Lutheran, you know that women ARE to have authority over men as mothers, as ordered in the fourth commandment. Third, as a Lutheran, you know that there is no one who is above reproach. Oops, forgot that this forum isn't helpful to you. Shutting up now.
@GestasLeftcross Um...wow that's a new one. Mothers are in charge based on the 4th commandment? Yikes...it says honor your Father and your Mother...and why is Father first? You've given a new interpretation and forcing it on the text!
@hahnbd Please refer to the Large Catechism in the Book of Concord, under the Fourth Commandment. I will quote from the Wengert/Kolb translation: "God has given this walk of life, fatherhood and motherhood, a special position of honor, higher than that of any other walk of life under it. Not only has he commanded us to love parents but to honor them... he distinguishes father and mother above all other persons on earth, and places them next to himself." (page 400, paragraph 105)
@hahnbd See also the LC 405.141: "... we must mention the sort of obedience due to superiors, persons whose duty it is to command and to govern. For all other authority is derived and developed out of the authority of parents." Women has authority over men in motherhood; if you have a mother, she has authority over you (and all men have mothers). I assume I simply didn't make my point clear.
@hahnbd Additionally, assuming you are a Christian, I strongly suggest you consider what "new interpretation" means, unless you reject the letters of Paul, who clearly reinterpreted the entirety of Scripture in his effort to explain the salvation of God in Jesus despite the crucifixion. Simply shouting that something is a new interpretation actually isn't a very good argument in the Christian context. More effective is the question, does this interpretation further love of God and neighbor?
@GestasLeftcross Your original post stated, "Second, as a Lutheran, you know that women ARE to have authority over men as mothers, as ordered in the fourth commandment." Mothers do not have authority over Fathers. That was my point. Now that you explain yourself better, I see you are talking about a woman's authority over boys and girls. It is a clear stretch on your part to use this example to go over and against God's command to Eve. Clearly, Eve raised boys too.
@hahnbd Are you now saying that women can have authority over their sons only until they are grown? This does not mesh with Luther's explanation. I will ignore your comment about Adam and Eve for the moment, since it only applies to husbands, and the statement I am interested in refuting is "women are not to teach or have authority over men." This concept is clearly counter to Luther's interpretation of authority, held by men and women, as outlined in the fourth commandment.
@GestasLeftcross You erroneously apply the 4th commandment over and against the authority placed on Adam which St. Paul refers to in the new testament. You are guilty of chronocentrism...applying our context to Luther, the confessions, and to the scriptures. If you can't see this, then there's nothing I can do for you.
@hahnbd First: what part of what Paul writes are you referring to? Because I can simply claim that he said something, too. Secondly: what authority placed on Adam? You haven't identified this. You're assuming a lot in your interpretation. Thirdly: chronocentrism is that OUR time is the lens through which to view all of Scripture. The exact opposite of this is to view Scripture as historically incarnate, which is what I prefer.
@hahnbd Fourth: If you know anything about Luther's writings, you would see (as I outlined above) that for him all human authority is rooted in that 4th commandment. If you are not Lutheran, we can have that conversation, but otherwise you're going to have to deal with the Book of Concord at some point. Fifth: in what way was I applying "our context to Luther"? I reported what Luther said, how he exegeted the commandments. That's just using historical documents, which you are doing as well.
@hahnbd Sixth: I posit to you that the curse placed on Adam and Eve were descriptive, not commandments. Seventh: I posit to you that if Scripture can be quoted to support slavery, you need a better basis than a passage from Timothy to demonstrate reasons women should not hold authority over men. Eighth: If you think women should not hold authority over men, you need to leave this country, because women hold public office here. If that is different, why?
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WhiteShoreFilms 1 week ago
Hmmm...So, not the sort of Lutheran who believes that God loves everyone, but the type of Lutheran who allows discrimination.
MrPawnman99 3 weeks ago
@MrPawnman99 A good Lutheran follows the Word, the result of which Jesus warned us. Holding to the Truth will divide families and cause believers to be hated as He was. Speaking the Truth is not showing discrimination, rather a desire to spread the pure Word of God. If some choose not to hear than we move on. (Mt10:14) Also, Psalm 5: 4-5 tells us that God does hate some people.
thewordrules 3 days ago in playlist Liked videos
that shits cra
jerebear237 1 month ago
wait. Who publicly apologized for the apostles because of their fishing, and who would make Karl Marx a saint?
JohnTheHutDweller 1 month ago in playlist More videos from TheLutheranSatire
It is unchristian to exclude people and be mean to them and not let them share in the word of God. Not to sound cheesy but WWJD?
mconklin3love 1 month ago
@mconklin3love "Fairness" and "kindness" should never get in the way of truth. The actual truth of what the Bible says is more important than how people might feel. It is more "unChristian" to trust our own feelings more than we trust the Word. (See Prov. 28:26.)
UltimateMastodon 1 month ago
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mconklin3love 1 month ago
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Macmadgram 2 months ago
This video reminded me of how that kind of Lutheranism (which I was born and baptized into) helped make me fear believing the wrong thing. So much emphasis in Lutheranism is put on being right and it seems it was more important to believe the absolute right thing on every nitpicking hairsplitting point of theology than it was to develop any kind of loving faith. I also found so much condescension on the part of Missouri Synod Lutherans towards those of other Lutheran synods.
Macmadgram 2 months ago
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And, of course, there was even more condescension towards other protestant religions. We were always told what made us superior, how we MS Lutherans were right on this point and that point. It gave me a lot of pain.
Macmadgram 2 months ago
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Baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is the initiatory sign and seal into the covenant of grace. As circumcision referred to the cutting away of sin and to a change of heart (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4; 9:25,26; Ezk.44:7,9) baptism refers to the washing away of sin (Acts 2:38; 1 Pet. 3:21; Tit. 3:5) and to spiritual renewal (Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:11-12). The circumcision of the heart is signified by the circumcision of the flesh, that is, baptism (Col. 2:11-12).
Taiwan1997 4 months ago
One last thought: If someone maintains that baptism is necessary for salvation, is he adding a work, his own, to the finished work of Christ? If the answer is yes, then that person would be in terrible risk of not being saved. If the answer is no, then why is baptism maintained as being necessary the same way as the Jews maintained that works were necessary?
Taiwan1997 4 months ago
@Taiwan1997 Baptism is not our work. It is God's work to us, joining us with Christ, forgiving our original sin, connecting us to Christ's death and resurrection, making us sons of God, now saving us, and saving us through the washing of rebirth and renewal of the Holy Spirit. You can find these references in Romans, Titus, 1Peter, 1Corinthians.
MarcusAndrewWilliams 3 months ago
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@MarcusAndrewWilliams
Baptism is your work if you are adding it as a work towards salvation as with communion. When you are born again you don't lose your salvation because that is a work of God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit cannot fail. You will have to keep your faith in the flesh by doing your religious rites. Repent and believe the gospel.
Taiwan1997 3 months ago
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Taiwan1997 4 months ago
Satire?... funny...
biry0501 4 months ago
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musicmuse202 4 months ago
great vid! also, love the background.
DarthGanondorf00772 4 months ago
I liked the ending where you refer all complaints to our Bishop, Hanson. He seems like a nice guy. I have only met him a few times while my church was closing. (Want to buy a church in Waukesha, WI? Call Bishop Hanson's office) HeHe.
rainbowheartlove1 5 months ago
This is just a horrible, horrible post.
1105Chance 5 months ago
Are you aware that the church in front of which these characters are standing is techinically, at least according to you Missouri folks. no longer a Lutheran church but a Union church (i.e. mixed or united Lutherans with Reformed)? Guess they're "not my kind of Lutheran" either.
NixonisLord 5 months ago
He keeps saying "...along with the Ancient Christian Faith...." Should he come right out and say, "The Orthodox Christian Church", since that's precisely what it is....?
guavaberry1952 6 months ago
You and the ELCA deserve each other, arguing about who has the right invisible friend. You're both shrinking away to nothing.
NixonisLord 6 months ago
"No-I belong to the REAL Lutheran church. The one that thinks gays are real icky and that women shouldn't claim to talk to the Invisible One because of an Iron Age text written by people nobody's ever met." "And no-I'm NOT being sarcastic and yes, I do expect to be taken seriously. Even though we've changed our minds before, that was different."
NixonisLord 6 months ago
Thanks for clearing this up.
carolineislands 6 months ago
Inquire no more you feral beast!!!
thetownsquare 8 months ago
ELCA ROCKS!! I love the woman!!!! She's my kind of human!
mirfir 8 months ago
ELCA ROCKS!!
mirfir 8 months ago
There is a divide between many denominations, where some get away from preaching Christ Crucified, Died and Resurrected, neglect or down play the Sacraments, get tired of preaching on the forgiveness of sin and move towards the concept of political areas. The distinction as to the Kingdom of the Left and the Kingdom of the Right comes into play.
john91722 9 months ago
"NYET!"
BlackCalvinist 9 months ago
ELCA = LINO
Lutheran In Name Only
john91722 9 months ago 3
I am an ex-ELCA member (raised in ELCA, 30+years) and just left after an implosion at my ELCA Church in 2008 over differing beliefs, and joined WELS. I woke up the morning after the ELCA Conference to hear the news and rejoiced that I was no longer part of that circus. Thanks be to God for a Lutheran Church body that preaches the Word--Wisconsin Synod! That's my kind of Lutheran!
Kitty06040 9 months ago 8
I'm lcms this is my kind of lutheran (look it up)
202saphira 9 months ago
Not my kind of Lutheran!!!
MrWelsluth 10 months ago
As an Orthodox Presbyterian, my hat is off to y'all! I get at least as many of the same things assuming I'm PCUSA. Bravo!
CounterTheory 10 months ago 3
I am the type of lutheran the pastor depicted is. WELS. and proud to be so.
AnthonyRF1996 10 months ago 2
whether or not you are ECLA or whatever, one point we can ALL agree on, is not all lutherans are the same. There are LUTHERAN pastors who don't believe in christ, the resurrection, and things like that. And there is a difference between evil people and evil doctrines. I know all people are sinful, but a church or synod is evil if the sin seeps into the doctrines they teach. for instance, baptism. if your church teaches baptism is a symbol, then sin has corrupted your doctrine.
AnthonyRF1996 10 months ago 2
Why are you busting on the ELCA? Defining oneself in the negative is a sign of weakness. Lutherans are good at self-depreciation.....however you crossed the line into dogging on other people. Unless the Missouri Synod has reached a state of perfect grace, then you need to be doing work on your own denomination.
Okiepastor76 10 months ago
@Okiepastor76 Actually, defining one's self in the negative is simply a form of...well...defining one's self... Then there's how you went about criticizing Hans for criticizing... Well I know I can be a hypocrite and since it takes one to know one I'd call that hypocritical and I mean that with as much truth and love as I, a sinner, can give haha. Anyway, peace out!
spectersparten 7 months ago
New to Lutheranism (LCMS) and thankful we found it. Left 33 years of evangelical/non-denominational/charismatic teachings and really got tired of the "agree to disagree" mentality instead of sticking to the Word. Lots of itching ears out there; and lots of pastors willing to preach a different gospel to fill their churches. Love the Lutheran satire.
thewordrules 10 months ago 2
Dear ELCA people: as an ELCA-er myself, I can say a number of you have failed at this argument. Why does everyone in my denomination argue for women's ordination from a base of power? Ordained ministry is not, despite many peoples' ideas to the contrary, about power or authority. If you are going to make an argument, it better be predicated off of servanthood instead of authority!
christhelutheran 10 months ago
@christhelutheran Please re-read the Keys of the Office description for Pastors in Luther's Small Catechism.
john91722 9 months ago
@john91722 Perhaps reading the catechism in light of Jesus' teaching to the Apostles about what it means to be an Apostle would clarify what I mean (John 13, specifically v.13-15). My denomination sees power and authority in almost entirely temporal and political terms. What Christ (and Luther) has in mind is a bit different.
christhelutheran 9 months ago
"The one that preformed a marrage for blessing...A hand full of sea monkeys" that was so funny
Tim00777 11 months ago
That's debatable.
Augsburg Confession
"The Church is the congregation of saints, in which the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments are rightly administered."
LadyAibrean 11 months ago
@mandyho - anyone can do good things for other people. That doesn't make them godly.
Standing up for the oppressed? More like standing up for sin. So God created people to be homosexual? I'm wondering, then why he didn't make Steve for Adam.
LadyAibrean 11 months ago 2
@LadyAibrean Oh, Adam and Steve... never heard that one. How original of you... Why would anyone choose a life in which they knew they would be ridiculed and hated for who they are and who they love?
mandyho13 11 months ago
@mandyho13 Well... a Christian. Because God called them and chose them. However the perversion of sexuality when it comes to homosexuality (or beasteality or pornography or pediphelia et al) are clearly denounced in scripture as sin. Last I checked, sin causes death and we are to resist it. It is the enemy of God. It is the enemy of the Christian. Therefore when it is taught against, it should be stated just as wrong as the other perversions. To go against God is not to love.
spectersparten 7 months ago
@mandyho 1 Cor 5:12-13
"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked person from among you."
Yes, it's our responsibility to help with the accountability of those within the church. Otherwise you get the ELCA - people who are obviously living in habitual sin and being a horrible example of living a godly life.
LadyAibrean 11 months ago
@LadyAibrean Yes, those in the ELCA are wicked, vile people. They are out there doing mission work, helping feed the hungry, clothe the naked, stand up for the oppressed, and accepting others for who God created them to be. What an awful example of a godly life! God should really strike them down....
mandyho13 11 months ago
@mandyho13 Just curious. I have Bahai friends who do all the works you mentioned above. They are kind, don't drink or smoke, they are truly good people. By man's definition of good that is. Now they don't believe in Jesus so are they just being what God created them to be; non-believers. Also, when people break the law and the cop pulls them over, do you think they could get away with telling the officer, "you're so judgmental?"
thewordrules 10 months ago
@mandyho13, very sadly, I read words very like yours in Matthew 25 "‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?"
So you're uncomfortable with the idea that the ELCA members are vile and sinful people? Though we're not in the ELCA, we're not comfortable with the fact that we are sinners, but we know it's true. Accuse us. It's true.
I pray you could know Christ's word for you instead of relying upon your own works.
ibnabraham 10 months ago
@LadyAibrean You know, no one has even uttered a harsh word about the Missouri synod on here, yet the ELCA has repeatedly been bashed over and over. Honestly, who wants to join a church that just bashes other churches? Like it or not, we ARE the body of Christ, doing our best to live out his call to us. Why don't you start spending more time and energy doing good rather than telling everyone else how they are doing it wrong.
mandyho13 11 months ago 2
@mandyho13 In a way you're right. I'm LCMS and honestly, there are a lot of LINO (lutheran in name only) people just like there are many CINO's as well. Here however, since this is a specific video against some of the doctrine of the ELCA it would be logical that the debate would circle around them. It wouldn't make sense to change a topic to cream puffs no matter how delectible they are. Hopefuly the Christians here can convey criticism in truth and love.
spectersparten 7 months ago
@mandyho - The whole Bible is the Word of God. Since Paul was sent by Jesus and the words are the inerrant Word of God, I don't see the teachings to be separate.
Jesus was here to save people from their sins. He didn't "accept" sin. When he dined with sinners it was to lead them to salvation - not accept their lifestyle.
LadyAibrean 11 months ago
@LadyAibrean We are all sinners. How are we to avoid all of these sinners when we ALL are sinners and all sin in many different ways? We are not here to judge others and their sins... That is up to God. We are here to spread the Good News and live our lives in loving reaction to what Jesus has done for us... saved us.
mandyho13 11 months ago
@mandyho13 What you are in fact saying is that since everyone is a sinner, there is no way that we can tell somebody that their behavior is wrong. What you have written is about the worst parenting advice you can give anybody.
hahnbd 11 months ago
@hahnbd Good thing I wasn't giving parenting advice then... you're really grabbing for straws there...
mandyho13 11 months ago
@mandyho13 If God is our Father, and if you want to emulate His love, wouldn't the advice you give be similar to how you would expect people to raise their children? Seems to me, you prefer the "just love 'em" mentality but let them figure out sin on their own. "We are all sinners" after all, so we shouldn't judge our children and their sins, it might hurt their feelings if we tell them what they are doing wrong...you may not think you are saying this, but you really are.
hahnbd 11 months ago
@hahnbd No, I'm really not saying all that... you are reading too far into this and have totally gone away from my original point. I am not here to judge others. God will do that. But Jesus has asked to love others--care for those in need, accept others in need of acceptance, fight for justice, and so on. I wish you could see more of God's grace instead of only being concerned with God's law.
mandyho13 11 months ago
@mandyho13 The problem is, we do not share an understanding of what Law or Gospel is. When I read your post, "Jesus has asked to love others..." Orthodox Lutheranism has defined this as Law Language falling under the "New Obedience" in the Book of Concord. (The Book of Concord which neither speaks on women's ordination or homosexuality). So when we talk about loving our neighbor, it's for the sake of the Gospel that we do this, not because love gives us the freedom to live our lives as we want
hahnbd 11 months ago
It's very Christian not accept sin as well and treating sin as though it's not, and most especially when the sin is within the church.
1 Cor 5:11 "But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one."
LadyAibrean 11 months ago
@LadyAibrean Yet Jesus did that exact thing all the time... Why does the words of Paul hold more weight for you than the teachings of JESUS?
mandyho13 11 months ago
It's a shame that I was totally on board with your videos until this one, especially since they create such a strawman of ELCA practice. Once you got past homosexuality and interfaith worship (which was likely a prayer service), you listed things I've never heard of the ELCA approving. I don't know anyone in the ELCA who would think these are good ideas. Moreover, as a student at a left-leaning ELCA seminary, I can tell you many of my colleagues would also have a problem with these things.
gestashatesyou 11 months ago
Furthermore its satire based on a frustration that some have with dealing with those who have abandon Lutheranism in all except the name. You can call your self the quess of Siam for all i care but it does not mean you are. And for all your progressive attributes your just as haughty and arrogant as those whom you say are. You can't see it because your synod has poison you and you love it. The truth is its even futile to debate this topic with you, and its ok because i dont expect you too.
jomocolo 11 months ago
I have read all the comments on this video and seeing mandy is on the biggest supporters of woman ordination I ask you to consider the topic and read the bible and the church fathers more closely and to abandon your post modern, 21st century perspective and look to see why it is. Of course mandy I don't expect you to and thats ok you can go living in your rainbow world where your the god of it and your ego and sense of what right and wrong is. Just dont call your self Lutheran
jomocolo 11 months ago
@jomocolo I don't.. I call myself Catholic :)
mandyho13 11 months ago
I'm an ELCA pastor and really enjoyed Episodes 1 and 2 but this one is not funny at all. I still hope we can work together as brother's and sisters in Christ in spite of our differences. This one was a bit mean spirited in my opinion. Too bad you chose to go this route. It brings more hurt than healing and understanding.
spiritandflesh 11 months ago
@spiritandflesh If you are an ELCA pastor and are not trying to leave the ELCA after their most recent synodical gathering, then you are a heretic and not a Christian.
hahnbd 11 months ago
@hahnbd Yep. It's very un-Christian to love and accept others. Jesus would be enraged to see this type of radical love.
Honestly, I pray for you. It's all I can do. Your views are so warped and so far from what Jesus wants from us.
mandyho13 11 months ago 11
@mandyho13 It's very un-Christian to lie about what love is in order to accept others. Don't pray for me, God won't listen to you.
hahnbd 11 months ago
@hahnbd I'm making an effort to live my life as Jesus would want... loving others, even people like you, thought it's quite difficult. It's not our job to condemn others... God is the one who will judge us. It's pretty self-righteous of you to say God won't listen to me. What makes you think God wouldn't listen to someone who is praying to God? I may not agree with what you may pray for, but I would never say God does not listen to you.
mandyho13 11 months ago
@mandyho13 Read 1 John 5:14-15, we must pray in accordance to the will of God, but how can you with confidence know that you are praying according to His will, when you stand in judgment of His will towards social issues?
hahnbd 11 months ago
@hahnbd Grow up!
spiritandflesh 11 months ago
@spiritandflesh To be like, you? I think not.
hahnbd 11 months ago
Grow up!
spiritandflesh 11 months ago
To Lutheran Satire: my great sadness is the way you have condemned entire groups in your latest video. The Buddhists are not responding because they are too busy praying for you. The Methodist, gays, elephants, and whomever else you chose to degrade, who knows, perhaps you will hear from them. The women respond because they've, sadly, had so many opportunities to do so.
lmlcpastor 11 months ago
@lmlcpastor I'm sure the Buddhists are not concerned. Let me know when the elephants are ready to respond, I look forward to seeing that.
tbirdpunk 11 months ago
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@gratiasola My remark about your mysogynicstic tendencies was based on my 'observation' of the way you treated the women in this thread. It has been my experience that those who hate an entire group of people (anti-Semites, homophobes, Anti-Christians, racists, ) often say in rebuttal "Why No...some of my best friends are....Jews, gay, Christians, blacks, women.... So, an observation, and if in error, an apology. If not, perhaps some searching of the heart is in order.
lmlcpastor 11 months ago
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croimakin 11 months ago
@lmlcpastor Let's be serious - this debate is not about anybody being a misogynist. One side is about women's rights at all costs, the other about adherence to the letter of the scripture, at all costs. The only person hating women here is, as @thelutheransatire points out, a straw man.
konfessionalist 11 months ago 4
@konfessionalist My remark about the misogynist was and is based on the way I observed the way the women on this thread were being treated.
I was raised LCMS, but am thankful that I serve the ELCA, proud of the way it lives out our Gospel reading from 2 Lent. God loves the whole world, indeed, and does not send the Son to condemn it. And by the way, does not call us to condemn it either.
lmlcpastor 11 months ago
God does not send women pastors. Why would you discriminate against God's Word so boldly by claiming to be God's ambassador? And to say Paul's words have less authority than Jesus words! - this is to deny the whole pastoral office in the first place (as the Father has sent Me, so I send you). A woman pretending to be a pastor is like a man pretending to be a mother. It is immoral, heterodox and perverts the order of creation. It is not to be tolerated in the church of Jesus Christ.
gratiasola 11 months ago 4
@gratiasola I must disagree. There is one Savior, Jesus. Paul was not the Son of God, but one who came after to testify to Christ crucified. If we hold Paul's words (human words, though divinely inspired) with the same authority as the words of Jesus (Son of God), we put Paul on the same plane as God, which, as I understand, would be idolatry and thus breaking the First Commandment, as well and Jesus' Greatest Commandment.
jlh2081 11 months ago
@jlh2081 What part of "Whoever hears you hears Me" is unclear? I don't understand. I forgive sins by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ. Nobody can say, "Your forgiveness isn't as good as Jesus'". That would false (Reformed) doctrine. Paul was an apostle by the will of Jesus Christ. God spoke through him as through Moses. Once again, should we disagree with Paul, who is an apostle of God? If you don't listen to him, you're not listening to Jesus. That is breaking the 3rd commandment.
gratiasola 11 months ago
@gratiasola That's pretty arrogant of you, to know the will of God... I believe God can call whomever God chooses. Why is it such a threat to you to think that a woman can be a pastor? Seriously. What is it about being a male that makes one worthy of sharing the good news?
mandyho13 11 months ago
@mandyho13 lol. Arrogant to know that what God says is true? That adultery, stealing, murder, etc are against God's will? Seriously. Why make it personal by saying that women pastors are a threat to me? Why is God's word such a threat to you? Why be filled with animosity against God's will revealed in the Scriptures? Who taught you to reject Paul's words? Jesus?the one who sent Paul and gave him his authority? Stop the hate! Love! Stop the discrimination against Paul!
gratiasola 11 months ago 3
@gratiasola Well since you know the will of God, tell me, why is it that God does not want women to be pastors? I am not threatened by God's word... I'm just not a fool to take everything at face value and read the bible in black and white rather than leaving room for interpretation and consideration of why something may be written as it is.
mandyho13 11 months ago
@mandyho13 Mandy, that's quite beside the point. I could recite "The Female of the Species" by Rudyard Kipling, which might give some interesting answers from Natural Law, but that wouldn't be the answer. The point is that God says so. I can rely on Him. Who am I to question him? May I think He is a fool for forbidding women to teach or usurp authority over men in the churches? What gives me the right to reject His apostle? Is your interpretation to reject Paul's authority on this matter?
gratiasola 11 months ago 2
@gratiasola You are a child of God. That is who you are to question. I am not questioning God, but I am questioning Paul. And I don't care how you turn it or spin it, Paul is NOT God.
mandyho13 11 months ago
@mandyho13 Paul speaks God's word. That's how Paul spins it, Mandy. For the same reason that you believe Matthew, Mark, Luke and John you believe Paul. "Whoever hears you hears Me." You are questioning God's apostle. What gives you the right to do that? Could it be that you have a problem with authority? This is not good, Mandy. Christians shouldn't claim that they can reject the authority of an angel (messenger) of God.
gratiasola 11 months ago
@gratiasola So we shouldn't question the texts that speak in favor of slavery? If we shouldn't question scripture, why did it need to be edited by men? Why is every last little ounce that was "inspired by God" not in the bible?
mandyho13 11 months ago
@mandyho13 "In favor of slavery?" You gotta show me this. The Scripture can't be broken. Jesus said that about the Old Testament after many very minor editions. Let's believe Jesus! He's so right on! We can rely on God's Word! It won't deceive us! If God gave it with His Spirit, then we didn't receive something that can change, can err, can be wrong. God doesn't lie. He speaks to us the truth.
gratiasola 11 months ago 2
@gratiasola No, God does not lie, but men (humankind) do. And the Word was put in the hands of men, and therefore, it is our right and duty to discern what is truth. It is not as clear cut and dry and you would like it to be. Things were written for a reason, addressing certain situations that were being faced at the time. I seek the truth in His Word, but I don't take it for granted that it is in black in white. Sometimes its between the lines.
mandyho13 11 months ago
@gratiasola and yet somehow I think God will forgive my "heinous sin" of trying to spread of Good News of Jesus Christ as a female pastor(heavy dose of sarcasm in the former sentence, in case you were wondering)..in fact didn't Jesus have something to say to his disciples when they got all onry about "non disciples" casting out demons and healing in his name...
cmbmsu 11 months ago
@cmbmsu . You practice this sacrilege in open defiance of the Word of God. It is rebellion against your Lord. You have no call to preach in Christ's name, you have the call to be a priest, confessing Christ's name in whatever vocation God puts you in. You should fear God's anger since He does not take it lightly when His Word is ignored. "The Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain." "God threatens to punish all who break these commandments," therefore what should we do?
gratiasola 11 months ago
@gratiasola then I guess all that is left for me is to beg for God's mercy, which is vast and limitless and have faith that Jesus death for the forgiveness of sin was not in vain.
cmbmsu 11 months ago
@cmbmsu What was it that Jesus said to the woman? "Go and sin no more." How can you teach others to trust in God's grace to reform their lives when you refuse to reform your behavior according to the Word of God? This is wrong on so many levels.
gratiasola 11 months ago 2
@gratiasola If I recall correctly, before Jesus tells her to "go and sin no more," we should read the entirety of the story. Jesus also tells all her accusers ‘Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.' When all of her accusers walked away (they didn't dare pick up a stone) he also told this to the woman: ‘Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?’ 11She said, ‘No one, sir.’* And Jesus said, ‘Neither do I condemn you.'
jlh2081 11 months ago
@jlh2081 Totally, I agree! This means we should never tell anybody that he has sinned, but then we should tell him to go and sin no more... (pardon my poor attempt at sarcasm). I apologize if my salt has too much flavor. Isn't God a loving God to give to His church the pastoral office! Why can't we accept a gift from God as He gives it, instead of doubting His apostle and relying more on Marxist distinctions of class warfare than Biblical distinctions on the order of creation?
gratiasola 11 months ago
@gratiasola I am signing off. But before I do, I leave you with this. I believe, as you say you do, that God in Jesus has died for me and my sinfulness, as well as for you and your sinfulness. God sent God's only Son for all creation, so that sin and death will not have the final say over us.
jlh2081 11 months ago
@gratiasola Knowing I have received this gift, not by my own doing, but by the boundless grace and mercy of God, I life my life, each and every day, as a beloved and blessed child of God, living out my faith and striving to be EXACTLY who God created me to be. And God has called me to be a daughter, sister, wife, friend, Christ-follower, Pastor. Thanks be to God.
jlh2081 11 months ago 17
@jlh2081 Amen!
mandyho13 11 months ago
@jlh2081 Thanks be to God. Amen
cmbmsu 11 months ago
@jlh2081 You can use masculine pronouns, you know! God does! And you can confess that before men. But you're not allowed to preach it, sister.God says no.That's the Law.Live out your faith by listening to your Lord. God does not call you to be a pastor. You can't thank God for doing something He didn't do. Are you a Christian? Then be exactly that! You can listen to your Lord, get out of the pulpit, give back the stoles, step away from the altar, and rejoice that God made you a woman! ; )
gratiasola 11 months ago
@gratiasola Indeed the Church and the One who called her have equipped and ordained her to preach it. Centuries of patriarchal proof texting have tried to say otherwise, but the Holy Spirit is stronger than any mysogynist, which ultimately is what this conversation is about, You may love God, but you hate women, and that is something you will need to search deeply within yourself to resolve.
lmlcpastor 11 months ago
@lmlcpastor LOL. Hate women? You will rarely meet a man who loves women more! "Centuries of Patriarchal proof-texting?" Ma'am or Sir, what's wrong with Paul? What's wrong with believing your Lord's apostle? The real issue is whether one thinks it's permissible to reject Christ's apostle. Whoever rejects him rejects Him who sent Him. The issue is the Bible's and our Lord's authority.
By the way, maybe our mother Sarah was a patriarchal proof-texter. She did call her husband "lord."
gratiasola 11 months ago 2
@gratiasola My comment about your mysogynicstic tendencies were based on the way I was "observing" your treatment of the women on this thread. It has been my experience that those minds that hate an entire group (Anti-semites, Anti-Christians, Homophobics, Racists) will often say in rebuttal "But no! Some of my best friends are....jews, Christians, gay, black, women.... So, if I am off mark, my apologies, if not, again, perhaps some heart searching.
lmlcpastor 11 months ago
@lmlc So what exactly are my misogynistic tendencies? Could you make your judgments a little clearer? What have I done or said that indicates that I hate women? This is a serious accusation! I hold to the doctrine of Paul, the apostle whom the Son of God, Jesus Christ, sent. He says that women should be silent in the churches and that women should not teach or usurp authority over a man. This is what has guided my very loving attitude toward women who mistakenly think that they are pastors.
gratiasola 11 months ago
@gratiasola They are not mistaken. They are pastors, whether you approve or not. So if women are to be silent in church, why is it that you allow them to teach Sunday School? Why do you contradict the doctrine of Paul????
mandyho13 11 months ago
@mandyho13 It isn't a matter of whether or not human beings approve. Just because you claim they are Pastors does not mean that God views them as such. The very fact that they are openly defying Scripture, the Word, suggests that they are in opposition to God on the matter. As for why women are allowed to speak and teach in the Church is a matter of understanding the context which Paul speaks. Paul spoke concerning order in the church. It does not change the requirements for a Pastor.
tbirdpunk 11 months ago
@gratiasola The words you speak are hurtful and offensive; not just the words you speak to me, a sister in Christ, but to all who have entered into discussion here. But mostly, my heart is sad. You may call that a victory for your cause, that is fine. But I know who God made me. In my baptism I was given the gift of the Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit Jesus gave to each of his disciples. And that Holy Spirit, God's Spirit, leads me to preach God's word.
jlh2081 11 months ago
@jlh2081 The Law kills. You, more than others, should know this. It doesn't make you happy. It is God's law that you are not a pastor. I have no malice against you. Every Christian is made a priest in baptism, but baptism isn't ordination. Baptism doesn't entitle one to exercise authority over a congregation. This is a variation of the Anabaptist error, which you should also reject. But instead of addressing my arguments you complain that my words are hurtful. What have I said that is wrong?
gratiasola 11 months ago
@gratiasola You make a valid point, as well. Perhaps I will step out of the pulpit, give away my stoles. They don't make me a pastor. God does. And I will rejoice in the God who created me. I will rejoice in the God who calls me, loves me, equips me each and every day to be a Minister of Word and Sacrament.
jlh2081 11 months ago
@jlh2081 How can God make you a pastor when He forbids women to teach in the Church? Do you teach that your modern opinions should be obeyed rather than the word of Christ's apostle Paul? How can you exalt yourself above Jesus' apostle and then claim to be Jesus' minister? Please explain this to me. Meaning no hurt at all - gratiasola
gratiasola 11 months ago
@jlh2081 according to Scripture, He hasn't... Either the Bible is wrong or you are.
jdswiney 10 months ago
@jlh2081 In fact, the Lord has not called you to the office of Pastor because His word clearly denies you that office as it denies all women the authoritative offices of elder-shepherd or deacon.
Scripture is the standard, not your subjective feelings of fairness and personal desires
AtlantiansAnAlteran 9 months ago 10
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@jlh2081 In fact, the Lord has not called you to the office of Pastor because His word clearly denies you that office as it denies all women the authoritative offices of elder-shepherd.
Scripture is the standard, not your subjective feelings of fairness and personal desires
AtlantiansAnAlteran 9 months ago
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@jlh2081 In fact, the Lord has not called you to the office of Pastor because His word clearly denies you that office as it denies all women the authoritative offices of elder-shepherd.
Scripture is the standard, not your subjective feelings of fairness and personal desires
AtlantiansAnAlteran 9 months ago
@jlh2081 In fact, the Lord has not called you to the office of Pastor because His word clearly denies you that office as it denies all women the authoritative offices of elder-shepherd.
Scripture is the standard, not your subjective feelings of fairness and personal desires
AtlantiansAnAlteran 9 months ago
@gratiasola Guess you will be fearing too since Jesus said "Judge not lest ye be judged." You say stop the hate one moment, and then you spew this vile hatred.
mandyho13 11 months ago
@mandyho13 lol. vile hatred? wow. WRONG interpretation! I love you, Mandy! Jesus loves you too. He just doesn't want women to be pastors. His Word and will are clear, even when the world's and ours aren't. We can rely on the Word of God! This is the most wonderful treasure a Christians has and something Lutherans especially teach with all its power!
gratiasola 11 months ago
@gratiasola Yes, the Word of God is a wonderful treasure and needs to be treated as such. That's why God calls us to read AND discern the word. You may think the bible is clear in women not wanting to be pastors, but I don't see it that way along with MANY other Christians. I would rather err on the side of love and beg forgiveness.
mandyho13 11 months ago
@mandyho13 . It's not loving to question the authority of Paul. To tell Christians that Paul's Word is less divine than Jesus' is to call into question everything that Paul says, including that forgiveness that we Lutherans know more clearly than any other denomination. You wouldn't be erring on the side of love, you would be erring on the side of the world, Mandy. Love is defined by the law of God. Love does no harm to the neighbor. Teaching people to doubt Paul's word harms our neighbor.
gratiasola 11 months ago
It's quite clear to me that those who have been posting lately don't understand the position of those who oppose women's ordination. I'm more than happy to have a straw-man free conversation with anyone who's interested. But I find the comment thread here to be unsuitable for such a discussion. Anyone who so desires, shoot me an email at pastorfiene@gmail.com.
TheLutheranSatire 11 months ago 5
@TheLutheranSatire You are right, I don't understand, and I never will. I frankly don't ever care to. As an seminary educated, called and currently serving a wonderful congregation female ELCA pastor, I resent the fact that the church is one of the few places still allowed to practice discrimination based on gender, orientation, socio economic status and belief. Thanks for reminding me of what I hope the ELCA never bcomes
cmbmsu 11 months ago
@TheLutheranSatire As a seminary educated, M.Div holding, ordained female pastor currently serving in the ELCA, I second cmbmsu's opinion. I'm thankful for the churches that welcome ALL God's children to teach and preach, serve and minister, live and love, exactly how God created them to be.
jlh2081 11 months ago
@TheLutheranSatire While I appreciate your willingness to discuss this, I'm going to have to agree to disagree. Actually, to me, this video serves more as reasons why to be in the ELCA.
mandyho13 11 months ago
once (more like 50 times) i visited a congregation where the pastor, he of great import, failed miserably in mumbling anything even resembling the gospel.
then, another time, i visited a congregation and heard a woman proclaim the gospel of the resurrected, living christ with integrity, honesty and relevance.
i really wish god would have given her a penis so i could feel better about whether the bible supports such action.
/actuallutheransarcasm
dirty6 11 months ago
I find it disturbing that there seems to be more authority placed upon Paul than on Jesus himself. To reiterate a point made by another, Jesus never once said that women were unworthy to serve as priest or pastor. I am also reminded that the very first preachers of the resurrection were, in fact women...women who had the courage to go to the tomb in the first place, the women who had the courage to tell those disciples IN HIDING exactly what Jesus would have them do.
jlh2081 11 months ago
@mandyho13
I would never demean women so much as to say that they have no value unless they can serve in the pastoral office.
chazlehmann 11 months ago
@chazlehmann No, of course not. But do you truly believe women do not have a right to serve as a church leader? As pastor? Women were clearly important to Jesus and were amongst his "inner circle" in a time when that would be unaccepted. Women have the ability and right to serve as church leaders as much as men do.
mandyho13 11 months ago
YA, I think I'll take my open arms, loving others as they are, ELCA Lutherans anyday. You can keep your repression of women and unacceptance of others to yourself.
mandyho13 11 months ago
@mandyho13
Mandy, would you say God was repressing the other 11 tribes of Israel when he established that only the Levites would serve as priests?
TheLutheranSatire 11 months ago
@TheLutheranSatire I think that question has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm sorry that you feel that women should not be ordained, because Jesus clearly felt women were just as important and vital to ministry as men. Who did he first show himself to after he rose from the dead? Oh, that's right... Women. Besides, God did not establish the "rules" of who should and should not be leaders of the church, men on this earth did that.
mandyho13 11 months ago
@mandyho13
The point about the OT priesthood is that God ordered that only the Levites were to be priests, which left out the other 11 tribes. In the same way, I'm arguing, based on 1st Timothy 2, 1 Corinthians 14 and Ephesians 5, that God has ordered that only qualified men are to serve as pastors. So if it wasn't discrimination in the OT, why does it suddenly becomes discrimination in the NT?
TheLutheranSatire 11 months ago
@TheLutheranSatire There are A LOT of things that happen in the OT that totally get thrown out in the NT. Show me where Jesus says only qualified men are to serve as pastors. If it was that important, don't you think Jesus would've said only men are to be pastors?
mandyho13 11 months ago
@mandyho13
The Words of Christ, through the mouth of His apostle Paul, explicitly state in 1 Timothy 2 that women are not to teach or have authority over men and, in 1 Timothy 3, that overseers (pastors) are to be men who are above reproach, able to teach, and not given to a number of vices.
TheLutheranSatire 11 months ago
@TheLutheranSatire No, those are the words of Paul, NOT Christ. Again, show me where JESUS speaks out against women in leadership.
mandyho13 11 months ago
@mandyho13
1. Jesus' actions speak clear enough. When it came to selecting the 12, He selected all men. Furthermore, He doesn't specifically address women acting as priests/pastors for the same reason He doesn't specifically address auto insurance fraud. Neither of those things are happening among the Jews. But women acting as priests does happen among the gentiles. That's why Paul specifically addresses it.
TheLutheranSatire 11 months ago
@mandyho13
2. Jesus Himself chose Paul to be an apostle and to speak with His authority. I find it hard to believe that the Son of God who knows all things would pick an apostle who is going to go rogue and try to pass off as his own personal opinions the will of God Almighty.
3. Had Paul been binding the Church to a practice that was contrary to God's will, the other apostles would have rebuked him, as Paul did to Peter. That didn't happen.
TheLutheranSatire 11 months ago 2
@TheLutheranSatire Yet Paul is still just a man and is bound to sin like the rest of us. His words were not infallible.
mandyho13 11 months ago
@mandyho13 "[Paul's] words were not infallible." There's the rub. You deny that Paul spoke by God's authority and you thus deny the Holy Scriptures and God's authority. This is a horrible sin and has led your churches to accept all manner of wickedness. Professing to be wise you have become fools and can't even tell the difference between right and wrong anymore while you exult in a love that covers sin not with the blood of Christ, but the license of Sodom. Are we wrong to believe Paul?
gratiasola 11 months ago
@gratiasola Whoa... First of all, get off your high horse. Secondly, I am merely saying its possible that this was not God's intention. Actually, strike that. I firmly believe it was not God's intention for women to be "slient" as Paul says. Are you wrong to believe Paul? No. But you are wrong to think that this small verse is the basis of excluding women in ministry.
mandyho13 11 months ago
@mandyho13
4. If you can't trust the words of Paul in once place, you can't trust them anywhere else. So throwing out 1 Timothy 2 means you must also throw out our clearest texts on justification, sanctification, the substitutionary atonement, the resurrection of the body, baptism, the Lord's Supper, Christian love, etc...As well as the entire Gospels of Mark and Luke, as they both received their instruction through Paul.
TheLutheranSatire 11 months ago 4
@TheLutheranSatire Okay...but if we take 1 Tim to it's end...then why do we have female sunday school teachers? Perhaps if we have female sunday school teachers, we should only have them teach classes of girls? We wouldn't want a female teacher to have any authority over anyone of "value" after all...and please...if we are going to talk about overseers(pastors) being above reproach and not given to a number of vices somehow chauvinism and outright discrimination seem to be problems.
cmbmsu 11 months ago
@cmbmsu
Sunday School teachers teach children. And, to echo my buddy Chaz, if you think that women only have value to the church if they're serving as pastors, I think that's about as chauvinistic of a position as one can take on the issue.
TheLutheranSatire 11 months ago
So female sunday school teachers can warp the minds of innocent impressionable children but can't study, interpret and then preach the Word of God to grown men(and women, if they are even allowed in the sanctuary) And just so we are crystal clear....I think women and men can do whatever they feel a call to for a vocation. It is not my role or right to limit God's call to preach and teach on the basis of gender
cmbmsu 11 months ago
@TheLutheranSatire 1 Timothy is not considered to have been written by Paul, but is rather attributed to him. Second, as a Lutheran, you know that women ARE to have authority over men as mothers, as ordered in the fourth commandment. Third, as a Lutheran, you know that there is no one who is above reproach. Oops, forgot that this forum isn't helpful to you. Shutting up now.
GestasLeftcross 11 months ago
@GestasLeftcross Um...wow that's a new one. Mothers are in charge based on the 4th commandment? Yikes...it says honor your Father and your Mother...and why is Father first? You've given a new interpretation and forcing it on the text!
hahnbd 11 months ago
@hahnbd Please refer to the Large Catechism in the Book of Concord, under the Fourth Commandment. I will quote from the Wengert/Kolb translation: "God has given this walk of life, fatherhood and motherhood, a special position of honor, higher than that of any other walk of life under it. Not only has he commanded us to love parents but to honor them... he distinguishes father and mother above all other persons on earth, and places them next to himself." (page 400, paragraph 105)
GestasLeftcross 11 months ago
@hahnbd See also the LC 405.141: "... we must mention the sort of obedience due to superiors, persons whose duty it is to command and to govern. For all other authority is derived and developed out of the authority of parents." Women has authority over men in motherhood; if you have a mother, she has authority over you (and all men have mothers). I assume I simply didn't make my point clear.
GestasLeftcross 11 months ago
@hahnbd Additionally, assuming you are a Christian, I strongly suggest you consider what "new interpretation" means, unless you reject the letters of Paul, who clearly reinterpreted the entirety of Scripture in his effort to explain the salvation of God in Jesus despite the crucifixion. Simply shouting that something is a new interpretation actually isn't a very good argument in the Christian context. More effective is the question, does this interpretation further love of God and neighbor?
GestasLeftcross 11 months ago
@GestasLeftcross Your original post stated, "Second, as a Lutheran, you know that women ARE to have authority over men as mothers, as ordered in the fourth commandment." Mothers do not have authority over Fathers. That was my point. Now that you explain yourself better, I see you are talking about a woman's authority over boys and girls. It is a clear stretch on your part to use this example to go over and against God's command to Eve. Clearly, Eve raised boys too.
hahnbd 11 months ago
@hahnbd Are you now saying that women can have authority over their sons only until they are grown? This does not mesh with Luther's explanation. I will ignore your comment about Adam and Eve for the moment, since it only applies to husbands, and the statement I am interested in refuting is "women are not to teach or have authority over men." This concept is clearly counter to Luther's interpretation of authority, held by men and women, as outlined in the fourth commandment.
GestasLeftcross 11 months ago
@GestasLeftcross You erroneously apply the 4th commandment over and against the authority placed on Adam which St. Paul refers to in the new testament. You are guilty of chronocentrism...applying our context to Luther, the confessions, and to the scriptures. If you can't see this, then there's nothing I can do for you.
hahnbd 11 months ago
@hahnbd First: what part of what Paul writes are you referring to? Because I can simply claim that he said something, too. Secondly: what authority placed on Adam? You haven't identified this. You're assuming a lot in your interpretation. Thirdly: chronocentrism is that OUR time is the lens through which to view all of Scripture. The exact opposite of this is to view Scripture as historically incarnate, which is what I prefer.
GestasLeftcross 11 months ago
@hahnbd Fourth: If you know anything about Luther's writings, you would see (as I outlined above) that for him all human authority is rooted in that 4th commandment. If you are not Lutheran, we can have that conversation, but otherwise you're going to have to deal with the Book of Concord at some point. Fifth: in what way was I applying "our context to Luther"? I reported what Luther said, how he exegeted the commandments. That's just using historical documents, which you are doing as well.
GestasLeftcross 11 months ago
@hahnbd Sixth: I posit to you that the curse placed on Adam and Eve were descriptive, not commandments. Seventh: I posit to you that if Scripture can be quoted to support slavery, you need a better basis than a passage from Timothy to demonstrate reasons women should not hold authority over men. Eighth: If you think women should not hold authority over men, you need to leave this country, because women hold public office here. If that is different, why?
GestasLeftcross 11 months ago